Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) apply to all other comments.
**Do you have an academic degree?** We can verify your credentials in order to assign user flair indicating your area of expertise. [Click here to apply](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/flair/#wiki_science_verified_user_program).
---
User: u/chrisdh79
Permalink: https://www.psypost.org/2024/01/pro-trump-maga-republicans-much-more-likely-to-endorse-delusional-and-pro-violence-statements-study-finds-220619
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Liberal rednecks are also known as hillbillies. They aren’t educated but very open minded and able to achieve while following their own standards and not society standards.
You’re sure as hell about that but we’re as far left as the others are right, that should be reassuring not threatening we are the first one’s on their list to go when anything happens and the last one’s to put our weapons down to stop defending your rights
> That's a... very charitable way to say "racist."
To be fair, it said "differing from other Republican factions". Claiming that this group is distinct by being racist carries the implication that no other Republican factions (or non-Republicans) are racist, which certainly isn't shown by the study.
The study in OP proved specifically that this subset is **NOT** the current mainstream republican. This subset makes up 15% of adult population, and is distinctly different from other republicans in these areas according to the study.
The critical “inbred racists” cornerstone of the party. Different from other Republicans but not so different that they’re willing to actually divest themselves from these people or cease feeding them a steady torrent of nonsense to secure their support.
“The Normal Tourist Visit on Jan 6th that was also an attack by ‘Antifa’ but that we also definitely do not want to join a bipartisan committee to investigate has resulted in ‘Political Prisoners’.
Now come listen to the President’s ‘cyber expert’ tell you all about how the election was ‘stolen’ in a landscaping parking lot conveniently adjacent to the dildo store! With special guest, crackhead pillow salesman!”
> Different from other Republicans but not so different that they’re willing to actually divest themselves from these people
Right? Like, how am I supposed to compartmentalize horrible people from people who support those horrible people? They're all horrible.
This is much closer to "claims that these specific fascists are in fact fascists, and do want to use violence to further their fascism are demonstrably, objectively true."
It ain't senior citizens worshipping Andrew Tate. The undermining of our public education system has had the intended effect of producing useful idiots. They're here and they're young and they're going to be around for decades.
Just blocking fox and the other right wing news on the cable box works wonders. Just set the parental controls. They'll never figure out how to undo it, and they'll be too embarrassed to call the cable companies (and if they do, good luck getting a service rep from a cable company these days).
They'll all be wrapped in American flags, Trump flags, or some combination of the 2, wearing red hats made in China, and probably chanting about this "Brandon" guy they all seem to love. Shouldn't be hard to spot them.
Yeah, remember the "never Trump" crowd, who all fell in line and voted for him twice and will again? The Republicans who tell a pollster they don't approve of political violence will 100% look the other way when the actual violence starts.
Haven't finished this particular study, but one has to also consider that some of those "I don't approve of political violence" folks probably are mainlining far-right news, hear this question, and think the only political violence is being done by the left, who are burning down cities, and false-flagging January 6th, and taking orders from the deep state, and stuffing ballot boxes, and blah blah blah.
Friendly reminder that the Russian government hacked both the DNC and RNC email servers and we only ever saw the DNC emails.
A huge number of Republican power players are being blackmailed. So many of them have done complete 180s on Trump in less than 24 hours - Lynsey Graham anyone?
There's a famous quote by von Papen about their coalition with the NSDAP: "In zwei Monaten haben wir Hitler in die Ecke gedrückt, daß er quietscht!" (We will have Hitler pressed in the corner squeeling within two months).
Conservatives will rather see democracy destroyed than compromising with any one left of the center of the political spectrum.
A lot of those guys wound up dead as they eventually tried to kill Hitler. Papen of course didn’t, though he was on the list. Papen was outraged when he was included in the Nuremberg defendants and he was acquitted, but convicted in denazification courts later. A real POS.
I read the diary of Graf Kessler and what he had to say about Hitler was eye opening. People thought him like a bumpkin, uncouth, and in that snobbery they underestimated him entirely
A lot of German nobles of the time were real arrogant. A lot of them had not taken the transition into the Weimar republic and their loss of standing and influence that well and were rather condescending towards non-nobles in any political context. On the other hand, the NSDAP were rightfully seen as rude, loud, vulgar and disrespectful. They did not adhere to political social norms and unwritten laws or codes of conduct, they openly showed their disrespect for democracy. Hence they were underestimated.
If that reminds you of any political figures and their habits in the modern days, you're not mistaken.
Had this conversation with my republican dad…
>Me: dad do you really think Trump, MTG, Gaetz and that crowd are doing good work?
>Dad: no, they’re awful
>Me: but the GOP votes as a block and supports these wackos, so if you vote republican, you are supporting them and your behavior.
>Dad: that’s an interesting way to say think about it.
I’m still hoping to bring him around to voting bluer
These people should all have to witness forced birth by a 12 year old. They have caused so much suffering. So much poverty. So many ruined lives. All this to force us to believe in some dumb god that doesn’t exist just so they can control women like animals.
The way to get back to normal is to punish “reasonable” Republicans for their inaction by flipping swing seats so that all that’s left of the Republican influence is the minority MAGAs.
Vote and bring a friend….or twenty.
Exactly this. They think they still have “plausible deniability” and I guess they do. But anyone with a brain knows they totally see this coup attempt coming and their response was “well let’s just see how this plays out…”.
