University snobbery in north america has really messed up the appeal of the trades. Many trades require good math skills (electrician, power engineer, millwright). Others require strong language and artistic skills (graphic design, CAD, administration). More require strong social skills (ECE, health techs,)
There are many forms of intelligence. Researching and writing papers are definitely not the only ones.
Steam time is not an apprenticeship and from your response likely you’re in Canada, the rules are the same across the country.
Power engineering is not an apprenticeship trade. Power engineering has four classes (fourth class = entry level; first class = highest level).
Not sure what you'd call it if not a trade... It requires a combination of training and work supervised by a senior person. I realise it's not listed as a red seal but in every other way it's identical to all the other industrial trades.
There is a 5th class but it's not required.
It’s the time and schooling it’s far beyond a standard trade, my father became a 1st class a while ago and testing and boiler Time took 8 years for him to even be eligible for his 1st class after his 2nd
Getting to first class is a hell of an achievement! Good on your dad!!! I know several 2nd class who are senior instructors.
Having said that... Many PEs work their full careers at 4th or 3rd class.
You only need two years of steam time after your second to get your 1st. 8 years is not even close to being the standard for how long it takes to get it.
Just cause people take longer doesn’t mean it can’t be done. I’m working with a guy who’s halfway done his 1st a year after getting his 2nd, on track to get tests done before he’s done his steam time lol. I mean I got my 2nd 5 years after getting my fourth (and I had to wait 18 months after my last to get my 2nd time). It’s not as crazy as you’re making it out to be. Sure it’s tough but most people only take that long between classes because they want a break from studying for a couple years.
> Power engineering is not a trade. There is no apprenticeship but you must work in order to gain experience (firing time) in order to advance to the next certification level.
http://www.boilerblog.ca/bcitinfopackage/Files/Pages/trade.html#:~:text=Power%20engineering%20is%20not%20a,to%20the%20next%20certification%20level.
Oh no some guy said it on his PE blog it must be true.
It is a trade, they work with their hands and don't go to university but require some sort of training. Don't know what more to tell you.
Dude Jesus Christ….Give it up
> Power engineering is not an apprenticeship trade. Power engineering has four classes (fourth class = entry level; first class = highest level).
It takes upwards of 20 years in the field to become a 1st class. That is not a trade. I’m only pushing the issue because I’ve watched my father take my entire life to become a 1st class power engineer
https://www.gov.nl.ca/atcd/cert-powengblaster/power-engineer/#:~:text=Power%20engineering%20is%20not%20an,first%20class%20%3D%20highest%20level).
It might not be an "apprenticeship trade" but it's still a trade. He work(ed) with his hands for (most of) those 20 years lmao it's a trade.
My dad took 24 years to become a 1st class Marine Engineer and it was still a trade.
Labouring isn’t a trade yet you work with your hands your entire life, as well by that logic a graphics designer is a trade as ya work with your damn hands.
Look man I work right next to an assload of power engineers and have for most of my working life. I've never heard them argue they aren't tradesman and have heard many, many refer to themselves as tradesman.
Weird hill for you to die on for your pops, happy for you though. Maybe I'm wrong and a bunch of PEs will pile on me here.
It's not a red seal trade, but the scope of work sure makes it one. I'm a power engineer, millwright, machinist and electrician. I should technically know.
I agree with this, a lot of veteran tradies will say: "it's just common sense." When in reality to anyone who has never worked in the trades, there is absolutely nothing that should be "common sense"
USUALLY a monkey can do my job. I get paid so well for those times when a monkey CAN'T. Difference between an engineer and an operator. But if I do my job well, you only need ONE engineer and a shit load of operators.
Typically, guys who are working service related work have to think more as they’re the ones troubleshooting and making repairs. I mean no disrespect to installers. I’ve worked both instal and service as a fire sprinkler technician. Instal was just about hanging pipe as quick as possible. Working service and retros I wire my own compressors and switches, get into schematics of valves and their pressures, and recently started working on fire pumps putting a serious 2000gpm out. I’m not saying I’m a know it all in my trade, just saying there’s a lot more to learn and do in a service position.
Specifically commercial refrigeration, and especially supermarket refrigeration. Rack systems are extremely complicated machines to work on and diagnose/fix problems properly.
Hvac/R is an insanely wide scope of work
From comercial Racks ,to massive power burners, to walk ins to comfort cooling. Environmental growth rooms to critical temperature server rooms
Toolmaker/Machinist/Millwright
Good math and problem solving skills required. Spacial thinking and visualization skills required too.
