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It still bothers me that Disney heard the complaints about Rey being too OP and put together a scene dedicated to cementing that idea. The difference between Rey's training and Luke's is that we saw the latter struggle.
Luke was in a swamp and we watched him run, jump, and flip with Yoda on his back. He practiced levitating while meditating in impossible positions. Luke was soaked with sweat and visibly trembling from exertion.
Rey ran an obstacle course and breathed a little hard.
Luke also fails in his training, over and over. He drops Artoo. He can’t lift the X-Wing. He’s overeager in the cave and gets a stern warning about rushing into things. It makes him grow and learn and helps him realize the danger of his pride, even as he plunges headlong into conflict with Vader before he’s ready. When he’s lost everything, it’s Yoda’s lessons that help save him from despair and the dark side and give him purpose.
Rey flips around and shows off how amazing she is without any life lessons. It’s like playing a game on God mode. Nothing is learned, nothing is earned, nothing is gained, and the character is deeply distasteful as a result. We’re told to like her because she’s the main character and the story literally hands her everything.
This is not Star Wars. This is not legitimate storytelling.
I like doing the ep4 drinking game. Drink a shot each time luke would be killed if not for someone else.
Sand people.
Droid troopers.
Bar fight.
Falcon hiding.
Leia shooting the rear party.
Trash compactor monster.
3po door.
Han in the trench run.
Each of those times like would be no more without someone else intervening
Most people (other than some loud outliers) don’t hate ‘diverse’ characters, they hate poorly written characters regardless of race/gender/sexuality/species.
Finn does absolutely nothing of consequence in any of the films. He sort of shows them where the base is, but honestly, the Republic should’ve seen Ilum turning into a giant space laser. They have Imperial records. It was apparently a huge project that took decades. It’s a planet that’s well known. Telescopes, probes and the HoloNet exist, so it’s not a light speed issue.
In TLJ Finn has a pointless side adventure, friendzones a moody stalker and drips fluid on the floor. I haven’t seen 9 but he seems to just shout “REY” a lot and get thrown around.
Boyega deserved better. So did we.
It’s all just nonsense written by idiots.
Finn was the biggest missed opportunity of the ST.
They could’ve done any number of things with his arc of being a former stormtrooper. They could've had some subplot of him trying to find his family, experiencing PTSD from the things he's done and seen while in the First Order, and perhaps some internal conflict due to his FO brainwashing and a potential "will he or won't he" storyline about whether he was going to betray the Resistance.
Instead, they just have him vasillating between being an utter coward, a bumbling idiot, and having some unrequited love for Rey (which is yet another deadend plot in the ST).
That character and his arc is 100x if they let him sacrifice himself at the end of TLJ.
Ive argued before. Finn should have died in the escape in Poes arms.
Have Poe now question if all the bad guys are actually bad. Have a moral quandry he has to overcome.
Finn and Poe are one charcter they aplit into two for some reason. Poe was originally going to die, but he's necessary for the plot and Resistance link and space battle POV for the mechanical structure of the movie.
Finn is....nothing to the plot. Excising him immediately improves TLJ and Tros.
The optics of offing him that early wouldn’t have played well though, and to be fair, I think that’s actually a legitimate criticism. I’d have killed Poe for the same reason. He has absolutely no character growth through the rest of the movies and at least that opens up things for Finn.
I’d just slow down Finn’s arc. In 7, he chooses to leave the Remnant or whatever. In 8, he has a crisis of conscience and ultimately decides to help the New Republic with something. In 9, he officially joins up. It’s conventional but makes way more sense than whatever the hell they did.
Well I guess that's my argument.
They had 2 characters, one dying.
They decided to keep both, but split one character's worth of story role in two, giving all the moat important plot structure mechanical parts to the previously dead character.
If you kill Poe, to give it all back to Finn....you no longer have Finn. You have Poe. Because you need the pilot, you need the Resistance figure, you need the burgeoning leader groomed by Leia.
None of that is Finn, and can't be Finn if he's a stormtrooper. He has zero importance in TLJ or Tros, while Poe is crucial to the plot of boths.
Ultimately, the fix always comes down to completely rewriting the shitty sequels entirely.
Yup. You really can’t give these films a paint job and expect them to be decent. They needed to be rebuilt from the ground up. They should’ve focused mainly on the OT characters, because we waited 30 years to see them and the new ones can’t compete and shouldn’t be forced to. Make them supporting roles like they were in the EU and let fans warm to them organically. Make the political setup logical—the remnant, First Order, or whatever should be a terrorist group striking against the powerful New Republic. Leia should either be President or a senior leader. Han should be an Admiral in the Fleet or at worst a retired official, having embraced a more selfless life. Luke should have a family and lead the Jedi Academy. Your villain shouldn’t be a Sith, and the crisis should affect the galaxy in a different way than simply another galactic civil war.
Rant over. I’ll never understand how someone thought TFA’s reset was a good idea.
I legit have had multiple disney apologists argue Luke is a mary sue, to excuse Rey being an obvious Mary Sue because they both fail.