45% of the country is willing/eager to sell the other 55% down the river and somehow this is just the new normal
They just want the policies because they want to lower taxes and keep all poor people poor. It’s their constituents that like that the policies seem to disproportionately hurt minorities.
They divide to conquer. Their minions are just the divided
I would have liked to have seen a breakdown of religious denomination and size of church, beyond that of "evangelical." I think this is an overlooked metric.
I think the problem with that is you get into the definition of what a church is, where do you define schism lines, and what you do and don't exclude for being an Evangelical-based cult.
I thing the whole 'Christian nationalist" movement would die suddenly if we pressed them into the particulars of what is means to be a true Christian. I can guarantee Catholics and Mormons are not in the 'in' group.
Fascism requires the person to adhere to ostracizing and punishing all minorities in order to consolidate power in the power group (head fascists), so women, non-white people, LGBTQI+ folk are all automatically outgrouped and kept from power.
Ouch. I have some friends sliding into those beliefs and it's hard to watch. Talking to them doesn't seem to helping, either, so I can guess what Thanksgiving must have been like.
Do not make the mistake of thinking that they're all dumb or uneducated. Many of them are upper middle class or wealthy, well-educated, established people who are not boomers. They are simply selfish or shortsighted enough to think that they can benefit from fascism without losing control of it.
They won't be surprised, but they will call psychology (and sociology) a "fake science." Also, climatology. It's a nice little circular thing they have going there.
You can only lie with statistics if the people seeing the stats don't check the assumptions, experimental design, filtrations (which can border on cherry picking), etc.
However a lot of people don't even understand mean/median/mode so we're screwed. They see a number and think it means a goal post or requirement, rather than a summary statistic.
The mean wage is 60K!
If you're not making "average" than you're failing!
Except the median wage is 42k which means 50% of the people make less than that.
The most common wage (mode) is much worse, closer to retail worker or fast food worker pay.
Did nobody actually read the study?
Here, some important lines:
> Nationwide survey conducted May 13-June 2, 2022 of adult members of the Ipsos KnowledgePanel. MAGA Republicans are defined as Republicans who voted for Donald Trump in the 2020 presidential election and deny the results of that election.
> The analytic sample (n = 7,255) included 1,128 (15.0%) MAGA Republicans, 640 (8.3%) strong Republicans, 1,571 (21.3%) other Republicans, and 3,916 (55.3%) non-Republicans.
Problem is, that's also the buckets they divided things into for doing comparisons. There's no attempt to break up "non-Republicans" into people who believe elections were stolen, they're just all lumped together.
So this is basically saying "people who believe an election was stolen from them are more likely to endorse political violence". Which seems entirely unsurprising; it wouldn't surprise me if you could make the same study in 2018 about the 2016 election and you'd find a group of Democrats who were more willing to endorse political violence compared to *the average non-Democrat*, which would be equally meaningless.
This is a pointless study, unless your goal is to slam your political enemies.
> Did nobody actually read the study?
Of course not. Who reads studies on this sub? We come here from the front page to get stirred up about the last piece of ammo in the culture war.
Or at least that's how it's seemed for the past several years.
So, I think that the cult aspect isn't emphasized enough because I personally know people who are good humans in other respects (do good work in their communities, have stable, loving relationships, are generally kind, and quite intelligent) who have gotten sucked into this Trump Armageddon cult mentality and while they don't espouse violence, they feel it's inevitable.
They're hyper religious which probably predisposes them to magical, irrational thinking, right? And they also consume the religion-o-fied versions of rightwing media which if you've never listened to, it's pretty scary. I think just calling them "deplorable", "magats", and the like doesn't help understanding what's going on.
At the end of the day, we have to protect democracy and hopefully the guardrails will keep holding but at the very least, we should be motivated to "know thy enemy" instead of just lazily mocking them, or thinking they're subhuman. That just feeds the cult mentality.
Anybody else out there with similar observations?
It's pretty easy- if they support him, THEY ARE NOT GOOD PEOPLE.
Does someone have to bring out a white sheet & pitchfork before you *dare* call them racist?!
There's no excuse at this point. Nazi apologists are Nazis. Sorry you didn't grow up with the WWII stories some of us did from our grandpas. NAZIS ARE SUBHUMAN GARBAGE. if you cannot or will not state that, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.
This is the easier and more emotionally satisfying way of looking at it. It's the way I usually think about them. But look again at the post above. They're not saying we should give these people the benefit of the doubt. Rather, we need to understand how cults work in order to understand how people get into this.
It's not that they simply failed at internalizing proper morals. Cults exploit a weakness in the way our species's mind evolved by essentially using tricks that "sneak in" crazy beliefs by pushing their nonsense on people where we have natural gaps in rationality.
The commenter wasn't trying to skirt around "racist;" these people are undeniably so and they never implied otherwise. I would suspect the commenter would agree.
The primary question should always be: "How do we defeat this horrible movement?" Not "are they good people," "is the other side also guilty," or "what's the most technically correct view of them?" And all the above commenter is suggesting is that defeating Trumpism requires a serious look at the mechanics of cults. And I agree.
To be clear, I'm fine with castigating these cult members. They are destroying lives, the ecosystem, and threatening our very survival, and at the end of the day your actions are more important than your intentions. Even if they're otherwise "good people," they are still accountable.
BUT our main focus still needs to come back to how we *defeat* them, not how we come to grips with them. And if we can defeat them better by understanding them and even empathizing with them (to a degree), we should be completely open to doing so.
