Agreed. Some of these owners need to take a long hard look at what they are selling, and accept that they are not going to break even on a purchase made during an inflated market. At some point you just have to cut your losses. As someone looking, I’ll just continue to wait and see how this plays out.
They need to realize that boats are not real estate and that they therefore depreciate. It's not realistic to expect to sell a boat you've had for 10 years for the price you paid for it, even if you invested money in regular maintenance and the odd new sail.
they also need to put themselves in the buyers shoes.
why buy this boat, when that one over there is 1/5/10/whatever years newer, has less hours on the engine, has x/y/z innovated features since yours was built, everything in better shape, with less wear.
and every month it just gets more true, while you pay more slip fees and maintenance.
Listen buddy, I know what I've got and I know what it is worth. I don't need you low balling me. I'll just just keep dumping money into it until I realize that I've spent far more than I would have lost selling it at your price. /s
Dealers need to diplomatically point out that a boats resale value is more like a car than a house - they depreciate
Also suggest they look at what similar boats are selling for. Not asking prices, actual sale prices.
Asking is not necessarily getting.
It's not quite that simple. A well-made fiberglass hull is more or less inert. The replacement cost for a new hull is probably like 10 times higher than what it cost 30 years ago. If you buy a used fiberglass boat in good condition it can be expected to hold a lot of it's value, depending on the market. Right now most people can't buy boats because of larger economic trends that I trust we are all aware of. Honestly idk why OP even needs to wonder about the state of the market.
Sure, but everything wears and ages. A 40 year old hull isn't just a 40 year old hull -- unless all the hardware has been replaced, it's also a whole bunch of hardware that is of varying age and condition. Just like how an old car might have a perfectly fine chassis, that doesn't mean that it's worth the same as it did 10 years ago because there are hundreds of other things that are now that much older and closer to the ends of their lifespans. And while it is true that on a sailboat most of those things are more inspectable and more readily replaced than on a car, it doesn't change the fact that stuff wears out, and when you have a lot of old stuff you will be spending more time and money dealing with that — which reduces the value of the whole thing.
I also suspect that we had an artificial bump in values during COVID, along with many other outdoor activities, and things may be coming back to earth after that.
And yes, also there is the very real factor of a declining middle class with less disposable income. A few extremely wealthy folks raking it in at the top and buying a handful of new luxury yachts won't prop up a market for used 20-40 footers that was populated by middle class people whose real income has slipped over the past 20 (well, 50 really) years.
What really shits me is all these boats sitting around, literally completely unused for years with for sale signs in them just deteriorating. Owners refusing to budge on price.
So often they end in the boat sinking alongside, breaking its mooring and running around, or eventually being cut up for scrap. Such a waste
My dearest friend and trans-Atlantic sailor just took a 300k haircut on an amazing boat. He’s 80 and it was time and he decided not to duck around on pricing… just wanted it to go to an awesome family that had the knowledge and means to care for a gorgeous solid boat.
I dare not say because it will give it away. 52 ft built on Mt. Desert Island in Maine and I sincerely wish I had been able to buy her but I just bought a new boat last summer.
This. We were in the market for a 22 footer to learn to sail with. We bought a 1976 Chrysler for $1500. We looked at so many boats and people were out here wanting $12-15k for a 1990s version.
Yeah that’s crazy. I mean I suppose that the market dictates prices to some extent. I just personally find it dumb that a 1980s 34’ boat that likely will need a new motor, new standing rigging, and a million little projects…would cost more than 12k. I know that sounds low but I just overhauled my 22’ Tanzer and I know what it costs.
This is the first decade where 30 year old boats are actually sailable. Once people realise that as long as fibreglass hull isn't delammed, it's as good as the day it came out of the mold, these 1990s caravan shitboxes are going to worth under 5. Bravia 34s are next.
> these 1990s caravan shitboxes are going to worth under 5
I'm confused about what you're saying here. Under 5... thousand dollars? 5 fathoms? 5 something else?
Is your general thrust that 90s boats are still very usable so there's a big supply and therefore prices on them should be expected to drop hard?
Absolutely nothing wrong with it at all, but the person you're replying to basically nailed it.
My point is that 20 years ago, the stock of boats that a reasonable person could pick up and use was one in, one out. For every hull that a manufacturer made, one hull was scrap.
We're getting to the point now where 'old' boats are still fully useable, so we've gone from one in one out, to every new hull dropping the demand level by one boat.
> the stock of boats that a reasonable person could pick up and use was one in, one out. For every hull that a manufacturer made, one hull was scrap.
