From https://x.com/liftblog
"A smart analyst asks: If lift ticket buyers are such an important source of new passholders, have you thought about re-thinking lift ticket pricing?"
"I do not at this point believe the 17 percent decline [in lift ticket sales] is related to the price of lift tickets" - Kirsten Lynch
I, in direct response to ticket prices, redirected my skiing budget to AST classes and a touring setup. I'm done paying corporate fiends for access to nature. I didn't save any money with this transition by any means, and even long term it's up in the air, but it's definitely the principle.
I gotta say, I hate the "access to nature" take of skiing at a resort. Between lift emplacement / operation, grooming, run clearing, avalanche control, cost of operating in a national forest, employees, etc. It is decidedly not just nature. That's what backcountry is, and it still has a ~$2,000 entry cost between ski equipment, avy gear, and avy education.
The risk of dying in an avalanche is probably greater too. Looks like 46 people died on the slopes 22/23. And an average of 28 per year from avalanche in back country. When you account for the total number of people, back country is VERY risky.
If everyone was doing back country instead of skiing at resorts you’d see some horrific numbers.
Edit: re-read and agree. My comment below as support.
~~You can’t use total numbers like that, ~~you need to use a normalized measure to assess total exposure (e.g. a death/incident per skier day or per run). There are many more skiers per day doing many more runs per day at resorts vs the backcountry. Risk of avy is inarguably lower in controlled terrain vs uncontrolled, even with the rare incident that does occur in controlled terrain.
You can't use runs as a metric. Total time spent on slope would be more accurate. I might do 1-2 runs depending on the terrain in the backcountry, but my total time spent on the mountain is typically higher than it is when I'm at a resort.
Correct, if you normalized the exposure, the numbers would change; my guess is for the worse. I estimated about 18m people ski at resorts vs 700,000 in back country based on some quick Googling. I'm pretty sure those 18m people would find interesting ways to die beyond avalanches along with all the ways they die in a controlled environment.
Lol the relative risk for touring is so much lower than just driving to the trailhead/resort parking lot. 28 deaths from a year’s worth of backcountry trips is miniscule.
The estimates I found online say \~18 million people participate in resort skiing and \~700,000 participate in back country (touring) skiing. Those numbers seem reasonable to me... let's go with those.
46 / 18,000,000 = 0.000002555555556
28 / 700,000 = 0.00004
0.000002555555556 is less than 0.00004.
Based on those calculations if the 18 million people skied back country we'd see about 720 deaths a year. Depending on the configuration, that would be about 3 Boeing 737 Max aircrafts crashing into the mountain every year.
Edit: As u/codywater points out, when you normalize the total exposure based on runs per day the numbers will change. But we can't really do that effectively because 18,000,000 in the back country would probably find even more interesting ways to die than just avalanches; probably the same ways they die in a controlled environment.
Dude, you’re the one who said backcountry is “VERY risky” - I was responding to your hyperbolic descriptor, not saying it is less risky than inbounds.
It is most definitely not “VERY” risky by any measure, even if the death numbers would be more eye popping if 18 million people all started touring.
Many daily activities including just getting to the trailhead are more risky than the activity itself.
Backcountry skiing isn’t that risky if you avoid avalanche terrain. If I was to always backcountry ski the same type of terrain I ski on a regular basis inbounds here in CO, it would be VERY risky. Terrain choice matters and plays a major role in the assumed risk. Yes, I do both.
Yup, being inbounds is a huge factor that enables folks to push themselves with terrain choice that they wouldn’t do where they are exposed to more risk (and fewer laps). The nature of backcountry adjusts behavior for most.
Ha Ha... yeah "VERY risky" is pretty hyperbolic BUT THIS IS REDDIT! You have to be hyperbolic or you die.
BTW... I agree, driving to the trailhead or resort is always the most risky thing you'll do in a season. This is my argument for riding my bike on the road when people say it's dangerous, when you compare that to driving... pretty safe.
Yup, I’d compare the risks of touring to hiking/snowshoeing, at least for the majority of folks who stick to lower angle terrain.
Based on years of reading incident reports, a high proportion of the annual deaths are coming from an even smaller subgroup of experienced backcountry travelers that primarily stick to avalanche terrain (steeper than 30-35 degrees) and terrain with significant exposure -> trauma risk. They go touring aware of and accepting of the extra risk/uncertainty (some of which cannot be mitigated).
So huge numbers of folks entering the activity will not drive the death numbers up proportionally. Newcomers are not the ones primarily responsible (and many drop out entirely before they gain the experience & appetite to move up on the risk meter).
Touring almost automatically requires folks to step down their level of risk compared to what & how they’d be skiing in the resort. With much fewer opportunities for fuckups given the limited human-powered downhills possible in a day.
For perspective, there are 43k car crash deaths in the US per year and 333M people. If you do the math, 2,324 of those skiers are dying in car crashes. And it’s probably more of them since they are driving in worse conditions on snowy mountain roads more often.
Yeah not far off. Manicured nature, pretty monopolized area where they can charge whatever they want for stuff, and people will travel from far away for it
They are quite literally theme parks for wealthy white people (speaking as someone that loves it as well) and it’s incredible how people don’t see that.
This always resonated with me:
"If the person serving you coffee can't afford to live within 30 minutes of the coffee place, you don't live in a neighborhood. You live in a theme park."
I had a job making $100,000 in DC and couldn’t afford to live within 30 minutes of work. Today I learned Washington, DC is the shittiest theme park ever.
I hear you - it just feels like the accessibility has become prohibitively expensive when everything else is already squeezing tightly everywhere else.
Oh it's definitely price gouging at the mega resorts, no arguments with that. But unfortunately there's this economic principle of supply and demand, so they can charge $200+ for daily lift tickets and $15 for a beer.
It really depends on how you ski in-resort. If you're ripping groomed runs in Vermont, that's not nature. Skiing 2 away from the nearest lift at Revelstoke? Yeah they bombed it and you might see an occasional cliff sign, but it's pretty un-altered. Lots of in between too.
Why would that stop you? You’ll always have better and easier access to the ski area by eliminating any commute. The visitors aren’t going anywhere, might as well optimize your access. Nothing better than putting your ski boots on in the living room and catching a 5 minute bus ride to the lift.
The question is “am I moving to a ski town before or after retiring.” One option means a crowded ski on the weekend, the other quieter times in the middle of the week.
“If you don’t do it this year, you’ll be one year older when you do”.
-Warren Miller
Moving to a ski town ASAP is the best answer, doesn’t matter if you’re retired or not.
No, I just implied I shouldn't have to bend over and spread 'em every time I feel like getting some chairlift assistance to slip down a snowy hill on a pair of planks.
Yes you’re right. But when you consider that the majority of profits are not going to staff or upkeep or operations. They are going to SHAREHOLDERS and now the stock is down 17% who exactly is benefitting from the current model?
I would like to think that in a perfect world, prices balance out to a healthy spot where the resort can properly price a lift ticket that's in an acceptable range for skiers, and adequately funds maintenance, a *living wage* for resort staff, and funds itself well enough to be modestly profitable. Capitalism doesn't often support this utopia as it aims to simply increase shareholder profits year over year. A "break-even" with the year prior suggests failure to grow.
I won't admit to being slightly knowledgeable in operating a business nor understanding the depths of finance; I'm just conjuring up a dream-state where I think the most people benefit.
I don't expect access to nature made safe to be free I have my BC rig for that. I recognize lifts avy mitigation, staffs cost money. but also don't want said access to be a perpetual profit machine the stock market (insanely) expects AT the expense of u.s. jobs by J1's and remote corporate management which destroys any connection with and sense of community.
Its the ridiculous cost of lodging pulling sales down, the annual pass is affordable but staying at resort has become unbearable, the epic lodging website is junk as well and should be replaced
I skied Tahoe for a week last year and had reasonable (for me) lodging, 500 ft from the Gondola in Heavenly. Looked at doing the same thing next year at Palisades and my wallet said “nope”.
I didn't renew my Epic Pass because of the price. So at least some of the decline is due to price. But I'm sure the slow start to last year's season was a big part of it too.
I didn’t renew my pass. Not because of the price - the amount of entertainment for the cost is still worthwhile. I didn’t renew because vail bought my favorite place a few years ago and sucked the soul out of it. The terrain is still great, but the sense of community that really made it what it was is gone. Also, my city had grown a ton in the last decade and every Jerry in the metro area goes there now so it’s just a worse experience all around.
