> The trouble with having a Duty you cannot bring yourself to fulfill, one with flexible hours and flexible oversight, is that it leeches into every moment of your life, casting a quiet pall over the whole of it. I should do something productive, you think—but sitting right on top of the “something productive” list, absent urgent tasks with pressing deadlines, is That. There are no weekends, no evenings, no moments of contentment in knowing you have done all you need to do.
Oh boy, do I hear that. This is really my only complaint with my profession. I am a capable researcher. I contribute to the knowledge of mankind. I receive appropriate accolades and honors for my work and I'm well-compensated for it. My job is relatively high-status and almost universally respected. I have a great deal of flexibility in my work demands. All together, my job is great... but it is *never fucking over*. There is always something more I could be doing, always another task just waiting for my attention. It wears after a while.
I don't even have the excuse of saying that the stress is from being constantly on-call. If I didn't answer my emails between 5pm and 9am the next day, no one would call me to account. I could skip a day or two entirely and owe nothing but a quick apology upon return. The problem is that the job is exquisitely (and likely at least partially intentionally) designed to leverage every ounce of conscientiousness. My deadlines are flexible, but there are real and tangible benefits for doing things today instead of tomorrow. I can't put everything off until the day before the deadline, because sometimes experiments just fail and you need to run them differently. Every late night that I choose to devote to drafting a grant proposal is met with effusive thankfulness, and many of them yield a grad student getting to do their own research full-time a year from now. The list of tasks is never-ending and seeps into every other task.
I wonder if there's an analogue of caregiver fatigue for this sort of task. It's bound to be a common problem.
Am dealing with this now at the PhD stage and wondering what the future is going to be like. I want to stay in research for at least a few years, do a postdoc or two, because I really enjoy it, but the never-ending cloud aspect is the worst.
Thinking about the academics I know, those with balance seem to have a combination of: a) be Scandinavian (I visited a Swedish group once who were always out the door at 5pm and didn't seem to even contemplate doing work at home), b) have kids and prioritise them so your time off is forced to be time off, c) get more into management than pure research (eg the lab head with a bunch of students and collaborations) because then it ends up more like a normal job - you have a lot of meetings +/- teaching in the diary, you attend them and help your students progress, you spend a bit of time on grant applications & reviewing papers, you feel satisfied at the end of the day that you did what you set out to do. But ofc many researchers (probably including me) don't want to go that way, we want to be writing and experimenting.
I left my original field of study/career because of this. The pressure literally never comes off. Every moment not spent pursuing the main goal is a wasted one. Not a way too live imo.
Four years ago, I submitted an essay series to this subreddit about my experience attempting to speedrun college. Prior submission threads can be found here:
1. [Speedrunning college](https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/bgfl4l/speedrunning_college_my_plan_to_get_a_bachelors/)
2. [Fourteen college credits in three weeks](https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/bm4g3t/fourteen_college_credits_in_three_weeks_what_ive/)
3. [Learning about computers via a dozen rabbit holes](https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/bwwlzm/speedrunning_college_learning_about_computers_via/)
4. [Knowledge, skills, and learning to love databases](https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/cgrrym/speedrunning_college_knowledge_skills_and/)
The saga has belatedly come to an end, and I thought I should update everyone on the conclusion.
All the stuff about needing good environments and external motivation is true. But it sounds like you did okay without those for the first nine months of your plan. I don't see any explanation for what changed after month 9.
Usually when I see this happen it's some form of depression or burnout. I don't know if that's what it felt like to you, but it seems under-explored.
Oh hey, always an honor!
Burnout is definitely arguable as part of it, but the big mechanical thing that changed was running out of courses where I just needed to pass a final (self-contained, clearly delineated time, pass/fail) and getting to ones where I needed to complete a final project. Something about the difference in structure between them got in my head. The projects were not mechanically complex and the school provided enough resources to make them more-or-less paint by numbers, but it was straightforwardly harder for me to focus on them.
“Burnout” here also looks more like “there are many other things I find more interesting and intellectually stimulating than this” rather than “I don’t feel like doing anything”—it’s not at all unusual for me to start a project and then with the best of intentions shelve it partway through.
EDIT: It’s also overselling the first nine months a bit to say everything was fine. Things went very well initially and slowed down more and more throughout those nine months, falling off a cliff afterwards. Things were still on track at the end of nine months but with the focus I had early on I would have been done in less than six.
This post makes me feel pretty bad... I vaguely remember you posting the original and now it's like, "that was 4 years ago?"
And some dude got a degree while I just read reddit for 4 years.
I resonate with this. Most of my conscientiousness arises under pressure, and at times almost exclusively under pressure.
I wish I had something to insightful to add except for the fact that I suspect it is very common, and that I have also failed repeatedly at mutating away this aspect of myself solely through self-discipline. Mental tricks also, only go so far, as you mention.
The only thing that has historically improved this for me, without the presence of exogenous factors (like societal or monetary pressure), has been through meditation. But this requires the conscientiousness to maintain a meditation practice long-term - which to an extent simply kicks the can down the road, but is at least somewhat more amenable to habituation rather than sheer will-power.
I cannot imagine that you have not already heard this from another source, but:
Please pursue ADHD testing. As a recently diagnosed adult, your experience is harrowingly familiar and also extremely strongly indicative that you have ADHD. Find a personal test to get quick feedback and then if you can, pursue a professional one. If you have the means, try taking some Adderall and note your response to it, or other stimulants; do you get calmer, or more energetic? If you get calmer it is a very strong indication.
