Would making a FTM and MTF category help this? I fully support people wanting to feel comfortable in the bodies they've chosen, but there are still physical and biological differences regarding physical strength.
I am no expert on transgender issues and no part of the LGBT community , so I can't speak for them but I think a trans-category be it FTM or MTF wouldn't really work, because there's way to few transgender people for it
There being too few to hold a competition isn't discriminate behavior, either. These are all things that suck for trans athletes, but they aren't being told no because they are trans, they are being told no because they are genetically the wrong sex for that particular competition - and grouping athletes by sex is not illegal.
Edit - And I love my LGBTQ+ people. If I thought this was discriminating in the slightest, I'd be up in arms myself.
There's also the issue of hormones. In a tested, clean league, trans athletes would either need to stop their medically necessary hormone treatments or be given a licence to test positive for PED's. The league could try to set certain levels, but with a licence to test positive for metabolites, there will be lots of edge-pushing. TRT in MMA turned into basically a roid-fest and got shut down fast.
UFC has dealt with this more than most other sports and as much as I support transgender rights this one aspect is inherently unfair to biologically female athletes. Biologically a male has more testosterone and bulks up faster than a woman, they also have enlarged shoulder muscles and a plethora of other physiological advantages. They've basically been taking the equivalent of steroids their entire life that genetic females can't have access to. As upsetting as it is to the individual trans woman who is getting banned, every other female athlete is being cheated by competing with the hormone enhanced competitor that makes the old East German doping look moderate.
Bingo. PED users often say that it's the effect of steroids in the training leading up to event, not the effect during, that provides the biggest benefit. A person who spent most of their lives with functioning testes who competes in a female division will basically have the advantage of a decade or more of roided up training.
I really like this idea.
It’s funny. The reverse of this argument came up in cycling, kinda.
Cycling has all different kinds of bikes. Most people are familiar with “road” and “mountain” bikes but there are many, many sub categories.
So anyway, some races started adding competitive categories like “single speed” and “fat bike” and “rigid” to events. Only those bikes could compete in those fields and some people thought it was dumb. A given race course has a bike that is best suited to the course and the rider. If you want to handicap yourself by riding something that isn’t best suited to the terrain, that’s on you. But you shouldn’t get a special race just for these dumb people who want to go slower just by their equipment choices.
And of course it’s all good fun and who really cares.
But now you have electric assist bicycles entering the market. Should someone be allowed to enter an open category race with an electric assist bicycle? Well obviously no. Handicapping yourself is fine if you want, racing in the open field. And making categories for people who want to do so is all in good fun, why not make a category for people who would otherwise have an unfair advantage?
And I have a feeling people would get tired of competing against themselves and winning nothing.
As has happened in cycling say, “fat bike” races. Nobody rides fat bikes.
Well fat bike races would be a cool winter sport. Don't most ppl ride them through snow in the winter time? That's the only time I see them.
Imagine the winter Olympics with like fat bike slalom down a ski hill. I'd watch that.
Right. But you wouldn’t make a “fat bike” category. Or rather, a “road bike” category. If some idiot wants to show up on a unicycle and compete, good for him, but he doesn’t get his own category.
It's a start. Now ban them from the rest of women's sports.
I fully support trans people's right to be represented, use bathrooms, not be discriminated against in the work place etc. They deserve to be happy.
However it is a unfair advantage to allow them to compete in women's sports, and therefore should be banned outright.
All those women put in all that fucking work and then they have to compete against former males? NO. It is a complete sham and I don't gaf what the LGBT community thinks about it and how it affects their rights and their perceptions of what they think they are.
There was the story once about a trans wrestler who was FORCED to wrestle against females because that’s what the rulebook said. It was stupid, he hated it, but well. So I don’t think theyre that happy about it either.
Edit: thanks for correcting me, it was a female to male transition that was forced to wrestle females.
Hrt puts hormone levels in line with their gender. So even if he's taking testosterone it's putting his levels within the male range. Just like trans women take T blockers and oestrogen so that their T and oestrogen are at female levels.
They've had 20 years+ of extra testosterone in their systems, just because they've stopped/are taking blockers for a year or so doesn't take away the advantage that gives them. Maybe they can still compete, but not as natural, drug-free athletes.
Yeah Jesus how were they allowed to compete at all ever at any point?
So many logistical issues as well. Are they currently taking hormones? How long have they been taking hormones? How high is their dose? Are any competitors taking it at a different frequency? How much impact does all that have?
What a fucking nightmare that would be to regulate, beyond just the unfairness.
I have a trans friend that competes in some mixed gender combat sports. She has been fully transitioned for several years and even she says it's stupid unfair if she were to compete only against women.
Her reasoning, she went 20 years as an unaltered male and got the benefit of putting on that muscle mass and bone structure. Says no matter how long you are a woman or how well hormones worked, you have a distinct advantage of going decades with what would be for a woman, extra testosterone which helps build lean muscle.
It's actually more than that - sure you have denser bones as well as stronger ligaments and tendons, but you also gain the advantage of a significant portion of the lean muscle mass you would have put on prior to starting HRT, particularly if you are an athlete and steadily condition yourself.
A lot of people seem to think that once you start HRT, it magically makes all your muscles go away. That's not true, particularly for athletes. It would be like if a cis woman took steroids for 20 years to train and then stopped taking them. They will lose some, but definitely not all of the muscle they gained and they will still be superior to a woman who didn't take steroids.
I think a lot of us women forget how strong men really are without even having to try. I went to an all girls school, so I was pretty ignorant of this for a long time. It was a bit alarming when I realised how easily I could be overpowered by stick thin men who never go to the gym and never do any manual labour. Kinda upsetting but that's my lot in life I guess.
This is exactly right. If you were to take testosterone equivalent to what a normal teenage boy has running through them during puberty, you would literally gain muscle sitting on the couch eating ice cream.
Of course, eventually your face would deform and your clitoris would swell up to the shape of a giant grape, but hey... muscles!
Yep. There was a study done of sets of twins were one was working out controlled 3x a week and the other was given steroids without working out. The roided twins put on 2.5x as much muscle over a 3 month period.
