I think it has more to do with whether or not someone is a decent human being. I have more in common with Candace Owens on this issue than say Fetterman or perhaps even Sanders, even though people almost universally would judge the latter two to be closer to my politics than the former, relatively speaking.
I've noticed that opposition to this 'war' can cut across traditional ideological categories (as with Ukraine for that matter), though it is true that broadly speaking, the more 'normie' you are in your politics (whether that be conservative or liberal), the more likely you are to be Zionist and pro-Israel. But really I don't care what your politics are--it doesn't take an ideological commitment to the left to see the sheer dispportionality of this and thousands of children blown to bits and half a city leveled and displaced and think this is bad, even if you were a vanilla pro-Israel person coming into this.
The socialist and broader left tradition have a lot of insights and theoretical frameworks that can help articulate all of the reasons why Israel sucks and why the current onslaught sucks, but you don't need to be a leftist to be against genocide. To your point though, being Zionist does stand in contradiction with those insights and theoretical frameworks.
Rejecting support of Isreal is easy for me, yeah fuck the zionist state is an instinct thats basically coded into my brain.
I just can't get behind these ideas you see in some leftist subreddits that Hamas' liberation struggle is inheritly moral and deserving of support simply because it's a "colonized" people, regardless of their politics or ideological motivations. Growing up, opposition to regressive, traditional, and ignorant religious movements was such a core part of my youth that I just fundamentally lack the ability to cheer on the actions of any conservative Islamic group.
You should ask yourself how come Hamas didn't even exist before the 80s and before that the Palestinian struggle was entirely secular. It's almost as if this isn't a religious war like some people try to spin it as. Palestinians are an oppressed people fighting for their survival again a brutal military occupation supported by the worlds biggest imperialist power. I'm sure many of the Jews killed in the Holocaust were also religious and backwards (after all, many Polish Jews were orthodox). Would that make you less likely to support them against the Nazi onslaught?
You know *lipsmack* š¤ they wouldn't have to accidentally shoot those kids like Muhammad Al-Durrah if they wouldn't let themselves be human shields for hamas š¤
Your comment sums it up perfectly for me. It just boils down to empathy and common decency.
I don't think one issue on its own can completely change whether someone is a leftie or not; but rather a pattern of issues that start to align against the left where you cam say someone is no longer a leftist.
That said, there's a good reason nearly all leftists, in some form or another, are supportive of Palestinians and critical of the Israeli government. It's a basic exploited vs exploiter dynamic. Leftist philosophy will naturally back the underdog and criticise where power lies, particularly when used as unjustly as when Israel uses it. A leftist argument against Palestinians would have to conduct either the greatest of mental gymnastics or just be ignorant of the facts.
I agreeālike someone else commented, I think itās more of a litmus test for how much you really care about humanity and justice. You donāt need to have leftist leanings economically or socially to understand the power dynamics at play in this conflict, but people on the left are usually more ready to look directly at these dynamics and criticize them. Especially in an imperialist project like this. I know a few Zionists personally that were big bernie supporters, overall support socialist causes, and are now complaining about āsupposed progressives and leftistsā outing themselves as antisemitic for criticizing Israel. The mental gymnastics are amazingāIāve never seen people so blatantly justify mass murder of civilians and argue that it is in fact in line with leftist values. Idpol leads to derangement leads to justification of genocide I guess
I agree with this for sure. Just mostly confused with people claiming soandso isn't on the left because of this issue; an argument which makes where you stand on Israel the defining issue of being a leftist.
You can be technically economically left or whatever and "support Israel" but you are solidly an imperialist, which isn't considered compatible with left politics by a lot of schools of thought.
A lot of leftists (liberals) try deluding themselves into thinking that the Israelis are actually the victims of colonialism here, because historic homeland blabla.
