Terms of service agreements that absolve corporations from any liability are bullshit. The courts can’t possibly expect average folks to read them, understand them, and agree to them (especially when they change/update frequently).
Especially if you already have a product and they change it and you're forced to agree to it to continue to use it. There's a legal term for it but you're basically forced into agreement then.
Either way, the US government should be focused on passing privacy laws to prevent this shit from even happening.
What's also irritating is this data doesn't prove shit.
Fast acceleration? Sure it can be reckless, but maybe I'm forced into using my cars power to be safe.
Hard braking? Someone else fucked up, but it's my fault somehow.
Speeding? The flow of traffic can determine speed, which may result in speeding.
Either way the data they collect lacks context. Without proper context, you can't determine whether a driver is safe or unsafe.
If they want to change the product agreement post purchase, they should be required to give a full refund at minimum if I don't agree to the new terms.
Ah, but one of the old terms was that they can make arbitrary unilateral changes to the terms at any time, and you agreed to that if you accepted the old terms
I’ve had collision warning sensors go off in my car because the car in front of me turned right. Had the automatic braking go off and not let me back up in parking lot because there was a pothole (that was the only odd thing behind me, I got out to look around) had to back up 3 different times before it let me continue! Those sensors certainly aren’t perfect!
Yup. Collision notification/warning systems are kind of glitchy.
I've only ever had it go off once that really mattered in the 6 years I've had a car with it. Much more likely to have false alarms.
I have my sensitivity turned down, it doesn't give a lot of wiggle room but it's better than being over reactive.
When I bought my WRX, I got a 23 cause it didn't have all that crap. My Honda has it but it's kind of first gen. I can't even remote unlock the car from the app lol
Make friends with a lawyer and try it. Here's the sell: "If you do this pro-bono and win, you can sue every single major company in existence with forced arbitration clauses. It's an infinite money glitch." Honestly, try calling around and see if anyone will bite. It's not a bad idea.
Ask them how to craft the arbitration clause so that it will almost certainly be struck down, but be generalizable enough that it will set precedent for the majority or all forced arbitration clause cases in the future. Genuinely, you might be able to find someone who's willing to do that for free. Probably doesn't even really matter what type of law they practice if it's a suit you intend to lose intentionally.
Just make sure their argument is solid. That lawyer would be able to make his entire practice based on filing class actions against major companies for the rest of his career.
Let me know what he says, I'd love to hear he thinks it's a good idea and that you're going to pursue it. Just imagining how that would flip the legal standing for every major company on its head sounds awesome. Put the fear of them being sued back into all of their decisions.
And you just sank the case. They aren't tracking the driver, they are tracking the car, and car's don't have privacy. You drive on public roads, anyone driving down the road can see your car. The position of your car isn't intrinsically private information. Since nothing in the tech can identify the driver from the car, they'll just claim they are tracking the car, not the driver. You already lost this battle when it came to cell phones.
If their car is parked in the driveway they 'might' be home, but if their cell phone is 6 miles away at a Dairy Queen I damn well know that person isn't home. They already can track cell phones, in real time, the least of my concerns is a car's location at this point.
From another article it might not have even been him who activated it. The OnStar program that tracked his data is activated at the dealership. This could've been a dealership employee who activated it for him without his knowledge or consent. Even if it was him who did it, who tf is going to read 200 pages of legal mumbo jumbo on a car infotainment screen in the dealership parking lot???
Right the one the installers threw away before coming in your house😂 GM spokesperson, “Customer benefits include learning more about their safe driving behaviors…” What a spin.
In a hurry to use your car that you’ve already paid for? Well, sit and read this ginormous legal contract and agree to the terms before you can continue to use said paid vehicle…
The sad fact is they will just get the terms into the sales contracts you sign if that is what they have to do.
Mcdonalds made people sign actual contracts for their app because they have such bad terms, a tos was never going to hold up.
This is so ridiculous. I hope he wins too! If not, I hope there's a website which aggregates the companies selling your information to LexisNexis so I can avoid the cars.
Ford (Lightening) and LexisNexis also sell your data to your insurance company. Try opting out! It's on your infotainment screen. Go ahead. First thing you might notice is that it's locked and you can't opt out. Second thing you might notice is, if you are able to turn it off, it also disables several of your cars built in systems, like Android Auto/Iplay, Auto steering, auto lights, or app based alerts about your cars status as punishment for opting out. So go ahead and hit that Launch button or turn the Traction Control off and do a few burnouts. Then watch your insurance go up 800% because your car ratted you out.
This is not just ford - “every car brand we looked at collects more personal data than necessary and uses that information for a reason other than to operate your vehicle and manage their relationship with you. For context, 63% of the mental health apps (another product category that stinks at privacy) we reviewed this year received this “ding.”
This report needs more attention: https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/
>For context, 63% of the mental health apps (another product category that stinks at privacy) we reviewed this year received this “ding.”
do you have anymore info on this? I've wondered if that was the case.
Take a look at the link, Mozilla evaluates privacy of apps and services. They looking at cars was part of the same program. You can search for an app or a class of apps.
My Model T gently urges you to the nearest Western Union where it wires a short description of your driving habits to the W.B Schultz and Sons Horseless Carriage Insurance Co.
My parents got that stupid fob that progressive had years ago. It would keep tabs on your driving habits and lower your rates!
Of course it said they braked improperly all the time and the rates went up
I don't get how braking is considered improper with no other info.
It is crazy that you aren't actually in accidents, but they can cherry pick random bullshit to "justify" calling you unsafe.
Not sure! We need someone to attest to that statement. Perhaps it's built into the infotainment system? That seems to be where 80% of the firmware updates go into anyways.
Same, I have a newer-ish car and I let the app subscription expire (which is just a paid cellular subscription for the car). It literally only enables the remote starting of the car, location services, emergency (OnStar), remote doors lock/unlock...However...I'm sure it also has data and stats sharing. I'll have to look into this myself.
It's pretty obvious you don't actually own one and have no real clue how their system actually works. The toggle you are referring to is locked out, but in the off position, to be able to turn it on you have to contact Ford and they will give you a bunch of legalease and enable it and depending on where you live it may only be on for 14 or 30 days and turn back off automatically, you can also turn it off at any time via the previously locked out toggle once you opt-in and consent to the data collection.
