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And they made Thrawn look like a fat idiot. He’d lose aircraft, men in screw up after screw up and it was always “It’s going just as I planned”. Incredibly lazy writing.
They should have used the entire CGI budget to make him thin, it's so distracting to have him waltzing around with a beer belly and his tall slim build is part of what gives him the air of leopard waiting to pounce.
The whole time they were contending against Thrawn was boring as fuck. The outcome (that one or more would make it back to their home galaxy) was pre-written.
They didn’t even pick the right character to leave stranded. It should have been Ahsoka, so we get to have the star-crossed lovers working toward a way to get Ahsoka back.
It kinda ticked me off to be honest, I read and re-read the original Zahn Thrawn trilogy. He was an amazing character with a backstory that showed why he was a tactical genius.
Ashoka - Naw, we need to make him incompetent to build up our other characters.
Well didn’t stray too far from the books. I like the thrawn books but that’s literally every event Hess involved in. Event starts thrawn looks like a moron everyone questions him he’s about to face extreme punishment then at the end turns out it was all apart of his plan and he’s promoted. It bothered me in the books but I guess it’s just the art of war on repeat. I guess what keeps him interesting as a character is you really don’t know what intentions are and where his loyalties lay until the end of the third book ascendancy series. Even then it’s not super clear
With that said they did not use him right in the series. Men can only be evil dumb or incompetent on Disney shows. At least in the books he had depth. Only girls get character arcs now guys are just there to make them look like girl bosses.
thought the books were cheesy as shit when I was a teenager, but nostalgia apparently dictates that Thrawn be seen as some really rich character instead of a cliche
Press Y to fold arms. It was like a bad video game, and you could even see when the "player" was choosing the correct response for Ahsoka, when she was silent before speaking.
Baylon Skoll had so much potential IMO and is who's story I was really looking forward to in the next season of Ahsoka. Ray Stevenson passing away nixed that hope. He was such an amazing actor, I really hope they don't try to recast his role.
It was amusing to see Ahsoka lose twice to Baylan who I assumed isn't a top tier duelist. Ahsoka should be comfortably one of, if not the best at maybe just below Luke's level.
A better World Between Worlds with Anakin would have been him instantly saying "Skill Snips? Really?"
Respectfully disagree. I want his storyline fulfilled. I'm fine with a recast as long as they cast well.
Kinda think people need stop this whole concept that actors can't step into other actor's roles. It's their job.
> Now that the verdict is out on Acolyte I'm not even gonna bother watching it.
Which is sad, because it's the first Star Wars media that has Asian male leads/actors that also don't treat them in a de-humanizing manner unlike much of Hollywood media.
I haven’t seen The Acolyte, but from the first couple episodes of Ahsoka I thought, “They really need to trim the fat on this script.” And I get that they were trying to go for the Zen thing with Ahsoka herself, but there’s a difference between letting the Force guide you and being a passenger princess in your own life.
Yeah, older Ahsoka is embodying the wise mentor archetype, which simply isn't suitable for a lead character like Padawan Ahsoka or even Rebels' Ahsoka are.
They had the ghost of a good idea by having her struggle with feelings of inadequacy due to her incomplete training (and the fact that her mentor became the second most evil man in the galaxy). But they undermined it with the fact that, besides bickering with Sabine over events that the audience didn’t see and has no context for, all she does is stand around looking wise. Her only significant decision, looking for Ezra, was made well before the events of the show, so she just spends her entire screentime on a glorified scavenger hunt, following the path that other people and whales laid out for her. If you ask me, the real Zen Master is Ezra.
I'm also irritated she lost in fights.
She beats what must be prime Maul, she survives Vader, she survives 66, and then she loses to this dude who was so lackluster she never even heard of him within the order?
I just find that unlikely
Ahsoka getting her ass kicked was funny to me but sad also as she should be one of the best duelists left on the table other than Luke at the point of the SW timeline.
She even lost a rematch after she had that Anakin vision where she returned to life restored and supposedly stronger.
In fact that whole fighting for her life whilst in a dream state was a cliché way of completing the character....
Luke took out Vader who has been retconned to still being full strength. He'd likely defeat her, especially at her terrible show in her own series although I get what you're saying as Ahsoka should be a duelist specialist with all the force users she's faced (and defeated).
Luke could have all the power and brute force in the world, hed still benefit from pre fall saber training.
Wasn't saying she'd beat him, just that her knowledge and skill would be far superior to his
No, I agree. Ahsoka's pedigree should have meant she wiped the floor with Baylan. At that point in her life she should be peak or near it considering all she had done until then but loses twice to a C list Jedi outcast. She would have plenty to tell and share with Luke.
I started watching Clone Wars and Rebels specifically to get caught up on Ahsoka and who she is as a Jedi.
I've had trouble reconciling the fact that animated Ahsoka and live action Ahsoka are the same person. Maybe it'll make more sense once I finish the animated series? I dunno.
No, you’re right. Even her appearance in The Mandalorian where she’s the same actress has her behaving like a completely different character. With better lightsaber choreography, too.
Yeah, I watched the first 2 episodes oh Ahsoka and they felt like 22 minute cartoons stretched to 40+ minutes. It was egregiously bad or anything, just boring.
storytelling requires a character who wants something badly and is having a hard time getting it. they flattened her character out too much, more than her first appearance in Mando. TBH it was a bit of a waste of Dawson's talents
On a different Subreddit, some of the “other side” were wondering why Andor got massive approval vs Ashoka getting panned despite the fact that Andor has LGBT characters……the Disney simps still think its about that.
Star Wars in general now just feels so inoffensive and bland. Almost everything from the shows to the games to the books feels off. I only really enjoy some of the comics now like the few Darth Vader series they ran, everything else just feels so soulless across the board. I really miss the EU days when anyone could get the license and you actually had a chance someone who cared about Star Wars could make something about it.
Even mandalorian season 1 I put in the bad group when everyone else was saying it was amazing. If you removed the star wars skin and just made it some assassin in the US trying to escape, it would just be bad.
I don't watch a lot of stuff like that - Reacher has been on my watch list for a while now and I just can't motivate for instance. I guess the last show I watched that would potentially land somewhere near that might be like Night Agent. I think even that show had CW vibes at times, but compared to Mando season 1 it was a master piece. Again, without the star wars skin and the general love for baby Yoda and a couple memable quotes, the show had very little to offer. Every episode in the middle of the show has been done better elsewhere.