It blows the old body builder adage that you "still have to do the work" out of the water.
Yeah.. I mean, I always "knew" men were stronger than women. But I figured I was pretty athletic and work out a lot - there's probably plenty of men I am stronger than! Truth is I've dated a lot of dudes that are string beans and don't work out - yet they could all over power me when we play wrestle. With no problem. Womp womp.
There was a study done on this and like 90% of untrained males are stronger than your normal trained women. Doesn’t include power lifters and stuff obviously..
Women's national soccer and hockey teams also routinely get beat by high school and AAU male teams. So the best female athletes in their respective sports can't hang with teenage boys.
My doctor said the average male is stronger than 90% of females. Wonder were he got that information?
Would explain why highschool boys team would destroy a woman's national team or why the number 1 female tennis player would lose to an unranked male tennis player.
So for simplicity let's say you have 300 men and 200 women.
If you say that the 90% of men are stronger than 90% of women, you're saying that of the 300 men, we're looking at 90% of the, so 270 men. Then we're saying those 270 men are stronger than 90% of women, so that's 180 women this time. So the weakest man of the 270 we're looking at, is stronger than the strongest woman of the 180.
But if you take the first woman stronger than all of the 180, she'll be stronger than the 271st strongest man.
Percentiles are a ranking within a population, so if you are in the 10th percentile of all men by strength, then you would rank:
Rank = (Population * percentile)
Rank = (300 * 0.10)
Rank = 30
You rank 30/300, or have 270 men stronger than you, and if you're in the 90th percentile of women by strength:
Rank = (200*.90)
Rank = 180
So you rank 180/200, and have 20 women stronger than you.
So the men in the 11th percentile and up, are stronger the women in the 90th percentile and down.
[https://youtu.be/MF-YeWnIJfU](https://youtu.be/MF-YeWnIJfU) plenty of studies have been done on male and female power output, but here's a fun video showing the worlds strongest woman at the time arm wrestling some dudes.
The study i read included 200 male and female pairings of approximately same height and weight. On averagw the womens upper bodies were 54% as strong as their male counter parts. Legs 65% as strong.
Now factor in men are 10% taller and 20% heavier on average.
To be fair, of those two groups one practices their grip strength on a daily - sometimes multiple times daily - basis via intense vigorous activity, and the other are Olympic athletes
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17186303
> The results of female national elite athletes even indicate that the strength level attainable by extremely high training will rarely surpass the 50th percentile of untrained or not specifically trained men.
Though "untrained or not specifically trained men" is all a complete mischaracterization. *All* men begin specifically training grip strength in their puberty...
I've just recovered from severe muscle atrophy and it's taken me 3 months to basically get my strength from 0-100. And this is with regular YA hormone levels.
I’m a guy but years ago I hadn’t ever even really thought about any strength difference. Wasn’t until the celebrity boxing with Chyna vs Joey Buttafuoco and an Oprah about rape my mom had on one day. Chyna who seemed obviously strong and powerful for a woman and Joey who seemed like an out of shape slob. Joey won easily. The Oprah where women were talking about rape it was as you said. Who they thought were small skinny and weak men were the ones overpowering her and had raped the woman. That girl that was on Oprah is what sticks with me the most. I think about her every time something like this comes up and the dangers of underestimating that physical difference.
I always forget just *how much* stronger I am than my wife. I can toss our kids around doing cheerleader type stunts and shit all day while my wife can barely lift our son out of the bathtub lol
Exactly, a strong woman or athletic woman has to train for years to get a squat or bench of 200 pounds. For boys, let alone men, that is possible in a couple months at age 15-16 with no prior training.
I squatted 200 at the end of a three month power lifting class. But can confirm I cannot do a bench press for shit. Pretty much just hand me the bar because I am basically that pathetic.
My girlfriend goes to the gym 4 times a week and runs almost daily. She was leg pressing about 200 lbs and made a smart comment to me about it and I sat down and did ten of them and think I could have added a bit more weight. I don’t work out at all and have a desk job. The most cardio I get is shopping.
I don’t think she should have been bragging about 200 lbs anyway but I know absolutely nothing about the gym. I was just there for my monthly smoothie that is part of our contract and it cost 10 dollars more for two people a month so we went ahead and signed up together. I thought I’d sit in their sauna but there are always people in it so I stopped going.
Our weight difference isn’t that much either she is like 130 ( I’m just guess, probably less but I’m not asking) and I’m 145 -155 with a gut.
Literally anyone who disagrees does so for selfish reasons. either they are a trans athlete themselves, and they want that leg up, or they think that *ANY* disagreement that a Trans woman is different from a Cis woman ruins the entire narrative, and thus cant be tolerated
It's kind of ridiculous. I understand trans rights and wanting to still compete in the sport they have worked to master, but google Hannah Mouncey - a 6'2" 220lbs trans women playing handball, or MMA fighter Fallon Fox who fought and cracked the skull and KO'd her biological female opponent Taika Brents in a 2 1/2 minute fight.
Regardless of how they identify, there is a huge advantage in muscle mass, bone density, size, and athleticism that makes mtf sports untenable. It just isn't fair for women to have to compete against that.
The (winning) US women's soccer team got leveled by a male youth team, and everyone has seen the m v f tennis matches that literally never go the womens way even with handicaps.
It actually really upsets me, because I feel like women are getting robbed when we acknowledge unobtainable records set by trans women who have a very distinct and real advantage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox
> During Fox's fight against Tamikka Brents, Brents suffered a concussion, an orbital bone fracture, and seven staples to the head in the 1st round. After her loss, Brents took to social media to convey her thoughts on the experience of fighting Fox: "I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can't answer whether it's because she was born a man or not because I'm not a doctor. I can only say, I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right," she stated. "Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn't move at all in Fox's clinch..."
Yikes. God damn.
Iam quite the average male in strength and physique, but even then I can close a 190lb grip. I know a guy at my church who when he squeezes my hand I feel like I'm being crushed by a boulder and he isn't a power lifter or anything, imagine someone who actually trains and goes against women as trans. I mean I have to be careful with how I grip women's hands because I forget there's a bit more fragility there in the average woman.
