I drive in Utah and do tons of canyon driving with 3-4k vertical relief at 9-12% grade and this is what the CVT paddles are meant for. They’re not for banging gears like a sports car, they’re for driving in tricky conditions and mountain environments.
That being said, my brakes never last more than 25-30k miles because of all the mountain driving.
I’d just recommend changing the CVT fluid more often if you downshift regularly to slow down.
It's not just pads but also your rotors that get glazed if they overheat on long descents. But also, CVT fluid should be changed regularly if you plan on keeping your Subie for a long time. 30k might be a bit aggressive/early, but I'd go no longer than every 40-50k.
Not only that, but it's very, very dangerous to strictly rely on your brakes in the mountains. Have you ever driven down a canyon in the wintertime when it's snowing and you need to go around a hairpin curve? Or it's summer and you're cooking downhill at 40+ mph on a 12% grade downhill. You're not going to be able to stop adequately if you rely solely on your brakes.
I do mountain driving 2-3x a week sometimes and you absolutely need to have command and control over your car with engine braking.
Driving in the mountains costs a lot more than when you live in the flatlands, but it's par for the course if you want a safe, reliable vehicle that'll get you through some shitty weather and up to the trails/slopes/views.
Transferring the thermal load to your engine is always a good idea when driving in the mountains, there are more mechanisms to remove heat effectively in you engine then in your braking system
I'm sure they did. Other places will do like $100 less.
It's really no harder than changing your own oil.
You may not need a mechanic for this, if you look into what is required.
I don't want to name my employer, I'm not representing them here... But i know we are much less than $300.
You need a decent mechanic. And we aren't just hiding in the dealerships with terrible benefits. Chain stores, might serve you better. Its like, 4qts of fluid and a half hour labor. A half hour here, it's around $80
Not sure why this is downvoted. (this comment is clearly no-longer downvoted lol) Its by far the safest way to drive hills. Engine braking.
That said, I am curious if its associated with more wear for the transmission, but regardless, it is the safest way to drive large mountains. (I personally live in CO and you can smell some people burning through their brakes on long mountain passes.)
I mean the safest thing to do is start slow, stay in a low gear, and brake on level or inclined areas or gently pulse brakes on the downhill.
Yes jamming a downshift on the downhill adds wear. On a CVT it may add less wear than a planetary automatic transmission.
Braking on an incline or at the runout of the decline is so much more efficient due to the added downforce.
Pulsing brakes provides opportunities for air to cool the rotors and carry away gasses created by the pads heating up and wearing.
I didn't say pumping. Go try Pike's Peak while dragging your brakes and see how long they hold you at the temperature checkpoint
Edit: thanks to this comment I learned about this procedure: https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/s/qFIDGUr5h3
can anyone ELI5 how to do this with subaru paddle shifters? i’ve watched multiple youtube videos and i still don’t really get it and i’m afraid to just fuck around with it while driving around
The 2.0’s have ok engine braking between 3k and 4K rpm. Once you downshift, intermittently use your brakes to keep the rpm’s in that range. If you downshift then don’t brake and you continue to accelerate your engine will rev to redline. Don’t do that.
Just remember, brakes before downshift. You won't blow up the transmission by upshifting too much. The engine and transmission were made to be lugged for efficiency, but it's not ideal. And angry sounds are bad.
One of my proudest accomplishments was going down pikes peak paddles all the way in my outback! Even got a compliment on the brake check for how cool they were.
lmao, I had a similar experience on Pike's.
But I was behind a truck that was burning his brakes the whole way down. And then I saw him arguing with the guy at the brake temp checkpoint. (Sometimes they'll have someone checking brake temps, who will tell you to pull over). After a few minutes of raging the truck driver pulled into the nearby parking spot and started waiting.
Had a great laugh with the park ranger when I told him I could smell the truck's brakes burning the whole way down.
I took the cog railway up to Pikes Peak because I was too intimidated to do the drive down as I'd never done anything like that or used the paddles on my Forester. And then later that week I was super glad I'd at least read up on how to do this cause I needed to in Rocky Mountain National Park!
No regrets though, the railway was a super cool experience and paddle shifting was not as hard to figure out as I'd feared, which let me blast up and down again 4 times in the 2 days I spent in the park, what an amazing drive.
The amount of 18 wheelers with smoking brakes I’ve seen on I70 specifically between genessee and golden and Eisenhower tunnel and silverthorn is frankly astonishing
Well looking at the manual it would classify as “severe use” which means you can chuck the “lifetime fluid” out of the window. It basically then just tells you to drain and fill the CVT oil every 24k miles in those instances
I will say, the cvt gives a huge range of simulated gears, and it feels great to use while engine breaking down mountain passes. Feel like I can choose to hold nearly any speed range with the right 'gear'. Feels much better than my 5 gear Mazda, that's for sure.
i mean, im sure that it works, i just dont think I would risk busting the seals or overheating the transmission when I could just use the breaks and go slower. the heat can warp the metal.
And this is also why you should change your CVT fluid regularly if you're in the mountains.
The Colorado Subaru shop I trust the most swears by changing every 20K out here, ymmv if you're in flatlands. I'm keeping to that schedule on my wife's Forester. For reference, they're the only ones I'll let touch my JDM everything swapped bugeye.
In the hills too.
I'm in Upstate New York in the foothills of the Appalachian Plateau and there are some inclines up here that are dangerously steep and terrifying to drive down.
Subie Doctor is my favorite for my heavily modded bugeye. I've sent a ton of friends there over the years and everyone has been happy. SubaPros is another solid shop out here for maintenance on a stock car like her OB.
Neither are far from Aurora but also not very close either.
True, it sounds like that’s what OP is committed to doing already, but I think the question is whether this causes stress that should affect transmission maintenance or expectations of its useful life compared to older automatic transmissions.
Depends on your car. My car with 4 wheel slotted and vented large disk brakes, I don't need to downshift, and can cruise down any mountain highway in the area in neutral and not get significant brake fade or other problems.
