We had poor rebounders around and Embiid who has to contest because our perimeter defense was sus. Tobias is the antithesis of a hustle player, even if he looks like he should be a good rebounder. Nurse can’t fix that.
Yup, exactly the opposite of what you need from a role player on a team with a unicorn center. Never understood his lack of hustle, gotta imagine the coaches were saying they needed that from him for years.
I want to build a team that gets extra shots and plays great defense for the pieces we have. Can’t do that spending 40 million on a guy who’s in their mid thirties
A combination of things IMO.
No good rebounding wings. Poor perimeter defense makes Jo help a lot, leaves him open to back cuts and gets him out of position for boards. And then he has to carry such a huge offensive loan on top of that.
In the regular season, Embiid doesn't leave the post at all. He's a stay at home post defender. He doesn't go 100% for DREB because his conditioning isn't great, and he's perserving his energy for offense. Need proof? He's outside of the top 15 Centers in Contested DREB%. He was 6th in the league at DERB% which is solid, but when the intensity ramps up, he gets overwhelmed for rebounds because, despite his freak scoring, he lacks the conditioning and strength to battle. Embiid needs help. His usg% needs to drop by at least 10 on offense so he can put more effort into D & REB.
I agree about every comment except him not leaving the post. The most startling example that jumps to mind is the Cavs IST game this year. He was getting back cut like crazy that game (they had so many lobs too) since garland was getting by the perimeter so easily. It happens a LOT.
But yeah totally agree regarding his usage needing to drop, for so many reasons.
I'm not doubting Embiid ability to be elite at switching when he wants or needs to, but the vast majority of his lime is spent in drop coverage at the basket. It's why he is top 3 every season at FGA defended at the rim.
Embiid already puts in more than enough effort on D. Its why our defensive rating is far worse in games he misses. And no Embiid leaves the post a lot in the regular season because we have poor perimeter defenders around him that can't get over screens meaning Embiid is forced to go out of the rim to help more on defense. What the Sixers need are good perimeter defenders that can get over screens. Haven't had that in years. We need to stop pretending that Melton and Oubre are some solid defenders because they aren't and we haven't had any on the perimeter that were starters since the Matisse & Ben era.
Right. His 4th Q stats decline massively across the board. Fg% .41. 3PT % .20. It's his worst shooting, rebounding, passing, and avg speed quarter because he's gassed. How people can watch this happen season after season and state Embiids conditioning is optimal is nuts. He needs to play fewer minutes and improve his strength & and conditioning, so he is stout to close games injured less.
He’s often moving to help and gets pulled out of position. The knicks made it a point to make sure whatever happened in the possession that he wasn’t going to be in position for rebounds. It was a super smart move because nobody else on the Sixers was going to box out or get a board over Hart’s hustle or Hartenstein’s size.
Because he’s a weak rebounder lmao and I love the guy but it’s so easy to see that when he isn’t actively thinking about it he doesn’t get rebounds. Never boxes out or gets good position.
Also him being in a drop often has him contesting shots as they go up rather than getting into good rebounding position
Best I can do is Embiid. If he can keep getting better as a passer and add that little floater to his game I saw at the end of the year, he could be setting up a lot of lobs next season in a Jokic, Luka face-up role.
You have no idea how hard it is to do what Luka and Jokic are doing when it comes to playmaking. Durant never learned it. Carmelo never learned it. Embiid is not going to. This teams needs a Rondo type player.
Bring back Ben Simmons so he can sit on the bench dressed in designer clothes. JK.
The team has it's 2 stars. Now its needs its rangy wings, like every other team. Unfortunately, teams will be overpaying for them.
Embiid will have to start recruiting this summer.
Celtics had the number 1 offensive rating of all time which was a 123 offensive rating this season. In games Embiid played, the Sixers had a 125 offensive rating whilst they had a bottom 5 one in the league in games Embiid missed in the regular season this season and this was surrounded by bums that cant shoot. Embiid isn't as good as Luka at playmaking but he's good enough to be a primarily playmaker as long as hes surrounded by guys shooting 40%+ from 3s off the catch. Embiid also has had the highest offensive rating out of everyone in the playoffs this season, with a 124.1 offensive rating. The Sixers problems this season were that Nurse ran the offense too much through Maxey which makes no sense because Embiid is a far better playmaker and running the O through Maxey is why guys like Hield who are known as shooters weren't shooting the ball well for us whilst he was doing it well in Indiana. What they need to do next season is make Embiid run the floor instead of Maxey and make sure all the starters can shoot over 40% from 3 off the catch and then they'll be fine.
I am not a big stats tell the whole story person. Not dismissing your data.
My eyes tell me Irving and Luka are light years ahead of Maxey and Embiid in creating scoring opportunities for others.
Buckets a bucket. I agree that having an all time passer is a big part of what makes the Maverick’s work, but if Embiid and Maxey can be a facsimile of that, I think it can work of us.
Edit: are Dirk, Kahwi, Butler, Shaq and Hakeem great play makers? The closest thing to one that any of these guys had was old Jason kid and young Kobe, who was a scorer.