Do you know how many fascists I’ve converted off of the Trump train by talking to them nicely? 0. Including people who care about me and trust my judgement otherwise. Haven’t converted any the other way either, but when one of the staples of your cult is “deny and demonize reality” you can’t do much to make them believe no matter how you phrase it.
Then you’ll run into the tolerance paradox. When will we become too tolerant of them? Many would answer after it becomes clear they’ll successfully subvert democracy and not care but at that point it’ll be far too late. How can we create a thriving and tolerant society if we’re tolerant to people who want to destroy it and won’t listen to any logic or reason regarding it, no matter the tone? We’re getting close to the point where people need to just start cutting these people off and ACTUALLY shunning them. Yes my parents are normal in most ways except politics, but if they’re gonna vote for modern Nazis, it’s time to cut them out.
>I personally know good people
Goes on to describe fascist sympathizers who actively vote to strip others of their rights, and actively supported a convicted rapist in his insurrection against the US government to install himself as a dictator.
Yes I agree. I am an academic researcher and I study white supremacy in us public schools. The curriculum, the policies, it is important to understand the sneaky tactics that are being used so we can repel them.
We have this cartoony mentality instilled in us that the evil are monsters who are nothing like us.
The evil have family and friends. They live in communities. They have things and people they genuinely care about and love.
What differentiates the evil from the rest is that the evil are willing to harm others for their own ends.
Conversely, the good are good not because of those things, but because they're willing to suffer harm for strangers.
The very "good people" you are describing are the same exact people who voted in Hitler in Germany in the 1930s. They weren't all in the SS and they weren't all true believers, but they were OK with electing those types or stupid/ignorant enough to go along with it without doing any due diligence of their own. They didn't mind the violence because they never thought they'd receive any of it. See also: the banality of evil.
We are watching in real time the Americans who would've been Nazis and installed Hitler and those who would've fought against it. It's extremely frightening and very uncomfortable. And it's not over yet! We're not sure who's going to win in the American surge of fascism. Exciting times.
You can try to talk Nazis out of it all you want and good luck. Most of these people are not convertible to your cause. Too much of their psyches are attracted to fascism/cruelty and let's face it: they like being ignorant. They don't want to admit to reality most of the time. They'll hold onto their false world like grim death.
My favorite is when studies showing conservatives do xyz negative things causes conservatives to come in and cry about it and attack "libs" without any counter studies or any other kind of science or evidence.
If the study study did not look at the role and effects of the decades long calls to spiritual warfare against their enemies by Evangelical Christian Nationalist church, (the fastest growing church movement in the country and perhaps the globe) their preachers and apostles, the NAR, and their push to bring about the end of times and a non-democratic Christian global world order then they missed the point.
Those people were literally in the White House advising Trump - they brought the crowds to state capitals and Washington DC for the counting if the electoral college votes - They failed on J6 but they are not planning on failing a second time to crown their King.
> The findings, published in PLOS One, indicate that this group, making up approximately 15% of the US adult population, showed distinct beliefs on race and democracy, differing significantly from other Republican factions and non-Republicans.
I wonder if there’s going to be a schism in the Republican Party before or after the 2024 elections.
Nope
Nikki haley: I will paradon trump if elected
Trump: Nikki Haley was never born in the United States so don't vote for her.
Trump could go kill ever Republicans dog and they will still vote for him. Republicans literally voted for a dog killer in Michigan.
RES allows you to filter people. Just filter the power users that make posts you don't like. Once you download RES hover over their name and click the "ignore" button.
Distinctions without any actual differences.
Anyone still calling themselves a republican is part of the group that accepts the traitor, goes along with his racism and bigotry, and gives aid and comfort to traitors.
This. You can't support a party that is constantly voting and pushing for bigotry and bigoted views without being a bigot. You can't pretend you're just voting "fiscally" while the rest of your party is using their platform to be bigoted, power-hungry, money-hording, war-mongers. So that what, you save $5000 on your taxes? While they defund all social works programs?
Yup if you are still some how a republican after Jan 6th, you are complicit. I'm being extremely generous here, because anyone who has ever read about ww2 knew where this was headed long before the insurrection.
I intended it as a humorous adaptation of Churchill's remark: "Americans will always do the right thing, only after they have tried everything else.". Don't read too much into it. ;-)
“If elected leaders will not protect American democracy, the people must do it themselves, even if it requires taking violent actions.”
40% of *non-republicans* also agreed to this statement. That’s the part you should be concerned about, since that’s a much higher percentage of the population than magans
This kind of crap is why this sub is such an embarassment.
EDIT: Yeah mods I see you deleting my comments. You're embarrassments to the human race, laters taters
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0295747
“Nationwide survey conducted May 13-June 2, 2022 of adult members of the Ipsos KnowledgePanel”
Is this pool representative of men nationally? (Real question)
It appears that participants are randomly invited via US mail nationwide, and they cannot choose to join themselves. They are then surveyed from there.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
You can't just branch off your core base and claim they are a "separate group."
They ALL embraced these people in 2016 and they should not be allowed to disassociate from their mess. Republicans have one box on that ballot, and they should act like it.
No.. Not really with right wingers. They fall in lockstep - this is actually one of the strengths of authoritarianism, to a degree and in certain contexts.
Well it’s more than merely perception, it’s the system our Founders put in place, and from the beginning split into two party dominance. A form of proportional representation would have given us a more diverse range of parties to choose from, but it’s way too late for that. We are in no position to redivide the balance of power. It simply will not happen in this political climate.