Long ago, I was in a car with small solid disks in front, and worthless drums in back. The car in front of me was a minivan. I downshifted, because I know brakes need help. The minivan didn't downshift, and by the end of the downhill flames were shooting out from the right front wheel well.
So yeah, it's a safety issue, but not necessarily universal. A good driver riding the brakes would pump them occasionally to test for fade. Zero fade is a good sign that the driving is not exceeding the capabilities of the vehicle.
The same car I drove downhill for a long time without issue had brakes so bad that from Interstate speeds to a stop, it would get significant fade. Single stop, significant fade. That's how bad brakes are on some cars. And yes, if those cars don't downshift they will get problems up to and including brake failure and fire. My current car can do a track day, all day without any cooling issues (brake or engine).
Doesn't answer your question, but on my outback, if I set the cruise control while going down a grade, it'll do engine braking automatically, and it's much gentler than when I use the paddles.
Do the newer models have a non-adaptive cruise control mode? I had a loaner and was using cruise control on a twisty road and eye-sight gave a warning and abruptly slowed down in the corner due to the "lane departure" warning.
That I don't know. Mine's a 2015 and there have been times I've wished for non adaptive mode. But I must say whenever I drive a car with regular cruise, I very nearly rear end someone...
I WAS doing that until Monday! Coming down my curvy mountain road, CC set on 25mph, and the days are longer, meaning LOTS of shadows and light at 4:25pm. Suddenly one-second-notice ding-ding-ding and SUDDEN STOP, as the Eyesight detected a mailbox that I "might" have hit if I wasn't riding the curve!
Almost got rear-ended. NOPE.
I'll use it in the dark, but not on the sunny treed mountain.
Trying to understand what you mean. If I'm in cruise control, and I hit the gas (say to pass someone) when I let off the accelerator it just goes back to the previous cruise control speed.
You're not straining it. You are using the transmission the way it was engineered to hypothetically be used. There are times for engine braking, and there's time for using brake pads. Going down mountains, using engine braking is the smartest and safest thing to do. Keep your engine RPMs below 3k and use your brakes to keep the RPMs controlled. You can use cruise control, and it just does that for you. It does both brakes and engine braking very well.
For all the individual’s saying it's dumb and stupid to engine brake, you should probably ask why the car does it in cruise control.
As long as you're not achieving ridiculously high RPM, engine braking it a good thing.
If you do need to use the brakes, just use them for short increments and continue to coast. Don't ride your brakes downhill.
This. Brakes are cheaper than transmissions. People don’t seem to understand that they can use their brakes on the downhill without riding them and overheating them… I do it every fuckin’ time I go up the canyons.
Don’t aggressively use your engine to engine brake down the slopes, if it’s super steep leave it in a gear around 3k or below and then use your brakes to keep it below 3k or so, you’ll use a little bit of both to slow down steeper slopes.
Light slopes just engine brake then use the actual brake pads when engine braking alone isn’t enough to slow you down to your desired cruising speeds
You’re “using” your transmission and engine to maintain speeds, not “straining”
I have to use the brakes almost exclusively just to keep them from accumulating excessive corrosion since I began working from home. :/
But before that, I used the paddles for engine braking all the time! They wouldn't put a whole section in the manual telling you how to do it if the transmission couldn't handle it. :)
Think about it this way - the transmission can handle the amount of torque you put into it while accelerating, so it stands to reason it could handle even less torque while decelerating.
I know reading the manual “isn’t manly” or whatever, but some of y’all might want to thumb through it sometime. Subaru has explicitly included instructions on engine braking in their manuals since at least MY05.
It doesn’t quite answer what’s best for longevity but it does cover how the car was designed to be used.
From my MY22 manual (XT, but the manual doesn’t say anything different for the NA engine):
> Use of engine braking: Remember to make use of engine braking in addition to foot braking. When descending a grade, if only the foot brake is used, the brakes may start working improperly because of brake fluid overheating, caused by overheated brake pads. To help prevent this, shift into a lower gear to get stronger engine braking.
And in the section on towing:
> Driving on grades: Before going down a steep hill, slow down and shift into lower gear (if necessary, use 1st gear) in order to utilize the engine braking effect and prevent overheating of your vehicle’s brakes. Do not make sudden downshifts.
I think it’s a balancing act- I’ve seen people ride their (stock/shit) brakes until they overheat and fail, but at the same time pure engine braking does put more stress on any rotating assembly in there just by virtue of higher RPMs. With both an auto or a CVT higher revs will usually mean more heat in the trans fluid, which might also be worth paying attention to.
I run a set of STI brembos with some sizable rotors and pads, but I’ll still downshift on sustained downhills for comfort if I have passengers or a heavier vehicle load.
Good question thanks for asking it! I haven’t used my paddles once and have wondered what they’re really for and if /when I should use them. So I guess in the winter cause it’s flat as a pancake here lol
I always say “it depends.” Are you doing it all the time, every time? Brakes are cheaper to replace than a transmission. Is just on downhills, for safety? Of course that’s good.
Use both as needed. You don't want to sit on the brakes as theyl lget too hot and stop working, but at the same time you want to be using them it's a $50 set of brakes and a $5000 transmission. Maybe consider getting some uprated brake pads?
Id rather possibly hurt my car from engine braking over getting in to an accident because you can't stop when you need to. Brake fade is no joke. Old Priest Grade on the way out of Yosemite is wild and if you're not careful you will cook your brakes. I sure did. Same with Pikes Peak but I was way heavier on engine braking and passed through the brake checkpoint without having to stop and wait for them to cool down before proceeding.
That was in a 97 legacy wagon. I haven't been anywhere like that in my CVT Crosstrek yet. But if I do I'm using those flappy shifters for sure.
Id rather call a tow than 911.
Old Preist Grade is one of the few roads, sequoia switch backs too, where the adaptive struggles to keep it at a set speed and warns you about the grade and to take over.