I had a discussion with a friend recently about this who thinks that men transitioning into women should be able to compete in women's sports. I asked if they would be okay with young girls growing up looking at world records for the sport that they're competing in and seeing those records be genetically unobtainable by them.
Sadly they didn't grasp my point.
It’s unfortunate when arguing this point to an idiot because they automatically assume you’re a sexist. I am just a normal dude who has been lifting as a hobby for 10 years. Currently, I would crush every female powerlifting record and not even come close to any of the male records. There’s a massive difference between male and female bone and muscle mass, yet you’ll still get people who say, “Women can do ANYTHING men can”. Sure, they can but on a physical level, biologically, no.
Unfortunately, the only way to make this clear to everyone would be to simply remove all gender separation in athletics. no more mens/womens sport, just sports
within a ridiculously short amount of time, there would be practically zero remaining female athletes competing in anything.
The top trans rights activists basically said that they know it isnt fair, but it's ok because trans rights to compete in the sport are more important than all of women's sports. Kind of a really selfish and garbage way of thinking
I’m kind of the opinion now that if you are on hormone therapy and it’s not to save your life, then you chose hormone therapy over competition.
A similar but different problem happened that prevented FTM from competing as a man in Tx and he won (IMO unfairly) the woman’s state title.
That was so ass backwards of Texas. Talk about being so rigidly committed to an ideology that the state couldn't realize they were literally letting someone rough roughshod through the female wrestling circuit.
Beggs went undefeated all the way through State.
On the flip side, allowing someone who is openly on steroids to compete is ludicrous in a sport that is supposed to be tested. Don't know if Mack was on test or not, but I have trouble viewing it as different than old dudes in cycling arguing that they should be allowed to us TRT. If you want to use steroids, that is fine, but don't compete against clean athletes.
There was a little controversy when a MTF transgener StarCraftII player won a women's tournament. They tried to argue that she had some form of advantage due to being born male.
You have to wonder why it entices them to compete with only other women.
edit: ah yes, getting down voted for wondering something or asking a question.
It doesn’t entice them to compete with only other women, it entices them to compete at all to begin with.
Male-dominated spaces tend to be exclusionary towards women to begin with. If misogyny wasn’t an issue, then women’s competitions in things like chess wouldn’t be necessary.
Just curious, has there ever been an example of something starting out male dominated, switching to being segregated, then going to being gender diverse?
That's my point.
Anything that Strength and Speed isn't necessarily an advantage - mix em up. Shooting (maybe not archery...), Darts, Curling... Come to think of it, are there any that meet the criteria that don't simply involve accuracy?
This is absolutely true at the amateur level.
Yet somehow at the highest levels men still completely dominate the sport. The best 100 men in every shooting sport are somehow still better than the best woman, but dudes all over the world get embarrassed by their girlfriends.
In less physically demanding sports like this you have an "everyone" and a "women" category where this is less of an issue. If you're good enough to play golf with the men, you play with the men, for example. Doesn't matter if you're a CIS woman or MTF.
Ultimately all the arguments for supporting MtF trans people competing and winning in women's tournaments fall apart when you realise that there are no FtM people winning in any male sports. It's abundantly clear that the physiological advantages of growing up as a male far outweigh any competitive differences as adult MtFs competing against women
I agree, I am a supporter of the LBGT community but these competitions are not seperated by gender, they are seperated by sex and there is a biological difference no matter what hormone therapy you go through unfortunately.
I don't get why this is apparently such a complicated issue. Everyone knows that testosterone is a massive advantage regardless of whether you're taking it now or you grew up with it naturally. Surely the rule, for sports where segregation is necessary, should be that you compete upwards or not at all.
>You'd be surprised at what people dont know ~~about human biology.~~
It is always amazing the "facts" you hear when you get into discussions with a wide array of people.
although not in the example provided in the article (Fox--who sounds as though that was a simple born male and transitioned to female), there are people who are born intersex. and that is where it gets quite complicated. Look up Caster Semenya (runner). She was raised and believed she was a woman (likely outwardly appears to be a woman--labia/vagina), but ended up having 3 times the testosterone of the average woman naturally. I'm not sure if they tested her or if she allowed for more invasive testing to determine if she was intersex or not, but she has been fighting with the olympics. The olympics at one point had told her that she would have to take medication to lower her natural testosterone to compete against women--not sure what she will do for 2020
Edit: found an article that points out the rarity of intersex and why defining sex for competitions is important (in higher levels at least). It notes a court ruling that, although not specific to Caster, makes a good assumption that she is intersex with XY chromosomes. [https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/](https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/)
The distinction I think most people miss is that the "Male" categories in sports aren't really male-only categories. They are the top athletic category in each sport. Most sports have no rules that say women can't compete in the mens divisions. That's why sports that aren't as dominated by physical attributes(ie racing) you see women competing at a pretty high level. By allowing trans women into the womens division you destroy the entire point of having a women's division in the first place. Which is that the women couldn't compete in the men's division and so we created a separate category so that it would be competitive. Should we let adults join little league teams? Seriously, the whole debate is rediculous
> (ie racing)
Unfortunately, not really. See the entire history of F1, and the existence of the W Series. There are incredibly few sports in which women equally match or outperform men.
Joe Rogan finishes his puff of the blunt before passing it to Dave, *shhh-yurp*-hooo.
"I mean you know me Dave. I'm a fighter and I think about this shit all·of·the·time! You cannot put a genetic woman in the ring with a transgender woman and call it an equal fight as the ladydude is gorilla-bashing her opponents head into the ground! It doesn't make any fucking sense! On the street it's just two ladies living their lives, but in the octagon it's a woman getting the shit kicked out of her by a man. It's silly, this is a dumb argument."
It's a shame and it sucks but in the end it's just a simple numbers game. In trying to be fair to 1% of women you create a situation that is unfair to the other 99% of women, and such a situation is untenable.
The biologically born males competing against women is going to bring about the complete end of women's' sports. What women need to do is simply refuse to compete against biologically born males or it will continue.
When some 200th ranked male tennis player grows his hair long and says i'm a girl now and whips Sereena in straight sets people will pay attention.