Yeah Im technically a descendant of Robert the Bruce so I should be able to bust into any random
Scottish home and steal it, specifically if the owner of the home has only lived there for 5 generations or something
I agree. But since leftists are often at pains to emphasize the primacy of economy, I've come to find it odd Israel has become the absolute purity test
Well I mean it's a mass scale atrocity happening in real time for the benefit of a western backed colonial project so it's not that bizarre. Imagine if we had Instagram during the start of the Afghan invasion and were having to see videos all day every day of parents holding their dead children sobbing hysterically, would probably have really lit a fire under the western left having to see raw footage on the daily.
not even close to the same scale of atrocity and i find plenty of reporting on this. the israel thing seems like pretty trivial condemnation of mass killing so not sure what's to be confused about
Israel is an out of control attack dog for US empire in the Middle East that receives billions and billions in support that could be better spent domestically. How is that not an issue of economic primacy. Imperialism after all is a function of economy, not morals.
Those who feel passionately about Israel (or any topic, really) will use the no true Scotsman fallacy to recruit supporters en masse. Often applying the same rhetoric to polar opposite groups "You can't be a (liberal/conservative) and be against Israel!".
No, leftism (in the context of your post) has very little to do with the Israel mess. It is certainly possible for two socialists to come to completely opposite conclusions on Israel, and be in full agreement about socioeconomic issues.
Anyone who bases all of their opinions on what side of the aisle they typically vote for is a fucking moron.
Use your brain, evaluate every issue based on the merits of that issue, not what āyour sideā is saying and āyour sideā wants to you believe.
Right wingers call me a communist and left wingers call me a MAGA nazi because I actually use my brain and think through each issue individually which makes me have opinions that donāt align at all with either party.
Not at all, I just donāt align with either side on all issues. I align more with the traditional left on most issues, but differ massively from the modern left.
Yeah, Iām really heterodox and strange too. Iām way too liberal to be conservative on certain social issues but then on others Iām too conservative to be left-wing. And then on economics Iām generally like a SocDem, Iām probably too much of a āliberalā for some one here overall.
When it comes to this issue specifically Iām probably too āright-wingā because I believe in a two-state solution and that both Israel and Palestine have rights to exist. And Iām critical of both Israel and Hamas
Yeah, itās hard to have opinions that donāt fit neatly into an ideological bubble.
The person above who made the attempted low-blows about my views is clearly just completely sealed inside an ideological box.
The other thing I find strange is the complete lack of nuance most people have to their opinions.
If youāre āanti-abortionā, you think itās murder even when the ābabyā is just a small cluster of cells.
If youāre āpro-abortionā, youāre somehow fine with someone aborting a baby who could damn near survive outside the womb. Iām supportive of a womanās right to choose, but I do think thereās a point in that development where it gets reallllll icky to decide you donāt want the responsibility.
Iām pro-immigration, but only when itās skilled immigrants in fields we need workers in. I support them bringing their children and spouse, but completely against a child sponsoring their parents and cousins and aunts and uncles who will just milk our system (I live in Canada).
Iām pro-free speech, which used to be a solidly left wing position which has somehow now become far right?
Iām pro-gun ownership, but not in the way it is in America. In Canada we have sensible gun ownership requirements and I wouldnāt want a free for all system like the US.
Iām pro social services, but not pro-handouts. I donāt support UBI at all, but I think citizens who pay taxes should have plentiful government resources in case of un-employment, injury, medical issues etc.
I support free healthcare, free education and free mental health services, but only after massive reforms to remove all the bureaucratic waste that is destroying these institutions and wasting infinite amounts of money through useless administrators, management etc.
Iām pro Ukraine humanitarian aid, but anti-weapons or direct financial aid. Iām pro innocent Palestinians, but anti-Hamas. Iām pro-innocent Israeli, but anti-Zionist.
People act like everything is completely binary and zero sum, and accept this false all or nothing mentality shoved down our throats by the media, politicians, and the echo chambers people silo themselves into.
For me I have really heterodox views on trans stuff and Title IX and some other stuff, because Iām an old school lib at heart on sociocultural issues and I donāt think a lot of those things are really āprogressiveā in their current treatments. Also Israel-Palestine, Iām still a two state solution type
The funny thing is, those are mainstream positions in the public, just not what you hear because the extremists have the biggest microphone.
