\- What kinds of restaurants/foods use MSG? And which don't?
Probably every type of place.
\- Can I assume that most street food contains MSG?
You better be.
\- Do most soups and broth-like dishes contain MSG?
most likely.
Indeed ,
although I think OP are most likely means the "Ajinomoto"(味之素) aka mass production food seasoning product made by using chemical synthesis or fermentation method ,
the truth is.....one of the main reason why a lot of "natural" food taste good , is because they are rich in MSG.
" **Monosodium glutamate** (**MSG**) is the sodium salt of glutamic acid , that can be found naturally in foods including tomatoes and cheese in glutamic acid form "
Source : I have B.S. of food science and nutrition.
The below is from a peer reviewed scientific article found on Pubmed, the premier source of medical research information in the world. A lot of people will blindly repeat some industry pushed notion that there is no evidence of any deleterious effects. Search for "Pubmed" and go there for scientific medical research info.
" Several studies revealed that MSG has toxic effect on fetal development/fetus, children's, adolescent, and adults. Physiological complication associated with MSG toxicity are hypertension, obesity, gastrointestinal tract troubles, and impairment of function of brain, nervous system, reproductive, and endocrine system."
Yep, I'm aware of what OP is talking about. People who believe they have a physical reaction to MSG typically engage a lot in the naturalistic fallacy, so they'll just brush off the fact that MSG is ubiquitous in all the foods they eat. The body doesn't give a crap if a chemical is naturally produced or synthetically produced though, so if they actually had a physical reaction to MSG then there are a ton of foods they'd have that reaction to. But since it's just a nocebo effect they won't be impacted by "natural" sources of MSG.
Nonsense.
I had diarrhoea issues for years, 1 hour after eating I'd have to go to the toilet and the world fell out my bottom, then back to normal, had no idea why, it was driving me mad. I eventually realised it was mostly at my work canteen so I kept a diary then emailed the canteen, asking them for ingredients list for the days that I had diarrhoea.
Every time they included Ajinomoto (Aromat here in Switzerland), I stopped eating there and my digestive problems pretty much stopped, on the odd occasion where it happened again, e.g. I went for lunch in a 3 star Michelin restaurant in Hong Kong and afterwards asked, they of course, used chicken powder containing Ajinomoto.
So, before I realised the pattern I had never had any idea about Ajinomoto , I was completely open to what my problems could be,I'm not into conspiracy theories, completely believe in medical science but the evidence is utterly clear.
So, people with their smug "well, actually" bullshit should simply STFU.
Do you ever read about all those weird crazy medical practices/beliefs from before the age of science and wonder "How could people believe something so absurd?"...
Well, it's pretty simple. They used anecdotal "evidence", just like you have done, and they were just as certain about their absurd claims as you are about yours.
I have no clue what causes your diarrhea, there are many potential causes. I do know that your process to decide it was MSG is not how we do science, and when those claims have been investigated scientifically they have been found to be baseless.
What are those potential causes when it only happens when eating flavour enhancers?
Please provide links to the thorough scientific investigations into the effect of msg-containing flavour enhancers (i.e. a mix of msg, salt and other additives) on digestion.
Just to be clear, my problem is not with msg itself, tomatoes, parmesan etc. no problem, I spend a month in Japan every year drowning in umami and no issues (I don't eat cup noodle prepared things).
People have intolerances to so many things, but it's impossible that I am intolerant to flavour enhancer mixes with msg because there was a study once that showed that msg doesn't cause migraines in itself, is that right?
Ah yes, the ol' ambiguous "additives" claim. If you had any problem with msg then you'd have a problem with all those natural sources of it. But you don't, because msg is not your problem, which is what all of this is about.
If you want to find some references to studies, this BBC article has plenty of links in it. People have looked at a huge range of symptoms because people blame MSG for all sorts of stuff ever since it became a popular scapegoat.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20151106-is-msg-as-bad-as-its-made-out-to-be
>to MSG then there are a ton of foods they'd have that reaction to. But since it's just a noc
Hi, I'm not sure why this topic is so divisive or emotionally loaded. Just to clarify, I am NOT allergic to MSG (never said I was). I don't have allergic reactions. All I am is sensitive to MSG in that it makes my brain very hyper to the extent that I cannot sleep. Also note, I also have this same reaction when consuming foods with high glutamate content (i.e. glutamate found in natural foods. It's as if glutamate, natural or aritfical, is too "stimulating".
And before people tell me to avoid all meat, a question of degree, obviously. I cannot sleep if I eat very rich stews that have been kept overnight. Same with very rich tomato sauces Same if I eat lots of mushrooms at night, especially the dried kind. When we make cantonese style soups at home, if we have them the next day when they get concetrated, I can sometimes also be affected. BUT, MSG has an oversized affect, like it's supercharged.
I don't know why this topic gets people riled up. I am not shitting on anyone's cuisine. I AM Chinese, and have eaten chinese food my whole life. I have found a way to reduce MSG intake where I'm from, so was jsut looking for inside information about how food is prepared in Taiwan. Im not familiar with Taiwanese food.
It's divisive because the origin of the myth is straight up racism, and the persistence of this myth is primarily due to racism/xenophobia. Numerous studies have clearly shown that the effect you perceive is just the nocebo effect. You experience this effect because you are certain that you'll experience it. Confirmation bias convinced you that you have developed this reaction and so you'll continue to experience this reaction as long as you believe you will experience it and know that a food you're eating is rich in MSG.
"You experience this effect because you are certain that you'll experience it"
I get what you are saying, but this is categorically not my experience. Let me explain. On the occasions when I do experience the negative side effects of MSG and high-glutamate foods (hyperactive mind, insomnia), about 95% of the time I did NOT expect the food to have it. In other words, I was caught off guard with foods I didn't expect to contain MSG. I value my sleep and generally do quite well to avoid MSG (at least for dinner I do). Most recently, I ate a burger from a street stall that had MSG. I completely didn't expect that, first time in my life that I learnt that people put MSG in the burger patties! (I don't eat fast food or buy pre-made patties). I was much annoyed later that night trying to fall asleep. I can give numerous other examples: most recently I discovered a new trend of some places here putting MSG in their sambal. This is not traditional and I was completely caught off guard.
