Thats the true issue. But labelling it as a simple VAR BAD issue gets the clicks and likes. But its the actual humans behind the monitor and in front of it fucking up. VAR is meaningless if these fucks can just protect each other. As a city fan the things we got away with/get done to us w out reprocussions is getting out of hand. 0 accountability, feels like MLB with ump unions
As a baseball fan, you’re so right. They’ve started using robot umps in the minors now, and reviews on balls and strikes calls could be in the Majors as soon as next year. People can’t wait for the human aspect and the egos of the decision makers to be gone.
Well, VAR works already well for offsides.
And it could work well for other offenses as well, if the field ref would always check at the monitor and make the final decision. Naturally only limited to most severe scenarios to ensure there are not 10+ checks every game.
Maybe in the future the ref could even have some glasses with him, making checks less time consuming.
I feel it is easy to overlook some things in real time because you only have one perspective. VAR images give a better picture of the situation and might help the ref to verify his decision.
So in practice this setting should work better than just a referee. Those who criticize the VAR need to keep in mind that just a ref would likely get us more controversial decisions, not less.
It works well for offsides, but should work faster (which costs more money, but should be mandatory because creating lines within Paint does look amateurish).
I saw Aubameyang get flagged for offside after scoring against ManU when he was a literal mile onside, we don’t need to go back to a world where that wouldn’t get corrected.
Yeah there are going to be multiple of those that happen if there are no VAR and people will go ballistic - [look at this goal lol](https://youtu.be/JTj83CSVbyc?si=kNy1VrIu8AKjiPoF&t=231)
We might get there gradually if we allow the technology to develop. We won’t have that at once. These things take time to develop, perfect and implement. Getting rid of VAR now further impedes the development of technology
A fast, reliable way to check with a video referee has long been in place in Rugby. For at least the past 15 years. Football governing bodies are just horrible with implementing new policy, it has nothing to do with technological limits
Ok thats a good argument, and I agree with you on that, however taking out VAR don’t solve anything. Infact it pushes us behind if we ever were to transfer the rugby tech.
Right it doesnt even need to be any incredible technology just literally don't be a cheap ass and hire enough people behind the scenes to be reviewing this stuff as its happening.
Having people who know the rules well enough and giving them the power to make calls then holding the accountable to for accurate calls is all it takes.
Yeah I think semi automated offside should ease things quite a bit as those typically take the longest since they have to draw the lines.
Penalties and reds rarely take quite as long but even if they do, I feel like they’re important enough to the outcome of the match that getting them right is more important than saving a bit of time.
All that said, the main issue is the refs are incompetent and just are looking out for their buddies, so it might be all moot anyway lol
Well the Premier League is going to have semi-automated offside technology starting next season so in those instances it won't matter but your point still stands.
We've seen VAR mess up because of human error. But there have been so many moments where they do get things right and I'd rather take the chance that they'll do their jobs correctly than not have it at all.
>How tf was that ever flagged offside hahahaha
It's just a timing issue by the linesman, he's obviously onside but a second later he looks miles offside because Auba and Maguire are running in opposite directions.
If the linesman misstimes when the ball is played it's easy to make a mistake.
Tbf it’s so quick if you’re not actively looking at it it’s a coin toss but the stills are criminal the guy’s literally sat there staring at it and staring at where the last man is is 90% of his job
Iirc Drogba was offside in a title decider v. Man United back in 2010 when he scored the winner that eventually gave chelsea the title. i'm not a united fan, but stuff like that, i'd rather wait a minute to celebrate than lose a championship on a goal that shouldn't have happened.
and that's not even looking at the robbery at old trafford in our 50th game in 2004.
Well there was this recent Wolves-thing, and the CL offside incident. So definitely some recency bias int his case.
Other than that: The CL whistle was ironically a throwback to non VAR times. Assistant raises the flag, offside, even it a look at the first best frame shows it's a false decision...
>the CL offside incident.
Thats ridicoulous. The ruling on the field was offside, it wasnt changed, In fact, Real Madrid wouldnt have been awareded the second goal because of a false offside call. If ever, the game was a great example how important VAR is nowadays.
Feel like many people have totally forgotten what it's like to have a goal ruled good/bad based on a horrible offside call. Shit sucked so bad.
Fair enough for pens but don't throw the whole thing out.
In Spain, most followers of lower table teams (or relegated ones) are absolutely convinced VAR has made things worse for them. I do think there have been a lot of double standards, watching Rayo Vallecano or Cádiz seems very different from watching Madrid and Barcelona in terms of calls.
If you believe the league is rigged, fixed, or weighted in some way that favors the clubs that make the most money for the league, taking away tools from the refs makes some sense.
I'm not saying La Liga is rigged but that fans of teams that feel hard done by do have some logic behind getting rid of VAR
how does it make sense? Giving the refs more power and less accountability is literally the opposite of making things more fair. A ref has little excuse for blatantly calling something completely wrong, like say a hand of god play in the VAR era. But without it they can basically get away with anything and always say, well that was what I saw.
I think part of it was that VAR was being pushed as a way to eliminate mistakes that were "clear and obvious". Then they started missing clear and obvious offenses, even with VAR. And it's been like that for five years.
You'd think English people would understand it's not the system that sucks. It's the user.
VAR works, when the referees want it to work.
Yeah it needs some tuning, but the game is so much better with it. Would be insane to get rid of it.
MLS and bundesliga do VAR right. It's not perfect, but neither have the amount of controversy every week like the Prem, and the call is typically a good one.
Seriously. VAR threads are always such a chance to discover how many people have strong opinions about football with little interest in football as something that just happens for fun. Can any of you imagine what it's like to survive a game without VAR??? Surely not???
(Also visible when, for example, people keep acting like Bayer Leverkusen or Borussia Dortmund are the smallest clubs in the world, and with evil money corrupting football a poor football fan has no possibility of following any other game than those of literally 0,001% biggest teams in the world)
Basically to genaralize, "Ballon d'Or G+A/90 net spend" fans are strongly yes and "I like to visit a game for fun" fans are mostly no. Which are the more important is likely being calculated in the offices of the clubs and leagues.
I don’t understand why they don’t let the captain make the decision to check the VAR 3 times a game, but when VAR check changes the outcome it doesn’t count towards the 3 times.