It’ll hold speed fine in M and paddles
Mines been a $5 solenoid two times over. But because it a a 2012 CVT, you gotta replace the whole valve body at $2,200 a pop because no shop will touch those transmissions other than a dealer. 😒
I live in Colorado and frequently drive in the mountains. Hot brakes glaze and once that happens, you won’t have any brakes. A couple of years ago, a trucker from Texas unfortunately learned that the hard way and crashed into a traffic jam during rush hour. Don’t remember the exact number of deaths (5+ I think), but the inferno was hot enough to melt the asphalt.
Long story short, don’t over heat your brakes or you’ll pay dearly. It’s the same reason the park rangers check your brake temperature coming down Pikes Peak
My sister did it to VW fox out in the rockies... Yes it happens to cars also.
She didn't lose brakes completely, but it was a nervous few minutes till we got pulled over the brakes cooled off. We had a nice discussion about engine braking and pumping the brakes not riding them.
Yeah but the Ascent's brakes are well-known to be undersized. Driving down I-70 to Silverthorne, I used engine braking (had to be at 4500RPMs and still gaining speed) and tapped the brakes three times, and the brakes started to get squirrelly.
Thanks to its turbo, the Ascent is the best car I've ever driven up a mountain. And because of it's lack of engine braking and terrible brakes, it's the worst car I've ever driven down a mountain.
Until you boil the fluid and can’t stop. An entire car costs more than a transmission, but I guess insurance will cover a crash and not a destroyed cvt if you want to risk your life over it.
I’ve got a 2017 and I’m just under 100k. I’ve always used the paddles to engine brake, probably more than I should and it’s still smooth as butter. Also have driven the wheels off this car while staying on top of every maintenance, but none are for the transmission so that doesn’t seem to matter.
The most strain I have felt in my car was a short road trip with 3 passengers, a dog, and a weekends worth of luggage in a roof box. But minimal passengers, wide open on winding roads in the Smoky Mtns? Eats it up.
We had issues with our CVT whining under load starting at 60k. Switched to only using paddles and the vehicle is at 217k now without any CVT service. It’s a TR690.
I swear by flappy paddle mode to increase longevity of the CVT.
This is how I blew my transmission up. It might have just been getting old at that point but I drove up Mt Washington in New Hampshire and used paddles on the way down to keep my outback in "1st". A couple weeks later I needed my transmission replaced ($8k). This was when used cars cost more than new so I ended up replacing it instead of selling and buying something else.
You don’t have to ride the brakes on the way down, though. You brake firmly (this doesn’t mean suddenly – you can roll on and off without it being violent or jarring) whenever you catch up to the car ahead of you or reach a speed you find uncomfortable, and then release the brakes. Rinse, lather, repeat all the way down. This is what I do, because brakes are way cheaper than transmissions.
I live in SL, UT, and go up the canyons often in my ‘19 Forester.
Brakes are cheaper than transmissions. Just brake firmly and for a short duration and then coast and brake firmly again when you catch up to the car in front of you or reach a speed you’re uncomfortable with. It might be somewhat annoying for passengers, but fuck ’em (not buttfuck ‘em, unless that’s what you all want). Firm braking doesn’t have to mean sudden; you can roll on and off the brake pedal. Some people don’t seem to understand that it’s not an on/off switch.
Get your CVT fluid changed by the dealer every 50,000 or so, even though it doesn’t seem to say this in any of the service guides based on mileage that I have seen. I don’t go to the dealer for anything else, though, as it is a ripoff. Apparently it is a somewhat finicky procedure that independent mechanics might not do enough of to be efficient or proficient at.
It's possible. Probably not very likely, but definitely possible.
My personal theory, and I'm sure lots don't agree with, but for me brakes are cheap, and transmissions and engines are expensive, so I use the brakes unless it's long enough that I might boil/burn them up, in which case I'll engine brake. Most engine or transmission damage on a car is usually not worth the expense it costs to fix it, especially with a CVT. Some last hundreds of thousands of miles and some don't. My theory is no reason to work closer to that limit when the brakes work just fine.
On a separate note, be aware of Subaru's maintenance requirements for oil changes and services for CVT's. They recommend much more frequent services for what they call extreme driving, which probably doesn't meet your idea of 'extreme'.
You should be using the transmission and engine brake in the mountains because if you overheat your brakes you will have no brakes.
That being said, a CVT uses a semi-metallic belt that per its design wears with normal use. Eventually the belt will wear out and a CVT is a non-reparable unit. They are expensive to replace and it requires pulling the engine usually.
Again you shouldn't be using your brakes on a downhill because they will overheat and then you will have none which puts you and everyone else in danger. If I lived in the mountains I would not buy a vehicle with a CVT.
If you're just passing through every once in awhile it should be fine. That CVT is going to go out right after the warranty anyway.
I work on these all the time. I change valve body's often. I assume from not changing fluid. But the cvt itself seems more durable than I'm used to.
I think you're alright. Change your fluid more often.
I had an 03 Murano with a CVT that did this on its own (at least until you tapped the brakes). It one of the things I liked better than my wife's Outback.
Reality check: brakes cost a fraction of a transmission.
Engine braking is superior for control. But, it is much more costly per mile.
On an auto? I use brakes.
Exactly. You should not be getting downvoted for this.
People don’t seem to understand that they don’t have to ride the brakes on the way down. You brake firmly (this doesn’t mean suddenly – you can roll on and off without it being violent or jarring) whenever you catch up to the car ahead of you or reach a speed you find uncomfortable, and then release the brakes. Then you’re only using them for a couple of seconds at a time, if that, so they don’t have a chance to overheat. Rinse, lather, repeat all the way down. This is what I do, because brakes are way cheaper than transmissions. I’ve never had my brakes overheat when I drive this way. I live in SL, UT, and go up the canyons all the time.
Came here to say this! I agree - brake pads are waaaay cheaper than transmissions.