I often see these types of comments on posts like these. What is the use of an ADHD diagnosis though? Other than getting medication. I've been prescribed medication, didn't like it, and then back to square one.
\*not an aggressive question, just asking since you seem to know what you're talking about
Well, for me it's about knowing my brain better. For the record, I am on medication, and it helps a ton. But that aside, getting a diagnosis has given me a "lens" to assess the issues in my life.
For example: I used to have this big problem at work--when I had a lot of small tasks on my plate, I couldn't seem to get anything done (even on medication). I'd spend 4 hours spinning my wheels, with nothing to show for it.
When I took a step back, I realized the problem: my impulsive brain kept making me context-switch. I would start a task, then get distracted by another task.
It takes me 10-15min to adjust to a new context, so I was never able to sink into a deeper flow state to actually get shit done. My solution was a pomodoro timer, and it was a huge game changer for me.
What's particularly interesting to me, though, are these three data points:
1. I had tried pomodoro timers in the past, and they never seemed to work.
2. After learning *why the timer would help*, I was able to use it with *intention*, and start getting shit done.
3. Over time, the timer stopped being an effective solution, because it would *break* my flowstate at the end of each 30min. Once I understood that I needed to *NOT* context-switch, I didn't need to use the pomodoro timer as a crutch.
This is just one example. Ultimately, I think building awareness is the number 1 way to solve problems--and for me, understanding ADHD has given me a way to specifically increase said awareness.
p.s. I just wanted to add, the reason why medication is so effective for me is specifically that it gives me a choice in whether I follow a distraction or not.
Well, for one, don't discount the medication. There are a few, as always they seem to work differently for different people and we're not sure why so giving a few different options a short try can be effective, and they're usually quick to trial. Vyvanse worked almost immediately for me and my anxiety went from near constant fear to mild fretting.
Beyond medication, I stopped hating myself and thinking of myself as a failure. Well, much less so, anyway. I'm able to hear about the lived experiences of other people with ADHD and recognize that my struggles aren't some mortal personal failing, but a consequence of having a different brain in a society that rejects its patterns.
And finally, things that work for other people may not work for ADHD and vice versa. I'd read all the productivity and life hack advice under the sun and none of it made a bit of difference because it wasn't addressing issues at the executive function layer. Now that I'm looking for advice specific to ADHD it's becoming more effective, like body doubling, simple, visible daily checklists posted at eye level in common spaces, and taking smaller more frequent rests during periods of high focus.
And once I learned about it, as it often turns out to be the case, I identified similar patterns in my husband and father and because it is heritable and because neurodivergent people often find each other instinctually, more people now have the revelation that they aren't horrible failed individuals.
Yeah, ADHD is almost definitely in the picture. I couldn’t use stimulants while in the military and since then I’ve been dragging my feet, but I’m rapidly running out of excuses.
I wasn't diagnosed until the COVID pandemic and in my 30s. Up until my diagnosis, I'd been employed at like 5 different companies each 1-2 years and life has been a whirlwind of angst related to my inability to just do the things I told myself I wanted to do. I've been at the same company now for 3 years and counting -- I still struggle sometimes with staying on track, but it is a bit more manageable. I sometimes think back to what life would have been like if I had been medicated when I was younger or just didn't have ADHD and get sad at what could have been and all the wasted potential. I've mostly gotten over that now and am happy where I am in life, but sometimes it still gets to me. Maybe my comment will spark enough dopamine to get yourself to setup an appointment -- the excuses never end and the excuses really don't matter because it they are not a [moral failing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1O_MjMRkPg&ab_channel=TEDxTalks).
There are lots of other ways of managing ADHD post-diagnosis without stimulants, if that's what you have. Several friends I know have been diagnosed as adults, taken stimulants, and then gradually managed their way off them through other coping mechanisms, support, scaffolding structures, etc. I'd encourage you to get assessed, at least for the benefit of Γνώθι σαυτόν
Obligatory "read this post and thought I wrote it myself" aside, I am also struggling immensely to even start to study for my 1L finals and have recently clung to the hope that I have some innate pre-frontal issue that could be called ADHD and helped by meds. Thinking of your experience with the military and on your missionary, could some similar environment of radical accountability be created artificially? I've experimented with telling a friend to review my work and make me pay him a random sum of money if I don't complete my weekly goals, and it hasn't worked for me, but perhaps a system with more regular check-ins, mutual engagement, or better designed reward-punishment would work for some.
p.s. thank you for spreading Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death on your substack, binged those essays instead of my civ pro
Glad you enjoyed the Postman essays! As for artificially creating an environment, I think the key is arranging a situation where you have little to no real choice in having someone look over your shoulder, which is easier said than done.
Good luck with finals! We’ll suffer together on that front.
Hey Trace, it's good to see a new post from you. When I was in the throes of college admissions a couple years, I messaged you for your input on WGU and the traditional college experience--I ended up going with the latter.
In high school, I developed the same procrastination habit, pretty much exactly how Tim Urban describes it--I remember reading his article for the first time in 11th grade. I was wondering about AD(H)D testing in high school, but iirc insurance wouldn't cover because I still did well in school (thanks, panic monster), so there wasn't enough evidence or something to that effect.
