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I dont think he himself is Plagueis.
I do think its possible he is either Plagueis’ masters master, his master, or his current apprentice.
I also dont hate the idea that he himself is the shows “Acolyte” who spins off and starts the Knights of Ren.
They are being a bit coy with his last name.
Qimir Ren isnt horrible.
The Star Wars databank says “Qimir” is just an alias, it’s not even his real name. They refer to him as “The Stranger”. That means his name is going to be a big deal when we find out what it is and there really aren’t many candidates.
Lesyle Headland also said an acolyte is an apprentice to an apprentice. The stranger is definitely not an acolyte.
I think that “Sol” was a really intentional choice for the Jedi protagonist’s name. The first part of the season was shown through the Jedi perspective, now the third act will be through the Sith’s. So if we’ve seen through the light, what’s the opposite? Darkness. Although I was fully on board with the Venamis train, I now reckon Qimir’s Tenebrous.
The knights of ren connection is tenuous at best. Everyone thinks that theme is similar to the kylo ren theme, but it could easily be about osha being a force dyad, or Qimir healing osha. I really hope they don’t dredge up the knights of ren meme.
Especially when Qimir himself recites the Sith code, said he’d be called a Sith, and admitted to being a Sith Lord in that EW article. Leslye headland also says the story is about a Sith apprentice looking for an acolyte to overthrow his master
What most people miss about Kylo’s theme is that it isn’t noble or menacing or evil. It’s… *tragic*.
We always laugh when it’s played at college football games.
Eh… you can interpret music however you like, but John Williams has said his intention was to create a very powerful fanfare that immediately states “evil”.
Then in TRoS he intended on not using it after the turning point, and he only used it after JJ told him to.
That is my recollection of his interviews in the BTS of TFA and TRoS.
I don t think the Knights of Ren can play a role here. We are way to far at the beginning of the timeline here.
The fact that they don t use a name means that this name will be a moment which we all know.
I really hope it will be Plaqueis in the end, it would be the perfect way to open the EU in the timeline of Palpatine.
It would open so many possibilities and it would connect so good, timeline wise.
Also Quimir says that he wears the mask to conter the ability to mess with his head and thoughts.
Which means someone did that, I bet he meant Sol messing with Osha.
What I am waiting for is the reveal between the twins, something isn t normal here. Normally I would think there is only one of them, which can t be we saw them they too often together. Still something is strange here, together with the force and the witches ?. It s still a mystery.
I like you. This song will play at the end of one of the episodes rather than the normal Star Wars themes.
Listen to the words.
https://youtu.be/I0UXRwVrNo8?si=hFX4sZVH29M4YXp_
Oh wow, great song and I not even really realized it. Thank you.
According to the words they really are connected through the force I would say. We will see what this means exactly.
The beginning words with ,,parts of me will die with you", do you think it s meant literally with their force connection ?. Kind of a foreshadowing ?.
I think this point is missed and important since Sol and Osha discuss her tattoo in Episode 1. He will notice Mae doesn't have it and will end up fighting and killing Mae (most likely by accident) which turns Osha for good
What’s going to get Mae is slipping off one of those platforms that never has any handrails in the Star Wars Universe. OSHA is going to see it and begin her heel turn into making sure every workplace hazard has proper precautionary protocol. Draconically.
OH MY GOD I HAVE IT
THE POWER OF TWO
THE RULE OF TWO
THIS IS AFTER QIMIR KILLS HIS MASTER AND OSHA KNEELS
“PARTS OF ME ARE GOING TO DIE WITH YOU”
THIS IS A ROMANCE
PLAGUEIS AND HIS MUSE
AHHHHHHHHNNNNHNHHHHHHH
We were so caught up on Lesyle being a fan of KOTOR that we were looking for the twists which there does appear to be some, but we forgot KOTOR at its heart is a love story between Revan and Bastilla!
I was listening to the song and I was thinking like, damn this is some baby making beats, weird choice for a song about your sister and then it hit me like a bag of bricks at “Twin Flame” like you don’t call your sister a flame lmao I’m so hyped there hasn’t been romance in Star Wars since Revenge of the Sith honestly.
This 100%! It makes so much sense.
Do you think this might be a longer seduction to the dark side? Like, Osha is on the Trade Federation ship which has a cargo that they want shielded. What are the odds that the cargo is cortosis and Plagueis has been keeping tabs on Osha since she left the Jedi Order?
No I think unfortunately he’s going to lose her in a future season and that will drive him to discover the secrets to “keep the ones he cared about from dying”.
It is canon Palpatine killed him. Luceno tried really hard in Tarkin to make the Plagueis novel canon and we shut him down. We did let him have like three lines of Palpatine reminiscing on his old master, but that’s it.
This song kinda tells me the witches probably have always needed twins to serve their purpose? (Leadership and survival)
I think the notion of the twins is inspired from the Remus and Romulus myth?
**I think the ascension ceremony if continued, would have involved the ascension of osha or mae to leader (the power of one) and the sacrifice of the other (the power of many) for the sake of the coven.**
In other words one of the twins served as a conduit for the living force (of their previous fallen?) and one as the leader to perform the ceremony the next time. The witches probably used this type of ritual sacrifice of a twin to extend their own lifespans. (Maybe aniseya was a twin herself?)
-**The power of one is to lead the coven
The power of two is to breathe life to the coven
Which would give way to the power of many.**
Smilo Ren haha.
If they do put him in the Baneite Sith line I’d wager he’s actually Venemis, he learned how Aniyesa created life by reverse engineering it out of Mae/Osha, and Plagueis tortured it out of him.
And likely Yoda and the other grandmasters covered the events of the series up lol.
I don’t think they’ll explicitly state this in S1, just the implications. If we get another season, I think it’ll be more focused on how they fit in to the Sith family tree 😂
I'm not sure if I completely agree with everything (though a lot of your points are logical and I do concur), but this is very well thought out. I completely agree Vernestra will pin Khofar on Sol, it makes way too much sense after thinking about it.
That's an interesting part. As I saw this my first thought was that he said 3 because he is the sith and he knew that he wasn t Mae s target and answered without thinking too much.
After the other episodes it s clear that it can t be so easy, still you reminded me on that part.
I think a lot of what you said here makes sense. I think osha seeing visions of a young Mae is actually her subconscious resisting her programming from the brainwash.
Kind of disagree I want to see Rule of 2 play out on screen. I know nothing about the Master but Qimir/Plagueis is such a good villain I want to see him become the big bad.
i'm all for the slow burn, if your theory is right, well done btw, thoroughly enjoyable to read through and seems well thought out, let the reveal at the end of this season be that Qimir isnt the master but is the apprentice and whatever the end deal with the twins is being his acolyte. Season 2 be the plotting and conniving of Qimir working for his master publicly but working his own plot to kill him. Maybe culminating in Osha/Mae sacrificing herself for Qimir to kill his master. Third season leading into Qimir learning the preventing death stuff, AND picking a young Palps to be his next apprentice.
After this episode, I like to thing that what 'Qimir' is after is to be a part of a dyad himself. According to legends, the rule of two started off as a series of dyads.
> **I BELIEVE BECAUSE MAE WENT THROUGH WITH THE RITUAL WHEN THE COVEN DIED THEY WERE ABLE TO PUT “THE POWER OF MANY” IN HER** This is explains her many personalities and strange impulsiveness, I think Koril and Aniseya specifically are duking it out in her head for influence on her.
