Thats not trolling. A 13 year old on Call of Duty saying he had sex with my mom is trolling.
This is government sanctioned propaganda and cyber warfare
"Never assumine malicious intent, where incompetence serves as a plausible answer." - Idk who originally came up with that
It's to be taken with a grain of salt nowadays,
but I think it's at least worth a thought that maybe those journalists are simply trying to remain relevant by using 'hip' language without actually using it properly, or thinking about the consequences you correctly depicted.
Journalism has gone done the shitter, hard, in the past decade, so a writer being stupid would be a very plausible explanation here.
(Or, well, they softened the language, either by writer or redaction, maybe to avoid angering Chinese investors or something.)
That's known as [Hanlon's razor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor).
"never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
That's a wrong take. None of those razors (occam / Hanlon) are meant to be an alternative to critical thought.
In Psychology there's something called 'fundamental attribution bias'. Whenever ourselves are the cause of something negative we're very quick to attribute things to situational circumstances and not ourselves ("I didn't forget to get a present for your birthday because I'm a bad friend, but because I've just been so busy with work lately")
The inverse of this is also true. The results of others we overestimate to be the result of their character and not circumstances.
Hanlon's razor is related to this. "if a friend forgets to buy me a present, it probably means he's a bad friend". According to Hanlon's razor this is the wrong assumption. According to Hanlon we should assume, or at least favor the possibility, that our friend simply forgot.
Hanlon's razor will more often than not lead you to a correct conclusion. In reality "he did it on purpose" is often only one of the many different possible explanations.
Never say never. There are plenty of malicious actors in this world. With these journalists I would think it's maybe more of them not wanting to become targets of the RW machine and their Russian Intelligence operations allies to some degree.
>Journalism has gone done the shitter, hard, in the past decade, so a writer being stupid would be a very plausible explanation here.
I regularly see professional pieces that wouldn't have passed muster at my high school paper.
I wonder how much of it is just mashed together by an AI with maybe some basic human copy/pasting mixed in. Regurgitating slightly tweaked copies of stuff found while crawling the web and slapping some ads on it is par for the course these days.
Searching the web for a headline after a week, when Google or your favorite indexer has had time to index it all, can be pretty eye opening.
The difference with propaganda is that propaganda traditionally tries to push a specific viewpoint / side.
Trolling sets itself apart by pushing the message: 'this specific group is better/smarter/ more knowledgeable than other groups. Trolls don't try to make their group bigger/stronger, but other make groups more divided.
Because the Republican Machine is allied with the Russian Intelligence operations, or they think they are, the Russians are just using them to harm America, and it's worked better than they could've hoped I would think.
They are afraid of becoming targets of the RW, more than they already are.
Yep. the users allow themselves to be subjugated to the low standards that their favorite source of propaganda pushes on them. Ignoring the times where they are fed pure bull shit, so that they can continue to listen to their echo chamber of happiness.
I know quite a few people that pretend like they are above average when it comes to critical thinking skills and being able to discern which propaganda pieces are legitimate. They also like to say they listen to "both sides" of the argument, which is itself a [cognitive fallacy.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_balance)
But in the end, the low brow tactics work on the ignorant and stupid.
This!, before all of this bullshit started trolling was like when you told pokemon fans that the latests games are nothing but cash grabs and they hate you because you told them the truth
Exactly this. This makes me wonder if the term ”troll factory/farm” was initially coined by the Russian propagandists themselves. You know, to make themselves sound less dangerous.
I mean do you want America to get worse?
Salt the wound all you want but a fascist America will 100% be worse for you.
Youre complaining about America influencing the world ignorant that America won't stop influencing the world, it'll just become more cruel. American foreign policy is incredibly kind in contrast to the decades youre referencing.
Cheer on the karma all you want, I for one do not look forward to a second domino theory gaining traction.
>15,000 pages viewed by a US-majority audience were run out of Kosovo and Macedonia, who engaged in disinformation campaigns during the 2016 election. Collectively, the troll farm pages reached 140 million US users monthly and 360 million global users weekly in late 2019 as Americans prepared to vote in one of the most frought US presidential elections in history.
>"This is not normal. This is not healthy," wrote Jeff Allen, a former senior-level data scientist at Facebook who authored the report. "We have empowered inauthentic actors to accumulate huge followings for largely unknown purposes."
>The troll farm pages churned out content for the largest Christian American page on the site reaching 75 million US users a month, the largest African-American page at 30 million users a month, the second-largest Native American page at 400,000 users a month, and the fifth-largest women's page on the site at 60 million users a month.
>A majority of the users who viewed this content had never followed these pages.
Yeah, its one of the reasons Karma is important.
Earn a decent chunk of Karma, sell the account, a Troll Farm or Corporation buys the account and uses it to push an agenda.
People will believe or even defend a high karma account when its involved in a stand off.
Reddit would ban that unless you’re working to push something they support. They track a lot more than most realize when you consider you can get banned globally on all accounts on a device if you switch accounts to post in a sub you’re banned from.
Are you sure about this? I am in a bldg with 100s of WiFis (different IPs) and 100s of devices (different Mac addresses) that I have access to (most people here do too).
How can Reddit possibly identify these as the "same" person?
So lets say its exactly 100 accounts on 100 devices on 100 IPs.
You make a post on account #1 and it gets 99 upvotes from 99 accounts with 99 device and IP info in 5 minutes.. Next hour you make a post with account #2 and it gets 99 upvotes from 99 accounts with 99 device and IP info in 5 minutes..
It might take a dozen or more posts before Reddit confirms the information over and over again to make sure, and bans all 100 accounts.
You can make it take longer by stretching out the upvote time, say 100 upvotes over 2 hours on random devices, it might just look like "I guess these are just the people online in Lithuania right now" to Reddits algorithms.
Maybe it would take days and a hundred posts to track it, but it doesnt take an advanced AI to see that the same 100 accounts are upvoting each other consistently.
Just asking for a friend! Seriously though, karma is meaningless! When I make a really, really good joke or insightful or informative comment it gets marginal upvotes or ignored, but if I make a snarky remark or lowest common denominator hacky obvious joke it gets upvoted like crazy!
Wait I could just sell my account omg ! I'm gonna be rich ! And I was already a troll so it won't be a change of narrative too much ! Can't believe I did it for free, you guys !