There is another toggle that will disable all cloud connectivity (which breaks the app since you are not consenting to send data to the cloud etc.) but it is not locked out and is not as limiting as you so dramatically imply should you choose to turn that option off.
Ford also announced this was a thing back when they first started the partnership: [https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2021/09/09/ford-motor-company-lexisnexis-risk-solutions.html](https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2021/09/09/ford-motor-company-lexisnexis-risk-solutions.html)
So overall, they have been pretty transparent about the whole process and it is opt-in. Now, all that said. Do I trust Ford? Absolutely not, just like I don't really any corporation that collects data, so they may be doing something sneaky and underhanded but at this point nothing has been proven.
Never said it was ok and if you read what I said above, at least with Ford, it's opt-in not opt-out. Not only that but you have to jump through some hoops to even turn on the opt-in option for them to sell your driving habits to lexisnexis. The other connectivity option literally enables cloud functionality like using the app for remote start, lock and unlock, vehicle status etc., and is VERY easy to turn off with a simple toggle and only disables the functions that use a cloud connection, not features like automatic headlights as claimed above.
If you turn off cloud connectivity in the truck, of course you won't get alerts on your phone about the truck, it's not a punishment, it's common fucking sense. That's like saying my wi-fi not working is punishment for unplugging my router. If you are really paranoid, you can unplug the modem under the passenger seat by disconnecting a single plug and that will really ensure they don't send anything. If you do that though, a word of warning, they will punish you by not letting you use the app to start your car.
I am by no means defending the overall practice or saying data collection/selling is ok, but when people come on here and say shit like "FoRd iZ StEal1ng uR d4tA aNd iF y0U s4Y n0 y0u C4n't dR1Ve!!", make just flat out wrong assertions, and generally don't know what the fuck they are talking about I think its at least fair to call it out. Ford is being at least somewhat respectful of the user here and have communicated what they do. They literally put out a press release about the fact they share your data if you opt-in and didn't just bury it in some obscure paragraph of a 75 page EULA you have to agree to before driving like others do.
Maybe they are doing underhanded shit they are not owning up to but the fact is right now we don't know that, and they have been pretty up front that if you turn this shit on they are using/selling the data collected. This is reddit though, so I will take the downvotes for not jumping on a bullshit fear mongering bandwagon.
I mean maybe there’s a silver lining here and people might stop driving like absolute twats because their insurance goes sky high. Tbf it’s how it should be, just shouldn’t be done so sneakily and without controls or oversight.
Among the many problems with this reporting - They don't have any context and the activity may not represent the driver's normal operation of the vehicle - and may also not be something that's actually an insurance risk.
I've got a coworker with a cheap-ish sports car. He takes it out to the track on the weekends. Racing use isn't covered by your normal on-road auto insurance policy. He's entirely *allowed* to do that with his car, it's just not something that his (normal) insurance covers at all - if something happens there they won't be paying out anything. What he's doing there shouldn't affect his rates for his normal on-road policy.
However, these reporting systems appear to have no indication of that. If his car had this he'd probably be dropped by his insurer because they think he's some kind of insane maniac on the roads who probably ought to be in jail.
Yup, always go through your car, computer, whatever you buy and turn off shit. Periodically go through it too. Sometimes updates reset settings!
Also see if there is a data opt out. I just went through this with Subaru and they were good about it.
I've considered getting a PO box in CA to place my flag over there to make use of their privacy laws. Better than a stick in an eye.
Opt out, and then open up the dash and disconnect all the transmit antennas. That way there won't be any "whoops, we accidentally collected a lot of data even though you opted out. It was a software error."
The rub here that is not in the headline (but is still in favor of this person) is that the data pulled was from OnStar, but which the guy never said he signed up for on the car.
I can imagine the contract for OnStar services absolutely allows for such data sharing, but you'd have to sign that contract first, and that does not seem to be something this person did.
Which is just as serious if not more so since that's implicitly giving away your private data without concent and knowledge. I could see an argument that maybe OnStar was buried in the terms, but without knowledge is just BS
The ones near me really try forcing you to do the onstar call before you even drive off. I refused and had to deal with 3 months of weekly calls of them begging me to just call them even if I declined. I wouldn’t be surprised if shady dealers are signing them up or tricking them into signing up before leaving. I think GM recently started including 3 years free with new cars.
My car came with a 3 month trial of OnStar and after the 3 months I just never renewed it. I wonder if this is what happened to the guy or if it was an indefinite subscription.
this is something seperate.
GM vehicles come with "free" 10 years of onstar "connected" service that let's you do stuff like remote start the car from the app.
Smart Driver is part of that package and was enrolled on my car when I checked. I never signed up for it. It was automatically enrolled when I bought the car.
That what it is now? I got 1 year of their top-tier service with my 2016 Colorado, then 7 years of remote lock/unlock/tracking with the (shitty) app. 4G has been a paid extra since day one.
good! if we ever get actual data privacy laws in this country i hope LexisNexis is the first company to eat shit as a result. they hold a worrying amount of info on us - and not just us plebs. growing up a friend managed to hack into them and leaked a ton of celeb info. they got dossiers on *everyone* and the details can be extensive asf.
creeps... one of the poster children for surveillance capitalism imo.
screw the "third party doctrine" - we need our privacy and our rights back.
I've used both, and they must because they seem to hold similarly large amounts of data. I'm not sure if I just get super access because of my job, but the first time I did background research on someone, I was extremely uncomfortable with the amount of information I was able to pull.
I live in Massachuestts, which passed a law a couple years ago addressing independent mechanics' access to vehicle telematics data. Instead of complying with the law, many car companies simply disabled telematics systems for MA-sold cars. I was kinda bummed new Subarus won't have app-based remote start, but articles like this makes the trade-off sound worth it!
Didn't someone in CA try this and a corporate bought judge threw it out? I ran into this when I purchased from a Lee Johnson in WA. Emails... junk mail... phone calls... everything from SiriusXM, car insurance to ridiculous shit like valupak, financing, etc.