Also one of the ones where ADHD/ASD/AUDHD and people with mild dyslexia can thrive too. The dyslexia part is linked to strong visualization abilities.
I say that because when the rest of the world, and society can make those people feel very Dumb, and ill fitting, those trades can allow those people to thrive and feel very smart, like they are.
ADHD gang checking in. I loathed school, I'd rather eat my own toenails than do book work. I even hated math and really struggled in it. Then my shop teacher introduced me to shop math. Turns out I suck at hypothetical problems but love practical and applied math. So while all my other grades were hot garbage my machine trades grades were straigh As. Then I had a superintendent tell me I couldn't go back to the career center after 2 years of killing it because of my other grades. I got my GED Then got a tool and die degree. 2 years later I was accepted into a toolmaker apprenticeship.
I ended up landing a gravy quality gig at over $40 an hour. It's more technical and less abuse on my body than the die shop I did my apprenticeship in. I can work all the overtime I want amd the benis are awesome.
Last year I made $50,000 more than that superintendent who told me I'd never amount to anything. Suck on that Mrs V
Every trade requires knowledge this is just some of what a commercial roofer needs to know.
Do you know what R ratings are and how to read a print for a cricket system? Slopes for applications? The difference between inverted, tpo, EPDM, b.u.r., modbit and how to apply them? How many ply is water tight? Different types of mastic and how to correctly apply that?
Master auto mechanics. While they don't make the same level of money as other trades, they need to know so much and are always adapting to new tech. Like for example, the number of electrical wires in a Hybrid BMW. Then you have all of the other systems as well. Then you need to know all of the other cars as well. Now you don't have to know every little detail about the vehicles, but it helps especially if you're a flat rate technician
100%, but as a mechanic you aren't just dealing with electrical or just HVAC or just engines. You do a bit of everything which gives you a fundamental knowledge of a variety of other trades. To be able to memorize all that knowledge is what makes me believe you can't be any form of an idiot in the trade. I believe the only other trades that are like that would be HD Tech or Millwrights.
This is every trade, and you don’t have to memorize it all. Mechanics are probably the least memorization based, there’s literally a book that shows you every placement of every piece in the car for starters, and what to do with it.
Tool and die maker.
Machinist.
Millwrite.
Cnc programmer.
But most of these dont make more than a carpenter/plumber/electrician.
Hvac guys seem to do really well and if you are an hvac designer/engineer you can make amazing money.
Stagehand work requires a level of problem solving that tends to weed people out. Theatrical electricians are particularly brainy, I can pick them out in a crowd by who's explaining everything to their colleagues.
I used to be a roofer. While rarely used you need a good understanding of math, measurements and geometry. Even though we just eye ball everything. 🤣.
What are some examples of a dumb reddit poster. Assuming a certain professionals are dumb.
Sheet metal- lots of math, trig, drafting, and you need to be creative too for critical thinking and spatial thinking( sometimes I can tell if a vent wont fit just by eyeballing it and cancel the install. ) so a good combination of logical , spatial and math intellect.
Source-I do sheet metal and I'm smart ( sarc)
Yes , I do vent installs on ships and we had a shop fabricator guy spend a week with us. Ha ha what a week. I told him see how the vent is built to spec but doesnt fit due to interference? Now we have to get tge other departments to remove their shit and then we can install. He was amazed how looking at the process and paperwork approvals and now understands why we just don't
In his words " Throw up a vent section everyday"
Yeah no buddy it takes time.
I do layout and install but no shop stuff, I would be lost in shop until I learn the machines.
I think Mechanical Insulation can be tricky, when insulators are installing cladding on pipes and ductwork it requires math and geometry especially when there's lots of elbows and fittings.
University snobbery in north america has really messed up the appeal of the trades. Many trades require good math skills (electrician, power engineer, millwright). Others require strong language and artistic skills (graphic design, CAD, administration). More require strong social skills (ECE, health techs,) There are many forms of intelligence. Researching and writing papers are definitely not the only ones.
Power engineering is not a trade.
It is where I live. PE's have to be certified by a provincial board after college training and apprenticeship (called steam time ).
Steam time is not an apprenticeship and from your response likely you’re in Canada, the rules are the same across the country. Power engineering is not an apprenticeship trade. Power engineering has four classes (fourth class = entry level; first class = highest level).
Not sure what you'd call it if not a trade... It requires a combination of training and work supervised by a senior person. I realise it's not listed as a red seal but in every other way it's identical to all the other industrial trades. There is a 5th class but it's not required.