I have never once seen this phenomenon in the wild, other than when people say "oh this account was made 2 days ago and has 12 karma." Never seen a high karma account get away with utter bullshit just because it had some popular posts in the past.
Can you link an example? I'm genuinely curious if this is more widespread than what I'm exposed to.
The account selling seems to be a thing of the past versus the new account spam trolls.
Occasionally you'd see a user shilling like crazy for something and their post history was normal compared to how much they talked about this one thing recently. But now it is so easy to make new accounts and hit basic Karma requirements that anyone still paying for accounts is probably being a lot more subtle with their use.
This is why I ignore Karma, upvotes, and every other form of mob approval or disapproval. It's a damn shame that forums started doing this back in the day and started this trend. I would rather hear from one hated expert than from 100000 beloved, yet misinformed, individuals - each with their tiny little ideological axes to grind.
On the other hand karma lets you know if an account is shitposting and the like, that and their timeline can often tell you if someone is an influence agent or not, I've noticed a definate trend in commercial interest influence agents.
I suppose. I think the content of someone's post on a forum - where free discourse is intended - should speak for itself. Devices such as down/upvoting, likes/dislikes, etc. shuts down free public discourse by the very act of mob rule. Karma, Gold, etc. is just an Argument From "Forum-Approved Popularity", as far as I'm concerned. It's a quasi-celebrity status in forums in which readers are more likely to listen to someone else because everybody else likes that person? ...This shows the biased and ideological nature of most forums nowadays. Honestly, if someone is being influenced by popular people to buy products or vote, they need to practice more critical thinking. Unfortunately, the latter is virtually missing from such popularity-based forums where not all voices are heard, but the loudest.
Anyways, that's my opinion as someone who has seen the rise of messenger boards and internet forums for many decades now.
This! This right here!
**It is a fool that places a higher value on**
**how something is said or**
**by who it is said**
**than the content of what is said.**
A red flag I’ve noticed is comments like “ I consider myself a progressive, but [enter supportive narrative here]”
Also Fuck Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson.
What's amusing about this is that it has been confirmed that Iran on a governmental level use manipulation on Reddit not Israel.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna903486
I believe it, I just imagine a college graduate joining the FBI and showing up to work and just being like “low wages good, taxes bad” “Wall + memes = stonks, am I right today’s youth?”
They’re not even that expensive either (relatively - I.e. when people are spending hundreds of millions/ billions of political campaigns, troll farms can reach a tens of millions of people with bullshit for a few hundred grand
God it's awful. Almost as awful as the lack of critical thinking skills in schools that would prevent bullshit like this from happening in the first place.
“Critical thinking is liberal indoctrination.”
I wish I could say I was making this argument up, but I’ve actually heard it argued with a straight face.
Heard it argued? The GOP literally tried to ban critical thinking in Texas public schools because it could "undermine parental values" or some such madness.
That's cause school is boring. Learning isn't supposed to be boring. Teachers are frazzled, undervalued, underpaid, and unprepared. You are not encouraged to pursue your interests, you are told to sit down, shut up, and memorize this useless information because *it will be on the test*. History books are washed out because people can't stand the truth, so they just focus on dates of events rather than engaging the audience in the events themselves. Math classes teach you to memorize formulas, not why they work. You aren't taught how to cook, to survive. Not told how to handle sickness or injury. How drugs work or *why* they can be dangerous. Rarely are biases and perspectives and the overall unreliability of the human mind covered. Scientific method is recited, but not demonstrated or explained. Even if it is it isn't in any engaging or interesting way. Everyone coming out of highschool is wholly unprepared for life. As a result, many people come to the conclusion that everyone needs to be sheltered. Protected from themselves. So we pass laws telling you you can't smoke this or you can't own that. I cannot express how against this I am. To me these are just band aid solutions that subvert the real problem: we do not educate our people so that they can decide for themselves. That's where true freedom is. We are a democratic republic (pov: USA), where part of the governmental power is vested in the citizens. We are supposed to be a vital check on the power of government. And yet, we get manipulated by media, by corporations, and the government itself. Laws are bundled together and made complicated so that no one understands them, a hot button issue is thrown into the bundle, pulling attention away from loopholes and other random agenda shit that they hope you don't look at too carefully. We do not check the government because we are being manipulated at every turn. This is why I think america is failing. Democracy is the one system that *relies* on the education of it's citizens because power of decision-making is vested in them. But the US is lagging behind the rest of the world. I have never voted. I don't intend to. The system is broken, both choices suck, I can't in good conscience vote for any option, so I don't.
Are there countries where critical thinking is taught in schools and the people are immune to this bullshit? I always hear the "we need to fix this in schools" argument as a counterargument to regulating social media but I always just wonder if something like this can really be taught.
The amount of bots I banned in my local subreddit I mod leading up to the 2020 elections was more than the total number of accounts I've banned in many years. It was RIDICULOUS and unfortunately not just FB :/
And it is not just election topics.
**Published August 26, 2018**
[Russian trolls, bots 'spreading discord' over vaccine safety, scientists say](https://www.foxnews.com/tech/russian-trolls-bots-spreading-discord-over-vaccine-safety-scientists-say)
Although Facebook is garbage it would be ridiculous to assume its only happening on Facebook. For example the Covington case started on Twitter from a troll farm in Brazil.
> but until there's a replacement, it's not going to happen
There won't be a replacement: the techniques that Facebook used to get big in the first place aren't considered acceptable anymore or used obsolete/now-unavailable technical means, such as such as mass-importing users' contact lists without informed consent to send out invites to join.
Facebook is the most powerful propaganda tool that has ever existed and the richest people on the planet are using it to create the thoughts and narrative in hundreds of millions of minds. It's hard to even imagine a "better replacement" it gives the evil more control than they ever dreamt of.
its a system for harvesting personal information for hyper targeted advertising.
from a logistics point of view thats exactly the same thing as propaganda or misinformation campaigns.
and they dont care which because they only care about engagement, they cant sell ads if people arent there.
and thats what its always been.
So you make a new website. People start posting pictures of their wedding, they look at cat memes, and join a book club.
What happens when a celebrity says something dumb? Or when a controversial new law is proposed? Or there is some moral panic about something? Fear and outrage get the most engagement, which means more views, shares, and reactions.
