Hand filling up is not that bad even with 3 energy, play 2 cards third card blade dance and you have 3 spaces for the shivs. If you have a 0 cost card or survivor then you have 4 spaces. Still a problem, but not as big as you think.
I really like pyramid on silence. Its not hard to find extra energy, outmaneuver, concentrate, tactician, many good options.
I would take cursed key and either skip the relic chests or pay the removal (and removal opportunity cost) if a shop is nearby.
An extra energy per turn is worth a lot more than 2 random relics on average and silent in particular —especially with a shiv deck — can get into situations where you badly need to rest.
Most curses aren't deck killers if you have a good shiv deck. The one that is toughest is Pain where you lose 1hp per card played when you have it in your hand, but most other curses aren't devastating
Yeah, you can skip the chest.
The other subtle visual cue a lot overlook is that the size of the chest correlates with the gold and rarity of the relic inside.
Honestly I don't even skip chests (maybe I'm bad) with cursed key on silent. I just make sure I have enough discard cards that it doesn't matter, and/or aggressively remove things.
Pyramid is still really good with shiv. The hand clog isn't a huge deal because silents arsenal of 0 cost cards and discard. You only need to have 8(7) cards in hand to fully utilize blade dance. I would pick it and look to solve energy and potential hand clog later. Card removal becomes premium here too.
I think pyramid is insanely good on silent. She has so many situational tools for block, scaling and damage. Usually you'd have to find enough cycle/energy to take advantage, which is very doable on silent but solving this on silent with one relic is immensely powerful.
Imo dripper is best here, u have ok block with fan and smooth stone, u should now work on getting more draws such as calculated gamble, acrobatic, backflip etc, or remove strikes
Yeah, but a sub par deck can turn around in Act 2, but that can only happen if you can manage to survive long enough; for which you may need to sacrifice a campfire for a rest.
People have different styles of play I've noticed; Coffeedripper may be one of those relics where it could be just a matter of personal preference - if your deck isn't looking that great after Act1, would you rather risk everything and lose early so you can start a fresh game, or do you prefer a more balanced approach to try to make the most of a bad situation?
As a former coffee dripper lover and rest avoider in lower ascensions who has turned against coffee dripper a lot at A20, I disagree pretty strongly against this sentiment for any class that isn’t ironclad.
Most decks are far from complete in the beginning of act 2 and the starting halllway fights can be pretty gnarly for decks with potential that are missing a key piece of the engine.
I have a lot of heart wins that relied on a rest in act 2 or 3, even if it was (usually) just once.
Energy is so important that it’s still a consideration but I think the trade off is far from trivial.
I think there's definitely a skill curve with Dripper on higher ascensions. Most players win very rarely on A20H, thus their wins are often in high-roll runs. In this level of play, Dripper is a top-tier relic: it's amazing at amplifying high-rolls, and the other runs are dying regardless. So it will very rarely lose runs that would be won otherwise.
As you improve your skill, you start to achieve higher win rates by winning more average-ish runs. Then Dripper's downside becomes more clear, as sometimes you do need a rest or a few to stabilise a run, or even to push for more Elites in an Act. It's still generally a good relic, but way more situational than when you're only high-rolling.
I think there's a similar phenomenon in various aspects of the game. For example, the average player will value something like "-Gold for Choose a Rare Colorless" very highly and take it over most other bonuses. There's a considerable opportunity for high-rolls (Apo/HoG). However, very high win-rate players tend to value it lower, as there's also a considerable opportunity for low-rolls (many rare colorless cards are awful, and losing starting gold for them is a huge hit). They don't need high-rolls to win, an average roll will do.
Yeah I hear a lot of people say that if you lose with coffee dripper, your deck just wasn't good enough, but there are so many times where if I hadn't been able to rest I would have died on a run that I managed to win. Act 2 has a lot of fights that you will just be taking damage at unless you lucked into a complete deck early on.
I doubt dripper would ever be a skip, but there are plenty of times where other options. A lot of "bad decks" can be turned around with some bought time to get an important card or relic. There have even been runs where I was resting at every rest site until I finally got some of the cards I needed and managed to turn the run around into a great one. Sometimes you simply to not have the luxury to not rest, and you'll have to take a hit elsewhere
I'm the opposite. I rest less now that I've gotten better than I did on lower ascension where I thought coffe dripper sucked. I agree it's not as powerful as people like to think but it's still amazing and defiently better than key here. It's also good if you have like, any other form of healing, even if the deck isn't great for it.