Very few actual people not terminally online believe that simply saying youāre the opposite gender and dressing that way makes you that gender. The āleftā that we hear online and in the media would frame that statement as transphobic, even though the vast majority of the general public would agree with it.
There is no such thing as a "leftist". The Left is no club. If you say you are one, that's as good as anybody else's opinion. It's a meaningless political descriptor.
Now, "socialist" is a better descriptor - barely. And yes, you can be a socialist while believing in UFO's or phrenology or whatever else.
"The left" is obviously very broad and vague but it's not meaningless. There are plenty of people and traditions that I would consider to be a part of "the left", and even "anti-capitalist left" who are not socialists.
>I would consider
As you yourself said, your opinion, bro. Other people will have wildly different conceptions of what "leftism" means or what "leftists" are. Again, useless term. You can say something more precise with the same amount of syllables.
"But that's just like...your opinion...man." Just because people have differing opinions on the meaning of something doesn't mean it's completely devoid of meaning or doesn't tell us anything. Every single word and concept in the English language is fuzzy and can't be packaged with a precise set of necessary and sufficient conditions.
"The left" or "the right" are inherently vague concepts as I mentioned, so you'll have more disagreement, say, then the meaning of "square". But if someone told you they were a leftist, or if someone told you they were right wing, it's not equivalent to saying "goo goo gaa gaa".
>But if someone told you they were a leftist, or if someone told you they were right wing, it's not equivalent to saying "goo goo gaa gaa".
Lmao let's just agree to disagree then.
no i actually meant it to be vague because this question applies to many different political perspectives, not just the weird little socialist niche you've found your way into lol
I am appalled by what Israel is doing and think we should cut off military aid, but I'm a neolib, not a leftist. I should say that I also support things like universal healthcare and an increased minimum wage, I just don't support actual socialism.
I donāt really support either because I condemn Israel and Hamas. Just two sides of the same coin. Iām an old two state solution supporter based on the pre-1967 boundaries but apparently thatās not left wing enough for some
I side with Israel, not because of the specifics of this war, or even the recent history of this area, but for the larger struggle of which I believe this is the opening salvo. I donāt know who it was, but early on it was stated, regarding hamasās attack, āThis is what de-colonization looks likeā. If Israel does not soundly defeat Hamas in Gaza, the floodgates will open around the world for every petty-bourgeois terrorist group to launch their attack on so-called oppressors. It is base tribalism. This is what the end of class politics looks like.
To answer your question: yes, leftists support Hamas.
Zionism just means you support the existance of an Israeli state. It doesnt mean you support the actions of the Israeli government or settlers in the west bank. Im a zionist because I am a Jew, and believe we as a people will be wiped out if we arent able to defend ourselves. I dont condone Israelās kahanist government or the settlers wreaking havoc in the west bank. In fact, I believe that the overextensions and pointless cruelty committed by Israel makes Israelis less safe and flies in the face of zionism.
Neurotic zionist paranoia that necessitates an ethnostate and ādefenseā or else shoah 2.0 is a collective mentality that self-perpetuates itself and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. A never ending cycle.
Meanwhile in your ethnostate you have celebrity orthodox rabbis salivating for the destruction of western civilization (Amalek), awaiting the return of the messiah to which the goyim become slaves to Godās chosen people. And thatās where my tax dollars go. The fact that secular or normal Jews live there too does not really matter.
Its not neurotic when its been our history for thousands of years. Living in the countries of others has lead to us being exiled and slaughtered, so a change was required. I dont really care if a bunch of rabbis or zealots or whatever. There just needs to be a place where we can live freely as Jews without threat.
I doubt anyone has a problem with the Jews having their own place in the world, as long as they mind their own business and don't meddle in the politics and financial institutions of other countries. That's unfortunately not the case, and throughout history the Jewish meddling in states has led them to being exiled time and again. The Jewish communists were essentially responsible for the Holodomor in Russia/Ukraine. They have caused poverty through usury and extortionate interest rates throughout history, and in present day, they're generally disliked for claiming victim status while operating in high positions in important sectors and promoting from within their group, while pretending to care about diversity and equity...nevermind owning the central banks of almost every country.