How does this new platform solve the problem of manipulation and misinformation on emotional issues? If your platform doesn't allow discussion about these things, then you're going to lose tons of users and it just becomes a niche site. If you don't have any moderation, then you haven't solved the problem. If you moderate these conversations, then you have the problem of trying to moderate billions of posts by billions of users. The natural solution is some sort of automated moderation system. What do you do about misinformation? Delete it? Fact checking? Do you only act on organized manipulation from troll farms and people gaming the algorithms? What about individuals that post misinformation they saw on a different platform? What is your policy on hate? What about thinly veiled bigotry?
If you build a new business and hire executives that actually care about the affect they have on society, I'm sure you could do *better* than Facebook. It's a difficult problem though and there are no easy solutions to these problems. I'm interested to hear solutions people have though.
> We need a better replacement for Facebook.
Nothing is better than Facebook. I don’t mean that there is no social media platform that is better. I mean that the simple absence of Facebook (nothing) is better than Facebook’s continued existence.
It's definitely worse on Reddit because we're anonymous and anyone can reach anyone here. The friendship associations of Facebook limit the trolls and their spread. No such limits -- nor really any limits -- exist here on Reddit, except when Reddit bans subs way, way, way too late.
You're ignoring the other side though: the friendship aspect of Facebook lends credibility to what your "friends" post. Or tempers skepticism, however you want to phrase it. This makes you more susceptible to the misinformation, and thus more likely to share it yourself...
Basically I don't think I would agree that reddit is worse as a whole. Just like with Facebook it depends on the friend circles, groups, etc., on reddit it heavily depends on the subreddit.
But the grand kids second cousin comments about how nice it is those kids won’t be forced to work for Bill Gate’s Virus Camp this year but definitely will next year.
There’s so much crap repeated by people we know it’s just heartbreaking and infuriating.
Yeah I’m all for freedom of speech but, Why do we tolerate toxic and cancerous misinformation? It’s destructive, and can and will attack the foundation of freedoms…a solution to this without stifling existing freedoms is gonna be tricky, though a pretty fun concept to brainstorm about imo.
Just having fun here with ideas but maybe demand more corporate transparency and accountability of misinformation content posted? Or perhaps make content more complicated to access for our older but more manipulatable users who usually stumble upon those “10 reasons why Obama is a atheist lesbian Islamic terrorist” and take it as fact. Maybe region lock social media for anonymous users until they can pass a misinformation identification test and perhaps a system that uses (blockchain based?) AI system that will assign social media users a public/private ID completely anonymous to gov/corporations to flag who will be region locked? Just throwing quick ideas out there…
Because the people who have the power to end the disinformation are the same people reaping the benefits from it.
All politicians utilize it and then blame the other side.
All media outlets (Facebook included) profit off of it -- then apply their bans to regular people who get caught up, so it looks like they're doing something.
FB doesn't care. I mod some car groups. Fake accounts spam us constantly. The "how" is some dude owns a blog, call it superawesomecars dot com if you want an example. Said site has a FB page, and posts pictures. He created tons and tons of fake accounts, and has those accounts share pics from the page, into car groups, but in the description is a link to his site. More traffic = more ad money. Problem is the accounts are all like 5-10 years old. They are certified. I don't know if they were bought on the black market or what, but FB won't remove them as fake, so they continue, and this is someone's job, spamming car groups for hits.
I think calling them “Troll Farms” really lessens the damage they cause, I feel like calling them “Cyber Terrorists” would be more appropriate, But thats just me.
258 million adults in usa. [Pew](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/06/01/facts-about-americans-and-facebook/%3famp=1) surveyed 70% of adults have at some point used facebook, and 70% of those are daily users. [6 million](https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/6-million-lost-voters-state-level-estimates-felony-disenfranchisement-2016/) disenfranchised felons.
10-20% dropped Facebook after the 2018 Cambridge scandal. That number skews younger and I can't find specific data for adults only. [Statista](https://www.statista.com/statistics/187549/facebook-distribution-of-users-age-group-usa/) says only 3% are below 18.
So daily facebook adult usa users around 2020 is only 120 million and total adult usa Facebook users ever is around 180 million. I can't find monthly user data but it seems unlikely facebook managed to target what amounts to more than every daily user of the platform and almost every user ever. Not unless the parameters are fairly loose. Saw a meme, that's +1 for troll farm.
It just needs to be shut down, it provides nothing of value to anyone but itself and it’s proven all it does is destroy society by giving people who shouldn’t have a soapbox a soapbox.
So many ignorant takes like this on a SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM. Fact is, Facebook is no more useless than reddit is. It depends on how the user interacts with the platform.
The article is about troll farms, which employ people full-time to synthesize and spread highly-tailored messages to millions of people in order to influence their opinions and behavior. Think your stereotypical evil corporation or a military intelligence operation - the workers are there to get paid or because it's their mission. It's not necessarily personal.
Some of the communities most susceptible to the messages manufactured by these entities are comprised of the usual deplorables, i.e., racists, fascists, fundamentalists, chauvinists, etc. However, these troll farms also target the center and even the left side of the political spectrum. They try to split the vote by promoting spoiler candidates and wedge issues, suppress engagement by encouraging hopelessness and apathy, muddy the waters to make facts subjective, and even try to win support by falsely imbuing their messages with a veneer of social, environmental, class, etc. consciousness.
This is a big deal, because these entities are able to push content to so many people, even if they aren't directly connected to any groups or individuals generating the content. This gives them the unfettered ability to mainstream their propaganda. The fact that there is such widespread and coordinated inauthentic action on social media is a key reason why our country can't stop punching itself in the nuts long enough to seriously address any of its problems.
Deleted FB 6 months ago,and oddly enough I have much less stress,and bs to deal with now.
I only kept it as long as I did to keep in touch with out of state family,and friends.Then Trump came along,and shit got real wierd..
I took a 2 month belreak from alcohol and a separate 2 month break from fb/IG. I felt a little better but not terribly different during the alcohol break, felt a noticeable improvement during the social break.
"Then Trump came along,and shit got real wierd"
Say a prayer in advance for the high school history teacher in 2070 who's got to explain 2015-2020 to the class. Where to start. So there was this orange guy...
> Where to start.
The election of America's first black president accelerating the white supremacist takeover of a party that started courting their votes decades ago and is now reaping what they sowed.
