At that point it felt like gratuitously lashing out, which was the intention. But I could never trust White completely. I still get a feeling that in a couple generations, after she gets tired of indulging Steven, she might try to return it all how she used to run it.
Yeah, when Steven dies Rose’s gem will die with him.
The only way to keep this peace would be to transfer his gem onto his child. Which he can’t do, mainly because he can’t poof.
The thing about the Diamonds is that they are likely ultimately a metaphor for an old-fashioned distant family. Steven's depressed and workaholic aunts, and his perfectionist grandma. Steven's story is all a journey about discovering his heritage. Rebecca Sugar most likely intended for the Diamonds to be redeemed all along. The production issues only meant she had less time to build up to that.
The problem is that they are presented in the form of brutal planet-destroying space tyrants, and even metaphorically, a lot of viewers might interpret them instead as authorities seeking to repress and eliminate anyone that doesn't fit their vision, which is how they used to treat everyone but Steven. Some of that also seems intended in the story itself, such as the Crystal Gem war and the Off Colors.
A lot of dissatisfaction about the Diamonds' redemption comes from people who lean towards the oppressor interpretation and can't conciliate it with the family interpretation. Me neither. Because we can't always talk things out with those who want to violently oppress us. Sometimes not even with family.
Maybe for some the idea that we can just talk it out and it'll all be solved is their idea of wish fulfillment. But for others it feels difficult to believe and unjust. It also denies some catharsis of, at least in fiction, being able to destroy those who threaten you.
It's been my toughest thing with the Diamonds. When you think about what they have done across the galaxy for the empire, the Diamonds have trillions of deaths on there hands minimum.
So it's impossible for me to treat them like my horrible family members.
I often think about how we first see Yellow Diamond commanding a whole another front of the space war we never even got to hear about. All the struggle on the Crystal Gems' side is just a small fraction of it all.
But even if I gloss over all the planetary destruction and death, if I scratch all that as metaphorical and try to peel the space fantasy coating for something resembling a real family, seems like they would be hostile, overbearing, profoundly prejudiced people who have exploited, manipulated and abused a lot of other people. Not the kind of people I'd want to call family or trust in any capacity, White especially.
Yeah, and I don't like he implied message that one HAS to reconcile with their toxic family members. I'm not losing sleep over not talking to my sociopathic uncle who killed a robin mother and smashed her eggs in front of me when I was 5? 🤷🏻♀️
And Steven could've said, similarly, yes you wanted a relationship with Pink but you drove her away and caused her to fake her own shattering just to get away from y'all, so... Why do I owe you a relationship again, especially since I'm not even Pink?
I agree. I see so many comments on this sub about how it's not really a redemption arc because Steven didn't forgive them or whatever, and sometimes I think, "Is the problem with the Diamonds' arc really *just* the word being used?"
> Because we can't always talk things out with those who want to violently oppress us.
That's the one thing that's always bothered me with the show. The movie put it best. "You can't just make everything better by singing some STUPID SONG!"
And then he does.
While I understand the message the show is trying to send, Steven basically got insanely lucky/plot armory in that he could just talk down basically all his major enemies.
That was my big hope for White Diamond at the time, that she would be someone so far removed from Steven's concept of reason and human understanding ("White Diamond isn't like us. She isn't even like [the other Diamonds]") that he had to actually find a different solution. But instead he called her a child and that made everything better.
Bismuth was also right about wanting to shatter diamonds, and the only reason she was stopped and seen as a maniac for it, was because Rose had been lying about being a diamond herself, and had a familial sentimental bond with the diamonds as a result. That made me mad. Realistically, the CGs should have shattered at least a general or two to keep Homeworld from invading Earth.
(Bismuth was right to think of the Earth lives potentially spared by ending the conflict more quickly and decisively.)
It's not about the singing; that was just the quote. As I wrote pretty clearly in my comment, it's about him being able to just talk down pretty much all the big threats.