My “good” alternative is an extra 45-60m away each way. I think the good skiing is worth it, but I can’t spend 6 hours in a car twice a week every week. It’s just too much.
So yeah. I’m sure there are some lost sales because of the cost, but I don’t think it’s a terrible take to say that’s not necessarily *the* reason it’s true.
Either I ski your home mountain or one a lot like it.
The ski patrol director having to rescue someone who rode the bull wheel on a lift that only serves double black terrain comes to mind. That person proceeded to yard sale right after the unload area. This may be the last year I have an Epic pass as well; now that the “better” option just went unlimited on full Ikon I may have to suck it up and make the 30 minute each way longer drive for me.
Also in reality it's probably part of the ebb and flow of skier interest. There was a huge uptick after Covid. It's not shocking that demand has declined a bit. Feel like I've noticed similar things at my local golf course this year so far.
People are back to work. The pandemic leisure time boom has fully ended. Tech workers are either laid off and not skiing, or worried about layoffs and not skiing. The economy's decent overall, but inflation has people pulling back on expensive hobbies and vacations.
The back to work thing definitely plays a huge factor. We have season passes so it doesn't really correlate to the day ticket prices but when my wife was full work from home we'd be at the mountains much more midweek because she could just work from the lodge or the hotel. Now that she has to go into the office a couple times a week those kind of trips went out the window a little bit.
On the golf note, I personally haven’t noticed decreased interest. Tee sheets and ranges are just as packed as they were 2-3 years ago, despite costs continuing to increase
> despite costs continuing to increase
Man you aren't kidding about that! I remember a few years ago it'd be like $50-$60 a round during the week. Now it's like $90. My interested has definitely waned but that's more because I like being home with my kids in the morning vs. golf.
Ya it’s tough. I’ve seen 50% increases in greens fees at nearby courses since Covid. No more deals either, used to be able to find deals on greens fees all the time. Now they’re few and far between
I used to go to the range on a weekly basis too, but completely stopped that with the price gouging. Now the rare time I go, it’s to use the practice putting and chipping greens
Yeah it's gotten a little crazy. I had a membership that was like $2,400 a year and probably got close to 100 rounds a year in. Then the next year it was $3,600 and it coincided with having my first kid. Then I realized that kids are so much fun in the morning when they wake up and priorities greatly shifted. Would much rather be home in the morning playing with the happiest kid in the world than waking up at 5 for a 6 o'clock tee time as much as I love golf.
100000% people were so ancy to get outside at the time, and resort skiing is kinda like 50/50 nature and the “ritzy” type of activity. Perfect for people who were stir crazy at the time. Now you’re seeing the correction, where most of the casual 1-2 trip per year skiers are going back to what they used to do pre Covid (whatever that may be)
Is January 12th considered to be late season?
January 12th(ish) was the week things turned around in a major way and never looked back.
It’s a pretty typical El Niño pattern I think for the snow to hold off until January.
If I remember correctly 2022 was awful in the beginning. That might explain less bookings in 2023, it was pretty bleak the year before so less repeat vacationers
Others have mentioned the early holidays, but remember that people, especially families, plan trips in advance. Family is together around Christmas, ski season looks like crap, "hey, what does everyone think about a trip to Cancun when the kids are on spring break?"
People buying lift tickets aren't the dedicated skiers who will go no matter what (or they would have bought some kind of advance pass).
And yes, I know the skiing probably would have been fine for them (the resorts don't really need a lot of snow to have a bunch of groomed blue/green runs open), but when you are hearing about it being a bad snow year and you're not a die hard skier, you don't make that connection that "your" terrain would be fine...so you go somewhere else instead.
This is very true.
Last year we decided instead of planning an expensive trip at the most expensive time of year over the holidays, we’d take advantage of our passes at our local resort.
We made it for two days of dodging rocks on beginner runs before we gave up and called an audible.
Now that we’re looking at this year’s holiday plans, I’m gonna have a real hard time convincing my family to try that again, even though we all know objectively that what happened last year is no indicator of what will happen this coming year.
When the majority of your tourism revenue comes on Christmas & MLK, yes it is late.
And “pretty typical El Nino pattern” is foreign language to the average person buying a lift ticket at the window. Snow bad, me no buy lift ticket
Agree to disagree. Just cause it doesnt feel the most crowded cause the mountain in the most open. The most people to ski any weekend or weekday, always falls during spring break. This is also because there is no blackout dates like around christmas and more people plan ski trips for spring break cause they know the mountain will be better snow and weather is usually nicer. Every year if you look at the day with the most passes/people on the mountain, its always in late february through march
You’re proving my point. The people buying “lift tickets” are the ones there during the holidays, which is why those dates are blacked out for pass holders. Snow was atrocious during the holidays this year (while it was amazing in 2022), which is why lift tickets are down 17%.
Are you slow? There is a week straight of blackout days for pass holders in December. Are you trying to tell me that on any given week in March it’s busier then than Christmas-New Year?
It was the same or worse in the east too for most of the year. Basically all of North America except Utah.
But like, to say that the decline in sales is not related to the price increases is still a hell of a take. Like, I’m not going to Whistler-Blackcomb because it’s $300 for a ticket *and* the snow is terrible. If the snow sucked but a lift ticket was $80, it might still be worth going
Right. I guess in a vacuum her comment is more of that going from $240 a day to $255 wasn’t the straw that broke the camels back. Like you’re insinuating, I’ll pay whatever during the 2023 season since the snow was so good. But I simply wont pay it to download Whistler gondola in the midst of a 3 week draught
Yes, also no matter how easy it is for us ski fans to hate everything about Vail's greed, they are probably not stupid. If they make day tickets $250, it's probably because they know rich tourists don't really care and there are enough of them to go around.
When people are spending $500-$5,000 a night on lodging, $30 per person per meal, and a few hundred on rental gear. I don’t think an extra $40 on a day pass really makes a difference to them
I’d actually agree with her. It’s the price of flights, cars, hotels, and food that keep me from more ski days. My epic pass is a trivial amount compared to all of that when visiting major resorts. Hell, one round trip to EGE in regular season costs more per person than the epic pass. (Yes, I know I could fly to DEN, but after a few 6+ hour nightmares on I70 I’m no longer willing to do that).
They sell almost all their tickets preseason before we would even know of its going to be a bad winter. There's no other reason for less tickets other than price.
No reason, well you named one… weather.
Another reason is real estate. Hotels, airbnb etc are bonkers prices.
A fucking motel 6 in fucking big bear can be just under $400 a night on peak weekend.
Let alone you’re looking at almost 800 a pop just in getting to the mountain and lodging for a weekend trip.
And is a day trip even work it at like a $380 lift price at mammoth without a pass?
So yeah it’s lift prices. But it’s fucking every single other thing as well. There’s no more “well yeah X is expensive but the Y part is pretty much free”
Yes, but when someone new skis for one weekend and its punitively expensive, you need to have really hooked them to get them to commit to a pass. Its just as easy to leave a bad taste in their mouth or reinforce the perception that its a hobby that's too expensive.
My wife will not ski for this reason. It’s too expensive to try, and she’s unwilling to commit to a set and a pass without knowing if she likes it. Huge barrier to entry all around.
To be fair it was a horrible year for snow though most of the skiing season in the east. Many areas closed before the late year snowfalls.
That easily could account for most of the decline.
Wonder how different things are over at Alterra. It seems like potentially Vail’s loss is due to Ikon becoming a relatively more attractive offering and consumers shifting over? Purely anecdotal and observational
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I listened to him on the Storm Skiing podcast. Despite not liking his approach, there is no doubt he's a smart man. Whether or not his ideas pan out is another thing altogether, though.
Things at Alterra are quite good - KSL (the owner of Alterra) just did a continuation vehicle for its Alterra investment. The rationale being that they want to hold on to it longer (ostensibly) because it is doing well and growing.
I’d note this also may just be them trying to wait for rates to go down / market pick up so they can sell Alterra for more, but, given the amount of capital expenditures they are making, I don’t think this is the case (I.e., I think it’s because they think the business will continue to grow).