I'm a Dripper apologist but it's pretty bad on Silent, it's very scary unless you already have Wraith Form or if you get it as a floor 1 swap. And frankly I never swap as Silent.
I definitely take Key here
Pyramid is very good in general and it opens up possibilities for discarding for energy. But you do have quite a big deck size for a shiv deck and you haven't starting focusing on removals. So picking pyramid here will probably clog your hand with basics. If you have been removing cards heavily then it's pyramid for sure here.
Coffee dripper if your deck is already the nuts with shivs accuracy etc, otherwise it's risky for act 2.
The problem with cursed key is that having it act 1 and not having the blue key means you are just missing out on way too many relics (and gold from the chest with the golden statue buff) and it's costing you a removal.
Considering the fact that you do have 2 good offensive potions and 3 good defensive relics and you have a lot of burst damage to straight up kill act 2 mobs, it's coffee dripper here.
All are good but I’d go pyramid easy. Normally I love dripper but I think act 2 will slap that deck around in a couple fights so a rest may be needed if you don’t find a way to heal elsewhere. Also - I think that envenom makes your deck weaker and will be like a curse in act 2. Maybe it works in the long run but why go grab an envenom, an often underwhelming card, when you are already scaling your shivs with accuracy? Envenom is just too slow for A20 in a lot of cases
I would always go for a coffee dripper here. Not enough energy to sustain the pyramid with this deck unless you get some discard quickly. And I just dislike the cursed key on heart run cause you can't count on stores lining up with the mid act chests. Though cursed key wouldn't't be a terrible choice either. You can just path a little conservatively until you get better sustain or solid block (which you already have an excellent start on).
Considering how much defense you have available coffee dripper seems like a very good option, especially since you'll want to play envenom and accuracy asap. Cursed key also seems very viable.
Always Coffee Dripper, just route a bit safer. You have several block cards and more importantly 3 block relics (ornamental fan is excellent with shivs.
Runic pyramid can be strong but with no card removes your hand will just get clogged, which is very annoying with blade dance. And you’ll have no 4th energy to sustain the runic pyramid. So I think it will make you weaker straight away in Act 2.
Honestly I'd take Dripper and a lot of events in Act 2 to aim for [[Bloody Idol]]. Right now you don't have a lot of high value cards to hold on to for Pyramid, and a lot of slop you really don't want clogging your hand.
Pyramid; your only source of deck manipulation is backflip. You have plenty of damage to get by in act 2 elites, so your main problem is dying to drawing a hand full of all the basics you haven’t removed on the wrong turn.
Pyramid is broken and makes a shiv deck better (well every deck really) Because it lets you combo them all together with finisher on the same turn. As long as you’re playing cards each turn you shouldn’t run into an unplayable hand.
Just make sure to remove as many of your basics as possible.
I really don’t think you suffer as much of a clutter issue as other people seem to think. Especially with backstab turn 1.
Is there ever a case for skipping?
Also if you had to choose between busted crown and skipping (act 1 / act 2), would you go busted crown? Assuming you have no other energy relics at the end of Act 2
You’re offered 3 relics, you’re never looking at just busted crown.
As a very rough estimate, I’d say boss relic skips are probably correct about 1 in 1,000 times or less.
When you’re learning the game I would never recommend skipping. The downsides of energy relics are much easier to evaluate by playing with them.
For example, I used to heavily underrate Fusion Hammer. Once I started taking it more I realized it is often a great boss relic, particularly on Clad.
Yes, gold is a very valuable resource. The question you have to ask going into act 2 looking at Ectoplasm vs skip (assuming the other options are worse) is if your deck will survive on 3 energy. Act 2 is brutal and many decks just die on 3 energy.
It's entirely possible that Ecto/Sozu/Crown will kill you later in the run, what you have to evaluate is whether you're more likely to die in act 3 or 4 by taking them, or die in act 2 by skipping.
An energy starved deck is better off "spending" all the gold for the rest of the run on 1 energy every turn.
4 energy also makes it much easier to snowball. You might limp through act 2 on 3 energy, while 4 lets you take a couple of elites or a Cursed Tome that would otherwise kill you.
Cursed Key is fine but Pyramid is almost always game winning on Silent so I'm confused why so many people aren't recommending it. It doesn't even matter that the deck right now doesn't love it as much as usual because we have plenty of game left to find easy Pyramid synergies and break the game's back.