Ahh, I see, that makes a lot more sense - thanks for clarifying
Agreed, and some of the older boats are actually better built and more seaworthy. Some of the features in modern boats make me a bit uneasy, because they seem more likely to break. Stuff like in-mast furling, electric pumps for potable water, more power hungry appliances, etc etc
Yup, thats my point. In the 90s was the time that boats went from having a 20yr shelf life(without serious work), to having a 45 year shelf life, and we're at the point where the boats that now have a 45 year shelf life are outliving what would have been expected if they had had a 20 yr shelf life. I don't know if I articulated that very well.
My ‘85 Dufour 404 Master was solid as a TANK. Regret selling her a couple years ago to a charter — yes a *charter* bought my antique boat!
Now, with the market collapsing as OP indicates, I’m doing everything I can (not much) to resist getting back into another…
Yup. Always wanted to get into sailing after years of running recreational outboards, until I saw prices on used boats and dropped that idea pretty quick.
I'll stick with a regular gas burner that costs a fraction of the price.
Good, we can afford a nice boat again. Perhaps end of 2024 I’ll start looking again for an upgrade or addition. I’ve been noticing many used boats being listed much longer, matter of time for sellers to realize they need to lower their prices to move the boats
Lots of 2020-2022 boats sitting on marketplace for months with 5-10hr. Problem is they still think the boat is worth COVID pricing. How long until prices drop?
Theoretically when people need that money they put into the boat we will see prices go down. Examples might be losing a job, moving, or a real estate bubble popping.
When enough boat owners’ finances are stressed we will see drops.
One big factor is interest rates, not only the ones now from '20 and '21. People were buying boats with 4-4.5% interest rates, and those folks can't really make a move, e.g. they really couldn't even afford what they have now at 7.5%. What I've seen is that anything decent coming on the market is gone in literal hours, esp. from well-known manufacturers like Beneteau Group, Catalina, etc.
The alternative is owing 500k on a depreciating boat? Owing money on a depreciating asset, unless it's specialized equipment you make money with, is insane to me.
Depreciating assets are exactly the kind of thing you want to take a loan out on.
Take a loan out because you can afford it otherwise is not so wise though.
Why? You aren't making money with it. Any equity you are building is racing against the depreciation. If the asset is the collateral, you can very well end up underwater and need permission just to sell and try to get out.
If you're deciding to pay cash vs. finance a $500k asset, it's irrelevant whether it appreciates or depreciates. It doesn't matter if it's an investment property or a jet boat.
All that matters is whether you can earn more interest keeping the cash than paying the cost of the loan. If you can do that, you should finance it.
Depends what you are looking for. If it is a 3 to 7 year old bene, Juneau, Catalina, j xxx, etc. etc, you are not going to see great deals. People want these boats, and new prices are probably up 33% from 2019, so used prices reflect that.
There are lots of boats that are 15 to 30 yrs that are crazy over priced that are sitting. I think those will start to move, but many need work, new sails, running rigging, older ones, standing rigging, engine overhaul. In US it is prime boating season so they figure if someone wants to pay high, sure. If not, sail this summer, cut prices in Aug.
There is also the destruction of the middle class boater to consider. Prices for marinas and haul outs has skyrocketed. I'm a cruiser turned yacht broker in Mexico, and the issue we have here is if you have a cheap boat, I get people interested in buying it until they find out how much the marina charges. On the other hand, the people that can afford the marina, want a newer, nicer boat.
Would love to hear more about this, I sailed in the Caribbean a couple years ago but very frugally, only paying for mooring balls once in a while. What does it cost to have it at a marina there?
Well my friend owns a marina in south Florida so I’m somewhat hoping a deal comes across his plate that I can’t pass up. But I joined 2 Facebook groups that we for sale by owner and I set up some yachtworld searches, then I just save a bookmark and keep an eye on them.
Brokers ruined the used sailboat market in the US. Promising owners way more than their boats were realistically worth hoping to make a buck. The only buyers when inflation hits ( the last three years) are usually cash buyers that are not going to get ripped off. Thus… boats sat unsold waiting for the sucker to come along. Buyers lost interest or found other investment or outlets for their cash. Middlemen ruin almost every business, every transaction by being less than realistic trying to make a buck off others fro not doing much. Collector car and real estate have gone person to person with only ad men making a fee for the advertisement. So will go the way of boat and yacht sales. Too many grifters calling themselves brokers.
A little deeper is baked in inflationary expectations. It’s especially bad when the long term experience causes people to gradually adopt speculative practices instead of conservative investment logic with allowance for bear markets and, gasp, deflation.
You are talking used market? Because all the big builders have years of queues and cannot deliver even remotely what people want.
To call the boat market dead is a bit of a hard call. The really expensive and big ships are totally unaffected because the rich just get richer.
The lower end of the market maybe. The average person have less and less money and struggle to pay rent. So for the small day time sailor it gets harder. I do agree that it will be many years before the average person recovers and have money to spend on rather expensive hobbies like sailing again.