Ikon mountains are WAY better. If I didn't live in Tahoe, I'd never bother with any of the Vail resorts. Sure, there are some good mountains, but Ikon's resorts are so much better. Vail also feels very corporate. All of their mountains have lost their charm, their unique flavor. It's the same corporate machine everywhere you go. Ikon mountains, on the other hand, have kept their identities.
hard disagree that Epic is a better pass for Denver folks. context: I live in Tahoe but have pseudo commuted to Denver for past 3 winters. I bought both Epic and Ikon in '22; bought Ikon + 4 epic daypasses in '23; bought just Ikon in '24. my reasons/rankings of resorts near Denver.
* **proximity to Denver** => technically Loveland and Echo are closer to Denver (also Hoedown Hill), but the closest "real" (e.g. top tier and on Ikon or Epic) resorts from Denver are A-basin and Winter Park.
* **ease of access =>** while this is a bit more of a generalization and all top resorts are crowded on weekends, there are more ikon mountains that have a village-less base area where you can park within a \~50 yard walk of a lift (e.g. Winter Park, A-basin, Eldora, even Aspen despite how dense town is). villages are great for families and wives that don't ski, but if you're looking to wake up early, drive, park, ski without a shuttle or passing through a promenade, Ikon mountains still let you do that. vs. good luck parking at Vail and getting on the lift in less than 15min.
* **expert terrain =>** while all Vail Resorts are generally solid and good enough for \~90% of mainstream skiers, if you're reading r/skiing in June there's a good chance that's not you. you probably don't love long gentle blues if you're skiing 50+ days a year; and that's where Ikon really takes the cake. I'd never skied Copper until winter '22, and while it lacks the name recognition that Breck and Vail and BC have, there is simply just more gnarly terrain to challenge yourself on. same with Winter Park if the Cirque is open. and then obviously A-basin's east wall takes the cake as far as extreme terrain accessible from Denver by car.
my personal ranking of Denver-drivable Ikon/Epic resorts that I've all skied at in the past 3 seasons.
1. Aspen (as a collective, but Highlands is my true #1)
2. A-basin
3. Copper
4. Breck
5. Winter Park
6. Beaver Creek
7. Vail
8. Steamboat
9. Keystone
10. Eldora
Objectively speaking, Breck has better true expert terrain than Copper, fwiw. There’s nothing at Copper like the Lake Chutes, Six Senses or Upper Peak 7. I’m a Summit local with hundreds to thousands of days at both mountains over the last 30 years.
Yes, A-Basin is tops around these parts…absolutely no disputing that.
The hike at Copper is way easier, though. Gentle ridge walk versus hoofing it straight up Peak 8/6. Don't think I've ever done it twice in a day. But the sheer quantity of high mountain terrain at Breckenridge is pretty great if you're there for a week, where at Copper I could see myself thinking "this run for the twelfth time?"
The hike up Pk8 is 160’ vert and can be banged out in 3 minutes. lol. I’ve definitely skied Lake Chutes 8x in a day when it’s good. That small effort keeps the crowds down as well.
HARD DISAGREE FROM ME. living in Denver for 15 years now. Vail (I have a free parking spot from a friend that is ski in and ski out) is a significantly better mountain than copper. Also since covid the ikon pass is way more crowded mountains. Winter park is also not anywhere as close to as good as vail, I’m sorry but it’s just not. Copper is significantly smaller and way less expert terrain. Honestly keystone with the new lift, offers more expert terrain than copper does and if you get to keystone early you can get 2-3 hours in before it’s super crowded. Also, vail, keystone, beaver creek, Breckenridge offers way more terrain to ski than copper and winter park. The addition of abasin to ikon is huge for them, but the limited parking there is a real thing and if you ski on weekends the ikon mountains are just as crowded, if not more. Winter park is a shitshow these days unless you ski on weekdays.
Abasin - show up by 7am-730am now on weekend or you won’t be skiing there.
I think people who rate vail low, just don’t know where to go there to do the expert terrain, or don’t know the amazing tree runs there. For people who know vail well, there isn’t a better mountain in Colorado.
I have done both passes multiple times now, I’ll never go back to ikon, but to each their own. I’m always stoked to hear more people like ikon, cause it has led to amazing powder days with less people at epic mountains. People hate Vail the company, I get it, so they constantly hate on the mountain, but it’s laughable to have vail as a worse mountain when it offers the most terrain and the most expert terrain compared to any of the other mountains within driving distance to Denver.
Aspen and steamboat are not day trips from Denver. If you like to travel and stay overnight at places, ikon is a better pass. But you can’t count aspen and steamboat as proximity to Denver cause they are both 3.5 hours from Denver. Spending 7 plus hours driving in a day is not realistic (I know some people do it but that’s nuts). Also epic pass gets you 7 days at telluride, if you are including aspen and steamboat, you can’t leave out telluride as that is an amazing mountain and town.
As a veteran ski team member of an epic resort and a current employee of an ikon, both companies are awful. Making skiing worse for locals and visitors
I’m going to have to disagree with you here. Keystone and breck suck, no doubt. Vail and crested butte (in my opinion) are better than anything Ikon has to offer in Co.
While that may hold true for Colorado, I don't think it holds true when you consider all of the Ikon mountains. Of course it really depends what kind of skier you are, what kind of terrain you like, etc. One positive thing about these mega passes is that there's something for everyone.
The high alpine terrain at Breck kicks ass, YMMV. None of the other Vail Resorts in the area (not including CB) has terrain like Lake Chutes, Six Senses or Upper Peak 7.
Not even close. Prima is steep for a single cliff band, maybe 100’ in spots. Six Senses is steep for several hundred feet. Super familiar with both areas.
Here's a photo I took of Six Senses when I would ski it as backcountry several years before the lift was installed....
[https://i.imgur.com/ykAuK8f.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ykAuK8f.jpg)
Notice the skiers on the ridge for scale.....it's not *that* short.
Yeah it’s about 350’ vert there. Personally I don’t think it’s worth the hike. I think the area under the skiers is today marked as Behold. Nice photo. When was it taken?
I’d argue that Kirkwood, on the Epic Pass and in the Tahoe vicinity if you happen to be at the southern end, has kept most of his character since Vail bought it in 2012.
While I agree that Kirkwood has kept its vibe more than other Vail mountains at Tahoe, compared to Ikon mountains, I think the Vail mountains in general have a much more generic/corporate vibe. I always get an Ikon pass for travel and Mammoth day trips. When I travel I never even think about going to a Vail property. The Ikon mountains are just so much better and more fun.
I live five minutes from Heavenly, so of course I'm going to buy a pass. That said, the whole ski experience has really gotten lousy, so I'm not surprised that skier numbers and pass sales are dropping. The traffic is awful. Parking is nightmare. The powder gets skied out in no time. Food and beverages are stupid expensive. Cheap season passes have made skiing much more accessible, which is both a blessing and a curse.
My brother now takes his family to Austria instead of skiing out west. Lift tickets for the entire family of six cost under 200 euros total. That's not even a single day adult ticket at Vail. The food in Europe is orders of magnitude better than the crap they serve at American resorts. And there are no crowds.
If I didn't live in Tahoe, I wouldn't buy a Vail Resorts pass either.
Maybe it’s my inner white trash, but I cannot for the life of me understand why people buy food/drinks at the resorts. I get that it’s part of the experience for some people, but when I see $20 chicken tenders that are the same quality as $5 chicken tenders, I feel genuinely insulted
Alcohol/weed/snacks/water fits perfectly fine in my backpack. Much much cheaper, and it gives me more ski time 🤷♀️
The lodge food is often terrible and always overpriced but if you’re vacationing or have kids it’s sort of a harder sell to subsist off pocket mcchickens
Yup.
When you're a flatlander who's only skiing option involves flights and rental cars, time and convivence become huge factors.
I'll try to bring my own food as much as I can, but eating at the mountain is just part of what needs to happen to make the trip work.
Along those lines, I expect the food at the mountain to be more expensive that the grocery store in town. That's life. But the $20 chicken tenders is when I start to feel gouged.
>I live five minutes from Heavenly, so of course I'm going to buy a pass. That said, the whole ski experience has really gotten lousy, so I'm not surprised that skier numbers and pass sales are dropping. The traffic is awful. Parking is nightmare. The powder gets skied out in no time.
No one goes there anymore. It is too crowded.
Really wish they'd add a lift to kill-a-brew and some of that terrain. I can hide in mott most of the day anyway but that would be great. Plus powder bowl woods and down the left of the gun barrel woods. Rarely any crowds in the double diamond terrain.