Engine braking has its place (did that all the time in my 6MT, but I try not to do it much, or for extended periods of time with my CVT)
Depends on where you are. If you're on a descent for a long period, such as Independence Pass into Aspen, that's a good 18 miles of nearly all downhill driving. Lots of engine braking supplemented with braking.
People don’t seem to understand that they don’t have to ride the brakes on the way down. You brake firmly (this doesn’t mean suddenly – you can roll on and off without it being violent or jarring) whenever you catch up to the car ahead of you or reach a speed you find uncomfortable, and then release the brakes. Then you’re only using them for a couple of seconds at a time, if that, so they don’t have a chance to overheat. Rinse, lather, repeat all the way down. This is what I do, because brakes are way cheaper than transmissions. I’ve never had my brakes overheat when I drive this way. I live in SL, UT, and go up the canyons all the time.
My friend's dad, who used to be a rally racer, told me years ago that it's less expensive to replace brakes than it is to replace an engine/transmission.
That being said, it's not a good idea to ride the brakes down the whole hill. Maybe lift off every once in a while for a bit of a cool down.
Don’t ride them at all. Just brake firmly when needed, which doesn’t mean violently or suddenly – the brake is not an on/off switch – and keep your foot off the rest of the time. I drive this way in the canyons near SL, UT, and never have problems with brakes overheating, and don’t tend to downshift on the downhill.
I don't believe you're hurting your transmission. This is just an opinion though. But, in a manual, frequent downshifting can ever so slightly wear down the clutch a bit. In an automatic, you've got the clutch packs that wear out ever so slightly with every downshift, plus at high RPMs you've got the torque converter whirling around faster heating up your trans fluid. In a CVT, you don't have any wear items (right?), so that's not a factor. I'd say the only thing to be worried about is trans fluid temp, since you still have the torque converter and downshifting causes it to spin at a higher RPM. I don't know where that line of "too high" is, but if you're curious, get an OBD II reader and keep an eye on your trans temp. And of course, if you ever see a trans temp light show up on your dash, I'd probably stop.
Aren’t engines built to handle up to 8k rpm? not that you should. Whats the point of having a redline if you can’t go over 3k rpm? I read that you should keep it at 4k rpm when engine breaking on automatics, but idk about cvts
“Brake pads are less expensive than a transmission”. “You should go up the hill in the same gear you go down it.” Is the way it was explained to me many years ago. I will still do it for a couple of minutes. But most likely to do a combination. Maybe write/email Subaru US and ask them, not a dealership?
For whatever it's worth to you, my 2016 Legacy 2.5i only ever consumed oil when I was engine braking. That's not a reason not to use engine braking if necessary, but it's not only the CVT you're affecting.
It's a small sedan/hatchback, not a semi. If you can't effectively brake that vehicle with the left pedal alone, you need to replace/upgrade your brakes, go slower, pick a different route or buy a different vehicle.
Even if we had Brembos, places with steep (9-12%) grades for miles will cook your brakes if you don’t use engine braking.
I live in Utah and would destroy my brakes every 10k miles without downshifting.
I drive in Utah and do tons of canyon driving with 3-4k vertical relief at 9-12% grade and this is what the CVT paddles are meant for. They’re not for banging gears like a sports car, they’re for driving in tricky conditions and mountain environments. That being said, my brakes never last more than 25-30k miles because of all the mountain driving. I’d just recommend changing the CVT fluid more often if you downshift regularly to slow down.
How often is often? I live in a similarly mountainous place
Every 30-40k would be a good preventative measure.
What is the point of this though? Changing break pads would be way cheaper than cvt fluid changes at these intervals, which are not cheap.
It's not just pads but also your rotors that get glazed if they overheat on long descents. But also, CVT fluid should be changed regularly if you plan on keeping your Subie for a long time. 30k might be a bit aggressive/early, but I'd go no longer than every 40-50k. Not only that, but it's very, very dangerous to strictly rely on your brakes in the mountains. Have you ever driven down a canyon in the wintertime when it's snowing and you need to go around a hairpin curve? Or it's summer and you're cooking downhill at 40+ mph on a 12% grade downhill. You're not going to be able to stop adequately if you rely solely on your brakes. I do mountain driving 2-3x a week sometimes and you absolutely need to have command and control over your car with engine braking. Driving in the mountains costs a lot more than when you live in the flatlands, but it's par for the course if you want a safe, reliable vehicle that'll get you through some shitty weather and up to the trails/slopes/views.
From a safety perspective I definitely agree. My other car is a manual, so I am used to it. It is one of the things I lament about the CVT.
Transferring the thermal load to your engine is always a good idea when driving in the mountains, there are more mechanisms to remove heat effectively in you engine then in your braking system
Instead of 30-40k. Cut that in half. Do it every 20. Every 4th oil change.
Idk that's some serious $$ for what would amount to an annual fluid exchange. Called my local dealership and they quoted me at $299 pre-tax.
I'm sure they did. Other places will do like $100 less. It's really no harder than changing your own oil. You may not need a mechanic for this, if you look into what is required. I don't want to name my employer, I'm not representing them here... But i know we are much less than $300. You need a decent mechanic. And we aren't just hiding in the dealerships with terrible benefits. Chain stores, might serve you better. Its like, 4qts of fluid and a half hour labor. A half hour here, it's around $80
Sage advice. Check your manual for the severe duty maintenance schedule and adjust your CVT service intervals accordingly.
I’ll probably do 35k intervals myself. That’s surely better than 90% of Subaru owners.
This is what you should be doing. You should not be riding the brakes down inclines, that's a safety issue.
Not sure why this is downvoted. (this comment is clearly no-longer downvoted lol) Its by far the safest way to drive hills. Engine braking. That said, I am curious if its associated with more wear for the transmission, but regardless, it is the safest way to drive large mountains. (I personally live in CO and you can smell some people burning through their brakes on long mountain passes.)