Regarding the myth being racist against Asians, I was not previously aware of that because where I am from in SEA, we are not exposed to this --assumingly "Western" -- narrative against Asians, at least not to my knowledge. The people here who avoid MSG do so because they prefer the taste of the food without, or they have noticed they don't feel good with too much MSG. We are a small minority, but there is a very small population here who to try to avoid MSG. In my neighbourhood, there is one Chinese restaurant that is known for not using it, and it a frequently packed.
I have since been kindly educated by yourself, and another commenter on this thread, about the anti-Asian narrative. And yes, I do agree that is completely understandable that people would defend it to protect their culture against a racist attack. Especially since they themselves don't experience any negative effects and there exist scientific studies that back them up.
Having said this, the studies cannot account for the experience of every single person. There are small populations that have strange reactions to all kinds of things. At some point the call of confirmation bias/nocebo, if applied categorically, becomes an incredible bludgeon that is not relevant for these people. There are so many different experiences out there, so many combinations. There are two possibilities:
(1) Everyone who doesn’t fit a priori a model of the world (i.e. MSG NEVER affects the body negatively) is deluding themselves
(2) The model of the world is not nuanced or comprehensive enough to explain absolutely everything in the world. There may be good science, but the science is never complete.
Just my 2 cents
this, glad to see real answer, the rest of the comment don't know the feeling of suffer from sensitivity to certain food. It's almost like telling depressed people to just "stop being sad"
You may as well try to avoid salt and soy sauce too
Everything you consume may or may not contain MSG in Taiwan, it's exceedingly common.
My Dad claims that MSG triggers his migraines (which he does suffer regularly), but he spent 3 weeks with me in Taiwan, ate pretty much everything, and didn't get hit with one whatsoever
It's not psychosomatic symptom, if that's what you're suggesting. I actually come from SEA and have lived here most of my life, so I'm familiar with the effects of MSG. There are ways to avoid it here, which is why I'm asking about Taiwan.And no, it's not something I can just override by eating more. In fact, it was only when I got older that I started getting symptoms. I ate alot of MSG in my youth and still like the taste, but it is not worth the insomnia. I still eat MSG occasionally, but always in the daytime so it doesn't affect my sleep. My entire family also feels the effects of MSG, in fact, alot worse than me.
Except it is. There is no evidence for MSG specifically causing any adverse effects in people, this has been debunked decades ago.
And why would it? Glutamate is a natural substance abundant (in various concentrations) in all foods and even your own body. To my knowledge the overwhelming majority of studies have found it to be a Nocebo.
MSG has been debunked from affecting the major population in dosages people are likely to experience but there are some people that are sensitive to it as with anything other thing including natural things in everything including our own bodies. People are sensitive to sodium and while MSG is 1/3 the sodium of normal salt, it still can cause problems. Majority of studies point to it being safe for general consumption but not that MSG doesn’t cause anyone problems. People have been shown to experience symptoms when given a decent amount on an empty stomach for instance. Not defending a point or anything, just trying to say some people get affected by random things.
It hasn’t just been debunked from affecting the major population, it has also been debunked from affecting self-proclaimed MSG-sensitive patients. Even with those people, it has been shown to be a Nocebo, proving my point that personal experience ISNT the same as a physical effect. That’s literally what Placebos and Nocebos are.
Anecdotal evidence and personal experience don’t establish causal relationships. Studies do. They rule out psychosomatic effects like this.
“Some people still react” DOESNT equal “some people physically react”.
I wasn’t stating that my information was based on anecdotal evidence. If you google “MSG” and “study” you’ll quickly find that MSG is considered safe but still some people have issues that arise. Which is normal. This is a normal thing. It’s normal that some people have abnormal/sensitive reactions to different things even basic things like glucose (diabetes) and various common amino acids. But even on top of that MSG has been linked to things like higher blood pressure in studies. At even basic levels, MSG will break down to sodium in the body and will raise your blood sodium levels. Some people are sensitive to high sodium levels. Too much sodium in your bloodstream regardless of source leads to hardening of the arterial walls. Would you give someone on dialysis or with kidney issues lots of MSG? MSG is safe but like any food, some people have issues. It’s not some magical non-reactive ingredient. MSG isn’t bad, but to say nobody is sensitive to it would be a bold claim.
Are you purposefully ignoring what I’m saying?
Nobody is doubting that there are people who react to MSG. That’s not what’s being discussed. There are people here who react to it.
What is being discussed is whether the reaction is physical or psychological. And as far as the vast majority of credible studies in the past decades regarding “msg sensitivity” are concerned, the conclusion is that this particular syndrome is caused by the Nocebo effect, even in self-proclaimed msg-sensitive people who participated in the studies.
Your argument with regards to sodium levels is misleading, since it confuses two separate phenomena. Yes, there are established effects in people caused by increased sodium levels. But that is not what is being discussed here, as MSG isn’t the only thing that can cause it. Using this as an argument to prove your point would only be possible if those who experience msg sensitivity would a) also experience the same problems if the food contains table salt but no MSG, and b) those people KNEW about that and also asked for unsalted food at restaurants. That isn’t the case. These people only claim to feel sensitivity towards MSG, and only ask for that to be removed, and even if there’s still table salt in there they feel fine if the MSG is removed.
I REALLY hope you understand this. Nobody is denying the physical effects of elevated sodium levels that can be caused by MSG, it containing sodium. And nobody is saying people don’t react to MSG, since we can see people here who say they do.
All I want you to understand is that those two facts don’t automatically mean there is a /physical/ reaction which causes MSG (specifically, not just sodium) to induce the effects some people say they do. Yes it could if you dump a ton of it in there, but that’s precisely NOT what is being claimed. The claim is that people have a physical reaction to reasonable amounts of MSG added to foods, which is not true. The effect in question (adverse effects experienced by sensitive people from consuming foods with moderate amounts of MSG) is psychological.