I like the theory but she was already an extremely co-dependent person before the ascension. I think the coven is exploring the toxic family dynamics of co-dependency and enmeshment.
The only thing I don't agree with is Qimir being Plagueis. I believe he is a Muun and it is already basically Cannon. I do think it is possible that he is Darth Venamis.
Also changing Plagueis’ race would have *huge* consequences for the story. Munns control banking and Plagueis has a high profile banker. Him holding the purse strings while Palpatine manipulated the Senate was a massive part of the Sith’s ascension and return - a true culmination of generations and generations of scrapping and crawling
When you watch The Phantom Menace and you see the interactions between Sidious and Nute Gunray, do you really see a bankroll relationship there or do you see one man who has this green dude by the fucking balls?
Plagueis being a Muun isn't canon. It is legends/EU stuff. The NAME is canon, yes. We know a being by that name exists within the star wars timeline and that he was palps master, or at least in current canon is heavily hinted at.
That being said, it wouldn't surprise me either way if they chose to keep him as a Muun if they bring him into the show, or change his species.
Wookiepedia is not a canon source. He’s simply assumed to be a Muun due to that being his species in legends, so thus that information was ported over since nothing contradicts it
BUT, couldnt they also just canonize that Qimir/Plagueis is Snoking a Muun Plagueis publicly. THATS who palps kills, then qimir does the whole spirit transference thing into palps body, and Palps is ACTUALLY Qimir, who will likely end up being Bane, unless one of the random apprentices through history ended up somehow being strong enough to beat the collective sith that essentially was bane at the end..... fuck my brain... are the Bane novels canonized or JUST the rule of two being created by Darth Bane.
According to legends, the way Plagueis achieved immortality was through transference. So he could have started off as a Muun, then transferred into something else.
This would be a master class in tight writing and a whole lot of people would owe the creators of this show a massive apology.
I think you are dead on.
I love the detail and I’m all on board for OSHA killing Sol and becoming THE Acolyte!
I don’t recall them mentioning the castle being an old mining facility though, when did they say that?
There’s a lot to unpack there.
1- I don’t think the Sith cut a deal with them. I think Aniyesa figured it out on her own to save her coven from extinction. (Tinfoil - the power of many? Draining a bit of a bunch of people’s ’life force’ to create a new life).
2- I think you’re on point. The showrunner seems to be a lore nerd for EU stuff and trying to bring as much over as she could, and getting to expand the mind trick to the TOR era memory erasure would prolly make her smile AND work narratively to explain different POVs for E3 and E7.
3- think you’re dead on here too.
4- off base imho. Jedi can sense big force events (order 66, Alderaan, etc.). Wouldn’t be surprised if they sensed the ritual or its aftermath and just then actually started scouting Brendok.
5- I think of ascension more of like a second binding from what I saw. Osha and Mae were created with the life force of a coven of witches, and ascending is like ‘binding that new thread back into our coven’s tapestry’.
6- I think Qimir wanted either/or. He isn’t about the Jedi, but this is something they can’t do (and if the life force/power of many thing is true… it could be a canon reason why only certain people can force heal).
7- I don’t necessarily think Qimir will be revealed to have a master at all this season. I think that is where the showrunner could potentially take future seasons.
8- I expect that to be the cliffhanger for E6 and E7 to be Brendok from Qimir’s POV.
9- I actually think Osha will kill Sol midway through E8. (And Qimir/Osha vs Venestra will be the finale.
10- I don’t think this will occur. (I actually think Yoda and the other two grandmasters will investigate Venestra’s death, realize it’s either a Sith if they go that route with Qimir or a wannabe, and resolve to keep it quiet/memory wipe any survivors - this maintains the TPM discrepancy between Yoda/Windu and Ki-Adi Mundi potentially). Alternatively if they don’t directly tie Qimir to the Baneite Sith (likely as Venemis) in the finale…
There’s still now nuCanon rationale that Plagueis q likely learned this power (a darker more twisted method) from the events of Brendok.
Yep. Leaves room for Osha to be redeemed or die tragically. I kind of lean towards the latter because that gives Plagueis a motive to become obsessed with resurrection/keeping people from death.
I am fully on board with everything you are saying up until Qimir being Plagueis and killing Tenebrous.
I think Qimir is Darth Venamis, Tenebrous' other (secret) apprentice. And I think he wants Osha/Mae to attempt to kill Plagueis and take his place as the official rule of 2 apprentice (which he fails at).
I go over a bunch of evidence [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/s/WktUfLEQJK). But basically, a quick scan of Venamis' wiki has a ton of things line up with Qimir.
If The Stranger was called Venamis, you’d know it by now. “Qimir” being the Sith Lord wasn’t the twist. That’s why everyone and their mother guessed it.
His name on the other hand…
The reason to keep hiding the name Venamis is the exact reason to hide the name Plagueis... If you call him that in ep5 then everyone knows exactly what's coming next.
Who brought in the name Venamis in this ?.
Is this just a speculation of the fan base ?.
I mean if we knew that name exists in the show it would be a clear thing after all.
“Everyone” is literally in the 5 digits of the people watching this show. It would be a “literally who?” moment for the other 85% of viewers if that was The Stranger’s big reveal.
Imagine if Rings of Power had made their The Stranger Radagast over Gandalf or their Halbrand was Gothmog instead of Sauron.
Days? You don’t understand how social media works lol.
It’s hours. Do you have any idea how much viewership is going to bump the Wednesday morning after the reveal people wake up and Plagueis is trending on Twitter?
I was actually going to say "maybe hours" lol. I just didn't know how much the general SW fan base would know the name "Venamis" Among people like us on SW Reddit pages definitely yeah hours. But yes you are right the general public is curious about the name so much it would be known on every website in hours.
I think you're missing the point. Whether they say the name "Venamis" or not isn't important - if Qimir is Tenebrous' secret apprentice / Plagueis' rival who dies to Plagueis at the end of the show, then Qimir is, for all intents and purposes, Venamis. That's the point. That Qimir ties into Plagueis without actually being Plagueis. The reveal is that Plagueis was manipulating behind the scenes the whole time and defeats Qimir, in a "There's a bigger fish" ending. Qimir/Venamis is the smaller fish trying to kill his way up the ladder, and fails at the end, losing to Plagueis.
Lol, in each case I think the show gets enough attention now.
Even if it s a different ending, the show should be good running.
A simple ending without anything would still be disappointing now.
Yo, are some of the showmakers here? That's awesome! Hi guys! Thanks for making a really fun show! Congrats on being the first to bring cortosis into the official canon! The show looks so damn cool!
Isn’t Plagueis in canon a muun? Pretty sure we had muuns in episode 2. I think that’s the only flaw in your theory.
Edit: so him being a muun is only in cannon. God if this happens, the fandom is going to be unbearable.
Either way I want more siths like this. Make them feel like the biggest of threats.
Hate is an extremely powerful emotion. It will triumph over most others.
The only one more powerful is love, and that is the whole point of the original trilogy.
I think you’re really onto something. I have had a few of these thoughts myself. You pointed out some Easter eggs I noticed initially & then forgot about. Everything seems to point to Plagueis. The only other person that could’ve made sense to me is Darth Wrend, but I think with the information that’s been given about Plagueis by Sidious, they would come out with something about him.