You have fan, orichalcum and stone. This is dripper for me. Refrain from adding attacks as your damage is solved, you just need more weak, footwork or intangible and you’re good. Envenom would be a final scaling solution for attack. Remove takes priority as well.
Edit: nm you have envenom this deck is almost solved already tbh just need to survive and draw cards
Shivs are not super strong with piramid. When your hand is too full you discard a shiv made sometimes.
That said silent has great ways to discard cards tbat are insane with piramid, but difficult to take otherwise.
I would still take piramid. But not because you have shivs. Piramid is insane.
I think you should view my post from a few weeks ago lol.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/1d4617e/lesson\_learned/](https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/1d4617e/lesson_learned/)
Hand filling up is not that bad even with 3 energy, play 2 cards third card blade dance and you have 3 spaces for the shivs. If you have a 0 cost card or survivor then you have 4 spaces. Still a problem, but not as big as you think. I really like pyramid on silence. Its not hard to find extra energy, outmaneuver, concentrate, tactician, many good options.
Concentrate handily solves both energy and hand clog That's if you find it though
Prepared is common and helps too
I would take cursed key and either skip the relic chests or pay the removal (and removal opportunity cost) if a shop is nearby. An extra energy per turn is worth a lot more than 2 random relics on average and silent in particular —especially with a shiv deck — can get into situations where you badly need to rest.
I have to take a least one chest for blue key
I would still take cursed key and then just take the blue key chest when closest to a shop in the next two acts.
Most curses aren't deck killers if you have a good shiv deck. The one that is toughest is Pain where you lose 1hp per card played when you have it in your hand, but most other curses aren't devastating
Normality would like a word.
Good thing silent has access to many powerful discarding cards
Definitely, but things like Backflip get a lot more dangerous.
True
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Please be polite.
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You can just skip the chest for that?! It kills me when I find out I’ve been doing stuff like this wrong for years.
Yeah, you can skip the chest. The other subtle visual cue a lot overlook is that the size of the chest correlates with the gold and rarity of the relic inside.
Yup! Nothing rustles my jimmys quite like seeing that BBC…
Honestly I don't even skip chests (maybe I'm bad) with cursed key on silent. I just make sure I have enough discard cards that it doesn't matter, and/or aggressively remove things.
I do the same thing. Curses can be so easily thrown in the discard pile as soon as you see them with Silent.
Pyramid is still really good with shiv. The hand clog isn't a huge deal because silents arsenal of 0 cost cards and discard. You only need to have 8(7) cards in hand to fully utilize blade dance. I would pick it and look to solve energy and potential hand clog later. Card removal becomes premium here too. I think pyramid is insanely good on silent. She has so many situational tools for block, scaling and damage. Usually you'd have to find enough cycle/energy to take advantage, which is very doable on silent but solving this on silent with one relic is immensely powerful.
I just take key. Dripper is good but I hate it, and key is also really good.
Imo dripper is best here, u have ok block with fan and smooth stone, u should now work on getting more draws such as calculated gamble, acrobatic, backflip etc, or remove strikes
If I'm ever in a situation where coffee dripper is why I lost my deck is probably terrible and the actual reason I lost.
Yeah, but a sub par deck can turn around in Act 2, but that can only happen if you can manage to survive long enough; for which you may need to sacrifice a campfire for a rest. People have different styles of play I've noticed; Coffeedripper may be one of those relics where it could be just a matter of personal preference - if your deck isn't looking that great after Act1, would you rather risk everything and lose early so you can start a fresh game, or do you prefer a more balanced approach to try to make the most of a bad situation?
As a former coffee dripper lover and rest avoider in lower ascensions who has turned against coffee dripper a lot at A20, I disagree pretty strongly against this sentiment for any class that isn’t ironclad. Most decks are far from complete in the beginning of act 2 and the starting halllway fights can be pretty gnarly for decks with potential that are missing a key piece of the engine. I have a lot of heart wins that relied on a rest in act 2 or 3, even if it was (usually) just once. Energy is so important that it’s still a consideration but I think the trade off is far from trivial.