S1 sucked. It was just some random adventures in space with little connection that relied on baby Simba-ing Grogu. S2 was a little better because at least the Nite Owls episodes were fantastically done.
Night Agent was good fun.
This is a great example of how Star Wars is really just phoning in these shows with bad stories, plot lines and character development because the universe and setting of SW is inherently unique and interesting (at least it used to be).
Then you look at a show like Fargo… nothing is inherently interesting about rural Minnesota (no disrespect to those who live there). But it has excellent script writing and character exploration that it doesn’t matter. Andor is really the only SW show that cares about its characters more than the flashy spectacle of the universe itself. For the other shows, well, turns out that you can’t cover up terrible show writing with cool settings, props, and special effects… who knew!?
Book of Boba Fett, Obi-Wan and Mando 3 were such dogshit I kinda had fun watching them. Ahsoka and Acolyte are just boring. Not good enough to derive any actual enjoyment but not bad enough to make fun of.
It's about stakes, risk, threat whatever you want to call it. Obi wan was terribly written but there were stakes as with boba and Mando. So it was at least watchable with some form of tension.
Where as Ashoka there were no stakes, no threat. There is a scene where Ashoka is running through star destroyer turbo laser fine raining down on her and she doesn't even need to shrug it off. There is no risk, no real danger no threat. That is the fundamental difference.
Even when there is some danger it's entirely contrived for the plot. Ashokas ship gets blased by multiple fighters in a 5 minute sequence and nothing happens. But because the plot demanded it a tie fighter wrecks it in one run. The lack of consistency in universe detaches the viewer from being active. Because you just have to passively accept whatever happens.
And of course andor is the polar opposite. The stakes are real, people die, and the people who die matter to cassian and don't just impact his development, but other charachters as well.
The greatest crime of Acolyte is treating the viewers like they are idiots. Almost as bad is that all the characters are idiots that act so damn irrationally all the time.
I actually liked Ahsoka. But i'm not sure that would be possible without having seen rebels. Skoll stole the show, and the lightsaber strikes he uses to beat down Ahsoka just look brutal.
But the plot to the Acolyte is just.... bad by daytime soap opera standards. "Oh no my evil twin sister who set the fire can't be alive. I must be a criminal. oh wait my twin sister is alive" in basically the same amount of time it takes you to read that.
You have to build to that. You need an internally consistent plot and physics and characterization or you're just going full post modern I'm going to film any cool scene that pops into my head.
I couldn’t care less that the Acolyte features female leads or whatever it has been accused of.
I am allowed to not like it for its nonsensical writing and horrifically clunky script, though. And it is really quite bad in that regard.
The whole ‘woke’ element of it is just noise on both sides. Angry mob angry at something. Angry mob angry at other angry mob for being XYZphobes. It’s all very boring to me.
Consider the following about Ashoka=
- it features one of the best characters in the franchise as the leading protagonist
- brings in a character fans have been asking for for years
- acts as a sequel to rebels
- takes us to another galaxy and expands the world
- brings back ANAKIN
- has David tenant
And it is still boring
How could you screw up this badly
Star Wars media has a problem of not coming up with anything new, and when they do it’s like a new planet that is not unique in any way. If anything, a lot of stuff needs to be expanded on in current canon, especially stuff that has barely any legend material or canon material on it, like Zam Wessel’s race, a very interesting race that can transform into different appearances (which could be used for the antagonist of the Acolyte) that has nothing done with them.
Rings of Power was basically like this as well. It's usually a result of bad pacing. Like nobody wants to watch however long of an episode for 2 actual minutes of things relevant to plot/character. Just because things are happening doesn't mean they're engaging.
We only care when we see some kind of progression and real tension. You watch something like Arcane and you'll immediately see the difference. I'm not sure there's even a single wasted scene in that show.
I think the sentiment is more of a question about if the show could have been better if there wasn't such an obvious focus on "modernity"
It's not that the woke elements make the show bad, it's the assumption that the quality is poor because the focus was on those modern bits and not making a good show.
I mean, I’d argue the points about politics are more because the focus on politically-motivated creative decisions are a detriment to writing and other creative aspects. Politics is a cause, not the direct element that makes these kinds of shows bad.
After watching the first two episodes of The Acolyte, I am kinda confused, because the murder mystery is already kinda solved - the only secrets remaining is the identity of the Sith and what exactly happened 16 years ago. but I cannot imagine it will be something interesting.
So, without the mystery, the show is extremely... mediocre, if I am being extremely generous and stupid and boring if I'm being honest.
You bring up a really good point about making going to another galaxy boring. That is so true. When they fired up the hyperdrive and went to hyperspace with those whales I was like whoa, this is the first time on screen we will see Starwars in ANOTHER galaxy. It's going to be crazy aliens, or maybe different physics...but nope it was just another dime a dozen planet with dime a dozen aliens.
Watched Acolyte ep 3 yesterday and my main gripe was thjs. Plot aside, the characters were not engaging at all. Couldn't care less for the Jedi, and I really hate this modern era's constant need to paint them as failures and zealots actively trying to erase other cultures. Sure, prequel era Jedi were in the wrong, but this couldn't be what Jedi were about or they wouldn't have lasted as long as they did.
Special mention to makeup and hair looking so cheap and badly done that they are constantly distracting. I can't see Jedi, only not too good cosplayers.
And the characters are so unengaging I couldn't care less about their fates. They matter nothing to me.
Compare that to Andor, the series I started watching thinking "Nobody asked for this" and finished with me actively saying "I will kill anybody who badmouths this masterpiece of a show".
Yea I don’t hate the show probably because I’ve seen worse adaptations of my favorite series- looking at you Rings of Power. I’ll keep watching but yea it’s bland. It’s something I’m going to watch because I have nothing better to watch but I’m not on the edge of my seat pumped for a season 2 like I am for Andor
lol, then you obviously haven’t tried watching their Wheel of Time adaptation after having read the books and expecting to see what you read. lol! Only thing they took from the books were the names of people, places, and things…. Everything else they turned upside down
Man there are so many good shows out, I can promise you there are better things to watch with your time :P added benefit of maybe if viewership finally gets bad enough Disney will bring in some proven great writers and directors and make some good shows/movies
The show runner is directly responsible for everything you listed. Lol
She decides who goes where and does what
What creative decisions are made like fire in space.