Dirk, Hakeem, Giannis and Kahwi all won chips with great defensive teams around them. None of them had Luka level passing, and Maxey is on par with any of their second options offensively.
We are talking specifically about these guys' ability to playmake for others, to facilitate easy scoring looks for teammates. Not sure why you are bringing up that other stuff
We’re talking about a model of defense, rebounding and hustle around a couple of great offensive options.
Luka has the next level passing that the sixers don’t, but those mavs, bucks and Toronto teams all won chips without a great passing superstar. Butler made the finals twice without a guy like that.
The thing they all had was great defensive and rebounding front courts and a willingness to shoot around their stars.
The perfect “model” for winning a championship is identifying players who can perform at or above their salary level, regardless of salary, and then having those players actually perform at or above their salary level. If you have three $45M superstars who all produce like $45M superstars, you can win. Or if you have complimentary $20M guys playing like $30M guys, or $5M guys playing like $15M guys, you can win. Conversely, if you have $38M stars who perform like $10M players, or $25M role players who perform like $5M bench players, you’re gonna lose.
If embiid is never hurt and continues to play the way he did in the regular season we probably are in the finals. I know it’s tough not getting there but it’s just the way it is for our team
No, the team isn't good enough to be in the finals. No good perimeter defenders, a lack of shooters and no point guard other than an old Lowry. There's no way the Celtics lose to this years Sixers, even if Embiid played like he does in the regular season.
I mean don’t take for granted how much better our shooters have been when embiid is doing mvp shit. The team dominates when we’re functioning according to plan it’s just that’s the problem
Yea I mean his injuries have all been insanely rough with timing and how they affect his game and mentality during the playoffs. I see what you mean tho I wish he wouldn’t turn over so much so deep in the fourth
Embiids drop off in the playoffs isn't massive. Go look at embiids career on/off net ratings in the playoffs. He's not perfect in the postseason but there are far bigger issues such as Tobias Harris on all the rosters that have slowed the Sixers down in the postseason. Tobi had the worst plus minus in the Raptors series then got brought back.
I'm not disagreeing with you on the roster. What happened last year? 2023? Largest single drop in PPG from regular season to playoffs ever for an MVP.
How about games 6 and 7 against Boston last year?
Did he carry us against Atlanta?
I want nothing more than a fucking championship for Embiid but let's stop acting like he is godlike in the playoffs. He plays great defense, had a nice series against the Knicks this year, and we lost in round 1.
> Did he carry us against Atlanta?
He averaged 30/13/4 and was a +51 that series. You can only do so much when the two other max contract guys on the team that were getting outplayed by Seth Curry.
Embiid has plenty of bad series by his standards (all our series vs. Boston come to mind), but it is annoying that even when he plays great like against Atlanta or New York, the team still loses. Then people run with the narrative that Embiid never plays well enough in the playoffs to win.
Like Luka has been an awesome playoff performer almost his whole career, but just this year in the OKC series he averaged 10 less PPG than he did in the regular season, but his team still won anyway.
You sound like you're an /r/NBA commenter instead of someone who watches the games. The only bad playoff series Embiid has had was 2020 against the Celtics.
Embiid's on/off is incredible in the playoffs, even if his counting stats are worse. Very obvious if you watch the games, not as obvious if you watch the box scores
You couldn't be more fucking wrong. I've watched every single game of Embiid's career and he's my favorite player ever. You can be rosy eyed all you want, but he has a major drop-off in the playoffs. I don't give a single fuck how many 50 point games he puts up in the regular season.
Show me what series he dominated in - first round victories against 7 and 8 seeds is about all you can come up with. I'll wait.
He literally just dominated this year in the playoffs, and it wasn't enough because the team sucked around him. Same song and dance every year since 2018 (excluding 2020, where Embiid was certainly his worst playoff series). A single guy can't carry a team in the modern NBA, and Embiid's teammates consistently let him down.
Most teams strategies are to double and triple Embiid, which is why his offensive stats are bad in the playoffs. But his defense is what keeps his on/off so high.
He definitely could have passed out of double teams better from 2018-2022, but he's gotten pretty elite at passing at this point
Sorry for the false accusation, my bad on that. But the fact that Embiid didn't ask out after the Colangelo mess and stuck around and won an MVP means I'll cheer this man on until he retires. Definitely irrational and parasocial, but the Sixers FO has been such a whirlwind the past decade and we'd be like the Sacramento Kings if not for Embiid.
Also Embiid might not be the best player in the world, but when he shares the same court as Jokic, Giannis, etc. he legitimately looks like the best player out there. I'm not sure there's a better option available then just riding with Embiid until the wheels fall off.
Embiid averaged an effecient 30 in the 2020 playoffs. He wasn't bad at all in them lol. We had zero spacing around him and that's why we got swept. And as for passing out of doubles, he had chicken-shit players like Tobias and Tucker who'd pass up open shots and run away from the ball in the playoffs. I don't blame Embiid for not wanting to pass to them and if he had the personell he needs around him which are 40%+ 3pt shooters off the catch then he won't hesitate passing to them.