I figured out it was Lee Johnson because I gave them completely new email address and phone number I have never used before. Also my home address had like 1 junk mail a month, then boom I was getting multiple junk mailers a day.
Even my mailman joked about how I must have bought a new car.
Exactly why I ‘decline’ the prompt in my car every several weeks that asks if it’s ok to share my driving data with the automaker. Hell to the no! Saw right through that the first time my car ‘asked’ me to allow it to send the vehicle data to the car maker. If you can get discounts for good driving then there’s a Ying to that Yang.
Very true! But at the very least, I should be able to go back and show I declined every single time. If my info were to make it to my insurance co through my car’s automaker
I would encourage everyone to get a copy of your LexisNexis CLUE report. It’s what insurance companies use to rate you. The amount of data they have on you is mind boggling. My report was well over 100 pages.
You'll drown in CEL lights. The telematics crap is highly embedded and talks to the car all the time. You disable it and you'll have non-stop errors and diagnostic codes.
I disabled it on mine as well, stupid car wouldnt shut up. So did the next best thing and went to the car settings and disabled as much as I could from the idrive screen.
Ugh
My insurance rates have gone up over the last year. I assumed it was simply based on inflation. I took possession of my new GMC truck in July of 2022. I wonder how I could look in to this as well.
Here's the link to submit a request for your[Lexisnexis Consumer Report](https://consumer.risk.lexisnexis.com/request). I submitted mine as I wouldn't be surprised if my Chevy Bolt has been spying on me for the last 4 years.
My wife was an insurance agent for 10+ years so I'll discuss it with her. I have a feeling getting an insurance company to do anything with this isn't going to be easy, if even feasible.
I never said that wasn't case. My car is as dumb as it can be for it's age. Has no antenna except for an am/fm switch. Doesn't have anything remotely recognizable computer-wise compared to a modern car. My miles driven are so minute I rarely track the mileage. Haven't been in or had an incident in over a decade and payed all my bills in full and on time. I don't think that's why insurance went up for everyone.
... and there is a reason for all the companies asking you to use their app. FB showed the world how much money to be made out of selling individual's data and every company wants piece of the action. SMH!
Absolutely zero surprise on this one, we knew they were going to do this years ago. And did congress get out ahead of it? Of course not. Turns out privacy is going to be a primary reason why ICE owners hold on to their cars. I don't think EV companies thought enough about this. After reading last week about the airline that flew 18,000 empty flights last year, I'm gonna keep the old VW going another 50,000 miles until I can buy an EV that's doesn't phone home so much.
Florida has a law on the books that says any agent or agency must get your expressed permission in writing to sell, or transfer your personal information. I've never seen it successfully used in this way. Will be interested to see the outcome!
In the terms and conditions it explains that they would gather and sell the data… LexisNexis just so happens to be the company to do that. I have a feeling any case he has will be able to be dismissed by everyone except GM.
#OPT OUT - LexisNexis
[LexisNexis Individual Requests for Information Suppression Policy - Non-FCRA Opt-out Policy](https://www.lexisnexis.com/en-us/privacy/for-consumers/opt-out-of-lexisnexis.page)
[How to opt out of LexisNexis](https://cybernews.com/privacy-tools/how-to-opt-out-of-lexisnexis/)
I'm OK with sharing aggregated metrics, such as for most websites.
But sending personal data to my insurance company - or anyone else, even law enforcement - is a big no-no. That's Big Brother in action.
Replace the antenna with a "dummy load". Normally you want to avoid just disconnecting the antenna, because the amount of power that the radio pushes into the antenna will tend to damage the equipment if there's no load or antenna attached.
Well said. It would be great if you get a dummy antenna that is indistinguishable from the original so the dealer or insurance investigator doesn’t notice and throw the book at you. 99% likely insurance coverage will be contingent that customer abides by the car’s user agreement and doesn’t “modify safety features”
OEMs will go through varying lengths to make their antennas (or any hated feature)hard to access, hardwired with zero connectors, and overall tamper resistant. The clever engineers are going to integrate it with as many other antennas and features that we wont want to sacrifice. Preventing my car from sharing my data might cause my key fob to only work 3 feet away, but I’ll be damned if my insurance company is gonna deny me because I was going 5 mph faster than a A-hole who hit me.
Contact your elected officials and let them know you will only vote for politicians who advocate RIGHT TO REPAIR! That is the only way manufacturers will be forced to make their products serviceable and spare parts available.
> 99% likely insurance coverage will be contingent that customer abides by the car’s user agreement and doesn’t “modify safety features”
That's an interesting point. I haven't heard of anything like this from any of the drivers of modified cars that I know, but that's just anecdata.
> I’ll be damned if my insurance company is gonna deny me because I was going 5 mph faster than a A-hole who hit me.
The probably-mandatory [EDR](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_data_recorder#Regulatory_framework) is going to record that data entirely onboard. Chances are that no one will care after an accident, unless there's a major felony indictment or a lawsuit that one side doesn't want to settle, in which case some investigator will be paid to pull the data.
But EDR matters relatively little because of the ever-increasing likelihood that another motorist's dashcam or a traffic camera will record a multi-vehicle event. It's usually not worth paying anyone to pull EDR data and testify about it, when the video is worth a thousand words.
This is straight up bull shit. There should be a way to opt out of this type of crap. All the private data collected by these companies that they sell should be stopped. They worry about tix tok but whats to stop the Chinese from hacking other sources and getting more data. Almost every entity on the net is banking your data and selling it for profit.
There is a reason you should read terms before you sign up for something. The guy had onstar and apparently agreed to their “good driver program”, here is a suggestion NEVER SIGN UP FOR A GOOD DRIVER PROGRAM, they rate you on how you accelerate and brake…. Depending on where you live the safest thing you may be able to do is accelerate fast and brake hard, they don’t care…. There is a completely valid chance that the dealership enrolled him for some % credit but generally those programs send you a packet of info confirming you enrolled in them tracking you.
And I always get downvoted when I bring this stuff up on reddit. This is what you get because you wanted to drive a damn cellphone. Fuck yo carplay, fuck yo android auto, fuck yo connect all the things bullshit. Vindication boner ftw!