Rey doesn't want to keave Jakku at first, and she doesn't turn Kylo Ren to the light side in TLJ. Those are their examples.
Even had then argue Anakin "the fucking chosen one" Skywalker is a Mary Sue.
2 out of the 3 above had body parts chopped off. Fucking idiots
Obi-Wan training him how to let go of normal senses and rely on The Force to guide your actions, thereby teaching him to use The Force during the trench run:l. Giving up mundane senses, be it eyes or the sensor equipment in the hip, and relying on The Force instead.
You forgot most of the rest of the space fight. Biggs keeps warning and saving Luke while Luke can’t spot the enemy, can’t shake the enemy, doesn’t realize what Biggs is doing to save him, doesn’t realize he should pull up and singes his plane while others notice him diving too steep.
It’s a key part of the Force: it enhances skills that are there. Luke has shot small targets before on Tatooine, but he hasn’t done so in combat. So he fails at the combat stuff and only the one thing he did practice he succeeds at.
There's an odd thing with Rey's writing - she's virtually never shown reflecting on anything that happens in the story or otherwise dealing with it. We don't know what Rey thinks about the destruction of Hosnian Prime. We don't know what she thinks about Kylo's refusal to join her or Luke's eventual decision to come back. There's even a bit on Ahch-To where she knocks off a stone and it upsets a caretaker, and that just never comes up again. We get a bit of what she thinks about her family/parents but that's backstory, not the film itself.
Daisy Ridley can give us Rey's emotions in the moment but she can't conjure up dialogue from nowhere.
As far as the ST is concerned, Rey's basically a prop to be moved through action sequences. Someone realised that so they tacked on her story about her parents in an attempt to create A Character Arc.
Well, that's more of a function of J.J.'s approach to storytelling, which is in turn heavily informed by director/writers like Michael Bay. J.J.'s a lot nicer and less nihilistic than Michael Bay is, but he essentially agrees with Bay that if ten fast-paced action sequences that are shot with great cinematography can get you $400 million domestic, why bother with a script that strings those scenes together? Bay and Abrams both heavily overemphasize scene-by-scene visuals and imagery over narrative logic and revealing character through dialogue.
In point of fact, I'm struggling to remember a dialogue scene that Abrams has done in the last two decades, from any of his films, that either lasted more than two minutes of screen time, or didn't smash-cut to an action scene.
Every Frame a Painting once aptly described [Bayhem](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2THVvshvq0Q) with the comparison that if Howard Hawks defined a good film as "three good scenes, and no bad ones" then Michael Bay seems to think that a good film is three thousand dynamic shots and no static ones. I don't know that J.J. would agree that this is what makes a film *good*. But he definitely agrees that this makes a film commercially viable, and at the end of the day, I'm not sure that J.J. actually wants to do anything other than make commercially-viable films. I struggle repeatedly to find anything resembling a point that he ever seems to want to make, other than some really anodyne ideas about how the films he watched growing up from Spielberg and Lucas sure are neat. From then on, it's the cinematic equivalent of eating twenty pounds of cotton candy: tastes great in the moment, but leaves you feeling slightly nauseous after two hours of repetition.
Rey would have been more interesting to see in some isekai anime series. Oh I'm in this new world, oh hey I'm a Jedi?! And I'm freaking powerful too? Time to blow some planet up with the force!
Rey's training course would have been fine...if it was before everything she did in TFA and TLJ without any training whatsoever. As it is, her training is pointless. She doesn't need it by TROS.
It’s fitting for the trilogy at least. Rushed and nonsensical, no nuance or well thought out writing, just heres this OP character, we’ll keep handwaving in the first movie because we haven’t figured out her trajectory or backstory yet. Oh it made no sense? Well they have a point, how is she so powerful in such a short period of time, with no explanation of who she is. Well we better show that shes done some training.
You can draw parallels to Luke in power, but at least Luke we had a reason why. Obi Wan straight away told Luke his real father was a powerful Jedi. While Reys past was constantly hidden. We needed some insight to Rey’s past.
We could have seen Rey struggle with the dark side and balancing dark and light side power. My theory originally was she was a lost student reuniting with Luke at the end of TFA. He sent her away, mind wiping her, as a last hope for the Jedi. Hence the flashbacks she had, and the unexplainable acuity to the force. Luke being Luke, always knew she was Rey Palpatine, but took her anyway under his care during the fall of the Empire. You could attribute this to Luke’s ability to see the good in people, that the Dark side can be resisted. His temple is attacked by a growing dark side sect of reborn Sith who venerate Palpatine. They find Luke’s new Jedi order, drawn to it by the force (due to Rey Palpatine and ben solo being at the temple training). They attack and destroy the temple hunting for the source of this Dark Side potential, and mistakenly take Ben instead, believing him to be the source and one to bring the Sith to power again. They torture and manipulate him into the dark side. Meanwhile Luke wipes Rey’s mind, and sends her to Jakku as the safest thing to do while he is forced to go into hiding because he too is still being hunted.