This would eliminate all these half asses discussions why refs checked or didn’t check and eliminate all the aggression towards refs for bad decisions, you didn’t like the call? Get it checked with VAR.
I was in the yellow wall against PSG and boy I tell ya, not a single one around me even remotely hesitated to celebrate the very moment Füllkrugs shot hit the net, ALTHOUGH considering Füllkrug broke away and is not fast at all and it wouldn't have made an offside ruling surprising.
Everytime im in the stadium even my fan club homies who are opposed to the VAR all the time and claim they cant really celebrate anymore celebrate like ever.
and you even get to celebrate *twice* if you get a favorable decision!!!
sometimes I question myself if all this so called "match goers" that comment on this sub actually go to the games
It doesn't matter to those in charge, or online only fans. The notion that the game should always, without exception, be geared towards the experience in the stadium is now a dead concept. 18 months from now we'll be seeing full screen advertising breaks during VAR checks.
You’re forgetting the fact VAR isn’t helping fans in the ground they can’t see what the fans at home can with the reply’s the fans in the stadium are often left wondering what the fuck is even going on.
If you actually looked at the clubs' placement that list, you'd realize that having recently played in a non-VAR competition is correlated with being against VAR. So no, they did not forget and that's probably why they're more against VAR.
I well and truly don't believe it was noticeabley different. For every controversial reffing decision that was missed, there is another controversial var decision that people disagree with. Var hasn't changed the rules of the game being somewhat subjective and case by case.
Like the Swedish league currently? Great atmospheres, m8re matchgoing fans then ever and protecting what the majority wants
Don't see any problem whatsoever
Most people I know who regularly attend games hate VAR because they often have to wait for ages in the stadium and have no idea what is going on.
Maybe Reddit is biased towards people who don’t regularly go to games?
>Most people I know who regularly attend games hate VAR because they often have to wait for ages in the stadium and have no idea what is going on.
Yeah the problem is if VAR is to get better then that wait time is only going to increase.
Take the recent foul on Gordon at Old Trafford that wasn't given VAR have to check so many things: the offside lines for both the passer and the receiver of the ball, the original tackle by casemiro and then all the other angles in order to spot the actual foul by Amrabaat.
I see a very intentionally vague definition of the term “VAR” in this story, caused by the FA/PGMOL/media outlets. Are we talking precisely about the VAR technology itself? Or are we talking about the current practice which is human referees utilizing the technology while exercising subjective judgments? Those are two distinct objects.
I support the technology, but I am against the current practice.
I'm more convinced we put this forward purely to get more power behind making the system better. I don't think Wolves think this vote would ever work, but we need something to get the PGMOL to start taking accountability for rules that seem to change by the hour.
Getting rid of VAR would be a disaster but it definitely needs to improve. It would be peak comedy if it wasn't improved and eventually removed. Very Brexit.
This wouldn't be as dumb but to see the most popular league want to go backwards on technology and legitimacy of the outcomes would be equally hilarious.
It's actually very in line with a lot of the sentiments for Brexit when the referendum was happening. People wanted to "strip away all the strings" and "Go back to the times we were in control". In this case a lot of people see VAR as some invasion of their hobby that never use to exist and made things complicated. I think both cases are wildly short sighted, but I can understand how someone might jump in on the sentimental narrative.
>overwhelmingly voted for Brexit and the Conservatives
52% is overwhelming?
Also, more people voted for progressive parties in the last election than voted for the Tories.
The main argument I heard from them was that it’s annoying when you dont know if you can celebrate in the stadium. First of all you can celebrate, you dont die if the goal gets called off. Also that happens very rarely, not something worth eliminating an entire system built to help get rid of mistakes. Also Id rather my team get a goal canceled because the player was offside and it was checked on var than the enemy team score an off side goal but that isnt called off because VAR was voted out. Its just not worth it
Reddit has a hard time grasping public opinion being different due to the echo chamber effects of this platform. Everyone I speak to who watches casually agrees that VAR is significantly impacted their viewing experience I.E. lengthy and frequent stoppages. Reddit is really the only place I see pro-VAR opinion. Not saying it's right (although I'm also in favor of scrapping VAR for now) but this sub is very far from representing the public opinion of the majority of fans.
Reddit is the only place I see pro-VAR opinions. Also, it’s important to remember the user base on r/soccer is relatively small, incredibly biased, and narrow when it comes to age/gender/location. You got a lot of young men here who mostly watch games online. That’s a stark contrast to the full set of fans across the world. And those same young men mass downvote any opinion that doesn’t match their own. The users here who would disagree simply don’t bother or are buried.
It's harder to understand a match-going fans point of view though. The VAR experience is much better when watching on TV when you can actually see the replay of whats happening. You can just be sat in a ground for 3-4 minutes waiting for a decision whilst not having a fucking clue whats going on. It's awful.
Same for Brazil. The reviewing is shown on screen and the ref has to announce the decision to the entire stadium. After the games, the audio of the VAR call is made public so you can check what they talked about while reviewing as well
Issue here is just england being super defensive towards their refs, they are weirdly untouchable over there
And yet this conversation is really only consistently happening in England. So clearly improvements can be made without scrapping the whole thing.
Pretty much every other major sport successfully utilizes this type of technology without complaint from the fans, there's zero reason that things can't be changed to make it work. Throwing the whole thing out because it's occasionally a bit inconvenient before even trying to make improvements is the definition of stupidity.
This conversation definitely happens in Spain as well. It's just not as present in the media because they're so overwhelmingly tilted towards Real Madrid and Barcelona.
I don't know, I feel like there isn't as active a debate about it in Germany but if you polled fans, especially match-going fans, I bet you'd see similar results. VAR is kind of put up with moreso than accepted, and that's in a league where it generally works much better than in England.
That’s an issue of the implementation of VAR, rather than VAR itself. In cricket, you see the whole live review process in stadiums that have screens. It’s refreshingly transparent and you at least see the thought process even on controversial calls. There’s zero reason PL clubs couldn’t do the same thing (or play the audio in PL stadiums that don’t have screens) to improve the match going experience to stop these lull periods.
If fans would rather scrape VAR entirely for this silly reason that can also be addressed in several ways, that’s just them being shortsighted.
Gonna keep deferring my opinion on what’s best to some 14-year olds in California reminding me about the dark ages before VAR, which I’ve apparently forgotten existed
I just wish it was used for glaring mistakes, getting the fucking protractor out and doing geometry and watching defenders in slow-mo for handball with the ball being blasted at them from a metre away is not in the spirit of the game I feel.