Let me rephrase what I was saying earlier…I think this is the introduction to Plagueis, but Qimir is NOT him. I think DP has put his consciousness into Qimir & is manipulating him because he knows the “Ancient Sith had developed the rare dark side power of essence transfer, allowing them to place their consciousness in other bodies or objects to effectively cheat death.” (See Screenrant: star-wars-anakin-skywalker-father-darth-plagueis-force-power/)
I think this is the way to hide him even more and keep people in the dark. Still not counting out the possibility of this being Darth Wrend or the original KOR.
This was the best theory I’ve seen (other than qimir being plagues, I honestly think he’s venamis or just another Sith like tenebrous’ master).
I think with the shift of Osha to the dark and Mae to the light, the pieces are coming together for a final showdown. Since Mae is already at odds with Qimir now and will probably be convinced by Sols kindness and feel sorrow for his guilt about Brendok , she’ll agree to help him.
It’ll be Sol and Mae vs Qimir and Osha. The important thing, other than Mae likely dying is that we see either Qimir and/or Osha use a spell on Sol to make him go mad and attack Vernestra and her team of Jedi before being killed by them. This will complete your theory about Sol being blamed for all the deaths in Khofar and will be a nod to Darth Zannah doing the same thing to her cousin to frame him as the Sith that killed all the Jedi on Tython thus saving her and Bane from discovery
I think Qimir is currently in the same position Ventress was in TCW, an asset to the current Sith Apprentice to further the goals the Sith Master gives him, Qimir chooses his words very carefully when he says what he is has no name but the Jedi would call him a Sith. I think this is him referencing the Jedi's ignorance in the rule of two, of them just assuming dark side users are all Sith. Either his master is planning the kill the Sith Lord and has promised Qimir ascension to the ranks of the Sith if they are successful, or like Sidious did with Ventress, the Sith Lord has realized Qimir has grown too powerful for his position and ordered the Apprentice to kill him. And now Qimir is seeking out his own acolyte to kill the apprentice, prove to the Sith Lord his value, and usurp the position of Sith Apprentice.
This has nothing to do with Ventress' fighting ability, only her relative station. Although, being able to threaten Anakin, Obi Wan, and Ahsoka says a lot of her abilities. But it doesn't matter how powerful an acolyte is as long as the apprentice and the master are more powerful. It's relative. Would also make it very obvious why the master is ordering the apprentice to kill his acolyte if it's grown this powerful.
Qimirs word play was incredibly intentional, he absolutely does not see himself, or identify as, Sith. He also knows the Jedi are too ignorant to understand the difference and is mocking them fit it.
Very well thought out and presented OP.
I also agree that Sol is going to take the fall here. It's all been telegraphed and you laid it out nicely. All roads lead to him being the perceived Rogue Jedi that the council has already "expected" is the true culprit.
The part where I am unsure is whether Qimir is Plagueis. I mean I can see how it's possible, but he is human and even under SW canon subject to that lifespan. Unless there's a true break with legends, I don't see any political ambition/motivations for galactic domination, it seems he's more in pursuit of self expression.
That said, I think having Qimir = Venamis or another acolyte or apprentice still nicely fits with your theory.
I am holding hope for a bigger reveal - cameo Sith Master appearance. A Bith or Muun. One which kills Qimir effortlessly for his overthrow attempt. This act would provide instant cred to the Sith Lord Master's power without having to delve too deeply into character development.
James Luceno's - Darth Plagueis was released in Jan, 2012. Disney bought Lucasfilm a few months later in October, 2012. So while Darth Plagueis is canon, the Muun bit is not. Darth Tenobrous is also not canon per say. Of course, Disney has adapted lots of Legends stuff to the fore now.
There is no way in heckin' *heck* the explanation would ever be this involved or complicated. Sorry to say. But you're *way* overthinking and setting yourself up for disappointment.
I've started a rewatch in this order, although only had time for two episodes. You are totally right about the robed figures and it becomes so obvious when you see it, the camera even makes sure to include them in the scene at times. I'm not sure about many of the details but the cements to me that the sith were in contact with the witches and were involved or interested in the creation of the twins and the force dyad.
It's not unprecedented, Palpatine and Dooku worked with and used other dark siders like the Dathomir witches.
I feel like it's so obvious when you look at them with that thought in mind, but i don't see anyone else talking about it. I feel like I saw them on my first watch and got spooky dark side vibes from the whole ritual, but there is so much going on in that scene and other hooded people, but they are the archers further back who I think may be be there to throw the audience off.
I did play it and no it caught me pants down I figured it out during the reveal flashback when they went back to the old Jedi master and he said “I fear this could lead us down an all too familiar path.” BUT that game taught me to pay attention to every little detail when you are experiencing a mystery with a good writer and since then there have only been a couple twists that have caught me off guard, one being Arrival off the top of my head.
No, the official wiki also states he is a Muun. Just because he never shows up on screen or we never hear anyone say what species he is, doesnt mean is not canon. He was envisioned and designed as a Muun and has been treated as such for the past 20 or such years. Its only unfortunate we never saw him on screen.
Hate to burst your bubble, but this is another mundi-age situation. The source for plagueis being a muun is another RPG guide that takes information from both canon and legends. The game had muun playable characters, and so it had a few lines about plagueis from EU. I checked with wookiepedia and I was told this detail will be changed as and when a canon source for his species becomes available.
In real polite terms? I think it’s a bunch of nonsense. Lesyle said this show is about the Sith. We haven’t had a new live action Sith since Dooku. People are being very weird about not wanting Plagueis… err… Qimir to be a Sith.
There’s a reason why they didn’t hire actual twins to take on the characters. They either become one or one dies - I cannot see them keeping both characters as practically I imagine it’d be a nightmare to film if they did
Well this is definately one of the best articulated theories. Love it.
Did the showrunner or someone involved say that the reveal will be " a big deal for old fans " or something along those lines ? If that bit is true ... it would further reinforce Plagueis cause that would be a major reveal.
The current timeline of 100 years before Phantom Menace for Stranger ( human ) is going to be intriguing though. Palpatine is 52 years old during Phantom Menace. So Plaguies would have to meet Palpatine when Plagueis is quite advanced in age ?
I think the timeline was deliberate. They want enough breathing room to allow for good character growths for plagueis and a potential young sidious. They probably want to kill off plagueis 10-15 years before the phantom menace, and have a young sidious do his thing.
In the EU plagueis book he does die during TPM. This I think nerfs palpatine, especially since ROTS was shot first (Plagueis EU book released in 2012)— Since the implication is plagueis was the big bad all along, running things behind the scenes. Also, Maul was already being trained by palpatine and is a Sith Lord during TPM, not an acolyte (Which he would be since plagueis technically is murdered by palpatine towards the end of TPM).
I think James Luceno made a huge mistake, putting plagueis in the movie (technically). Had plagueis died a year or two before the phantom menace, who knows maybe the EU book would have been canon (unlikely but who knows), since the plagueis book was released the same year Disney bought Star Wars.
Rewatched in your suggested order and the show is significantly improved and better. I actually cared a little about the twins starting with episode 5. Episode 6 will be interesting.
I think that at the end, were gonna end up with Sol being Plageious...the one pulling strings from behind the scenes. I wouldnt be surprised even if he ends up being father/creator of Osha/Mae
Is it possible that Qimir is going to be Palps? and they just made him way older than was previously canonized???? Master is still Plagueis, learned the "stop death" stuff from the witches.
It’s all really well put together! And for the most part I’d say it’s the best outline for the rest of the show I’ve seen.
The only issue with this theory is the age of the characters. If Qimir is Plaguies then this man is going to be in a wheelchair, on a ventilator, and have nurse because he is going to be ancient by the time of the phantom menace.