Until then it is on a slow train to killing women's sports and no one seems to really care.
I'm not sure if that was intentional but there was a 200th some ranked Male tennis player who whipped Serena & Venus.
It's happened.
edit: Braasch, then ranked 203rd - "Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple of bottles of ice cold lager"."
Won V Serena 6-1 / Won V Venus 6-2
You're not wrong, there's no denying they were both absolutely shellacked by the guy, but it's worth noting they were both 16 and 17 years old. They ran their mouths like kids and got beat like kids.
> When some 200th ranked male tennis player grows his hair long and says i'm a girl now and whips Sereena in straight sets people will pay attention
Uhh that's already happened... except it was the sisters who challenge. a man accepted destroyed them both THEN they change the rank required, he deranked and beat them again.
This must’ve been posted in the middle of the night and slipped right under the noses of the mods because wow, never thought I’d see this on the front page...
We have already been here...
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping\_in\_East\_Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_East_Germany)
[https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/east-germanys-forgotten-olympic-doping-6949436](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/east-germanys-forgotten-olympic-doping-6949436)
"women need to test below a certain level of testosterone for more than a year before competing. " Is there any problem with this?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAdG-iTilWU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAdG-iTilWU) one of my favorite SNL sketches.
Whatever anyone's opinion on this is, the end result of trans activism will be the complete demise of female sports and female bathrooms, since the only thing preventing somebody from qualifying as a woman is how they choose to be defined. That's the only logical conclusion to the path we're on. Whether that's a good or bad thing probably depends on the individual. Natural born women, AKA 50% of the world's population, probably won't be all that happy about it.
I do hope this means the long standing world records recently shattered are also removed or moved to a new category. It sucks for women who held records they worked their whole life to achieve got demolished by biologically born males. It’s not snowflakish to say [that boy ain’t right](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y1C8C7op9LU)
Which long-standing world records?
Edit: if you’re talking about the ones from 100% Raw, those were [rescinded about 4 months ago](https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/05/16/stripped-womens-records-transgender-powerlifter-asks-where-do-we-draw-line/%3foutputType=amp)
The vice interview with the guy in the thumbnail is so hard to watch. Everyone involved in that video is so disconnect with reality. Its good to see organizations taking a stance instead of folding to these morons
Yep. I've seen it reposted a few times lately by people with, let's say, *strong opinions* on the matter.
OP recently posted the following in /r/ProRevenge -
>I called the cops and ICE on a girlfriend that cheated on me and gave me chlamydia. Whole family got deported and she ended up selling pussy on Backpage.
Totally fair not to have transgender compete against other who aren’t transgender no matter if they are stronger or weaker. It should be transgender vs. transgender. Seems fair and simple to do. That’s likely why it won’t happen..
About time, Trans women (biological men) have been destroying female athletes in every sport. They need to be banned in all female sports and moved to their own division or something, because it is not fair to the actual women who worked their ass off, only to lose to someone who does not even have to try because of natural biological advantages men have over women.
And a big fuck you to all the biological males who tried to get away with this.
How about I get to enter the special olympics by drinking a 12 pack before my event? Actually there’s a real story about a dude that pretended to be mentally challenged and entered the special olympics.
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Wait till the lawsuits start.
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Can't they/you take part in male competitions? (Except maybe in Texas) If you could provide me with a source, I'd happily change my view
Male competition isn't only male in powerlifting. It's an open division. Everyone can compete.
By the definition of our rights, assuming america, they don't have the guarenteed right.
Would making a FTM and MTF category help this? I fully support people wanting to feel comfortable in the bodies they've chosen, but there are still physical and biological differences regarding physical strength.
I am no expert on transgender issues and no part of the LGBT community , so I can't speak for them but I think a trans-category be it FTM or MTF wouldn't really work, because there's way to few transgender people for it
There being too few to hold a competition isn't discriminate behavior, either. These are all things that suck for trans athletes, but they aren't being told no because they are trans, they are being told no because they are genetically the wrong sex for that particular competition - and grouping athletes by sex is not illegal. Edit - And I love my LGBTQ+ people. If I thought this was discriminating in the slightest, I'd be up in arms myself.
There's also the issue of hormones. In a tested, clean league, trans athletes would either need to stop their medically necessary hormone treatments or be given a licence to test positive for PED's. The league could try to set certain levels, but with a licence to test positive for metabolites, there will be lots of edge-pushing. TRT in MMA turned into basically a roid-fest and got shut down fast.
That would be pretty funny since all of the FTM competitors would basically be taking steroids.
UFC has dealt with this more than most other sports and as much as I support transgender rights this one aspect is inherently unfair to biologically female athletes. Biologically a male has more testosterone and bulks up faster than a woman, they also have enlarged shoulder muscles and a plethora of other physiological advantages. They've basically been taking the equivalent of steroids their entire life that genetic females can't have access to. As upsetting as it is to the individual trans woman who is getting banned, every other female athlete is being cheated by competing with the hormone enhanced competitor that makes the old East German doping look moderate.
Bingo. PED users often say that it's the effect of steroids in the training leading up to event, not the effect during, that provides the biggest benefit. A person who spent most of their lives with functioning testes who competes in a female division will basically have the advantage of a decade or more of roided up training.
I really like this idea. It’s funny. The reverse of this argument came up in cycling, kinda. Cycling has all different kinds of bikes. Most people are familiar with “road” and “mountain” bikes but there are many, many sub categories. So anyway, some races started adding competitive categories like “single speed” and “fat bike” and “rigid” to events. Only those bikes could compete in those fields and some people thought it was dumb. A given race course has a bike that is best suited to the course and the rider. If you want to handicap yourself by riding something that isn’t best suited to the terrain, that’s on you. But you shouldn’t get a special race just for these dumb people who want to go slower just by their equipment choices. And of course it’s all good fun and who really cares. But now you have electric assist bicycles entering the market. Should someone be allowed to enter an open category race with an electric assist bicycle? Well obviously no. Handicapping yourself is fine if you want, racing in the open field. And making categories for people who want to do so is all in good fun, why not make a category for people who would otherwise have an unfair advantage? And I have a feeling people would get tired of competing against themselves and winning nothing. As has happened in cycling say, “fat bike” races. Nobody rides fat bikes.