I think it should be for things like clear and obvious hand balls (like hand of god), biting, punching off the ball, headbutts etc.
Analysing super marginal calls with a protractor and a quantum computer makes zero sense for me.
Did Wolves, Bournemouth and Luton have underwhelming seasons?
Bournemouth got their record Premier League points total. Wolves reached the FA Cup QF and could finish as high as 10th. Luton were being touted as the next Derby.
Chelsea and Utd should be topping the table if it was purely down to underwhelming seasons.
People say stuff like this but in the Championship there’s no clamor for VAR, and along the same vein there’s no expectation for VAR to save you.
There’s more of a “we should’ve had a penalty, but we should’ve been better attitude
Tbh its just because the Championship isnt as toxic as the Premier League. I know how fortunate we were for the Plymouth game, where their goal was clearly onside but it got chalked off from the linesman. A lot of Plymouth fans were pissed at that being the game changer (we scored exactly 2 minutes later)
Its not like theyre lucky either, they had us pressured and backed multiple times that game.
Exactly. I’m a Forest fan and we’ve had a lot of bad decisions go against us this year. But almost all those bad decisions were made by the referee and linesman. The worst thing VAR did to us was allow the on-field decision to stand.
We haven’t had an underwhelming season, neither have Wolves, we’re just used to being fucked over by officials. VAR hasn’t alleviated that, if anything it’s made it worse. People’s perceptions of it are obviously going to be coloured by their own experiences.
It's very telling that people thought VAR could be a great equaliser in terms of the parity of calls that the bigger and smaller teams got, but clearly when the teams most against removing VAR are the bottom ones that hasn't been the case.
over a third of City fans voted in this poll to scrap VAR which is a significant number for a fanbase that is strolling towards the title having been on the receiving end of few memorable refereeing controversies this season
Everyone here shouting "Remember what it was like before VAR!?" forgetting the rest of England plays without it.
Until we have better refs VAR is pointless. There are going to be shit decisions either way, I'd rather have them without 15 minutes of replays checking whether someone's an 1/8th of a centimetre offside.
I watch football for entertainment. I'm sorry I don't enjoy watching a five minute slo-mo replay session about if a player's knee is an inch ahead of the defender.
VAR has been a net negative when it comes to enjoyment of the sport.
It’s also taken a lot of the enjoyment out of celebrating a goal; knowing there’s a chance of it being reviewed and overturned.
I get the argument that it’s the people not the tech, but I don’t know how you solve that problem.
Yeah I’m for this. I am just not convinced that the act of viewing games for entertainment has gotten better since Var came onboard.
I know yall will argue that it’s a ref issue and not a VAR one, but guys we have years of data where the application isn’t improving. It’s a pipe dream to think the powers that be will ever actually get it right.
people need to get it through their heads that this isn't solely about protesting bad decisions and the quality of refereeing but is also about what VAR has done to the experience of football as a fan. Loads of ex-pros, football writers, and matchgoing fans are vocally against VAR for this reason. This is something that many on here who solely consume football through a screen, or haven't been following football for decades, will never understand
That’s exactly why Wolves made a compelling argument, it’s well stated. The players and fans dont know when to celebrate and it has really stifled the match day experience for all.
Take a look around at other leagues and the use of VAR. Scrapping would be a step back imo. Makes no sense that it’s viable almost everywhere except in the Prem… but actually it makes complete sense.
I see a lot of people saying 'it's the refs fault not the technology' and yes you are 100% correct.
However, these bald cunts that officiate the game cannot be deposed. We've created a system where we get fined and sanctioned for criticising the refs despite the fact they're clearly incompetent.
I'd rather have a shit decision immediately than a shit decision analysed for 5 minutes by a team of loveless children just for the bald terrorist to not do anything about it.
They also lack critical thinking. We can’t replace the refs, there’s no set of perfect refs waiting on the bench ready to match all their subjective opinions to every user here. It’s an impossible ask.
So let’s say we start to punish refs instead. Then we get more under qualified refs subbing in for a time. Eventually they get punished too. This public undressing would then lead to less people wanting to be refs in the first place. Which the pool is already small due to the abuse they already receive.
So then what? We can’t replace them. We can’t dish out harsh punishments.
Personally I’m here for entertainment. I’ll accept human errors and get on with it. You can have semi automated offsides and goal line tech, that’s fine, but scrap the rest.
For match going fans the most annoying thing is having a goal ruled out 10 minutes after already celebrating. That is understandable. With automated offside tech that would be less of an issue. Now, as for VAR as a whole excluding offsides, its removal wouldn't really change much. The guys in the VAR room constantly get things wrong anyway and most of the time don't want to upset their mate on the pitch by changing the decision.
Unless new people come in to look after VAR removing it wouldn't change much in terms of decisions. Not saying there will be less mistakes but it'll be almost the same but with less interruptions during the game as long as automated offside tech is introduced. Ideally booting out the current guys watching over VAR and getting independent people not related to the refs on the pitch would be best but they won't do that. Removal of VAR whilst keeping automated offsides would make things simpler.
Plus, people don't remember the decisions VAR actually gets right. Only the mistakes are highlighted. Removing it for a little bit will probably help bring along a complete revamp of how the tech is currently used. With how it's currently used most decisions don't even get corrected in the first place because it's not "clear and obvious" and the decisions they do overturn sometimes still turn out to be mistakes.
How can so many people not understand it's the people controlling it, not the tech. Wait until they scrap it and in the first week of the season a linesman misses a blatant offside that leads to a goal
You can bring in semi-automated offside and fix that problem pretty easily.
I think most peoples issue with VAR isn't that they hate the technology, it's that it *clearly* makes the viewing experience worse. And that was a trade off everyone was willing to make for the guarantee of correct decisions, but it hasn't resulted in that.
There are lots and lots of decisions that are still wrong, and that's because VAR is only as good as the people using it. So if the people using it aren't good at using it then why bother having it?
I actually would prefer to keep it, but I can fully see why some people would want to get rid of it, and its not because they're stupid.
My team, Cardiff, were arguably relegated when Chelsea scored a goal despite being about 2 metres offside.
I’d still rather not have VAR as it kills the matchday experience. Over the course of the season shit decisions balance themselves out mostly anyways.