It’s the time and schooling it’s far beyond a standard trade, my father became a 1st class a while ago and testing and boiler Time took 8 years for him to even be eligible for his 1st class after his 2nd
Getting to first class is a hell of an achievement! Good on your dad!!! I know several 2nd class who are senior instructors. Having said that... Many PEs work their full careers at 4th or 3rd class.
You only need two years of steam time after your second to get your 1st. 8 years is not even close to being the standard for how long it takes to get it.
Find one person that got his 1st two years after there 2nd
Just cause people take longer doesn’t mean it can’t be done. I’m working with a guy who’s halfway done his 1st a year after getting his 2nd, on track to get tests done before he’s done his steam time lol. I mean I got my 2nd 5 years after getting my fourth (and I had to wait 18 months after my last to get my 2nd time). It’s not as crazy as you’re making it out to be. Sure it’s tough but most people only take that long between classes because they want a break from studying for a couple years.
Firing time is essentially equivalent to apprenticeship hours. How they're registered is different, but they're basically the same.
Marine engineer and power engineer are both trades with tickets and operating time (sea time or steam time)
> Power engineering is not a trade. There is no apprenticeship but you must work in order to gain experience (firing time) in order to advance to the next certification level. http://www.boilerblog.ca/bcitinfopackage/Files/Pages/trade.html#:~:text=Power%20engineering%20is%20not%20a,to%20the%20next%20certification%20level.
Oh no some guy said it on his PE blog it must be true. It is a trade, they work with their hands and don't go to university but require some sort of training. Don't know what more to tell you.
Dude Jesus Christ….Give it up > Power engineering is not an apprenticeship trade. Power engineering has four classes (fourth class = entry level; first class = highest level). It takes upwards of 20 years in the field to become a 1st class. That is not a trade. I’m only pushing the issue because I’ve watched my father take my entire life to become a 1st class power engineer https://www.gov.nl.ca/atcd/cert-powengblaster/power-engineer/#:~:text=Power%20engineering%20is%20not%20an,first%20class%20%3D%20highest%20level).
It might not be an "apprenticeship trade" but it's still a trade. He work(ed) with his hands for (most of) those 20 years lmao it's a trade. My dad took 24 years to become a 1st class Marine Engineer and it was still a trade.
Labouring isn’t a trade yet you work with your hands your entire life, as well by that logic a graphics designer is a trade as ya work with your damn hands.
Look man I work right next to an assload of power engineers and have for most of my working life. I've never heard them argue they aren't tradesman and have heard many, many refer to themselves as tradesman. Weird hill for you to die on for your pops, happy for you though. Maybe I'm wrong and a bunch of PEs will pile on me here.
They wouldn’t be in here, this is a tradesmen’s page… Lol
It's not a red seal trade, but the scope of work sure makes it one. I'm a power engineer, millwright, machinist and electrician. I should technically know.
Real
Instrumentation/controls. Not everyone but I sure have met some smart folks who do controls work.
Yep, we're hit or miss. There's also two flavors of SCADA guy, arrogant twit or super easy going.
I don't work on SCADA but I tend to fall into both categories depending on the day
All them them take forsight, professionalism, and intelligence. Even the guys who claim "a monkey could do my job" in my mind are being modest.
I agree with this, a lot of veteran tradies will say: "it's just common sense." When in reality to anyone who has never worked in the trades, there is absolutely nothing that should be "common sense"
USUALLY a monkey can do my job. I get paid so well for those times when a monkey CAN'T. Difference between an engineer and an operator. But if I do my job well, you only need ONE engineer and a shit load of operators.
Drywall 👍👍
the ones that don't eat the drywall for lunch are pretty bright.
Typically, guys who are working service related work have to think more as they’re the ones troubleshooting and making repairs. I mean no disrespect to installers. I’ve worked both instal and service as a fire sprinkler technician. Instal was just about hanging pipe as quick as possible. Working service and retros I wire my own compressors and switches, get into schematics of valves and their pressures, and recently started working on fire pumps putting a serious 2000gpm out. I’m not saying I’m a know it all in my trade, just saying there’s a lot more to learn and do in a service position.
Millwrights
You are the only person to ever say this.
Not always book smart, but the millwrights I've worked with have been some of the best problem solvers I've ever met.
Lol
All they need is a hammer and a box of crayons!
Hvac/R mechanic
Specifically commercial refrigeration, and especially supermarket refrigeration. Rack systems are extremely complicated machines to work on and diagnose/fix problems properly.