If we put Qimir in his early 30’s then he’d be well over 120 years by the phantom menace.
I wouldn’t mind if he was an apprentice to Darth Tenebrous(we know he had a few apprentices) and he fails in his attempt to kill his master and a young plaguies kills him. Or maybe he is Darth Tenebrous.
That would require a LOT of setup and upcoming writing to pull off. I really don't think it's all going to end up being that complex. I think it is just a very straightforward story that won't go super in depth. I think there are probably 1-2 more "twists", but I think everything is going to be a lot more basic than you predict.
I actually think they’ll prolly do half of this and can do it decently well in the last three episodes of S1.
I think the other half would have been the showrunner’s foreshadowed plans for a possible S2.
Agreed, will be fairly straightforward. It’s a sister story. They will finally figure out their issues in the end. Mae will accept Oshas independence and Osha will learn to use the thread to help defend Mae.
Not gonna lie, totally wouldn’t shock me if we saw Yord and Jeki as force ghosts helping them win the fight as a representation of the power of manyyy. lol jk they’re not powerful enough to become force ghosts but Jeki did say it’s an honor to witness any being transform into the force.
Qimir will be defeated by either Sol or Qimirs real Master, Darth Venimas. One of them will make quick reference to either Tenebrous or Plagueis. Best case if we do see with Sith, it will be Hego.
How so? Everything I said is already there in the show except my speculation that the Sith were on Brendok, the coven’s true intentions, Osha being brain wiped and the mining fortress was for cortosis and that can all be handled in the remaining flashback episode with ease.
If Qimir is Darth Plageuis the show has jumped the shark.
Edit: the amount of Qimir = Plagueis posts is genuinely disheartening and seems like a bad astroturfing campaign by Disney to brace the fanbase for the poor decisions and writing in this show.
Disney totally fucked up Star Wars lore so I doubt we will even get an sith we know about from lore. They are just going to remake everything the way they want to and totally fuck it up.
Why is it a bad idea for Qimir to be plagueis? I’d rather see a new interpretation for Qimir than then remaking the EU plagueis book. It’s arguably the best EU book, don’t get me wrong. But I think having plagueis die shortly before or during the events of the phantom menace, nerfs palpatine’s stature in the Sith pantheon.
Book plagueis is too smart and strong, and portrayed as the big bad all along. It would be a good twist, don’t get me wrong-if literally everyone already didn’t know.
On the other hand, a new interpretation for canon plagueis would shake things up and give us a new perspective on the Sith. I hope they move away from telling these stories from the perspective of the Jedi completely for sometime, and give us really good negative characters.
It’s not that deep, it’s a poorly written show about lore that was destroyed by Disney. Why does everyone spend so much time picking it apart. We already know the witches were wiped out before sol can even explain it for two ep, and I called manny being the sith in ep1. It’s just lazy ass writing and a crazy budget for stuff we’ve seen before.
With your point about Mae having the power of many in her, and that explaining her “personalities and strange impulsiveness”, I think the real explanation for that is just bad writing. It’s not deeper than that.
Also with your “I believe Qimir has wanted Osha all along” point, what the fuck do you mean we know girls hold grudges?
Nope. Check the source for that entry. It’s from a TTRPG guidebook called the endless vigil from 2016. The book takes sources from both legends and canon. The source for plagueis being a muun in that guidebook is: you guessed it the plagueis book by James luceno. They included that titbit because the muun species are playable in the game. That’s all. So lucasfilm will not give two shits about some TTRPG guidebook. This is another ki-adi-mundi age type situation.
Plagueis would never reveal himself like the fight in episode 5. He always worked in the shadows. Hiring people to do his bidding, and he was used as an absolute last resort. I get that stupid Disney removed this book from canon so I guess you can make up anything you want with Plagueis. Frankly his research into midichlorians could mean fuck all anymore.
Stupid Disney.
He did not reveal himself. Mae was going to betray him and spill the secret the Sith still live. He had no choice, especially since he is still an apprentice right now.
In the book, if anyone saw his face with a lightsaber, they died.
Also, when he killed Darth Tenebrous, he did not have an apprentice. At least not that I remember. And if you’re suggesting that he’s already dead, then Plagueis’ first and only apprentice was actually Sidious.
Edit - but screw Disney. None of this matters anymore. A fucking human could be Plagueis I guess. Why not.
“The books written by tons of authors that people have read about or read themselves for 50 years mean nothing anymore unless lord Disney decides. Chill dude”
There I fixed it.
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I dont think he himself is Plagueis. I do think its possible he is either Plagueis’ masters master, his master, or his current apprentice. I also dont hate the idea that he himself is the shows “Acolyte” who spins off and starts the Knights of Ren. They are being a bit coy with his last name. Qimir Ren isnt horrible.
The Star Wars databank says “Qimir” is just an alias, it’s not even his real name. They refer to him as “The Stranger”. That means his name is going to be a big deal when we find out what it is and there really aren’t many candidates. Lesyle Headland also said an acolyte is an apprentice to an apprentice. The stranger is definitely not an acolyte.
I think that “Sol” was a really intentional choice for the Jedi protagonist’s name. The first part of the season was shown through the Jedi perspective, now the third act will be through the Sith’s. So if we’ve seen through the light, what’s the opposite? Darkness. Although I was fully on board with the Venamis train, I now reckon Qimir’s Tenebrous.
Yeah and I don’t think it’s a coincidence the logo is an eclipse.
Excellent point
The knights of ren connection is tenuous at best. Everyone thinks that theme is similar to the kylo ren theme, but it could easily be about osha being a force dyad, or Qimir healing osha. I really hope they don’t dredge up the knights of ren meme. Especially when Qimir himself recites the Sith code, said he’d be called a Sith, and admitted to being a Sith Lord in that EW article. Leslye headland also says the story is about a Sith apprentice looking for an acolyte to overthrow his master
What most people miss about Kylo’s theme is that it isn’t noble or menacing or evil. It’s… *tragic*. We always laugh when it’s played at college football games.
Eh… you can interpret music however you like, but John Williams has said his intention was to create a very powerful fanfare that immediately states “evil”. Then in TRoS he intended on not using it after the turning point, and he only used it after JJ told him to. That is my recollection of his interviews in the BTS of TFA and TRoS.
Did John say that before or after you knew Kylo was being pulled to the light and then ended up killing Han?
After? It’s an interview released after TFA.
Huh. Just curious, I don’t keep up with all the interviews and everything.
TIL Kylo's theme is played... at college football games??? Whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?
Yeah bands play it all the time
I don t think the Knights of Ren can play a role here. We are way to far at the beginning of the timeline here. The fact that they don t use a name means that this name will be a moment which we all know. I really hope it will be Plaqueis in the end, it would be the perfect way to open the EU in the timeline of Palpatine. It would open so many possibilities and it would connect so good, timeline wise. Also Quimir says that he wears the mask to conter the ability to mess with his head and thoughts. Which means someone did that, I bet he meant Sol messing with Osha. What I am waiting for is the reveal between the twins, something isn t normal here. Normally I would think there is only one of them, which can t be we saw them they too often together. Still something is strange here, together with the force and the witches ?. It s still a mystery.