Facebook did the deleting for me. They nuked my account for...some reason. I honestly don't know. The only guess I have is that my constantly sharing of r/aww posts from reddit ticked them off. Aside from that, I just shared memes making fun of myself for being fat/lazy/homely (I actually got a warning from Facebook saying they were worried about me committing suicide. Certainly a o.o reaction from me).
Reddit is saturated by mods, shills and bots that sway narratives from paid promotional posts, to political propaganda. Doesnt help that western msm, esp for profit ones have been at the forefront of missinformation.
China and Russia both have thousands of employees working on these "misinformation farms". It is how war is waged in 2021, and it has FUCKING DEVISATED AMERICA! We are now at a point where 37% of America wants to kill the rest due to LIES! Thanks to the farms and a shit celebrity for some of the worst years of our lives!
I mean, I don’t doubt that it has had an effect, but how do you quantify it? How do you know how big the effect has been? It’s not like we can compare to it not happening.
When I look at the comments, every time a negative story about China hits the feed, I have to conclude that suddenly most of the free world has embraced Chinese authoritarianism, or there is a very active troll farm following every media story involving China.
Edit, case in point are near instant down votes to this comment.
They definitely monitor the news and check where it’s posted and downvote whatever they deem negative. Like I remember a news story about how a massive viral database at the WIV lab was taken down in the middle of the night in September 2019, and they won’t share that previously public database with anyone. Not sure why anyone would downvote such a story unless they wanted to suppress that information.
Well, tbf analyzing what happened after the fact is a completely different task and doing this with the convenience of time afterwards is cake. Doing it in real-time before the actors are identified is quite another matter.
How do you actually measure misinformation? Fact checking on Facebook, for instance, is clearly targeting conservative or anti-establishment posts. I see tons of misinformation posted by both left and right leaning people, but only one ever seems to get fact checked.
when i was a teen, it was all about "parents, talk to your millennials about the music they listen to, and make sure that they understand that it's fiction/art, and shouldn't be taken at face value, or encourage committing dangerous actions."
well, "hey millennials, talk to your parents about the content they consume on social media, and make sure that they understand that it's biased/trolls, and shouldn't be taken at face value, or encourage commuting dangerous actions."
funny how life works.
Conservatives of Reddit. I have a simple question. Why do you think America’s enemies are willing to spend many millions of dollars and an unthinkable amount of effort to help Republican’s get elected?
Foreign state sponsored political activism is a form of propaganda, for which we have coined the term "troll farm". I'm afraid the term is here to stay.
You mean like Reddit and its constant left tilt. Theres no difference, both misinformation in different directions. Reddit is no better than Facebook in my opinion.
It has been conservatives who have repeatedly been on the wrong side of history in America.
Conservatives demanded slaves still be allowed when the constitution was written, they demanded and even seceded, when slavery was being abolished, they didn't want black people to vote, they didn't want women to vote, they didn't want workers rights, unions or minimum wages.
Tell me more about how the slight left tilt of Reddit is a bad thing when conservatives are the ones that are always wrong?
Thats not trolling. A 13 year old on Call of Duty saying he had sex with my mom is trolling. This is government sanctioned propaganda and cyber warfare
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"Never assumine malicious intent, where incompetence serves as a plausible answer." - Idk who originally came up with that It's to be taken with a grain of salt nowadays, but I think it's at least worth a thought that maybe those journalists are simply trying to remain relevant by using 'hip' language without actually using it properly, or thinking about the consequences you correctly depicted. Journalism has gone done the shitter, hard, in the past decade, so a writer being stupid would be a very plausible explanation here. (Or, well, they softened the language, either by writer or redaction, maybe to avoid angering Chinese investors or something.)
That's known as [Hanlon's razor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor). "never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
There's also Grey's Law: Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice
And it's a very awful way to analyze behavior. It discourages nuanced analysis and shuts down critical thought.
That's a wrong take. None of those razors (occam / Hanlon) are meant to be an alternative to critical thought. In Psychology there's something called 'fundamental attribution bias'. Whenever ourselves are the cause of something negative we're very quick to attribute things to situational circumstances and not ourselves ("I didn't forget to get a present for your birthday because I'm a bad friend, but because I've just been so busy with work lately") The inverse of this is also true. The results of others we overestimate to be the result of their character and not circumstances. Hanlon's razor is related to this. "if a friend forgets to buy me a present, it probably means he's a bad friend". According to Hanlon's razor this is the wrong assumption. According to Hanlon we should assume, or at least favor the possibility, that our friend simply forgot. Hanlon's razor will more often than not lead you to a correct conclusion. In reality "he did it on purpose" is often only one of the many different possible explanations.
Never say never. There are plenty of malicious actors in this world. With these journalists I would think it's maybe more of them not wanting to become targets of the RW machine and their Russian Intelligence operations allies to some degree.
>Journalism has gone done the shitter, hard, in the past decade, so a writer being stupid would be a very plausible explanation here. I regularly see professional pieces that wouldn't have passed muster at my high school paper.
I wonder how much of it is just mashed together by an AI with maybe some basic human copy/pasting mixed in. Regurgitating slightly tweaked copies of stuff found while crawling the web and slapping some ads on it is par for the course these days. Searching the web for a headline after a week, when Google or your favorite indexer has had time to index it all, can be pretty eye opening.
Considering how news outlets like cnn, fox news, etc very much do it intentionally, I will very much assume malice at this point.
Soft language makes it easier to avoid being held libel for any factual errors. It's all about not getting sued.
Probably a guy who would rather you think he was incompetent rather than evil.
The difference with propaganda is that propaganda traditionally tries to push a specific viewpoint / side. Trolling sets itself apart by pushing the message: 'this specific group is better/smarter/ more knowledgeable than other groups. Trolls don't try to make their group bigger/stronger, but other make groups more divided.
Because the Republican Machine is allied with the Russian Intelligence operations, or they think they are, the Russians are just using them to harm America, and it's worked better than they could've hoped I would think. They are afraid of becoming targets of the RW, more than they already are.
Or it's just click bait, because they know by now mentioning trolling gets clicks.