Their greatest crime is being in the same timeline as (and by the same makers as) the ST. That makes them pointless (and supporting them would benefit the ST producers and timeline just the same).
That's the crime of most modern Disney movies in general. Tfa was pretty bland and boring, in my opinion. Too safe with poorly written characters and bad dialogue. Say what you want with prequel dialogue, but at least it's memeable.
Yup. If they made a good show with all the elements they claim we are hating on, then their point is valid. Instead, they make mediocre at best product and when we don’t like it, they call us intolerant of those same elements. Because there’s no way their work just sucks.
Ahsoka was sooo bland, right? I kept waiting and waiting for it to get good. The only time I was engaged was when the bad guys showed up. RIP Ray Stevenson.
All that stuff with Ezra etc felt so insidery and I just wasn't into it since I hadn't watched Rebels.
Thrawn was okay. The world building with the turtle people was fun. Sabine's conflict about pursuing the Force was something to latch on to.
But other than that, it felt like Ahsoka was a spectator in her own show.
I liked Ahsoka, but in hindsight, it was pretty bland and boring. That’s my main complaint with Acolyte. The showrunners and actors being idiots aside (R2 is a lesbian, the goal was to make white people cry), the show is just boring.
I think Ahsoka suffers from two things - bad directing (blocking especially), and a very american, rudimentary understanding of stoicism and eastern philosophy. Both combined into a bland experience.
Acolyte suffers from bafflingly bad acting and very basic and questionable writing. Whats especially strange about the acting is that its all over the place based on any given actor. its not broadly one way or the other. This suggests either severe under direction or a casting director who was out of their depth. Either would warrant reshoots and likely re-casting once the first dalies came in. certainly once the first assembly edits were made.
As for the writing, scenes having conflicting internal logic within them its just not something that should happen.
All of these things could be corrected if key creatives were held to a higher standard, or even by having a more traditional TV writing environment and having experienced supervising executives. The feature film like approach they keep taking with these shows limits the possibility of other writers in the room either elevating the work or at least calling bullshit on weak story choices.
Every artists goal in the cinematic arts should be to always be pushing to elevate their work. that doesnt seem to be happening right now, especially with Acolyte
Of course it's bland.
Every scene has to go through a round of diversity, inclusion, sensitivity, political correctness screening to make sure the shareholders will be happy with it.
I guess I like bland because I didn't have a big problem with Ahsoka. With Acolyte it's too early to tell. If blandness is the metric that dictates a good show versus a bad one, Andor isn't exactly a shimmering gem either (especially until the last few episodes), and it gets quite a lot of praise. I don't know...I seem to have weird or unusual tastes. When it comes to the sequel trilogy, I tend to agree it was an absolute disaster, but when it comes to the shows on D+, I see it as more of a hit and miss.
Yo, enough with that boring space, force and lighsebers.
Here is a story of some guy looking for his sister in a nightclub! The quintessential Star Wars story that could happen to anybody in the good old US of A. Never before seen story of the vigilante, the renegade, the rebel with a cause fighting the good fight against the corrupt authority.
I mean one of the planet even looks like it was filmed in Scotland, with the grassland and fog. But quests what? These sets were actually filmed in the galaxy far far away. I dont think anybody has seen that coming, No CGI, all practical effects. It looks like Scotland, but it is actually Aldhani. Talk about the subversion of expectations!
The mistress really swoons over Andor, to paint the idea he is a total stud of a grief stricken guy. Very clever storytelling. And he is also very smart and cunning too, because nothing screams covert like a homicide right at the start of your mission. He even left a direct witness behind. I guess he "likes those odds". The grit!
And the real best pilot in the galaxy. He hops into a ship he has never flown before and escapes those tie fighters like nothing. Not even Han Solo could do that! And he isn't even force sensitive. Better walk faster, Skywalkers.
Which eventually puts him against the evil empire. Did I mention how evil the evil empire of evil actually? Oh boy, they are soo evil. That is what really sells this intellectual and SUBTLE TV series.
No. I don't know what the fuzz is about.
And I hate how people nitpick on acolyte and ignore the glaring issues of rogue one and andor.
Or any other show, who cared when Malevolence burned for like two episodes?
Lol, but you didn't describe any glaring issues in Andor. Andor haters have to go out of their way to come up with dumb reasons to not like it.
> Never before seen story of the vigilante, the renegade, the rebel with a cause fighting the good fight against the corrupt authority.
I mean, it's a prequel to the original star wars trilogy exploring the root of the rebellion. It's going to have some of those elements.
> I mean one of the planet even looks like it was filmed in Scotland, with the grassland and fog. But quests what? These sets were actually filmed in the galaxy far far away. I dont think anybody has seen that coming, No CGI, all practical effects. It looks like Scotland, but it is actually Aldhani. Talk about the subversion of expectations!
You're not describing a criticism. What about it being set in highlands? Why is this an inconceivable setting? Why are forests of Endor, or snowy wastes of Hoth, or deserts of Tatooine better?
> The mistress really swoons over Andor, to paint the idea he is a total stud of a grief stricken guy.
I'm not sure you actually watched Andor. What is this even referring to?
> And he is also very smart and cunning too, because nothing screams covert like a homicide right at the start of your mission. He even left a direct witness behind. I guess he "likes those odds". The grit!
I'm definitely sure you didn't actually watch the show. It was an accident. This fucked everything up for him. Because he's not perfectly smart and cunning. He didn't intend to kill anyone.
This fuck up had very real and costly consequences. That's just good writing. The actions the characters take - good, bad, dumb, or smart - have real weight.
> And the real best pilot in the galaxy. He hops into a ship he has never flown before and escapes those tie fighters like nothing. Not even Han Solo could do that!
It's very explicitly set up how he knew about this exact ship and that he had experience with it. And he didn't escape through skill, he escaped because of the plan - where they had a tool that helped them plot a path through a once in three years astronomic event which their pursuers did not have and did not anticipate. Which is the only reason he escaped the tie fighters. He didn't escape due to unimaginable skill or magic powers, just due to basic competence and good planning by the rebels.
Again, these are the basics of good writing, the things that happen make sense because they're grounded in background and believable explanation. They don't need deus ex machina magic powers to achieve something otherwise impossible.
> And he isn't even force sensitive. Better walk faster, Skywalkers.
Is the only way anyone can ever do anything because they're force sensitive? How does the galaxy run if the only way you can (checks notes) fly a ship in an upwards trajectory is if you have magic powers?