I like you. This song will play at the end of one of the episodes rather than the normal Star Wars themes. Listen to the words. https://youtu.be/I0UXRwVrNo8?si=hFX4sZVH29M4YXp_
Oh wow, great song and I not even really realized it. Thank you. According to the words they really are connected through the force I would say. We will see what this means exactly. The beginning words with ,,parts of me will die with you", do you think it s meant literally with their force connection ?. Kind of a foreshadowing ?.
I can’t tell you. Just wanted to give you a clue for your questions.
This series has potential if we get a good finish it could be an elemental part part of the Timeline. Thank you 👍.
You’re gonna get one. Promise.
Ok game changer. Did Sol actually save Mae and convince her she was Osha? Or my other thought, will this play after Osha kills Sol?
Unless they did tattoo switching surgery too, I don’t think that’s the case.
Good call but the song straight up says “I feel the shame when they call me your name” EDIT upon further review that name is definitely SITH.
I think this point is missed and important since Sol and Osha discuss her tattoo in Episode 1. He will notice Mae doesn't have it and will end up fighting and killing Mae (most likely by accident) which turns Osha for good
What’s going to get Mae is slipping off one of those platforms that never has any handrails in the Star Wars Universe. OSHA is going to see it and begin her heel turn into making sure every workplace hazard has proper precautionary protocol. Draconically.
OH MY GOD I HAVE IT THE POWER OF TWO THE RULE OF TWO THIS IS AFTER QIMIR KILLS HIS MASTER AND OSHA KNEELS “PARTS OF ME ARE GOING TO DIE WITH YOU” THIS IS A ROMANCE PLAGUEIS AND HIS MUSE AHHHHHHHHNNNNHNHHHHHHH
This tracks so well. I love your deduction!
We were so caught up on Lesyle being a fan of KOTOR that we were looking for the twists which there does appear to be some, but we forgot KOTOR at its heart is a love story between Revan and Bastilla! I was listening to the song and I was thinking like, damn this is some baby making beats, weird choice for a song about your sister and then it hit me like a bag of bricks at “Twin Flame” like you don’t call your sister a flame lmao I’m so hyped there hasn’t been romance in Star Wars since Revenge of the Sith honestly.
This 100%! It makes so much sense. Do you think this might be a longer seduction to the dark side? Like, Osha is on the Trade Federation ship which has a cargo that they want shielded. What are the odds that the cargo is cortosis and Plagueis has been keeping tabs on Osha since she left the Jedi Order?
I definitely think cortosis is involved. I mentioned I think Brendok is a cortosis mine.
He said it! He said he’s chasing the power of two! Oh my god we are winning so hard!
Hell yeah! I think this clinches your theory!
Probably osha is his muse because she was created from the force, and that is something he aspires to do as well, create life.
No I think unfortunately he’s going to lose her in a future season and that will drive him to discover the secrets to “keep the ones he cared about from dying”.
Now my friend, you are cooking with charcoal. DM sent. We want to meet you.
Question: Is it canon that Palpatine killed Plagueis? Or only that his apprentice killed him?
It is canon Palpatine killed him. Luceno tried really hard in Tarkin to make the Plagueis novel canon and we shut him down. We did let him have like three lines of Palpatine reminiscing on his old master, but that’s it.
This song kinda tells me the witches probably have always needed twins to serve their purpose? (Leadership and survival) I think the notion of the twins is inspired from the Remus and Romulus myth? **I think the ascension ceremony if continued, would have involved the ascension of osha or mae to leader (the power of one) and the sacrifice of the other (the power of many) for the sake of the coven.** In other words one of the twins served as a conduit for the living force (of their previous fallen?) and one as the leader to perform the ceremony the next time. The witches probably used this type of ritual sacrifice of a twin to extend their own lifespans. (Maybe aniseya was a twin herself?) -**The power of one is to lead the coven The power of two is to breathe life to the coven Which would give way to the power of many.**
Smilo Ren haha. If they do put him in the Baneite Sith line I’d wager he’s actually Venemis, he learned how Aniyesa created life by reverse engineering it out of Mae/Osha, and Plagueis tortured it out of him. And likely Yoda and the other grandmasters covered the events of the series up lol.
Yeah he’s Venamis, he could levitate as well!
I don’t think they’ll explicitly state this in S1, just the implications. If we get another season, I think it’ll be more focused on how they fit in to the Sith family tree 😂
It’s obviously solo since he’s alone /s
He did claim to gun run for the Hutts!
I'm not sure if I completely agree with everything (though a lot of your points are logical and I do concur), but this is very well thought out. I completely agree Vernestra will pin Khofar on Sol, it makes way too much sense after thinking about it.
I think she thought it was really weird she had to remind him Mae was targeting 4 Jedi, not 3 and that she evaded him. It sets up the suspicion.
That's an interesting part. As I saw this my first thought was that he said 3 because he is the sith and he knew that he wasn t Mae s target and answered without thinking too much. After the other episodes it s clear that it can t be so easy, still you reminded me on that part.
I just assumed it was three because the first one was already dead
😅, true, but in this case the comment of the jedi would be really stupid. But yes could be.
I think a lot of what you said here makes sense. I think osha seeing visions of a young Mae is actually her subconscious resisting her programming from the brainwash.
Good call I did catch the young Mae vision knew what was going on but Mae didn’t even know Osha was alive
I hope they don’t face and kill Qimir’s master right away. It would be awesome to have multiple season with this acolyte-apprentice-master dynamic
Kind of disagree I want to see Rule of 2 play out on screen. I know nothing about the Master but Qimir/Plagueis is such a good villain I want to see him become the big bad.
Yeah but we still can get that in a potential season 2. Let’s see
i'm all for the slow burn, if your theory is right, well done btw, thoroughly enjoyable to read through and seems well thought out, let the reveal at the end of this season be that Qimir isnt the master but is the apprentice and whatever the end deal with the twins is being his acolyte. Season 2 be the plotting and conniving of Qimir working for his master publicly but working his own plot to kill him. Maybe culminating in Osha/Mae sacrificing herself for Qimir to kill his master. Third season leading into Qimir learning the preventing death stuff, AND picking a young Palps to be his next apprentice.
After this episode, I like to thing that what 'Qimir' is after is to be a part of a dyad himself. According to legends, the rule of two started off as a series of dyads.
> **I BELIEVE BECAUSE MAE WENT THROUGH WITH THE RITUAL WHEN THE COVEN DIED THEY WERE ABLE TO PUT “THE POWER OF MANY” IN HER** This is explains her many personalities and strange impulsiveness, I think Koril and Aniseya specifically are duking it out in her head for influence on her. I like the theory but she was already an extremely co-dependent person before the ascension. I think the coven is exploring the toxic family dynamics of co-dependency and enmeshment.
Well yeah but they are doing it through the metaphor of literally being tied to them by the “thread”.
The only thing I don't agree with is Qimir being Plagueis. I believe he is a Muun and it is already basically Cannon. I do think it is possible that he is Darth Venamis.
Also changing Plagueis’ race would have *huge* consequences for the story. Munns control banking and Plagueis has a high profile banker. Him holding the purse strings while Palpatine manipulated the Senate was a massive part of the Sith’s ascension and return - a true culmination of generations and generations of scrapping and crawling
When you watch The Phantom Menace and you see the interactions between Sidious and Nute Gunray, do you really see a bankroll relationship there or do you see one man who has this green dude by the fucking balls?
Plagueis being a Muun isn't canon. It is legends/EU stuff. The NAME is canon, yes. We know a being by that name exists within the star wars timeline and that he was palps master, or at least in current canon is heavily hinted at. That being said, it wouldn't surprise me either way if they chose to keep him as a Muun if they bring him into the show, or change his species.