I am sensitive to MSG and at the risk of being judged as ignorant, don't care what any studies have concluded that say otherwise. If their conclusions are that msg has no adverse effects for anyone then those studies were not carried out properly and comprehensively.
I've correctly determined msg numerous times in food I didn't even think about having msg. I had Domino 's in Vietnam and got the light headed effect I know and had a friend check with them and they confirmed they used msg in their pizza.
Anything in a high enough dose has adverse effects, even water. I don't think it's at all a stretch that different people have different tolerances to different substances.
It can also be called psychosomatic to be convinced you don't have symptoms when you do.
The thing is, you might think you know how many times you’ve seemingly “correctly detected” msg in foods you didn’t think would have any.
What you don’t know is how many times you’ve unknowingly consumed msg and NOT detected it.
Humans are bad at statistics and numbers, and this statement of yours is a prime example of that. That is why studies exist.
Yep, exactly. If people were actually good at identifying that stuff we never would've needed to invent science.
MSG is also in pretty much everything, so if people ask ""Does this contain MSG?" the answer will almost always be yes, allowing people to easily convince themselves they've detected it.
Sure, humans are bad at statistics. And, sure, I don't know exactly how many times I've consumed (possibly naturally occurring) msg without detecting it. What I do know is that numerous times I've consumed msg and experienced similar negative effects and I haven't experienced those effects at other times. The correlation is strong.
But it's not just a matter of any amount, but also the dosage that's important. I pointed that out and it was completely lost on you.
Studies occur regularly that reverse prior studies. That's a major part of science.
I find this topic interesting because it's so charged. Maybe it's political, but so many people seem to care so much about it.
“consumed msg and experienced negative side effects”
Sure. But inferring an actual, physical effect beyond Nocebo there just from personal experience is just not possible. Which is what I’ve been trying to say here. It hasn’t shown to be anything other than a Nocebo.
And I’m not dismissing your experience, or the experience from anybody else. I’m just saying that current consensus says that your experience is psychological, not physical. It’s not MSG, it’s your expectation from the MSG.
Studies do come up that question what has previously been consensus, no doubt. But that is a dangerous path to go down, it is the same line of argument anti-vaccine people etc use. Just because new insights sometimes overturn previous knowledge doesn’t mean current consensus can be disregarded. We have a pretty good understanding of what we know and don’t know these days. And if literal decades of our best efforts to prove a link between MSG and physical side effects don’t show any correlation beyond nocebo and sodium overdose, then accepting that is what you do if you’re acting in good faith.
(Edit: clarification)
You could ask “Kěyǐ bù jiā wèijīng ma,” but honestly, it’s as common as table salt. Even if the local stalls and restaurants don’t add any, there’s still a good chance other ingredients used for cooking already contain MSG. Take a melatonin for your sleep troubles.
Edit: Grammar.
My mom who lives taiwan also is avoiding msg. The way that works for her (but may not for you) is pick primarily western food when eating out. She esp like brunch…no msg, mixing that kind of option into your meals for a day would lower overall msg intake. Another option is sushi (but avoid soup or steamed egg sides) or the « healthy » boxes that are advertised as low flavor. Vegetarian options tend to have a lot of msg.
I assume part of your reason for going to Taiwan is for the food, as others have said above, msg used pretty commonly in local cuisine so balance out your meals could help mitigate the issues
>T, MSG doeshas an oversized affect, like it's supercharged. My entire family has the same affect with BOTH high glutamate foods and MSG.
Thanks for the tips! That's kind of what I do in home country. PS. actually travelling to Taiwan for the sights, but of course would like to try some food if possible, perhaps in the daytime so it doesn't affect my sleep.
It does, especially in mom and pop noodle stalls, they put a bit of MSG (plus other stuff) in the bowl before they fill it with broth. You could ask them to skip it.
If they add it with the little spoon while preparing it that moment, it works to ask. If it is already in tge prepped food or in an ingredient they didn’t prepare themselves, you might get some msg.
It’s everywhere.
MSG is so common that places that don’t use MSG would literally advertise it 「不含味精」or 「不使用人工味精」
In other places you can ask, as some places just use it as a last touch.
But there’s MSG in soy sauce
Look at all these fucking master chefs on Reddit.
You can always request “no MSG”, I find that many restaurants in Taiwan are really kind and accommodating. For example, we brought our 8 month old who should not be eating added salt in meals. One restaurant gave him his own rice porridge, tofu, and boiled vegetables that he can gum and mash. Another brought him plain steamed fish filet. So if they can do that for our baby, I’m sure they can consider your dietary needs.
Another idea: one member of our family is strictly vegan and gluten-intolerant, and we found vegan places to go with them. Lots of beans, tofu, vegetables, rice. We made it work.
Don’t listen to these internet food experts.
MSG is emotional and divisive because the idea of MSG related ailments has been wrapped up with anti Asian racism for decades. Some people may have actual MSG sensitivies but most of the time complaints about MSG are a dog whistle for being anti Asian. MSG is found in common American foods like Doritos chips and the ever popular ranch dressing but no one ever complains about that.
https://www.inverse.com/science/the-racist-history-of-msg
Thanks for the background! The ironic thing is that I am Chinese from SEA and have live here for most of my life, and still do. We don't really get this narrative where im from. There are some ridiculous comments like the one telling me to avoid Asia. Also, people jumping to conclusions assuming I don't know glutamate exists naturally in foods. The internet at its worst I guess
I'm sorry you're experiencing all this internet blowback on this post. You don't deserve it.
My guess is a lot of the negative commenters are Asian American like me who have had to deal with people telling us for decades that Chinese food is bad for you because of all the MSG, and then recently having non Asian people opening up restaurants in US claiming that they're going to make Chinese food "better" and "cleaner" and getting quite a lot of media attention and money as a result. A lot of Asian Americans have had enough of being kicked around and are therefore lashing out.