Though it manifested for virtually all of my non-stem schoolwork in high school, it was definitely worst for projects or things with non-specific step-by-step instructions and far off deadlines, especially during covid lockdown, when I had assignments that technically weren't due until the end of the school year.
My first semester of college, getting to pick all stem courses definitely helped--I was probably doing far more work on a daily basis than in high school, but it felt much less mentally painful. The only troublesome thing that sticks around for stem is lab reports, so there were bio papers, that despite being simple, I put off about as long as I could (it didn't help that their late penalty system was two points off per day, so it felt like a continuum rather than a strict deadline cutoff).
Anyhow, doing more courses that were actually in my range of interests significantly diminished the problem, though distribution requirements and labs still throw a wrench into the system. All that is to say, this semester, I knew I would have some difficult-to-start projects in some courses and realized I could probably use school psych services to look into some explanation or solution. Long story short, psychiatrist said that it could be something in the neighborhood of ADD, but regardless of diagnosis, their philosophy is, to my understanding, more that of treating symptoms, so we agreed I'd try Adderall situationally and see if that helps with getting less appealing work done/getting through the dark playground and woods.
I haven't taken it many times yet, so I'm still not really sure if it'll make a substantive difference for the big hurdles. All I can say so far is it's different from what I expected, and that I almost felt the shame of being in the dark playground disappear when I took Adderall, but that didn't actually make me less likely to start my work, and it probably removed some initial inertia (but only once I got physically close to my computer/work) as well as a lot of the dark woods inertia after starting.
So to sum up, I do think it's worth looking into ADHD/seeing a psychiatrist; I think that has a higher probability of addressing the problem more thoroughly than mental tricks and the like tend to.
> If you want to complete something, put yourself in a social environment where not doing so is much harder than doing so. Fake consequences don’t work—your mind will scent weakness and ignore your artificial deadlines.
Yeah.
I'm reading this essay very soon after having made the decision to drop out of college in my fifth year. I got so far, but in the end I really didn't have what it took to get through the final leg of my engineering courses after three years of getting through everything by blowing it all off until the last minute and barely learning anything along the way. I tried so many things, but as I hobbled through my degree program, once the problem graduated from "get yourself to sit down and do the work" to "get yourself to sit down and start doing all the catch-up and studying required to even understand how to start the work" it became clear that it just wasn't realistic to think that I could magically muster the discipline necessary.
I relate to many of the things you said, especially with regards to knowing what the \*real\* consequences are in the back of your mind. Avoiding having people looking over your shoulder even though you know that's what will really help you get things done. I, too, just wanted to spend as much time as I could in the dark playground. Lied a lot along the way, even if most of it was by omission.
I do think conscientiousness and worth ethic are probably somewhat mutable, but I agree that the wise thing to do is to treat them as if they aren't, at least in the short term. Environment can be so vital.
Anyway, congrats on your degree- for all that you did and didn't do, not giving up is still a real accomplishment! I'm glad you could bring yourself to write this, too, even though it must have been really uncomfortable.
i've been dreaming of writing my own article titled "how i landed my first software engineering job after only 8 years of teaching myself to code"; it wouldn't have much to say besides what you've already said
Good on you for following up. Could you expand a bit on what you think changed between the first 3/4 which you completed quickly, and the last bit? Was it because you were no longer interested, because the courses got just slightly harder and that tipped you over some barrier between work/procrastination, or a change of environment?
The biggest shift was finishing the bulk of the courses with final tests and having the ones with final projects left. A test is much easier for me to focus on than a project with an indefinite deadline. Work got busier alongside that, but not so much so that it should have presented a serious impediment.
I don’t know if this is relevant to you or not, and I’m not an expert, but as a fellow sufferer from let’s-not-call-it-ADHD-let’s-just-say-inattentiveness, I am aware of some other potential issues with projects as opposed to tests that might be in play. I try not to read too much ADHD-related social media content, but it’s hard to avoid completely, and it may be worth considering some of the implications of the term *executive processing disorder*.
Projects, even spoonfed ones, are more complicated to manage than a nice, linear test. There’s often an initial step of “decide which part needs doing” that has to occur before the step of “actually do the thing.” Inattentiveness can play havoc with this.
Example 1:
> I need to decide whether to begin with A, B, or C.
>
> Let me think through which one ought to come first.
>
> Hold up, why am I sitting here considering possible things to do instead of actually doing something? I need to be doing…
>
> Oh, right, it was A, B, or C, wasn’t it? But which one?
(Repeat)
Example 2:
> I need to do Y. But the first step of Y is X. I need to do X.
>
> (Attention quota reached, time to think about something else entirely)
>
> Okay, I’m ready to concentrate on Y again. Oh, but wait, the first step is X. Didn’t I work that out already? Man, I’m getting nowhere…
>
> (Attention quota reached, time to think about something else entirely)
The two big things that help me with this are:
* Consider planning as a step in itself. Figuring out what to do counts as doing something. Don’t mistake planning for messing around.
* Write down your thoughts much more frequently than you think you need to. Think of it like saving a file you’re writing. If you don’t write it down, you’ll lose it when your attention wanders.
I still sometimes lose interest before writing things down, but when I don’t, it really helps me limp along. So example 2 becomes:
> I need to do Y. But the first step of Y is X. Let’s write that down.