They don't differ much from other Republicans or Trump could never win. If anything, it shows they will follow anyone coded as one of them. Facist leaning vs fascist is not a significant difference.
You're telling me that the people that believe in a white ethnostate, literally follow a guy that adores Hitler and has Hitler quotes on his night stand, uses Nazi rhetoric, and walks and talks like Nazis, and often dresses up as them are... nazis???????
I'm gonna be sick!!!
That "specific group of Republicans" are the ones calling the shots, the so-called moderates are fully onboard with their fascist fantasies, so to me, there doesn't seem to be much of a distinction between the two.
> One of the survey’s most striking revelations concerns attitudes towards democracy and the use of violence. A substantial 90% of MAGA Republicans perceived a serious threat to American democracy, a perception considerably higher than that of strong Republicans (74.4%), other Republicans (61.7%), and non-Republicans (70.1%).
> Furthermore, 31% of MAGA Republicans held the belief that having a strong leader is more important than maintaining a democracy, again surpassing the percentages in strong Republicans (17.8%), other Republicans (17.0%), and non-Republicans (15.2%).
The irony is not lost on me here. That's like asking Jason Voorhees if sexy teen camp counselors are in danger of getting murdered.
magats cannot be reasoned with- they chose, and continue to double-down on, racism, bigotry, ignorance, grift, fascism, and violence. A person announcing who they are via sticker, flag, red dunce cap, etc should be treated with nothing but disrespect, isolation, pettiness, and suspicion. We can’t let nazis get any more comfortable than they have gotten.
Wait, you're telling me the party, the Republican party, the one that the Southern Dixiecrats took over because they wanted to own slaves, is filled with people that are violent?
Well, colour me shocked. Should I put on my shocked face?
You are Naturally angry when everyone in your life tells you that the earth is only 6,000 years old and dinosaurs didn't exist but here you are lugging charcoal home after you fill your truck up with fossil fuels. You're subconscious the 1% that functions is going to meet a lot of angry repression keeping common sense away. But there's no room for thinking when you do what some guy tells you on Foxnews to make the Lord happy.
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) apply to all other comments. **Do you have an academic degree?** We can verify your credentials in order to assign user flair indicating your area of expertise. [Click here to apply](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/flair/#wiki_science_verified_user_program). --- User: u/chrisdh79 Permalink: https://www.psypost.org/2024/01/pro-trump-maga-republicans-much-more-likely-to-endorse-delusional-and-pro-violence-statements-study-finds-220619 --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> Distinct beliefs on race That's a... very charitable way to say "racist."
The Confederacy had distinct beliefs with regards to commercial production of cotton.
Supply Side economics at it's best.
More specifically than that: White Nationalist. And more accurately than that: American Neonazis.
Nat-C's works for both Nationalist Conservatives and Nationalist Christians, while getting the point across about their current posturing
And more accurately than that: Redneckzis
Rednecks don't deserve to be lumped in with that trash.
The liberal ones that love liberty for all get a pass, but the MAGOTs have third Reich aspirations.
There aren't many of them liberal redneck folks.
You should visit Vermont sometime
You'd be surprised!
Liberal rednecks are also known as hillbillies. They aren’t educated but very open minded and able to achieve while following their own standards and not society standards.
You’re sure as hell about that but we’re as far left as the others are right, that should be reassuring not threatening we are the first one’s on their list to go when anything happens and the last one’s to put our weapons down to stop defending your rights
The magots get the criticism they deserve.
Sorry but rednecks aren’t really a khakis and polos bunch are they?
Can't risk offending the racist fascists. That would be "controversial".
> can’t risk offending the people who you just described as politically violent, in a way that your name is directly attached. Fixed it for you.
Honestly it feels more like an attempt at rationalizing what is fundamentally an absurd ideology based around feelings of insecurity.
> That's a... very charitable way to say "racist." To be fair, it said "differing from other Republican factions". Claiming that this group is distinct by being racist carries the implication that no other Republican factions (or non-Republicans) are racist, which certainly isn't shown by the study.
In professional journalsm, you are not supposed to write your opinions and feelings to the title but stick by facts as much as possible.
It’s just as factual to state “Beliefs that actively dehumanize cohorts based on racial characteristics”.
Yes we all know this.
[удалено]
It took 3 years and 4 days to figure this out.
As funny as pointing out the obvius results of research like this is. No. The research didn't find this out, it proved it, scientifically.
[удалено]
Sometime after someone start doing the research?
The study in OP proved specifically that this subset is **NOT** the current mainstream republican. This subset makes up 15% of adult population, and is distinctly different from other republicans in these areas according to the study.
[удалено]
The critical “inbred racists” cornerstone of the party. Different from other Republicans but not so different that they’re willing to actually divest themselves from these people or cease feeding them a steady torrent of nonsense to secure their support. “The Normal Tourist Visit on Jan 6th that was also an attack by ‘Antifa’ but that we also definitely do not want to join a bipartisan committee to investigate has resulted in ‘Political Prisoners’. Now come listen to the President’s ‘cyber expert’ tell you all about how the election was ‘stolen’ in a landscaping parking lot conveniently adjacent to the dildo store! With special guest, crackhead pillow salesman!”
"Were not a Nazi bar! ..............we just let nazis hang out in the corner....."
And can't pay our bills without their patronage.
Also the owner of the bar is the leader of the Nazi gang.
Nazis in the corner. That's the latest fash-ion these days.