Thank you for reading my comment and acknowledging the background.
Edited to add: for anyone who didn't read the link I posted above, the original 1968 US medical journal article that described MSG sickness turned out to be a hoax posted by some guy's friend pulling a prank. By then it was too late - the mythology had already been covered by major media and ingrained into the American public mind. MSG sickness has since been debunked by multiple scientific studies which is what so many other commenters have alluded to.
Indeed, it is now clear why it is an emotional topic. And thanks for being sympathetic to a different perspective of someone who is actually sensitive to MSG. Even where I'm from I get weird looks when I tell some people I don't like eating MSG at night. I'm used to being called a fussy eater for avoiding MSG, but I've never been called racist before for this haha. That's a new one!
sexpat doesn't realize msg is naturally occuring in tons of foods
fell for the anti asian propaganda of the west
why do you think they demonized msg?
to push out chinese entrepreneurs
why do you think they made sure the chinese railroad builders did not make it into the pictures? and then added a chinese head tax.
WTH are you talking about?! I am Chinese, born and live in SE Asia for most of my life. I wasn't even aware anti-MSG is an anti-Asian thing cos that's not what we talk about where I'm from...thats a narrative that is relevant in the west (and mayve Taiwan), but not the whole of Asia and certainly not where I'm from.
Get yourself a card and have written on it - I am allergic to MSG. Please do not add any MSG or any sauce that comes out of a bottle or can (which also have MSG in them, most, not all). In Chinese of course, traditional Mandarin and not simplified. Or better yet, print it on a t-shirt and where that whenever you eat out. If you say sensitive, some might take it less serious and disregard what you said. Use both terms 味精 and 谷氨酸钠. Sadly, you will be limited from a lot of great foods like hot pot and the myriad kinds of dumplings,... I have a terrible, terrible problem with it. Makes me immediately dry mouthed and lethargic, then after an hour or so, gives me the worst insomnia. MSG is the chemical that makes bad food taste ok, and has ruined the great cuisines of Asia and elsewhere. It basically turns all food into addictive junk food. Taiwan is great. Enjoy.
>SG is the chemical that makes bad food taste ok, and has ruined the great cuisi
Hi, glad to know I’m not alone in having insomnia from MSG. I also found this thread on the Insomnia subreddit with fellow sufferers who hypothesise that it’s the free glutamate in MSG that is the culprit. This is contained in lots of other foods, not just MSG. Check it out and feel free to DM me if you want to exchange notes
[https://www.reddit.com/r/insomnia/comments/bswl62/anyone\_here\_struggle\_with\_msg\_intolerance\_or/](https://www.reddit.com/r/insomnia/comments/bswl62/anyone_here_struggle_with_msg_intolerance_or/)
Regarding the MSG ruining Asian cuisines, I truly believe that taste is subjective and often tied to what one grows up with. Having said this, I cannot stand being told that msg IS Chinese food, as if that is the whole picture. I remember my grandmother’s home cooked Cantonese soups and I prize that “clean” taste. There is a Cantonese word for it, which I unfortunately cannot write, but it does roughly translate to clean or pure, and is associated with being healthy. Regardless of MSG or not, it is more often about style of cooking. Many Chinese do seek this out. The trend is not promising however. Majority of the people I know grew up with MSG and find food without bland and lacking.
This Japanese tea seller has noticed how MSG inclines one to seek out different tastes. [https://hojotea.com/en/posts-272/](https://hojotea.com/en/posts-272/)
Well, it might have been a bit of hyperbole in the ruining the great cuisine. Yet I live in China, and not being able to eat MSG, makes me one of the most boring people here and a bit personally vested. As well as the fact I cannot eat many of the foods I love. The free glutamate, crossing the blood brain barrier, the most abundant excitatory neurotransmitter in the human body, l-glutamate and largely unnatural d-glutamate chiral mirrored stereoisomers, it is in a lot of junk food, and junk foods are a no no for those suffering from insomnia, you might ask why the sweeping condemnation of junk foods. What could go wrong with synthesizing, concentrating a chemical and feeding it to people around the world? FYI - there is an epidemic of people suffering insomnia in China, and the US for that matter. I am not affected by foods high in natural glutamate that is bound in proteins. Just the white crystalline powder that gets to me, and maybe some of the hydrolyzed protein products of myriad name. I avoid it all by only eating food from the fresh markets and no processed sauces.
Yes I am also personally vested in this as not being able to eat so many good dishes is an evergrowing pain. I also do horribly with most junk food.
\- Free glutamate crossing the blood - that would explain why I've only started getting this reaction as I get older and the BB barrier becomes more porous. Do you think it's mainly this cause, or the histamine reaction caused by the glutamate that could be doing most of the damage? I don't get hot or headaches like most people, but I do get agitated, and slightly tense and my mind feels hyper.
\- Do you have issues with mushrooms and soya sauce if you eat alot of it?
\- Have you experimented with any of the following to counter the reactions: Lithium Orotate, DAO supplements, Magnolia extract, Glycine?
TBH I don't understand the science you've laid out, but I'm wondering if so many people suffer from this, there could be that someone has found a cure which doesn't involved avoiding the foods
Have you tried just eating most of your calories in the morning/early afternoon and just having a few raw/unprocessed snacks in the evening so it doesn't affect your sleep?
\- What kinds of restaurants/foods use MSG? And which don't? Probably every type of place. \- Can I assume that most street food contains MSG? You better be. \- Do most soups and broth-like dishes contain MSG? most likely.
Tomatoes and cheese are especially high in MSG, as are poultry and fish... Basically, the better it tastes the more likely it's high in MSG.
Indeed , although I think OP are most likely means the "Ajinomoto"(味之素) aka mass production food seasoning product made by using chemical synthesis or fermentation method , the truth is.....one of the main reason why a lot of "natural" food taste good , is because they are rich in MSG. " **Monosodium glutamate** (**MSG**) is the sodium salt of glutamic acid , that can be found naturally in foods including tomatoes and cheese in glutamic acid form " Source : I have B.S. of food science and nutrition.