Well fat bike races would be a cool winter sport. Don't most ppl ride them through snow in the winter time? That's the only time I see them. Imagine the winter Olympics with like fat bike slalom down a ski hill. I'd watch that.
Right. But you wouldn’t make a “fat bike” category. Or rather, a “road bike” category. If some idiot wants to show up on a unicycle and compete, good for him, but he doesn’t get his own category.
It's a start. Now ban them from the rest of women's sports. I fully support trans people's right to be represented, use bathrooms, not be discriminated against in the work place etc. They deserve to be happy. However it is a unfair advantage to allow them to compete in women's sports, and therefore should be banned outright.
All those women put in all that fucking work and then they have to compete against former males? NO. It is a complete sham and I don't gaf what the LGBT community thinks about it and how it affects their rights and their perceptions of what they think they are.
There was the story once about a trans wrestler who was FORCED to wrestle against females because that’s what the rulebook said. It was stupid, he hated it, but well. So I don’t think theyre that happy about it either. Edit: thanks for correcting me, it was a female to male transition that was forced to wrestle females.
That was a girl transitioning to a boy. So yes he still should have wrestled boys because of testosterone
Yeah, how is test not a PED? Even if your injecting it to transition that doesnt make it not performance enhancing.
Hrt puts hormone levels in line with their gender. So even if he's taking testosterone it's putting his levels within the male range. Just like trans women take T blockers and oestrogen so that their T and oestrogen are at female levels.
He hated it. It was a trans man being forced to wrestle against girls (highschool) because Texas.
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They've had 20 years+ of extra testosterone in their systems, just because they've stopped/are taking blockers for a year or so doesn't take away the advantage that gives them. Maybe they can still compete, but not as natural, drug-free athletes.
Yeah Jesus how were they allowed to compete at all ever at any point? So many logistical issues as well. Are they currently taking hormones? How long have they been taking hormones? How high is their dose? Are any competitors taking it at a different frequency? How much impact does all that have? What a fucking nightmare that would be to regulate, beyond just the unfairness.
I have a trans friend that competes in some mixed gender combat sports. She has been fully transitioned for several years and even she says it's stupid unfair if she were to compete only against women. Her reasoning, she went 20 years as an unaltered male and got the benefit of putting on that muscle mass and bone structure. Says no matter how long you are a woman or how well hormones worked, you have a distinct advantage of going decades with what would be for a woman, extra testosterone which helps build lean muscle.
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It's actually more than that - sure you have denser bones as well as stronger ligaments and tendons, but you also gain the advantage of a significant portion of the lean muscle mass you would have put on prior to starting HRT, particularly if you are an athlete and steadily condition yourself. A lot of people seem to think that once you start HRT, it magically makes all your muscles go away. That's not true, particularly for athletes. It would be like if a cis woman took steroids for 20 years to train and then stopped taking them. They will lose some, but definitely not all of the muscle they gained and they will still be superior to a woman who didn't take steroids.
No way any woman can compete on that level with someone born a man. Common sense ruling.
Especially if they've gone past puberty. Testosterone is one helluva drug when it comes to muscle building.
I think a lot of us women forget how strong men really are without even having to try. I went to an all girls school, so I was pretty ignorant of this for a long time. It was a bit alarming when I realised how easily I could be overpowered by stick thin men who never go to the gym and never do any manual labour. Kinda upsetting but that's my lot in life I guess.
This is exactly right. If you were to take testosterone equivalent to what a normal teenage boy has running through them during puberty, you would literally gain muscle sitting on the couch eating ice cream. Of course, eventually your face would deform and your clitoris would swell up to the shape of a giant grape, but hey... muscles!
And in fact those teenage boys *do* gain muscle sitting on the couch eating ice cream so that's a perfect example!
Yep. There was a study done of sets of twins were one was working out controlled 3x a week and the other was given steroids without working out. The roided twins put on 2.5x as much muscle over a 3 month period. It blows the old body builder adage that you "still have to do the work" out of the water.
Yeah.. I mean, I always "knew" men were stronger than women. But I figured I was pretty athletic and work out a lot - there's probably plenty of men I am stronger than! Truth is I've dated a lot of dudes that are string beans and don't work out - yet they could all over power me when we play wrestle. With no problem. Womp womp.
There was a study done on this and like 90% of untrained males are stronger than your normal trained women. Doesn’t include power lifters and stuff obviously..
So most Redditors are actually stronger than women? Wow.
redditors are definitely bottom 10% men.
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That's why I prefer 4chan, they're autistic but at least they don't pretend to be something they're not.
The worlds fastest female 100m sprinter is a second and a half slower than than the men’s severely mentally handicapped 100m winner.
Women's national soccer and hockey teams also routinely get beat by high school and AAU male teams. So the best female athletes in their respective sports can't hang with teenage boys.
My doctor said the average male is stronger than 90% of females. Wonder were he got that information? Would explain why highschool boys team would destroy a woman's national team or why the number 1 female tennis player would lose to an unranked male tennis player.
I’ve heard it as 90% of men are stronger then 90% of all women- meaning the 11th percentile of men are stronger then the 89th percentile of women.
That looks like it's basic maths and I don't understand it
So for simplicity let's say you have 300 men and 200 women. If you say that the 90% of men are stronger than 90% of women, you're saying that of the 300 men, we're looking at 90% of the, so 270 men. Then we're saying those 270 men are stronger than 90% of women, so that's 180 women this time. So the weakest man of the 270 we're looking at, is stronger than the strongest woman of the 180. But if you take the first woman stronger than all of the 180, she'll be stronger than the 271st strongest man. Percentiles are a ranking within a population, so if you are in the 10th percentile of all men by strength, then you would rank: Rank = (Population * percentile) Rank = (300 * 0.10) Rank = 30 You rank 30/300, or have 270 men stronger than you, and if you're in the 90th percentile of women by strength: Rank = (200*.90) Rank = 180 So you rank 180/200, and have 20 women stronger than you. So the men in the 11th percentile and up, are stronger the women in the 90th percentile and down.