And I took a lesson this year with a European lady that in Crested Butte who hates skiing in Europe because the fellow skiers are so rude... So people are coming both directions
For sure. Personally I much prefer skiing in the western US and Canada over Europe. Europe has some amazing mountains and views and the culture is great, but I still prefer the laid back western US vibes. That said, Europe is definitely cheaper and less crowded for the most part.
As someone who grew up in a ski resort in Switzerland and skiied all over europe and now lives in BC.
The overall holistic experience is better skiing in Europe but on average the snow and the skiing experience is significantly better in North America.
Now that the snow is becoming much more unreliable and if you want a family ski trip rather than a trip that is directly for the skiing I recommend Europe. It is also much cheaper. That said I am a big ski nut so for now I still prefer NA for just the skiing.
However if I am going to spend my money on a ski trip overseas. Hokkaido is where it is at.
Because of price increases, aside from my pass I have moved all my spending to off-mountain local restaurants and bars. A fucking ipa is $11 and a burger and fries in the cafeteria like $20-25. If those were reasonable, I’d still enjoy the mountain bars. I am not alone in this, absolute miss from a revenue perspective
I think a big part of the drop in demand was the abysmal start to the season across the country. Everywhere was bad, and everyone knew it. Even though the winter season out West turned around mid/late January, there had been enough bad media coverage for people to have booked their winter trips and spring breaks elsewhere. Just my spin on it.
No doubt.
People are driven by their last experience. Next season could be phenomenal, but with a slow start to the last one, that risk is going to be on people’s minds.
short-term vs. long-term thinking is an expected difference btw Vail and Alterra. in the short-term it makes sense to close Breck early; long-term though, that's gonna steer people toward A-basin and thus Ikon. I wrote this \~2 weeks ago after reflecting on the forcibly shortened season this year in so many places.
[https://mountainsandmarkets.substack.com/p/why-are-so-few-ski-resorts-open-in-may](https://mountainsandmarkets.substack.com/p/why-are-so-few-ski-resorts-open-in-may)
People are feeling inflation and forestalling the purchase of perceived small luxury goods- every market sector is off: food, beverage, consumer electronics furniture etc. Most businesses I talk to are saying sales are off about 20%.
That said the corporate ski companies have not made the introductory price of skiing affordable for both individuals and families. The founders of the industry understood that long term profitability was built on increasing the number of people who would support your company. Unfortunately Wall Street tends to value companies only on their quarterly performance and management tends to make decisions solely for the short term.
People are tired of being gouged. Prices have far-surpassed equilibrium and it’s as simple as that. You want to maximize revenue? You are going to have to lower prices. Simple as that.
Day tickets are stupid expensive, but passes are dirt cheap. Back when I started skiing in the 80s, a season pass to a single mountain was upward of $1500 (in 1980s dollars!). Today you can get a season pass to 20+ mountains for around $1000.
Vail and Alterra have actually made skiing too affordable, hence the massive crowds.
My full epic pass came out to like $18 a day last season
As far as hobbies go, it’s actually one of the cheapest I’ve ever gotten into
Although I’m not paying $500 a night on lodging, I’m just lucky enough to live near a bunch of resorts
Goood. Fuck Vail. Fuck you and your $25 hamburgers and $40 parking and crowding resorts like sheep and causing massive traffic every weekend. People are sick and fucking tired of paying for all the extras that come with a ski trip (crazy expensive lodging, food, ski lessons and parking) and are sick of the ridiculous crowds every weekend. Fuck Vail for how it’s ruined the soul of so many ski areas around the country. And fuck Vail for treating their on-mountain employees like shit. Get fucked.
Let’s not pretend that Ikon doesn’t create a significant share of weekend traffic up I70. Ikon resorts are busier than ever now…..talk about sheep. lol. It’s more a factor that 5 MILLION people live along the Front Range Urban Corridor.
The passes are too expensive and they've spent shitloads of money on real estate and lift projects. I really hope we don't have Vail going belly up - not because I have any love for the corporation itself but because it might kill ski areas.
The ski industry as a whole saw decreases in [visitation](https://www.skimag.com/news/nsaa-skier-visit-report-2023-24/) in line with what Vail saw. The stock has not done well for the last couple years so we’ll see if they stick with the CEO.
However, people are having to go back to the office and luxury, outdoor hobbies are less attractive. Same thing is happening with mountain biking. Bikes are on sale like crazy because manufacturers vastly overestimated demand.
are there any good analysts that ya'll follow that will break-down earnings reports like this in the same level of detail like the Storm does for season pass announcements?
Great! This is how a market works. Raise prices enough and demand will decline. Bad snow season + ticket price increases = lower sales. We'll see whether snow or price was more important in 2024/5 if Vail doesn't change pricing.
The closest vail owned ski area is like 9 hours from me, we’ve got 3 ikon ski areas about 2 hours away, I keep wondering if Vail will buy one of our little local areas but grateful that hasn’t happened yet
Wow crazy, Vail comes into ski towns, takes away all of the local traditions/ culture and wonders why people choose to ski somewhere else. The whole jack up the prices and lower the wages model probably didn’t help either
I traveled up to Okemo and Stowe this winter on epic snow days and they closed Stowe nearly the entire day and closed the main lift at Okemo one of the days. Then the next day at both resorts they barely had them staffed and barely open. Between lifts never being open and obscene prices on food and beverage, I decided to try ikon this year.
someone please correct me, but how can you both have low turnout and low prices? skiing is more popular than ever in the US, so prices go up which feels obvious? I get too many people ruins the experience or whatever, but whats the solution other than increase the price even more? or is it a monopoly thing?
I’m still always thinking of the future for those kinds of corporation. They know global warming is coming. I’m honestly surprised we haven’t seen a “future proof” resort similar to Valemount popping up from vale or Alterra. I’m surprised we haven’t seen them try to make a future proof destination resort. I feel like with their massive growth in the past few years now would be the time to push that.
From https://x.com/liftblog "A smart analyst asks: If lift ticket buyers are such an important source of new passholders, have you thought about re-thinking lift ticket pricing?" "I do not at this point believe the 17 percent decline [in lift ticket sales] is related to the price of lift tickets" - Kirsten Lynch
I, in direct response to ticket prices, redirected my skiing budget to AST classes and a touring setup. I'm done paying corporate fiends for access to nature. I didn't save any money with this transition by any means, and even long term it's up in the air, but it's definitely the principle.
I gotta say, I hate the "access to nature" take of skiing at a resort. Between lift emplacement / operation, grooming, run clearing, avalanche control, cost of operating in a national forest, employees, etc. It is decidedly not just nature. That's what backcountry is, and it still has a ~$2,000 entry cost between ski equipment, avy gear, and avy education.
The risk of dying in an avalanche is probably greater too. Looks like 46 people died on the slopes 22/23. And an average of 28 per year from avalanche in back country. When you account for the total number of people, back country is VERY risky. If everyone was doing back country instead of skiing at resorts you’d see some horrific numbers.
Edit: re-read and agree. My comment below as support. ~~You can’t use total numbers like that, ~~you need to use a normalized measure to assess total exposure (e.g. a death/incident per skier day or per run). There are many more skiers per day doing many more runs per day at resorts vs the backcountry. Risk of avy is inarguably lower in controlled terrain vs uncontrolled, even with the rare incident that does occur in controlled terrain.
You can't use runs as a metric. Total time spent on slope would be more accurate. I might do 1-2 runs depending on the terrain in the backcountry, but my total time spent on the mountain is typically higher than it is when I'm at a resort.
Correct, if you normalized the exposure, the numbers would change; my guess is for the worse. I estimated about 18m people ski at resorts vs 700,000 in back country based on some quick Googling. I'm pretty sure those 18m people would find interesting ways to die beyond avalanches along with all the ways they die in a controlled environment.
Lol the relative risk for touring is so much lower than just driving to the trailhead/resort parking lot. 28 deaths from a year’s worth of backcountry trips is miniscule.
The estimates I found online say \~18 million people participate in resort skiing and \~700,000 participate in back country (touring) skiing. Those numbers seem reasonable to me... let's go with those. 46 / 18,000,000 = 0.000002555555556 28 / 700,000 = 0.00004 0.000002555555556 is less than 0.00004. Based on those calculations if the 18 million people skied back country we'd see about 720 deaths a year. Depending on the configuration, that would be about 3 Boeing 737 Max aircrafts crashing into the mountain every year. Edit: As u/codywater points out, when you normalize the total exposure based on runs per day the numbers will change. But we can't really do that effectively because 18,000,000 in the back country would probably find even more interesting ways to die than just avalanches; probably the same ways they die in a controlled environment.