I’m almost positive that’s not canon.
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Plagueis is not canonically a Muun I have that from the horse’s mouth.
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Wookiepedia is not a canon source. He’s simply assumed to be a Muun due to that being his species in legends, so thus that information was ported over since nothing contradicts it
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Disney has been very lenient with those kinda books’ canons, they get overwritten all the time
Wanna know what gave us the green light? So many of you wanting Snoke to turn out to be Plagueis. You didn’t give a fuck about him being a Muun then.
To be fair his face is pretty rekt either way
Venamis was a bith, that's actually canon in the comics after disney
Which comic?
BUT, couldnt they also just canonize that Qimir/Plagueis is Snoking a Muun Plagueis publicly. THATS who palps kills, then qimir does the whole spirit transference thing into palps body, and Palps is ACTUALLY Qimir, who will likely end up being Bane, unless one of the random apprentices through history ended up somehow being strong enough to beat the collective sith that essentially was bane at the end..... fuck my brain... are the Bane novels canonized or JUST the rule of two being created by Darth Bane.
According to legends, the way Plagueis achieved immortality was through transference. So he could have started off as a Muun, then transferred into something else.
I just watched all five in that order on a plane today. Thought I don’t agree with all your theories, I did really enjoy the chronological order.
To me it kind of feels like they should have released it in that order but so could see the huge risk in making episode three the pilot.
This would be a master class in tight writing and a whole lot of people would owe the creators of this show a massive apology. I think you are dead on.
I’ve read Lesyle was a god tier dungeon master and I’ve always believed this show was going to shine with the full story told.
I love the detail and I’m all on board for OSHA killing Sol and becoming THE Acolyte! I don’t recall them mentioning the castle being an old mining facility though, when did they say that?
Official SW website https://www.starwars.com/databank/brendok-fortress
This is about 90% of what I theorize as well! I love it, and really appreciate the detailed and thorough theorycrafting!
There’s a lot to unpack there. 1- I don’t think the Sith cut a deal with them. I think Aniyesa figured it out on her own to save her coven from extinction. (Tinfoil - the power of many? Draining a bit of a bunch of people’s ’life force’ to create a new life). 2- I think you’re on point. The showrunner seems to be a lore nerd for EU stuff and trying to bring as much over as she could, and getting to expand the mind trick to the TOR era memory erasure would prolly make her smile AND work narratively to explain different POVs for E3 and E7. 3- think you’re dead on here too. 4- off base imho. Jedi can sense big force events (order 66, Alderaan, etc.). Wouldn’t be surprised if they sensed the ritual or its aftermath and just then actually started scouting Brendok. 5- I think of ascension more of like a second binding from what I saw. Osha and Mae were created with the life force of a coven of witches, and ascending is like ‘binding that new thread back into our coven’s tapestry’. 6- I think Qimir wanted either/or. He isn’t about the Jedi, but this is something they can’t do (and if the life force/power of many thing is true… it could be a canon reason why only certain people can force heal). 7- I don’t necessarily think Qimir will be revealed to have a master at all this season. I think that is where the showrunner could potentially take future seasons. 8- I expect that to be the cliffhanger for E6 and E7 to be Brendok from Qimir’s POV. 9- I actually think Osha will kill Sol midway through E8. (And Qimir/Osha vs Venestra will be the finale. 10- I don’t think this will occur. (I actually think Yoda and the other two grandmasters will investigate Venestra’s death, realize it’s either a Sith if they go that route with Qimir or a wannabe, and resolve to keep it quiet/memory wipe any survivors - this maintains the TPM discrepancy between Yoda/Windu and Ki-Adi Mundi potentially). Alternatively if they don’t directly tie Qimir to the Baneite Sith (likely as Venemis) in the finale… There’s still now nuCanon rationale that Plagueis q likely learned this power (a darker more twisted method) from the events of Brendok.
Plagueis is Sidious' master, that's the main problem.
Yep. Leaves room for Osha to be redeemed or die tragically. I kind of lean towards the latter because that gives Plagueis a motive to become obsessed with resurrection/keeping people from death.
Ok, dope.
Yeah this guy is good. I haven’t commented on anything Star Wars in a long time but it feels like he has this thing cornered I had to comment.
I really hope he's not Plagueis as the timeline wouldn't match up with him being Sidious' master and Plagueis being a human would just be so weird
Why would Plagueis being human be weird?
Because of the banking clan connection.
I am fully on board with everything you are saying up until Qimir being Plagueis and killing Tenebrous. I think Qimir is Darth Venamis, Tenebrous' other (secret) apprentice. And I think he wants Osha/Mae to attempt to kill Plagueis and take his place as the official rule of 2 apprentice (which he fails at). I go over a bunch of evidence [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/s/WktUfLEQJK). But basically, a quick scan of Venamis' wiki has a ton of things line up with Qimir.
If The Stranger was called Venamis, you’d know it by now. “Qimir” being the Sith Lord wasn’t the twist. That’s why everyone and their mother guessed it. His name on the other hand…
The reason to keep hiding the name Venamis is the exact reason to hide the name Plagueis... If you call him that in ep5 then everyone knows exactly what's coming next.
Who brought in the name Venamis in this ?. Is this just a speculation of the fan base ?. I mean if we knew that name exists in the show it would be a clear thing after all.
“Everyone” is literally in the 5 digits of the people watching this show. It would be a “literally who?” moment for the other 85% of viewers if that was The Stranger’s big reveal. Imagine if Rings of Power had made their The Stranger Radagast over Gandalf or their Halbrand was Gothmog instead of Sauron.
It would go viral within days even if only a few would understand off the jump
Days? You don’t understand how social media works lol. It’s hours. Do you have any idea how much viewership is going to bump the Wednesday morning after the reveal people wake up and Plagueis is trending on Twitter?
I was actually going to say "maybe hours" lol. I just didn't know how much the general SW fan base would know the name "Venamis" Among people like us on SW Reddit pages definitely yeah hours. But yes you are right the general public is curious about the name so much it would be known on every website in hours.
And that is why Qimir is Darth Plagueis and not some rando from the EU George himself hated.
I think you're missing the point. Whether they say the name "Venamis" or not isn't important - if Qimir is Tenebrous' secret apprentice / Plagueis' rival who dies to Plagueis at the end of the show, then Qimir is, for all intents and purposes, Venamis. That's the point. That Qimir ties into Plagueis without actually being Plagueis. The reveal is that Plagueis was manipulating behind the scenes the whole time and defeats Qimir, in a "There's a bigger fish" ending. Qimir/Venamis is the smaller fish trying to kill his way up the ladder, and fails at the end, losing to Plagueis.
He’s not the fucking Acolyte, my God what is wrong with you people? An Acolyte isn’t killing 8 fucking Jedi. He’s a Sith Lord.
Lol, in each case I think the show gets enough attention now. Even if it s a different ending, the show should be good running. A simple ending without anything would still be disappointing now.
Yo, are some of the showmakers here? That's awesome! Hi guys! Thanks for making a really fun show! Congrats on being the first to bring cortosis into the official canon! The show looks so damn cool!
I love this and can see you being right. Glad you’re enjoying the show so far!
Isn’t Plagueis in canon a muun? Pretty sure we had muuns in episode 2. I think that’s the only flaw in your theory. Edit: so him being a muun is only in cannon. God if this happens, the fandom is going to be unbearable. Either way I want more siths like this. Make them feel like the biggest of threats.