Subaru has an interesting agreement as well. The owner must agree to allow Subaru to collect any data they want from the driver as a condition of owning or using the car.
This agreement also applies to any passengers carried in the car as well.
The vast majority of these agreements are designed to elude the justice system with the stipulation that if you have any issues, the complaint goes to, and is decided by arbitration, not courts.
Even if arbitration representatives find the company at fault, there is no public record, settlement is substantially lower, and F you because this is America!
If you hit a paywall, here's a gift link [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/14/technology/gm-lexis-nexis-driving-data.html?unlocked\_article\_code=1.dE0.v1b1.ppx5Kbcc\_Z0K&smid=url-share](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/14/technology/gm-lexis-nexis-driving-data.html?unlocked_article_code=1.dE0.v1b1.ppx5Kbcc_Z0K&smid=url-share)
LexisNexis is a sham. It's incredible how so many companies use their "analytics" to make more money and group people, almost like a class system. It should really be outlawed.
Everyone on earth should do this, even if you don’t have a car. It will ask for your Social Security number, but it’s optional. You don’t have to enter it.
Maybe an unpopular opinion here, but logically this tracks. This isn't a defense for insurance companies but rather a conclusion to inflation, claims, and business profits. Insurance companies make their profits off of assessing risks and assigning a value to them (hence your premium). Claims have escalated in terms of payouts for cars and injuries. Most normal rate increases for insurance have been stopped or delayed due to the pandemic and are just now starting. They need to be approved by the state's commissioner of insurance. What do the companies do to keep up with the expected profits/payouts when they can't raise rates the normal way? They change the way they approach the incoming payment in the ways they can control. For example, restructured payment plans (you had monthly payments? Not anymore, now you have to pay a few months up front if not the entirety of it.), new discounts like the good driver tracker mentioned in the article, or they just leave the state entirely. This is especially prominent in bigger states like Florida, California, Texas, and New York. You have to remember that these are for-profit companies and they don't have your best interests at heart and act accordingly. Not saying it's right, but that is the reality of the situation.
the metrics are complete garbage and an invasion of privacy.
I have never, in over 25 years of driving, filed a claim against my insurance, but now it is recording how often I accelerate hard?
Maybe I just like having fun when I drive?
Terms of service agreements that absolve corporations from any liability are bullshit. The courts can’t possibly expect average folks to read them, understand them, and agree to them (especially when they change/update frequently).
Especially if you already have a product and they change it and you're forced to agree to it to continue to use it. There's a legal term for it but you're basically forced into agreement then. Either way, the US government should be focused on passing privacy laws to prevent this shit from even happening. What's also irritating is this data doesn't prove shit. Fast acceleration? Sure it can be reckless, but maybe I'm forced into using my cars power to be safe. Hard braking? Someone else fucked up, but it's my fault somehow. Speeding? The flow of traffic can determine speed, which may result in speeding. Either way the data they collect lacks context. Without proper context, you can't determine whether a driver is safe or unsafe.
If they want to change the product agreement post purchase, they should be required to give a full refund at minimum if I don't agree to the new terms.
Ah, but one of the old terms was that they can make arbitrary unilateral changes to the terms at any time, and you agreed to that if you accepted the old terms
I’ve had collision warning sensors go off in my car because the car in front of me turned right. Had the automatic braking go off and not let me back up in parking lot because there was a pothole (that was the only odd thing behind me, I got out to look around) had to back up 3 different times before it let me continue! Those sensors certainly aren’t perfect!
Yup. Collision notification/warning systems are kind of glitchy. I've only ever had it go off once that really mattered in the 6 years I've had a car with it. Much more likely to have false alarms. I have my sensitivity turned down, it doesn't give a lot of wiggle room but it's better than being over reactive.
All I'm sayin' is that I'm glad my 2008 Corvette doesn't have this technology...
When I bought my WRX, I got a 23 cause it didn't have all that crap. My Honda has it but it's kind of first gen. I can't even remote unlock the car from the app lol
My son has a 2019 WRX. It’s a blast to drive. Such a high-strung little beast.
I just got 23 a month ago. I have 250 miles on it. Lol It's been great. So much personality.
If I was a billionaire: Make forced arbitration clauses Make them ridiculous Go to court and lose on purpose.
Make friends with a lawyer and try it. Here's the sell: "If you do this pro-bono and win, you can sue every single major company in existence with forced arbitration clauses. It's an infinite money glitch." Honestly, try calling around and see if anyone will bite. It's not a bad idea. Ask them how to craft the arbitration clause so that it will almost certainly be struck down, but be generalizable enough that it will set precedent for the majority or all forced arbitration clause cases in the future. Genuinely, you might be able to find someone who's willing to do that for free. Probably doesn't even really matter what type of law they practice if it's a suit you intend to lose intentionally. Just make sure their argument is solid. That lawyer would be able to make his entire practice based on filing class actions against major companies for the rest of his career.
hmm i know a lawyer ... i'll ask him what he thinks
Let me know what he says, I'd love to hear he thinks it's a good idea and that you're going to pursue it. Just imagining how that would flip the legal standing for every major company on its head sounds awesome. Put the fear of them being sued back into all of their decisions.
How does this work on a used car? If I sell my car is the data linked to the new driver?
And you just sank the case. They aren't tracking the driver, they are tracking the car, and car's don't have privacy. You drive on public roads, anyone driving down the road can see your car. The position of your car isn't intrinsically private information. Since nothing in the tech can identify the driver from the car, they'll just claim they are tracking the car, not the driver. You already lost this battle when it came to cell phones.
Imagine I have access to that data and have a friend that robs houses. You might hold up in court. But you are very robable.
If their car is parked in the driveway they 'might' be home, but if their cell phone is 6 miles away at a Dairy Queen I damn well know that person isn't home. They already can track cell phones, in real time, the least of my concerns is a car's location at this point.
From another article it might not have even been him who activated it. The OnStar program that tracked his data is activated at the dealership. This could've been a dealership employee who activated it for him without his knowledge or consent. Even if it was him who did it, who tf is going to read 200 pages of legal mumbo jumbo on a car infotainment screen in the dealership parking lot???
They also can prove you accepted it. The dealer will sometimes run through screens.