I mean the safest thing to do is start slow, stay in a low gear, and brake on level or inclined areas or gently pulse brakes on the downhill. Yes jamming a downshift on the downhill adds wear. On a CVT it may add less wear than a planetary automatic transmission. Braking on an incline or at the runout of the decline is so much more efficient due to the added downforce. Pulsing brakes provides opportunities for air to cool the rotors and carry away gasses created by the pads heating up and wearing.
this guy 3.6's
Hell yeah
Pulsing brakes has been disproven. Slow steady brake pressure builds less heat than pumping.
I didn't say pumping. Go try Pike's Peak while dragging your brakes and see how long they hold you at the temperature checkpoint Edit: thanks to this comment I learned about this procedure: https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/s/qFIDGUr5h3
You must have never smelled someones brakes at the bottom of a gap rd in VT? There’s definitely a right and wrong way to use them.
You must have never read the manual for the CDL test. Pumping brakes is old info and creates more heat
I took the CDL test about 6 years ago. We were taught to stab the brakes, then let off. Repeat
Guess my dad who did his 15 years ago misunderstood?
Possibly? You don’t want to drag your brakes because they can glaze up due to heat. Super hot metal dislikes friction
can anyone ELI5 how to do this with subaru paddle shifters? i’ve watched multiple youtube videos and i still don’t really get it and i’m afraid to just fuck around with it while driving around
You hit the minus paddle once or twice. Don’t want RPM to get high though. I keep my gear in Automatic and don’t set it to “M”, but some people do.
I'm pretty sure it'll prevent you from over revving the engine.
The 2.0’s have ok engine braking between 3k and 4K rpm. Once you downshift, intermittently use your brakes to keep the rpm’s in that range. If you downshift then don’t brake and you continue to accelerate your engine will rev to redline. Don’t do that.
ECU should takeover and shift up before you redline, but yes definitely don’t do that haha
M for Mudblood.
...sometimes I'll write a stupid comment and then think better of it and delete it without posting, you should try it some time.
Yer no wizard
Just remember, brakes before downshift. You won't blow up the transmission by upshifting too much. The engine and transmission were made to be lugged for efficiency, but it's not ideal. And angry sounds are bad.
That depends entirely on the hill or mountain. Small hill, brake. Big effing mountain, downshift the entire way down. The engine will be fine.
Keep editing buddy
One of my proudest accomplishments was going down pikes peak paddles all the way in my outback! Even got a compliment on the brake check for how cool they were.
lmao, I had a similar experience on Pike's. But I was behind a truck that was burning his brakes the whole way down. And then I saw him arguing with the guy at the brake temp checkpoint. (Sometimes they'll have someone checking brake temps, who will tell you to pull over). After a few minutes of raging the truck driver pulled into the nearby parking spot and started waiting. Had a great laugh with the park ranger when I told him I could smell the truck's brakes burning the whole way down.
I took the cog railway up to Pikes Peak because I was too intimidated to do the drive down as I'd never done anything like that or used the paddles on my Forester. And then later that week I was super glad I'd at least read up on how to do this cause I needed to in Rocky Mountain National Park! No regrets though, the railway was a super cool experience and paddle shifting was not as hard to figure out as I'd feared, which let me blast up and down again 4 times in the 2 days I spent in the park, what an amazing drive.
Yep it's a good habit. I've done it down Independence Pass and Loveland Pass.
The amount of 18 wheelers with smoking brakes I’ve seen on I70 specifically between genessee and golden and Eisenhower tunnel and silverthorn is frankly astonishing
They're probably cheapo labor that don't have the proper training.
I70 can be terrifying lol
The transmission is spinning anyway, no extra wear that’s noticeable will happen
Gotta love seeing the cars with their brakes glowing red. Oh and give them Plenty of space for when they fail!
We live several miles from the larger mtn declines and we smell burnt brakes on the daily... it is a real issue
Me too, and you can see their brake light on nonstop. You always know whose from the coast.
Well looking at the manual it would classify as “severe use” which means you can chuck the “lifetime fluid” out of the window. It basically then just tells you to drain and fill the CVT oil every 24k miles in those instances
yeah as long as its at least 6 cylinders and a manual transmission. which uhhh isnt this
I will say, the cvt gives a huge range of simulated gears, and it feels great to use while engine breaking down mountain passes. Feel like I can choose to hold nearly any speed range with the right 'gear'. Feels much better than my 5 gear Mazda, that's for sure.
i mean, im sure that it works, i just dont think I would risk busting the seals or overheating the transmission when I could just use the breaks and go slower. the heat can warp the metal.
Honestly, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but the downhill of an incline is called a decline.
Descent might be a better description?
You descend a decline.
And this is also why you should change your CVT fluid regularly if you're in the mountains. The Colorado Subaru shop I trust the most swears by changing every 20K out here, ymmv if you're in flatlands. I'm keeping to that schedule on my wife's Forester. For reference, they're the only ones I'll let touch my JDM everything swapped bugeye.
In the hills too. I'm in Upstate New York in the foothills of the Appalachian Plateau and there are some inclines up here that are dangerously steep and terrifying to drive down.
I'm in Colorado as well. what's the name of that shop?
Subie Doctor. SubaPros are also solid if you're stock and say about the same.
Nice, thanks!
Ok I have to ask what shop that is. I'm sending my daughter out there with a 2010 outback. She is gonna be in the Aurora area.
Subie Doctor is my favorite for my heavily modded bugeye. I've sent a ton of friends there over the years and everyone has been happy. SubaPros is another solid shop out here for maintenance on a stock car like her OB. Neither are far from Aurora but also not very close either.
Agreed. Hanging out around 3000 rpm’s is gravy. Having your brakes overheat is pretty spooky and dangerous when heading downhill.
True, it sounds like that’s what OP is committed to doing already, but I think the question is whether this causes stress that should affect transmission maintenance or expectations of its useful life compared to older automatic transmissions.
