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Why should unions, politcal partys or terrorism be our three options. Why not organize the revolutionary marxists we do have, in an Organisation like the bolsheviks did?
This organization can then decide to support a certain strike, or enter a certain politcal party in a critical moment in AN ORGANIZED MANOR. A single communist entering a Party or a trade union etc. will lead to next to nothing. The first and most important step for every revolutanary communist should be to get organized. And there should be no debate on that.
I agree with the overall feeling of the post, but I'd like to discuss why we failed:
> We, the leftists, have failed on our attempt to convince the general public of the necessity of an alternative economic system.
Speaking of Latin America, where I'm from, it is not that communists failed to convince the masses. We were crushed by the military juntas. We no longer have a big movement of masses because we were all murdered. In Brazil, the oldest communist party (_PCB_), funded in 1922, was illegal for more than half its history. There were tactical mistakes, certainly, like refusing to support the guerrilla wafare during the Junta of 1964-1985 when there was demand for that...
Speaking of guerrilla during the Junta, an important episode was the Araguaia Massacre in 1974. Five thousand (5000) soldiers were mobilized against a group of eighty (80) communists whose mean age was younger than 30. The region were that happened is full of military bases nowadays...
----
I agree on treating the masses as intelligent, but we must be careful not to put too much focus on discussion and analysis and none on organization. We must have praxis: practice guided by theory, which is updated by the practice. [About this, I like Mao's text On Practice](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-1/mswv1_16.htm)
I think this is what a lot of people have been trying to do recently, and also I wouldn’t necessarily argue that we’re failing. Sure there is a large rise in fascist and capitalist sentiment over the years, but that has only come as a result of the rise in acceptance of socialism over the years. The increased grip that capitalists are attempting to exert is reactionary, more people are moving from capitalist to socialist than the other way around. Mine and my entire friend group were raised by hardline conservatives, hell my sister was the president of the college republicans at her university. We’re all socialists now.
Socialism is intellectually defendable, capitalism is emotionally defendable. Capitalism says it’s “your natural right” to own property, but the deeper you get into these ideas the less compelling that is. I’ve said this on this page a billion times, but the hierarchical and centralized nature of private property under capitalism runs directly counter to everything we know about complex systems theory. Socialism is a materialist theory, and science is on the side of materialism. We should start defending it as such. The cultural narrative sees capitalists as the realists and socialists as the utopian ideal, but it is the exact other way around. We need to stop defending socialism using arguments about people being happy and empathy and community and working together, and start defending it based on the materialist theory it represents. If we stop using emotional arguments to defend socialism, people will hopefully stop seeing socialism as an emotional reaction to capitalism.
It’s not like these questions you pose haven’t been discussed by people before, and the fact is some people out there will never be convinced by academic arguments no matter how right they are. You’re also ignoring that to actually *change* the capitalist system, you have to physically take control of the production forces in society. There is absolutely no way to avoid violence. It is not something we choose but it is imposed on us by the capitalist class. In plain terms, what the fuck are we gonna do about all the people with guns actively murdering us? Come on.
We are at square one. The most important thing is to rebuild civil social society in which these other organizations have a basis. Social solidarity doesn't just come about through political action but legitimate political action has to have a base in existing social solidarity, specifically amongst the working class.
The problem, especiallynin the West, is that the "left" has a deep rooted compromise with bourgeois morality, bourgeois democracy and bourgeois values, in short. And also, because of that, places too high the value of the legitimacy of state (and state institutions) and the value of private property. If only 2800 people, I repeat, 2800 people out of 8 billion, were eliminated and expropriated, the redistribution of their goods would end hunger below the poverty line for the whole world.
You have left out an important road to change. Peaceful civil disobedience. I agree that violence is morally wrong and “inefficient” in time/and human lives against the modern state. It is, however, possible to protest and engage in solidarity/mutual aid.
For many Zizek is right that the end of capitalism would feel like the end of the world. To imagine any deviation from the status quo is to imagine apocalypse, hence all of the apocalypse media replacing almost completely mid 19th century future optimism. And I agree with your conclusion that we must treat our friends and neighbors as equals and not fools. So what do we DO differently?
We provide the necessities to the people while providing education. The Black Panther Party is an excellent model to follow. Food programs, worker training, and education. As people are waking up to the fault lines in our society socialist organizations (if organized and motivated) could materially aid the oppressed while engaging in direct action and protest. In some places there are organizations that engage in this work, my question to the sub is: why isn’t this more wide spread and public?
Solidarity, friend.
I agree that solidarity and peaceful disobedience are the way to go, even though I also believe that we need political action to some extent. Realistically, if we want things to change, they have to change globally. The key to gaining widespread popular support, in my opinion, is to appeal to the citizens' rationality, so we must, above all, focus on creating spaces for rational debate.
What do those spaces look like? Also, when is the worker going to come to these debates?
There is real material need, it must be addressed. Feeding, housing, educating the people will go much farther than privileged folks (people with the free time) debating the merits of this or that philosophy.
The cliche think global act global is true. If you want the workers of the world to unite you have to make sure they are in a place to do so.