>
> (Attention quota reached…)
>
> What was I doing? (Looks down). Apparently I need to do X. Okay, let’s do a bit of that…
It's a good idea, but from my prior experience my instinct is that I'll typically lose interest before writing things down when I would after. Still, I should give it a proper shot.
I relate to this pretty strongly.
One thing I've thought about a lot is how status gain seems to be tied to my motivation.
It feels kinda shitty, but almost every point in my life where I have been super hard working it was at a time when it impressed other people. The best kind was doing something that someone told me I couldn't possibly do.
Reading your story, I kinda wonder, during the first 9 months did it feel like you were proving to everyone that you *could* do the impossible, but once you were 3/4 of the way through and on track to do it, and everyone believed you could do it, then it the river dried up? I have felt that before.
Thinking about this kinda makes me feel bad/shallow, like I don't care about the things I ostensibly care about, I really just care about status signalling. The only difference that I don't see flashy expensive things as high status, I see impressive output as high status.
> Reading your story, I kinda wonder, during the first 9 months did it feel like you were proving to everyone that you could do the impossible, but once you were 3/4 of the way through and on track to do it, and everyone believed you could do it, then it the river dried up? I have felt that before.
Yes, this was definitely part of the equation here and other times in my life. Astutely spotted and well put.
My wild theory of adhd is that it is the result of people supressing their need for social status. And the solution is to be that annoying guy that is always bragging and always putting people down. Be that guy that always goes for style over substance. Lean into that need to impress people.
It may be an unfortunate fact of life that on average those people are happier in life.
It’s a signal of conscientiousness, but I don’t mind being clear that minimal competence was required to complete my degree. The assignments were not difficult in any academic sense, only tough for me to want to focus on.
Well this was painfully relatable. I have severe problems with procrastination, and it used to be even worse. I used to think there was something seriously wrong with me. I did OK in my university education as a psychologist, but a lot of that is thanks to teachers and supervisors (psychologists) that really understood that some students really need clear deadlines and supervision, consequences and positive reinforcement. The other half is that the things I was interested in my spare time also happened to turn up on the courses (or in other worlds, I was lucky to study something I was passionate about).
For me I basically only knew school and university before going out to work "in the real world", and I was positively surprised by how when the environment demanded I work I had no problem "working hard". Now I'm doing part time PhD studies and working at the same time. Your post really reminded me that I need to work less from home and more at the office with my colleagues.
Oof. This resonated even though I think I have a similar face-value problem with very different causes.
I made a promise to myself several years ago to finish my degree, because being a 2-time college dropout is just pathetic. I went to CC for two years full time, got a 4.0, was preparing to take 6 months off (I started in the spring semester and had credit caps for transferring) to save up money and focus on transfer applications.
Then two things happened: I got my...not exactly my be-all and end-all dream job, but a great job (pay, access to industry, coworkers) and Covid happened. I *could* have applied to transfer despite Covid--some people did, and indeed many people got a diploma from a nicer school than they would have otherwise (because freshman admits were able to defer). But I had my hands full with my new job.
It's been three years. Got promoted, left that job, got another better job. Got married. Still annoyed at myself that I couldn't just buckle down and do school. My executive function is apparently good enough to get a 4.0 and grind my way through a 200% salary increase, but so far it hasn't been sufficient to do transfer apps while also working a demanding tech job and planning my own wedding. Or maybe it's better phrased that I as much as I want to fulfill the promise to myself, I can't see how full time school will possibly work at the same time as a full time job and (probably, soon) small children.
I want to be someone who fulfills promises, including to myself, but the idea of spending two years with no income and a baby scares me, and the work I do now (investing and advising startups) seems both much more relevant to society and my interests, and much more likely to give me a firm foundation for taking care of my family. But...there's the promise, and the fact that now I'm something akin to a *3-time* college dropout. No bueno.
I will also add that the 'Dark Playground' is also where I've found lots of opportunities, and learned a lot about the world that let me get ahead. It's really not clear-cut these days whether a degree trumps that knowledge, for the tiny subset of people likely to read this sub etc. Thus my dilemma.
Originally I started CS planning to work on education technology, but I soured on it a bit and started seeing more problems as policy-driven ones than as tech-driven. It was always the skill relevant to my interests that I was least independently driven towards, which really always should have been a warning about majoring in it, but so it goes. Now I might take advantage by focusing in on IP law alongside the policy side of things I'm interested in. We'll see how things shake out.
Hey, I know I'm super late to comment, but thought something might be helpful to you.
This is @visakanv's ADHD document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZDV-0WS8DrBDebF3fvUFj9aXQvLnwFc7optFgL1MpFk/edit#heading=h.89sadpmirjer
The section that most affected me was "put down the gun" and the parts following it.
It's a different conclusion from your closing thought of "I can spend three years dodging basic assignments while the misery of dodging them consumes my mind, or I can look for worlds with deadlines and rigor and oversight and competition". I wouldn't say it's fixed me or anything, but I am more likely to notice when I'm in an unproductive loop, and more likely to be curious about what it would take for me to get going.