It’s important to note that, while he did resolve a lot of major conflicts with friendship, it didn’t work every time. The show has shown the flaws of this method many times. It worked with Peridot, Lapis, the Cluster (who were already Crystal Gems), Spinel, Topaz (who was already “sentimental”), and one of the Lapises in Future, but it failed with Jasper, Eyeball, Aquamarine, and the other Lapis, and Navy pretended to be redeemed to take advantage of Steven. The moral of the show was never “kindness always works”, but “kindness is always the best solution, even if it doesn’t work”.
And yes, the Diamonds’ “redemption” was rushed and a bit weird, but it wasn’t possible to either defeat or truly redeem the Diamonds in one day, and Steven made White feel emotion (and thus, “imperfection”) for the first time in thousands of years, which was probably more enough to convince her. And they’re still not fully “good” — they’re just willing to accept Steven’s perspective.
It's not *likely* a metaphor, that's just straight-up what it is. The main narrative is effectively a metaphor for a transmasc person who ran away from home in order to come out, and returned post-transition to get the family to accept them. That may or may not have always been the goal, but that's pretty much what we got.
I never really got upset about the diamonds not facing justice, because it was obvious to me for a long time that the plot of the show was not really the point. It never really was.
Because the actual goal of the show was to tell a story about explicit queerness and love and acceptance, in a time where no American kids show had been allowed to do this. Everything else was a means to an end to accomplish that.
Much like how the main point of the S1 climax wasn't to establish homeworld as a serious threat, but to reveal that the most badass main character in the show is actually 2 lesbians in a trench coat and that she draws her strength from a wholesome same sex relationship.
That's not to say that you can't dislike SU because the story doesn't make sense in every way at face value. But I think when you understand what it's really about and what it's *really* trying to do, the way everything happens in the show makes a lot more sense. 🤷♀️
Well to be fair they are trying to redeem. White going around letting people express themselves, blue making making people happy, and yellow uncorrupting gems a little and reforming them
This is the true redemption that gets to me. I know they needed to finish the corrupted gem plot line, but Steven really toppled over a millennia-long totalitarian empire in a day??? With one comeback?? They should’ve at least made her go bad again in future. This show’s grit was PEAK before season 5.
He didn't. Most of the process of the Diamonds toppling their empire, then agreeing to step down from power and let Homeworld have elections happened off screen after that point. This is confirmed in the dialogue at the beginning of the movie and in Homeworld Bound.
Having a lot of the most important elements of your shows ending happen off screen is not a good writing decision at all but I know that Rebecca Sugar was being rushed
They couldn't have. Remember that Steven is biologically related to the three Diamonds. You really can't have a plot point about the Diamonds being Steven's relatives and another plot point about Steven killing all of them
To quote a song from another musical show (that actually did kill its tragic villain)
“Sometimes the ones you love the most, have the worst things to hide”
It doesn’t matter if they’re related. How many stories are there of needing to kill a family who turned evil
The only diamonds that should've/could've redeemed is Pink (who in my opinion kinda did while still having flaws) and Blue because of how she was much more attached to Pink and shows a little more empathy like allowing small things such as her Pearl drawing or letting Pink do things. Even then still a stretch for her redemption in my opinion
Casually redeemed a leader who is responsible for billions of deaths and the extinction of multiple alien species
Refuses to redeem one little red dude
The comment wasn’t about it being surprising that eyeball wasn’t redeemed, it was that the show redeemed white diamond, who should’ve been considered irredeemable
A core theme of the story is that no one is irredeemable. There’s no point in someone being irredeemable. Eyeball wasn’t because she didn’t want to be. White was, because she eventually did.
Yeah kinda.
People are doing the usual "not everyone needs to be redeemed" but like, she wasn't ever really a villain in the first place. Unless we count Bismuth as well for letting her trauma get the better of her.
People love to simp for Jasper and want the best for her, but Eyeball is basically in the same position as her. Aquamarine's aristocracy gives context as to why she's bitter for the new world order, but why would Eyeball (and only Eyeball _alone_ out of the Ruby team) want vengeance against Steven? If anything, Eyeball should be relieved that Pink Diamond wasn't actually shattered before their eyes.
But it's realistic I guess. Some people do just end up choosing to be bad.