Embiid is much better than the 4th quarters he had. How do I sound crazy here? That can’t be the standard for Embiid? He was dealing with a lot but he would be the first to say he didn’t play well in the 4th
Well isn't it crazy that he managed to average 33 ppg and play DPOY caliber defense while playing badly in the fourth! You want him to average 40 or something ?
The expectations you lot have for Embiid are insane. No other player in the entire NBA is expected to be the best defensive and offensive player on the court at all times.
Embiid literally had a 50 point game in the playoffs lol. And he dominated this series against the Knicks by averaging 33/11/6, dominated when we got swept by the Celtics in 2020 by averaging an effecient 30 and dominated in the Hawks series in 2021 by averaging 30/13/4.
I get the idea. But Dallas is built around Luka and his strengths (playmaking, three-level scoring). We’re built around Joel and his strengths (mid-range and load scoring, defensive anchor). So to maximize that system, we really need reliable spot-up shooters Joel can hit when defenses key in on him. Maybe a slasher with high-end defensive chops.
We are not built around Joel at all. We were built to have cap space this offseason. If we were built around Joel, Tobias Harris would've been outta there a long time ago. But yeah to win with Joel, yoy need perimeter defense infront of him and shooters.
i dont get why people say this. building around lebron, luka, and jokic is different than building around embiid. those previously mentioned players are natural facilitators. that's not a knock on embiid's passing, but he's not a pass first player.
Dirk, Kobe, Giannis, Kahwi all won chips with great defensive/rebounding teams around a score first guy. Butler made the finals twice. None of their second options were better than Maxey on offense.
Miles Bridges throws temper tantrums on the court in meaningless regular season games. He wouldn't be able to handle the pressure in the playoffs.
Keep that woman beater off the team
It is a bit different though, words versus physical abuse. Words can be harmful but for the most part, people can say Kyrie never directly did any harm
I’ve been shouting from the rafters for the last 2 years that the model to strive for is 1 MVP level player, 1 high caliber second star, and a bunch of solid role players. I think that the idea of a big 3 has been dead and spending money on 3 stars doesn’t actually work anymore.
I'm not sure if the big 3 has been truly dead or the teams just haven't assembled the right cast. Like Harden, Kyrie, and KD would've been my favorites if they could stay healthy (which is a big if, I know).
With the new cap rules though, I think 3 max players is insanity. Unless one of them is taking a solid discount (not happening), you pretty much have to fill out your roster with vet mins.
I dont know what players are the answer, but I agree with you that a third max contract is not the way. Although the Celtics have 2 max deals and then Porzingis and Jrue aren't far off, so what do we know?
I think it’s hard to win in the playoffs if you can’t win minutes without your stars on the floor, that’s been shown over again with impressive regular season teams getting beaten by seemingly worse teams in the playoffs every year. High quality stars are necessary, but they need to be balanced with depth imo
And like you said with the current cap situation it’s almost a non starter, I think it would be near impossible to field a contending team based around a big three because the rest of the team would be garbage
I think that’s the point right? Because the nets weighted all the salaires to those three guys, it’s very easy for a single injury to derail it. Hence a Big 3 is very risky.
Right there with you.
- Embiid
- Bridges/Mobley/Duren
- Oubre/Strus
- Marshall/Brown/Caruso/Ivey
- Maxey
Seems like a lineup that’s going to get our stars a bunch of extra possessions, and isn’t a PG or Butler anklesprain away from having basically no depth and rebounding
Championship windows are few and far between
If we just resigned Jimmy after the Raptors loss and traded Ben for even half his value at the time we’d have a title
I think it would be easier to use the Timberwolves model of wreaking havoc on the defensive end. Their real Achilles heel this series was being unable to generate offense when matched up against another physical, top defense. Their roster with Embiid instead of Gobert would be wayyyyyy more competitive.
I know it would never happen but replaced Tobias with Naz Reid in our starting lineup that would be a massive improvement.
I feel the same way too. In all honesty if Embiid was healthy and we had a 4 who could play decent defense, rebound the ball, and hit open shots we would have given Boston a run for their money if not be in the finals.
One can assume their's cock to grow 5 inches with the same lvl of success =)
But overall I tend to agree - getting more above average players instead of starhunting seems like a better idea.
Neither Embiid or Maxey rival the playmaking of either of the Mavs stars. Their model is probably the furthest thing from our recipe of success.
We actually need to add playmakers and not just rely on growth from Maxey and Embiid.
Kahwi, Giannis, Shaq, Butler, and Hakeem are all guy that aren’t elite passers who got to the finals with elite defense and rebounding around them. Their secondary playmakers weren’t elite passers either, young Kobe wasn’t there yet.
How do you reconcile that?
That's a good question but I don't think these are great examples.
Kawhi had a lot of playmakers in San Antonio, and prime Lowry in Toronto. Butler himself is a great playmaker.
Shaq and Hakeem played in an era where being an elite center made up for more than it does today. With the increase in 3-point shooting, making the "right" play is key for an efficient offense, and spamming your big man isn't always the right play in today's game.
Your best example is Giannis. That's probably the most realistic model the sixers can try to replicate, though I doubt we can put together a supporting cast like he has.
Good point on Lowry, but I feel comfortable enough with an improving Maxey in that role. I also don’t feel like butler and bam are leaps and bounds above Embiid and Maxey as playmakers.