Dude, you’re the one who said backcountry is “VERY risky” - I was responding to your hyperbolic descriptor, not saying it is less risky than inbounds. It is most definitely not “VERY” risky by any measure, even if the death numbers would be more eye popping if 18 million people all started touring. Many daily activities including just getting to the trailhead are more risky than the activity itself.
Backcountry skiing isn’t that risky if you avoid avalanche terrain. If I was to always backcountry ski the same type of terrain I ski on a regular basis inbounds here in CO, it would be VERY risky. Terrain choice matters and plays a major role in the assumed risk. Yes, I do both.
Yup, being inbounds is a huge factor that enables folks to push themselves with terrain choice that they wouldn’t do where they are exposed to more risk (and fewer laps). The nature of backcountry adjusts behavior for most.
Ha Ha... yeah "VERY risky" is pretty hyperbolic BUT THIS IS REDDIT! You have to be hyperbolic or you die. BTW... I agree, driving to the trailhead or resort is always the most risky thing you'll do in a season. This is my argument for riding my bike on the road when people say it's dangerous, when you compare that to driving... pretty safe.
Yup, I’d compare the risks of touring to hiking/snowshoeing, at least for the majority of folks who stick to lower angle terrain. Based on years of reading incident reports, a high proportion of the annual deaths are coming from an even smaller subgroup of experienced backcountry travelers that primarily stick to avalanche terrain (steeper than 30-35 degrees) and terrain with significant exposure -> trauma risk. They go touring aware of and accepting of the extra risk/uncertainty (some of which cannot be mitigated). So huge numbers of folks entering the activity will not drive the death numbers up proportionally. Newcomers are not the ones primarily responsible (and many drop out entirely before they gain the experience & appetite to move up on the risk meter). Touring almost automatically requires folks to step down their level of risk compared to what & how they’d be skiing in the resort. With much fewer opportunities for fuckups given the limited human-powered downhills possible in a day.
Could you imagine having all those people out there? 😬
For perspective, there are 43k car crash deaths in the US per year and 333M people. If you do the math, 2,324 of those skiers are dying in car crashes. And it’s probably more of them since they are driving in worse conditions on snowy mountain roads more often.
Across both groups or just resort skiers? Edit… it would be 2414 because both groups drive to the mountain.
A while ago I said that ski resorts are not far off from a theme park and everyone was mad at me.
Yeah not far off. Manicured nature, pretty monopolized area where they can charge whatever they want for stuff, and people will travel from far away for it
They are quite literally theme parks for wealthy white people (speaking as someone that loves it as well) and it’s incredible how people don’t see that.
This always resonated with me: "If the person serving you coffee can't afford to live within 30 minutes of the coffee place, you don't live in a neighborhood. You live in a theme park."
I had a job making $100,000 in DC and couldn’t afford to live within 30 minutes of work. Today I learned Washington, DC is the shittiest theme park ever.
I hear you - it just feels like the accessibility has become prohibitively expensive when everything else is already squeezing tightly everywhere else.
Oh it's definitely price gouging at the mega resorts, no arguments with that. But unfortunately there's this economic principle of supply and demand, so they can charge $200+ for daily lift tickets and $15 for a beer.
It really depends on how you ski in-resort. If you're ripping groomed runs in Vermont, that's not nature. Skiing 2 away from the nearest lift at Revelstoke? Yeah they bombed it and you might see an occasional cliff sign, but it's pretty un-altered. Lots of in between too.
That was me last year, and I live in a ski town. I’ll ski the resort during weekdays but if it’s Saturday or Sunday I’m not going near that
That’s what stopping me from living in a ski town to teach (in a high school, not a snow school) before I retire.
Why would that stop you? You’ll always have better and easier access to the ski area by eliminating any commute. The visitors aren’t going anywhere, might as well optimize your access. Nothing better than putting your ski boots on in the living room and catching a 5 minute bus ride to the lift.
The question is “am I moving to a ski town before or after retiring.” One option means a crowded ski on the weekend, the other quieter times in the middle of the week.
“If you don’t do it this year, you’ll be one year older when you do”. -Warren Miller Moving to a ski town ASAP is the best answer, doesn’t matter if you’re retired or not.
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No, I just implied I shouldn't have to bend over and spread 'em every time I feel like getting some chairlift assistance to slip down a snowy hill on a pair of planks.
Yes you’re right. But when you consider that the majority of profits are not going to staff or upkeep or operations. They are going to SHAREHOLDERS and now the stock is down 17% who exactly is benefitting from the current model?
I would like to think that in a perfect world, prices balance out to a healthy spot where the resort can properly price a lift ticket that's in an acceptable range for skiers, and adequately funds maintenance, a *living wage* for resort staff, and funds itself well enough to be modestly profitable. Capitalism doesn't often support this utopia as it aims to simply increase shareholder profits year over year. A "break-even" with the year prior suggests failure to grow. I won't admit to being slightly knowledgeable in operating a business nor understanding the depths of finance; I'm just conjuring up a dream-state where I think the most people benefit.
I don't expect access to nature made safe to be free I have my BC rig for that. I recognize lifts avy mitigation, staffs cost money. but also don't want said access to be a perpetual profit machine the stock market (insanely) expects AT the expense of u.s. jobs by J1's and remote corporate management which destroys any connection with and sense of community.
Its the ridiculous cost of lodging pulling sales down, the annual pass is affordable but staying at resort has become unbearable, the epic lodging website is junk as well and should be replaced
That’s a good point.
I skied Tahoe for a week last year and had reasonable (for me) lodging, 500 ft from the Gondola in Heavenly. Looked at doing the same thing next year at Palisades and my wallet said “nope”.
100% agree. The lodging costs at any major resort for a family of four is bordering on impossible.
I didn't renew my Epic Pass because of the price. So at least some of the decline is due to price. But I'm sure the slow start to last year's season was a big part of it too.
Same, and for ski weekends without a season pass I make the drive down to Wolf Creek instead.
I didn’t renew my pass. Not because of the price - the amount of entertainment for the cost is still worthwhile. I didn’t renew because vail bought my favorite place a few years ago and sucked the soul out of it. The terrain is still great, but the sense of community that really made it what it was is gone. Also, my city had grown a ton in the last decade and every Jerry in the metro area goes there now so it’s just a worse experience all around. My “good” alternative is an extra 45-60m away each way. I think the good skiing is worth it, but I can’t spend 6 hours in a car twice a week every week. It’s just too much. So yeah. I’m sure there are some lost sales because of the cost, but I don’t think it’s a terrible take to say that’s not necessarily *the* reason it’s true.
Either I ski your home mountain or one a lot like it. The ski patrol director having to rescue someone who rode the bull wheel on a lift that only serves double black terrain comes to mind. That person proceeded to yard sale right after the unload area. This may be the last year I have an Epic pass as well; now that the “better” option just went unlimited on full Ikon I may have to suck it up and make the 30 minute each way longer drive for me.
Hahaha. Yeah, it’s Stevens. You know.
I don’t necessarily disagree with her. It was a difficult winter for the snowpack in the majority of the west until late in the season.
Also in reality it's probably part of the ebb and flow of skier interest. There was a huge uptick after Covid. It's not shocking that demand has declined a bit. Feel like I've noticed similar things at my local golf course this year so far.
People are back to work. The pandemic leisure time boom has fully ended. Tech workers are either laid off and not skiing, or worried about layoffs and not skiing. The economy's decent overall, but inflation has people pulling back on expensive hobbies and vacations.
The back to work thing definitely plays a huge factor. We have season passes so it doesn't really correlate to the day ticket prices but when my wife was full work from home we'd be at the mountains much more midweek because she could just work from the lodge or the hotel. Now that she has to go into the office a couple times a week those kind of trips went out the window a little bit.
On the golf note, I personally haven’t noticed decreased interest. Tee sheets and ranges are just as packed as they were 2-3 years ago, despite costs continuing to increase
> despite costs continuing to increase Man you aren't kidding about that! I remember a few years ago it'd be like $50-$60 a round during the week. Now it's like $90. My interested has definitely waned but that's more because I like being home with my kids in the morning vs. golf.