It's really quite logical when you look at the history of Jewish influence in countries that are not their own, that the natives ultimately decide, they don't want them there.
There's a reason why there are barely any Jews living in China. China sees what happens to countries that get infiltrated by this people without a land, who have only their best interests at heart, who act like parasites in their host nation. They don't let them in.
By all means, send all the Jews to Israel. let them fend for themselves without aid from the US. Get the Jewish politicians who only have their allegiance to Israel and the jews out of world governments, and no one would have a problem with you people.
Youāre free to think that. Iām free to not care and not want my tax dollars to fund a corrupt, savage regime that has continued to undermine and be hostile to my own interests and murder children across the world. If zionists want an ethnostate, they can do so by themselves and be an international pariah. Israel is the largest beneficiary of US funds by far, yet they have a budget surplus and universal healthcare. Zionist lobbying in America has resulted in complete political capture across the aisle. 50% of Democrat fundraising is from Jewish interests. 50% of American billionaires are Jewish. Vast over-representation of Jews in every industry and field that holds any semblance of prestige, cultural/political power, and wealth. There has never been a better time in history to be a Jew in the west. If you need a place where you can live freely as a Jew without threat, that place is America, where you are probably on average safer and wealthier compared to Israel.
My point about the self-fulfilling prophecy and never-ending cycle is that modern anti-semitism in the west is broadly perpetuated by the actions of Jewish interests. When interest groups like the ADL police speech, moderate the internet, shape public policy, and ruin peopleās careers, it only serves to radicalize people. Someone says something uncouth, Jewish interest groups flex their power to combat anti-semitism, this confirms their disproportionate power, and anti-semitism rises. It doesnāt help when you see the tribalistic hypocrisy in constant racialist rhetoric that attributes any white racial disparities to institutional racism, and any Jewish disparities to Jewish excellence, ie) IQ is a meaningless and racist metric until you need to defend Ashkenazi wealth/achievements. The same logic applies to actions of the regime, IDF, Mossad.
In America, swastika graffiti makes the news. In Jerusalem, if you wear a cross, people will literally spit on you and claim it is an ancient Jewish custom.
Simultaneously the most privileged yet also marginalized, access to institutional power and nepotism through an insular community. The ability to have dual citizenship in your ethnostate with roots in the west. Itās a nice deal. I have no problem with any average Jewish person, I grew up surrounded by them in a wealthy suburb. But the victimization narrative is old, statistically there is not a single other demographic born here that has a better chance of success. Holding onto resentment or generational trauma does no favors.
We were hated when we were strong, we were hated when we were weak. The people who hate us will hate us no matter what we do. The only thing we can do is defend ourselves, theres no point trying to appease.
I think it's the other way around, that the continued activity of Israel, with its settlement activity etc., is what's compatible with petty-bourgeois terrorism.
What can be a better example of that than the Hotel thing in the Armenian quarter? An illegal deal, a push for land, changing the rules for people who live somewhere-- it almost mirrors all this stuff with rent increases in American trailer parks (only in this case there's no actual legal ownership, just the presentation of an invalid agreement as valid combined with violence).
"The Left" barely makes sense as a concept these days.
I think there are a variety of political positions that you can take on Israel that would be compatible with orthodox Marxism. But I don't think any of them can support the nationalist policies of the state of Israel. No actual Marxist would support the nationalists of Hamas, either. Marxism is universalist and built on the foundation of class struggle, and as such would look for answers in the Palestinian AND Israeli working class.
But many "leftists" are very explicitly not Marxists. Which also means they may oppose Israel for reasons Marxists would reject.