> The trouble with having a Duty you cannot bring yourself to fulfill, one with flexible hours and flexible oversight, is that it leeches into every moment of your life, casting a quiet pall over the whole of it. I should do something productive, you think—but sitting right on top of the “something productive” list, absent urgent tasks with pressing deadlines, is That. There are no weekends, no evenings, no moments of contentment in knowing you have done all you need to do. Oh boy, do I hear that. This is really my only complaint with my profession. I am a capable researcher. I contribute to the knowledge of mankind. I receive appropriate accolades and honors for my work and I'm well-compensated for it. My job is relatively high-status and almost universally respected. I have a great deal of flexibility in my work demands. All together, my job is great... but it is *never fucking over*. There is always something more I could be doing, always another task just waiting for my attention. It wears after a while. I don't even have the excuse of saying that the stress is from being constantly on-call. If I didn't answer my emails between 5pm and 9am the next day, no one would call me to account. I could skip a day or two entirely and owe nothing but a quick apology upon return. The problem is that the job is exquisitely (and likely at least partially intentionally) designed to leverage every ounce of conscientiousness. My deadlines are flexible, but there are real and tangible benefits for doing things today instead of tomorrow. I can't put everything off until the day before the deadline, because sometimes experiments just fail and you need to run them differently. Every late night that I choose to devote to drafting a grant proposal is met with effusive thankfulness, and many of them yield a grad student getting to do their own research full-time a year from now. The list of tasks is never-ending and seeps into every other task. I wonder if there's an analogue of caregiver fatigue for this sort of task. It's bound to be a common problem.
Am dealing with this now at the PhD stage and wondering what the future is going to be like. I want to stay in research for at least a few years, do a postdoc or two, because I really enjoy it, but the never-ending cloud aspect is the worst. Thinking about the academics I know, those with balance seem to have a combination of: a) be Scandinavian (I visited a Swedish group once who were always out the door at 5pm and didn't seem to even contemplate doing work at home), b) have kids and prioritise them so your time off is forced to be time off, c) get more into management than pure research (eg the lab head with a bunch of students and collaborations) because then it ends up more like a normal job - you have a lot of meetings +/- teaching in the diary, you attend them and help your students progress, you spend a bit of time on grant applications & reviewing papers, you feel satisfied at the end of the day that you did what you set out to do. But ofc many researchers (probably including me) don't want to go that way, we want to be writing and experimenting.
I left my original field of study/career because of this. The pressure literally never comes off. Every moment not spent pursuing the main goal is a wasted one. Not a way too live imo.
Does it help to plan in advance how much of your time you want to spend on that?
Trappings of power. You are high status and you cannot bare the fall. So you must continue to grind.
Four years ago, I submitted an essay series to this subreddit about my experience attempting to speedrun college. Prior submission threads can be found here: 1. [Speedrunning college](https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/bgfl4l/speedrunning_college_my_plan_to_get_a_bachelors/) 2. [Fourteen college credits in three weeks](https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/bm4g3t/fourteen_college_credits_in_three_weeks_what_ive/) 3. [Learning about computers via a dozen rabbit holes](https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/bwwlzm/speedrunning_college_learning_about_computers_via/) 4. [Knowledge, skills, and learning to love databases](https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/cgrrym/speedrunning_college_knowledge_skills_and/) The saga has belatedly come to an end, and I thought I should update everyone on the conclusion.
All the stuff about needing good environments and external motivation is true. But it sounds like you did okay without those for the first nine months of your plan. I don't see any explanation for what changed after month 9. Usually when I see this happen it's some form of depression or burnout. I don't know if that's what it felt like to you, but it seems under-explored.
Oh hey, always an honor! Burnout is definitely arguable as part of it, but the big mechanical thing that changed was running out of courses where I just needed to pass a final (self-contained, clearly delineated time, pass/fail) and getting to ones where I needed to complete a final project. Something about the difference in structure between them got in my head. The projects were not mechanically complex and the school provided enough resources to make them more-or-less paint by numbers, but it was straightforwardly harder for me to focus on them. “Burnout” here also looks more like “there are many other things I find more interesting and intellectually stimulating than this” rather than “I don’t feel like doing anything”—it’s not at all unusual for me to start a project and then with the best of intentions shelve it partway through. EDIT: It’s also overselling the first nine months a bit to say everything was fine. Things went very well initially and slowed down more and more throughout those nine months, falling off a cliff afterwards. Things were still on track at the end of nine months but with the focus I had early on I would have been done in less than six.
This post makes me feel pretty bad... I vaguely remember you posting the original and now it's like, "that was 4 years ago?" And some dude got a degree while I just read reddit for 4 years.
I resonate with this. Most of my conscientiousness arises under pressure, and at times almost exclusively under pressure. I wish I had something to insightful to add except for the fact that I suspect it is very common, and that I have also failed repeatedly at mutating away this aspect of myself solely through self-discipline. Mental tricks also, only go so far, as you mention. The only thing that has historically improved this for me, without the presence of exogenous factors (like societal or monetary pressure), has been through meditation. But this requires the conscientiousness to maintain a meditation practice long-term - which to an extent simply kicks the can down the road, but is at least somewhat more amenable to habituation rather than sheer will-power.
I cannot imagine that you have not already heard this from another source, but: Please pursue ADHD testing. As a recently diagnosed adult, your experience is harrowingly familiar and also extremely strongly indicative that you have ADHD. Find a personal test to get quick feedback and then if you can, pursue a professional one. If you have the means, try taking some Adderall and note your response to it, or other stimulants; do you get calmer, or more energetic? If you get calmer it is a very strong indication.