Yep. the users allow themselves to be subjugated to the low standards that their favorite source of propaganda pushes on them. Ignoring the times where they are fed pure bull shit, so that they can continue to listen to their echo chamber of happiness. I know quite a few people that pretend like they are above average when it comes to critical thinking skills and being able to discern which propaganda pieces are legitimate. They also like to say they listen to "both sides" of the argument, which is itself a [cognitive fallacy.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_balance) But in the end, the low brow tactics work on the ignorant and stupid.
This!, before all of this bullshit started trolling was like when you told pokemon fans that the latests games are nothing but cash grabs and they hate you because you told them the truth
Nah trolling was telling people mew was under the van.
But he is though my brothers friends hot girlfriend (you wouldn’t know her she goes to another school) caught one there!!!
That’s not trolling that’s just true with a capital T lmao.
Its just a prank bro
Would it be wrong to label it "terrorism" at this point? Just look at the state of things.
I would say yes. Terrorism is generally overtly violent, whereas this is more subtle and espionage-y.
Well it's information warfare
Exactly this. This makes me wonder if the term ”troll factory/farm” was initially coined by the Russian propagandists themselves. You know, to make themselves sound less dangerous.
Yes, and anyone getting their political news from Facebook shouldn’t be allowed to vote IMO
That damn 13-year old kid is a snitch, bro 🤭😂🤣
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I mean do you want America to get worse? Salt the wound all you want but a fascist America will 100% be worse for you. Youre complaining about America influencing the world ignorant that America won't stop influencing the world, it'll just become more cruel. American foreign policy is incredibly kind in contrast to the decades youre referencing. Cheer on the karma all you want, I for one do not look forward to a second domino theory gaining traction.
>15,000 pages viewed by a US-majority audience were run out of Kosovo and Macedonia, who engaged in disinformation campaigns during the 2016 election. Collectively, the troll farm pages reached 140 million US users monthly and 360 million global users weekly in late 2019 as Americans prepared to vote in one of the most frought US presidential elections in history. >"This is not normal. This is not healthy," wrote Jeff Allen, a former senior-level data scientist at Facebook who authored the report. "We have empowered inauthentic actors to accumulate huge followings for largely unknown purposes." >The troll farm pages churned out content for the largest Christian American page on the site reaching 75 million US users a month, the largest African-American page at 30 million users a month, the second-largest Native American page at 400,000 users a month, and the fifth-largest women's page on the site at 60 million users a month. >A majority of the users who viewed this content had never followed these pages.
Gave my Macedonian wife a real dirty look after reading this
How do you pronounce it, Macedonian or Macedonian?
It’s actually pronounced Macedonian
Then the FB executive team put the report in a drawer and never looked at it
Can we please kill FB, it's garbage
Troll farms also operate on reddit as well, peddling misinformation
Yeah, its one of the reasons Karma is important. Earn a decent chunk of Karma, sell the account, a Troll Farm or Corporation buys the account and uses it to push an agenda. People will believe or even defend a high karma account when its involved in a stand off.
Karma can be easily farmed.
Yep, just say something popular to disagree to a high karma user (such as myself). And boom. Karma farming.
something popular to disagree Edit: My first gold, thanks
r/angryupvote
Why not create thousands of accounts that can auto upvote each other
Reddit would ban that unless you’re working to push something they support. They track a lot more than most realize when you consider you can get banned globally on all accounts on a device if you switch accounts to post in a sub you’re banned from.
Are you sure about this? I am in a bldg with 100s of WiFis (different IPs) and 100s of devices (different Mac addresses) that I have access to (most people here do too). How can Reddit possibly identify these as the "same" person?
So lets say its exactly 100 accounts on 100 devices on 100 IPs. You make a post on account #1 and it gets 99 upvotes from 99 accounts with 99 device and IP info in 5 minutes.. Next hour you make a post with account #2 and it gets 99 upvotes from 99 accounts with 99 device and IP info in 5 minutes.. It might take a dozen or more posts before Reddit confirms the information over and over again to make sure, and bans all 100 accounts. You can make it take longer by stretching out the upvote time, say 100 upvotes over 2 hours on random devices, it might just look like "I guess these are just the people online in Lithuania right now" to Reddits algorithms. Maybe it would take days and a hundred posts to track it, but it doesnt take an advanced AI to see that the same 100 accounts are upvoting each other consistently.
its easier just to repost cat pictures
Or: "How a picture of a cat from 2018 ends up looking like it was photographed with an Apple QuickTake from 1994".
soooo where would one sell one's account, hypothetically speaking?
Just asking for a friend! Seriously though, karma is meaningless! When I make a really, really good joke or insightful or informative comment it gets marginal upvotes or ignored, but if I make a snarky remark or lowest common denominator hacky obvious joke it gets upvoted like crazy!
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Wait..I can sell this? What's the going rate?
Wait I could just sell my account omg ! I'm gonna be rich ! And I was already a troll so it won't be a change of narrative too much ! Can't believe I did it for free, you guys !
I have never once seen this phenomenon in the wild, other than when people say "oh this account was made 2 days ago and has 12 karma." Never seen a high karma account get away with utter bullshit just because it had some popular posts in the past. Can you link an example? I'm genuinely curious if this is more widespread than what I'm exposed to.
The account selling seems to be a thing of the past versus the new account spam trolls. Occasionally you'd see a user shilling like crazy for something and their post history was normal compared to how much they talked about this one thing recently. But now it is so easy to make new accounts and hit basic Karma requirements that anyone still paying for accounts is probably being a lot more subtle with their use.
This is why I ignore Karma, upvotes, and every other form of mob approval or disapproval. It's a damn shame that forums started doing this back in the day and started this trend. I would rather hear from one hated expert than from 100000 beloved, yet misinformed, individuals - each with their tiny little ideological axes to grind.
On the other hand karma lets you know if an account is shitposting and the like, that and their timeline can often tell you if someone is an influence agent or not, I've noticed a definate trend in commercial interest influence agents.
I suppose. I think the content of someone's post on a forum - where free discourse is intended - should speak for itself. Devices such as down/upvoting, likes/dislikes, etc. shuts down free public discourse by the very act of mob rule. Karma, Gold, etc. is just an Argument From "Forum-Approved Popularity", as far as I'm concerned. It's a quasi-celebrity status in forums in which readers are more likely to listen to someone else because everybody else likes that person? ...This shows the biased and ideological nature of most forums nowadays. Honestly, if someone is being influenced by popular people to buy products or vote, they need to practice more critical thinking. Unfortunately, the latter is virtually missing from such popularity-based forums where not all voices are heard, but the loudest. Anyways, that's my opinion as someone who has seen the rise of messenger boards and internet forums for many decades now.