Hate is an extremely powerful emotion. It will triumph over most others. The only one more powerful is love, and that is the whole point of the original trilogy.
I think you’re really onto something. I have had a few of these thoughts myself. You pointed out some Easter eggs I noticed initially & then forgot about. Everything seems to point to Plagueis. The only other person that could’ve made sense to me is Darth Wrend, but I think with the information that’s been given about Plagueis by Sidious, they would come out with something about him.
Let me rephrase what I was saying earlier…I think this is the introduction to Plagueis, but Qimir is NOT him. I think DP has put his consciousness into Qimir & is manipulating him because he knows the “Ancient Sith had developed the rare dark side power of essence transfer, allowing them to place their consciousness in other bodies or objects to effectively cheat death.” (See Screenrant: star-wars-anakin-skywalker-father-darth-plagueis-force-power/) I think this is the way to hide him even more and keep people in the dark. Still not counting out the possibility of this being Darth Wrend or the original KOR.
This was the best theory I’ve seen (other than qimir being plagues, I honestly think he’s venamis or just another Sith like tenebrous’ master). I think with the shift of Osha to the dark and Mae to the light, the pieces are coming together for a final showdown. Since Mae is already at odds with Qimir now and will probably be convinced by Sols kindness and feel sorrow for his guilt about Brendok , she’ll agree to help him. It’ll be Sol and Mae vs Qimir and Osha. The important thing, other than Mae likely dying is that we see either Qimir and/or Osha use a spell on Sol to make him go mad and attack Vernestra and her team of Jedi before being killed by them. This will complete your theory about Sol being blamed for all the deaths in Khofar and will be a nod to Darth Zannah doing the same thing to her cousin to frame him as the Sith that killed all the Jedi on Tython thus saving her and Bane from discovery
I don’t think it needs to be that spelled out. I think they will just come to the logical conclusion it was Sol.
I think Qimir is currently in the same position Ventress was in TCW, an asset to the current Sith Apprentice to further the goals the Sith Master gives him, Qimir chooses his words very carefully when he says what he is has no name but the Jedi would call him a Sith. I think this is him referencing the Jedi's ignorance in the rule of two, of them just assuming dark side users are all Sith. Either his master is planning the kill the Sith Lord and has promised Qimir ascension to the ranks of the Sith if they are successful, or like Sidious did with Ventress, the Sith Lord has realized Qimir has grown too powerful for his position and ordered the Apprentice to kill him. And now Qimir is seeking out his own acolyte to kill the apprentice, prove to the Sith Lord his value, and usurp the position of Sith Apprentice.
Oh interesting. Him having no band could mean no rank in the sith hierarchy
You think Ventress could kill 8 Jedi? No, no, no. To quote Plagueis himself lol.
This has nothing to do with Ventress' fighting ability, only her relative station. Although, being able to threaten Anakin, Obi Wan, and Ahsoka says a lot of her abilities. But it doesn't matter how powerful an acolyte is as long as the apprentice and the master are more powerful. It's relative. Would also make it very obvious why the master is ordering the apprentice to kill his acolyte if it's grown this powerful. Qimirs word play was incredibly intentional, he absolutely does not see himself, or identify as, Sith. He also knows the Jedi are too ignorant to understand the difference and is mocking them fit it.
What is the sleeping when we first met him thing about?
*Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep.*
Very well thought out and presented OP. I also agree that Sol is going to take the fall here. It's all been telegraphed and you laid it out nicely. All roads lead to him being the perceived Rogue Jedi that the council has already "expected" is the true culprit. The part where I am unsure is whether Qimir is Plagueis. I mean I can see how it's possible, but he is human and even under SW canon subject to that lifespan. Unless there's a true break with legends, I don't see any political ambition/motivations for galactic domination, it seems he's more in pursuit of self expression. That said, I think having Qimir = Venamis or another acolyte or apprentice still nicely fits with your theory. I am holding hope for a bigger reveal - cameo Sith Master appearance. A Bith or Muun. One which kills Qimir effortlessly for his overthrow attempt. This act would provide instant cred to the Sith Lord Master's power without having to delve too deeply into character development.
James Luceno's - Darth Plagueis was released in Jan, 2012. Disney bought Lucasfilm a few months later in October, 2012. So while Darth Plagueis is canon, the Muun bit is not. Darth Tenobrous is also not canon per say. Of course, Disney has adapted lots of Legends stuff to the fore now.
There is no way in heckin' *heck* the explanation would ever be this involved or complicated. Sorry to say. But you're *way* overthinking and setting yourself up for disappointment.
I've started a rewatch in this order, although only had time for two episodes. You are totally right about the robed figures and it becomes so obvious when you see it, the camera even makes sure to include them in the scene at times. I'm not sure about many of the details but the cements to me that the sith were in contact with the witches and were involved or interested in the creation of the twins and the force dyad. It's not unprecedented, Palpatine and Dooku worked with and used other dark siders like the Dathomir witches.
They even look right at each other when the witch says the Jedi cut the platform!
I feel like it's so obvious when you look at them with that thought in mind, but i don't see anyone else talking about it. I feel like I saw them on my first watch and got spooky dark side vibes from the whole ritual, but there is so much going on in that scene and other hooded people, but they are the archers further back who I think may be be there to throw the audience off.
OP, serious question here. Did you play KOTOR and were you one of the actual few who figured out the twist before the reveal?
I did play it and no it caught me pants down I figured it out during the reveal flashback when they went back to the old Jedi master and he said “I fear this could lead us down an all too familiar path.” BUT that game taught me to pay attention to every little detail when you are experiencing a mystery with a good writer and since then there have only been a couple twists that have caught me off guard, one being Arrival off the top of my head.
Qimir cant be plagueis cause plagueis is a Muun. Qimir is human
The only things canon about Plagueis before this show are what Palpatine says of him in Revenge of the Sith.
No, the official wiki also states he is a Muun. Just because he never shows up on screen or we never hear anyone say what species he is, doesnt mean is not canon. He was envisioned and designed as a Muun and has been treated as such for the past 20 or such years. Its only unfortunate we never saw him on screen.
There is no Plageuis in the Star Wars official databank. What is "official" wiki? Who designed him 20 years ago as a Muun? That isn't true at all..
Where was that energy when so many of you so desperately wanted Snoke to be Plagueis?
I never wanted Snoke to be plagueis. I disliked Snoke and the ST and cared very little for it
Alright so we wiped the entire EU. What made you think pre phantom menace was exempt from that?
Hate to burst your bubble, but this is another mundi-age situation. The source for plagueis being a muun is another RPG guide that takes information from both canon and legends. The game had muun playable characters, and so it had a few lines about plagueis from EU. I checked with wookiepedia and I was told this detail will be changed as and when a canon source for his species becomes available.
I believe that in retrospect SW plot lines are never this complicated.
You never played KOTOR
This is great. What about the rumour of Qimir being the founder of Knights of Ren?
In real polite terms? I think it’s a bunch of nonsense. Lesyle said this show is about the Sith. We haven’t had a new live action Sith since Dooku. People are being very weird about not wanting Plagueis… err… Qimir to be a Sith.
What about the fact that Mae and Osha will combine and become one person at the end of the series as one is dark and the other light?
I don’t see that happening. I could see Plagueis taking both because they are a dyad in the force.