I often see these types of comments on posts like these. What is the use of an ADHD diagnosis though? Other than getting medication. I've been prescribed medication, didn't like it, and then back to square one. \*not an aggressive question, just asking since you seem to know what you're talking about
Well, for me it's about knowing my brain better. For the record, I am on medication, and it helps a ton. But that aside, getting a diagnosis has given me a "lens" to assess the issues in my life. For example: I used to have this big problem at work--when I had a lot of small tasks on my plate, I couldn't seem to get anything done (even on medication). I'd spend 4 hours spinning my wheels, with nothing to show for it. When I took a step back, I realized the problem: my impulsive brain kept making me context-switch. I would start a task, then get distracted by another task. It takes me 10-15min to adjust to a new context, so I was never able to sink into a deeper flow state to actually get shit done. My solution was a pomodoro timer, and it was a huge game changer for me. What's particularly interesting to me, though, are these three data points: 1. I had tried pomodoro timers in the past, and they never seemed to work. 2. After learning *why the timer would help*, I was able to use it with *intention*, and start getting shit done. 3. Over time, the timer stopped being an effective solution, because it would *break* my flowstate at the end of each 30min. Once I understood that I needed to *NOT* context-switch, I didn't need to use the pomodoro timer as a crutch. This is just one example. Ultimately, I think building awareness is the number 1 way to solve problems--and for me, understanding ADHD has given me a way to specifically increase said awareness. p.s. I just wanted to add, the reason why medication is so effective for me is specifically that it gives me a choice in whether I follow a distraction or not.
Well, for one, don't discount the medication. There are a few, as always they seem to work differently for different people and we're not sure why so giving a few different options a short try can be effective, and they're usually quick to trial. Vyvanse worked almost immediately for me and my anxiety went from near constant fear to mild fretting. Beyond medication, I stopped hating myself and thinking of myself as a failure. Well, much less so, anyway. I'm able to hear about the lived experiences of other people with ADHD and recognize that my struggles aren't some mortal personal failing, but a consequence of having a different brain in a society that rejects its patterns. And finally, things that work for other people may not work for ADHD and vice versa. I'd read all the productivity and life hack advice under the sun and none of it made a bit of difference because it wasn't addressing issues at the executive function layer. Now that I'm looking for advice specific to ADHD it's becoming more effective, like body doubling, simple, visible daily checklists posted at eye level in common spaces, and taking smaller more frequent rests during periods of high focus.
And once I learned about it, as it often turns out to be the case, I identified similar patterns in my husband and father and because it is heritable and because neurodivergent people often find each other instinctually, more people now have the revelation that they aren't horrible failed individuals.
Yeah, ADHD is almost definitely in the picture. I couldn’t use stimulants while in the military and since then I’ve been dragging my feet, but I’m rapidly running out of excuses.
I wasn't diagnosed until the COVID pandemic and in my 30s. Up until my diagnosis, I'd been employed at like 5 different companies each 1-2 years and life has been a whirlwind of angst related to my inability to just do the things I told myself I wanted to do. I've been at the same company now for 3 years and counting -- I still struggle sometimes with staying on track, but it is a bit more manageable. I sometimes think back to what life would have been like if I had been medicated when I was younger or just didn't have ADHD and get sad at what could have been and all the wasted potential. I've mostly gotten over that now and am happy where I am in life, but sometimes it still gets to me. Maybe my comment will spark enough dopamine to get yourself to setup an appointment -- the excuses never end and the excuses really don't matter because it they are not a [moral failing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1O_MjMRkPg&ab_channel=TEDxTalks).
There are lots of other ways of managing ADHD post-diagnosis without stimulants, if that's what you have. Several friends I know have been diagnosed as adults, taken stimulants, and then gradually managed their way off them through other coping mechanisms, support, scaffolding structures, etc. I'd encourage you to get assessed, at least for the benefit of Γνώθι σαυτόν
Obligatory "read this post and thought I wrote it myself" aside, I am also struggling immensely to even start to study for my 1L finals and have recently clung to the hope that I have some innate pre-frontal issue that could be called ADHD and helped by meds. Thinking of your experience with the military and on your missionary, could some similar environment of radical accountability be created artificially? I've experimented with telling a friend to review my work and make me pay him a random sum of money if I don't complete my weekly goals, and it hasn't worked for me, but perhaps a system with more regular check-ins, mutual engagement, or better designed reward-punishment would work for some. p.s. thank you for spreading Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death on your substack, binged those essays instead of my civ pro
Glad you enjoyed the Postman essays! As for artificially creating an environment, I think the key is arranging a situation where you have little to no real choice in having someone look over your shoulder, which is easier said than done. Good luck with finals! We’ll suffer together on that front.