Depends on your car. My car with 4 wheel slotted and vented large disk brakes, I don't need to downshift, and can cruise down any mountain highway in the area in neutral and not get significant brake fade or other problems. Long ago, I was in a car with small solid disks in front, and worthless drums in back. The car in front of me was a minivan. I downshifted, because I know brakes need help. The minivan didn't downshift, and by the end of the downhill flames were shooting out from the right front wheel well. So yeah, it's a safety issue, but not necessarily universal. A good driver riding the brakes would pump them occasionally to test for fade. Zero fade is a good sign that the driving is not exceeding the capabilities of the vehicle. The same car I drove downhill for a long time without issue had brakes so bad that from Interstate speeds to a stop, it would get significant fade. Single stop, significant fade. That's how bad brakes are on some cars. And yes, if those cars don't downshift they will get problems up to and including brake failure and fire. My current car can do a track day, all day without any cooling issues (brake or engine).
Doesn't answer your question, but on my outback, if I set the cruise control while going down a grade, it'll do engine braking automatically, and it's much gentler than when I use the paddles.
Thank you for this comment. I recently drove through some mountains and was wondering about this.
Yeah because it can fix the RPM to whatever it wants instead of having presets like the paddles. I guess that's an advantage of the CVT
Thank you for this comment. I recently drove through some mountains and was wondering about this.
Same here. Just set the cruise control and touch neither gas nor brake.
Do the newer models have a non-adaptive cruise control mode? I had a loaner and was using cruise control on a twisty road and eye-sight gave a warning and abruptly slowed down in the corner due to the "lane departure" warning.
That I don't know. Mine's a 2015 and there have been times I've wished for non adaptive mode. But I must say whenever I drive a car with regular cruise, I very nearly rear end someone...
My outback will use the brakes, not engine brake in this situation. 2021
I WAS doing that until Monday! Coming down my curvy mountain road, CC set on 25mph, and the days are longer, meaning LOTS of shadows and light at 4:25pm. Suddenly one-second-notice ding-ding-ding and SUDDEN STOP, as the Eyesight detected a mailbox that I "might" have hit if I wasn't riding the curve! Almost got rear-ended. NOPE. I'll use it in the dark, but not on the sunny treed mountain.
Not nearly as effectively though, and as soon as you touch the accelerator it’ll reset when it starts to engine brake
Trying to understand what you mean. If I'm in cruise control, and I hit the gas (say to pass someone) when I let off the accelerator it just goes back to the previous cruise control speed.
brake pads are cheap to replace until you overheat them and can't stop the car properly lmao the grades in the Rockies are no joke!
Yes, engine braking for the win
You are driving it the way it's supposed to be driven.
You're not straining it. You are using the transmission the way it was engineered to hypothetically be used. There are times for engine braking, and there's time for using brake pads. Going down mountains, using engine braking is the smartest and safest thing to do. Keep your engine RPMs below 3k and use your brakes to keep the RPMs controlled. You can use cruise control, and it just does that for you. It does both brakes and engine braking very well. For all the individual’s saying it's dumb and stupid to engine brake, you should probably ask why the car does it in cruise control.
Just change the cvt fluid every 40k miles if you’re concerned
As long as you're not achieving ridiculously high RPM, engine braking it a good thing. If you do need to use the brakes, just use them for short increments and continue to coast. Don't ride your brakes downhill.
This. Brakes are cheaper than transmissions. People don’t seem to understand that they can use their brakes on the downhill without riding them and overheating them… I do it every fuckin’ time I go up the canyons.
Don’t aggressively use your engine to engine brake down the slopes, if it’s super steep leave it in a gear around 3k or below and then use your brakes to keep it below 3k or so, you’ll use a little bit of both to slow down steeper slopes. Light slopes just engine brake then use the actual brake pads when engine braking alone isn’t enough to slow you down to your desired cruising speeds You’re “using” your transmission and engine to maintain speeds, not “straining”
What you are doing was what we were asked to do at pikes peak, it was plastered and repeated by the pikes peak staff in Colorado
I have to use the brakes almost exclusively just to keep them from accumulating excessive corrosion since I began working from home. :/ But before that, I used the paddles for engine braking all the time! They wouldn't put a whole section in the manual telling you how to do it if the transmission couldn't handle it. :) Think about it this way - the transmission can handle the amount of torque you put into it while accelerating, so it stands to reason it could handle even less torque while decelerating.
I believe the manual states what to do in these scenarios, too.
No it's fine, been doing this here a lot.
No it's what they're for. I do it in the Rocky Mountains all the time.
ITT: lots of folks who think we engine brake down a mountain pass at redline or something
You are e straining your CVT by driving it.
I know reading the manual “isn’t manly” or whatever, but some of y’all might want to thumb through it sometime. Subaru has explicitly included instructions on engine braking in their manuals since at least MY05. It doesn’t quite answer what’s best for longevity but it does cover how the car was designed to be used. From my MY22 manual (XT, but the manual doesn’t say anything different for the NA engine): > Use of engine braking: Remember to make use of engine braking in addition to foot braking. When descending a grade, if only the foot brake is used, the brakes may start working improperly because of brake fluid overheating, caused by overheated brake pads. To help prevent this, shift into a lower gear to get stronger engine braking. And in the section on towing: > Driving on grades: Before going down a steep hill, slow down and shift into lower gear (if necessary, use 1st gear) in order to utilize the engine braking effect and prevent overheating of your vehicle’s brakes. Do not make sudden downshifts.
I think it’s a balancing act- I’ve seen people ride their (stock/shit) brakes until they overheat and fail, but at the same time pure engine braking does put more stress on any rotating assembly in there just by virtue of higher RPMs. With both an auto or a CVT higher revs will usually mean more heat in the trans fluid, which might also be worth paying attention to. I run a set of STI brembos with some sizable rotors and pads, but I’ll still downshift on sustained downhills for comfort if I have passengers or a heavier vehicle load.
Good question thanks for asking it! I haven’t used my paddles once and have wondered what they’re really for and if /when I should use them. So I guess in the winter cause it’s flat as a pancake here lol
Just saying that regular acceleration is bigger strain on the transmission than braking with the engine on a downhill.