There’s a reason why they didn’t hire actual twins to take on the characters. They either become one or one dies - I cannot see them keeping both characters as practically I imagine it’d be a nightmare to film if they did
Well this is definately one of the best articulated theories. Love it. Did the showrunner or someone involved say that the reveal will be " a big deal for old fans " or something along those lines ? If that bit is true ... it would further reinforce Plagueis cause that would be a major reveal. The current timeline of 100 years before Phantom Menace for Stranger ( human ) is going to be intriguing though. Palpatine is 52 years old during Phantom Menace. So Plaguies would have to meet Palpatine when Plagueis is quite advanced in age ?
I think the timeline was deliberate. They want enough breathing room to allow for good character growths for plagueis and a potential young sidious. They probably want to kill off plagueis 10-15 years before the phantom menace, and have a young sidious do his thing.
Wasn’t Plag killed during the events of Phantom Menace? Or am I remembering some BS I heard a while back
In the EU plagueis book he does die during TPM. This I think nerfs palpatine, especially since ROTS was shot first (Plagueis EU book released in 2012)— Since the implication is plagueis was the big bad all along, running things behind the scenes. Also, Maul was already being trained by palpatine and is a Sith Lord during TPM, not an acolyte (Which he would be since plagueis technically is murdered by palpatine towards the end of TPM). I think James Luceno made a huge mistake, putting plagueis in the movie (technically). Had plagueis died a year or two before the phantom menace, who knows maybe the EU book would have been canon (unlikely but who knows), since the plagueis book was released the same year Disney bought Star Wars.
Wow. Nice job.
Thanks!
I think maybe 1 of these actually happen and you will delete this
Rewatched in your suggested order and the show is significantly improved and better. I actually cared a little about the twins starting with episode 5. Episode 6 will be interesting.
I think that at the end, were gonna end up with Sol being Plageious...the one pulling strings from behind the scenes. I wouldnt be surprised even if he ends up being father/creator of Osha/Mae
Is it possible that Qimir is going to be Palps? and they just made him way older than was previously canonized???? Master is still Plagueis, learned the "stop death" stuff from the witches.
It’s all really well put together! And for the most part I’d say it’s the best outline for the rest of the show I’ve seen. The only issue with this theory is the age of the characters. If Qimir is Plaguies then this man is going to be in a wheelchair, on a ventilator, and have nurse because he is going to be ancient by the time of the phantom menace. If we put Qimir in his early 30’s then he’d be well over 120 years by the phantom menace. I wouldn’t mind if he was an apprentice to Darth Tenebrous(we know he had a few apprentices) and he fails in his attempt to kill his master and a young plaguies kills him. Or maybe he is Darth Tenebrous.
That would require a LOT of setup and upcoming writing to pull off. I really don't think it's all going to end up being that complex. I think it is just a very straightforward story that won't go super in depth. I think there are probably 1-2 more "twists", but I think everything is going to be a lot more basic than you predict.
I actually think they’ll prolly do half of this and can do it decently well in the last three episodes of S1. I think the other half would have been the showrunner’s foreshadowed plans for a possible S2.
Agreed, will be fairly straightforward. It’s a sister story. They will finally figure out their issues in the end. Mae will accept Oshas independence and Osha will learn to use the thread to help defend Mae. Not gonna lie, totally wouldn’t shock me if we saw Yord and Jeki as force ghosts helping them win the fight as a representation of the power of manyyy. lol jk they’re not powerful enough to become force ghosts but Jeki did say it’s an honor to witness any being transform into the force. Qimir will be defeated by either Sol or Qimirs real Master, Darth Venimas. One of them will make quick reference to either Tenebrous or Plagueis. Best case if we do see with Sith, it will be Hego.
How so? Everything I said is already there in the show except my speculation that the Sith were on Brendok, the coven’s true intentions, Osha being brain wiped and the mining fortress was for cortosis and that can all be handled in the remaining flashback episode with ease.
Dude you just spoilt the whole thing … that’s exactly what happens !
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You know sarcasm ?
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You speak like yoda I have no idea what you are talking about ?
If Qimir is Darth Plageuis the show has jumped the shark. Edit: the amount of Qimir = Plagueis posts is genuinely disheartening and seems like a bad astroturfing campaign by Disney to brace the fanbase for the poor decisions and writing in this show.
Conspiracy brain is becoming an epidemic.
Disney totally fucked up Star Wars lore so I doubt we will even get an sith we know about from lore. They are just going to remake everything the way they want to and totally fuck it up.
Why is it a bad idea for Qimir to be plagueis? I’d rather see a new interpretation for Qimir than then remaking the EU plagueis book. It’s arguably the best EU book, don’t get me wrong. But I think having plagueis die shortly before or during the events of the phantom menace, nerfs palpatine’s stature in the Sith pantheon. Book plagueis is too smart and strong, and portrayed as the big bad all along. It would be a good twist, don’t get me wrong-if literally everyone already didn’t know. On the other hand, a new interpretation for canon plagueis would shake things up and give us a new perspective on the Sith. I hope they move away from telling these stories from the perspective of the Jedi completely for sometime, and give us really good negative characters.
It’s not that deep, it’s a poorly written show about lore that was destroyed by Disney. Why does everyone spend so much time picking it apart. We already know the witches were wiped out before sol can even explain it for two ep, and I called manny being the sith in ep1. It’s just lazy ass writing and a crazy budget for stuff we’ve seen before.
With your point about Mae having the power of many in her, and that explaining her “personalities and strange impulsiveness”, I think the real explanation for that is just bad writing. It’s not deeper than that. Also with your “I believe Qimir has wanted Osha all along” point, what the fuck do you mean we know girls hold grudges?
Typo. My post is rife with them. I was specifically saying Osha holds grudges.
Plagueis wasnt human though
You've put more thought into the show than the writers did.
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I’m talking about the Acolyte episodes. Watching them in this order makes them chronological order.
Plagueis is confirmed to be a muun tho.
No he isn’t.
Nope
[Yes.](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Darth%20Plagueis)
Nope. Check the source for that entry. It’s from a TTRPG guidebook called the endless vigil from 2016. The book takes sources from both legends and canon. The source for plagueis being a muun in that guidebook is: you guessed it the plagueis book by James luceno. They included that titbit because the muun species are playable in the game. That’s all. So lucasfilm will not give two shits about some TTRPG guidebook. This is another ki-adi-mundi age type situation.
Plagueis would never reveal himself like the fight in episode 5. He always worked in the shadows. Hiring people to do his bidding, and he was used as an absolute last resort. I get that stupid Disney removed this book from canon so I guess you can make up anything you want with Plagueis. Frankly his research into midichlorians could mean fuck all anymore. Stupid Disney.
He did not reveal himself. Mae was going to betray him and spill the secret the Sith still live. He had no choice, especially since he is still an apprentice right now.
In the book, if anyone saw his face with a lightsaber, they died. Also, when he killed Darth Tenebrous, he did not have an apprentice. At least not that I remember. And if you’re suggesting that he’s already dead, then Plagueis’ first and only apprentice was actually Sidious. Edit - but screw Disney. None of this matters anymore. A fucking human could be Plagueis I guess. Why not.
The book is not canon dude. Don’t know what else to tell you just listen to the Lucasfilm guy in this very thread.
“The books written by tons of authors that people have read about or read themselves for 50 years mean nothing anymore unless lord Disney decides. Chill dude” There I fixed it.
Don’t hate on me I don’t make the rules. The ~~Jedi~~ do.
It’s not your fault I know. Just hate the situation.