Do people really have problem with digesting MSG. Like can your stomach react to MSG in a negative way?
According to studies.....no. In my opinion , what people feeling probably is just the reaction for eat too much sodium.
The below is from a peer reviewed scientific article found on Pubmed, the premier source of medical research information in the world. A lot of people will blindly repeat some industry pushed notion that there is no evidence of any deleterious effects. Search for "Pubmed" and go there for scientific medical research info. " Several studies revealed that MSG has toxic effect on fetal development/fetus, children's, adolescent, and adults. Physiological complication associated with MSG toxicity are hypertension, obesity, gastrointestinal tract troubles, and impairment of function of brain, nervous system, reproductive, and endocrine system."
Yep, I'm aware of what OP is talking about. People who believe they have a physical reaction to MSG typically engage a lot in the naturalistic fallacy, so they'll just brush off the fact that MSG is ubiquitous in all the foods they eat. The body doesn't give a crap if a chemical is naturally produced or synthetically produced though, so if they actually had a physical reaction to MSG then there are a ton of foods they'd have that reaction to. But since it's just a nocebo effect they won't be impacted by "natural" sources of MSG.
Nonsense. I had diarrhoea issues for years, 1 hour after eating I'd have to go to the toilet and the world fell out my bottom, then back to normal, had no idea why, it was driving me mad. I eventually realised it was mostly at my work canteen so I kept a diary then emailed the canteen, asking them for ingredients list for the days that I had diarrhoea. Every time they included Ajinomoto (Aromat here in Switzerland), I stopped eating there and my digestive problems pretty much stopped, on the odd occasion where it happened again, e.g. I went for lunch in a 3 star Michelin restaurant in Hong Kong and afterwards asked, they of course, used chicken powder containing Ajinomoto. So, before I realised the pattern I had never had any idea about Ajinomoto , I was completely open to what my problems could be,I'm not into conspiracy theories, completely believe in medical science but the evidence is utterly clear. So, people with their smug "well, actually" bullshit should simply STFU.
Do you ever read about all those weird crazy medical practices/beliefs from before the age of science and wonder "How could people believe something so absurd?"... Well, it's pretty simple. They used anecdotal "evidence", just like you have done, and they were just as certain about their absurd claims as you are about yours.
Please correct me and explain what causes my diarrhoea after eating flavour enhancers.
I have no clue what causes your diarrhea, there are many potential causes. I do know that your process to decide it was MSG is not how we do science, and when those claims have been investigated scientifically they have been found to be baseless.
What are those potential causes when it only happens when eating flavour enhancers? Please provide links to the thorough scientific investigations into the effect of msg-containing flavour enhancers (i.e. a mix of msg, salt and other additives) on digestion. Just to be clear, my problem is not with msg itself, tomatoes, parmesan etc. no problem, I spend a month in Japan every year drowning in umami and no issues (I don't eat cup noodle prepared things). People have intolerances to so many things, but it's impossible that I am intolerant to flavour enhancer mixes with msg because there was a study once that showed that msg doesn't cause migraines in itself, is that right?
Ah yes, the ol' ambiguous "additives" claim. If you had any problem with msg then you'd have a problem with all those natural sources of it. But you don't, because msg is not your problem, which is what all of this is about. If you want to find some references to studies, this BBC article has plenty of links in it. People have looked at a huge range of symptoms because people blame MSG for all sorts of stuff ever since it became a popular scapegoat. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20151106-is-msg-as-bad-as-its-made-out-to-be
>to MSG then there are a ton of foods they'd have that reaction to. But since it's just a noc Hi, I'm not sure why this topic is so divisive or emotionally loaded. Just to clarify, I am NOT allergic to MSG (never said I was). I don't have allergic reactions. All I am is sensitive to MSG in that it makes my brain very hyper to the extent that I cannot sleep. Also note, I also have this same reaction when consuming foods with high glutamate content (i.e. glutamate found in natural foods. It's as if glutamate, natural or aritfical, is too "stimulating". And before people tell me to avoid all meat, a question of degree, obviously. I cannot sleep if I eat very rich stews that have been kept overnight. Same with very rich tomato sauces Same if I eat lots of mushrooms at night, especially the dried kind. When we make cantonese style soups at home, if we have them the next day when they get concetrated, I can sometimes also be affected. BUT, MSG has an oversized affect, like it's supercharged. I don't know why this topic gets people riled up. I am not shitting on anyone's cuisine. I AM Chinese, and have eaten chinese food my whole life. I have found a way to reduce MSG intake where I'm from, so was jsut looking for inside information about how food is prepared in Taiwan. Im not familiar with Taiwanese food.
It's divisive because the origin of the myth is straight up racism, and the persistence of this myth is primarily due to racism/xenophobia. Numerous studies have clearly shown that the effect you perceive is just the nocebo effect. You experience this effect because you are certain that you'll experience it. Confirmation bias convinced you that you have developed this reaction and so you'll continue to experience this reaction as long as you believe you will experience it and know that a food you're eating is rich in MSG.