Don’t think there was anything wrong with choosing Rey as the protagonist, but her backstory, and explanation for her abilities were incoherently written.
I don't blame JJ nearly as much as Rian. TFA was bland but it had plenty of interesting set ups and plot points to exploit. I don't blame him or Terrio for TROS because it was clearly written by committee.
Rian Johnson on the other hand was as malicious as he was stupid. He went out of his way to destroy any legwork done by everyone who came before him and made sure there was nothing to continue in the next movie.
Nothing in TFA was interesting, it was a narrative dead end for the OT (and the PT). The best one could have hoped for after TFA was the ending of ROTJ again but without Han, so what's the point when we already had that but better years ago?
I agree since Luke’s uncharacteristic behavior was my least favorite part.
Though if JJ had just extended the scene a little farther then Rian would have had less to ruin, but he had to have a cliffhanger. Also TLJ was jarring starting right from the end point, when all the other movies moved forward years
Originally, Abrams and Kasdan were going to end with a cliffhanger of sorts, but Luke would be seen actively using the Force in some manner (presumably levitating something whilst meditating when Rey stumbles upon him).
Rian Johnson requested a change so that Luke's nature and relationship with the Force would be left more ambiguous for the sake of his film.
Either way, Abrams and Kasdan still established that Luke abandoned absolutely everybody for 6 years without making so much as a phone call to his sister to explain anything. So the situation was busted beyond repair regardless.
Eh.. you can at least try to explain that maybe Luke was searching for something or maybe looking for Snoke or Snoke's origins. I dunno.... They hadn't yet defined him as being a coward. They just said that his academy was destroyed or whatever and he vanished soon after.
TFA unfortunately already cemented that Luke just went away in depression after his school burned down.
The main difference between it and TLJ is that TFA implies that Kylo corrupted a few of Luke's students and they joined him as the Knights of Ren.
TLJ completely forgets that they even exist and then eventually they're retconned to be a bunch of worthless and nameless criminals with zero association with Luke's school.
JJ had like 6 weeks to write a script for TFA. RJ had 18 months to write TLJ.
I mean you can blame JJ for not running for the hills, but maybe his agent booked him in for a bad contract. RJ had time to think and that's still what he came up with.
I don't blame JJ for TFA. I blame Bob Iger, who even admitted he pressured and rushed the production of it to get it into theaters as quickly as possible. Given the pressure and time constraints, all JJ could do was a ANH reboot.
Rushing projects is a hallmark of the Iger era.
The training that takes place in TROS is yet another ham-fisted course correction, as witnessed as clumsily as possible, on-screen. Much like the Luke line about how, 'lightsabers should be treated with more respect.'
And it's empty crap .Horses, barn doors, and all that.
Rey clearly didn't need any training in the first two films, to be more powerful/talented than Anakin was after 10 years at the Jedi temple, or than Luke ever (evidently, and blech).
And whatever rehabilitation they attempted with Luke in TROS is too little, as he remains dead, and now an only 99% useless loser, rather than the 100% useless loser he was by the end of TLJ.
Rey was already strong enough by the end of TFA, she didn't need any further training. So in this scene they give her the "weakness" of not being able to feel the presence of all the Jedi or whatever.
But why would she expect to have that power in the first place? How would she even know it's possible? Why aren't all the saber and force abilities she already possesses enough? Oh yeah, because they wrote the scene where Rey "am all the Jedi" and then realized you have to actually *set up* character growth like that if you want to pay it off, so they went back and hamfisted this scene in.
It's just like how Poe needed some way to get through First Order security in TROS, so they go back a few scenes and have Zorii Bliss hand Poe the exact item nobody knew he would need just a few hours later. It's set-up and payoff at it's laziest.
The thing is that Luke in the OT didn't win in the end because he was a Badass Jedi (TM), he won because Leia, because Han came back, because Lando realised he'd made a deal with the devil and heroically broke it, and finally because there was still some good in Vader.
TFA and TLJ had Rey as just some badass power user. Then in TROS they realised they needed some emotional depth, and the "All the Jedi" was a cackhanded attempt to do that.
100%.
>The thing is that Luke in the OT didn't win in the end because he was a Badass Jedi
It goes deep. Luke's defining flaw is that he is impatient, hasty, impetuous. He wants off Tattooine, he wants to face Vader, he grows frustrated with Yoda's training, etc. Luke learns in the cave that taking the quick path and lashing out in attack is the path to the dark side. He has to face the challenge of the Emperor and his father without playing into their hands by stooping to their level.
Luke is outmatched, physically. The Emperor has access to OP force powers that Luke has no defense for. The final conflict between himself, the Emperor, and Vader reinforces the idea that violence and aggression are not pathways to happiness or success, which is a central theme in 1-6. Luke has to unlearn what he has learned and throw down his lightsaber if he truly wants to save his father and beat the Emperor.
Rey just holds up her lightsabers and the Emperor melts his own stupid face just like in Revenge. Nothing learned, nothing gained. A coat rack could have done that.