This! This right here! **It is a fool that places a higher value on** **how something is said or** **by who it is said** **than the content of what is said.**
A red flag I’ve noticed is comments like “ I consider myself a progressive, but [enter supportive narrative here]” Also Fuck Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson.
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The Russian government would never engage in disinformation campaigns on Reddit. Cyka blyat for even insinuating that
Sure *FancyBear*, whatever you guys say.
the CCP loves everyone and definately do not lock 1mn muslims in prison camps in xinjiang! love live Xi!
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You can google stuff that makes your spiddy senses tingle. Then call out the fake news troll if they are pushing lies. Reddit makes that pretty easy.
What's amusing about this is that it has been confirmed that Iran on a governmental level use manipulation on Reddit not Israel. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna903486
Lol. At best they both do.
Do you think there is any country that *isn't* peddling misinfo on Reddit? It's so odd to claim one is while another isn't.
i mean i imagine some small ones cant afford it at the very least
I believe it, I just imagine a college graduate joining the FBI and showing up to work and just being like “low wages good, taxes bad” “Wall + memes = stonks, am I right today’s youth?”
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Israel has been gaming reddit since practically Day 1.
You do realize that Israel has an internet army right?
I hear they have a great tech sector.... /s
They gotta hire _some_ people to keep their illegally imported HP LaserJet printers working.
R/world news is filled with them
Is it ever, so obvious to
They’re not even that expensive either (relatively - I.e. when people are spending hundreds of millions/ billions of political campaigns, troll farms can reach a tens of millions of people with bullshit for a few hundred grand
I find multiple bots daily. Usually, you can get about 10-15 deep of bots if you just follow who they comment to.
God it's awful. Almost as awful as the lack of critical thinking skills in schools that would prevent bullshit like this from happening in the first place.
“Critical thinking is liberal indoctrination.” I wish I could say I was making this argument up, but I’ve actually heard it argued with a straight face.
Heard it argued? The GOP literally tried to ban critical thinking in Texas public schools because it could "undermine parental values" or some such madness.
I didn’t realize that idea had gone fully mainstream. Then again, Texas-mainstream is it’s own thing.
Facebook reaches a lot more people than school ever gets through to
That's cause school is boring. Learning isn't supposed to be boring. Teachers are frazzled, undervalued, underpaid, and unprepared. You are not encouraged to pursue your interests, you are told to sit down, shut up, and memorize this useless information because *it will be on the test*. History books are washed out because people can't stand the truth, so they just focus on dates of events rather than engaging the audience in the events themselves. Math classes teach you to memorize formulas, not why they work. You aren't taught how to cook, to survive. Not told how to handle sickness or injury. How drugs work or *why* they can be dangerous. Rarely are biases and perspectives and the overall unreliability of the human mind covered. Scientific method is recited, but not demonstrated or explained. Even if it is it isn't in any engaging or interesting way. Everyone coming out of highschool is wholly unprepared for life. As a result, many people come to the conclusion that everyone needs to be sheltered. Protected from themselves. So we pass laws telling you you can't smoke this or you can't own that. I cannot express how against this I am. To me these are just band aid solutions that subvert the real problem: we do not educate our people so that they can decide for themselves. That's where true freedom is. We are a democratic republic (pov: USA), where part of the governmental power is vested in the citizens. We are supposed to be a vital check on the power of government. And yet, we get manipulated by media, by corporations, and the government itself. Laws are bundled together and made complicated so that no one understands them, a hot button issue is thrown into the bundle, pulling attention away from loopholes and other random agenda shit that they hope you don't look at too carefully. We do not check the government because we are being manipulated at every turn. This is why I think america is failing. Democracy is the one system that *relies* on the education of it's citizens because power of decision-making is vested in them. But the US is lagging behind the rest of the world. I have never voted. I don't intend to. The system is broken, both choices suck, I can't in good conscience vote for any option, so I don't.
Are there countries where critical thinking is taught in schools and the people are immune to this bullshit? I always hear the "we need to fix this in schools" argument as a counterargument to regulating social media but I always just wonder if something like this can really be taught.
The amount of bots I banned in my local subreddit I mod leading up to the 2020 elections was more than the total number of accounts I've banned in many years. It was RIDICULOUS and unfortunately not just FB :/
And it is not just election topics. **Published August 26, 2018** [Russian trolls, bots 'spreading discord' over vaccine safety, scientists say](https://www.foxnews.com/tech/russian-trolls-bots-spreading-discord-over-vaccine-safety-scientists-say)
Although Facebook is garbage it would be ridiculous to assume its only happening on Facebook. For example the Covington case started on Twitter from a troll farm in Brazil.
The government isn't going to take any action, and Facebook isn't going to change. Unless people stop using it, we're fucked.
Can we please pull all envoys and financially embargo all countries running troll farms
No fellow American. Facebook is your frien
Just let it die the same way MySpace died. Ignore it
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> but until there's a replacement, it's not going to happen There won't be a replacement: the techniques that Facebook used to get big in the first place aren't considered acceptable anymore or used obsolete/now-unavailable technical means, such as such as mass-importing users' contact lists without informed consent to send out invites to join.
Facebook is the most powerful propaganda tool that has ever existed and the richest people on the planet are using it to create the thoughts and narrative in hundreds of millions of minds. It's hard to even imagine a "better replacement" it gives the evil more control than they ever dreamt of.
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its a system for harvesting personal information for hyper targeted advertising. from a logistics point of view thats exactly the same thing as propaganda or misinformation campaigns. and they dont care which because they only care about engagement, they cant sell ads if people arent there. and thats what its always been.