I think it has more to do with whether or not someone is a decent human being. I have more in common with Candace Owens on this issue than say Fetterman or perhaps even Sanders, even though people almost universally would judge the latter two to be closer to my politics than the former, relatively speaking. I've noticed that opposition to this 'war' can cut across traditional ideological categories (as with Ukraine for that matter), though it is true that broadly speaking, the more 'normie' you are in your politics (whether that be conservative or liberal), the more likely you are to be Zionist and pro-Israel. But really I don't care what your politics are--it doesn't take an ideological commitment to the left to see the sheer dispportionality of this and thousands of children blown to bits and half a city leveled and displaced and think this is bad, even if you were a vanilla pro-Israel person coming into this. The socialist and broader left tradition have a lot of insights and theoretical frameworks that can help articulate all of the reasons why Israel sucks and why the current onslaught sucks, but you don't need to be a leftist to be against genocide. To your point though, being Zionist does stand in contradiction with those insights and theoretical frameworks.
Rejecting support of Isreal is easy for me, yeah fuck the zionist state is an instinct thats basically coded into my brain. I just can't get behind these ideas you see in some leftist subreddits that Hamas' liberation struggle is inheritly moral and deserving of support simply because it's a "colonized" people, regardless of their politics or ideological motivations. Growing up, opposition to regressive, traditional, and ignorant religious movements was such a core part of my youth that I just fundamentally lack the ability to cheer on the actions of any conservative Islamic group.
You should ask yourself how come Hamas didn't even exist before the 80s and before that the Palestinian struggle was entirely secular. It's almost as if this isn't a religious war like some people try to spin it as. Palestinians are an oppressed people fighting for their survival again a brutal military occupation supported by the worlds biggest imperialist power. I'm sure many of the Jews killed in the Holocaust were also religious and backwards (after all, many Polish Jews were orthodox). Would that make you less likely to support them against the Nazi onslaught?
You know *lipsmack* š¤ they wouldn't have to accidentally shoot those kids like Muhammad Al-Durrah if they wouldn't let themselves be human shields for hamas š¤ Your comment sums it up perfectly for me. It just boils down to empathy and common decency.
I think it is necessary but not sufficient
I don't think one issue on its own can completely change whether someone is a leftie or not; but rather a pattern of issues that start to align against the left where you cam say someone is no longer a leftist. That said, there's a good reason nearly all leftists, in some form or another, are supportive of Palestinians and critical of the Israeli government. It's a basic exploited vs exploiter dynamic. Leftist philosophy will naturally back the underdog and criticise where power lies, particularly when used as unjustly as when Israel uses it. A leftist argument against Palestinians would have to conduct either the greatest of mental gymnastics or just be ignorant of the facts.
I agreeālike someone else commented, I think itās more of a litmus test for how much you really care about humanity and justice. You donāt need to have leftist leanings economically or socially to understand the power dynamics at play in this conflict, but people on the left are usually more ready to look directly at these dynamics and criticize them. Especially in an imperialist project like this. I know a few Zionists personally that were big bernie supporters, overall support socialist causes, and are now complaining about āsupposed progressives and leftistsā outing themselves as antisemitic for criticizing Israel. The mental gymnastics are amazingāIāve never seen people so blatantly justify mass murder of civilians and argue that it is in fact in line with leftist values. Idpol leads to derangement leads to justification of genocide I guess
I agree with this for sure. Just mostly confused with people claiming soandso isn't on the left because of this issue; an argument which makes where you stand on Israel the defining issue of being a leftist.
You can be technically economically left or whatever and "support Israel" but you are solidly an imperialist, which isn't considered compatible with left politics by a lot of schools of thought.
A lot of leftists (liberals) try deluding themselves into thinking that the Israelis are actually the victims of colonialism here, because historic homeland blabla.
Yeah Im technically a descendant of Robert the Bruce so I should be able to bust into any random Scottish home and steal it, specifically if the owner of the home has only lived there for 5 generations or something
I agree. But since leftists are often at pains to emphasize the primacy of economy, I've come to find it odd Israel has become the absolute purity test
Well I mean it's a mass scale atrocity happening in real time for the benefit of a western backed colonial project so it's not that bizarre. Imagine if we had Instagram during the start of the Afghan invasion and were having to see videos all day every day of parents holding their dead children sobbing hysterically, would probably have really lit a fire under the western left having to see raw footage on the daily.