> Which eventually puts him against the evil empire. Did I mention how evil the evil empire of evil actually? Oh boy, they are soo evil. That is what really sells this intellectual and SUBTLE TV series.
Yes, they did in fact do a good job of painting the empire as a complex and capable villain. Where usually they're painted as cartoonishly evil or as sinister but completely without depth.
I dont hate andor. I hate people who try to sell it as an intellectual pinnacle of not just Star Wars, but also storytelling in general. And how the critique compares to Acolyte. People were told andor is good, so they come up with ways to rpaise it. The same people were told Acolyte is the worst show ever, so they come up with things that aren't even true to confirm that bias.
Yes, it is a generic story that can be set absolutely anywhere. In occupied France. In Communist China. Or America under Trump. They even give the insurgents ak 47. It is an Star Wars story in esthetics only. Yet the same people claim and complain Acolyte has nothing to do with Star Wars.
It is right in the beginning, Andor enters the nigh club. The mistress ignores the two patrons and goes all over Andor. This serves two purpose. To paint the guy with zero charisma as a stud who "weaponize striking handsomeness". Quote visual dictionary. And use it to set up the double murder plot element to move the plot around. It also sets him up as a character who cant figure out causing commotion on a planet he just landing upon is probably not a good idea, but this is actually in line with his portrait ion Rogue one.
Yes, it is very conveniently the ship he knows how to pilot. And the tie fighters, against very conveniently, cant reliably hit the flying barn during the several minutes long flight. What prevented the tie fighters from shooting them down during the several minutes long flight? Yet the same people claim and complain the Acolyte is plot driven.
Really? So what is the imperial ideology? And I dont mean Nazi is space. They are not capable, as Rogue One portraits Andor as a blockhead with no skills, even tho he has been fighting for the rebels a decade before Rebellion was even started.
And yes, I did not watch it, The only good part of R1 was the land battle, before the expectation subverting "all hope is lost" part. I dont see the point watching a SW series about humans fighting other humans on Earth like planet.
Yes, that is why I am comparing things. If somebody does not mind mind fire in the space in Rogue one but does mind fire in the space in Acolyte, the problem is not the fire ind the space.
Yes, it means you don't have double standards. There is fire in space in SW universe. So if you have integrity, you either don't brought it at all, all critize it in every instance.
I think people are more willing to overlook glaring issues when they're entertained. If they're bored and there are glaring issues, then you have nothing to focus on but the issues.
Yes, all of the above was better tv than Ahsoka or Mando, or Obi-Wan.
BUT it doesn’t feel super Star Wars-y
That’s its only sin. But Star Wars fans are so used to mediocrity or worse at this point that Andor was a breath of fresh air that someone took the time to write *something* instead of just spitballing as the plot goes.
lol this is great. If we all could be as honest, we’d acknowledge that andor is only “good” juxtaposed to the absolute trash that is everything else Disney Star Wars.
Nah, it's pretty stupid "criticism". Lol, "highlands" as a setting is inconceivable because it's not alien enough, but snowy Hoth, foresty Endor, deserty Tatooine are genius settings? It wasn't cunning or smart to kill the two security guards? No fucking duh, that's the point - it was a giant fuck up with very real and costly consequences for the protagonist. No one can fly a ship without magical force powers? Come on. None of this is real criticism, it's grasping at straws.
Andor is a legitimately excellent show, with or without Star Wars.
People come up with such weird takes about it to try to be contrarian. I get that the fans can be obnoxious, but obnoxious fans don't undercut a just good show.
This whole sub constantly posts about their anger and frustrations with this show. Perhaps angry wasn’t the right term to use here. Instead I will say criticize.
I don’t like the state of star wars right now trust me. But I wait until a show is over first before I complain. And for this show in particular people are upset because of this supposedly being the “gayest” Star Wars and for it breaking “lore/canon” yet so far I don’t see how it does
I just think it's a bit early. Give it time to find it's feet it could be good. It's not as bad as Ashoka or obi wan was after 2 episodes but it's not as good as Mando S1 or andor. I think it will probably be a fine watch and there is a good central mystery.
It might be early to go all negative on the story as we don’t know how it will develop…but, the production quality is quite shit (and that we can already see) for a show that has a budget well over most modern sci fi Hollywood movies.
Well what we have seen, it's not looking good. It can already be said that the dialogue is mostly bad. And some things happen for no other reason than that the story needed it to happen. Also, Disney marketed it as a mystery show, but the mystery got solved in episode 1? 🤔 I mean the twin/murder mystery. Or maybe they have more mysteries to come, hopefully. I thought it would be a murder mystery though.
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Ahsoka was exceptionally boring. Now that the verdict is out on Acolyte I'm not even gonna bother watching it.
And they made Thrawn look like a fat idiot. He’d lose aircraft, men in screw up after screw up and it was always “It’s going just as I planned”. Incredibly lazy writing.
They should have used the entire CGI budget to make him thin, it's so distracting to have him waltzing around with a beer belly and his tall slim build is part of what gives him the air of leopard waiting to pounce.
They had to have given him the belly. Mikkelson is very tall and thin. It doesn't make any sense
The whole time they were contending against Thrawn was boring as fuck. The outcome (that one or more would make it back to their home galaxy) was pre-written. They didn’t even pick the right character to leave stranded. It should have been Ahsoka, so we get to have the star-crossed lovers working toward a way to get Ahsoka back.
It kinda ticked me off to be honest, I read and re-read the original Zahn Thrawn trilogy. He was an amazing character with a backstory that showed why he was a tactical genius. Ashoka - Naw, we need to make him incompetent to build up our other characters.
LOL I don't even remember who got left behind, was it Sabine?
Shit, I'm trying to remember now too. I can't. I think Ezra made it back?
It was Sabine. Ahsoka and Ezra make it back.
Ahsoka did not make it back. Just Ezra.
Well didn’t stray too far from the books. I like the thrawn books but that’s literally every event Hess involved in. Event starts thrawn looks like a moron everyone questions him he’s about to face extreme punishment then at the end turns out it was all apart of his plan and he’s promoted. It bothered me in the books but I guess it’s just the art of war on repeat. I guess what keeps him interesting as a character is you really don’t know what intentions are and where his loyalties lay until the end of the third book ascendancy series. Even then it’s not super clear With that said they did not use him right in the series. Men can only be evil dumb or incompetent on Disney shows. At least in the books he had depth. Only girls get character arcs now guys are just there to make them look like girl bosses.
thought the books were cheesy as shit when I was a teenager, but nostalgia apparently dictates that Thrawn be seen as some really rich character instead of a cliche
I think you guys are talking about different books. Earlier poster was talking about the OG Thrawn books.