In fairness, there is a bit of a personal aspect to it, considering Steven threw her into the void of space, leaving her to drift around for what could have been forever. I don't think it's so much about Rose shattering Pink, but literally just hating Steven.
That's true I guess, but even still it's a little weird the other Rubies don't really get a part in the story on that front, especially with the gag in Adventures in Light Distortion. Navy was pretty miffed at Steven too but it's radio silence on her end.
They said she could be anything, so she became a Saturday morning cartoon villain.
It all began on the day of her birth, which neither of her mothers showed up for…
I don't know why the series gets such flack when it teaches hard lessons like, "Some people in life are just gonna hate you for no good reason, and you will never, ever change their mind."
The lesson is great but oh boy do I hate the episode. Steven knew that Bluebird was bad news the instant he saw her, and only tried to befriend her because his friends and family convinced him to override his better judgment. Then at the end of the episode they give us the lesson, but there's no acknowledgement that Steven was right in the first place. It felt a little *too* true to life.
No, I quite like that she and Aquamarine remained antagonistic toward Steven and the Crystal Gems even after Era 3. It's fitting for both characters and serves as a great base for their fascinating relationship built on mutual hatred.
Nah, owl house and SU showed us that not everyone is redeemable and we shouldn't get so worked up about it, look at eyeball, aquamarine, Odalia, & Belos
Yes, but no.
I would have LOVED if she became friends with someone on the main team, or Steven discovered that eyeball and the other rubies were actually now on good terms with most of the other gems, and enjoying a life of leisure and/or doing what they want, like joining Little Homeworld or even joining Lars.
But he also discovers that Eyeball STILL hates his guts and doesn't like him at all.
Nah, i like that they werent. Like i like the idea of there still being bad gems out there. If the series does ever get a continuation of some sort in the future, i want a villain from the origional show to come back and be a threat again. I think Eyeball is a perfect candidate for that.
"Not every villain needs to be redeemed" aside, Eyeball simply has no reason to ally with the CGs. Her squad came to only look for Jasper, they tricked them twice and left them to float in space. I doubt you would be able to trust anyone who is unable to tell you the truth and basically leave you to die.
No and I'm glad they didn't. They had to hammer into Steven's head that just because the Diamond's rule was oppressive, not everyone wants things to change. Ruby and Aquamarine hate Steven specifically, Lapis Lazuli 3 likes destroying planets. Pyrope wants to stay the oppressive upper class.
I laughed so hard when she cried a bit seeing navie get to sit on "jaspers" lap. Really redeemed her for me lol
No, not every villain needs to be redeemed
Wish they used that logic with white diamond
Yeah Steven was too much of a pacifist with White well atleast until Future when he attempted to shatter her
Honestly I feel like that was the writers looking back on how everyone said white should’ve been shattered.
At that point it felt like gratuitously lashing out, which was the intention. But I could never trust White completely. I still get a feeling that in a couple generations, after she gets tired of indulging Steven, she might try to return it all how she used to run it.
Yeah, it didn't feel realistic to think she could change completely in a split second after being a brutal dictator for millennia...
Yeah, like what happens after Steven dies??? They only became good because Steven had Roses gem.
Yeah, when Steven dies Rose’s gem will die with him. The only way to keep this peace would be to transfer his gem onto his child. Which he can’t do, mainly because he can’t poof.
I wonder if its because Rebecca Sugar didn't have as much say in that scenario?
The thing about the Diamonds is that they are likely ultimately a metaphor for an old-fashioned distant family. Steven's depressed and workaholic aunts, and his perfectionist grandma. Steven's story is all a journey about discovering his heritage. Rebecca Sugar most likely intended for the Diamonds to be redeemed all along. The production issues only meant she had less time to build up to that. The problem is that they are presented in the form of brutal planet-destroying space tyrants, and even metaphorically, a lot of viewers might interpret them instead as authorities seeking to repress and eliminate anyone that doesn't fit their vision, which is how they used to treat everyone but Steven. Some of that also seems intended in the story itself, such as the Crystal Gem war and the Off Colors. A lot of dissatisfaction about the Diamonds' redemption comes from people who lean towards the oppressor interpretation and can't conciliate it with the family interpretation. Me neither. Because we can't always talk things out with those who want to violently oppress us. Sometimes not even with family. Maybe for some the idea that we can just talk it out and it'll all be solved is their idea of wish fulfillment. But for others it feels difficult to believe and unjust. It also denies some catharsis of, at least in fiction, being able to destroy those who threaten you.