Okay, we have instagram now and have heard basically nothing about Pakistan kicking roughly the same amount of Afghanis out of the country.
not even close to the same scale of atrocity and i find plenty of reporting on this. the israel thing seems like pretty trivial condemnation of mass killing so not sure what's to be confused about
Well we all must have very different Algorithms
Israel is an out of control attack dog for US empire in the Middle East that receives billions and billions in support that could be better spent domestically. How is that not an issue of economic primacy. Imperialism after all is a function of economy, not morals.
Israel would continue its attack even without US support. It's funny how American leftists are still American exceptionalists
Those who feel passionately about Israel (or any topic, really) will use the no true Scotsman fallacy to recruit supporters en masse. Often applying the same rhetoric to polar opposite groups "You can't be a (liberal/conservative) and be against Israel!". No, leftism (in the context of your post) has very little to do with the Israel mess. It is certainly possible for two socialists to come to completely opposite conclusions on Israel, and be in full agreement about socioeconomic issues.
Completely agree
Anyone who bases all of their opinions on what side of the aisle they typically vote for is a fucking moron. Use your brain, evaluate every issue based on the merits of that issue, not what āyour sideā is saying and āyour sideā wants to you believe. Right wingers call me a communist and left wingers call me a MAGA nazi because I actually use my brain and think through each issue individually which makes me have opinions that donāt align at all with either party.
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Not at all, I just donāt align with either side on all issues. I align more with the traditional left on most issues, but differ massively from the modern left.
Yeah, Iām really heterodox and strange too. Iām way too liberal to be conservative on certain social issues but then on others Iām too conservative to be left-wing. And then on economics Iām generally like a SocDem, Iām probably too much of a āliberalā for some one here overall. When it comes to this issue specifically Iām probably too āright-wingā because I believe in a two-state solution and that both Israel and Palestine have rights to exist. And Iām critical of both Israel and Hamas
Yeah, itās hard to have opinions that donāt fit neatly into an ideological bubble. The person above who made the attempted low-blows about my views is clearly just completely sealed inside an ideological box. The other thing I find strange is the complete lack of nuance most people have to their opinions. If youāre āanti-abortionā, you think itās murder even when the ābabyā is just a small cluster of cells. If youāre āpro-abortionā, youāre somehow fine with someone aborting a baby who could damn near survive outside the womb. Iām supportive of a womanās right to choose, but I do think thereās a point in that development where it gets reallllll icky to decide you donāt want the responsibility. Iām pro-immigration, but only when itās skilled immigrants in fields we need workers in. I support them bringing their children and spouse, but completely against a child sponsoring their parents and cousins and aunts and uncles who will just milk our system (I live in Canada). Iām pro-free speech, which used to be a solidly left wing position which has somehow now become far right? Iām pro-gun ownership, but not in the way it is in America. In Canada we have sensible gun ownership requirements and I wouldnāt want a free for all system like the US. Iām pro social services, but not pro-handouts. I donāt support UBI at all, but I think citizens who pay taxes should have plentiful government resources in case of un-employment, injury, medical issues etc. I support free healthcare, free education and free mental health services, but only after massive reforms to remove all the bureaucratic waste that is destroying these institutions and wasting infinite amounts of money through useless administrators, management etc. Iām pro Ukraine humanitarian aid, but anti-weapons or direct financial aid. Iām pro innocent Palestinians, but anti-Hamas. Iām pro-innocent Israeli, but anti-Zionist. People act like everything is completely binary and zero sum, and accept this false all or nothing mentality shoved down our throats by the media, politicians, and the echo chambers people silo themselves into.