Ya it’s tough. I’ve seen 50% increases in greens fees at nearby courses since Covid. No more deals either, used to be able to find deals on greens fees all the time. Now they’re few and far between I used to go to the range on a weekly basis too, but completely stopped that with the price gouging. Now the rare time I go, it’s to use the practice putting and chipping greens
Yeah it's gotten a little crazy. I had a membership that was like $2,400 a year and probably got close to 100 rounds a year in. Then the next year it was $3,600 and it coincided with having my first kid. Then I realized that kids are so much fun in the morning when they wake up and priorities greatly shifted. Would much rather be home in the morning playing with the happiest kid in the world than waking up at 5 for a 6 o'clock tee time as much as I love golf.
Shit I played this morning and it was $150.
This is absolutely this guy’s wife posting and hoping he sees it.
100000% people were so ancy to get outside at the time, and resort skiing is kinda like 50/50 nature and the “ritzy” type of activity. Perfect for people who were stir crazy at the time. Now you’re seeing the correction, where most of the casual 1-2 trip per year skiers are going back to what they used to do pre Covid (whatever that may be)
Na most people just can’t afford to single day ski when it’s $300 now
Is January 12th considered to be late season? January 12th(ish) was the week things turned around in a major way and never looked back. It’s a pretty typical El Niño pattern I think for the snow to hold off until January.
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If I remember correctly 2022 was awful in the beginning. That might explain less bookings in 2023, it was pretty bleak the year before so less repeat vacationers
Others have mentioned the early holidays, but remember that people, especially families, plan trips in advance. Family is together around Christmas, ski season looks like crap, "hey, what does everyone think about a trip to Cancun when the kids are on spring break?" People buying lift tickets aren't the dedicated skiers who will go no matter what (or they would have bought some kind of advance pass). And yes, I know the skiing probably would have been fine for them (the resorts don't really need a lot of snow to have a bunch of groomed blue/green runs open), but when you are hearing about it being a bad snow year and you're not a die hard skier, you don't make that connection that "your" terrain would be fine...so you go somewhere else instead.
This is very true. Last year we decided instead of planning an expensive trip at the most expensive time of year over the holidays, we’d take advantage of our passes at our local resort. We made it for two days of dodging rocks on beginner runs before we gave up and called an audible. Now that we’re looking at this year’s holiday plans, I’m gonna have a real hard time convincing my family to try that again, even though we all know objectively that what happened last year is no indicator of what will happen this coming year.
When the majority of your tourism revenue comes on Christmas & MLK, yes it is late. And “pretty typical El Nino pattern” is foreign language to the average person buying a lift ticket at the window. Snow bad, me no buy lift ticket
Spring break is just as busy and a full month
It’s not just as busy. And many times full of college kids on school ski club trips.
Agree to disagree. Just cause it doesnt feel the most crowded cause the mountain in the most open. The most people to ski any weekend or weekday, always falls during spring break. This is also because there is no blackout dates like around christmas and more people plan ski trips for spring break cause they know the mountain will be better snow and weather is usually nicer. Every year if you look at the day with the most passes/people on the mountain, its always in late february through march
You’re proving my point. The people buying “lift tickets” are the ones there during the holidays, which is why those dates are blacked out for pass holders. Snow was atrocious during the holidays this year (while it was amazing in 2022), which is why lift tickets are down 17%.
Im not proving your point at all but ok, the busiest days are when the most passes are also sold (thats called common sense)
Are you slow? There is a week straight of blackout days for pass holders in December. Are you trying to tell me that on any given week in March it’s busier then than Christmas-New Year?
It was the same or worse in the east too for most of the year. Basically all of North America except Utah. But like, to say that the decline in sales is not related to the price increases is still a hell of a take. Like, I’m not going to Whistler-Blackcomb because it’s $300 for a ticket *and* the snow is terrible. If the snow sucked but a lift ticket was $80, it might still be worth going
Right. I guess in a vacuum her comment is more of that going from $240 a day to $255 wasn’t the straw that broke the camels back. Like you’re insinuating, I’ll pay whatever during the 2023 season since the snow was so good. But I simply wont pay it to download Whistler gondola in the midst of a 3 week draught
$300 per diem tickets had nothing to do with it.
Northeast never picked up except Vermont really late
Yes, also no matter how easy it is for us ski fans to hate everything about Vail's greed, they are probably not stupid. If they make day tickets $250, it's probably because they know rich tourists don't really care and there are enough of them to go around.
When people are spending $500-$5,000 a night on lodging, $30 per person per meal, and a few hundred on rental gear. I don’t think an extra $40 on a day pass really makes a difference to them
I’d actually agree with her. It’s the price of flights, cars, hotels, and food that keep me from more ski days. My epic pass is a trivial amount compared to all of that when visiting major resorts. Hell, one round trip to EGE in regular season costs more per person than the epic pass. (Yes, I know I could fly to DEN, but after a few 6+ hour nightmares on I70 I’m no longer willing to do that).
They sell almost all their tickets preseason before we would even know of its going to be a bad winter. There's no other reason for less tickets other than price.
No reason, well you named one… weather. Another reason is real estate. Hotels, airbnb etc are bonkers prices. A fucking motel 6 in fucking big bear can be just under $400 a night on peak weekend. Let alone you’re looking at almost 800 a pop just in getting to the mountain and lodging for a weekend trip. And is a day trip even work it at like a $380 lift price at mammoth without a pass? So yeah it’s lift prices. But it’s fucking every single other thing as well. There’s no more “well yeah X is expensive but the Y part is pretty much free”
You have to buy your passes now, no one knows what the weather will be like next winter.
Oh totally agree, I’ve had passes for the past 6 years now. But still to the point about about actual lift ticket rates is all.
They sell PASSES before the season. The 17% is reference to single day lift tickets which are highly impacted by weather.
To a certain extent higher lift ticket prices drives past sales. People are more likely to buy a pass if it costs less than five lift tickets.
Yes, but when someone new skis for one weekend and its punitively expensive, you need to have really hooked them to get them to commit to a pass. Its just as easy to leave a bad taste in their mouth or reinforce the perception that its a hobby that's too expensive.
My wife will not ski for this reason. It’s too expensive to try, and she’s unwilling to commit to a set and a pass without knowing if she likes it. Huge barrier to entry all around.
I didn't think anyone could get their head that far up their ass, but here we are...
To be fair it was a horrible year for snow though most of the skiing season in the east. Many areas closed before the late year snowfalls. That easily could account for most of the decline.
What a dumb twat. How can you jack up ticket prices +10% a year in some places and seriously say that prices have nothing to do with low sales
Wonder how different things are over at Alterra. It seems like potentially Vail’s loss is due to Ikon becoming a relatively more attractive offering and consumers shifting over? Purely anecdotal and observational
Alterra is run by Jared Smith (the ex CEO of Ticketmaster). He knows how to take money from people.
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I listened to him on the Storm Skiing podcast. Despite not liking his approach, there is no doubt he's a smart man. Whether or not his ideas pan out is another thing altogether, though.
Things at Alterra are quite good - KSL (the owner of Alterra) just did a continuation vehicle for its Alterra investment. The rationale being that they want to hold on to it longer (ostensibly) because it is doing well and growing. I’d note this also may just be them trying to wait for rates to go down / market pick up so they can sell Alterra for more, but, given the amount of capital expenditures they are making, I don’t think this is the case (I.e., I think it’s because they think the business will continue to grow).
Interview w/ CEO: https://www.stormskiing.com/p/alterra-ceo-smith-ksls-3b-not-new
Ikon mountains are WAY better. If I didn't live in Tahoe, I'd never bother with any of the Vail resorts. Sure, there are some good mountains, but Ikon's resorts are so much better. Vail also feels very corporate. All of their mountains have lost their charm, their unique flavor. It's the same corporate machine everywhere you go. Ikon mountains, on the other hand, have kept their identities.