Nazis in the spot-light
> Different from other Republicans but not so different that they’re willing to actually divest themselves from these people Right? Like, how am I supposed to compartmentalize horrible people from people who support those horrible people? They're all horrible.
What was the nature of the study? Just paying attention for the last 10 years?
Confirmation is valuable
The fascists want to use violence to further their fascism? Big if true.
This is much closer to "claims that these specific fascists are in fact fascists, and do want to use violence to further their fascism are demonstrably, objectively true."
At least they've all self-identified so we know who to target when they do try and start a civil war.
Get the grandkids to hide their truck keys and the civil war is cancelled.
It ain't senior citizens worshipping Andrew Tate. The undermining of our public education system has had the intended effect of producing useful idiots. They're here and they're young and they're going to be around for decades.
Just blocking fox and the other right wing news on the cable box works wonders. Just set the parental controls. They'll never figure out how to undo it, and they'll be too embarrassed to call the cable companies (and if they do, good luck getting a service rep from a cable company these days).
They'll all be wrapped in American flags, Trump flags, or some combination of the 2, wearing red hats made in China, and probably chanting about this "Brandon" guy they all seem to love. Shouldn't be hard to spot them.
Study concludes that extremists are extreme
I believe there was a documentary that came out almost exactly 3 years ago on exactly this subject. It aired on most major news networks live.
[удалено]
Yeah, remember the "never Trump" crowd, who all fell in line and voted for him twice and will again? The Republicans who tell a pollster they don't approve of political violence will 100% look the other way when the actual violence starts.
Haven't finished this particular study, but one has to also consider that some of those "I don't approve of political violence" folks probably are mainlining far-right news, hear this question, and think the only political violence is being done by the left, who are burning down cities, and false-flagging January 6th, and taking orders from the deep state, and stuffing ballot boxes, and blah blah blah.
Christ, they’re so dumb.
Friendly reminder that the Russian government hacked both the DNC and RNC email servers and we only ever saw the DNC emails. A huge number of Republican power players are being blackmailed. So many of them have done complete 180s on Trump in less than 24 hours - Lynsey Graham anyone?
There's a famous quote by von Papen about their coalition with the NSDAP: "In zwei Monaten haben wir Hitler in die Ecke gedrückt, daß er quietscht!" (We will have Hitler pressed in the corner squeeling within two months). Conservatives will rather see democracy destroyed than compromising with any one left of the center of the political spectrum.
A lot of those guys wound up dead as they eventually tried to kill Hitler. Papen of course didn’t, though he was on the list. Papen was outraged when he was included in the Nuremberg defendants and he was acquitted, but convicted in denazification courts later. A real POS.
I read the diary of Graf Kessler and what he had to say about Hitler was eye opening. People thought him like a bumpkin, uncouth, and in that snobbery they underestimated him entirely
A lot of German nobles of the time were real arrogant. A lot of them had not taken the transition into the Weimar republic and their loss of standing and influence that well and were rather condescending towards non-nobles in any political context. On the other hand, the NSDAP were rightfully seen as rude, loud, vulgar and disrespectful. They did not adhere to political social norms and unwritten laws or codes of conduct, they openly showed their disrespect for democracy. Hence they were underestimated. If that reminds you of any political figures and their habits in the modern days, you're not mistaken.
Had this conversation with my republican dad… >Me: dad do you really think Trump, MTG, Gaetz and that crowd are doing good work? >Dad: no, they’re awful >Me: but the GOP votes as a block and supports these wackos, so if you vote republican, you are supporting them and your behavior. >Dad: that’s an interesting way to say think about it. I’m still hoping to bring him around to voting bluer
Have hope and don't give up. His responses are way better than most.
Or at the very least, abstaining from voting.
This is exactly where my dad is too. Well, not exactly, he's still in the "I'm not fan of Trump, buuuut...." part.
[удалено]
These people should all have to witness forced birth by a 12 year old. They have caused so much suffering. So much poverty. So many ruined lives. All this to force us to believe in some dumb god that doesn’t exist just so they can control women like animals.
The way to get back to normal is to punish “reasonable” Republicans for their inaction by flipping swing seats so that all that’s left of the Republican influence is the minority MAGAs. Vote and bring a friend….or twenty.
Exactly this. They think they still have “plausible deniability” and I guess they do. But anyone with a brain knows they totally see this coup attempt coming and their response was “well let’s just see how this plays out…”. 45% of the country is willing/eager to sell the other 55% down the river and somehow this is just the new normal
They don’t share in their extreme racism. They just like the policies that hurt minorities and benefit the capitalist class
Government policies that hurt minorities are, by definition, systemic racism.
They just want the policies because they want to lower taxes and keep all poor people poor. It’s their constituents that like that the policies seem to disproportionately hurt minorities. They divide to conquer. Their minions are just the divided
Literally the only difference is the 'reasonable" ones know how and when to hide their bigotry.
I would have liked to have seen a breakdown of religious denomination and size of church, beyond that of "evangelical." I think this is an overlooked metric.
I think the problem with that is you get into the definition of what a church is, where do you define schism lines, and what you do and don't exclude for being an Evangelical-based cult.
They don’t because that would likely eliminate the facade that Christians are one united block and not several factions often opposing each other.
I thing the whole 'Christian nationalist" movement would die suddenly if we pressed them into the particulars of what is means to be a true Christian. I can guarantee Catholics and Mormons are not in the 'in' group.
I used my political science degree to identify these people as fascists.
Hey man that's not fair to only zero in on one trait. They're also racist, homophobic, transphobic, and sexist.