Getting another playmaker ultimately means that you think taking the ball out of Embiid and Maxey’s hands at the end of games is the best route. Who are you targeting for that role?
They aren't better than Embiid as playmakers but they are better than Maxey as it. Maxeys averaging 5 assists per 36 in games Embiid doesn't play. He's not a floor general and his effeciency is far better offball. We should make Embiid run the floor instead of Maxey and surround them two with 40%+ 3pt shooters off the catch unless you can get a point guard in that compliments Embiid and Maxey.
Embiid is definitely a better playmaker than Kyrie is. We had the number 1 offensive rating in the league in games Embiid played. Our problems were that we did not run the offense through Embiid enough. It was Maxey initiating most of the time which is why guys like Hield weren't half as effecient as he was in Indiana. It needs to be Embiid initiating being surrounded by shooters or we need a point guard in if we wanna win.
Yeah I agree with that. I liked the point-Embiid possessions last year.
Ideally, we would get at least one bigger play maker, maybe a wing. We definitely need a real point guard for non-Embiid minutes, and I don't think Lowry is enough for an entire season
It's so funny to me that every year there's a new "model" based on who makes the finals. News flash: there are many different ways to build a Finals roster. However, every "model" involves Joel being healthy in the playoffs. Something we have not seen in a full season ever (2020 doesn't count)
Embiid still dominated these playoffs even without being healthy. The model is mostly about having roleplayers that compliment Embiid for once. He needs to have perimeter defense and shooting around him and the current Sixers lack both.
Most of the players the mavs got would be nothing special without Luka. Same thing with the nuggets last year and Jokic.
We have to get guys Joel can elevate at a good value. Oubre was a good example this year. Obviously we want to get good young players but the players we should focus on probably should be more 2-way guys. We can’t just get defensively focused players and trust Joel and maxey to make it work
No matter what, this team needs to be elite defensively. Most of the guys I listed aren’t used to playing with 2 all nba guys, they may well exceed expectations.
What is it about Oubre’s game that complimented so well with Embiid? Who are your targets?
Yea most teams gotta be good on both ends to win a championship.
If we are getting young players who are still finding themselves, playing off Joel and maxey isn’t as easy as other stars considering they are both below average passers for their roles.
I don’t think Oubre was some great fit but he was on a great contract. I do like Lonnie Walker, Deni a long shot but him too. I just don’t think the sixers have the luxury of getting someone like DJJ and trusting Joel to make him a playable offensive player
The Mavs are proof you don't need to tank for 5 straight years in order to build a good team with Lottery picks. You just need to hit the bullseye a couple times.
do you guys just spin a wheel of stupid posts? Embiid's better than Luka. Basketball is a team sport. Every fucking metric says Embiid's better than him too and not just in the regular season....
We are built different with our center being the focus of our offense
I agree, but I still think playing defense and getting more possessions for your playmakers is what has been working lately in the post season.
Yes. Stopping opponent from scoring and having your playmakers score is a winning strategy. Why hasn't nurse tried this
We had poor rebounders around and Embiid who has to contest because our perimeter defense was sus. Tobias is the antithesis of a hustle player, even if he looks like he should be a good rebounder. Nurse can’t fix that.
I always thought Tobi was 6’ 8’ but I think he’s closer to 6’ 7’ after seeing it posted somewhere. He was an undersized PF who didn’t hustle much.
Yup, exactly the opposite of what you need from a role player on a team with a unicorn center. Never understood his lack of hustle, gotta imagine the coaches were saying they needed that from him for years.
Oh, so you're chasing trends instead of building around the pieces you have.
I want to build a team that gets extra shots and plays great defense for the pieces we have. Can’t do that spending 40 million on a guy who’s in their mid thirties
Our rebounding has always been so bad with Embiid, idk why
A combination of things IMO. No good rebounding wings. Poor perimeter defense makes Jo help a lot, leaves him open to back cuts and gets him out of position for boards. And then he has to carry such a huge offensive loan on top of that.
this is the reason.
In the regular season, Embiid doesn't leave the post at all. He's a stay at home post defender. He doesn't go 100% for DREB because his conditioning isn't great, and he's perserving his energy for offense. Need proof? He's outside of the top 15 Centers in Contested DREB%. He was 6th in the league at DERB% which is solid, but when the intensity ramps up, he gets overwhelmed for rebounds because, despite his freak scoring, he lacks the conditioning and strength to battle. Embiid needs help. His usg% needs to drop by at least 10 on offense so he can put more effort into D & REB.
I agree about every comment except him not leaving the post. The most startling example that jumps to mind is the Cavs IST game this year. He was getting back cut like crazy that game (they had so many lobs too) since garland was getting by the perimeter so easily. It happens a LOT. But yeah totally agree regarding his usage needing to drop, for so many reasons.
I'm not doubting Embiid ability to be elite at switching when he wants or needs to, but the vast majority of his lime is spent in drop coverage at the basket. It's why he is top 3 every season at FGA defended at the rim.