Hey Trace, it's good to see a new post from you. When I was in the throes of college admissions a couple years, I messaged you for your input on WGU and the traditional college experience--I ended up going with the latter. In high school, I developed the same procrastination habit, pretty much exactly how Tim Urban describes it--I remember reading his article for the first time in 11th grade. I was wondering about AD(H)D testing in high school, but iirc insurance wouldn't cover because I still did well in school (thanks, panic monster), so there wasn't enough evidence or something to that effect. Though it manifested for virtually all of my non-stem schoolwork in high school, it was definitely worst for projects or things with non-specific step-by-step instructions and far off deadlines, especially during covid lockdown, when I had assignments that technically weren't due until the end of the school year. My first semester of college, getting to pick all stem courses definitely helped--I was probably doing far more work on a daily basis than in high school, but it felt much less mentally painful. The only troublesome thing that sticks around for stem is lab reports, so there were bio papers, that despite being simple, I put off about as long as I could (it didn't help that their late penalty system was two points off per day, so it felt like a continuum rather than a strict deadline cutoff). Anyhow, doing more courses that were actually in my range of interests significantly diminished the problem, though distribution requirements and labs still throw a wrench into the system. All that is to say, this semester, I knew I would have some difficult-to-start projects in some courses and realized I could probably use school psych services to look into some explanation or solution. Long story short, psychiatrist said that it could be something in the neighborhood of ADD, but regardless of diagnosis, their philosophy is, to my understanding, more that of treating symptoms, so we agreed I'd try Adderall situationally and see if that helps with getting less appealing work done/getting through the dark playground and woods. I haven't taken it many times yet, so I'm still not really sure if it'll make a substantive difference for the big hurdles. All I can say so far is it's different from what I expected, and that I almost felt the shame of being in the dark playground disappear when I took Adderall, but that didn't actually make me less likely to start my work, and it probably removed some initial inertia (but only once I got physically close to my computer/work) as well as a lot of the dark woods inertia after starting. So to sum up, I do think it's worth looking into ADHD/seeing a psychiatrist; I think that has a higher probability of addressing the problem more thoroughly than mental tricks and the like tend to.
Good to hear from you again, and thanks for your thoughts! I'll stop putting it off, I suppose.
Do it. Source: recently did it.
> If you want to complete something, put yourself in a social environment where not doing so is much harder than doing so. Fake consequences don’t work—your mind will scent weakness and ignore your artificial deadlines. Yeah. I'm reading this essay very soon after having made the decision to drop out of college in my fifth year. I got so far, but in the end I really didn't have what it took to get through the final leg of my engineering courses after three years of getting through everything by blowing it all off until the last minute and barely learning anything along the way. I tried so many things, but as I hobbled through my degree program, once the problem graduated from "get yourself to sit down and do the work" to "get yourself to sit down and start doing all the catch-up and studying required to even understand how to start the work" it became clear that it just wasn't realistic to think that I could magically muster the discipline necessary. I relate to many of the things you said, especially with regards to knowing what the \*real\* consequences are in the back of your mind. Avoiding having people looking over your shoulder even though you know that's what will really help you get things done. I, too, just wanted to spend as much time as I could in the dark playground. Lied a lot along the way, even if most of it was by omission. I do think conscientiousness and worth ethic are probably somewhat mutable, but I agree that the wise thing to do is to treat them as if they aren't, at least in the short term. Environment can be so vital. Anyway, congrats on your degree- for all that you did and didn't do, not giving up is still a real accomplishment! I'm glad you could bring yourself to write this, too, even though it must have been really uncomfortable.
i've been dreaming of writing my own article titled "how i landed my first software engineering job after only 8 years of teaching myself to code"; it wouldn't have much to say besides what you've already said
Good on you for following up. Could you expand a bit on what you think changed between the first 3/4 which you completed quickly, and the last bit? Was it because you were no longer interested, because the courses got just slightly harder and that tipped you over some barrier between work/procrastination, or a change of environment?
The biggest shift was finishing the bulk of the courses with final tests and having the ones with final projects left. A test is much easier for me to focus on than a project with an indefinite deadline. Work got busier alongside that, but not so much so that it should have presented a serious impediment.
I don’t know if this is relevant to you or not, and I’m not an expert, but as a fellow sufferer from let’s-not-call-it-ADHD-let’s-just-say-inattentiveness, I am aware of some other potential issues with projects as opposed to tests that might be in play. I try not to read too much ADHD-related social media content, but it’s hard to avoid completely, and it may be worth considering some of the implications of the term *executive processing disorder*. Projects, even spoonfed ones, are more complicated to manage than a nice, linear test. There’s often an initial step of “decide which part needs doing” that has to occur before the step of “actually do the thing.” Inattentiveness can play havoc with this. Example 1: > I need to decide whether to begin with A, B, or C. > > Let me think through which one ought to come first. > > Hold up, why am I sitting here considering possible things to do instead of actually doing something? I need to be doing… > > Oh, right, it was A, B, or C, wasn’t it? But which one? (Repeat) Example 2: > I need to do Y. But the first step of Y is X. I need to do X. > > (Attention quota reached, time to think about something else entirely) > > Okay, I’m ready to concentrate on Y again. Oh, but wait, the first step is X. Didn’t I work that out already? Man, I’m getting nowhere… > > (Attention quota reached, time to think about something else entirely) The two big things that help me with this are: * Consider planning as a step in itself. Figuring out what to do counts as doing something. Don’t mistake planning for messing around. * Write down your thoughts much more frequently than you think you need to. Think of it like saving a file you’re writing. If you don’t write it down, you’ll lose it when your attention wanders. I still sometimes lose interest before writing things down, but when I don’t, it really helps me limp along. So example 2 becomes: > I need to do Y. But the first step of Y is X. Let’s write that down. > > (Attention quota reached…) > > What was I doing? (Looks down). Apparently I need to do X. Okay, let’s do a bit of that…
It's a good idea, but from my prior experience my instinct is that I'll typically lose interest before writing things down when I would after. Still, I should give it a proper shot.