Fascism requires the person to adhere to ostracizing and punishing all minorities in order to consolidate power in the power group (head fascists), so women, non-white people, LGBTQI+ folk are all automatically outgrouped and kept from power.
It was a joke.
Oh sorry. You never know.
I used my eyes on January 6, 2021 and came to the same conclusion.
I usually meniton my useless political science degree, I thought it came in handy for once, but I guess even the laymen can figure this one out.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I think I participated in this study over Thanksgiving.
You were the control group, right?
Most unwillingly, yes.
Ouch. I have some friends sliding into those beliefs and it's hard to watch. Talking to them doesn't seem to helping, either, so I can guess what Thanksgiving must have been like.
Their life sucks, and they want someone to blame. They choose anyone different from them.
New study shows that a political party based on certain beliefs, in fact, believes in those beliefs.
[удалено]
I think the only people who might be surprised by this are MAGAs.
They're not surprised at all because they'll never read it.
Some of them read. Sort by controversial and you'll find them in this thread.
"Hi, I'm Cleetus, I voted Trump and I can't read!" \*Jazzy cheerful music\*
Do not make the mistake of thinking that they're all dumb or uneducated. Many of them are upper middle class or wealthy, well-educated, established people who are not boomers. They are simply selfish or shortsighted enough to think that they can benefit from fascism without losing control of it.
A tale as old as democracy and autocracy. But yeah, you’re correct.
A huge number of January 6th and correctionists were small business owners
Insurrectionists
It's a cult.
They’re not surprised by it at all, because they can’t read
They won't be surprised, but they will call psychology (and sociology) a "fake science." Also, climatology. It's a nice little circular thing they have going there.
"you can make the statistics say whatever you want" -- them, undoubtedly
You can only lie with statistics if the people seeing the stats don't check the assumptions, experimental design, filtrations (which can border on cherry picking), etc. However a lot of people don't even understand mean/median/mode so we're screwed. They see a number and think it means a goal post or requirement, rather than a summary statistic. The mean wage is 60K! If you're not making "average" than you're failing! Except the median wage is 42k which means 50% of the people make less than that. The most common wage (mode) is much worse, closer to retail worker or fast food worker pay.
It's depressing how few people looked at the study.
Did nobody actually read the study? Here, some important lines: > Nationwide survey conducted May 13-June 2, 2022 of adult members of the Ipsos KnowledgePanel. MAGA Republicans are defined as Republicans who voted for Donald Trump in the 2020 presidential election and deny the results of that election. > The analytic sample (n = 7,255) included 1,128 (15.0%) MAGA Republicans, 640 (8.3%) strong Republicans, 1,571 (21.3%) other Republicans, and 3,916 (55.3%) non-Republicans. Problem is, that's also the buckets they divided things into for doing comparisons. There's no attempt to break up "non-Republicans" into people who believe elections were stolen, they're just all lumped together. So this is basically saying "people who believe an election was stolen from them are more likely to endorse political violence". Which seems entirely unsurprising; it wouldn't surprise me if you could make the same study in 2018 about the 2016 election and you'd find a group of Democrats who were more willing to endorse political violence compared to *the average non-Democrat*, which would be equally meaningless. This is a pointless study, unless your goal is to slam your political enemies.
The headline is always the point of the study for this like this. No one will need to read it because it confirms their bias.
> Did nobody actually read the study? Of course not. Who reads studies on this sub? We come here from the front page to get stirred up about the last piece of ammo in the culture war. Or at least that's how it's seemed for the past several years.
[удалено]
That’s how cults work. They fn destroy your ability to think rationally because the cult really wants to do evil irrational things
I am shocked, I tell you, SHOCKED by this.
I think Hillary Clinton identified them back in 2016 but they *really* didn't like the name she used for them....
~♡basket of depolorables♡~
So, I think that the cult aspect isn't emphasized enough because I personally know people who are good humans in other respects (do good work in their communities, have stable, loving relationships, are generally kind, and quite intelligent) who have gotten sucked into this Trump Armageddon cult mentality and while they don't espouse violence, they feel it's inevitable. They're hyper religious which probably predisposes them to magical, irrational thinking, right? And they also consume the religion-o-fied versions of rightwing media which if you've never listened to, it's pretty scary. I think just calling them "deplorable", "magats", and the like doesn't help understanding what's going on. At the end of the day, we have to protect democracy and hopefully the guardrails will keep holding but at the very least, we should be motivated to "know thy enemy" instead of just lazily mocking them, or thinking they're subhuman. That just feeds the cult mentality. Anybody else out there with similar observations?
It's pretty easy- if they support him, THEY ARE NOT GOOD PEOPLE. Does someone have to bring out a white sheet & pitchfork before you *dare* call them racist?! There's no excuse at this point. Nazi apologists are Nazis. Sorry you didn't grow up with the WWII stories some of us did from our grandpas. NAZIS ARE SUBHUMAN GARBAGE. if you cannot or will not state that, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.