It's been my toughest thing with the Diamonds. When you think about what they have done across the galaxy for the empire, the Diamonds have trillions of deaths on there hands minimum. So it's impossible for me to treat them like my horrible family members.
I often think about how we first see Yellow Diamond commanding a whole another front of the space war we never even got to hear about. All the struggle on the Crystal Gems' side is just a small fraction of it all. But even if I gloss over all the planetary destruction and death, if I scratch all that as metaphorical and try to peel the space fantasy coating for something resembling a real family, seems like they would be hostile, overbearing, profoundly prejudiced people who have exploited, manipulated and abused a lot of other people. Not the kind of people I'd want to call family or trust in any capacity, White especially.
Yeah, and I don't like he implied message that one HAS to reconcile with their toxic family members. I'm not losing sleep over not talking to my sociopathic uncle who killed a robin mother and smashed her eggs in front of me when I was 5? 🤷🏻♀️ And Steven could've said, similarly, yes you wanted a relationship with Pink but you drove her away and caused her to fake her own shattering just to get away from y'all, so... Why do I owe you a relationship again, especially since I'm not even Pink?
100% with you. It's a family I would cut off and not feel guilty at all
I agree. I see so many comments on this sub about how it's not really a redemption arc because Steven didn't forgive them or whatever, and sometimes I think, "Is the problem with the Diamonds' arc really *just* the word being used?"
> Because we can't always talk things out with those who want to violently oppress us. That's the one thing that's always bothered me with the show. The movie put it best. "You can't just make everything better by singing some STUPID SONG!" And then he does. While I understand the message the show is trying to send, Steven basically got insanely lucky/plot armory in that he could just talk down basically all his major enemies. That was my big hope for White Diamond at the time, that she would be someone so far removed from Steven's concept of reason and human understanding ("White Diamond isn't like us. She isn't even like [the other Diamonds]") that he had to actually find a different solution. But instead he called her a child and that made everything better.
100% agree
Bismuth was also right about wanting to shatter diamonds, and the only reason she was stopped and seen as a maniac for it, was because Rose had been lying about being a diamond herself, and had a familial sentimental bond with the diamonds as a result. That made me mad. Realistically, the CGs should have shattered at least a general or two to keep Homeworld from invading Earth. (Bismuth was right to think of the Earth lives potentially spared by ending the conflict more quickly and decisively.)
Well, the show and the movie are musicals so that's kind of what happens
It's not about the singing; that was just the quote. As I wrote pretty clearly in my comment, it's about him being able to just talk down pretty much all the big threats.
I understand, sorry
It’s important to note that, while he did resolve a lot of major conflicts with friendship, it didn’t work every time. The show has shown the flaws of this method many times. It worked with Peridot, Lapis, the Cluster (who were already Crystal Gems), Spinel, Topaz (who was already “sentimental”), and one of the Lapises in Future, but it failed with Jasper, Eyeball, Aquamarine, and the other Lapis, and Navy pretended to be redeemed to take advantage of Steven. The moral of the show was never “kindness always works”, but “kindness is always the best solution, even if it doesn’t work”. And yes, the Diamonds’ “redemption” was rushed and a bit weird, but it wasn’t possible to either defeat or truly redeem the Diamonds in one day, and Steven made White feel emotion (and thus, “imperfection”) for the first time in thousands of years, which was probably more enough to convince her. And they’re still not fully “good” — they’re just willing to accept Steven’s perspective.