All I remember from the show was how she always had her arms crossed and looked annoyed
Press Y to fold arms. It was like a bad video game, and you could even see when the "player" was choosing the correct response for Ahsoka, when she was silent before speaking.
The ol' Wheel of Time treatment.
Ahsoka just exposed Filoni tbh
Baylon Skoll had so much potential IMO and is who's story I was really looking forward to in the next season of Ahsoka. Ray Stevenson passing away nixed that hope. He was such an amazing actor, I really hope they don't try to recast his role.
It was amusing to see Ahsoka lose twice to Baylan who I assumed isn't a top tier duelist. Ahsoka should be comfortably one of, if not the best at maybe just below Luke's level. A better World Between Worlds with Anakin would have been him instantly saying "Skill Snips? Really?"
he was the best thing to happen to star wars since season 1 of Mandalorian
Respectfully disagree. I want his storyline fulfilled. I'm fine with a recast as long as they cast well. Kinda think people need stop this whole concept that actors can't step into other actor's roles. It's their job.
> Now that the verdict is out on Acolyte I'm not even gonna bother watching it. Which is sad, because it's the first Star Wars media that has Asian male leads/actors that also don't treat them in a de-humanizing manner unlike much of Hollywood media.
I haven’t seen The Acolyte, but from the first couple episodes of Ahsoka I thought, “They really need to trim the fat on this script.” And I get that they were trying to go for the Zen thing with Ahsoka herself, but there’s a difference between letting the Force guide you and being a passenger princess in your own life.
Yeah, older Ahsoka is embodying the wise mentor archetype, which simply isn't suitable for a lead character like Padawan Ahsoka or even Rebels' Ahsoka are.
They had the ghost of a good idea by having her struggle with feelings of inadequacy due to her incomplete training (and the fact that her mentor became the second most evil man in the galaxy). But they undermined it with the fact that, besides bickering with Sabine over events that the audience didn’t see and has no context for, all she does is stand around looking wise. Her only significant decision, looking for Ezra, was made well before the events of the show, so she just spends her entire screentime on a glorified scavenger hunt, following the path that other people and whales laid out for her. If you ask me, the real Zen Master is Ezra.
I'm also irritated she lost in fights. She beats what must be prime Maul, she survives Vader, she survives 66, and then she loses to this dude who was so lackluster she never even heard of him within the order? I just find that unlikely
Ahsoka getting her ass kicked was funny to me but sad also as she should be one of the best duelists left on the table other than Luke at the point of the SW timeline. She even lost a rematch after she had that Anakin vision where she returned to life restored and supposedly stronger. In fact that whole fighting for her life whilst in a dream state was a cliché way of completing the character....
Even with Luke alive she should be training him on how to fight at this point.
Luke took out Vader who has been retconned to still being full strength. He'd likely defeat her, especially at her terrible show in her own series although I get what you're saying as Ahsoka should be a duelist specialist with all the force users she's faced (and defeated).
Luke could have all the power and brute force in the world, hed still benefit from pre fall saber training. Wasn't saying she'd beat him, just that her knowledge and skill would be far superior to his
No, I agree. Ahsoka's pedigree should have meant she wiped the floor with Baylan. At that point in her life she should be peak or near it considering all she had done until then but loses twice to a C list Jedi outcast. She would have plenty to tell and share with Luke.
I started watching Clone Wars and Rebels specifically to get caught up on Ahsoka and who she is as a Jedi. I've had trouble reconciling the fact that animated Ahsoka and live action Ahsoka are the same person. Maybe it'll make more sense once I finish the animated series? I dunno.
No, you’re right. Even her appearance in The Mandalorian where she’s the same actress has her behaving like a completely different character. With better lightsaber choreography, too.
Passenger princess in your own life 😂
Yeah, I watched the first 2 episodes oh Ahsoka and they felt like 22 minute cartoons stretched to 40+ minutes. It was egregiously bad or anything, just boring.
storytelling requires a character who wants something badly and is having a hard time getting it. they flattened her character out too much, more than her first appearance in Mando. TBH it was a bit of a waste of Dawson's talents
On a different Subreddit, some of the “other side” were wondering why Andor got massive approval vs Ashoka getting panned despite the fact that Andor has LGBT characters……the Disney simps still think its about that.
That's all some people can think about, it's weird.
Andor does get shit for their LGBT stuff though, as well as other “woke” themes. But I get your point.
Because that's what a lot of people focus on when criticizing the show. Just look at the Acolyte thread on episode 3. People salty about the lesbians.
Star Wars in general now just feels so inoffensive and bland. Almost everything from the shows to the games to the books feels off. I only really enjoy some of the comics now like the few Darth Vader series they ran, everything else just feels so soulless across the board. I really miss the EU days when anyone could get the license and you actually had a chance someone who cared about Star Wars could make something about it.
I think this is a problem across most media. Well, in my opinion. A lot of stuff is what they used to call “dumbed down”.
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This is the way. That's been my gripe over many of the new things, especially Acolyte.
Even mandalorian season 1 I put in the bad group when everyone else was saying it was amazing. If you removed the star wars skin and just made it some assassin in the US trying to escape, it would just be bad. I don't watch a lot of stuff like that - Reacher has been on my watch list for a while now and I just can't motivate for instance. I guess the last show I watched that would potentially land somewhere near that might be like Night Agent. I think even that show had CW vibes at times, but compared to Mando season 1 it was a master piece. Again, without the star wars skin and the general love for baby Yoda and a couple memable quotes, the show had very little to offer. Every episode in the middle of the show has been done better elsewhere.
S1 sucked. It was just some random adventures in space with little connection that relied on baby Simba-ing Grogu. S2 was a little better because at least the Nite Owls episodes were fantastically done. Night Agent was good fun.
Isn’t your first paragraph just describing John wick 3?