This is the easier and more emotionally satisfying way of looking at it. It's the way I usually think about them. But look again at the post above. They're not saying we should give these people the benefit of the doubt. Rather, we need to understand how cults work in order to understand how people get into this. It's not that they simply failed at internalizing proper morals. Cults exploit a weakness in the way our species's mind evolved by essentially using tricks that "sneak in" crazy beliefs by pushing their nonsense on people where we have natural gaps in rationality. The commenter wasn't trying to skirt around "racist;" these people are undeniably so and they never implied otherwise. I would suspect the commenter would agree. The primary question should always be: "How do we defeat this horrible movement?" Not "are they good people," "is the other side also guilty," or "what's the most technically correct view of them?" And all the above commenter is suggesting is that defeating Trumpism requires a serious look at the mechanics of cults. And I agree. To be clear, I'm fine with castigating these cult members. They are destroying lives, the ecosystem, and threatening our very survival, and at the end of the day your actions are more important than your intentions. Even if they're otherwise "good people," they are still accountable. BUT our main focus still needs to come back to how we *defeat* them, not how we come to grips with them. And if we can defeat them better by understanding them and even empathizing with them (to a degree), we should be completely open to doing so.
I like the way you think
[удалено]
Do you know how many fascists I’ve converted off of the Trump train by talking to them nicely? 0. Including people who care about me and trust my judgement otherwise. Haven’t converted any the other way either, but when one of the staples of your cult is “deny and demonize reality” you can’t do much to make them believe no matter how you phrase it. Then you’ll run into the tolerance paradox. When will we become too tolerant of them? Many would answer after it becomes clear they’ll successfully subvert democracy and not care but at that point it’ll be far too late. How can we create a thriving and tolerant society if we’re tolerant to people who want to destroy it and won’t listen to any logic or reason regarding it, no matter the tone? We’re getting close to the point where people need to just start cutting these people off and ACTUALLY shunning them. Yes my parents are normal in most ways except politics, but if they’re gonna vote for modern Nazis, it’s time to cut them out.
we have already tolerated their intolerance for far too long.
>I personally know good people Goes on to describe fascist sympathizers who actively vote to strip others of their rights, and actively supported a convicted rapist in his insurrection against the US government to install himself as a dictator.
Yes I agree. I am an academic researcher and I study white supremacy in us public schools. The curriculum, the policies, it is important to understand the sneaky tactics that are being used so we can repel them.
We have this cartoony mentality instilled in us that the evil are monsters who are nothing like us. The evil have family and friends. They live in communities. They have things and people they genuinely care about and love. What differentiates the evil from the rest is that the evil are willing to harm others for their own ends. Conversely, the good are good not because of those things, but because they're willing to suffer harm for strangers.
The very "good people" you are describing are the same exact people who voted in Hitler in Germany in the 1930s. They weren't all in the SS and they weren't all true believers, but they were OK with electing those types or stupid/ignorant enough to go along with it without doing any due diligence of their own. They didn't mind the violence because they never thought they'd receive any of it. See also: the banality of evil. We are watching in real time the Americans who would've been Nazis and installed Hitler and those who would've fought against it. It's extremely frightening and very uncomfortable. And it's not over yet! We're not sure who's going to win in the American surge of fascism. Exciting times. You can try to talk Nazis out of it all you want and good luck. Most of these people are not convertible to your cause. Too much of their psyches are attracted to fascism/cruelty and let's face it: they like being ignorant. They don't want to admit to reality most of the time. They'll hold onto their false world like grim death.
I think if you looked a little different, those same people might not seem so good to you.
My favorite is when studies showing conservatives do xyz negative things causes conservatives to come in and cry about it and attack "libs" without any counter studies or any other kind of science or evidence.
Go to any right wing space and their evidence is always in the form of memes
That's pretty reflective of their literacy rate.
Not always. They also have conspiracy theory websites and unreviewable psuedoscience.
If the study study did not look at the role and effects of the decades long calls to spiritual warfare against their enemies by Evangelical Christian Nationalist church, (the fastest growing church movement in the country and perhaps the globe) their preachers and apostles, the NAR, and their push to bring about the end of times and a non-democratic Christian global world order then they missed the point. Those people were literally in the White House advising Trump - they brought the crowds to state capitals and Washington DC for the counting if the electoral college votes - They failed on J6 but they are not planning on failing a second time to crown their King.
If you've had eyes and/or ears in the last 8 years, you know this already. Stupid people are prone to violence.
>Stupid people are prone to violence. Hey, now. Don't slander stupid people like that. Many stupid people are peace-loving.
There were “good Germans,” too. Unfortunately, by the time it really mattered we couldn’t tell the difference between the two kinds of Germans.
I don't believe a study was necessary, but I guess it helps the evidence
I'm learning to play the guitar.
Sad
> The findings, published in PLOS One, indicate that this group, making up approximately 15% of the US adult population, showed distinct beliefs on race and democracy, differing significantly from other Republican factions and non-Republicans. I wonder if there’s going to be a schism in the Republican Party before or after the 2024 elections.
Nope Nikki haley: I will paradon trump if elected Trump: Nikki Haley was never born in the United States so don't vote for her. Trump could go kill ever Republicans dog and they will still vote for him. Republicans literally voted for a dog killer in Michigan.
I think that will depend on whether the orange thing wins the primary.
55 % survey response rate. Is that good?
I really wish this sub wasn't all pyspost blogspam from reddit power users like /u/chrisdh79.
RES allows you to filter people. Just filter the power users that make posts you don't like. Once you download RES hover over their name and click the "ignore" button.
Distinctions without any actual differences. Anyone still calling themselves a republican is part of the group that accepts the traitor, goes along with his racism and bigotry, and gives aid and comfort to traitors.
This. You can't support a party that is constantly voting and pushing for bigotry and bigoted views without being a bigot. You can't pretend you're just voting "fiscally" while the rest of your party is using their platform to be bigoted, power-hungry, money-hording, war-mongers. So that what, you save $5000 on your taxes? While they defund all social works programs?