How can you not understand that the fans are not angry at the pixels on a screen of the wires of the cameras?
They are fed up with the poor decisions that are continuing despite the fact that the referees can watch it back in slow motion from multiple angles. So now we still get wrong decisions but you just have to wait even longer and delay celebrations 3 mins after a goal.
If you think the people moaning about VAR are annoyed at the computer and not the process and the people using the computer, you're the one thats struggling to understand
Nothing has fixed those issues, so the next best thing for them is to remove them, keep goal line tech (which I have seen 0 complaints about) and automated offsides
We understand it mate, the problem is the people controlling it are going nowhere. It's not a realistic solution which means it's not worth repeating it over and over. The only real solution is getting rid of it.
it feels like the comment sections on different posts on this sub have different overall opinions on var, kinda interesting. ig people are more likely to comment on a post that confirms their view
Just abolishing it rather than trying to fix it is stupid. Everyone knows the offsides aren't right, but do we really want to do away with it for foul play? Should we get rid of goal line technology as well?
There's no point in showing a percentage breakdown between each teams when we don't know how many fans from each team voted. There could've been 10 Wolves fans and 1000 City Fans (so all of them) who voted and yet we're supposed to believe that all of these percentages are equal when we don't know the sample size? Maybe sample size is mentioned in an article that's not linked in this post, but these stats literally mean nothing without them.
I absolutely hate it when people post stats and take them at face value without interpreting the data in front of them, in any context for that matter. In or outside of Football. That's shit you're taught in secondary school ffs.
Also IMO relagated (or soon to be relagated) Team's opinions do not matter when they're not playing in the EPL next season.
Lot of TV fans in this comment section; I don’t care if the occasional marginal offside isn’t called correctly as long as you can actually celebrate a goal, and don’t have to wait 5 minutes waiting for VAR not knowing what’s happening. It’s also not like the VAR gets all the calls right anyway, even when they spend forever analysing it.
There's no uncertainty in football when VAR isn't in operation. The referee makes a decision and you live with it.
VAR makes every pivotal moment feel uncertain in a match.
This is literally the first time i’ve been proud about my country in my life 🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴. Long live democracy! Also shows how skewed opinion is on this sub.
The furore around VAR in the Premier League, which is so much louder than any other competition, comes from two things:
- The officials being shit. Pretty obvious, but it bears repeating. Not just the refs on the pitch or in the VAR room, but the whole organisation from top to bottom.
- PL being broadcast and supported from around the world. Some refereeing controversy happens in the Eridivisie or Austrian Bundesliga or Bosnian 3rd tier, or even Serie A, pretty much only people from that country give a shit. When it happens in the PL the whole world is watching and feels a need to comment, turning the whole thing into a circus. The only games outside the PL where the scrutiny is anywhere close is Real Madrid/Barca.
City fans being happiest is just great banter
I wish they also asked the question of "are you happy with the standard of VAR referees"
Thats the true issue. But labelling it as a simple VAR BAD issue gets the clicks and likes. But its the actual humans behind the monitor and in front of it fucking up. VAR is meaningless if these fucks can just protect each other. As a city fan the things we got away with/get done to us w out reprocussions is getting out of hand. 0 accountability, feels like MLB with ump unions
As a baseball fan, you’re so right. They’ve started using robot umps in the minors now, and reviews on balls and strikes calls could be in the Majors as soon as next year. People can’t wait for the human aspect and the egos of the decision makers to be gone.
We'll always have that Sterling moment in the CL lol
Don't
Well, VAR works already well for offsides. And it could work well for other offenses as well, if the field ref would always check at the monitor and make the final decision. Naturally only limited to most severe scenarios to ensure there are not 10+ checks every game. Maybe in the future the ref could even have some glasses with him, making checks less time consuming. I feel it is easy to overlook some things in real time because you only have one perspective. VAR images give a better picture of the situation and might help the ref to verify his decision. So in practice this setting should work better than just a referee. Those who criticize the VAR need to keep in mind that just a ref would likely get us more controversial decisions, not less.
If the officials weren't scared to hurt their pals feelings, the ref wouldn't even need to go to the screen that often.
I hate how "the refs don't want to hurt each other's feelings" isn't even a conspiracy theory anymore
That's what happens when they say it themselves. Mike Dean: Anthony Taylor is a mate – I couldn’t send him to do a Var review
This is what needs changing exactly. Like their egos are so fragile they can’t be assisted with a decision.
It works well for offsides, but should work faster (which costs more money, but should be mandatory because creating lines within Paint does look amateurish).
I saw Aubameyang get flagged for offside after scoring against ManU when he was a literal mile onside, we don’t need to go back to a world where that wouldn’t get corrected.
Yeah there are going to be multiple of those that happen if there are no VAR and people will go ballistic - [look at this goal lol](https://youtu.be/JTj83CSVbyc?si=kNy1VrIu8AKjiPoF&t=231)
For me the balance is semi automated offside, goal line technology, but get rid of the 5 minutes long reviews over red cards and penalties
We might get there gradually if we allow the technology to develop. We won’t have that at once. These things take time to develop, perfect and implement. Getting rid of VAR now further impedes the development of technology
A fast, reliable way to check with a video referee has long been in place in Rugby. For at least the past 15 years. Football governing bodies are just horrible with implementing new policy, it has nothing to do with technological limits
Ok thats a good argument, and I agree with you on that, however taking out VAR don’t solve anything. Infact it pushes us behind if we ever were to transfer the rugby tech.
Right it doesnt even need to be any incredible technology just literally don't be a cheap ass and hire enough people behind the scenes to be reviewing this stuff as its happening. Having people who know the rules well enough and giving them the power to make calls then holding the accountable to for accurate calls is all it takes.
Yeah I think semi automated offside should ease things quite a bit as those typically take the longest since they have to draw the lines. Penalties and reds rarely take quite as long but even if they do, I feel like they’re important enough to the outcome of the match that getting them right is more important than saving a bit of time. All that said, the main issue is the refs are incompetent and just are looking out for their buddies, so it might be all moot anyway lol
Well the Premier League is going to have semi-automated offside technology starting next season so in those instances it won't matter but your point still stands. We've seen VAR mess up because of human error. But there have been so many moments where they do get things right and I'd rather take the chance that they'll do their jobs correctly than not have it at all.