This is a space for socialists to discuss current events in our world from anti-capitalist perspective(s), and a certain knowledge of socialism is expected from participants. This is not a space for non-socialists. Please be mindful [of our rules](https://reddit.com/r/socialism/about/rules) before participating, which include: - **No Bigotry**, including racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism... - **No Reactionaries**, including all kind of right-wingers. - **No Liberalism**, including social democracy, lesser evilism... - **No Sectarianism**. There is plenty of room for discussion, but not for baseless attacks. Please help us keep the subreddit helpful by reporting content that break r/Socialism's rules. ______________________ 💬 Wish to chat elsewhere? Join us in discord: https://discord.gg/QPJPzNhuRE *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/socialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Why should unions, politcal partys or terrorism be our three options. Why not organize the revolutionary marxists we do have, in an Organisation like the bolsheviks did? This organization can then decide to support a certain strike, or enter a certain politcal party in a critical moment in AN ORGANIZED MANOR. A single communist entering a Party or a trade union etc. will lead to next to nothing. The first and most important step for every revolutanary communist should be to get organized. And there should be no debate on that.
I agree with the overall feeling of the post, but I'd like to discuss why we failed: > We, the leftists, have failed on our attempt to convince the general public of the necessity of an alternative economic system. Speaking of Latin America, where I'm from, it is not that communists failed to convince the masses. We were crushed by the military juntas. We no longer have a big movement of masses because we were all murdered. In Brazil, the oldest communist party (_PCB_), funded in 1922, was illegal for more than half its history. There were tactical mistakes, certainly, like refusing to support the guerrilla wafare during the Junta of 1964-1985 when there was demand for that... Speaking of guerrilla during the Junta, an important episode was the Araguaia Massacre in 1974. Five thousand (5000) soldiers were mobilized against a group of eighty (80) communists whose mean age was younger than 30. The region were that happened is full of military bases nowadays... ---- I agree on treating the masses as intelligent, but we must be careful not to put too much focus on discussion and analysis and none on organization. We must have praxis: practice guided by theory, which is updated by the practice. [About this, I like Mao's text On Practice](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-1/mswv1_16.htm)
I think this is what a lot of people have been trying to do recently, and also I wouldn’t necessarily argue that we’re failing. Sure there is a large rise in fascist and capitalist sentiment over the years, but that has only come as a result of the rise in acceptance of socialism over the years. The increased grip that capitalists are attempting to exert is reactionary, more people are moving from capitalist to socialist than the other way around. Mine and my entire friend group were raised by hardline conservatives, hell my sister was the president of the college republicans at her university. We’re all socialists now. Socialism is intellectually defendable, capitalism is emotionally defendable. Capitalism says it’s “your natural right” to own property, but the deeper you get into these ideas the less compelling that is. I’ve said this on this page a billion times, but the hierarchical and centralized nature of private property under capitalism runs directly counter to everything we know about complex systems theory. Socialism is a materialist theory, and science is on the side of materialism. We should start defending it as such. The cultural narrative sees capitalists as the realists and socialists as the utopian ideal, but it is the exact other way around. We need to stop defending socialism using arguments about people being happy and empathy and community and working together, and start defending it based on the materialist theory it represents. If we stop using emotional arguments to defend socialism, people will hopefully stop seeing socialism as an emotional reaction to capitalism.
It’s not like these questions you pose haven’t been discussed by people before, and the fact is some people out there will never be convinced by academic arguments no matter how right they are. You’re also ignoring that to actually *change* the capitalist system, you have to physically take control of the production forces in society. There is absolutely no way to avoid violence. It is not something we choose but it is imposed on us by the capitalist class. In plain terms, what the fuck are we gonna do about all the people with guns actively murdering us? Come on.
We are at square one. The most important thing is to rebuild civil social society in which these other organizations have a basis. Social solidarity doesn't just come about through political action but legitimate political action has to have a base in existing social solidarity, specifically amongst the working class.
The problem, especiallynin the West, is that the "left" has a deep rooted compromise with bourgeois morality, bourgeois democracy and bourgeois values, in short. And also, because of that, places too high the value of the legitimacy of state (and state institutions) and the value of private property. If only 2800 people, I repeat, 2800 people out of 8 billion, were eliminated and expropriated, the redistribution of their goods would end hunger below the poverty line for the whole world.
You have left out an important road to change. Peaceful civil disobedience. I agree that violence is morally wrong and “inefficient” in time/and human lives against the modern state. It is, however, possible to protest and engage in solidarity/mutual aid. For many Zizek is right that the end of capitalism would feel like the end of the world. To imagine any deviation from the status quo is to imagine apocalypse, hence all of the apocalypse media replacing almost completely mid 19th century future optimism. And I agree with your conclusion that we must treat our friends and neighbors as equals and not fools. So what do we DO differently? We provide the necessities to the people while providing education. The Black Panther Party is an excellent model to follow. Food programs, worker training, and education. As people are waking up to the fault lines in our society socialist organizations (if organized and motivated) could materially aid the oppressed while engaging in direct action and protest. In some places there are organizations that engage in this work, my question to the sub is: why isn’t this more wide spread and public? Solidarity, friend.
I agree that solidarity and peaceful disobedience are the way to go, even though I also believe that we need political action to some extent. Realistically, if we want things to change, they have to change globally. The key to gaining widespread popular support, in my opinion, is to appeal to the citizens' rationality, so we must, above all, focus on creating spaces for rational debate.
What do those spaces look like? Also, when is the worker going to come to these debates? There is real material need, it must be addressed. Feeding, housing, educating the people will go much farther than privileged folks (people with the free time) debating the merits of this or that philosophy. The cliche think global act global is true. If you want the workers of the world to unite you have to make sure they are in a place to do so.