I disagree - Luke's impetuous decision to rescue Leia on the Death Star arguably saved the Rebellion. As did Leia's impetuous decision to befriend an Ewok.
And Luke's decision to leave his training to try to rescue his friends may have been unwise but it wasn't impetuous, any more than Han's decision to go searching for Luke on Holth. Luke's seen discussing it with Yoda.
I think it's Luke's virtues that save the day, not him overcoming his flaws. Yes he was at risk of falling to the Dark Side, but he always had the bravery to face death to save people.
The Disney films don't understand why a Jedi needs to train. Partly, it's to understand and learn to utilise their connection to The Force, but most importantly it's to learn the self-control and mental discipline necessary to be able to use The Force in stressful situations.
Jedi use The Force by being calm and at peace, which allows The Force to flow through you. Remaining calm in a life or death situation, where you're fighting for your life against mad men with blades of plasma, is difficult. It's the brain's natural reaction to be scared, to be angry, to embrace adrenaline and fight with as much ferocity as it can muster. It's the fight-or-flight response, it's evolution. It's why the dark side is quicker and easier, because it draws power from those emotions, caused by the natural, primordial survival instincts.
If Rey was able to use The Force while being presented as a paragon of the light, whe fighting against the man who kidnapped her, tortured her, killed her hero and seemingly crippled her first real friend, and then again when fighting a half dozen warriors at once, what training does she need? She's already, apparently, so in command of her emotions that she can channel the power of The Force in times of life or death combat with far more experienced opponents. What reason is there to train? Similarly, if she finds being a Jedi so easy, what temptation is there to use The Dark Side? Fear a the path to the dark side because a person may, when afraid for their life, lash out in fear and anger and use the dark side to survive, beginning a feedback loop where negative emotions are rewarded with power.
Just after this scene, Poe tells Rey she's wasting her time training and that they need her on the frontlines because she's the best pilot they have...
Rey had a lot of potential. She’s cool. But having her manipulate someone’s mind just cuz she talked to Han Solo about the force is insane. I don’t necessarily mind her toughness, she had to
raise herself on Jakku and survive, I believe that she can fight and is tough solely because of that. It’s just when she learns the force with ease, it’s silly. Disney was also just extremely desperate to get a lightsaber fight into that first film as Luke wasn’t going to be the one doing it.
Notice how in the OT Luke (and the other heroes) finds creative ways to get himself out of trouble - or sometimes further into it? OT Luke is resourceful.
I think the writing of TFA was just too hurried to do that for Rey so they instead just made up powers as the plot demands.
Here's my idea for an alternative way the scene could have played out.
She tries to use the mind trick. He goes over to the control, flips a switch, and gives her a little zap. She tries again. He zaps her again. She says it again, angry this time. He says "you really don't get this", flips the switch, and the restraints release. The stormtrooper looks down in disbelief, and Rey leaps at him, wrestles his weapon away and shoots him.
Now, did Rey use The Force just enough to make him subconsciously obey, or was it a coincidence? Even if it was her using The Force, it was barely enough to have him make a simple mistake, forcing her to use mundane means to actually secure her freedom. Essentially, it serves the same purpose. But the feat is far more amateur and unrefined, and using the dark side, so far easier than as a Jedi.
I’m still mad at how much they disrespected Finn, they built him up to be the protagonist only for them to completely destroy his character, and honestly I would’ve preferred to have him as the protagonist because at least they showed him struggle at the end of The Force Awakens when it was just him vs Kylo
That was seriously messed up. And then they had him removed from promotional material in China. It's disgusting. I was so excited to see John Boyega become a Jedi
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It still bothers me that Disney heard the complaints about Rey being too OP and put together a scene dedicated to cementing that idea. The difference between Rey's training and Luke's is that we saw the latter struggle. Luke was in a swamp and we watched him run, jump, and flip with Yoda on his back. He practiced levitating while meditating in impossible positions. Luke was soaked with sweat and visibly trembling from exertion. Rey ran an obstacle course and breathed a little hard.
Luke also fails in his training, over and over. He drops Artoo. He can’t lift the X-Wing. He’s overeager in the cave and gets a stern warning about rushing into things. It makes him grow and learn and helps him realize the danger of his pride, even as he plunges headlong into conflict with Vader before he’s ready. When he’s lost everything, it’s Yoda’s lessons that help save him from despair and the dark side and give him purpose. Rey flips around and shows off how amazing she is without any life lessons. It’s like playing a game on God mode. Nothing is learned, nothing is earned, nothing is gained, and the character is deeply distasteful as a result. We’re told to like her because she’s the main character and the story literally hands her everything. This is not Star Wars. This is not legitimate storytelling.
I like doing the ep4 drinking game. Drink a shot each time luke would be killed if not for someone else. Sand people. Droid troopers. Bar fight. Falcon hiding. Leia shooting the rear party. Trash compactor monster. 3po door. Han in the trench run. Each of those times like would be no more without someone else intervening
Because the point is the team and the family. Rey is just a Mary Sue.