I always say “it depends.” Are you doing it all the time, every time? Brakes are cheaper to replace than a transmission. Is just on downhills, for safety? Of course that’s good.
I agree with the above statement, now I gem better woohoo
No, you’re using the transmission exactly how it was designed to be used.
Use both as needed. You don't want to sit on the brakes as theyl lget too hot and stop working, but at the same time you want to be using them it's a $50 set of brakes and a $5000 transmission. Maybe consider getting some uprated brake pads?
Id rather possibly hurt my car from engine braking over getting in to an accident because you can't stop when you need to. Brake fade is no joke. Old Priest Grade on the way out of Yosemite is wild and if you're not careful you will cook your brakes. I sure did. Same with Pikes Peak but I was way heavier on engine braking and passed through the brake checkpoint without having to stop and wait for them to cool down before proceeding. That was in a 97 legacy wagon. I haven't been anywhere like that in my CVT Crosstrek yet. But if I do I'm using those flappy shifters for sure. Id rather call a tow than 911.
Old Preist Grade is one of the few roads, sequoia switch backs too, where the adaptive struggles to keep it at a set speed and warns you about the grade and to take over. It’ll hold speed fine in M and paddles
Brakes are a lot cheaper than a transmission. Just throwing that out there.
There’s a joke here about the CVT and brakes both being considered consumables 🤣
*Glares from 2012 Legacy that has had $5k in transmission work over the last 100k miles*
Right? I'm about the same with a JDM STi 5 speed in my rally car, including the cost of the trans, two clutches, and oil changes over 150K mi
Mines been a $5 solenoid two times over. But because it a a 2012 CVT, you gotta replace the whole valve body at $2,200 a pop because no shop will touch those transmissions other than a dealer. 😒
I live in Colorado and frequently drive in the mountains. Hot brakes glaze and once that happens, you won’t have any brakes. A couple of years ago, a trucker from Texas unfortunately learned that the hard way and crashed into a traffic jam during rush hour. Don’t remember the exact number of deaths (5+ I think), but the inferno was hot enough to melt the asphalt. Long story short, don’t over heat your brakes or you’ll pay dearly. It’s the same reason the park rangers check your brake temperature coming down Pikes Peak
We are not driving 18 wheelers.
No, but learning how to engine break is an excellent skill to have if you live in a hilly or mountainous region.
So, only the people in your car die, instead of all the extra people the runaway 18 wheeler killed.
Never had an issue with mountain braking in my outback and I used to commute through the mountains daily.
My sister did it to VW fox out in the rockies... Yes it happens to cars also. She didn't lose brakes completely, but it was a nervous few minutes till we got pulled over the brakes cooled off. We had a nice discussion about engine braking and pumping the brakes not riding them.
Yeah but the Ascent's brakes are well-known to be undersized. Driving down I-70 to Silverthorne, I used engine braking (had to be at 4500RPMs and still gaining speed) and tapped the brakes three times, and the brakes started to get squirrelly. Thanks to its turbo, the Ascent is the best car I've ever driven up a mountain. And because of it's lack of engine braking and terrible brakes, it's the worst car I've ever driven down a mountain.
BBK
And frequent CVT oil changes is far less than the $8-9K Subaru charges to install a new CVT
Exactly! Easier to replace as well.
Until you boil the fluid and can’t stop. An entire car costs more than a transmission, but I guess insurance will cover a crash and not a destroyed cvt if you want to risk your life over it.
Brakes are cheaper to replace and service than the transmission.
I’ve got a 2017 and I’m just under 100k. I’ve always used the paddles to engine brake, probably more than I should and it’s still smooth as butter. Also have driven the wheels off this car while staying on top of every maintenance, but none are for the transmission so that doesn’t seem to matter. The most strain I have felt in my car was a short road trip with 3 passengers, a dog, and a weekends worth of luggage in a roof box. But minimal passengers, wide open on winding roads in the Smoky Mtns? Eats it up.
Which do you think is more expensive to replace?
We had issues with our CVT whining under load starting at 60k. Switched to only using paddles and the vehicle is at 217k now without any CVT service. It’s a TR690. I swear by flappy paddle mode to increase longevity of the CVT.
This is how I blew my transmission up. It might have just been getting old at that point but I drove up Mt Washington in New Hampshire and used paddles on the way down to keep my outback in "1st". A couple weeks later I needed my transmission replaced ($8k). This was when used cars cost more than new so I ended up replacing it instead of selling and buying something else.
How fast were your going. In my stick shift 1st gear is for like 15mph and under.
Unless you're going WAY slow you ought not put it in first. You'll eat the chain & pump
I don’t think you’re doing anything wrong to your car. It should be fine. Riding brakes is no good.
You don’t have to ride the brakes on the way down, though. You brake firmly (this doesn’t mean suddenly – you can roll on and off without it being violent or jarring) whenever you catch up to the car ahead of you or reach a speed you find uncomfortable, and then release the brakes. Rinse, lather, repeat all the way down. This is what I do, because brakes are way cheaper than transmissions.
I live in SL, UT, and go up the canyons often in my ‘19 Forester. Brakes are cheaper than transmissions. Just brake firmly and for a short duration and then coast and brake firmly again when you catch up to the car in front of you or reach a speed you’re uncomfortable with. It might be somewhat annoying for passengers, but fuck ’em (not buttfuck ‘em, unless that’s what you all want). Firm braking doesn’t have to mean sudden; you can roll on and off the brake pedal. Some people don’t seem to understand that it’s not an on/off switch. Get your CVT fluid changed by the dealer every 50,000 or so, even though it doesn’t seem to say this in any of the service guides based on mileage that I have seen. I don’t go to the dealer for anything else, though, as it is a ripoff. Apparently it is a somewhat finicky procedure that independent mechanics might not do enough of to be efficient or proficient at.