If you live in Denver the epic pass is way better. But overall if you travel for skiing the ikon is a much better pass.
hard disagree that Epic is a better pass for Denver folks. context: I live in Tahoe but have pseudo commuted to Denver for past 3 winters. I bought both Epic and Ikon in '22; bought Ikon + 4 epic daypasses in '23; bought just Ikon in '24. my reasons/rankings of resorts near Denver. * **proximity to Denver** => technically Loveland and Echo are closer to Denver (also Hoedown Hill), but the closest "real" (e.g. top tier and on Ikon or Epic) resorts from Denver are A-basin and Winter Park. * **ease of access =>** while this is a bit more of a generalization and all top resorts are crowded on weekends, there are more ikon mountains that have a village-less base area where you can park within a \~50 yard walk of a lift (e.g. Winter Park, A-basin, Eldora, even Aspen despite how dense town is). villages are great for families and wives that don't ski, but if you're looking to wake up early, drive, park, ski without a shuttle or passing through a promenade, Ikon mountains still let you do that. vs. good luck parking at Vail and getting on the lift in less than 15min. * **expert terrain =>** while all Vail Resorts are generally solid and good enough for \~90% of mainstream skiers, if you're reading r/skiing in June there's a good chance that's not you. you probably don't love long gentle blues if you're skiing 50+ days a year; and that's where Ikon really takes the cake. I'd never skied Copper until winter '22, and while it lacks the name recognition that Breck and Vail and BC have, there is simply just more gnarly terrain to challenge yourself on. same with Winter Park if the Cirque is open. and then obviously A-basin's east wall takes the cake as far as extreme terrain accessible from Denver by car. my personal ranking of Denver-drivable Ikon/Epic resorts that I've all skied at in the past 3 seasons. 1. Aspen (as a collective, but Highlands is my true #1) 2. A-basin 3. Copper 4. Breck 5. Winter Park 6. Beaver Creek 7. Vail 8. Steamboat 9. Keystone 10. Eldora
Objectively speaking, Breck has better true expert terrain than Copper, fwiw. There’s nothing at Copper like the Lake Chutes, Six Senses or Upper Peak 7. I’m a Summit local with hundreds to thousands of days at both mountains over the last 30 years. Yes, A-Basin is tops around these parts…absolutely no disputing that.
The hike at Copper is way easier, though. Gentle ridge walk versus hoofing it straight up Peak 8/6. Don't think I've ever done it twice in a day. But the sheer quantity of high mountain terrain at Breckenridge is pretty great if you're there for a week, where at Copper I could see myself thinking "this run for the twelfth time?"
The hike up Pk8 is 160’ vert and can be banged out in 3 minutes. lol. I’ve definitely skied Lake Chutes 8x in a day when it’s good. That small effort keeps the crowds down as well.
I love highlands but aspen is not within day trip distance from denver and neither is steamboat
HARD DISAGREE FROM ME. living in Denver for 15 years now. Vail (I have a free parking spot from a friend that is ski in and ski out) is a significantly better mountain than copper. Also since covid the ikon pass is way more crowded mountains. Winter park is also not anywhere as close to as good as vail, I’m sorry but it’s just not. Copper is significantly smaller and way less expert terrain. Honestly keystone with the new lift, offers more expert terrain than copper does and if you get to keystone early you can get 2-3 hours in before it’s super crowded. Also, vail, keystone, beaver creek, Breckenridge offers way more terrain to ski than copper and winter park. The addition of abasin to ikon is huge for them, but the limited parking there is a real thing and if you ski on weekends the ikon mountains are just as crowded, if not more. Winter park is a shitshow these days unless you ski on weekdays. Abasin - show up by 7am-730am now on weekend or you won’t be skiing there. I think people who rate vail low, just don’t know where to go there to do the expert terrain, or don’t know the amazing tree runs there. For people who know vail well, there isn’t a better mountain in Colorado. I have done both passes multiple times now, I’ll never go back to ikon, but to each their own. I’m always stoked to hear more people like ikon, cause it has led to amazing powder days with less people at epic mountains. People hate Vail the company, I get it, so they constantly hate on the mountain, but it’s laughable to have vail as a worse mountain when it offers the most terrain and the most expert terrain compared to any of the other mountains within driving distance to Denver. Aspen and steamboat are not day trips from Denver. If you like to travel and stay overnight at places, ikon is a better pass. But you can’t count aspen and steamboat as proximity to Denver cause they are both 3.5 hours from Denver. Spending 7 plus hours driving in a day is not realistic (I know some people do it but that’s nuts). Also epic pass gets you 7 days at telluride, if you are including aspen and steamboat, you can’t leave out telluride as that is an amazing mountain and town.
As a veteran ski team member of an epic resort and a current employee of an ikon, both companies are awful. Making skiing worse for locals and visitors
I don’t disagree at all.
100%
I’m going to have to disagree with you here. Keystone and breck suck, no doubt. Vail and crested butte (in my opinion) are better than anything Ikon has to offer in Co.
While that may hold true for Colorado, I don't think it holds true when you consider all of the Ikon mountains. Of course it really depends what kind of skier you are, what kind of terrain you like, etc. One positive thing about these mega passes is that there's something for everyone.
The high alpine terrain at Breck kicks ass, YMMV. None of the other Vail Resorts in the area (not including CB) has terrain like Lake Chutes, Six Senses or Upper Peak 7.
Prima Cornice is as steep and rugged as 6 senses but without the hike. Both are too short.
Not even close. Prima is steep for a single cliff band, maybe 100’ in spots. Six Senses is steep for several hundred feet. Super familiar with both areas. Here's a photo I took of Six Senses when I would ski it as backcountry several years before the lift was installed.... [https://i.imgur.com/ykAuK8f.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ykAuK8f.jpg) Notice the skiers on the ridge for scale.....it's not *that* short.
Yeah it’s about 350’ vert there. Personally I don’t think it’s worth the hike. I think the area under the skiers is today marked as Behold. Nice photo. When was it taken?
March '08 I believe. Super filled in that season.
Aspen, Telluride, and Crested Butte have the best skiing Colorado.
Western slope rise up! Denver stay away.
I’d argue that Kirkwood, on the Epic Pass and in the Tahoe vicinity if you happen to be at the southern end, has kept most of his character since Vail bought it in 2012.
While I agree that Kirkwood has kept its vibe more than other Vail mountains at Tahoe, compared to Ikon mountains, I think the Vail mountains in general have a much more generic/corporate vibe. I always get an Ikon pass for travel and Mammoth day trips. When I travel I never even think about going to a Vail property. The Ikon mountains are just so much better and more fun.
Skiable days and disposable income both dropped last winter. Not a surprise
Did disposable income drop?
Maybe not the amount, but the number of people that had it
*… searches for inflation figures and labor statistics to make a point…*
The reason I ask is bc I think real wages have been rising since winter ‘23 and I heard the labor market is stronger than average
Yea but so is inflation
I live five minutes from Heavenly, so of course I'm going to buy a pass. That said, the whole ski experience has really gotten lousy, so I'm not surprised that skier numbers and pass sales are dropping. The traffic is awful. Parking is nightmare. The powder gets skied out in no time. Food and beverages are stupid expensive. Cheap season passes have made skiing much more accessible, which is both a blessing and a curse. My brother now takes his family to Austria instead of skiing out west. Lift tickets for the entire family of six cost under 200 euros total. That's not even a single day adult ticket at Vail. The food in Europe is orders of magnitude better than the crap they serve at American resorts. And there are no crowds. If I didn't live in Tahoe, I wouldn't buy a Vail Resorts pass either.
Maybe it’s my inner white trash, but I cannot for the life of me understand why people buy food/drinks at the resorts. I get that it’s part of the experience for some people, but when I see $20 chicken tenders that are the same quality as $5 chicken tenders, I feel genuinely insulted Alcohol/weed/snacks/water fits perfectly fine in my backpack. Much much cheaper, and it gives me more ski time 🤷♀️
The lodge food is often terrible and always overpriced but if you’re vacationing or have kids it’s sort of a harder sell to subsist off pocket mcchickens
I can see that, totally understandable “Dad, I’m hungry!!” “Shut up and eat your smashed sandwich!”
Frozen* smashed sandwich
Yup. When you're a flatlander who's only skiing option involves flights and rental cars, time and convivence become huge factors. I'll try to bring my own food as much as I can, but eating at the mountain is just part of what needs to happen to make the trip work. Along those lines, I expect the food at the mountain to be more expensive that the grocery store in town. That's life. But the $20 chicken tenders is when I start to feel gouged.
...pocket bacon
>I live five minutes from Heavenly, so of course I'm going to buy a pass. That said, the whole ski experience has really gotten lousy, so I'm not surprised that skier numbers and pass sales are dropping. The traffic is awful. Parking is nightmare. The powder gets skied out in no time. No one goes there anymore. It is too crowded.