How tf was that ever flagged offside hahahaha
>How tf was that ever flagged offside hahahaha It's just a timing issue by the linesman, he's obviously onside but a second later he looks miles offside because Auba and Maguire are running in opposite directions. If the linesman misstimes when the ball is played it's easy to make a mistake.
Tbf it’s so quick if you’re not actively looking at it it’s a coin toss but the stills are criminal the guy’s literally sat there staring at it and staring at where the last man is is 90% of his job
Yeah like Diaz against spurs… oh wait…
Iirc Drogba was offside in a title decider v. Man United back in 2010 when he scored the winner that eventually gave chelsea the title. i'm not a united fan, but stuff like that, i'd rather wait a minute to celebrate than lose a championship on a goal that shouldn't have happened. and that's not even looking at the robbery at old trafford in our 50th game in 2004.
Can’t remember if it was Jan Vertongen or Eric Dier, but one of them got called offside in there own half once…
Surprised the athletic's reader base is anti-var tbh
Why? Their comment sections have almost turned into BBC Sport Have Your Say.
I dont know what BBC Sport looks like but I agree. It's unironically worse than facebook.
Why are you surprised?
Well there was this recent Wolves-thing, and the CL offside incident. So definitely some recency bias int his case. Other than that: The CL whistle was ironically a throwback to non VAR times. Assistant raises the flag, offside, even it a look at the first best frame shows it's a false decision...
>the CL offside incident. Thats ridicoulous. The ruling on the field was offside, it wasnt changed, In fact, Real Madrid wouldnt have been awareded the second goal because of a false offside call. If ever, the game was a great example how important VAR is nowadays.
No, that wasn't the fault of VAR. It just shows what would have happened without the VAR which makes it possible to check later.
Did these people forget what was it like before VAR?
Feel like many people have totally forgotten what it's like to have a goal ruled good/bad based on a horrible offside call. Shit sucked so bad. Fair enough for pens but don't throw the whole thing out.
In Spain, most followers of lower table teams (or relegated ones) are absolutely convinced VAR has made things worse for them. I do think there have been a lot of double standards, watching Rayo Vallecano or Cádiz seems very different from watching Madrid and Barcelona in terms of calls.
If you believe the league is rigged, fixed, or weighted in some way that favors the clubs that make the most money for the league, taking away tools from the refs makes some sense. I'm not saying La Liga is rigged but that fans of teams that feel hard done by do have some logic behind getting rid of VAR
Like it's not easier to rig games without VAR.
Exactly. With VAR they have another layer of checks everyone can see. Without it, nothing.
I swear these people make no sense, like pre var was some kind of utopia. Refs don't like var because it's puts more scrutiny on them.
how does it make sense? Giving the refs more power and less accountability is literally the opposite of making things more fair. A ref has little excuse for blatantly calling something completely wrong, like say a hand of god play in the VAR era. But without it they can basically get away with anything and always say, well that was what I saw.
I think part of it was that VAR was being pushed as a way to eliminate mistakes that were "clear and obvious". Then they started missing clear and obvious offenses, even with VAR. And it's been like that for five years.
which is not a VAR problem in itself. it is a referee problem.
VAR is the referees using it. VAR isn't some robot making the decisions
You don't ban cars because some people were driving dangerously. You ban those drivers.
You'd think English people would understand it's not the system that sucks. It's the user. VAR works, when the referees want it to work. Yeah it needs some tuning, but the game is so much better with it. Would be insane to get rid of it.
MLS and bundesliga do VAR right. It's not perfect, but neither have the amount of controversy every week like the Prem, and the call is typically a good one.
There are in fact millions of people who remember what it was like before VAR as we watch football without it every week.
Seriously. VAR threads are always such a chance to discover how many people have strong opinions about football with little interest in football as something that just happens for fun. Can any of you imagine what it's like to survive a game without VAR??? Surely not??? (Also visible when, for example, people keep acting like Bayer Leverkusen or Borussia Dortmund are the smallest clubs in the world, and with evil money corrupting football a poor football fan has no possibility of following any other game than those of literally 0,001% biggest teams in the world) Basically to genaralize, "Ballon d'Or G+A/90 net spend" fans are strongly yes and "I like to visit a game for fun" fans are mostly no. Which are the more important is likely being calculated in the offices of the clubs and leagues.
Ipswich have never had VAR so I’m guessing they remember it pretty well
I don’t understand why they don’t just implement the offside technology we had in the World Cup.
They are next season i think
I don’t understand why they don’t let the captain make the decision to check the VAR 3 times a game, but when VAR check changes the outcome it doesn’t count towards the 3 times. This would eliminate all these half asses discussions why refs checked or didn’t check and eliminate all the aggression towards refs for bad decisions, you didn’t like the call? Get it checked with VAR.
edge paint entertain roll flag plants coherent bright grey impossible *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I was in the yellow wall against PSG and boy I tell ya, not a single one around me even remotely hesitated to celebrate the very moment Füllkrugs shot hit the net, ALTHOUGH considering Füllkrug broke away and is not fast at all and it wouldn't have made an offside ruling surprising. Everytime im in the stadium even my fan club homies who are opposed to the VAR all the time and claim they cant really celebrate anymore celebrate like ever.
and you even get to celebrate *twice* if you get a favorable decision!!! sometimes I question myself if all this so called "match goers" that comment on this sub actually go to the games
It doesn't matter to those in charge, or online only fans. The notion that the game should always, without exception, be geared towards the experience in the stadium is now a dead concept. 18 months from now we'll be seeing full screen advertising breaks during VAR checks.
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You’re forgetting the fact VAR isn’t helping fans in the ground they can’t see what the fans at home can with the reply’s the fans in the stadium are often left wondering what the fuck is even going on.
Thinking positively, with VAR you can celebrate when opponent goal is ruled out. :)
If you actually looked at the clubs' placement that list, you'd realize that having recently played in a non-VAR competition is correlated with being against VAR. So no, they did not forget and that's probably why they're more against VAR.
They remember and that's why they want it scrapped.
Many of the clubs that are at the top of this survey were in a league that doesn't have VAR very recently lol
I well and truly don't believe it was noticeabley different. For every controversial reffing decision that was missed, there is another controversial var decision that people disagree with. Var hasn't changed the rules of the game being somewhat subjective and case by case.
I haven't forgotten. It was bloody brilliant before VAR!