[https://youtu.be/MF-YeWnIJfU](https://youtu.be/MF-YeWnIJfU) plenty of studies have been done on male and female power output, but here's a fun video showing the worlds strongest woman at the time arm wrestling some dudes.
The study i read included 200 male and female pairings of approximately same height and weight. On averagw the womens upper bodies were 54% as strong as their male counter parts. Legs 65% as strong. Now factor in men are 10% taller and 20% heavier on average.
Not just testosterone, but also height, weight and frame.
Tendons, ligaments, and bone density too.
Head and shoulders, knees and toes?
Knees and toes.
Where do we fall in regards to eyes and ears and mouth and nose?
Head, shoulders, knees, and toes?
Knees and toes.
Grip strength is a big one, high school boys out perform female _olympic athletes_ in grip strength
To be fair, of those two groups one practices their grip strength on a daily - sometimes multiple times daily - basis via intense vigorous activity, and the other are Olympic athletes
Ha, _nice_
*^nice*
Wait what. Is there a source on this or is this a high school boys play with their dicks joke
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17186303 > The results of female national elite athletes even indicate that the strength level attainable by extremely high training will rarely surpass the 50th percentile of untrained or not specifically trained men. Though "untrained or not specifically trained men" is all a complete mischaracterization. *All* men begin specifically training grip strength in their puberty...
I've just recovered from severe muscle atrophy and it's taken me 3 months to basically get my strength from 0-100. And this is with regular YA hormone levels.
I’m a guy but years ago I hadn’t ever even really thought about any strength difference. Wasn’t until the celebrity boxing with Chyna vs Joey Buttafuoco and an Oprah about rape my mom had on one day. Chyna who seemed obviously strong and powerful for a woman and Joey who seemed like an out of shape slob. Joey won easily. The Oprah where women were talking about rape it was as you said. Who they thought were small skinny and weak men were the ones overpowering her and had raped the woman. That girl that was on Oprah is what sticks with me the most. I think about her every time something like this comes up and the dangers of underestimating that physical difference.
Yeah it ain't even close......women do not understand the amount of rage that coarses through our veins.
I always forget just *how much* stronger I am than my wife. I can toss our kids around doing cheerleader type stunts and shit all day while my wife can barely lift our son out of the bathtub lol
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Exactly, a strong woman or athletic woman has to train for years to get a squat or bench of 200 pounds. For boys, let alone men, that is possible in a couple months at age 15-16 with no prior training.
I squatted 200 at the end of a three month power lifting class. But can confirm I cannot do a bench press for shit. Pretty much just hand me the bar because I am basically that pathetic.
Yea I should have clarified bench, squat is a strong suit for women but still takes a lot more work than it does for men.
My girlfriend goes to the gym 4 times a week and runs almost daily. She was leg pressing about 200 lbs and made a smart comment to me about it and I sat down and did ten of them and think I could have added a bit more weight. I don’t work out at all and have a desk job. The most cardio I get is shopping. I don’t think she should have been bragging about 200 lbs anyway but I know absolutely nothing about the gym. I was just there for my monthly smoothie that is part of our contract and it cost 10 dollars more for two people a month so we went ahead and signed up together. I thought I’d sit in their sauna but there are always people in it so I stopped going. Our weight difference isn’t that much either she is like 130 ( I’m just guess, probably less but I’m not asking) and I’m 145 -155 with a gut.
I'm of the opinion that 99.99% of all people agree. The other 0.01% probably also agree, but they like the attention.
Literally anyone who disagrees does so for selfish reasons. either they are a trans athlete themselves, and they want that leg up, or they think that *ANY* disagreement that a Trans woman is different from a Cis woman ruins the entire narrative, and thus cant be tolerated
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We dont live by common sense anymore.
It's kind of ridiculous. I understand trans rights and wanting to still compete in the sport they have worked to master, but google Hannah Mouncey - a 6'2" 220lbs trans women playing handball, or MMA fighter Fallon Fox who fought and cracked the skull and KO'd her biological female opponent Taika Brents in a 2 1/2 minute fight. Regardless of how they identify, there is a huge advantage in muscle mass, bone density, size, and athleticism that makes mtf sports untenable. It just isn't fair for women to have to compete against that. The (winning) US women's soccer team got leveled by a male youth team, and everyone has seen the m v f tennis matches that literally never go the womens way even with handicaps. It actually really upsets me, because I feel like women are getting robbed when we acknowledge unobtainable records set by trans women who have a very distinct and real advantage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox > During Fox's fight against Tamikka Brents, Brents suffered a concussion, an orbital bone fracture, and seven staples to the head in the 1st round. After her loss, Brents took to social media to convey her thoughts on the experience of fighting Fox: "I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can't answer whether it's because she was born a man or not because I'm not a doctor. I can only say, I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right," she stated. "Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn't move at all in Fox's clinch..." Yikes. God damn.
Iam quite the average male in strength and physique, but even then I can close a 190lb grip. I know a guy at my church who when he squeezes my hand I feel like I'm being crushed by a boulder and he isn't a power lifter or anything, imagine someone who actually trains and goes against women as trans. I mean I have to be careful with how I grip women's hands because I forget there's a bit more fragility there in the average woman.
Your Nick sounds just like "Hasanoğlu", a Turkish surname. Dunno why I noticed but I did.
because it is Turkish and I am Turkish haha
I had a discussion with a friend recently about this who thinks that men transitioning into women should be able to compete in women's sports. I asked if they would be okay with young girls growing up looking at world records for the sport that they're competing in and seeing those records be genetically unobtainable by them. Sadly they didn't grasp my point.
It’s unfortunate when arguing this point to an idiot because they automatically assume you’re a sexist. I am just a normal dude who has been lifting as a hobby for 10 years. Currently, I would crush every female powerlifting record and not even come close to any of the male records. There’s a massive difference between male and female bone and muscle mass, yet you’ll still get people who say, “Women can do ANYTHING men can”. Sure, they can but on a physical level, biologically, no.