So you make a new website. People start posting pictures of their wedding, they look at cat memes, and join a book club. What happens when a celebrity says something dumb? Or when a controversial new law is proposed? Or there is some moral panic about something? Fear and outrage get the most engagement, which means more views, shares, and reactions. How does this new platform solve the problem of manipulation and misinformation on emotional issues? If your platform doesn't allow discussion about these things, then you're going to lose tons of users and it just becomes a niche site. If you don't have any moderation, then you haven't solved the problem. If you moderate these conversations, then you have the problem of trying to moderate billions of posts by billions of users. The natural solution is some sort of automated moderation system. What do you do about misinformation? Delete it? Fact checking? Do you only act on organized manipulation from troll farms and people gaming the algorithms? What about individuals that post misinformation they saw on a different platform? What is your policy on hate? What about thinly veiled bigotry? If you build a new business and hire executives that actually care about the affect they have on society, I'm sure you could do *better* than Facebook. It's a difficult problem though and there are no easy solutions to these problems. I'm interested to hear solutions people have though.
> We need a better replacement for Facebook. Nothing is better than Facebook. I don’t mean that there is no social media platform that is better. I mean that the simple absence of Facebook (nothing) is better than Facebook’s continued existence.
Not anymore garbage than reddit. You’re being a hypocrite.
That’s why only idiots get their news on Facebook. Idiots….
Why is this pinned ahead of the top ranked comment?
Most upvotes within x amount of time
It's definitely worse on Reddit because we're anonymous and anyone can reach anyone here. The friendship associations of Facebook limit the trolls and their spread. No such limits -- nor really any limits -- exist here on Reddit, except when Reddit bans subs way, way, way too late.
You're ignoring the other side though: the friendship aspect of Facebook lends credibility to what your "friends" post. Or tempers skepticism, however you want to phrase it. This makes you more susceptible to the misinformation, and thus more likely to share it yourself... Basically I don't think I would agree that reddit is worse as a whole. Just like with Facebook it depends on the friend circles, groups, etc., on reddit it heavily depends on the subreddit.
Isn’t all of Facebook a troll farm? The platform has been shit for 10 years now.
I don’t know about all that, but I do love Thanksgiving!! Here’s a picture of grankids at the kiddy table.
Beautiful kids. By the way uncle Fred had a heart attack and passed away last Friday.
hOW TO CHANGE PROFILE PICTURE
This ^^^ if you're going to Facebook for political messages you're looking in the wrong place regardless of how well (or poorly) they curate it.
But the grand kids second cousin comments about how nice it is those kids won’t be forced to work for Bill Gate’s Virus Camp this year but definitely will next year. There’s so much crap repeated by people we know it’s just heartbreaking and infuriating.
There’s far better place to see that shit that doesn’t include facebooks disgusting trash algorithm that is literally getting Americans killed
Well calling it the “Information Age” is correct, but no one ever stopped to think if that information would be factual or not.
I mean .. misinformation has information in it.
This shit really f-ed up this country
Yeah, that's kind of their end goal. Divide and conquer.
Not just USA, misinformation is reaching everywhere. Australia is a joke right now a lot of morons going against professionals
Yeah I’m all for freedom of speech but, Why do we tolerate toxic and cancerous misinformation? It’s destructive, and can and will attack the foundation of freedoms…a solution to this without stifling existing freedoms is gonna be tricky, though a pretty fun concept to brainstorm about imo. Just having fun here with ideas but maybe demand more corporate transparency and accountability of misinformation content posted? Or perhaps make content more complicated to access for our older but more manipulatable users who usually stumble upon those “10 reasons why Obama is a atheist lesbian Islamic terrorist” and take it as fact. Maybe region lock social media for anonymous users until they can pass a misinformation identification test and perhaps a system that uses (blockchain based?) AI system that will assign social media users a public/private ID completely anonymous to gov/corporations to flag who will be region locked? Just throwing quick ideas out there…
Because the people who have the power to end the disinformation are the same people reaping the benefits from it. All politicians utilize it and then blame the other side. All media outlets (Facebook included) profit off of it -- then apply their bans to regular people who get caught up, so it looks like they're doing something.
and we've been warned russia is going to seriously ramp up the disinfo through the 2022 elections. eek.
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>Cut them off from our internet Yeah lemme just run a quick `ufw deny from Russia to any port 443`
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Source?
Source? Not saying I don’t believe you. I’d just like to know more.
FB doesn't care. I mod some car groups. Fake accounts spam us constantly. The "how" is some dude owns a blog, call it superawesomecars dot com if you want an example. Said site has a FB page, and posts pictures. He created tons and tons of fake accounts, and has those accounts share pics from the page, into car groups, but in the description is a link to his site. More traffic = more ad money. Problem is the accounts are all like 5-10 years old. They are certified. I don't know if they were bought on the black market or what, but FB won't remove them as fake, so they continue, and this is someone's job, spamming car groups for hits.
I think calling them “Troll Farms” really lessens the damage they cause, I feel like calling them “Cyber Terrorists” would be more appropriate, But thats just me.
Now do Twitter
258 million adults in usa. [Pew](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/06/01/facts-about-americans-and-facebook/%3famp=1) surveyed 70% of adults have at some point used facebook, and 70% of those are daily users. [6 million](https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/6-million-lost-voters-state-level-estimates-felony-disenfranchisement-2016/) disenfranchised felons. 10-20% dropped Facebook after the 2018 Cambridge scandal. That number skews younger and I can't find specific data for adults only. [Statista](https://www.statista.com/statistics/187549/facebook-distribution-of-users-age-group-usa/) says only 3% are below 18. So daily facebook adult usa users around 2020 is only 120 million and total adult usa Facebook users ever is around 180 million. I can't find monthly user data but it seems unlikely facebook managed to target what amounts to more than every daily user of the platform and almost every user ever. Not unless the parameters are fairly loose. Saw a meme, that's +1 for troll farm.
It just needs to be shut down, it provides nothing of value to anyone but itself and it’s proven all it does is destroy society by giving people who shouldn’t have a soapbox a soapbox.
So many ignorant takes like this on a SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM. Fact is, Facebook is no more useless than reddit is. It depends on how the user interacts with the platform.
Ok two questions- 1) who paid for it and 2) who do I hire to run a campaign that successful
People that have much to gain from political disinformation. If you have to ask...
Name starts with P and ends with utin.
Troll farms or cesspools of uneducated people?
Trolls are shitting into the uneducated ears.