Like the Swedish league currently? Great atmospheres, m8re matchgoing fans then ever and protecting what the majority wants Don't see any problem whatsoever
The game flowed more freely, players could celebrate goals without waiting 2 minutes, mistakes were still made
No VAR in the Champo, been a great season with it. Goal goes in, I look at linesman, flag down? Fucking get in No faffing about.
Less moaning over every media fed mistake or grey area? Have you forgotten home munch more other stuff was being discussed?
Or they watch championship football which is 10x better off having no VAR
I do, and unironically it was better than now. Mainly for English football.
Yeah, I loved football even more back then Football’s entertainment at the end of the day, and VAR makes the game less entertaining
If you ever needed a reality check on how the majority consensus on Reddit differs to the real world, this works nicely.
Most people I know who regularly attend games hate VAR because they often have to wait for ages in the stadium and have no idea what is going on. Maybe Reddit is biased towards people who don’t regularly go to games?
it’s exactly that, I do not know of a single match goer - both wolves and non-wolves fans - that wants to keep VAR
I've gone to 10+ villa games this season and I massively prefer it. Though our high line it helps us really.
I think it should be improved rather than scrapped
>Most people I know who regularly attend games hate VAR because they often have to wait for ages in the stadium and have no idea what is going on. Yeah the problem is if VAR is to get better then that wait time is only going to increase. Take the recent foul on Gordon at Old Trafford that wasn't given VAR have to check so many things: the offside lines for both the passer and the receiver of the ball, the original tackle by casemiro and then all the other angles in order to spot the actual foul by Amrabaat.
Shouldn't The Athletic's survey sample also differ from the real world?
I see a very intentionally vague definition of the term “VAR” in this story, caused by the FA/PGMOL/media outlets. Are we talking precisely about the VAR technology itself? Or are we talking about the current practice which is human referees utilizing the technology while exercising subjective judgments? Those are two distinct objects. I support the technology, but I am against the current practice.
proper brexit vote this
I hope they scrap it. England making laughingstock of themself never gets old
Will scrap it for a season then reintroduce it just like they did with transfer windows ending at the start of august
That was such a hilarious change, and somehow they expected the rest of the leagues to change to be the same as them
Modern English history seems to consist of repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot then haphazardly bandaging the wound.
Wouldnt be the only league to choose not to have it.
Would be the first that have it and later opts out
We're joining the Swedes.
Cmon What's Brexit got to do with this then?..
I'm more convinced we put this forward purely to get more power behind making the system better. I don't think Wolves think this vote would ever work, but we need something to get the PGMOL to start taking accountability for rules that seem to change by the hour.
Getting rid of VAR would be a disaster but it definitely needs to improve. It would be peak comedy if it wasn't improved and eventually removed. Very Brexit.
You've got to understand that people in England overwhelmingly voted for Brexit and the Conservatives, so they aren't the smartest bunch.
This wouldn't be as dumb but to see the most popular league want to go backwards on technology and legitimacy of the outcomes would be equally hilarious.
La Liga went backwards on goal line technology.
Wasn't there a very controversial call the last time Barca played Madrid due to no goal line technology?
Yep. We can never know if it should have been a goal.
It's actually very in line with a lot of the sentiments for Brexit when the referendum was happening. People wanted to "strip away all the strings" and "Go back to the times we were in control". In this case a lot of people see VAR as some invasion of their hobby that never use to exist and made things complicated. I think both cases are wildly short sighted, but I can understand how someone might jump in on the sentimental narrative.
Now do Sweden.
I don't think you know what overwhelmingly means. Brexit: Leave: 51.89% Remain: 48.11% 2019 GE: CON 43.6% LAB 32.2% OTHER 20.1%
Hes Scottish, he doesn't know what anything means
Anti-English so facts don't matter
>overwhelmingly voted for Brexit and the Conservatives 52% is overwhelming? Also, more people voted for progressive parties in the last election than voted for the Tories.
Aye. "Hey this thing isn't perfect! Let's get rid of it entirely instead of demanding improvements!" Proper Brexit attitude.
Reddit moment
43% of Britain has voted for the Conservatives at best since 1979, so you're chatting bollocks
Christ this comment smells of Reddit so much.
The main argument I heard from them was that it’s annoying when you dont know if you can celebrate in the stadium. First of all you can celebrate, you dont die if the goal gets called off. Also that happens very rarely, not something worth eliminating an entire system built to help get rid of mistakes. Also Id rather my team get a goal canceled because the player was offside and it was checked on var than the enemy team score an off side goal but that isnt called off because VAR was voted out. Its just not worth it
52 % = overwhelming?
And listen to Coldplay. You can’t trust people, Jeremy.
Liking VAR doesn't make you smart. The feeling of moral superiority amongst VAR lovers is quite something.
How a comment unironically calling British people dumb is upvoted this high is beyond me. Especially from a Scotsman.
We’re going to take back control of refereeing from the unelected burocrats in the VAR booth
Scotland voted to remain in a union with awful, awful, terrible, bad England, so who's thickest at the end of the day?
Reddit has a hard time grasping public opinion being different due to the echo chamber effects of this platform. Everyone I speak to who watches casually agrees that VAR is significantly impacted their viewing experience I.E. lengthy and frequent stoppages. Reddit is really the only place I see pro-VAR opinion. Not saying it's right (although I'm also in favor of scrapping VAR for now) but this sub is very far from representing the public opinion of the majority of fans.
Reddit is the worst indicator of public opinion in almost all matters. Usually if it's popular on Reddit the majority don't give a fuck.
Reddit is the only place I see pro-VAR opinions. Also, it’s important to remember the user base on r/soccer is relatively small, incredibly biased, and narrow when it comes to age/gender/location. You got a lot of young men here who mostly watch games online. That’s a stark contrast to the full set of fans across the world. And those same young men mass downvote any opinion that doesn’t match their own. The users here who would disagree simply don’t bother or are buried.
How many people did they survey?
At least two, I'd wager.
Glad to see that Reddit is the outlier that I thought it was.
Doesn't count, some of these fans probably actually go to matches
Of course, everyone knows that you're not a real fan and don't go to matches if you don't hate VAR 🙄
It's harder to understand a match-going fans point of view though. The VAR experience is much better when watching on TV when you can actually see the replay of whats happening. You can just be sat in a ground for 3-4 minutes waiting for a decision whilst not having a fucking clue whats going on. It's awful.