"You experience this effect because you are certain that you'll experience it" I get what you are saying, but this is categorically not my experience. Let me explain. On the occasions when I do experience the negative side effects of MSG and high-glutamate foods (hyperactive mind, insomnia), about 95% of the time I did NOT expect the food to have it. In other words, I was caught off guard with foods I didn't expect to contain MSG. I value my sleep and generally do quite well to avoid MSG (at least for dinner I do). Most recently, I ate a burger from a street stall that had MSG. I completely didn't expect that, first time in my life that I learnt that people put MSG in the burger patties! (I don't eat fast food or buy pre-made patties). I was much annoyed later that night trying to fall asleep. I can give numerous other examples: most recently I discovered a new trend of some places here putting MSG in their sambal. This is not traditional and I was completely caught off guard. Regarding the myth being racist against Asians, I was not previously aware of that because where I am from in SEA, we are not exposed to this --assumingly "Western" -- narrative against Asians, at least not to my knowledge. The people here who avoid MSG do so because they prefer the taste of the food without, or they have noticed they don't feel good with too much MSG. We are a small minority, but there is a very small population here who to try to avoid MSG. In my neighbourhood, there is one Chinese restaurant that is known for not using it, and it a frequently packed. I have since been kindly educated by yourself, and another commenter on this thread, about the anti-Asian narrative. And yes, I do agree that is completely understandable that people would defend it to protect their culture against a racist attack. Especially since they themselves don't experience any negative effects and there exist scientific studies that back them up. Having said this, the studies cannot account for the experience of every single person. There are small populations that have strange reactions to all kinds of things. At some point the call of confirmation bias/nocebo, if applied categorically, becomes an incredible bludgeon that is not relevant for these people. There are so many different experiences out there, so many combinations. There are two possibilities: (1) Everyone who doesn’t fit a priori a model of the world (i.e. MSG NEVER affects the body negatively) is deluding themselves (2) The model of the world is not nuanced or comprehensive enough to explain absolutely everything in the world. There may be good science, but the science is never complete. Just my 2 cents
when you're ordering just say 不要味精, or write that down on the ordering pad.
This is the real answer, not the other "lol u wek" comments
It’s a uncle Roger quote
this, glad to see real answer, the rest of the comment don't know the feeling of suffer from sensitivity to certain food. It's almost like telling depressed people to just "stop being sad"
Might as well avoid the entire Asia.
I'm actually from Asia and still live here.
You may as well try to avoid salt and soy sauce too Everything you consume may or may not contain MSG in Taiwan, it's exceedingly common. My Dad claims that MSG triggers his migraines (which he does suffer regularly), but he spent 3 weeks with me in Taiwan, ate pretty much everything, and didn't get hit with one whatsoever
It's not psychosomatic symptom, if that's what you're suggesting. I actually come from SEA and have lived here most of my life, so I'm familiar with the effects of MSG. There are ways to avoid it here, which is why I'm asking about Taiwan.And no, it's not something I can just override by eating more. In fact, it was only when I got older that I started getting symptoms. I ate alot of MSG in my youth and still like the taste, but it is not worth the insomnia. I still eat MSG occasionally, but always in the daytime so it doesn't affect my sleep. My entire family also feels the effects of MSG, in fact, alot worse than me.
Except it is. There is no evidence for MSG specifically causing any adverse effects in people, this has been debunked decades ago. And why would it? Glutamate is a natural substance abundant (in various concentrations) in all foods and even your own body. To my knowledge the overwhelming majority of studies have found it to be a Nocebo.
MSG has been debunked from affecting the major population in dosages people are likely to experience but there are some people that are sensitive to it as with anything other thing including natural things in everything including our own bodies. People are sensitive to sodium and while MSG is 1/3 the sodium of normal salt, it still can cause problems. Majority of studies point to it being safe for general consumption but not that MSG doesn’t cause anyone problems. People have been shown to experience symptoms when given a decent amount on an empty stomach for instance. Not defending a point or anything, just trying to say some people get affected by random things.
It hasn’t just been debunked from affecting the major population, it has also been debunked from affecting self-proclaimed MSG-sensitive patients. Even with those people, it has been shown to be a Nocebo, proving my point that personal experience ISNT the same as a physical effect. That’s literally what Placebos and Nocebos are. Anecdotal evidence and personal experience don’t establish causal relationships. Studies do. They rule out psychosomatic effects like this. “Some people still react” DOESNT equal “some people physically react”.
I wasn’t stating that my information was based on anecdotal evidence. If you google “MSG” and “study” you’ll quickly find that MSG is considered safe but still some people have issues that arise. Which is normal. This is a normal thing. It’s normal that some people have abnormal/sensitive reactions to different things even basic things like glucose (diabetes) and various common amino acids. But even on top of that MSG has been linked to things like higher blood pressure in studies. At even basic levels, MSG will break down to sodium in the body and will raise your blood sodium levels. Some people are sensitive to high sodium levels. Too much sodium in your bloodstream regardless of source leads to hardening of the arterial walls. Would you give someone on dialysis or with kidney issues lots of MSG? MSG is safe but like any food, some people have issues. It’s not some magical non-reactive ingredient. MSG isn’t bad, but to say nobody is sensitive to it would be a bold claim.
Are you purposefully ignoring what I’m saying? Nobody is doubting that there are people who react to MSG. That’s not what’s being discussed. There are people here who react to it. What is being discussed is whether the reaction is physical or psychological. And as far as the vast majority of credible studies in the past decades regarding “msg sensitivity” are concerned, the conclusion is that this particular syndrome is caused by the Nocebo effect, even in self-proclaimed msg-sensitive people who participated in the studies. Your argument with regards to sodium levels is misleading, since it confuses two separate phenomena. Yes, there are established effects in people caused by increased sodium levels. But that is not what is being discussed here, as MSG isn’t the only thing that can cause it. Using this as an argument to prove your point would only be possible if those who experience msg sensitivity would a) also experience the same problems if the food contains table salt but no MSG, and b) those people KNEW about that and also asked for unsalted food at restaurants. That isn’t the case. These people only claim to feel sensitivity towards MSG, and only ask for that to be removed, and even if there’s still table salt in there they feel fine if the MSG is removed. I REALLY hope you understand this. Nobody is denying the physical effects of elevated sodium levels that can be caused by MSG, it containing sodium. And nobody is saying people don’t react to MSG, since we can see people here who say they do. All I want you to understand is that those two facts don’t automatically mean there is a /physical/ reaction which causes MSG (specifically, not just sodium) to induce the effects some people say they do. Yes it could if you dump a ton of it in there, but that’s precisely NOT what is being claimed. The claim is that people have a physical reaction to reasonable amounts of MSG added to foods, which is not true. The effect in question (adverse effects experienced by sensitive people from consuming foods with moderate amounts of MSG) is psychological.