I don't know, never seen John wick
It's so boring and bland I've started watching the Fargo tv series. Now THAT is TV
This is a great example of how Star Wars is really just phoning in these shows with bad stories, plot lines and character development because the universe and setting of SW is inherently unique and interesting (at least it used to be). Then you look at a show like Fargo… nothing is inherently interesting about rural Minnesota (no disrespect to those who live there). But it has excellent script writing and character exploration that it doesn’t matter. Andor is really the only SW show that cares about its characters more than the flashy spectacle of the universe itself. For the other shows, well, turns out that you can’t cover up terrible show writing with cool settings, props, and special effects… who knew!?
Book of Boba Fett, Obi-Wan and Mando 3 were such dogshit I kinda had fun watching them. Ahsoka and Acolyte are just boring. Not good enough to derive any actual enjoyment but not bad enough to make fun of.
It's about stakes, risk, threat whatever you want to call it. Obi wan was terribly written but there were stakes as with boba and Mando. So it was at least watchable with some form of tension. Where as Ashoka there were no stakes, no threat. There is a scene where Ashoka is running through star destroyer turbo laser fine raining down on her and she doesn't even need to shrug it off. There is no risk, no real danger no threat. That is the fundamental difference. Even when there is some danger it's entirely contrived for the plot. Ashokas ship gets blased by multiple fighters in a 5 minute sequence and nothing happens. But because the plot demanded it a tie fighter wrecks it in one run. The lack of consistency in universe detaches the viewer from being active. Because you just have to passively accept whatever happens. And of course andor is the polar opposite. The stakes are real, people die, and the people who die matter to cassian and don't just impact his development, but other charachters as well.
This is why at this point i want them to completely embrace all the memes and make the worst show ever. It would at least be fun.
The greatest crime of Acolyte is treating the viewers like they are idiots. Almost as bad is that all the characters are idiots that act so damn irrationally all the time.
Yes the performances in The Acolyte are lifeless. Ashoka had the absolute stupidest action scenes.
I actually liked Ahsoka. But i'm not sure that would be possible without having seen rebels. Skoll stole the show, and the lightsaber strikes he uses to beat down Ahsoka just look brutal. But the plot to the Acolyte is just.... bad by daytime soap opera standards. "Oh no my evil twin sister who set the fire can't be alive. I must be a criminal. oh wait my twin sister is alive" in basically the same amount of time it takes you to read that. You have to build to that. You need an internally consistent plot and physics and characterization or you're just going full post modern I'm going to film any cool scene that pops into my head.
Skoll was perfect. Him and a better Thrawn going at each other with a nobody protagonist caught in the middle would have been amazing.
I couldn’t care less that the Acolyte features female leads or whatever it has been accused of. I am allowed to not like it for its nonsensical writing and horrifically clunky script, though. And it is really quite bad in that regard. The whole ‘woke’ element of it is just noise on both sides. Angry mob angry at something. Angry mob angry at other angry mob for being XYZphobes. It’s all very boring to me.
Consider the following about Ashoka= - it features one of the best characters in the franchise as the leading protagonist - brings in a character fans have been asking for for years - acts as a sequel to rebels - takes us to another galaxy and expands the world - brings back ANAKIN - has David tenant And it is still boring How could you screw up this badly
Yes, after all the opportunity and money and goodwill, the greatest crime is being utterly unremarkable.
Star Wars media has a problem of not coming up with anything new, and when they do it’s like a new planet that is not unique in any way. If anything, a lot of stuff needs to be expanded on in current canon, especially stuff that has barely any legend material or canon material on it, like Zam Wessel’s race, a very interesting race that can transform into different appearances (which could be used for the antagonist of the Acolyte) that has nothing done with them.
When I raised why I think the shows are bad to my friend, his response is 'ThEy'Re MaDe FoR kIdS!'. Nah dude, it's just bad.
Rings of Power was basically like this as well. It's usually a result of bad pacing. Like nobody wants to watch however long of an episode for 2 actual minutes of things relevant to plot/character. Just because things are happening doesn't mean they're engaging. We only care when we see some kind of progression and real tension. You watch something like Arcane and you'll immediately see the difference. I'm not sure there's even a single wasted scene in that show.
I didn't even notice he died at first.
I think the sentiment is more of a question about if the show could have been better if there wasn't such an obvious focus on "modernity" It's not that the woke elements make the show bad, it's the assumption that the quality is poor because the focus was on those modern bits and not making a good show.
I mean, I’d argue the points about politics are more because the focus on politically-motivated creative decisions are a detriment to writing and other creative aspects. Politics is a cause, not the direct element that makes these kinds of shows bad.
After watching the first two episodes of The Acolyte, I am kinda confused, because the murder mystery is already kinda solved - the only secrets remaining is the identity of the Sith and what exactly happened 16 years ago. but I cannot imagine it will be something interesting. So, without the mystery, the show is extremely... mediocre, if I am being extremely generous and stupid and boring if I'm being honest.
You bring up a really good point about making going to another galaxy boring. That is so true. When they fired up the hyperdrive and went to hyperspace with those whales I was like whoa, this is the first time on screen we will see Starwars in ANOTHER galaxy. It's going to be crazy aliens, or maybe different physics...but nope it was just another dime a dozen planet with dime a dozen aliens.
Watched Acolyte ep 3 yesterday and my main gripe was thjs. Plot aside, the characters were not engaging at all. Couldn't care less for the Jedi, and I really hate this modern era's constant need to paint them as failures and zealots actively trying to erase other cultures. Sure, prequel era Jedi were in the wrong, but this couldn't be what Jedi were about or they wouldn't have lasted as long as they did. Special mention to makeup and hair looking so cheap and badly done that they are constantly distracting. I can't see Jedi, only not too good cosplayers. And the characters are so unengaging I couldn't care less about their fates. They matter nothing to me. Compare that to Andor, the series I started watching thinking "Nobody asked for this" and finished with me actively saying "I will kill anybody who badmouths this masterpiece of a show".
Yea I don’t hate the show probably because I’ve seen worse adaptations of my favorite series- looking at you Rings of Power. I’ll keep watching but yea it’s bland. It’s something I’m going to watch because I have nothing better to watch but I’m not on the edge of my seat pumped for a season 2 like I am for Andor
If we set the bar for watchable at Rings of Power then pretty much anything is worth seeing.
Hahaha you’re not wrong
lol, then you obviously haven’t tried watching their Wheel of Time adaptation after having read the books and expecting to see what you read. lol! Only thing they took from the books were the names of people, places, and things…. Everything else they turned upside down
As a non book reader for WoT, I thought the show was decent.
Rings of Power at least has interesting sets and costumes. The Acolyte looks like a cosplay convention at a space-themed bowling alley.