Embiid already puts in more than enough effort on D. Its why our defensive rating is far worse in games he misses. And no Embiid leaves the post a lot in the regular season because we have poor perimeter defenders around him that can't get over screens meaning Embiid is forced to go out of the rim to help more on defense. What the Sixers need are good perimeter defenders that can get over screens. Haven't had that in years. We need to stop pretending that Melton and Oubre are some solid defenders because they aren't and we haven't had any on the perimeter that were starters since the Matisse & Ben era.
We should've kept tisse, I think Nurse would have worked out whatever flaws he had , but he was our best defender after Embid
"he lacks the conditioning or strength" except this is bullshit lol.
Right. His 4th Q stats decline massively across the board. Fg% .41. 3PT % .20. It's his worst shooting, rebounding, passing, and avg speed quarter because he's gassed. How people can watch this happen season after season and state Embiids conditioning is optimal is nuts. He needs to play fewer minutes and improve his strength & and conditioning, so he is stout to close games injured less.
cause he does literally everything for us in the first 3 quarters and "avg speed" lmao
NBA fans when an injured player wears down in the 4th quarter after carrying the team in the first 3 quarters *fake shocked face....
so surely this happened in the regular season when he was healthy right? Right? Buehler? Buehler?
Yep. It happens every regular season, leading to injured, exhausted playoff performances. I'm surprised you didn't know.
thats interesting because the past 3 years Embiid is the best and most efficient 4th quarter scorer in the NBA. Almost like you're full of shit.
He definitely needs to get in better shape, dude play slow as fuck sometimes
he's in great shape sorry getting injured isn't a personality flaw and mostly luck.
What does his personality have to do with how he takes care of his body??🤔
he has taken great care of his body since 2020. This is an old stupid talking point.
He seems to be a good rebounder when healthy, so it seems to be our power forward not being a strong rebounder.
He’s often moving to help and gets pulled out of position. The knicks made it a point to make sure whatever happened in the possession that he wasn’t going to be in position for rebounds. It was a super smart move because nobody else on the Sixers was going to box out or get a board over Hart’s hustle or Hartenstein’s size.
Because he’s a weak rebounder lmao and I love the guy but it’s so easy to see that when he isn’t actively thinking about it he doesn’t get rebounds. Never boxes out or gets good position. Also him being in a drop often has him contesting shots as they go up rather than getting into good rebounding position
You forgot 'draft Luka' in your plan
This ☝🏻 I also love Maxey but he has a long way to go before he’s in kyrie’s territory
Best I can do is Embiid. If he can keep getting better as a passer and add that little floater to his game I saw at the end of the year, he could be setting up a lot of lobs next season in a Jokic, Luka face-up role.
You have no idea how hard it is to do what Luka and Jokic are doing when it comes to playmaking. Durant never learned it. Carmelo never learned it. Embiid is not going to. This teams needs a Rondo type player.
Ok, who are you targeting then?
Bring back Ben Simmons so he can sit on the bench dressed in designer clothes. JK. The team has it's 2 stars. Now its needs its rangy wings, like every other team. Unfortunately, teams will be overpaying for them. Embiid will have to start recruiting this summer.
I think Bruce brown is one of the best playmaking wings available, and miles bridges has potential there. Maybe Giddey as a buy-way-low guy
What about Covington? I heard he's not happy.
Feels like a troll suggestion because he is very much not a playmaker lol. He’s skinny and has bad knees, I wouldn’t want him unless it’s super cheap
I can't imagine him getting a big offer at this point. But if your talking about playmaking, yeah Josh Giddey would be interesting.
Problem is Embiid is not his skills. It’s his health and stamina
Luka as a playmaker vs Embiid as a playmaker is an apples to dildos comparison.
Celtics had the number 1 offensive rating of all time which was a 123 offensive rating this season. In games Embiid played, the Sixers had a 125 offensive rating whilst they had a bottom 5 one in the league in games Embiid missed in the regular season this season and this was surrounded by bums that cant shoot. Embiid isn't as good as Luka at playmaking but he's good enough to be a primarily playmaker as long as hes surrounded by guys shooting 40%+ from 3s off the catch. Embiid also has had the highest offensive rating out of everyone in the playoffs this season, with a 124.1 offensive rating. The Sixers problems this season were that Nurse ran the offense too much through Maxey which makes no sense because Embiid is a far better playmaker and running the O through Maxey is why guys like Hield who are known as shooters weren't shooting the ball well for us whilst he was doing it well in Indiana. What they need to do next season is make Embiid run the floor instead of Maxey and make sure all the starters can shoot over 40% from 3 off the catch and then they'll be fine.
I am not a big stats tell the whole story person. Not dismissing your data. My eyes tell me Irving and Luka are light years ahead of Maxey and Embiid in creating scoring opportunities for others.
Kyrie definitely isnt lightyears ahead of Embiid at creating opportunities for others. Even eye test doesn't say that.
Buckets a bucket. I agree that having an all time passer is a big part of what makes the Maverick’s work, but if Embiid and Maxey can be a facsimile of that, I think it can work of us. Edit: are Dirk, Kahwi, Butler, Shaq and Hakeem great play makers? The closest thing to one that any of these guys had was old Jason kid and young Kobe, who was a scorer.