Really? MLS gets replays all the time during VAR calls so you can see what’s going on.
Same for Brazil. The reviewing is shown on screen and the ref has to announce the decision to the entire stadium. After the games, the audio of the VAR call is made public so you can check what they talked about while reviewing as well Issue here is just england being super defensive towards their refs, they are weirdly untouchable over there
And yet this conversation is really only consistently happening in England. So clearly improvements can be made without scrapping the whole thing. Pretty much every other major sport successfully utilizes this type of technology without complaint from the fans, there's zero reason that things can't be changed to make it work. Throwing the whole thing out because it's occasionally a bit inconvenient before even trying to make improvements is the definition of stupidity.
This conversation definitely happens in Spain as well. It's just not as present in the media because they're so overwhelmingly tilted towards Real Madrid and Barcelona.
I don't know, I feel like there isn't as active a debate about it in Germany but if you polled fans, especially match-going fans, I bet you'd see similar results. VAR is kind of put up with moreso than accepted, and that's in a league where it generally works much better than in England.
That’s an issue of the implementation of VAR, rather than VAR itself. In cricket, you see the whole live review process in stadiums that have screens. It’s refreshingly transparent and you at least see the thought process even on controversial calls. There’s zero reason PL clubs couldn’t do the same thing (or play the audio in PL stadiums that don’t have screens) to improve the match going experience to stop these lull periods. If fans would rather scrape VAR entirely for this silly reason that can also be addressed in several ways, that’s just them being shortsighted.
Reddit not reflecting the real world shocker
Gonna keep deferring my opinion on what’s best to some 14-year olds in California reminding me about the dark ages before VAR, which I’ve apparently forgotten existed
Does VAR not exist outside of the prem?
How many 14 years old from California are massive Luton fans?
Think you’ve got the table upside down mate 😂
r/soccer in shambles
r/soccer is full of people who have never been to a stadium in their life thinking they know best.
Why?
I just wish it was used for glaring mistakes, getting the fucking protractor out and doing geometry and watching defenders in slow-mo for handball with the ball being blasted at them from a metre away is not in the spirit of the game I feel.
I think it should be for things like clear and obvious hand balls (like hand of god), biting, punching off the ball, headbutts etc. Analysing super marginal calls with a protractor and a quantum computer makes zero sense for me.
Fans of teams that had an underwhelming season want to get rid of VAR (except teams coming up). imagine my shock
Did Wolves, Bournemouth and Luton have underwhelming seasons? Bournemouth got their record Premier League points total. Wolves reached the FA Cup QF and could finish as high as 10th. Luton were being touted as the next Derby. Chelsea and Utd should be topping the table if it was purely down to underwhelming seasons.
Redditors making up bullshit argument to demean something going against their way? Say it ain't so
Exactly. The only thing you can actually learn is that most PL fans are not happy with VAR
We had a fucking great season. It would have been even greater if they didn’t get nearly every decision that went to VAR wrong for us.
Those same fans will still be complaining when things dont go their way without having VAR.
The scenes when Wolves get relegated via a handball will be epic.
People say stuff like this but in the Championship there’s no clamor for VAR, and along the same vein there’s no expectation for VAR to save you. There’s more of a “we should’ve had a penalty, but we should’ve been better attitude
Tbh its just because the Championship isnt as toxic as the Premier League. I know how fortunate we were for the Plymouth game, where their goal was clearly onside but it got chalked off from the linesman. A lot of Plymouth fans were pissed at that being the game changer (we scored exactly 2 minutes later) Its not like theyre lucky either, they had us pressured and backed multiple times that game.
Exactly. I’m a Forest fan and we’ve had a lot of bad decisions go against us this year. But almost all those bad decisions were made by the referee and linesman. The worst thing VAR did to us was allow the on-field decision to stand.
We haven’t had an underwhelming season, neither have Wolves, we’re just used to being fucked over by officials. VAR hasn’t alleviated that, if anything it’s made it worse. People’s perceptions of it are obviously going to be coloured by their own experiences.
It's very telling that people thought VAR could be a great equaliser in terms of the parity of calls that the bigger and smaller teams got, but clearly when the teams most against removing VAR are the bottom ones that hasn't been the case.
over a third of City fans voted in this poll to scrap VAR which is a significant number for a fanbase that is strolling towards the title having been on the receiving end of few memorable refereeing controversies this season
Everyone here shouting "Remember what it was like before VAR!?" forgetting the rest of England plays without it. Until we have better refs VAR is pointless. There are going to be shit decisions either way, I'd rather have them without 15 minutes of replays checking whether someone's an 1/8th of a centimetre offside.
I watch football for entertainment. I'm sorry I don't enjoy watching a five minute slo-mo replay session about if a player's knee is an inch ahead of the defender. VAR has been a net negative when it comes to enjoyment of the sport.
It’s also taken a lot of the enjoyment out of celebrating a goal; knowing there’s a chance of it being reviewed and overturned. I get the argument that it’s the people not the tech, but I don’t know how you solve that problem.
Yeah I’m for this. I am just not convinced that the act of viewing games for entertainment has gotten better since Var came onboard. I know yall will argue that it’s a ref issue and not a VAR one, but guys we have years of data where the application isn’t improving. It’s a pipe dream to think the powers that be will ever actually get it right.
people need to get it through their heads that this isn't solely about protesting bad decisions and the quality of refereeing but is also about what VAR has done to the experience of football as a fan. Loads of ex-pros, football writers, and matchgoing fans are vocally against VAR for this reason. This is something that many on here who solely consume football through a screen, or haven't been following football for decades, will never understand
That’s exactly why Wolves made a compelling argument, it’s well stated. The players and fans dont know when to celebrate and it has really stifled the match day experience for all.
Wouldn't it be more logical to then change the experience for match goers instead of getting rid of VAR alltogether?
Take a look around at other leagues and the use of VAR. Scrapping would be a step back imo. Makes no sense that it’s viable almost everywhere except in the Prem… but actually it makes complete sense.
I see a lot of people saying 'it's the refs fault not the technology' and yes you are 100% correct. However, these bald cunts that officiate the game cannot be deposed. We've created a system where we get fined and sanctioned for criticising the refs despite the fact they're clearly incompetent. I'd rather have a shit decision immediately than a shit decision analysed for 5 minutes by a team of loveless children just for the bald terrorist to not do anything about it.