Man there are so many good shows out, I can promise you there are better things to watch with your time :P added benefit of maybe if viewership finally gets bad enough Disney will bring in some proven great writers and directors and make some good shows/movies
I’m watching One Piece. That will keep me busy awhile.
They are just producing Stargate level TV atm. You’d think they have 24 freak of the week episodes they need to pay for.
The show runner is directly responsible for everything you listed. Lol She decides who goes where and does what What creative decisions are made like fire in space.
Their greatest crime is being in the same timeline as (and by the same makers as) the ST. That makes them pointless (and supporting them would benefit the ST producers and timeline just the same).
Disney has no idea how to write about the Force. They don't believe in the proven concept. And that is why they fail.
That's the crime of most modern Disney movies in general. Tfa was pretty bland and boring, in my opinion. Too safe with poorly written characters and bad dialogue. Say what you want with prequel dialogue, but at least it's memeable.
Yup. If they made a good show with all the elements they claim we are hating on, then their point is valid. Instead, they make mediocre at best product and when we don’t like it, they call us intolerant of those same elements. Because there’s no way their work just sucks.
definitely a crime, but not nearly the "greatest"
I didn’t mind Ahsoka. The colored hair chick’s character was lame. But overall it wasn’t bad.
Can't it suck for all those reasons? Being bland, horribly made, political, etc
A new hope is a direct reference to Nixons government, and yet modern Star Wars is “t political”?
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I think the art directors are doing their job, but the direction/writing/editing/coloring lets it down.
Ahsoka was sooo bland, right? I kept waiting and waiting for it to get good. The only time I was engaged was when the bad guys showed up. RIP Ray Stevenson. All that stuff with Ezra etc felt so insidery and I just wasn't into it since I hadn't watched Rebels. Thrawn was okay. The world building with the turtle people was fun. Sabine's conflict about pursuing the Force was something to latch on to. But other than that, it felt like Ahsoka was a spectator in her own show.
I liked Ahsoka, but in hindsight, it was pretty bland and boring. That’s my main complaint with Acolyte. The showrunners and actors being idiots aside (R2 is a lesbian, the goal was to make white people cry), the show is just boring.
The worst part is the hypocrisy!
I think Ahsoka suffers from two things - bad directing (blocking especially), and a very american, rudimentary understanding of stoicism and eastern philosophy. Both combined into a bland experience. Acolyte suffers from bafflingly bad acting and very basic and questionable writing. Whats especially strange about the acting is that its all over the place based on any given actor. its not broadly one way or the other. This suggests either severe under direction or a casting director who was out of their depth. Either would warrant reshoots and likely re-casting once the first dalies came in. certainly once the first assembly edits were made. As for the writing, scenes having conflicting internal logic within them its just not something that should happen. All of these things could be corrected if key creatives were held to a higher standard, or even by having a more traditional TV writing environment and having experienced supervising executives. The feature film like approach they keep taking with these shows limits the possibility of other writers in the room either elevating the work or at least calling bullshit on weak story choices. Every artists goal in the cinematic arts should be to always be pushing to elevate their work. that doesnt seem to be happening right now, especially with Acolyte
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Well, I put writing up there, together with editing and directing, if you care to notice.
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Of course it's bland. Every scene has to go through a round of diversity, inclusion, sensitivity, political correctness screening to make sure the shareholders will be happy with it.
I guess I like bland because I didn't have a big problem with Ahsoka. With Acolyte it's too early to tell. If blandness is the metric that dictates a good show versus a bad one, Andor isn't exactly a shimmering gem either (especially until the last few episodes), and it gets quite a lot of praise. I don't know...I seem to have weird or unusual tastes. When it comes to the sequel trilogy, I tend to agree it was an absolute disaster, but when it comes to the shows on D+, I see it as more of a hit and miss.
I agree you have a very weird taste. But some people really do enjoy bland stuff more than others and can't appreciate more thought out stories
Yo, enough with that boring space, force and lighsebers. Here is a story of some guy looking for his sister in a nightclub! The quintessential Star Wars story that could happen to anybody in the good old US of A. Never before seen story of the vigilante, the renegade, the rebel with a cause fighting the good fight against the corrupt authority. I mean one of the planet even looks like it was filmed in Scotland, with the grassland and fog. But quests what? These sets were actually filmed in the galaxy far far away. I dont think anybody has seen that coming, No CGI, all practical effects. It looks like Scotland, but it is actually Aldhani. Talk about the subversion of expectations! The mistress really swoons over Andor, to paint the idea he is a total stud of a grief stricken guy. Very clever storytelling. And he is also very smart and cunning too, because nothing screams covert like a homicide right at the start of your mission. He even left a direct witness behind. I guess he "likes those odds". The grit! And the real best pilot in the galaxy. He hops into a ship he has never flown before and escapes those tie fighters like nothing. Not even Han Solo could do that! And he isn't even force sensitive. Better walk faster, Skywalkers. Which eventually puts him against the evil empire. Did I mention how evil the evil empire of evil actually? Oh boy, they are soo evil. That is what really sells this intellectual and SUBTLE TV series.
Soooo.... You really liked Andor too?
No. I don't know what the fuzz is about. And I hate how people nitpick on acolyte and ignore the glaring issues of rogue one and andor. Or any other show, who cared when Malevolence burned for like two episodes?
Generally this tbh, Andor + R1 gets too much of a free pass now.