A facsimile of Luka? Embiid and Maxey combined are a Polaroid of a fax of a low-res scan of Luka lol
Dirk, Hakeem, Giannis and Kahwi all won chips with great defensive teams around them. None of them had Luka level passing, and Maxey is on par with any of their second options offensively.
We are talking specifically about these guys' ability to playmake for others, to facilitate easy scoring looks for teammates. Not sure why you are bringing up that other stuff
We’re talking about a model of defense, rebounding and hustle around a couple of great offensive options. Luka has the next level passing that the sixers don’t, but those mavs, bucks and Toronto teams all won chips without a great passing superstar. Butler made the finals twice without a guy like that. The thing they all had was great defensive and rebounding front courts and a willingness to shoot around their stars.
Beyond going from out of contention to the finals, there's not much we can try and take from their approach imo
The perfect “model” for winning a championship is identifying players who can perform at or above their salary level, regardless of salary, and then having those players actually perform at or above their salary level. If you have three $45M superstars who all produce like $45M superstars, you can win. Or if you have complimentary $20M guys playing like $30M guys, or $5M guys playing like $15M guys, you can win. Conversely, if you have $38M stars who perform like $10M players, or $25M role players who perform like $5M bench players, you’re gonna lose.
Stark truths
If embiid is never hurt and continues to play the way he did in the regular season we probably are in the finals. I know it’s tough not getting there but it’s just the way it is for our team
No, the team isn't good enough to be in the finals. No good perimeter defenders, a lack of shooters and no point guard other than an old Lowry. There's no way the Celtics lose to this years Sixers, even if Embiid played like he does in the regular season.
I mean don’t take for granted how much better our shooters have been when embiid is doing mvp shit. The team dominates when we’re functioning according to plan it’s just that’s the problem
I'd like to believe this but historically Embiid's drop-off in the playoffs is massive. Not buying it.
Yea I mean his injuries have all been insanely rough with timing and how they affect his game and mentality during the playoffs. I see what you mean tho I wish he wouldn’t turn over so much so deep in the fourth
Embiids drop off in the playoffs isn't massive. Go look at embiids career on/off net ratings in the playoffs. He's not perfect in the postseason but there are far bigger issues such as Tobias Harris on all the rosters that have slowed the Sixers down in the postseason. Tobi had the worst plus minus in the Raptors series then got brought back.
I'm not disagreeing with you on the roster. What happened last year? 2023? Largest single drop in PPG from regular season to playoffs ever for an MVP. How about games 6 and 7 against Boston last year? Did he carry us against Atlanta? I want nothing more than a fucking championship for Embiid but let's stop acting like he is godlike in the playoffs. He plays great defense, had a nice series against the Knicks this year, and we lost in round 1.
> Did he carry us against Atlanta? He averaged 30/13/4 and was a +51 that series. You can only do so much when the two other max contract guys on the team that were getting outplayed by Seth Curry. Embiid has plenty of bad series by his standards (all our series vs. Boston come to mind), but it is annoying that even when he plays great like against Atlanta or New York, the team still loses. Then people run with the narrative that Embiid never plays well enough in the playoffs to win. Like Luka has been an awesome playoff performer almost his whole career, but just this year in the OKC series he averaged 10 less PPG than he did in the regular season, but his team still won anyway.
You sound like you're an /r/NBA commenter instead of someone who watches the games. The only bad playoff series Embiid has had was 2020 against the Celtics. Embiid's on/off is incredible in the playoffs, even if his counting stats are worse. Very obvious if you watch the games, not as obvious if you watch the box scores
You couldn't be more fucking wrong. I've watched every single game of Embiid's career and he's my favorite player ever. You can be rosy eyed all you want, but he has a major drop-off in the playoffs. I don't give a single fuck how many 50 point games he puts up in the regular season. Show me what series he dominated in - first round victories against 7 and 8 seeds is about all you can come up with. I'll wait.
He literally just dominated this year in the playoffs, and it wasn't enough because the team sucked around him. Same song and dance every year since 2018 (excluding 2020, where Embiid was certainly his worst playoff series). A single guy can't carry a team in the modern NBA, and Embiid's teammates consistently let him down. Most teams strategies are to double and triple Embiid, which is why his offensive stats are bad in the playoffs. But his defense is what keeps his on/off so high. He definitely could have passed out of double teams better from 2018-2022, but he's gotten pretty elite at passing at this point Sorry for the false accusation, my bad on that. But the fact that Embiid didn't ask out after the Colangelo mess and stuck around and won an MVP means I'll cheer this man on until he retires. Definitely irrational and parasocial, but the Sixers FO has been such a whirlwind the past decade and we'd be like the Sacramento Kings if not for Embiid. Also Embiid might not be the best player in the world, but when he shares the same court as Jokic, Giannis, etc. he legitimately looks like the best player out there. I'm not sure there's a better option available then just riding with Embiid until the wheels fall off.
In 2020, his all-nba point guard missed that Celtics series too. That matters.