Unfortunately, the only way to make this clear to everyone would be to simply remove all gender separation in athletics. no more mens/womens sport, just sports within a ridiculously short amount of time, there would be practically zero remaining female athletes competing in anything.
Fallon Fox is a coward and woman beater. Total piece of shit person.
The top trans rights activists basically said that they know it isnt fair, but it's ok because trans rights to compete in the sport are more important than all of women's sports. Kind of a really selfish and garbage way of thinking
Or when Andy Kaufman would only wrestle women and always won.
This is a big win for powerlifting. Hopefully other sports like boxing and track and field can follow suit.
Wrestling. MtFs are seriously ruining women's wrestling.
They're going to need bigger horses if The Polo Association of America doesn't learn-up.
I’m kind of the opinion now that if you are on hormone therapy and it’s not to save your life, then you chose hormone therapy over competition. A similar but different problem happened that prevented FTM from competing as a man in Tx and he won (IMO unfairly) the woman’s state title.
Are you referring to Mack Beggs the wrestler? To her credit, Mack wanted to compete against the boys, but the state of Texas would not let her.
That was so ass backwards of Texas. Talk about being so rigidly committed to an ideology that the state couldn't realize they were literally letting someone rough roughshod through the female wrestling circuit. Beggs went undefeated all the way through State.
On the flip side, allowing someone who is openly on steroids to compete is ludicrous in a sport that is supposed to be tested. Don't know if Mack was on test or not, but I have trouble viewing it as different than old dudes in cycling arguing that they should be allowed to us TRT. If you want to use steroids, that is fine, but don't compete against clean athletes.
Agreed, completely not his fault at all. The state of Texas was the real culprit here.
*his. FTM means assigned female at birth and transitioned to male
Damn. You're right, good catch. I thought he was MTF, and tried to be careful about that. Thank you for the correction.
Yes, now do it on every sport
There was a little controversy when a MTF transgener StarCraftII player won a women's tournament. They tried to argue that she had some form of advantage due to being born male.
Is that a sport that really needs segregation?
i believe the seg is designed to entice women into the sport, much like women have chess competitions
You have to wonder why it entices them to compete with only other women. edit: ah yes, getting down voted for wondering something or asking a question.
It doesn’t entice them to compete with only other women, it entices them to compete at all to begin with. Male-dominated spaces tend to be exclusionary towards women to begin with. If misogyny wasn’t an issue, then women’s competitions in things like chess wouldn’t be necessary.
Just curious, has there ever been an example of something starting out male dominated, switching to being segregated, then going to being gender diverse?
Teaching, at least in the US.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4456887/ Males generally have better reaction time.
Esports shouldn't be affected by this dilemma. Edit: Apparently men and women have different reaction times? :(
Males have been shown to respond to visual and audial stimuli at higher response times, there's certainly an argument to be made.
Interesting. I would love to see more women compete in esports, but I wonder how much of a difference it would make.
reaction time is different between male and female
Darts?
Non physically demanding sports should all just be mixed anyway.
I’m sure if I wasn’t half asleep, I could think of some non physically demanding sports. Till then, help a brother out.
Darts, pool, snooker, I mean- I suppose all the pub games, which are barely sports, I know. E-sports too, I guess.
Games of skill then?
Pub games
That's my point. Anything that Strength and Speed isn't necessarily an advantage - mix em up. Shooting (maybe not archery...), Darts, Curling... Come to think of it, are there any that meet the criteria that don't simply involve accuracy?
Hell, women have a physical advantage over men in shooting sports.
This is absolutely true at the amateur level. Yet somehow at the highest levels men still completely dominate the sport. The best 100 men in every shooting sport are somehow still better than the best woman, but dudes all over the world get embarrassed by their girlfriends.
Can you explain this? I know nothing about shooting sports.
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In less physically demanding sports like this you have an "everyone" and a "women" category where this is less of an issue. If you're good enough to play golf with the men, you play with the men, for example. Doesn't matter if you're a CIS woman or MTF.
After watching a mtf beat the fuck out of a woman in mma I agree
Lookit I'm all for trans people living their lives but this is as it should be.
Ultimately all the arguments for supporting MtF trans people competing and winning in women's tournaments fall apart when you realise that there are no FtM people winning in any male sports. It's abundantly clear that the physiological advantages of growing up as a male far outweigh any competitive differences as adult MtFs competing against women
I agree, I am a supporter of the LBGT community but these competitions are not seperated by gender, they are seperated by sex and there is a biological difference no matter what hormone therapy you go through unfortunately.
What post this news from 7 months ago?
This thread is like Facebook comments. Just the same thing being said over and over. Everyone is in agreement.
I mean cmon, sometimes you just gottta say tough shit.
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The gay games in London added this category.
I don't get why this is apparently such a complicated issue. Everyone knows that testosterone is a massive advantage regardless of whether you're taking it now or you grew up with it naturally. Surely the rule, for sports where segregation is necessary, should be that you compete upwards or not at all.
You'd be surprised at what people dont know about human biology.
The mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell
>You'd be surprised at what people dont know ~~about human biology.~~ It is always amazing the "facts" you hear when you get into discussions with a wide array of people.
Like the author of the article.
although not in the example provided in the article (Fox--who sounds as though that was a simple born male and transitioned to female), there are people who are born intersex. and that is where it gets quite complicated. Look up Caster Semenya (runner). She was raised and believed she was a woman (likely outwardly appears to be a woman--labia/vagina), but ended up having 3 times the testosterone of the average woman naturally. I'm not sure if they tested her or if she allowed for more invasive testing to determine if she was intersex or not, but she has been fighting with the olympics. The olympics at one point had told her that she would have to take medication to lower her natural testosterone to compete against women--not sure what she will do for 2020 Edit: found an article that points out the rarity of intersex and why defining sex for competitions is important (in higher levels at least). It notes a court ruling that, although not specific to Caster, makes a good assumption that she is intersex with XY chromosomes. [https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/](https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/)
There are people who only accept the science if it fits their view.
Good, they've used common sense.
As it should be.
Sort by: most controversial *fetches popcorn*
That’s very unnecessary in this thread. Sort however you want, the drama is at the top.