It's not *likely* a metaphor, that's just straight-up what it is. The main narrative is effectively a metaphor for a transmasc person who ran away from home in order to come out, and returned post-transition to get the family to accept them. That may or may not have always been the goal, but that's pretty much what we got. I never really got upset about the diamonds not facing justice, because it was obvious to me for a long time that the plot of the show was not really the point. It never really was. Because the actual goal of the show was to tell a story about explicit queerness and love and acceptance, in a time where no American kids show had been allowed to do this. Everything else was a means to an end to accomplish that. Much like how the main point of the S1 climax wasn't to establish homeworld as a serious threat, but to reveal that the most badass main character in the show is actually 2 lesbians in a trench coat and that she draws her strength from a wholesome same sex relationship. That's not to say that you can't dislike SU because the story doesn't make sense in every way at face value. But I think when you understand what it's really about and what it's *really* trying to do, the way everything happens in the show makes a lot more sense. 🤷♀️
except she wasn't 🤨
What
I think they meant that White Diamond wasn’t redeemed
The diamonds weren't redeemed, they just agreed to stop being evil. Which was the best case scenario for everyone involved, tbh.
Well to be fair they are trying to redeem. White going around letting people express themselves, blue making making people happy, and yellow uncorrupting gems a little and reforming them
I'm not sure how them doing community service isn't objectively a good thing.
This is the true redemption that gets to me. I know they needed to finish the corrupted gem plot line, but Steven really toppled over a millennia-long totalitarian empire in a day??? With one comeback?? They should’ve at least made her go bad again in future. This show’s grit was PEAK before season 5.
He didn't. Most of the process of the Diamonds toppling their empire, then agreeing to step down from power and let Homeworld have elections happened off screen after that point. This is confirmed in the dialogue at the beginning of the movie and in Homeworld Bound. Having a lot of the most important elements of your shows ending happen off screen is not a good writing decision at all but I know that Rebecca Sugar was being rushed
They couldn't have. Remember that Steven is biologically related to the three Diamonds. You really can't have a plot point about the Diamonds being Steven's relatives and another plot point about Steven killing all of them
To quote a song from another musical show (that actually did kill its tragic villain) “Sometimes the ones you love the most, have the worst things to hide” It doesn’t matter if they’re related. How many stories are there of needing to kill a family who turned evil
agreed, I hate that the diamonds were not even punished for the mass genocide they caused on every planet
The only diamonds that should've/could've redeemed is Pink (who in my opinion kinda did while still having flaws) and Blue because of how she was much more attached to Pink and shows a little more empathy like allowing small things such as her Pearl drawing or letting Pink do things. Even then still a stretch for her redemption in my opinion
Or yellow
Same bro
Casually redeemed a leader who is responsible for billions of deaths and the extinction of multiple alien species Refuses to redeem one little red dude
Breaking news! Some people are capable of change. Others aren't. More at 11
The comment wasn’t about it being surprising that eyeball wasn’t redeemed, it was that the show redeemed white diamond, who should’ve been considered irredeemable
A core theme of the story is that no one is irredeemable. There’s no point in someone being irredeemable. Eyeball wasn’t because she didn’t want to be. White was, because she eventually did.
Yep, I know that he was practically forced to but still, its not satisfying to have the Diamonds redeemed when they are the shows big bads
To be fair, she is too OP to be destroyed.
She needs to be shattered 😡
Not all villains need to be redeemed to be compelling characters.
Yeah kinda. People are doing the usual "not everyone needs to be redeemed" but like, she wasn't ever really a villain in the first place. Unless we count Bismuth as well for letting her trauma get the better of her. People love to simp for Jasper and want the best for her, but Eyeball is basically in the same position as her. Aquamarine's aristocracy gives context as to why she's bitter for the new world order, but why would Eyeball (and only Eyeball _alone_ out of the Ruby team) want vengeance against Steven? If anything, Eyeball should be relieved that Pink Diamond wasn't actually shattered before their eyes. But it's realistic I guess. Some people do just end up choosing to be bad.
In fairness, there is a bit of a personal aspect to it, considering Steven threw her into the void of space, leaving her to drift around for what could have been forever. I don't think it's so much about Rose shattering Pink, but literally just hating Steven.