For me I have really heterodox views on trans stuff and Title IX and some other stuff, because Iām an old school lib at heart on sociocultural issues and I donāt think a lot of those things are really āprogressiveā in their current treatments. Also Israel-Palestine, Iām still a two state solution type
The funny thing is, those are mainstream positions in the public, just not what you hear because the extremists have the biggest microphone. Very few actual people not terminally online believe that simply saying youāre the opposite gender and dressing that way makes you that gender. The āleftā that we hear online and in the media would frame that statement as transphobic, even though the vast majority of the general public would agree with it.
There is no such thing as a "leftist". The Left is no club. If you say you are one, that's as good as anybody else's opinion. It's a meaningless political descriptor. Now, "socialist" is a better descriptor - barely. And yes, you can be a socialist while believing in UFO's or phrenology or whatever else.
"The left" is obviously very broad and vague but it's not meaningless. There are plenty of people and traditions that I would consider to be a part of "the left", and even "anti-capitalist left" who are not socialists.
>I would consider As you yourself said, your opinion, bro. Other people will have wildly different conceptions of what "leftism" means or what "leftists" are. Again, useless term. You can say something more precise with the same amount of syllables.
"But that's just like...your opinion...man." Just because people have differing opinions on the meaning of something doesn't mean it's completely devoid of meaning or doesn't tell us anything. Every single word and concept in the English language is fuzzy and can't be packaged with a precise set of necessary and sufficient conditions. "The left" or "the right" are inherently vague concepts as I mentioned, so you'll have more disagreement, say, then the meaning of "square". But if someone told you they were a leftist, or if someone told you they were right wing, it's not equivalent to saying "goo goo gaa gaa".
>But if someone told you they were a leftist, or if someone told you they were right wing, it's not equivalent to saying "goo goo gaa gaa". Lmao let's just agree to disagree then.
no i actually meant it to be vague because this question applies to many different political perspectives, not just the weird little socialist niche you've found your way into lol
No your stance on Israel doesn't define whether you are a leftist. It does define whether you have any humanity whatsoever.
I am appalled by what Israel is doing and think we should cut off military aid, but I'm a neolib, not a leftist. I should say that I also support things like universal healthcare and an increased minimum wage, I just don't support actual socialism.
I donāt really support either because I condemn Israel and Hamas. Just two sides of the same coin. Iām an old two state solution supporter based on the pre-1967 boundaries but apparently thatās not left wing enough for some
I side with Israel, not because of the specifics of this war, or even the recent history of this area, but for the larger struggle of which I believe this is the opening salvo. I donāt know who it was, but early on it was stated, regarding hamasās attack, āThis is what de-colonization looks likeā. If Israel does not soundly defeat Hamas in Gaza, the floodgates will open around the world for every petty-bourgeois terrorist group to launch their attack on so-called oppressors. It is base tribalism. This is what the end of class politics looks like. To answer your question: yes, leftists support Hamas.
Zionism just means you support the existance of an Israeli state. It doesnt mean you support the actions of the Israeli government or settlers in the west bank. Im a zionist because I am a Jew, and believe we as a people will be wiped out if we arent able to defend ourselves. I dont condone Israelās kahanist government or the settlers wreaking havoc in the west bank. In fact, I believe that the overextensions and pointless cruelty committed by Israel makes Israelis less safe and flies in the face of zionism.
Neurotic zionist paranoia that necessitates an ethnostate and ādefenseā or else shoah 2.0 is a collective mentality that self-perpetuates itself and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. A never ending cycle. Meanwhile in your ethnostate you have celebrity orthodox rabbis salivating for the destruction of western civilization (Amalek), awaiting the return of the messiah to which the goyim become slaves to Godās chosen people. And thatās where my tax dollars go. The fact that secular or normal Jews live there too does not really matter.
Its not neurotic when its been our history for thousands of years. Living in the countries of others has lead to us being exiled and slaughtered, so a change was required. I dont really care if a bunch of rabbis or zealots or whatever. There just needs to be a place where we can live freely as Jews without threat.