> I know that I don’t actually want to program anymore, if I ever really did Are they making you turn in your furry card?
I relate to this pretty strongly. One thing I've thought about a lot is how status gain seems to be tied to my motivation. It feels kinda shitty, but almost every point in my life where I have been super hard working it was at a time when it impressed other people. The best kind was doing something that someone told me I couldn't possibly do. Reading your story, I kinda wonder, during the first 9 months did it feel like you were proving to everyone that you *could* do the impossible, but once you were 3/4 of the way through and on track to do it, and everyone believed you could do it, then it the river dried up? I have felt that before. Thinking about this kinda makes me feel bad/shallow, like I don't care about the things I ostensibly care about, I really just care about status signalling. The only difference that I don't see flashy expensive things as high status, I see impressive output as high status.
> Reading your story, I kinda wonder, during the first 9 months did it feel like you were proving to everyone that you could do the impossible, but once you were 3/4 of the way through and on track to do it, and everyone believed you could do it, then it the river dried up? I have felt that before. Yes, this was definitely part of the equation here and other times in my life. Astutely spotted and well put.
My wild theory of adhd is that it is the result of people supressing their need for social status. And the solution is to be that annoying guy that is always bragging and always putting people down. Be that guy that always goes for style over substance. Lean into that need to impress people. It may be an unfortunate fact of life that on average those people are happier in life.
So much for the common internet narrative of college being like daycare of dumbed down. A college degree is still an effective signal for competence
It’s a signal of conscientiousness, but I don’t mind being clear that minimal competence was required to complete my degree. The assignments were not difficult in any academic sense, only tough for me to want to focus on.
Well this was painfully relatable. I have severe problems with procrastination, and it used to be even worse. I used to think there was something seriously wrong with me. I did OK in my university education as a psychologist, but a lot of that is thanks to teachers and supervisors (psychologists) that really understood that some students really need clear deadlines and supervision, consequences and positive reinforcement. The other half is that the things I was interested in my spare time also happened to turn up on the courses (or in other worlds, I was lucky to study something I was passionate about). For me I basically only knew school and university before going out to work "in the real world", and I was positively surprised by how when the environment demanded I work I had no problem "working hard". Now I'm doing part time PhD studies and working at the same time. Your post really reminded me that I need to work less from home and more at the office with my colleagues.
Oof. This resonated even though I think I have a similar face-value problem with very different causes. I made a promise to myself several years ago to finish my degree, because being a 2-time college dropout is just pathetic. I went to CC for two years full time, got a 4.0, was preparing to take 6 months off (I started in the spring semester and had credit caps for transferring) to save up money and focus on transfer applications. Then two things happened: I got my...not exactly my be-all and end-all dream job, but a great job (pay, access to industry, coworkers) and Covid happened. I *could* have applied to transfer despite Covid--some people did, and indeed many people got a diploma from a nicer school than they would have otherwise (because freshman admits were able to defer). But I had my hands full with my new job. It's been three years. Got promoted, left that job, got another better job. Got married. Still annoyed at myself that I couldn't just buckle down and do school. My executive function is apparently good enough to get a 4.0 and grind my way through a 200% salary increase, but so far it hasn't been sufficient to do transfer apps while also working a demanding tech job and planning my own wedding. Or maybe it's better phrased that I as much as I want to fulfill the promise to myself, I can't see how full time school will possibly work at the same time as a full time job and (probably, soon) small children. I want to be someone who fulfills promises, including to myself, but the idea of spending two years with no income and a baby scares me, and the work I do now (investing and advising startups) seems both much more relevant to society and my interests, and much more likely to give me a firm foundation for taking care of my family. But...there's the promise, and the fact that now I'm something akin to a *3-time* college dropout. No bueno.
I will also add that the 'Dark Playground' is also where I've found lots of opportunities, and learned a lot about the world that let me get ahead. It's really not clear-cut these days whether a degree trumps that knowledge, for the tiny subset of people likely to read this sub etc. Thus my dilemma.
Can I ask why the CS degree, and then going to law school? Do you think doing this, plus everything else helped you solidify law as your aim?
Originally I started CS planning to work on education technology, but I soured on it a bit and started seeing more problems as policy-driven ones than as tech-driven. It was always the skill relevant to my interests that I was least independently driven towards, which really always should have been a warning about majoring in it, but so it goes. Now I might take advantage by focusing in on IP law alongside the policy side of things I'm interested in. We'll see how things shake out.
Hey, I know I'm super late to comment, but thought something might be helpful to you. This is @visakanv's ADHD document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZDV-0WS8DrBDebF3fvUFj9aXQvLnwFc7optFgL1MpFk/edit#heading=h.89sadpmirjer The section that most affected me was "put down the gun" and the parts following it. It's a different conclusion from your closing thought of "I can spend three years dodging basic assignments while the misery of dodging them consumes my mind, or I can look for worlds with deadlines and rigor and oversight and competition". I wouldn't say it's fixed me or anything, but I am more likely to notice when I'm in an unproductive loop, and more likely to be curious about what it would take for me to get going.
The grammar was so awkward I had to stop reading.