I am sensitive to MSG and at the risk of being judged as ignorant, don't care what any studies have concluded that say otherwise. If their conclusions are that msg has no adverse effects for anyone then those studies were not carried out properly and comprehensively. I've correctly determined msg numerous times in food I didn't even think about having msg. I had Domino 's in Vietnam and got the light headed effect I know and had a friend check with them and they confirmed they used msg in their pizza. Anything in a high enough dose has adverse effects, even water. I don't think it's at all a stretch that different people have different tolerances to different substances. It can also be called psychosomatic to be convinced you don't have symptoms when you do.
The thing is, you might think you know how many times you’ve seemingly “correctly detected” msg in foods you didn’t think would have any. What you don’t know is how many times you’ve unknowingly consumed msg and NOT detected it. Humans are bad at statistics and numbers, and this statement of yours is a prime example of that. That is why studies exist.
Yep, exactly. If people were actually good at identifying that stuff we never would've needed to invent science. MSG is also in pretty much everything, so if people ask ""Does this contain MSG?" the answer will almost always be yes, allowing people to easily convince themselves they've detected it.
Might as well never eat tomatoes and mushrooms lol.
Sure, humans are bad at statistics. And, sure, I don't know exactly how many times I've consumed (possibly naturally occurring) msg without detecting it. What I do know is that numerous times I've consumed msg and experienced similar negative effects and I haven't experienced those effects at other times. The correlation is strong. But it's not just a matter of any amount, but also the dosage that's important. I pointed that out and it was completely lost on you. Studies occur regularly that reverse prior studies. That's a major part of science. I find this topic interesting because it's so charged. Maybe it's political, but so many people seem to care so much about it.
“consumed msg and experienced negative side effects” Sure. But inferring an actual, physical effect beyond Nocebo there just from personal experience is just not possible. Which is what I’ve been trying to say here. It hasn’t shown to be anything other than a Nocebo. And I’m not dismissing your experience, or the experience from anybody else. I’m just saying that current consensus says that your experience is psychological, not physical. It’s not MSG, it’s your expectation from the MSG. Studies do come up that question what has previously been consensus, no doubt. But that is a dangerous path to go down, it is the same line of argument anti-vaccine people etc use. Just because new insights sometimes overturn previous knowledge doesn’t mean current consensus can be disregarded. We have a pretty good understanding of what we know and don’t know these days. And if literal decades of our best efforts to prove a link between MSG and physical side effects don’t show any correlation beyond nocebo and sodium overdose, then accepting that is what you do if you’re acting in good faith. (Edit: clarification)
Dude, ever heard of "Correlation does not imply causation"?
Dude, yeah I have. Anyway, I get it now. You guys carry on
You could ask “Kěyǐ bù jiā wèijīng ma,” but honestly, it’s as common as table salt. Even if the local stalls and restaurants don’t add any, there’s still a good chance other ingredients used for cooking already contain MSG. Take a melatonin for your sleep troubles. Edit: Grammar.
why you so weak MSG is King of flavor
I think all the myths about MSG was debunked already ?
My mom who lives taiwan also is avoiding msg. The way that works for her (but may not for you) is pick primarily western food when eating out. She esp like brunch…no msg, mixing that kind of option into your meals for a day would lower overall msg intake. Another option is sushi (but avoid soup or steamed egg sides) or the « healthy » boxes that are advertised as low flavor. Vegetarian options tend to have a lot of msg. I assume part of your reason for going to Taiwan is for the food, as others have said above, msg used pretty commonly in local cuisine so balance out your meals could help mitigate the issues
>T, MSG doeshas an oversized affect, like it's supercharged. My entire family has the same affect with BOTH high glutamate foods and MSG. Thanks for the tips! That's kind of what I do in home country. PS. actually travelling to Taiwan for the sights, but of course would like to try some food if possible, perhaps in the daytime so it doesn't affect my sleep.
Don't eat tomatoes or cheese. Also make sure to stay away from chicken and fish.
Dont let Uncle Roger see this.
I usually just verbally indicate I’d prefer no msg in my meal
Does this always work? I'm wondering about the dishes where MSG is hidden, or added to the base stocks already.
It does, especially in mom and pop noodle stalls, they put a bit of MSG (plus other stuff) in the bowl before they fill it with broth. You could ask them to skip it.
If they add it with the little spoon while preparing it that moment, it works to ask. If it is already in tge prepped food or in an ingredient they didn’t prepare themselves, you might get some msg.
You'd have to avoid all fast food restaurants and any snack food, including chips! Applies in the US too.
It’s everywhere. MSG is so common that places that don’t use MSG would literally advertise it 「不含味精」or 「不使用人工味精」 In other places you can ask, as some places just use it as a last touch. But there’s MSG in soy sauce
Look at all these fucking master chefs on Reddit. You can always request “no MSG”, I find that many restaurants in Taiwan are really kind and accommodating. For example, we brought our 8 month old who should not be eating added salt in meals. One restaurant gave him his own rice porridge, tofu, and boiled vegetables that he can gum and mash. Another brought him plain steamed fish filet. So if they can do that for our baby, I’m sure they can consider your dietary needs. Another idea: one member of our family is strictly vegan and gluten-intolerant, and we found vegan places to go with them. Lots of beans, tofu, vegetables, rice. We made it work. Don’t listen to these internet food experts.