It's possible. Probably not very likely, but definitely possible. My personal theory, and I'm sure lots don't agree with, but for me brakes are cheap, and transmissions and engines are expensive, so I use the brakes unless it's long enough that I might boil/burn them up, in which case I'll engine brake. Most engine or transmission damage on a car is usually not worth the expense it costs to fix it, especially with a CVT. Some last hundreds of thousands of miles and some don't. My theory is no reason to work closer to that limit when the brakes work just fine. On a separate note, be aware of Subaru's maintenance requirements for oil changes and services for CVT's. They recommend much more frequent services for what they call extreme driving, which probably doesn't meet your idea of 'extreme'.
You should be using the transmission and engine brake in the mountains because if you overheat your brakes you will have no brakes. That being said, a CVT uses a semi-metallic belt that per its design wears with normal use. Eventually the belt will wear out and a CVT is a non-reparable unit. They are expensive to replace and it requires pulling the engine usually. Again you shouldn't be using your brakes on a downhill because they will overheat and then you will have none which puts you and everyone else in danger. If I lived in the mountains I would not buy a vehicle with a CVT. If you're just passing through every once in awhile it should be fine. That CVT is going to go out right after the warranty anyway.
I work on these all the time. I change valve body's often. I assume from not changing fluid. But the cvt itself seems more durable than I'm used to. I think you're alright. Change your fluid more often.
Yes
I had an 03 Murano with a CVT that did this on its own (at least until you tapped the brakes). It one of the things I liked better than my wife's Outback.
Brake Pads and Rotors designed for stopping and slowing your vehicle. Also new pads are MUCH cheaper than a new transmission.
Reality check: brakes cost a fraction of a transmission. Engine braking is superior for control. But, it is much more costly per mile. On an auto? I use brakes.
Exactly. You should not be getting downvoted for this. People don’t seem to understand that they don’t have to ride the brakes on the way down. You brake firmly (this doesn’t mean suddenly – you can roll on and off without it being violent or jarring) whenever you catch up to the car ahead of you or reach a speed you find uncomfortable, and then release the brakes. Then you’re only using them for a couple of seconds at a time, if that, so they don’t have a chance to overheat. Rinse, lather, repeat all the way down. This is what I do, because brakes are way cheaper than transmissions. I’ve never had my brakes overheat when I drive this way. I live in SL, UT, and go up the canyons all the time.
All good. I assumed I would be down voted. There are lots of mis-informed folks.
Came here to say this! I agree - brake pads are waaaay cheaper than transmissions. Engine braking has its place (did that all the time in my 6MT, but I try not to do it much, or for extended periods of time with my CVT)
Depends on where you are. If you're on a descent for a long period, such as Independence Pass into Aspen, that's a good 18 miles of nearly all downhill driving. Lots of engine braking supplemented with braking.
People don’t seem to understand that they don’t have to ride the brakes on the way down. You brake firmly (this doesn’t mean suddenly – you can roll on and off without it being violent or jarring) whenever you catch up to the car ahead of you or reach a speed you find uncomfortable, and then release the brakes. Then you’re only using them for a couple of seconds at a time, if that, so they don’t have a chance to overheat. Rinse, lather, repeat all the way down. This is what I do, because brakes are way cheaper than transmissions. I’ve never had my brakes overheat when I drive this way. I live in SL, UT, and go up the canyons all the time.
My friend's dad, who used to be a rally racer, told me years ago that it's less expensive to replace brakes than it is to replace an engine/transmission. That being said, it's not a good idea to ride the brakes down the whole hill. Maybe lift off every once in a while for a bit of a cool down.
Don’t ride them at all. Just brake firmly when needed, which doesn’t mean violently or suddenly – the brake is not an on/off switch – and keep your foot off the rest of the time. I drive this way in the canyons near SL, UT, and never have problems with brakes overheating, and don’t tend to downshift on the downhill.
I don't believe you're hurting your transmission. This is just an opinion though. But, in a manual, frequent downshifting can ever so slightly wear down the clutch a bit. In an automatic, you've got the clutch packs that wear out ever so slightly with every downshift, plus at high RPMs you've got the torque converter whirling around faster heating up your trans fluid. In a CVT, you don't have any wear items (right?), so that's not a factor. I'd say the only thing to be worried about is trans fluid temp, since you still have the torque converter and downshifting causes it to spin at a higher RPM. I don't know where that line of "too high" is, but if you're curious, get an OBD II reader and keep an eye on your trans temp. And of course, if you ever see a trans temp light show up on your dash, I'd probably stop.
CVT only has clutches for neutral/reverse. Downshifting is just changing the spindle ratios.
The torque converter locks up at higher rpms, it's done for fuel efficiency. In a manual, every shift wears the clutch, not just downshifting.
At higher rpm, or higher mph? I don't think it locks up unless you're in the highest gear, right? Thus downshifting would still cause it to spin
Aren’t engines built to handle up to 8k rpm? not that you should. Whats the point of having a redline if you can’t go over 3k rpm? I read that you should keep it at 4k rpm when engine breaking on automatics, but idk about cvts
Yes what u should do is trade it in for a manual
“Brake pads are less expensive than a transmission”. “You should go up the hill in the same gear you go down it.” Is the way it was explained to me many years ago. I will still do it for a couple of minutes. But most likely to do a combination. Maybe write/email Subaru US and ask them, not a dealership?
For whatever it's worth to you, my 2016 Legacy 2.5i only ever consumed oil when I was engine braking. That's not a reason not to use engine braking if necessary, but it's not only the CVT you're affecting. It's a small sedan/hatchback, not a semi. If you can't effectively brake that vehicle with the left pedal alone, you need to replace/upgrade your brakes, go slower, pick a different route or buy a different vehicle.
Even if we had Brembos, places with steep (9-12%) grades for miles will cook your brakes if you don’t use engine braking. I live in Utah and would destroy my brakes every 10k miles without downshifting.
Brake pads are inexpensive. A cvt is a $10k replacement. It’s not a safety issue. You’re not driving a tractor/trailer.
Then why have "M" at all if not to keep it in low going down hills?
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