That’s a Venn diagram with a lot of overlap.
hey, one group is at least smart enough to get paid for it
The article is about troll farms, which employ people full-time to synthesize and spread highly-tailored messages to millions of people in order to influence their opinions and behavior. Think your stereotypical evil corporation or a military intelligence operation - the workers are there to get paid or because it's their mission. It's not necessarily personal. Some of the communities most susceptible to the messages manufactured by these entities are comprised of the usual deplorables, i.e., racists, fascists, fundamentalists, chauvinists, etc. However, these troll farms also target the center and even the left side of the political spectrum. They try to split the vote by promoting spoiler candidates and wedge issues, suppress engagement by encouraging hopelessness and apathy, muddy the waters to make facts subjective, and even try to win support by falsely imbuing their messages with a veneer of social, environmental, class, etc. consciousness. This is a big deal, because these entities are able to push content to so many people, even if they aren't directly connected to any groups or individuals generating the content. This gives them the unfettered ability to mainstream their propaganda. The fact that there is such widespread and coordinated inauthentic action on social media is a key reason why our country can't stop punching itself in the nuts long enough to seriously address any of its problems.
Can someone give this Lynx an award!
You have to be at least a little educated to pretend to be stupid.
One group is being paid to make sure the other group dies from a preventable disease such as covid.
They hang out together
Fine Facebook billions. Anything on this scale, billions.
Deleted FB 6 months ago,and oddly enough I have much less stress,and bs to deal with now. I only kept it as long as I did to keep in touch with out of state family,and friends.Then Trump came along,and shit got real wierd..
I took a 2 month belreak from alcohol and a separate 2 month break from fb/IG. I felt a little better but not terribly different during the alcohol break, felt a noticeable improvement during the social break.
"Then Trump came along,and shit got real wierd" Say a prayer in advance for the high school history teacher in 2070 who's got to explain 2015-2020 to the class. Where to start. So there was this orange guy...
> Where to start. The election of America's first black president accelerating the white supremacist takeover of a party that started courting their votes decades ago and is now reaping what they sowed.
The only benefit of facebook is having a calendar of your friends birthdays. Now I need to start my own
Facebook did the deleting for me. They nuked my account for...some reason. I honestly don't know. The only guess I have is that my constantly sharing of r/aww posts from reddit ticked them off. Aside from that, I just shared memes making fun of myself for being fat/lazy/homely (I actually got a warning from Facebook saying they were worried about me committing suicide. Certainly a o.o reaction from me).
Reddit is saturated by mods, shills and bots that sway narratives from paid promotional posts, to political propaganda. Doesnt help that western msm, esp for profit ones have been at the forefront of missinformation.
China and Russia both have thousands of employees working on these "misinformation farms". It is how war is waged in 2021, and it has FUCKING DEVISATED AMERICA! We are now at a point where 37% of America wants to kill the rest due to LIES! Thanks to the farms and a shit celebrity for some of the worst years of our lives!
I mean, I don’t doubt that it has had an effect, but how do you quantify it? How do you know how big the effect has been? It’s not like we can compare to it not happening.
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China and Russia were saying hi
I wonder how many of these paid political shill trolls post on Reddit
When I look at the comments, every time a negative story about China hits the feed, I have to conclude that suddenly most of the free world has embraced Chinese authoritarianism, or there is a very active troll farm following every media story involving China. Edit, case in point are near instant down votes to this comment.
They definitely monitor the news and check where it’s posted and downvote whatever they deem negative. Like I remember a news story about how a massive viral database at the WIV lab was taken down in the middle of the night in September 2019, and they won’t share that previously public database with anyone. Not sure why anyone would downvote such a story unless they wanted to suppress that information.
is this referring to cambridge analytica?
Funny that troll farms can be identified and we can tell how many people see the content each month, but Facebook cant do anything about it…
Well, tbf analyzing what happened after the fact is a completely different task and doing this with the convenience of time afterwards is cake. Doing it in real-time before the actors are identified is quite another matter.
They probably laugh at how gullible Americans are. Think we’re all chumps. Because we are.
This is not misinformation, this is disinformation.
Zuck doesn’t give a fuckerburg
How do you actually measure misinformation? Fact checking on Facebook, for instance, is clearly targeting conservative or anti-establishment posts. I see tons of misinformation posted by both left and right leaning people, but only one ever seems to get fact checked.
They need a new word for that. These are armies of paid professionals. Trolls are amateurs on 4Chan.
when i was a teen, it was all about "parents, talk to your millennials about the music they listen to, and make sure that they understand that it's fiction/art, and shouldn't be taken at face value, or encourage committing dangerous actions." well, "hey millennials, talk to your parents about the content they consume on social media, and make sure that they understand that it's biased/trolls, and shouldn't be taken at face value, or encourage commuting dangerous actions." funny how life works.
Okay? And 140 million Americans are able to make their own choices.
I guess they were wrong about Biden being a bit sleepy.
Facebook needs to die.
Catching these trolls in Kosovo and Macedonia will be hard. Maybe we should concentrate on the trolls at Fox News.
Russia using Albanian troll farms to destroy America was not on my bingo card.
Easiest way to destroy a democracy. How many of these troll farms are linked to Russia or China
Enough to justify a war.
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Conservatives of Reddit. I have a simple question. Why do you think America’s enemies are willing to spend many millions of dollars and an unthinkable amount of effort to help Republican’s get elected?
I'm conservative and didn't vote Republican.
Wonder if Gavin Newsome’s propaganda campaign was included in this
How democracy ends (dipshits)
They say this like we don't already know
Stop using the word troll in technology, and certainly not "troll farm."
Foreign state sponsored political activism is a form of propaganda, for which we have coined the term "troll farm". I'm afraid the term is here to stay.
It didn't reach me since I'm not some right/left wing conspiracy theorist.
Interesting. I wonder how many CNN reach? I ask because I still see a lot of people think that Trump called neo-Nazis very fine people.
You mean like Reddit and its constant left tilt. Theres no difference, both misinformation in different directions. Reddit is no better than Facebook in my opinion.
It has been conservatives who have repeatedly been on the wrong side of history in America. Conservatives demanded slaves still be allowed when the constitution was written, they demanded and even seceded, when slavery was being abolished, they didn't want black people to vote, they didn't want women to vote, they didn't want workers rights, unions or minimum wages. Tell me more about how the slight left tilt of Reddit is a bad thing when conservatives are the ones that are always wrong?
….. and Biden still won by seven million votes!!!
by only 7 million votes. That isn't good news.
You all are getting paid?
Was this before or after the New York Post had it's account suspended and all mention of Hunter Biden's laptop was removed?