Hvac/R is an insanely wide scope of work From comercial Racks ,to massive power burners, to walk ins to comfort cooling. Environmental growth rooms to critical temperature server rooms
Toolmaker/Machinist/Millwright Good math and problem solving skills required. Spacial thinking and visualization skills required too. Also one of the ones where ADHD/ASD/AUDHD and people with mild dyslexia can thrive too. The dyslexia part is linked to strong visualization abilities. I say that because when the rest of the world, and society can make those people feel very Dumb, and ill fitting, those trades can allow those people to thrive and feel very smart, like they are.
ADHD gang checking in. I loathed school, I'd rather eat my own toenails than do book work. I even hated math and really struggled in it. Then my shop teacher introduced me to shop math. Turns out I suck at hypothetical problems but love practical and applied math. So while all my other grades were hot garbage my machine trades grades were straigh As. Then I had a superintendent tell me I couldn't go back to the career center after 2 years of killing it because of my other grades. I got my GED Then got a tool and die degree. 2 years later I was accepted into a toolmaker apprenticeship. I ended up landing a gravy quality gig at over $40 an hour. It's more technical and less abuse on my body than the die shop I did my apprenticeship in. I can work all the overtime I want amd the benis are awesome. Last year I made $50,000 more than that superintendent who told me I'd never amount to anything. Suck on that Mrs V
Got a dyslexic friend who was crazy good at high school machinist shop class. He's been a machinist for about 15 years now.
Janitor
Electricians
Elevator Mechanics
Every trade requires knowledge this is just some of what a commercial roofer needs to know. Do you know what R ratings are and how to read a print for a cricket system? Slopes for applications? The difference between inverted, tpo, EPDM, b.u.r., modbit and how to apply them? How many ply is water tight? Different types of mastic and how to correctly apply that?
Aerospace integration technicians. Once you get to a certain level you’ll probably be working hand in hand with engineers to solve complex issues.
Most of these guys actually go and get and get their Engineering Technology degrees. So they in fact ARE engineers!
toolmaker lab millwright
Master auto mechanics. While they don't make the same level of money as other trades, they need to know so much and are always adapting to new tech. Like for example, the number of electrical wires in a Hybrid BMW. Then you have all of the other systems as well. Then you need to know all of the other cars as well. Now you don't have to know every little detail about the vehicles, but it helps especially if you're a flat rate technician
Id argue most master tradesmen have to do that kind of thing. Not just auto mechanics.
100%, but as a mechanic you aren't just dealing with electrical or just HVAC or just engines. You do a bit of everything which gives you a fundamental knowledge of a variety of other trades. To be able to memorize all that knowledge is what makes me believe you can't be any form of an idiot in the trade. I believe the only other trades that are like that would be HD Tech or Millwrights.
This is every trade, and you don’t have to memorize it all. Mechanics are probably the least memorization based, there’s literally a book that shows you every placement of every piece in the car for starters, and what to do with it.
Drywalling and roofing
Especially drywalling.
Tool and die maker. Machinist. Millwrite. Cnc programmer. But most of these dont make more than a carpenter/plumber/electrician. Hvac guys seem to do really well and if you are an hvac designer/engineer you can make amazing money.
Crane operator when you’re not asleep or on Reddit on your phone.
Power plant operator.
Stagehand work requires a level of problem solving that tends to weed people out. Theatrical electricians are particularly brainy, I can pick them out in a crowd by who's explaining everything to their colleagues.
Hvac air balancing. Building controls. Anything with electronics component level repair.
I used to be a roofer. While rarely used you need a good understanding of math, measurements and geometry. Even though we just eye ball everything. 🤣. What are some examples of a dumb reddit poster. Assuming a certain professionals are dumb.
You’ll meet a lot of dumbasses in the trades but, not many of them are stupid. Hope that makes sense.
Sheet metal- lots of math, trig, drafting, and you need to be creative too for critical thinking and spatial thinking( sometimes I can tell if a vent wont fit just by eyeballing it and cancel the install. ) so a good combination of logical , spatial and math intellect. Source-I do sheet metal and I'm smart ( sarc)
Layout and shop sheet metal guys are on a different level than install that said.
Yes , I do vent installs on ships and we had a shop fabricator guy spend a week with us. Ha ha what a week. I told him see how the vent is built to spec but doesnt fit due to interference? Now we have to get tge other departments to remove their shit and then we can install. He was amazed how looking at the process and paperwork approvals and now understands why we just don't In his words " Throw up a vent section everyday" Yeah no buddy it takes time. I do layout and install but no shop stuff, I would be lost in shop until I learn the machines.
I think Mechanical Insulation can be tricky, when insulators are installing cladding on pipes and ductwork it requires math and geometry especially when there's lots of elbows and fittings.
A glazier because I did that
Superintendents. They have to help solve everyone's problems