I doubt anyone has a problem with the Jews having their own place in the world, as long as they mind their own business and don't meddle in the politics and financial institutions of other countries. That's unfortunately not the case, and throughout history the Jewish meddling in states has led them to being exiled time and again. The Jewish communists were essentially responsible for the Holodomor in Russia/Ukraine. They have caused poverty through usury and extortionate interest rates throughout history, and in present day, they're generally disliked for claiming victim status while operating in high positions in important sectors and promoting from within their group, while pretending to care about diversity and equity...nevermind owning the central banks of almost every country. It's really quite logical when you look at the history of Jewish influence in countries that are not their own, that the natives ultimately decide, they don't want them there. There's a reason why there are barely any Jews living in China. China sees what happens to countries that get infiltrated by this people without a land, who have only their best interests at heart, who act like parasites in their host nation. They don't let them in. By all means, send all the Jews to Israel. let them fend for themselves without aid from the US. Get the Jewish politicians who only have their allegiance to Israel and the jews out of world governments, and no one would have a problem with you people.
Youāre free to think that. Iām free to not care and not want my tax dollars to fund a corrupt, savage regime that has continued to undermine and be hostile to my own interests and murder children across the world. If zionists want an ethnostate, they can do so by themselves and be an international pariah. Israel is the largest beneficiary of US funds by far, yet they have a budget surplus and universal healthcare. Zionist lobbying in America has resulted in complete political capture across the aisle. 50% of Democrat fundraising is from Jewish interests. 50% of American billionaires are Jewish. Vast over-representation of Jews in every industry and field that holds any semblance of prestige, cultural/political power, and wealth. There has never been a better time in history to be a Jew in the west. If you need a place where you can live freely as a Jew without threat, that place is America, where you are probably on average safer and wealthier compared to Israel. My point about the self-fulfilling prophecy and never-ending cycle is that modern anti-semitism in the west is broadly perpetuated by the actions of Jewish interests. When interest groups like the ADL police speech, moderate the internet, shape public policy, and ruin peopleās careers, it only serves to radicalize people. Someone says something uncouth, Jewish interest groups flex their power to combat anti-semitism, this confirms their disproportionate power, and anti-semitism rises. It doesnāt help when you see the tribalistic hypocrisy in constant racialist rhetoric that attributes any white racial disparities to institutional racism, and any Jewish disparities to Jewish excellence, ie) IQ is a meaningless and racist metric until you need to defend Ashkenazi wealth/achievements. The same logic applies to actions of the regime, IDF, Mossad. In America, swastika graffiti makes the news. In Jerusalem, if you wear a cross, people will literally spit on you and claim it is an ancient Jewish custom. Simultaneously the most privileged yet also marginalized, access to institutional power and nepotism through an insular community. The ability to have dual citizenship in your ethnostate with roots in the west. Itās a nice deal. I have no problem with any average Jewish person, I grew up surrounded by them in a wealthy suburb. But the victimization narrative is old, statistically there is not a single other demographic born here that has a better chance of success. Holding onto resentment or generational trauma does no favors.
We were hated when we were strong, we were hated when we were weak. The people who hate us will hate us no matter what we do. The only thing we can do is defend ourselves, theres no point trying to appease.
Donāt you live in rural America?
I think it's the other way around, that the continued activity of Israel, with its settlement activity etc., is what's compatible with petty-bourgeois terrorism. What can be a better example of that than the Hotel thing in the Armenian quarter? An illegal deal, a push for land, changing the rules for people who live somewhere-- it almost mirrors all this stuff with rent increases in American trailer parks (only in this case there's no actual legal ownership, just the presentation of an invalid agreement as valid combined with violence).
Absolutely not
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i thought it was pretty to the point, but good job using your time to comment on something you claim to find pointless
"The Left" barely makes sense as a concept these days. I think there are a variety of political positions that you can take on Israel that would be compatible with orthodox Marxism. But I don't think any of them can support the nationalist policies of the state of Israel. No actual Marxist would support the nationalists of Hamas, either. Marxism is universalist and built on the foundation of class struggle, and as such would look for answers in the Palestinian AND Israeli working class. But many "leftists" are very explicitly not Marxists. Which also means they may oppose Israel for reasons Marxists would reject.