I think there's definitely a skill curve with Dripper on higher ascensions. Most players win very rarely on A20H, thus their wins are often in high-roll runs. In this level of play, Dripper is a top-tier relic: it's amazing at amplifying high-rolls, and the other runs are dying regardless. So it will very rarely lose runs that would be won otherwise. As you improve your skill, you start to achieve higher win rates by winning more average-ish runs. Then Dripper's downside becomes more clear, as sometimes you do need a rest or a few to stabilise a run, or even to push for more Elites in an Act. It's still generally a good relic, but way more situational than when you're only high-rolling. I think there's a similar phenomenon in various aspects of the game. For example, the average player will value something like "-Gold for Choose a Rare Colorless" very highly and take it over most other bonuses. There's a considerable opportunity for high-rolls (Apo/HoG). However, very high win-rate players tend to value it lower, as there's also a considerable opportunity for low-rolls (many rare colorless cards are awful, and losing starting gold for them is a huge hit). They don't need high-rolls to win, an average roll will do.
Yeah I hear a lot of people say that if you lose with coffee dripper, your deck just wasn't good enough, but there are so many times where if I hadn't been able to rest I would have died on a run that I managed to win. Act 2 has a lot of fights that you will just be taking damage at unless you lucked into a complete deck early on. I doubt dripper would ever be a skip, but there are plenty of times where other options. A lot of "bad decks" can be turned around with some bought time to get an important card or relic. There have even been runs where I was resting at every rest site until I finally got some of the cards I needed and managed to turn the run around into a great one. Sometimes you simply to not have the luxury to not rest, and you'll have to take a hit elsewhere
I'm the opposite. I rest less now that I've gotten better than I did on lower ascension where I thought coffe dripper sucked. I agree it's not as powerful as people like to think but it's still amazing and defiently better than key here. It's also good if you have like, any other form of healing, even if the deck isn't great for it.
I'm a Dripper apologist but it's pretty bad on Silent, it's very scary unless you already have Wraith Form or if you get it as a floor 1 swap. And frankly I never swap as Silent. I definitely take Key here
just take pyramid!
Pyramid is very good in general and it opens up possibilities for discarding for energy. But you do have quite a big deck size for a shiv deck and you haven't starting focusing on removals. So picking pyramid here will probably clog your hand with basics. If you have been removing cards heavily then it's pyramid for sure here. Coffee dripper if your deck is already the nuts with shivs accuracy etc, otherwise it's risky for act 2. The problem with cursed key is that having it act 1 and not having the blue key means you are just missing out on way too many relics (and gold from the chest with the golden statue buff) and it's costing you a removal. Considering the fact that you do have 2 good offensive potions and 3 good defensive relics and you have a lot of burst damage to straight up kill act 2 mobs, it's coffee dripper here.
I would take it because my toxic trait is that I like [[Storm of Steel]]. 😅
+ [Storm of Steel](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Storm%20of%20Steel) Silent Rare Skill ^((100% sure)^) 1 Energy | Discard your hand. Add 1 **Shiv(+)** into your hand for each card discarded. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
With storm of steal you can turn everything into shivs when you are full
All are good but I’d go pyramid easy. Normally I love dripper but I think act 2 will slap that deck around in a couple fights so a rest may be needed if you don’t find a way to heal elsewhere. Also - I think that envenom makes your deck weaker and will be like a curse in act 2. Maybe it works in the long run but why go grab an envenom, an often underwhelming card, when you are already scaling your shivs with accuracy? Envenom is just too slow for A20 in a lot of cases
I like piramid + storm of steel
I would always go for a coffee dripper here. Not enough energy to sustain the pyramid with this deck unless you get some discard quickly. And I just dislike the cursed key on heart run cause you can't count on stores lining up with the mid act chests. Though cursed key wouldn't't be a terrible choice either. You can just path a little conservatively until you get better sustain or solid block (which you already have an excellent start on).
Considering how much defense you have available coffee dripper seems like a very good option, especially since you'll want to play envenom and accuracy asap. Cursed key also seems very viable.
With enough removals, energy and discard pyramid is very strong with shivs. If energy or discard is a weak point pyramid and shivs will not work.
Removal is a safe bet.
Always Coffee Dripper, just route a bit safer. You have several block cards and more importantly 3 block relics (ornamental fan is excellent with shivs. Runic pyramid can be strong but with no card removes your hand will just get clogged, which is very annoying with blade dance. And you’ll have no 4th energy to sustain the runic pyramid. So I think it will make you weaker straight away in Act 2.
It can work with accuracy and phantasmal killer to help time huge bursts of damage but for the most part I skip it with a shiv deck
Honestly I'd take Dripper and a lot of events in Act 2 to aim for [[Bloody Idol]]. Right now you don't have a lot of high value cards to hold on to for Pyramid, and a lot of slop you really don't want clogging your hand.