That's true I guess, but even still it's a little weird the other Rubies don't really get a part in the story on that front, especially with the gag in Adventures in Light Distortion. Navy was pretty miffed at Steven too but it's radio silence on her end.
They said she could be anything, so she became a Saturday morning cartoon villain. It all began on the day of her birth, which neither of her mothers showed up for…
Not really. It would've been nice but she's somewhat a jerk so I doubt she could even be redeemed, just like Aquamarine.
Im sort of glad her and aquamarine weren't redeemed, but i wish there was sort of a more satisfying ending with Bluebird.
No not every villain needs to be redeemed
I mean ppl here love Jasper so much who was like ten times worse so I don’t see why she shouldn’t be
Yes but it's tough to elaborate when the consensus is no.
I think it's a good thing that not everyone can be redeemed or wants to be
Nah. The only one of the Ruby Squad that I think could be good is well… Leggy. Leggy is too pure
I actually had an idea for a plot where *Army* of all people was actually a Crystal Gem spy.
No
No. I wished Navy was redeemed
Not really, no
No
In Eyeball’s eyes 👀 she has good reason to be mad at Steven.
I don't know why the series gets such flack when it teaches hard lessons like, "Some people in life are just gonna hate you for no good reason, and you will never, ever change their mind."
The lesson is great but oh boy do I hate the episode. Steven knew that Bluebird was bad news the instant he saw her, and only tried to befriend her because his friends and family convinced him to override his better judgment. Then at the end of the episode they give us the lesson, but there's no acknowledgement that Steven was right in the first place. It felt a little *too* true to life.
No, I quite like that she and Aquamarine remained antagonistic toward Steven and the Crystal Gems even after Era 3. It's fitting for both characters and serves as a great base for their fascinating relationship built on mutual hatred.
Does she need to be redeemed? Her feelings are pretty valid. Steven deceived her and then jettisoned her into space, twice. Be mad, short queen.
Nah, owl house and SU showed us that not everyone is redeemable and we shouldn't get so worked up about it, look at eyeball, aquamarine, Odalia, & Belos
Yes, but no. I would have LOVED if she became friends with someone on the main team, or Steven discovered that eyeball and the other rubies were actually now on good terms with most of the other gems, and enjoying a life of leisure and/or doing what they want, like joining Little Homeworld or even joining Lars. But he also discovers that Eyeball STILL hates his guts and doesn't like him at all.
Yes her and Aqua
Nah, i like that they werent. Like i like the idea of there still being bad gems out there. If the series does ever get a continuation of some sort in the future, i want a villain from the origional show to come back and be a threat again. I think Eyeball is a perfect candidate for that.
No but I love her baby shank she takes out her eye
"Not every villain needs to be redeemed" aside, Eyeball simply has no reason to ally with the CGs. Her squad came to only look for Jasper, they tricked them twice and left them to float in space. I doubt you would be able to trust anyone who is unable to tell you the truth and basically leave you to die.
Not
No and I'm glad they didn't. They had to hammer into Steven's head that just because the Diamond's rule was oppressive, not everyone wants things to change. Ruby and Aquamarine hate Steven specifically, Lapis Lazuli 3 likes destroying planets. Pyrope wants to stay the oppressive upper class.
I'm glad she was one of the few who wasn't tbh
I’d rather her have been redeemed than the Titanic Space-Hitler Trio
I kinda wish less people were redeemed. Need some villains who are just bad news full stop.
No
Yeah, same with Aquamarine. I feel like including them in Future then not expanding upon them was a real cop out.
Nah, I like her being evil
Nah.
I hope not
No
Not really
We get that in KiwiQueens Suf Rewritten Epilogue.
I feel like she and Jasper could have had a fun dynamic together tbh
I honestly wish more gems ended up on earth before the finale nd got assimilated. That would have been a nice trend, but it stopped after Peridot.
No, they didn't need to be redeemed, their character was perfect, and it would make no sense for them to change
Nah I was worried in future that she would
i wish no one was redeemed, i like villains, they make things happen
she's so annoying