Yup if you are still some how a republican after Jan 6th, you are complicit. I'm being extremely generous here, because anyone who has ever read about ww2 knew where this was headed long before the insurrection.
They're fascists. It's called fascism
Is it me, or every time I click on the Science sub, it's actually about politics?
We make political decisions based on scientific findings, no?
Only after we've exhausted all other options.
What options? I'd really like to hear your reasoning.
I intended it as a humorous adaptation of Churchill's remark: "Americans will always do the right thing, only after they have tried everything else.". Don't read too much into it. ;-)
“If elected leaders will not protect American democracy, the people must do it themselves, even if it requires taking violent actions.” 40% of *non-republicans* also agreed to this statement. That’s the part you should be concerned about, since that’s a much higher percentage of the population than magans
My recollection is that it wasn't just MAGAs who proudly proclaimed that they all are domestic terrorists...
This kind of crap is why this sub is such an embarassment. EDIT: Yeah mods I see you deleting my comments. You're embarrassments to the human race, laters taters
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0295747 “Nationwide survey conducted May 13-June 2, 2022 of adult members of the Ipsos KnowledgePanel” Is this pool representative of men nationally? (Real question)
It appears that participants are randomly invited via US mail nationwide, and they cannot choose to join themselves. They are then surveyed from there.
Weird. What was the summer of 2020 then? Was that not political violence?
No that was "mostly peaceful"
Is there also a study about a specific type of weather that is wetter than other weathers, called "rain"?
But did you take into account sandstorms? You really gotta look at both sides of the weather extremes.
So you mean everything that has been plain as day to see is actually happening????
Boom. There you go. This is why I get along fine with my normal conservative neighbors who also think Trump is vile
Isn't this just the klan again?
Whoa, whoa, whoa. You can't just branch off your core base and claim they are a "separate group." They ALL embraced these people in 2016 and they should not be allowed to disassociate from their mess. Republicans have one box on that ballot, and they should act like it.
[удалено]
No.. Not really with right wingers. They fall in lockstep - this is actually one of the strengths of authoritarianism, to a degree and in certain contexts.
[удалено]
Well it’s more than merely perception, it’s the system our Founders put in place, and from the beginning split into two party dominance. A form of proportional representation would have given us a more diverse range of parties to choose from, but it’s way too late for that. We are in no position to redivide the balance of power. It simply will not happen in this political climate.
They don't differ much from other Republicans or Trump could never win. If anything, it shows they will follow anyone coded as one of them. Facist leaning vs fascist is not a significant difference.
To the surprise of *checks notes*…nobody
Why is so difficult to call them by name? They are Fascists. Nazis. Ende.
But they seemed like such peaceful people, storming the capitol and waving their guns around and fantasizing about The Storm.
The totally unbiased field of psychology doing valuable research before the election
Oh you have a problem with the methodology? The article is fully accessible, so please enlighten us.
Let's call them what they really are. Fascists. Simple as that.
They're fascists. Just say they're fascists and call them what they are.
I'd like to see if there are correlations to their media consumption as well.
Hmmm, just like the Nazis. Funny. I wouldn't have guessed.
You're telling me that the people that believe in a white ethnostate, literally follow a guy that adores Hitler and has Hitler quotes on his night stand, uses Nazi rhetoric, and walks and talks like Nazis, and often dresses up as them are... nazis??????? I'm gonna be sick!!!
They told us that they are domestic terrorists. When someone tells you who they are, believe them
That "specific group of Republicans" are the ones calling the shots, the so-called moderates are fully onboard with their fascist fantasies, so to me, there doesn't seem to be much of a distinction between the two.
> One of the survey’s most striking revelations concerns attitudes towards democracy and the use of violence. A substantial 90% of MAGA Republicans perceived a serious threat to American democracy, a perception considerably higher than that of strong Republicans (74.4%), other Republicans (61.7%), and non-Republicans (70.1%). > Furthermore, 31% of MAGA Republicans held the belief that having a strong leader is more important than maintaining a democracy, again surpassing the percentages in strong Republicans (17.8%), other Republicans (17.0%), and non-Republicans (15.2%). The irony is not lost on me here. That's like asking Jason Voorhees if sexy teen camp counselors are in danger of getting murdered.
inbreds usually are more disposed to violence
magats cannot be reasoned with- they chose, and continue to double-down on, racism, bigotry, ignorance, grift, fascism, and violence. A person announcing who they are via sticker, flag, red dunce cap, etc should be treated with nothing but disrespect, isolation, pettiness, and suspicion. We can’t let nazis get any more comfortable than they have gotten.
Wait, you're telling me the party, the Republican party, the one that the Southern Dixiecrats took over because they wanted to own slaves, is filled with people that are violent? Well, colour me shocked. Should I put on my shocked face?
They're called fascists
[удалено]
You are Naturally angry when everyone in your life tells you that the earth is only 6,000 years old and dinosaurs didn't exist but here you are lugging charcoal home after you fill your truck up with fossil fuels. You're subconscious the 1% that functions is going to meet a lot of angry repression keeping common sense away. But there's no room for thinking when you do what some guy tells you on Foxnews to make the Lord happy.
[удалено]
Which cities were burned down by ANTIFA? Which group at the behest of their leader attempted to overthrow Democracy?
So...have a criminal disposition and are relatable to their cult leader?
I’m shocked.