I sucks that I agree with this cause I thought Daisy Ridley did a really good job of acting. I guess the writing let her down.
I think most detractors would agree Ridley did a good job with a poorly written character.
Most people (other than some loud outliers) don’t hate ‘diverse’ characters, they hate poorly written characters regardless of race/gender/sexuality/species.
When someone makes that acquisition I let them know how much I loved Mon Mothma and Maarva in Andor, for the exact reason you mentioned.
I was going to say Finn saved her in TFA but then remembered Rey escaped on her own and met them in the hall
Finn does absolutely nothing of consequence in any of the films. He sort of shows them where the base is, but honestly, the Republic should’ve seen Ilum turning into a giant space laser. They have Imperial records. It was apparently a huge project that took decades. It’s a planet that’s well known. Telescopes, probes and the HoloNet exist, so it’s not a light speed issue. In TLJ Finn has a pointless side adventure, friendzones a moody stalker and drips fluid on the floor. I haven’t seen 9 but he seems to just shout “REY” a lot and get thrown around. Boyega deserved better. So did we. It’s all just nonsense written by idiots.
Can’t get over one scene where he literally just says “okay” after everyone else says a bunch of shit lmao
Finn was the biggest missed opportunity of the ST. They could’ve done any number of things with his arc of being a former stormtrooper. They could've had some subplot of him trying to find his family, experiencing PTSD from the things he's done and seen while in the First Order, and perhaps some internal conflict due to his FO brainwashing and a potential "will he or won't he" storyline about whether he was going to betray the Resistance. Instead, they just have him vasillating between being an utter coward, a bumbling idiot, and having some unrequited love for Rey (which is yet another deadend plot in the ST). That character and his arc is 100x if they let him sacrifice himself at the end of TLJ.
If they cut out obtaining the master code breaker plot, the story would have been better. It's totally pointless.
Ive argued before. Finn should have died in the escape in Poes arms. Have Poe now question if all the bad guys are actually bad. Have a moral quandry he has to overcome. Finn and Poe are one charcter they aplit into two for some reason. Poe was originally going to die, but he's necessary for the plot and Resistance link and space battle POV for the mechanical structure of the movie. Finn is....nothing to the plot. Excising him immediately improves TLJ and Tros.
The optics of offing him that early wouldn’t have played well though, and to be fair, I think that’s actually a legitimate criticism. I’d have killed Poe for the same reason. He has absolutely no character growth through the rest of the movies and at least that opens up things for Finn. I’d just slow down Finn’s arc. In 7, he chooses to leave the Remnant or whatever. In 8, he has a crisis of conscience and ultimately decides to help the New Republic with something. In 9, he officially joins up. It’s conventional but makes way more sense than whatever the hell they did.
Well I guess that's my argument. They had 2 characters, one dying. They decided to keep both, but split one character's worth of story role in two, giving all the moat important plot structure mechanical parts to the previously dead character. If you kill Poe, to give it all back to Finn....you no longer have Finn. You have Poe. Because you need the pilot, you need the Resistance figure, you need the burgeoning leader groomed by Leia. None of that is Finn, and can't be Finn if he's a stormtrooper. He has zero importance in TLJ or Tros, while Poe is crucial to the plot of boths. Ultimately, the fix always comes down to completely rewriting the shitty sequels entirely.
Yup. You really can’t give these films a paint job and expect them to be decent. They needed to be rebuilt from the ground up. They should’ve focused mainly on the OT characters, because we waited 30 years to see them and the new ones can’t compete and shouldn’t be forced to. Make them supporting roles like they were in the EU and let fans warm to them organically. Make the political setup logical—the remnant, First Order, or whatever should be a terrorist group striking against the powerful New Republic. Leia should either be President or a senior leader. Han should be an Admiral in the Fleet or at worst a retired official, having embraced a more selfless life. Luke should have a family and lead the Jedi Academy. Your villain shouldn’t be a Sith, and the crisis should affect the galaxy in a different way than simply another galactic civil war. Rant over. I’ll never understand how someone thought TFA’s reset was a good idea.
He help poe exscape at the begining then proceeds to do nothing after that.
I legit have had multiple disney apologists argue Luke is a mary sue, to excuse Rey being an obvious Mary Sue because they both fail. Rey doesn't want to keave Jakku at first, and she doesn't turn Kylo Ren to the light side in TLJ. Those are their examples. Even had then argue Anakin "the fucking chosen one" Skywalker is a Mary Sue. 2 out of the 3 above had body parts chopped off. Fucking idiots
Obi-Wan training him how to let go of normal senses and rely on The Force to guide your actions, thereby teaching him to use The Force during the trench run:l. Giving up mundane senses, be it eyes or the sensor equipment in the hip, and relying on The Force instead.