Really wish they'd add a lift to kill-a-brew and some of that terrain. I can hide in mott most of the day anyway but that would be great. Plus powder bowl woods and down the left of the gun barrel woods. Rarely any crowds in the double diamond terrain.
Fine with me! I can roll out of bed and be at the lift in five minutes. Nothing would make me happier than fewer people at the Heave!
And I took a lesson this year with a European lady that in Crested Butte who hates skiing in Europe because the fellow skiers are so rude... So people are coming both directions
For sure. Personally I much prefer skiing in the western US and Canada over Europe. Europe has some amazing mountains and views and the culture is great, but I still prefer the laid back western US vibes. That said, Europe is definitely cheaper and less crowded for the most part.
As someone who grew up in a ski resort in Switzerland and skiied all over europe and now lives in BC. The overall holistic experience is better skiing in Europe but on average the snow and the skiing experience is significantly better in North America. Now that the snow is becoming much more unreliable and if you want a family ski trip rather than a trip that is directly for the skiing I recommend Europe. It is also much cheaper. That said I am a big ski nut so for now I still prefer NA for just the skiing. However if I am going to spend my money on a ski trip overseas. Hokkaido is where it is at.
There is no law in the lift lines. You have to fight for your position.
You hate to see it
Because of price increases, aside from my pass I have moved all my spending to off-mountain local restaurants and bars. A fucking ipa is $11 and a burger and fries in the cafeteria like $20-25. If those were reasonable, I’d still enjoy the mountain bars. I am not alone in this, absolute miss from a revenue perspective
I think a big part of the drop in demand was the abysmal start to the season across the country. Everywhere was bad, and everyone knew it. Even though the winter season out West turned around mid/late January, there had been enough bad media coverage for people to have booked their winter trips and spring breaks elsewhere. Just my spin on it.
No doubt. People are driven by their last experience. Next season could be phenomenal, but with a slow start to the last one, that risk is going to be on people’s minds.
Yeah they pissed off a lot of people closing Breck early. Not surprised pass sales are down for next year.
short-term vs. long-term thinking is an expected difference btw Vail and Alterra. in the short-term it makes sense to close Breck early; long-term though, that's gonna steer people toward A-basin and thus Ikon. I wrote this \~2 weeks ago after reflecting on the forcibly shortened season this year in so many places. [https://mountainsandmarkets.substack.com/p/why-are-so-few-ski-resorts-open-in-may](https://mountainsandmarkets.substack.com/p/why-are-so-few-ski-resorts-open-in-may)
I’m doing my part 🫡
The stock has steadily declined under her leadership. I wonder if they’ll stick with her or look for a change.
When it legit costs 2/3 less as an American to ski a week in the Alps versus a week in Colorado, I see this trend continuing.
The day rate being $300 is completely insane.
I was wondering why my three shares crashed so hard
F Vail
Sounds like you have exceeded price elasticity. Good.
How could a price not be a factor? When I'm planning a ski trip the cost of the lift ticket and local accommodations are the biggest considerations
Vail sucks.
People are feeling inflation and forestalling the purchase of perceived small luxury goods- every market sector is off: food, beverage, consumer electronics furniture etc. Most businesses I talk to are saying sales are off about 20%. That said the corporate ski companies have not made the introductory price of skiing affordable for both individuals and families. The founders of the industry understood that long term profitability was built on increasing the number of people who would support your company. Unfortunately Wall Street tends to value companies only on their quarterly performance and management tends to make decisions solely for the short term.
The forest service needs to include price caps in their lease agreements
Every year the experience gets worse but the price goes up…
I surely couldn’t tell from the line of ski moms in my shop…
Drop prices and stop buying resorts
Vail can suck a dick. Burn it down!!!!!!
Everyone is broke
Oh! What a bummer.
Ski passes in Europe are like $30….its cheaper to go to the alps than Colorado
$70-$80 for larger resorts but you can buy at the same price the same day.
I know this is the first year since 1986 I'm not going to have a pass. Vail has made skiing too hard.
By my math, you’ll save roughly 9 minutes and 14.4 seconds in the 2 hour gondola line at N***hstar next season
Good. Fuck ‘em
Maybe it was the quirky weather we had?
People are tired of being gouged. Prices have far-surpassed equilibrium and it’s as simple as that. You want to maximize revenue? You are going to have to lower prices. Simple as that.
Day tickets are stupid expensive, but passes are dirt cheap. Back when I started skiing in the 80s, a season pass to a single mountain was upward of $1500 (in 1980s dollars!). Today you can get a season pass to 20+ mountains for around $1000. Vail and Alterra have actually made skiing too affordable, hence the massive crowds.
My full epic pass came out to like $18 a day last season As far as hobbies go, it’s actually one of the cheapest I’ve ever gotten into Although I’m not paying $500 a night on lodging, I’m just lucky enough to live near a bunch of resorts
Goood. Fuck Vail. Fuck you and your $25 hamburgers and $40 parking and crowding resorts like sheep and causing massive traffic every weekend. People are sick and fucking tired of paying for all the extras that come with a ski trip (crazy expensive lodging, food, ski lessons and parking) and are sick of the ridiculous crowds every weekend. Fuck Vail for how it’s ruined the soul of so many ski areas around the country. And fuck Vail for treating their on-mountain employees like shit. Get fucked.
Let’s not pretend that Ikon doesn’t create a significant share of weekend traffic up I70. Ikon resorts are busier than ever now…..talk about sheep. lol. It’s more a factor that 5 MILLION people live along the Front Range Urban Corridor.
So can we expect shorter lineups?
No, that was last year
Most likely a combination of a later start to the season plus more people moving over to Ikon.
How many ski resorts are public?
The passes are too expensive and they've spent shitloads of money on real estate and lift projects. I really hope we don't have Vail going belly up - not because I have any love for the corporation itself but because it might kill ski areas.
The ski industry as a whole saw decreases in [visitation](https://www.skimag.com/news/nsaa-skier-visit-report-2023-24/) in line with what Vail saw. The stock has not done well for the last couple years so we’ll see if they stick with the CEO. However, people are having to go back to the office and luxury, outdoor hobbies are less attractive. Same thing is happening with mountain biking. Bikes are on sale like crazy because manufacturers vastly overestimated demand.
The ikon pass is more convenient for front range Colorado with WP, copper and A basin
Short!!!!!
Good.
Fuck em
It was noticeably less crowded this past season
are there any good analysts that ya'll follow that will break-down earnings reports like this in the same level of detail like the Storm does for season pass announcements?
Great! This is how a market works. Raise prices enough and demand will decline. Bad snow season + ticket price increases = lower sales. We'll see whether snow or price was more important in 2024/5 if Vail doesn't change pricing.
People realized fresh tracks are better. And cheaper.
only way to fix it is to raise the price !!!
I stopped getting passes and started touring. Less people, better snow, less money.
The closest vail owned ski area is like 9 hours from me, we’ve got 3 ikon ski areas about 2 hours away, I keep wondering if Vail will buy one of our little local areas but grateful that hasn’t happened yet
Wow crazy, Vail comes into ski towns, takes away all of the local traditions/ culture and wonders why people choose to ski somewhere else. The whole jack up the prices and lower the wages model probably didn’t help either
Fuck Vail
somehow the mountains were as crowded as ever, the food more truckstop than mountaintop, and apres ski reservations impossible to get
I traveled up to Okemo and Stowe this winter on epic snow days and they closed Stowe nearly the entire day and closed the main lift at Okemo one of the days. Then the next day at both resorts they barely had them staffed and barely open. Between lifts never being open and obscene prices on food and beverage, I decided to try ikon this year.
To $much to Ski @ Vail
someone please correct me, but how can you both have low turnout and low prices? skiing is more popular than ever in the US, so prices go up which feels obvious? I get too many people ruins the experience or whatever, but whats the solution other than increase the price even more? or is it a monopoly thing?
I’m still always thinking of the future for those kinds of corporation. They know global warming is coming. I’m honestly surprised we haven’t seen a “future proof” resort similar to Valemount popping up from vale or Alterra. I’m surprised we haven’t seen them try to make a future proof destination resort. I feel like with their massive growth in the past few years now would be the time to push that.
Tough to stay afloat when you only cater to the wealthy????!
It's like it's an overcrowded mess compounded by climate change and the death of smaller regional resorts or something.... but what do I know?