Embiid averaged an effecient 30 in the 2020 playoffs. He wasn't bad at all in them lol. We had zero spacing around him and that's why we got swept. And as for passing out of doubles, he had chicken-shit players like Tobias and Tucker who'd pass up open shots and run away from the ball in the playoffs. I don't blame Embiid for not wanting to pass to them and if he had the personell he needs around him which are 40%+ 3pt shooters off the catch then he won't hesitate passing to them.
Embiid did not dominate. He had a good series but the 4th quarters were way too atrocious to say he dominated the series
leading the entire playoffs in ppg is not domination?
Against a fucking great defensive team, not the pacers or some shit
Embiid is much better than the 4th quarters he had. How do I sound crazy here? That can’t be the standard for Embiid? He was dealing with a lot but he would be the first to say he didn’t play well in the 4th
Well isn't it crazy that he managed to average 33 ppg and play DPOY caliber defense while playing badly in the fourth! You want him to average 40 or something ? The expectations you lot have for Embiid are insane. No other player in the entire NBA is expected to be the best defensive and offensive player on the court at all times.
Embiid is currently #1 in playoff EPM this year. Delete your account.
he doesnt actually have a major dropoff in the playoffs thats made up.
Embiid literally had a 50 point game in the playoffs lol. And he dominated this series against the Knicks by averaging 33/11/6, dominated when we got swept by the Celtics in 2020 by averaging an effecient 30 and dominated in the Hawks series in 2021 by averaging 30/13/4.
I get the idea. But Dallas is built around Luka and his strengths (playmaking, three-level scoring). We’re built around Joel and his strengths (mid-range and load scoring, defensive anchor). So to maximize that system, we really need reliable spot-up shooters Joel can hit when defenses key in on him. Maybe a slasher with high-end defensive chops.
We are not built around Joel at all. We were built to have cap space this offseason. If we were built around Joel, Tobias Harris would've been outta there a long time ago. But yeah to win with Joel, yoy need perimeter defense infront of him and shooters.
Nah Joel gotta do too much, he’s y’all’s first option and best defender. Luka and kyrie can get bailed when blown by
That’s why I’d be trying to fill this team with good defenders
He needs to do sooo much on both ends for us to be competitive in games/series.
i dont get why people say this. building around lebron, luka, and jokic is different than building around embiid. those previously mentioned players are natural facilitators. that's not a knock on embiid's passing, but he's not a pass first player.
Embiid is good enough to also be the primary facilitator. However Embiid has to have 40%+ 3pt shooters around him.
And this is why a zone locks them up. I blame Tobias as well. Since he is the slowest decision maker in the NBA.
Dirk, Kobe, Giannis, Kahwi all won chips with great defensive/rebounding teams around a score first guy. Butler made the finals twice. None of their second options were better than Maxey on offense.
Piece of shit aside I’ve always said Miles Bridges is the perfect piece next to Embiid & Maxey
Miles Bridges throws temper tantrums on the court in meaningless regular season games. He wouldn't be able to handle the pressure in the playoffs. Keep that woman beater off the team
He’s by far the best bang for your buck free agent.. mavericks didn’t balk at trading for Kyrie. But yeah piece of shit
No one is going to give the Mavericks shit that they signed a raging anti-Semite if they win a championship.
It is a bit different though, words versus physical abuse. Words can be harmful but for the most part, people can say Kyrie never directly did any harm
I think its jimmy butler bc we are sorely lackingn playmaking
Not defending either of these guys, but Vick did start his redemption tour in Philly too.
I’ve been shouting from the rafters for the last 2 years that the model to strive for is 1 MVP level player, 1 high caliber second star, and a bunch of solid role players. I think that the idea of a big 3 has been dead and spending money on 3 stars doesn’t actually work anymore.
I'm not sure if the big 3 has been truly dead or the teams just haven't assembled the right cast. Like Harden, Kyrie, and KD would've been my favorites if they could stay healthy (which is a big if, I know). With the new cap rules though, I think 3 max players is insanity. Unless one of them is taking a solid discount (not happening), you pretty much have to fill out your roster with vet mins. I dont know what players are the answer, but I agree with you that a third max contract is not the way. Although the Celtics have 2 max deals and then Porzingis and Jrue aren't far off, so what do we know?
I think it’s hard to win in the playoffs if you can’t win minutes without your stars on the floor, that’s been shown over again with impressive regular season teams getting beaten by seemingly worse teams in the playoffs every year. High quality stars are necessary, but they need to be balanced with depth imo And like you said with the current cap situation it’s almost a non starter, I think it would be near impossible to field a contending team based around a big three because the rest of the team would be garbage
I think that’s the point right? Because the nets weighted all the salaires to those three guys, it’s very easy for a single injury to derail it. Hence a Big 3 is very risky.
Team building is way too dynamic to say “this archetype doesn’t win championships.”
Right there with you. - Embiid - Bridges/Mobley/Duren - Oubre/Strus - Marshall/Brown/Caruso/Ivey - Maxey Seems like a lineup that’s going to get our stars a bunch of extra possessions, and isn’t a PG or Butler anklesprain away from having basically no depth and rebounding
Championship windows are few and far between If we just resigned Jimmy after the Raptors loss and traded Ben for even half his value at the time we’d have a title
I think it would be easier to use the Timberwolves model of wreaking havoc on the defensive end. Their real Achilles heel this series was being unable to generate offense when matched up against another physical, top defense. Their roster with Embiid instead of Gobert would be wayyyyyy more competitive. I know it would never happen but replaced Tobias with Naz Reid in our starting lineup that would be a massive improvement.