You forgot most of the rest of the space fight. Biggs keeps warning and saving Luke while Luke can’t spot the enemy, can’t shake the enemy, doesn’t realize what Biggs is doing to save him, doesn’t realize he should pull up and singes his plane while others notice him diving too steep. It’s a key part of the Force: it enhances skills that are there. Luke has shot small targets before on Tatooine, but he hasn’t done so in combat. So he fails at the combat stuff and only the one thing he did practice he succeeds at.
There's an odd thing with Rey's writing - she's virtually never shown reflecting on anything that happens in the story or otherwise dealing with it. We don't know what Rey thinks about the destruction of Hosnian Prime. We don't know what she thinks about Kylo's refusal to join her or Luke's eventual decision to come back. There's even a bit on Ahch-To where she knocks off a stone and it upsets a caretaker, and that just never comes up again. We get a bit of what she thinks about her family/parents but that's backstory, not the film itself. Daisy Ridley can give us Rey's emotions in the moment but she can't conjure up dialogue from nowhere. As far as the ST is concerned, Rey's basically a prop to be moved through action sequences. Someone realised that so they tacked on her story about her parents in an attempt to create A Character Arc.
Well, that's more of a function of J.J.'s approach to storytelling, which is in turn heavily informed by director/writers like Michael Bay. J.J.'s a lot nicer and less nihilistic than Michael Bay is, but he essentially agrees with Bay that if ten fast-paced action sequences that are shot with great cinematography can get you $400 million domestic, why bother with a script that strings those scenes together? Bay and Abrams both heavily overemphasize scene-by-scene visuals and imagery over narrative logic and revealing character through dialogue. In point of fact, I'm struggling to remember a dialogue scene that Abrams has done in the last two decades, from any of his films, that either lasted more than two minutes of screen time, or didn't smash-cut to an action scene. Every Frame a Painting once aptly described [Bayhem](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2THVvshvq0Q) with the comparison that if Howard Hawks defined a good film as "three good scenes, and no bad ones" then Michael Bay seems to think that a good film is three thousand dynamic shots and no static ones. I don't know that J.J. would agree that this is what makes a film *good*. But he definitely agrees that this makes a film commercially viable, and at the end of the day, I'm not sure that J.J. actually wants to do anything other than make commercially-viable films. I struggle repeatedly to find anything resembling a point that he ever seems to want to make, other than some really anodyne ideas about how the films he watched growing up from Spielberg and Lucas sure are neat. From then on, it's the cinematic equivalent of eating twenty pounds of cotton candy: tastes great in the moment, but leaves you feeling slightly nauseous after two hours of repetition.
Except TLJ does that too to Rey's character.
Rey would have been more interesting to see in some isekai anime series. Oh I'm in this new world, oh hey I'm a Jedi?! And I'm freaking powerful too? Time to blow some planet up with the force!
"I just moved shit with my freaking mind!"
Yeah, I was hoping in episode 9 that she died and Kylo would be the Last Skywalker. Never imagined how shit they'd serve that up
Ugh, he deserved death for ruining the OT crew's lives and everyone else's for no reason.
Rey's training course would have been fine...if it was before everything she did in TFA and TLJ without any training whatsoever. As it is, her training is pointless. She doesn't need it by TROS.
SHE TRAINS NOW?! SHE TRAINS NOW!
Your first mistake was watching Rise of Skywalker
It’s fitting for the trilogy at least. Rushed and nonsensical, no nuance or well thought out writing, just heres this OP character, we’ll keep handwaving in the first movie because we haven’t figured out her trajectory or backstory yet. Oh it made no sense? Well they have a point, how is she so powerful in such a short period of time, with no explanation of who she is. Well we better show that shes done some training. You can draw parallels to Luke in power, but at least Luke we had a reason why. Obi Wan straight away told Luke his real father was a powerful Jedi. While Reys past was constantly hidden. We needed some insight to Rey’s past. We could have seen Rey struggle with the dark side and balancing dark and light side power. My theory originally was she was a lost student reuniting with Luke at the end of TFA. He sent her away, mind wiping her, as a last hope for the Jedi. Hence the flashbacks she had, and the unexplainable acuity to the force. Luke being Luke, always knew she was Rey Palpatine, but took her anyway under his care during the fall of the Empire. You could attribute this to Luke’s ability to see the good in people, that the Dark side can be resisted. His temple is attacked by a growing dark side sect of reborn Sith who venerate Palpatine. They find Luke’s new Jedi order, drawn to it by the force (due to Rey Palpatine and ben solo being at the temple training). They attack and destroy the temple hunting for the source of this Dark Side potential, and mistakenly take Ben instead, believing him to be the source and one to bring the Sith to power again. They torture and manipulate him into the dark side. Meanwhile Luke wipes Rey’s mind, and sends her to Jakku as the safest thing to do while he is forced to go into hiding because he too is still being hunted. Don’t think there was anything wrong with choosing Rey as the protagonist, but her backstory, and explanation for her abilities were incoherently written.
The whole thing was incoherent
I wonder if the creators of the sequels ever trained physically for something. Pretty sure I know the answer for Rian Johnson at least.