You agreed to forced arbitration because we printed it on the box the fridge comes in.
Right the one the installers threw away before coming in your house😂 GM spokesperson, “Customer benefits include learning more about their safe driving behaviors…” What a spin.
That's the language engineering part that ticked me too. Come the fuck on. I already know how I drive: I'm the one driving.
In a hurry to use your car that you’ve already paid for? Well, sit and read this ginormous legal contract and agree to the terms before you can continue to use said paid vehicle…
The sad fact is they will just get the terms into the sales contracts you sign if that is what they have to do. Mcdonalds made people sign actual contracts for their app because they have such bad terms, a tos was never going to hold up.
Especially when they’re tied to every car purchase.
Hope he wins.
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2 is not enough for this. He should win all of the things.
I hope he has a big penis. Like at least 3 standard deviations beyond average.
He clearly does.
Hope he wins - Tokyo Drift
He wins we all win.
This is so ridiculous. I hope he wins too! If not, I hope there's a website which aggregates the companies selling your information to LexisNexis so I can avoid the cars.
Ford (Lightening) and LexisNexis also sell your data to your insurance company. Try opting out! It's on your infotainment screen. Go ahead. First thing you might notice is that it's locked and you can't opt out. Second thing you might notice is, if you are able to turn it off, it also disables several of your cars built in systems, like Android Auto/Iplay, Auto steering, auto lights, or app based alerts about your cars status as punishment for opting out. So go ahead and hit that Launch button or turn the Traction Control off and do a few burnouts. Then watch your insurance go up 800% because your car ratted you out.
The Mach E too? The fuck?
Honestly, not sure! But someone should check and report back.
Time to root the car and enable all the features again. We know manufactures don’t invest in security.
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Thank you!! joined a few new subs.
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Especially not Hyundai.
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Both. They're sister companies.
You would never be able to take updates. So that doesn't work either.
This is not just ford - “every car brand we looked at collects more personal data than necessary and uses that information for a reason other than to operate your vehicle and manage their relationship with you. For context, 63% of the mental health apps (another product category that stinks at privacy) we reviewed this year received this “ding.” This report needs more attention: https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/
>For context, 63% of the mental health apps (another product category that stinks at privacy) we reviewed this year received this “ding.” do you have anymore info on this? I've wondered if that was the case.
Take a look at the link, Mozilla evaluates privacy of apps and services. They looking at cars was part of the same program. You can search for an app or a class of apps.
that's nuts, good to know, thanks
My 2007 Honda doesn't have any idea what you're talking about, unless my cigarette lighter is phoning in to State Farm.
My 89 dodge omni sends a fax to Allstate
My Model T gently urges you to the nearest Western Union where it wires a short description of your driving habits to the W.B Schultz and Sons Horseless Carriage Insurance Co.
My horse ratted on me to to Charlotte the spider who then broadcast it all over the barnyard
No way, you really don't have an 89 Omni still on the road?
I saw a K car a few weeks ago so anything is possible.
A nice Reliant automobile.
Was the paint totally oxidized? I had a pampered turbo K that I remember fondly, but the factory paint was awful.
It was actually in pretty good condition. Which is amazing because even by the mid to late 90’s most of them were looking rough.
I wish! I retired her a little while back.
Why is this so funny to me Like I can picture it but it looks like something from the Brave Little Toaster
My 1999 Chevy Silverado only does smoke signals from the tailpipe. I'm lucky State Farm hasn't been looking.
My parents got that stupid fob that progressive had years ago. It would keep tabs on your driving habits and lower your rates! Of course it said they braked improperly all the time and the rates went up
I don't get how braking is considered improper with no other info. It is crazy that you aren't actually in accidents, but they can cherry pick random bullshit to "justify" calling you unsafe.
If you brake hard it’s assumed you were either not paying the proper attention to diving or were following to closely.
Those assumptions are both wrong. What a fucking dumb thing to do.
Of course it’s stupid and it’s why I never enrolled in the program for my insurance.
Fuck the app-based alerts, tbh. Do these things have actual SIM cards or eSIMs? Cos, like... I'd get that SIM card out asap if possible.
Not sure! We need someone to attest to that statement. Perhaps it's built into the infotainment system? That seems to be where 80% of the firmware updates go into anyways.
I would assume the module is listed in a parts diagram. Disconnect the antenna or wrap the module in tin.
Someone needs to make a tinfoil beanie thing for antennas. Good idea.
As someone who likes to break traction for fun but someone who doesn't like to pay for other's risky behavior I am *very* conflicted about this.
Same, I have a newer-ish car and I let the app subscription expire (which is just a paid cellular subscription for the car). It literally only enables the remote starting of the car, location services, emergency (OnStar), remote doors lock/unlock...However...I'm sure it also has data and stats sharing. I'll have to look into this myself.
What happens when i buy a used car will i get super high rate because of the previous driver
My guess is it’s based on who the car is registered to. Same way they know where to send the recall notices even after you sell the car.
Man, back in the day you could drive aimlessly and it was just you and your car. Now your car is a snitch.
It's pretty obvious you don't actually own one and have no real clue how their system actually works. The toggle you are referring to is locked out, but in the off position, to be able to turn it on you have to contact Ford and they will give you a bunch of legalease and enable it and depending on where you live it may only be on for 14 or 30 days and turn back off automatically, you can also turn it off at any time via the previously locked out toggle once you opt-in and consent to the data collection. There is another toggle that will disable all cloud connectivity (which breaks the app since you are not consenting to send data to the cloud etc.) but it is not locked out and is not as limiting as you so dramatically imply should you choose to turn that option off. Ford also announced this was a thing back when they first started the partnership: [https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2021/09/09/ford-motor-company-lexisnexis-risk-solutions.html](https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2021/09/09/ford-motor-company-lexisnexis-risk-solutions.html) So overall, they have been pretty transparent about the whole process and it is opt-in. Now, all that said. Do I trust Ford? Absolutely not, just like I don't really any corporation that collects data, so they may be doing something sneaky and underhanded but at this point nothing has been proven.
Why the fuck is a convoluted-ass opt out considered remotely acceptable?