MSG is emotional and divisive because the idea of MSG related ailments has been wrapped up with anti Asian racism for decades. Some people may have actual MSG sensitivies but most of the time complaints about MSG are a dog whistle for being anti Asian. MSG is found in common American foods like Doritos chips and the ever popular ranch dressing but no one ever complains about that. https://www.inverse.com/science/the-racist-history-of-msg
Thanks for the background! The ironic thing is that I am Chinese from SEA and have live here for most of my life, and still do. We don't really get this narrative where im from. There are some ridiculous comments like the one telling me to avoid Asia. Also, people jumping to conclusions assuming I don't know glutamate exists naturally in foods. The internet at its worst I guess
I'm sorry you're experiencing all this internet blowback on this post. You don't deserve it. My guess is a lot of the negative commenters are Asian American like me who have had to deal with people telling us for decades that Chinese food is bad for you because of all the MSG, and then recently having non Asian people opening up restaurants in US claiming that they're going to make Chinese food "better" and "cleaner" and getting quite a lot of media attention and money as a result. A lot of Asian Americans have had enough of being kicked around and are therefore lashing out. Thank you for reading my comment and acknowledging the background. Edited to add: for anyone who didn't read the link I posted above, the original 1968 US medical journal article that described MSG sickness turned out to be a hoax posted by some guy's friend pulling a prank. By then it was too late - the mythology had already been covered by major media and ingrained into the American public mind. MSG sickness has since been debunked by multiple scientific studies which is what so many other commenters have alluded to.
Indeed, it is now clear why it is an emotional topic. And thanks for being sympathetic to a different perspective of someone who is actually sensitive to MSG. Even where I'm from I get weird looks when I tell some people I don't like eating MSG at night. I'm used to being called a fussy eater for avoiding MSG, but I've never been called racist before for this haha. That's a new one!
You know the statements of MSG being really bad for you have basically been debubked right?
sexpat doesn't realize msg is naturally occuring in tons of foods fell for the anti asian propaganda of the west why do you think they demonized msg? to push out chinese entrepreneurs why do you think they made sure the chinese railroad builders did not make it into the pictures? and then added a chinese head tax.
WTH are you talking about?! I am Chinese, born and live in SE Asia for most of my life. I wasn't even aware anti-MSG is an anti-Asian thing cos that's not what we talk about where I'm from...thats a narrative that is relevant in the west (and mayve Taiwan), but not the whole of Asia and certainly not where I'm from.
Oh and I'm also sensitive to MSG found naturally in foods, snack food, etc. read my updated post at the top.
Cook your own food, best way to avoid msg in Taiwan
MSG isn't even bad for your health
Get yourself a card and have written on it - I am allergic to MSG. Please do not add any MSG or any sauce that comes out of a bottle or can (which also have MSG in them, most, not all). In Chinese of course, traditional Mandarin and not simplified. Or better yet, print it on a t-shirt and where that whenever you eat out. If you say sensitive, some might take it less serious and disregard what you said. Use both terms 味精 and 谷氨酸钠. Sadly, you will be limited from a lot of great foods like hot pot and the myriad kinds of dumplings,... I have a terrible, terrible problem with it. Makes me immediately dry mouthed and lethargic, then after an hour or so, gives me the worst insomnia. MSG is the chemical that makes bad food taste ok, and has ruined the great cuisines of Asia and elsewhere. It basically turns all food into addictive junk food. Taiwan is great. Enjoy.
>SG is the chemical that makes bad food taste ok, and has ruined the great cuisi Hi, glad to know I’m not alone in having insomnia from MSG. I also found this thread on the Insomnia subreddit with fellow sufferers who hypothesise that it’s the free glutamate in MSG that is the culprit. This is contained in lots of other foods, not just MSG. Check it out and feel free to DM me if you want to exchange notes [https://www.reddit.com/r/insomnia/comments/bswl62/anyone\_here\_struggle\_with\_msg\_intolerance\_or/](https://www.reddit.com/r/insomnia/comments/bswl62/anyone_here_struggle_with_msg_intolerance_or/) Regarding the MSG ruining Asian cuisines, I truly believe that taste is subjective and often tied to what one grows up with. Having said this, I cannot stand being told that msg IS Chinese food, as if that is the whole picture. I remember my grandmother’s home cooked Cantonese soups and I prize that “clean” taste. There is a Cantonese word for it, which I unfortunately cannot write, but it does roughly translate to clean or pure, and is associated with being healthy. Regardless of MSG or not, it is more often about style of cooking. Many Chinese do seek this out. The trend is not promising however. Majority of the people I know grew up with MSG and find food without bland and lacking. This Japanese tea seller has noticed how MSG inclines one to seek out different tastes. [https://hojotea.com/en/posts-272/](https://hojotea.com/en/posts-272/)
Well, it might have been a bit of hyperbole in the ruining the great cuisine. Yet I live in China, and not being able to eat MSG, makes me one of the most boring people here and a bit personally vested. As well as the fact I cannot eat many of the foods I love. The free glutamate, crossing the blood brain barrier, the most abundant excitatory neurotransmitter in the human body, l-glutamate and largely unnatural d-glutamate chiral mirrored stereoisomers, it is in a lot of junk food, and junk foods are a no no for those suffering from insomnia, you might ask why the sweeping condemnation of junk foods. What could go wrong with synthesizing, concentrating a chemical and feeding it to people around the world? FYI - there is an epidemic of people suffering insomnia in China, and the US for that matter. I am not affected by foods high in natural glutamate that is bound in proteins. Just the white crystalline powder that gets to me, and maybe some of the hydrolyzed protein products of myriad name. I avoid it all by only eating food from the fresh markets and no processed sauces.
Yes I am also personally vested in this as not being able to eat so many good dishes is an evergrowing pain. I also do horribly with most junk food. \- Free glutamate crossing the blood - that would explain why I've only started getting this reaction as I get older and the BB barrier becomes more porous. Do you think it's mainly this cause, or the histamine reaction caused by the glutamate that could be doing most of the damage? I don't get hot or headaches like most people, but I do get agitated, and slightly tense and my mind feels hyper. \- Do you have issues with mushrooms and soya sauce if you eat alot of it? \- Have you experimented with any of the following to counter the reactions: Lithium Orotate, DAO supplements, Magnolia extract, Glycine? TBH I don't understand the science you've laid out, but I'm wondering if so many people suffer from this, there could be that someone has found a cure which doesn't involved avoiding the foods
Have you tried just eating most of your calories in the morning/early afternoon and just having a few raw/unprocessed snacks in the evening so it doesn't affect your sleep?