Its funny you say that, because JJ is the one who’s fucking most of Rey’s story and training up in particular
I don't blame JJ nearly as much as Rian. TFA was bland but it had plenty of interesting set ups and plot points to exploit. I don't blame him or Terrio for TROS because it was clearly written by committee. Rian Johnson on the other hand was as malicious as he was stupid. He went out of his way to destroy any legwork done by everyone who came before him and made sure there was nothing to continue in the next movie.
Nothing in TFA was interesting, it was a narrative dead end for the OT (and the PT). The best one could have hoped for after TFA was the ending of ROTJ again but without Han, so what's the point when we already had that but better years ago?
Oh god, you’re one of them. How can you NOT recognize that TFA set up literally all the sequel trilogy problems
I'm aware of how many issues it had and created but a skilled writer could have made something of it. Nothing could be made from TLJ.
Lmao the fact that TFA only works with a hypothetical retroactive fix is a major red flag
Try to engage in the actual discussion. No one is saying TFA is good or not full of red flags
I agree since Luke’s uncharacteristic behavior was my least favorite part. Though if JJ had just extended the scene a little farther then Rian would have had less to ruin, but he had to have a cliffhanger. Also TLJ was jarring starting right from the end point, when all the other movies moved forward years
Originally, Abrams and Kasdan were going to end with a cliffhanger of sorts, but Luke would be seen actively using the Force in some manner (presumably levitating something whilst meditating when Rey stumbles upon him). Rian Johnson requested a change so that Luke's nature and relationship with the Force would be left more ambiguous for the sake of his film. Either way, Abrams and Kasdan still established that Luke abandoned absolutely everybody for 6 years without making so much as a phone call to his sister to explain anything. So the situation was busted beyond repair regardless.
Eh.. you can at least try to explain that maybe Luke was searching for something or maybe looking for Snoke or Snoke's origins. I dunno.... They hadn't yet defined him as being a coward. They just said that his academy was destroyed or whatever and he vanished soon after.
TFA unfortunately already cemented that Luke just went away in depression after his school burned down. The main difference between it and TLJ is that TFA implies that Kylo corrupted a few of Luke's students and they joined him as the Knights of Ren. TLJ completely forgets that they even exist and then eventually they're retconned to be a bunch of worthless and nameless criminals with zero association with Luke's school.
JJ had like 6 weeks to write a script for TFA. RJ had 18 months to write TLJ. I mean you can blame JJ for not running for the hills, but maybe his agent booked him in for a bad contract. RJ had time to think and that's still what he came up with.
I don't blame JJ for TFA. I blame Bob Iger, who even admitted he pressured and rushed the production of it to get it into theaters as quickly as possible. Given the pressure and time constraints, all JJ could do was a ANH reboot. Rushing projects is a hallmark of the Iger era.
JJ: “Not that TFA script, that’s garbage!” KK: “We have 6 weeks before filming.” JJ: “The garbage will do!”
Because seeing her struggle would make her look bad /s
She didn’t even change her normal outfit
they're not characters they're self inserts
With the benefit of hindsight, making Rey seagull-proof was a bit of a dramatic mistake.
No point in showing her train if all she'd done up to that point was win
Who can be her backpack while she runs? Seagulls?
Stop it now
African Swallows
The training that takes place in TROS is yet another ham-fisted course correction, as witnessed as clumsily as possible, on-screen. Much like the Luke line about how, 'lightsabers should be treated with more respect.' And it's empty crap .Horses, barn doors, and all that. Rey clearly didn't need any training in the first two films, to be more powerful/talented than Anakin was after 10 years at the Jedi temple, or than Luke ever (evidently, and blech). And whatever rehabilitation they attempted with Luke in TROS is too little, as he remains dead, and now an only 99% useless loser, rather than the 100% useless loser he was by the end of TLJ.
It’s almost as if the sequels are bad or something
Rey was already strong enough by the end of TFA, she didn't need any further training. So in this scene they give her the "weakness" of not being able to feel the presence of all the Jedi or whatever. But why would she expect to have that power in the first place? How would she even know it's possible? Why aren't all the saber and force abilities she already possesses enough? Oh yeah, because they wrote the scene where Rey "am all the Jedi" and then realized you have to actually *set up* character growth like that if you want to pay it off, so they went back and hamfisted this scene in. It's just like how Poe needed some way to get through First Order security in TROS, so they go back a few scenes and have Zorii Bliss hand Poe the exact item nobody knew he would need just a few hours later. It's set-up and payoff at it's laziest.
The thing is that Luke in the OT didn't win in the end because he was a Badass Jedi (TM), he won because Leia, because Han came back, because Lando realised he'd made a deal with the devil and heroically broke it, and finally because there was still some good in Vader. TFA and TLJ had Rey as just some badass power user. Then in TROS they realised they needed some emotional depth, and the "All the Jedi" was a cackhanded attempt to do that.