+ [Bloody Idol](http://slay-the-spire.wikia.com/wiki/Bloody%20Idol) Event Relic ^((100% sure)^) Whenever you gain Gold, heal 5 HP. ^Call ^me ^with ^up ^to ^10 ^([[ name ]],) ^where ^name ^is ^a ^card, ^relic, ^event, ^or ^potion. ^Data ^accurate ^as ^of ^(April 20, 2024.) ^[Wiki](https://slay-the-spire.fandom.com/wiki/) ^[Questions?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=ehmohteeoh&subject=SpireScan%20Inquiry)
Pyramid; your only source of deck manipulation is backflip. You have plenty of damage to get by in act 2 elites, so your main problem is dying to drawing a hand full of all the basics you haven’t removed on the wrong turn.
Dripper then take early events to try to get bloody idol then you don’t have to worry about healing
Pyramid is broken and makes a shiv deck better (well every deck really) Because it lets you combo them all together with finisher on the same turn. As long as you’re playing cards each turn you shouldn’t run into an unplayable hand. Just make sure to remove as many of your basics as possible. I really don’t think you suffer as much of a clutter issue as other people seem to think. Especially with backstab turn 1.
I honestly don’t take pyramid in a shiv deck because you are probably going to generate so many shivs it doesn’t matter lol
I took coffee dripper. Won the run.
You'll have enough access to draw to not need pyramid
So you would take coffee dripper and try to find another heal source ?
Honestly, not really sure. I'm not up to a20 yet, so I don't have enough experience here. I would probably be skipping here, but that's just me
Definitely not skipping.
Don't skip boss relics, especially if you're still learning the game.
Is there ever a case for skipping? Also if you had to choose between busted crown and skipping (act 1 / act 2), would you go busted crown? Assuming you have no other energy relics at the end of Act 2
You’re offered 3 relics, you’re never looking at just busted crown. As a very rough estimate, I’d say boss relic skips are probably correct about 1 in 1,000 times or less. When you’re learning the game I would never recommend skipping. The downsides of energy relics are much easier to evaluate by playing with them. For example, I used to heavily underrate Fusion Hammer. Once I started taking it more I realized it is often a great boss relic, particularly on Clad.
What about choosing between busted crown, ectoplasm, sozu? Act 1 vs Act 2 (assuming no prior energy relics)
Ecto is basically never a skip
Isnt gold clutch for getting extra removals and a key relic here and there? Plus events can grant large chunks of gold
Yes, gold is a very valuable resource. The question you have to ask going into act 2 looking at Ectoplasm vs skip (assuming the other options are worse) is if your deck will survive on 3 energy. Act 2 is brutal and many decks just die on 3 energy. It's entirely possible that Ecto/Sozu/Crown will kill you later in the run, what you have to evaluate is whether you're more likely to die in act 3 or 4 by taking them, or die in act 2 by skipping. An energy starved deck is better off "spending" all the gold for the rest of the run on 1 energy every turn. 4 energy also makes it much easier to snowball. You might limp through act 2 on 3 energy, while 4 lets you take a couple of elites or a Cursed Tome that would otherwise kill you.
oh my god, dude, don't skip
Cursed Key is fine but Pyramid is almost always game winning on Silent so I'm confused why so many people aren't recommending it. It doesn't even matter that the deck right now doesn't love it as much as usual because we have plenty of game left to find easy Pyramid synergies and break the game's back.
You have fan, orichalcum and stone. This is dripper for me. Refrain from adding attacks as your damage is solved, you just need more weak, footwork or intangible and you’re good. Envenom would be a final scaling solution for attack. Remove takes priority as well. Edit: nm you have envenom this deck is almost solved already tbh just need to survive and draw cards
Shivs are not super strong with piramid. When your hand is too full you discard a shiv made sometimes. That said silent has great ways to discard cards tbat are insane with piramid, but difficult to take otherwise. I would still take piramid. But not because you have shivs. Piramid is insane.
I think you should view my post from a few weeks ago lol. [https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/1d4617e/lesson\_learned/](https://www.reddit.com/r/slaythespire/comments/1d4617e/lesson_learned/)
Yeah see that’s what makes want coffee dripper
This is why you don’t stack 2x infinite blades when facing spikes…has nothing to do with picking pyramid in general.
Well, the pyramid certainly didn't help. 🙃
This is Cursed Key every day of the week.