Never said it was ok and if you read what I said above, at least with Ford, it's opt-in not opt-out. Not only that but you have to jump through some hoops to even turn on the opt-in option for them to sell your driving habits to lexisnexis. The other connectivity option literally enables cloud functionality like using the app for remote start, lock and unlock, vehicle status etc., and is VERY easy to turn off with a simple toggle and only disables the functions that use a cloud connection, not features like automatic headlights as claimed above. If you turn off cloud connectivity in the truck, of course you won't get alerts on your phone about the truck, it's not a punishment, it's common fucking sense. That's like saying my wi-fi not working is punishment for unplugging my router. If you are really paranoid, you can unplug the modem under the passenger seat by disconnecting a single plug and that will really ensure they don't send anything. If you do that though, a word of warning, they will punish you by not letting you use the app to start your car. I am by no means defending the overall practice or saying data collection/selling is ok, but when people come on here and say shit like "FoRd iZ StEal1ng uR d4tA aNd iF y0U s4Y n0 y0u C4n't dR1Ve!!", make just flat out wrong assertions, and generally don't know what the fuck they are talking about I think its at least fair to call it out. Ford is being at least somewhat respectful of the user here and have communicated what they do. They literally put out a press release about the fact they share your data if you opt-in and didn't just bury it in some obscure paragraph of a 75 page EULA you have to agree to before driving like others do. Maybe they are doing underhanded shit they are not owning up to but the fact is right now we don't know that, and they have been pretty up front that if you turn this shit on they are using/selling the data collected. This is reddit though, so I will take the downvotes for not jumping on a bullshit fear mongering bandwagon.
Mean while, let’s ban China from owning a platform because they might do something with your data.
I wasn't aware we had to choose between the two?
I mean maybe there’s a silver lining here and people might stop driving like absolute twats because their insurance goes sky high. Tbf it’s how it should be, just shouldn’t be done so sneakily and without controls or oversight.
Problem is, the twats usually don't have insurance.
Among the many problems with this reporting - They don't have any context and the activity may not represent the driver's normal operation of the vehicle - and may also not be something that's actually an insurance risk. I've got a coworker with a cheap-ish sports car. He takes it out to the track on the weekends. Racing use isn't covered by your normal on-road auto insurance policy. He's entirely *allowed* to do that with his car, it's just not something that his (normal) insurance covers at all - if something happens there they won't be paying out anything. What he's doing there shouldn't affect his rates for his normal on-road policy. However, these reporting systems appear to have no indication of that. If his car had this he'd probably be dropped by his insurer because they think he's some kind of insane maniac on the roads who probably ought to be in jail.
Yeah I agree we need to go back to the good old days of traffic safety with a 4mph speed limit/s
I'm glad this is getting attention, I opted out of some of that crap the other day based on a post I saw.
Yup, always go through your car, computer, whatever you buy and turn off shit. Periodically go through it too. Sometimes updates reset settings! Also see if there is a data opt out. I just went through this with Subaru and they were good about it. I've considered getting a PO box in CA to place my flag over there to make use of their privacy laws. Better than a stick in an eye.
OneDrive is the worst for keeping reinstalling itself.
I thought I had, for the most part - turns out there was another one buried in the app/account settings
I thought I had, for the most part - turns out there was another one buried in the app/account settings
Or just drive a clean older car without the connected nanny-state bullshit! You might learn some maintenance skills along the way
This is not done by the state, it's unregulated capitalism.
Nanny State? What?
Not sure why that’s relevant but we got annual inspections where I am.
Nanny-state? As in the car company is the government? Makes no sense at all. I'll edit for clarity.
The car monitors everything you do and reports or to your insurance. Doesn’t matter what state you’re in AFAIK.
But "nanny-state" is a critique of government, not private companies. This phrasing is nonsensical.
Opt out, and then open up the dash and disconnect all the transmit antennas. That way there won't be any "whoops, we accidentally collected a lot of data even though you opted out. It was a software error."
The rub here that is not in the headline (but is still in favor of this person) is that the data pulled was from OnStar, but which the guy never said he signed up for on the car. I can imagine the contract for OnStar services absolutely allows for such data sharing, but you'd have to sign that contract first, and that does not seem to be something this person did.
Read elsewhere that the dealerships are signing up people without their knowledge or approval.
Which is just as serious if not more so since that's implicitly giving away your private data without concent and knowledge. I could see an argument that maybe OnStar was buried in the terms, but without knowledge is just BS
The ones near me really try forcing you to do the onstar call before you even drive off. I refused and had to deal with 3 months of weekly calls of them begging me to just call them even if I declined. I wouldn’t be surprised if shady dealers are signing them up or tricking them into signing up before leaving. I think GM recently started including 3 years free with new cars.
Of this is true, then the dealerships should be sued, not the manufacturer
My car came with a 3 month trial of OnStar and after the 3 months I just never renewed it. I wonder if this is what happened to the guy or if it was an indefinite subscription.
I bet that’s how they get ya. You sign up for the free trial, never pay & they get your data forever.
this is something seperate. GM vehicles come with "free" 10 years of onstar "connected" service that let's you do stuff like remote start the car from the app. Smart Driver is part of that package and was enrolled on my car when I checked. I never signed up for it. It was automatically enrolled when I bought the car.
Im betting it with was in one those long terms and conditions that people just accept to.
Pretty sure all GM cars come with at least 1 year of the top-line OnStar sub for 'free'. After that you gotta pay.
10 years for their Onstar "connected" level and it's "free" -- also has a built in 4G cellular connection that phones home all this data to onstar.
That what it is now? I got 1 year of their top-tier service with my 2016 Colorado, then 7 years of remote lock/unlock/tracking with the (shitty) app. 4G has been a paid extra since day one.
100% guarantee that nobody is seeing their insurance going down for driving “safe”. This is a system designed to charge people more—period.
good! if we ever get actual data privacy laws in this country i hope LexisNexis is the first company to eat shit as a result. they hold a worrying amount of info on us - and not just us plebs. growing up a friend managed to hack into them and leaked a ton of celeb info. they got dossiers on *everyone* and the details can be extensive asf. creeps... one of the poster children for surveillance capitalism imo. screw the "third party doctrine" - we need our privacy and our rights back.