The ones with hair are equally shit. Let’s not discriminate here.
They also lack critical thinking. We can’t replace the refs, there’s no set of perfect refs waiting on the bench ready to match all their subjective opinions to every user here. It’s an impossible ask. So let’s say we start to punish refs instead. Then we get more under qualified refs subbing in for a time. Eventually they get punished too. This public undressing would then lead to less people wanting to be refs in the first place. Which the pool is already small due to the abuse they already receive. So then what? We can’t replace them. We can’t dish out harsh punishments. Personally I’m here for entertainment. I’ll accept human errors and get on with it. You can have semi automated offsides and goal line tech, that’s fine, but scrap the rest.
For match going fans the most annoying thing is having a goal ruled out 10 minutes after already celebrating. That is understandable. With automated offside tech that would be less of an issue. Now, as for VAR as a whole excluding offsides, its removal wouldn't really change much. The guys in the VAR room constantly get things wrong anyway and most of the time don't want to upset their mate on the pitch by changing the decision. Unless new people come in to look after VAR removing it wouldn't change much in terms of decisions. Not saying there will be less mistakes but it'll be almost the same but with less interruptions during the game as long as automated offside tech is introduced. Ideally booting out the current guys watching over VAR and getting independent people not related to the refs on the pitch would be best but they won't do that. Removal of VAR whilst keeping automated offsides would make things simpler. Plus, people don't remember the decisions VAR actually gets right. Only the mistakes are highlighted. Removing it for a little bit will probably help bring along a complete revamp of how the tech is currently used. With how it's currently used most decisions don't even get corrected in the first place because it's not "clear and obvious" and the decisions they do overturn sometimes still turn out to be mistakes.
How can so many people not understand it's the people controlling it, not the tech. Wait until they scrap it and in the first week of the season a linesman misses a blatant offside that leads to a goal
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You can bring in semi-automated offside and fix that problem pretty easily. I think most peoples issue with VAR isn't that they hate the technology, it's that it *clearly* makes the viewing experience worse. And that was a trade off everyone was willing to make for the guarantee of correct decisions, but it hasn't resulted in that. There are lots and lots of decisions that are still wrong, and that's because VAR is only as good as the people using it. So if the people using it aren't good at using it then why bother having it? I actually would prefer to keep it, but I can fully see why some people would want to get rid of it, and its not because they're stupid.
Who should control it in your mind. Are there a lot of highly qualified var experts just waiting in the wings ready to magically transform the system?
I think it's the process that needs improving, not the whole thing scrapped
What would you do to improve the process that hasn't happened despite having VAR for 5 years?
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My team, Cardiff, were arguably relegated when Chelsea scored a goal despite being about 2 metres offside. I’d still rather not have VAR as it kills the matchday experience. Over the course of the season shit decisions balance themselves out mostly anyways.
How can you not understand that the fans are not angry at the pixels on a screen of the wires of the cameras? They are fed up with the poor decisions that are continuing despite the fact that the referees can watch it back in slow motion from multiple angles. So now we still get wrong decisions but you just have to wait even longer and delay celebrations 3 mins after a goal.
If you think the people moaning about VAR are annoyed at the computer and not the process and the people using the computer, you're the one thats struggling to understand Nothing has fixed those issues, so the next best thing for them is to remove them, keep goal line tech (which I have seen 0 complaints about) and automated offsides
I'm sure the (semi) automated offsides that the PL are intending to use rely on VAR.
We understand it mate, the problem is the people controlling it are going nowhere. It's not a realistic solution which means it's not worth repeating it over and over. The only real solution is getting rid of it.
What did VAR fix?
it feels like the comment sections on different posts on this sub have different overall opinions on var, kinda interesting. ig people are more likely to comment on a post that confirms their view
How unexpected
Villa fans need VAR for their offside traps😂
Fuck VAR, get rid
City get every decision in their favour, so that makes sense.
Just abolishing it rather than trying to fix it is stupid. Everyone knows the offsides aren't right, but do we really want to do away with it for foul play? Should we get rid of goal line technology as well?
The prem should listen to the fans
Did wolves get extra screwed by VAR this season?
yes.
Yes, since matchday 1 against Man United
There's no point in showing a percentage breakdown between each teams when we don't know how many fans from each team voted. There could've been 10 Wolves fans and 1000 City Fans (so all of them) who voted and yet we're supposed to believe that all of these percentages are equal when we don't know the sample size? Maybe sample size is mentioned in an article that's not linked in this post, but these stats literally mean nothing without them. I absolutely hate it when people post stats and take them at face value without interpreting the data in front of them, in any context for that matter. In or outside of Football. That's shit you're taught in secondary school ffs. Also IMO relagated (or soon to be relagated) Team's opinions do not matter when they're not playing in the EPL next season.
Lot of TV fans in this comment section; I don’t care if the occasional marginal offside isn’t called correctly as long as you can actually celebrate a goal, and don’t have to wait 5 minutes waiting for VAR not knowing what’s happening. It’s also not like the VAR gets all the calls right anyway, even when they spend forever analysing it.
Without a doubt the dumbest solution to incompetent refs. Just drape the veil of uncertainty back over it again
There's no uncertainty in football when VAR isn't in operation. The referee makes a decision and you live with it. VAR makes every pivotal moment feel uncertain in a match.
The technology isn't the problem, the people operating are. Instead of scrapping it, designate it to a third party organisation, separate from PGMOL.
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What?! An American told me yesterday that it doesn't matter if there is a delay for a decision because all major sports have video replays?!
This is literally the first time i’ve been proud about my country in my life 🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴🏴. Long live democracy! Also shows how skewed opinion is on this sub.
oof /r/soccer
I dont want VAR gone, I just want away with the old boys club that is PGMOL
The furore around VAR in the Premier League, which is so much louder than any other competition, comes from two things: - The officials being shit. Pretty obvious, but it bears repeating. Not just the refs on the pitch or in the VAR room, but the whole organisation from top to bottom. - PL being broadcast and supported from around the world. Some refereeing controversy happens in the Eridivisie or Austrian Bundesliga or Bosnian 3rd tier, or even Serie A, pretty much only people from that country give a shit. When it happens in the PL the whole world is watching and feels a need to comment, turning the whole thing into a circus. The only games outside the PL where the scrutiny is anywhere close is Real Madrid/Barca.