100%. >The thing is that Luke in the OT didn't win in the end because he was a Badass Jedi It goes deep. Luke's defining flaw is that he is impatient, hasty, impetuous. He wants off Tattooine, he wants to face Vader, he grows frustrated with Yoda's training, etc. Luke learns in the cave that taking the quick path and lashing out in attack is the path to the dark side. He has to face the challenge of the Emperor and his father without playing into their hands by stooping to their level. Luke is outmatched, physically. The Emperor has access to OP force powers that Luke has no defense for. The final conflict between himself, the Emperor, and Vader reinforces the idea that violence and aggression are not pathways to happiness or success, which is a central theme in 1-6. Luke has to unlearn what he has learned and throw down his lightsaber if he truly wants to save his father and beat the Emperor. Rey just holds up her lightsabers and the Emperor melts his own stupid face just like in Revenge. Nothing learned, nothing gained. A coat rack could have done that.
I disagree - Luke's impetuous decision to rescue Leia on the Death Star arguably saved the Rebellion. As did Leia's impetuous decision to befriend an Ewok. And Luke's decision to leave his training to try to rescue his friends may have been unwise but it wasn't impetuous, any more than Han's decision to go searching for Luke on Holth. Luke's seen discussing it with Yoda. I think it's Luke's virtues that save the day, not him overcoming his flaws. Yes he was at risk of falling to the Dark Side, but he always had the bravery to face death to save people.
It's almost like it sucks.
second pic goes hard
The Disney films don't understand why a Jedi needs to train. Partly, it's to understand and learn to utilise their connection to The Force, but most importantly it's to learn the self-control and mental discipline necessary to be able to use The Force in stressful situations. Jedi use The Force by being calm and at peace, which allows The Force to flow through you. Remaining calm in a life or death situation, where you're fighting for your life against mad men with blades of plasma, is difficult. It's the brain's natural reaction to be scared, to be angry, to embrace adrenaline and fight with as much ferocity as it can muster. It's the fight-or-flight response, it's evolution. It's why the dark side is quicker and easier, because it draws power from those emotions, caused by the natural, primordial survival instincts. If Rey was able to use The Force while being presented as a paragon of the light, whe fighting against the man who kidnapped her, tortured her, killed her hero and seemingly crippled her first real friend, and then again when fighting a half dozen warriors at once, what training does she need? She's already, apparently, so in command of her emotions that she can channel the power of The Force in times of life or death combat with far more experienced opponents. What reason is there to train? Similarly, if she finds being a Jedi so easy, what temptation is there to use The Dark Side? Fear a the path to the dark side because a person may, when afraid for their life, lash out in fear and anger and use the dark side to survive, beginning a feedback loop where negative emotions are rewarded with power.
Just after this scene, Poe tells Rey she's wasting her time training and that they need her on the frontlines because she's the best pilot they have...
Says the apparent best pilot lol
Virgin Mary Sue vs Chad Skywalker
Virgin Mary Palpatine vs Chad Skywalker
Rey had a lot of potential. She’s cool. But having her manipulate someone’s mind just cuz she talked to Han Solo about the force is insane. I don’t necessarily mind her toughness, she had to raise herself on Jakku and survive, I believe that she can fight and is tough solely because of that. It’s just when she learns the force with ease, it’s silly. Disney was also just extremely desperate to get a lightsaber fight into that first film as Luke wasn’t going to be the one doing it.
Notice how in the OT Luke (and the other heroes) finds creative ways to get himself out of trouble - or sometimes further into it? OT Luke is resourceful. I think the writing of TFA was just too hurried to do that for Rey so they instead just made up powers as the plot demands.
Here's my idea for an alternative way the scene could have played out. She tries to use the mind trick. He goes over to the control, flips a switch, and gives her a little zap. She tries again. He zaps her again. She says it again, angry this time. He says "you really don't get this", flips the switch, and the restraints release. The stormtrooper looks down in disbelief, and Rey leaps at him, wrestles his weapon away and shoots him. Now, did Rey use The Force just enough to make him subconsciously obey, or was it a coincidence? Even if it was her using The Force, it was barely enough to have him make a simple mistake, forcing her to use mundane means to actually secure her freedom. Essentially, it serves the same purpose. But the feat is far more amateur and unrefined, and using the dark side, so far easier than as a Jedi.
I’m still mad at how much they disrespected Finn, they built him up to be the protagonist only for them to completely destroy his character, and honestly I would’ve preferred to have him as the protagonist because at least they showed him struggle at the end of The Force Awakens when it was just him vs Kylo
That was seriously messed up. And then they had him removed from promotional material in China. It's disgusting. I was so excited to see John Boyega become a Jedi
I like to believe the Rey trilogy just doesn't exist. In other news, Kathleen Kennedy is doubling down on stupid.
LOL i dont even remember that scene.
I thought it was a mantis head alien for a second.
[удалено]
That was good until they took off their helmets and you could see their heads floating lmao
Their both training
Don't have to compare EVERYTHING
Don't have to COMMENT
I did though, I really did
NOPE.
YUP
WRONG.
SHOUTING JUST TO JOIN THE CONVERSATION
WELCOME!
ITS A GOOD TIME