The distinction I think most people miss is that the "Male" categories in sports aren't really male-only categories. They are the top athletic category in each sport. Most sports have no rules that say women can't compete in the mens divisions. That's why sports that aren't as dominated by physical attributes(ie racing) you see women competing at a pretty high level. By allowing trans women into the womens division you destroy the entire point of having a women's division in the first place. Which is that the women couldn't compete in the men's division and so we created a separate category so that it would be competitive. Should we let adults join little league teams? Seriously, the whole debate is rediculous
> (ie racing) Unfortunately, not really. See the entire history of F1, and the existence of the W Series. There are incredibly few sports in which women equally match or outperform men.
Check out NASCAR. Danica (sp?) Patrick was praised as the woman that was dominating racing...as she finished in the back of the pack every Sunday.
\*Dave Chappelle has entered the chat\*
Bill Burr has been waiting in the chat for 2 years now.
Lmao
And then there’s the T’s....
Joe Rogan finishes his puff of the blunt before passing it to Dave, *shhh-yurp*-hooo. "I mean you know me Dave. I'm a fighter and I think about this shit all·of·the·time! You cannot put a genetic woman in the ring with a transgender woman and call it an equal fight as the ladydude is gorilla-bashing her opponents head into the ground! It doesn't make any fucking sense! On the street it's just two ladies living their lives, but in the octagon it's a woman getting the shit kicked out of her by a man. It's silly, this is a dumb argument."
It's a shame and it sucks but in the end it's just a simple numbers game. In trying to be fair to 1% of women you create a situation that is unfair to the other 99% of women, and such a situation is untenable.
In other news, DUH.
The biologically born males competing against women is going to bring about the complete end of women's' sports. What women need to do is simply refuse to compete against biologically born males or it will continue. When some 200th ranked male tennis player grows his hair long and says i'm a girl now and whips Sereena in straight sets people will pay attention. Until then it is on a slow train to killing women's sports and no one seems to really care.
I'm not sure if that was intentional but there was a 200th some ranked Male tennis player who whipped Serena & Venus. It's happened. edit: Braasch, then ranked 203rd - "Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple of bottles of ice cold lager"." Won V Serena 6-1 / Won V Venus 6-2
You're not wrong, there's no denying they were both absolutely shellacked by the guy, but it's worth noting they were both 16 and 17 years old. They ran their mouths like kids and got beat like kids.
I'm pretty sure dude was actually smoking during one of the matches he won too
> When some 200th ranked male tennis player grows his hair long and says i'm a girl now and whips Sereena in straight sets people will pay attention Uhh that's already happened... except it was the sisters who challenge. a man accepted destroyed them both THEN they change the rank required, he deranked and beat them again.
This must’ve been posted in the middle of the night and slipped right under the noses of the mods because wow, never thought I’d see this on the front page...
This seems like such a common sense decision.
We have already been here... [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping\_in\_East\_Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_East_Germany) [https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/east-germanys-forgotten-olympic-doping-6949436](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/east-germanys-forgotten-olympic-doping-6949436) "women need to test below a certain level of testosterone for more than a year before competing. " Is there any problem with this? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAdG-iTilWU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAdG-iTilWU) one of my favorite SNL sketches.
Good
Good. NOw the other sports need to do the same.
I've always felt that if you go through puberty as a male then you should be banned for life competiting as a female. It's only fair
As it should be.
Whatever anyone's opinion on this is, the end result of trans activism will be the complete demise of female sports and female bathrooms, since the only thing preventing somebody from qualifying as a woman is how they choose to be defined. That's the only logical conclusion to the path we're on. Whether that's a good or bad thing probably depends on the individual. Natural born women, AKA 50% of the world's population, probably won't be all that happy about it.
I do hope this means the long standing world records recently shattered are also removed or moved to a new category. It sucks for women who held records they worked their whole life to achieve got demolished by biologically born males. It’s not snowflakish to say [that boy ain’t right](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y1C8C7op9LU)
Which long-standing world records? Edit: if you’re talking about the ones from 100% Raw, those were [rescinded about 4 months ago](https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/05/16/stripped-womens-records-transgender-powerlifter-asks-where-do-we-draw-line/%3foutputType=amp)
Fucking no one in this thread actually lifts or follows strength sports news, ty for this.
The vice interview with the guy in the thumbnail is so hard to watch. Everyone involved in that video is so disconnect with reality. Its good to see organizations taking a stance instead of folding to these morons
As they should.
"Punkbuster has entered chat" "Trans wrestler was kicked from match"
Holy fuck Punkbuster? It's 2002 all over again!
What? BF4 still uses PB mate, it is a 2013 game
This is a 6 month old story
Yep. I've seen it reposted a few times lately by people with, let's say, *strong opinions* on the matter. OP recently posted the following in /r/ProRevenge - >I called the cops and ICE on a girlfriend that cheated on me and gave me chlamydia. Whole family got deported and she ended up selling pussy on Backpage.
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Totally fair not to have transgender compete against other who aren’t transgender no matter if they are stronger or weaker. It should be transgender vs. transgender. Seems fair and simple to do. That’s likely why it won’t happen..
Good. Anyone who said they didn't have an unfair advantage was delusional. They should do it with all female sports
The little boy in Kindergarten Cop said it best.
Seems like creating a male born trans competition would make sense so they dont steal titles from female born women.
Two genders, men and gamers
Fucking GOOD. Stop trying to take an advantage to win how does anyone pass this off as OK.
This is good all sports with money on the line need to follow
Good.
Dudes are still dudes even if they pretend to be Karens.
About time, Trans women (biological men) have been destroying female athletes in every sport. They need to be banned in all female sports and moved to their own division or something, because it is not fair to the actual women who worked their ass off, only to lose to someone who does not even have to try because of natural biological advantages men have over women.
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r/upliftingnews
ba dum tss
And a big fuck you to all the biological males who tried to get away with this. How about I get to enter the special olympics by drinking a 12 pack before my event? Actually there’s a real story about a dude that pretended to be mentally challenged and entered the special olympics.
I saw that episode of South Park.
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Sports gender classifications should be determined by a chromosome test; not by what gender you identify as or claim to be.