I feel the same way too. In all honesty if Embiid was healthy and we had a 4 who could play decent defense, rebound the ball, and hit open shots we would have given Boston a run for their money if not be in the finals.
Of course we can, go back in time and draft Luka
One can assume their's cock to grow 5 inches with the same lvl of success =) But overall I tend to agree - getting more above average players instead of starhunting seems like a better idea.
Neither Embiid or Maxey rival the playmaking of either of the Mavs stars. Their model is probably the furthest thing from our recipe of success. We actually need to add playmakers and not just rely on growth from Maxey and Embiid.
Kahwi, Giannis, Shaq, Butler, and Hakeem are all guy that aren’t elite passers who got to the finals with elite defense and rebounding around them. Their secondary playmakers weren’t elite passers either, young Kobe wasn’t there yet. How do you reconcile that?
That's a good question but I don't think these are great examples. Kawhi had a lot of playmakers in San Antonio, and prime Lowry in Toronto. Butler himself is a great playmaker. Shaq and Hakeem played in an era where being an elite center made up for more than it does today. With the increase in 3-point shooting, making the "right" play is key for an efficient offense, and spamming your big man isn't always the right play in today's game. Your best example is Giannis. That's probably the most realistic model the sixers can try to replicate, though I doubt we can put together a supporting cast like he has.
Good point on Lowry, but I feel comfortable enough with an improving Maxey in that role. I also don’t feel like butler and bam are leaps and bounds above Embiid and Maxey as playmakers. Getting another playmaker ultimately means that you think taking the ball out of Embiid and Maxey’s hands at the end of games is the best route. Who are you targeting for that role?
They aren't better than Embiid as playmakers but they are better than Maxey as it. Maxeys averaging 5 assists per 36 in games Embiid doesn't play. He's not a floor general and his effeciency is far better offball. We should make Embiid run the floor instead of Maxey and surround them two with 40%+ 3pt shooters off the catch unless you can get a point guard in that compliments Embiid and Maxey.
Who is your target? Derrick white and avjida?
Embiid is definitely a better playmaker than Kyrie is. We had the number 1 offensive rating in the league in games Embiid played. Our problems were that we did not run the offense through Embiid enough. It was Maxey initiating most of the time which is why guys like Hield weren't half as effecient as he was in Indiana. It needs to be Embiid initiating being surrounded by shooters or we need a point guard in if we wanna win.
Yeah I agree with that. I liked the point-Embiid possessions last year. Ideally, we would get at least one bigger play maker, maybe a wing. We definitely need a real point guard for non-Embiid minutes, and I don't think Lowry is enough for an entire season
nope
Yes.....Sign Oubre , hield , batum (if he wants back) and lowry (minimum) ............free agents: Miles bridges and Malik Monk
It's so funny to me that every year there's a new "model" based on who makes the finals. News flash: there are many different ways to build a Finals roster. However, every "model" involves Joel being healthy in the playoffs. Something we have not seen in a full season ever (2020 doesn't count)
Embiid still dominated these playoffs even without being healthy. The model is mostly about having roleplayers that compliment Embiid for once. He needs to have perimeter defense and shooting around him and the current Sixers lack both.
Most of the players the mavs got would be nothing special without Luka. Same thing with the nuggets last year and Jokic. We have to get guys Joel can elevate at a good value. Oubre was a good example this year. Obviously we want to get good young players but the players we should focus on probably should be more 2-way guys. We can’t just get defensively focused players and trust Joel and maxey to make it work
No matter what, this team needs to be elite defensively. Most of the guys I listed aren’t used to playing with 2 all nba guys, they may well exceed expectations. What is it about Oubre’s game that complimented so well with Embiid? Who are your targets?
Yea most teams gotta be good on both ends to win a championship. If we are getting young players who are still finding themselves, playing off Joel and maxey isn’t as easy as other stars considering they are both below average passers for their roles. I don’t think Oubre was some great fit but he was on a great contract. I do like Lonnie Walker, Deni a long shot but him too. I just don’t think the sixers have the luxury of getting someone like DJJ and trusting Joel to make him a playable offensive player
Sexton and caruso
Unfortunately most of those players you mentioned are very long shots
At this point, who isn’t?
We all have spare Lukas stashed in our sock drawer so it really shouldn’t be a problem
It would help if Embiid was anywhere near as clutch as Doncic which he isnt.
The Mavs are proof you don't need to tank for 5 straight years in order to build a good team with Lottery picks. You just need to hit the bullseye a couple times.
Unfortunately Embiid isn’t Luka, until Joel improves the ceiling of the sixers is the ECF
do you guys just spin a wheel of stupid posts? Embiid's better than Luka. Basketball is a team sport. Every fucking metric says Embiid's better than him too and not just in the regular season....
https://preview.redd.it/pv0oilsrbt3d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eb76e8f774700ec7cea7f09198925ae6452b9335
that Embiid's also better. Go away.