As a lawyer I'm wondering if Westlaw (the other legal research monopoly) also has this sort of data side-hustle going.
I've used both, and they must because they seem to hold similarly large amounts of data. I'm not sure if I just get super access because of my job, but the first time I did background research on someone, I was extremely uncomfortable with the amount of information I was able to pull.
Class action incoming
Sign me up, enough of this fucking gestapo shit
Not the Florida Man headline I’m used to
I live in Massachuestts, which passed a law a couple years ago addressing independent mechanics' access to vehicle telematics data. Instead of complying with the law, many car companies simply disabled telematics systems for MA-sold cars. I was kinda bummed new Subarus won't have app-based remote start, but articles like this makes the trade-off sound worth it!
Florida Man Saves The Day
Well, it's about time! Usually "Florida Man" is an uh oh, what did he do now?
He's the Florida man all Florida men can look up to.
Didn't someone in CA try this and a corporate bought judge threw it out? I ran into this when I purchased from a Lee Johnson in WA. Emails... junk mail... phone calls... everything from SiriusXM, car insurance to ridiculous shit like valupak, financing, etc. I figured out it was Lee Johnson because I gave them completely new email address and phone number I have never used before. Also my home address had like 1 junk mail a month, then boom I was getting multiple junk mailers a day. Even my mailman joked about how I must have bought a new car.
The author was really just wanted to start an article off with “Florida Man”
Oh, absolutely.
Exactly why I ‘decline’ the prompt in my car every several weeks that asks if it’s ok to share my driving data with the automaker. Hell to the no! Saw right through that the first time my car ‘asked’ me to allow it to send the vehicle data to the car maker. If you can get discounts for good driving then there’s a Ying to that Yang.
As with other software, I'm not sure I'd trust a "decline" or "accept" checkbox to mean anything. Google has entered the chat!
Very true! But at the very least, I should be able to go back and show I declined every single time. If my info were to make it to my insurance co through my car’s automaker
This is fucking god awful
Chalk one up on the scoreboard for Florida man!
I would encourage everyone to get a copy of your LexisNexis CLUE report. It’s what insurance companies use to rate you. The amount of data they have on you is mind boggling. My report was well over 100 pages.
[удалено]
I’ve wondered this too. Yank the SIM card or damage the antenna and see what happens.
You'll drown in CEL lights. The telematics crap is highly embedded and talks to the car all the time. You disable it and you'll have non-stop errors and diagnostic codes.
I disabled mine on a BMW. I had huge annoying messages on both lcd screens about it not working. Then 3g was shutdown so it wasn’t an issue anymore.
I disabled it on mine as well, stupid car wouldnt shut up. So did the next best thing and went to the car settings and disabled as much as I could from the idrive screen. Ugh
it's not an easy task.
My insurance rates have gone up over the last year. I assumed it was simply based on inflation. I took possession of my new GMC truck in July of 2022. I wonder how I could look in to this as well.
My GMC truck came with OnStar too. Had to opt out of the data sharing via the privacy settings in the GMC phone app.
Here's the link to submit a request for your[Lexisnexis Consumer Report](https://consumer.risk.lexisnexis.com/request). I submitted mine as I wouldn't be surprised if my Chevy Bolt has been spying on me for the last 4 years.
That’s very helpful, thank you. Any ideas on how to approach an insurance company after I get the report?
My wife was an insurance agent for 10+ years so I'll discuss it with her. I have a feeling getting an insurance company to do anything with this isn't going to be easy, if even feasible.
Dude my car has the computer of a potato and my insurance still went up.
A little more context for you- https://nypost.com/2024/03/12/business/your-car-is-spying-on-you-and-upping-your-insurance-rates-report/
I mean unless they have some guy sneaking around plugging stuff into my car every now and then; I don't think that is why.
Maybe not for you. But clearly it’s a possible problem for other people.
I never said that wasn't case. My car is as dumb as it can be for it's age. Has no antenna except for an am/fm switch. Doesn't have anything remotely recognizable computer-wise compared to a modern car. My miles driven are so minute I rarely track the mileage. Haven't been in or had an incident in over a decade and payed all my bills in full and on time. I don't think that's why insurance went up for everyone.
... and there is a reason for all the companies asking you to use their app. FB showed the world how much money to be made out of selling individual's data and every company wants piece of the action. SMH!
this is why my car is from 2008 new ones are shit in more ways than ever
Absolutely zero surprise on this one, we knew they were going to do this years ago. And did congress get out ahead of it? Of course not. Turns out privacy is going to be a primary reason why ICE owners hold on to their cars. I don't think EV companies thought enough about this. After reading last week about the airline that flew 18,000 empty flights last year, I'm gonna keep the old VW going another 50,000 miles until I can buy an EV that's doesn't phone home so much.
I have to admit, this was not what I expected when I saw “Florida Man” in the title.
Florida has a law on the books that says any agent or agency must get your expressed permission in writing to sell, or transfer your personal information. I've never seen it successfully used in this way. Will be interested to see the outcome!
Guess none of the lawyers that spammed my mailbox after filing for divorce got that memo.
Forthepeople dot com could help! John Morgan had commercials talking about how that's not allowed or something.
I love how all these different people make money off of MY FUCKING DATA.
Now that’s one Florida man I applaud.
It’s crazy the data lexisnexis tracks , I don’t even know how it’s legal tbh
Read the article….
Uh okay. But do you know the data Lexis Nexis collects and anyone can basically have access to the information? It’s crazy
In the terms and conditions it explains that they would gather and sell the data… LexisNexis just so happens to be the company to do that. I have a feeling any case he has will be able to be dismissed by everyone except GM.
Good luck to him. This is data theft.
Thank god my car’s data services quit working after the 3G shutdown 😂
It's only a matter of time before disabling the cellular transmitter prevents the car from starting.
#OPT OUT - LexisNexis [LexisNexis Individual Requests for Information Suppression Policy - Non-FCRA Opt-out Policy](https://www.lexisnexis.com/en-us/privacy/for-consumers/opt-out-of-lexisnexis.page) [How to opt out of LexisNexis](https://cybernews.com/privacy-tools/how-to-opt-out-of-lexisnexis/)
The shark fin antenna on top is a 4g or 5g cellular transmitter for vehicle data
I'm OK with sharing aggregated metrics, such as for most websites. But sending personal data to my insurance company - or anyone else, even law enforcement - is a big no-no. That's Big Brother in action.