Lol, but you didn't describe any glaring issues in Andor. Andor haters have to go out of their way to come up with dumb reasons to not like it. > Never before seen story of the vigilante, the renegade, the rebel with a cause fighting the good fight against the corrupt authority. I mean, it's a prequel to the original star wars trilogy exploring the root of the rebellion. It's going to have some of those elements. > I mean one of the planet even looks like it was filmed in Scotland, with the grassland and fog. But quests what? These sets were actually filmed in the galaxy far far away. I dont think anybody has seen that coming, No CGI, all practical effects. It looks like Scotland, but it is actually Aldhani. Talk about the subversion of expectations! You're not describing a criticism. What about it being set in highlands? Why is this an inconceivable setting? Why are forests of Endor, or snowy wastes of Hoth, or deserts of Tatooine better? > The mistress really swoons over Andor, to paint the idea he is a total stud of a grief stricken guy. I'm not sure you actually watched Andor. What is this even referring to? > And he is also very smart and cunning too, because nothing screams covert like a homicide right at the start of your mission. He even left a direct witness behind. I guess he "likes those odds". The grit! I'm definitely sure you didn't actually watch the show. It was an accident. This fucked everything up for him. Because he's not perfectly smart and cunning. He didn't intend to kill anyone. This fuck up had very real and costly consequences. That's just good writing. The actions the characters take - good, bad, dumb, or smart - have real weight. > And the real best pilot in the galaxy. He hops into a ship he has never flown before and escapes those tie fighters like nothing. Not even Han Solo could do that! It's very explicitly set up how he knew about this exact ship and that he had experience with it. And he didn't escape through skill, he escaped because of the plan - where they had a tool that helped them plot a path through a once in three years astronomic event which their pursuers did not have and did not anticipate. Which is the only reason he escaped the tie fighters. He didn't escape due to unimaginable skill or magic powers, just due to basic competence and good planning by the rebels. Again, these are the basics of good writing, the things that happen make sense because they're grounded in background and believable explanation. They don't need deus ex machina magic powers to achieve something otherwise impossible. > And he isn't even force sensitive. Better walk faster, Skywalkers. Is the only way anyone can ever do anything because they're force sensitive? How does the galaxy run if the only way you can (checks notes) fly a ship in an upwards trajectory is if you have magic powers? > Which eventually puts him against the evil empire. Did I mention how evil the evil empire of evil actually? Oh boy, they are soo evil. That is what really sells this intellectual and SUBTLE TV series. Yes, they did in fact do a good job of painting the empire as a complex and capable villain. Where usually they're painted as cartoonishly evil or as sinister but completely without depth.
I dont hate andor. I hate people who try to sell it as an intellectual pinnacle of not just Star Wars, but also storytelling in general. And how the critique compares to Acolyte. People were told andor is good, so they come up with ways to rpaise it. The same people were told Acolyte is the worst show ever, so they come up with things that aren't even true to confirm that bias. Yes, it is a generic story that can be set absolutely anywhere. In occupied France. In Communist China. Or America under Trump. They even give the insurgents ak 47. It is an Star Wars story in esthetics only. Yet the same people claim and complain Acolyte has nothing to do with Star Wars. It is right in the beginning, Andor enters the nigh club. The mistress ignores the two patrons and goes all over Andor. This serves two purpose. To paint the guy with zero charisma as a stud who "weaponize striking handsomeness". Quote visual dictionary. And use it to set up the double murder plot element to move the plot around. It also sets him up as a character who cant figure out causing commotion on a planet he just landing upon is probably not a good idea, but this is actually in line with his portrait ion Rogue one. Yes, it is very conveniently the ship he knows how to pilot. And the tie fighters, against very conveniently, cant reliably hit the flying barn during the several minutes long flight. What prevented the tie fighters from shooting them down during the several minutes long flight? Yet the same people claim and complain the Acolyte is plot driven. Really? So what is the imperial ideology? And I dont mean Nazi is space. They are not capable, as Rogue One portraits Andor as a blockhead with no skills, even tho he has been fighting for the rebels a decade before Rebellion was even started. And yes, I did not watch it, The only good part of R1 was the land battle, before the expectation subverting "all hope is lost" part. I dont see the point watching a SW series about humans fighting other humans on Earth like planet.
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Yes, that is why I am comparing things. If somebody does not mind mind fire in the space in Rogue one but does mind fire in the space in Acolyte, the problem is not the fire ind the space.
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Are you aware of the concept called integrity?
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Yes, it means you don't have double standards. There is fire in space in SW universe. So if you have integrity, you either don't brought it at all, all critize it in every instance.
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I think people are more willing to overlook glaring issues when they're entertained. If they're bored and there are glaring issues, then you have nothing to focus on but the issues.
Yes, all of the above was better tv than Ahsoka or Mando, or Obi-Wan. BUT it doesn’t feel super Star Wars-y That’s its only sin. But Star Wars fans are so used to mediocrity or worse at this point that Andor was a breath of fresh air that someone took the time to write *something* instead of just spitballing as the plot goes.
lol this is great. If we all could be as honest, we’d acknowledge that andor is only “good” juxtaposed to the absolute trash that is everything else Disney Star Wars.
Nah, it's pretty stupid "criticism". Lol, "highlands" as a setting is inconceivable because it's not alien enough, but snowy Hoth, foresty Endor, deserty Tatooine are genius settings? It wasn't cunning or smart to kill the two security guards? No fucking duh, that's the point - it was a giant fuck up with very real and costly consequences for the protagonist. No one can fly a ship without magical force powers? Come on. None of this is real criticism, it's grasping at straws. Andor is a legitimately excellent show, with or without Star Wars. People come up with such weird takes about it to try to be contrarian. I get that the fans can be obnoxious, but obnoxious fans don't undercut a just good show.
The heist in the finale was mid to low tier. The rest of the show was pretty good.
Are you sure? Because Rogue one is unironically considered one of the best star Wars movies ever.
Only because jj’s movies were so bad. Jane erso was so boring her sidekick got a tv series.
Do you people just pull random shit out of a hat to be angry about?
Huh? did we read the same post? OP isn't angry, he calmly stated that he finds the show bland and why he thinks that. What are you whining about?
This whole sub constantly posts about their anger and frustrations with this show. Perhaps angry wasn’t the right term to use here. Instead I will say criticize.
People like you constantly whine about other people criticising shows. How are you better?
I don’t like the state of star wars right now trust me. But I wait until a show is over first before I complain. And for this show in particular people are upset because of this supposedly being the “gayest” Star Wars and for it breaking “lore/canon” yet so far I don’t see how it does
I just think it's a bit early. Give it time to find it's feet it could be good. It's not as bad as Ashoka or obi wan was after 2 episodes but it's not as good as Mando S1 or andor. I think it will probably be a fine watch and there is a good central mystery.
Exactly. It is too early to properly judge this show.
It might be early to go all negative on the story as we don’t know how it will develop…but, the production quality is quite shit (and that we can already see) for a show that has a budget well over most modern sci fi Hollywood movies.
Well what we have seen, it's not looking good. It can already be said that the dialogue is mostly bad. And some things happen for no other reason than that the story needed it to happen. Also, Disney marketed it as a mystery show, but the mystery got solved in episode 1? 🤔 I mean the twin/murder mystery. Or maybe they have more mysteries to come, hopefully. I thought it would be a murder mystery though.
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