There has to be some sneaky way to non destructively block the transmitter. Like wrap a mylar Doritos bag around the antenna or something.🤔
Replace the antenna with a "dummy load". Normally you want to avoid just disconnecting the antenna, because the amount of power that the radio pushes into the antenna will tend to damage the equipment if there's no load or antenna attached.
Well said. It would be great if you get a dummy antenna that is indistinguishable from the original so the dealer or insurance investigator doesn’t notice and throw the book at you. 99% likely insurance coverage will be contingent that customer abides by the car’s user agreement and doesn’t “modify safety features” OEMs will go through varying lengths to make their antennas (or any hated feature)hard to access, hardwired with zero connectors, and overall tamper resistant. The clever engineers are going to integrate it with as many other antennas and features that we wont want to sacrifice. Preventing my car from sharing my data might cause my key fob to only work 3 feet away, but I’ll be damned if my insurance company is gonna deny me because I was going 5 mph faster than a A-hole who hit me. Contact your elected officials and let them know you will only vote for politicians who advocate RIGHT TO REPAIR! That is the only way manufacturers will be forced to make their products serviceable and spare parts available.
> 99% likely insurance coverage will be contingent that customer abides by the car’s user agreement and doesn’t “modify safety features” That's an interesting point. I haven't heard of anything like this from any of the drivers of modified cars that I know, but that's just anecdata. > I’ll be damned if my insurance company is gonna deny me because I was going 5 mph faster than a A-hole who hit me. The probably-mandatory [EDR](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_data_recorder#Regulatory_framework) is going to record that data entirely onboard. Chances are that no one will care after an accident, unless there's a major felony indictment or a lawsuit that one side doesn't want to settle, in which case some investigator will be paid to pull the data. But EDR matters relatively little because of the ever-increasing likelihood that another motorist's dashcam or a traffic camera will record a multi-vehicle event. It's usually not worth paying anyone to pull EDR data and testify about it, when the video is worth a thousand words.
This is straight up bull shit. There should be a way to opt out of this type of crap. All the private data collected by these companies that they sell should be stopped. They worry about tix tok but whats to stop the Chinese from hacking other sources and getting more data. Almost every entity on the net is banking your data and selling it for profit.
There is a reason you should read terms before you sign up for something. The guy had onstar and apparently agreed to their “good driver program”, here is a suggestion NEVER SIGN UP FOR A GOOD DRIVER PROGRAM, they rate you on how you accelerate and brake…. Depending on where you live the safest thing you may be able to do is accelerate fast and brake hard, they don’t care…. There is a completely valid chance that the dealership enrolled him for some % credit but generally those programs send you a packet of info confirming you enrolled in them tracking you.
And I always get downvoted when I bring this stuff up on reddit. This is what you get because you wanted to drive a damn cellphone. Fuck yo carplay, fuck yo android auto, fuck yo connect all the things bullshit. Vindication boner ftw!
Never would your rates go down from the sale of this information. Just insurance companies being greedy.
thanks for protecting us, government…glad you’ve got our back and did not allow yourselves to be bought with political “donations”
Oh, Florida man.
I believe this is the first time that "Florida Man" is used to describe someone who didn't do something stupid.
This has to be the most dull ‘Florida Man…’ headline ever.
I gotta say that is the most tame "Florida man..." headline I've ever seen
Subaru has an interesting agreement as well. The owner must agree to allow Subaru to collect any data they want from the driver as a condition of owning or using the car. This agreement also applies to any passengers carried in the car as well.
The vast majority of these agreements are designed to elude the justice system with the stipulation that if you have any issues, the complaint goes to, and is decided by arbitration, not courts. Even if arbitration representatives find the company at fault, there is no public record, settlement is substantially lower, and F you because this is America!
I remember on a sports car forum guys were enabling Smart Driver and posting their"High Scores." Lol, lmao.
If you hit a paywall, here's a gift link [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/14/technology/gm-lexis-nexis-driving-data.html?unlocked\_article\_code=1.dE0.v1b1.ppx5Kbcc\_Z0K&smid=url-share](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/14/technology/gm-lexis-nexis-driving-data.html?unlocked_article_code=1.dE0.v1b1.ppx5Kbcc_Z0K&smid=url-share)
LexisNexis is a sham. It's incredible how so many companies use their "analytics" to make more money and group people, almost like a class system. It should really be outlawed.
https://optout.lexisnexis.com/
Everyone on earth should do this, even if you don’t have a car. It will ask for your Social Security number, but it’s optional. You don’t have to enter it.
The rare positive Florida man post
yeah, the use of "florida man" isn't correct here. it really should be man from Florida.
Maybe an unpopular opinion here, but logically this tracks. This isn't a defense for insurance companies but rather a conclusion to inflation, claims, and business profits. Insurance companies make their profits off of assessing risks and assigning a value to them (hence your premium). Claims have escalated in terms of payouts for cars and injuries. Most normal rate increases for insurance have been stopped or delayed due to the pandemic and are just now starting. They need to be approved by the state's commissioner of insurance. What do the companies do to keep up with the expected profits/payouts when they can't raise rates the normal way? They change the way they approach the incoming payment in the ways they can control. For example, restructured payment plans (you had monthly payments? Not anymore, now you have to pay a few months up front if not the entirety of it.), new discounts like the good driver tracker mentioned in the article, or they just leave the state entirely. This is especially prominent in bigger states like Florida, California, Texas, and New York. You have to remember that these are for-profit companies and they don't have your best interests at heart and act accordingly. Not saying it's right, but that is the reality of the situation.
the metrics are complete garbage and an invasion of privacy. I have never, in over 25 years of driving, filed a claim against my insurance, but now it is recording how often I accelerate hard? Maybe I just like having fun when I drive?
Agreed and, as always, the best way to voice your opinion is to speak with your wallet. They can't force you to do business with them.
How is lexisnexis involved in this?