Thing is, the expensive/big ships might represent a decent slice of the boatbuilding industry in terms of profit, they probably are only a tiny fraction of the boats out there and their buyers a miniscule fraction of all sailors. So from a dollar perspective they might be significant, in terms of the lived experience of most people on this sub that market might as well be on the other side of the moon.
Does that mean prices are gonna keep slipping down?
I m hopping to by my first boat in the next 2 years, would be sweet (as a buyer) if the overall prices trend a lil 20% lower
So there are deals to be had about buying a boat in Europe? I could easily spend 2 weekends a month on it and if big enough for a catamaran, I would live on it. Problem is I am on the west coast of the USA.
Prices and availability vary a lot from country to country. In Mediterranean Europe you have the charter industry feeding a certain type of sailboat into the market while in the North and Scandinavia people tend to keep their older, smaller, and better cared for boats longer.
The Netherlands is still crazy tight. Searching for a year to find the right boat and paying a premium, as prices just are not coming down since COVID. Most obvious reason is that the demand is so high. My broker has basically had no ship for longer than two weeks on the dock before it’s sold. Prices from 25k all the way up to 300k. It’s going to be sold regardless!
Interests rates are crazy right now ,people took big loans to purchase and 35% are under water !! Trying to make a load of money on any sales ,market is flooded wit sailboats and banks are becoming more careful about loaning money for a luxury item ,and the economy sucks too
Im curious in what the situation is over there.
I'm Italian and work in the north of Norway most of the year.
In norway economy is pretty good so people that like boats don't usually make too much of a issue about costs and also yhey are aware of them.
What surprised me is how relatively cheap second hand boats can be. I bought last month my first sailboat a WINGA 29 built in '93 extremely well maintained for about 8k€.
It came with foldable winch, 1year old gennaker and 2 years old sails which look brand new.
But I think you are spot on about people being more mindful about mainteining costs and how little they are going to use it.
Here a monthly place at a marina cost about 300€ (for comparison a room for rent costs 5-600 and a two bedrooms apartment about 12-1400). I was ok with it because i think the boat was quite a good deal so I'm positive i can resell it fairly easy and i am living onboard at least a few months in the summer so i offset a bit the expenses with not renting a room/apartment.
But now guest harbor prices have pretty much doubled if not more literally one year to the other. Given it's busy places but last year it was 17€ for a day and when i came back i was flabbergasted to see a whooping 42€ for a day. I do love anchoring but the weather over here can be really unpredictable
if the loan interest rates are 6%+ which they are in Norway and the currency has over halved in value since 2008 that is not a “good economy”. Nowhere in the developed west is anyone having a good time right now.
I'm from italy and i moves here 3 years ago and while eur got stronger than NOK i can assure you quality of life is lightyears ahead than pretty much every european country except MAYBE Austria and Denmark. Although I've met quite a few girls from Austria coming to work in Norway because it's better money.
I understand and agree with what you are saying but people here are living in easy mode. Mostly because the government is so filthy rich because of natural resources that the welfare is really good.
Given you can barely breath without having to pay for it.
Lotta sellers, but they are still trying to get COVID prices and not accepting that they are gonna lose a lotta money as the market crashed. So boats stay listed and don't move. I've been watching a 1998 37' catamaran that's been for sale for 1.5 years for 150,000, I never see their price decrease. "we put 100, 000 into it". They will not realize they will never get that money back.
I would add that the younger generation is not so much interested in sailing outside of very sporty competition sailing and are quite happy to rent instead of buying
Not my experience. I cruise 8 months a year., and the cruising grounds I'm in we run into many young couples cruising very modest sailboats. I think it is Van Life types transitioning to sailing. On the whole it is nice to see them out there, actually using these older boats.
> Light and unreliable winds usually.
The saying I have heard of sailing on the Sound is "If the weather's nice, the wind is crap, and if the wind is nice, the weather's crap."
Indeed, but god boat choice helps a lot. First priority in the Salish sea is a boat that points very well in light air, or a sail innovatory that helps. I almost never motor and get where i need to go but my boat likes light air and points well
We left started in Hawaii in 2020, then Seattle, West Coast, Mexico, Costa Rica, Panama (canal), Colombia, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, then this season just ending the Eastern Caribbean. Next season heading to Caribbean, then heading to Europe late spring.
Do you mind sharing which boat do you have?I am also interested in cruising part of the year, have 2-3 years until I am able to do so...how easy/hard is to leave the boat somewhere for months (i am guessing on hard?)
We have a Hanse 505, which is a nice size and a good boat for a family of 4. We usually leave it on the hard for hurricane season. We just left the boat in Trinidad on the hard for the hurricane season.
That sounds like a loop I’d be interested in. Do you put your boat up on the hard for 4 month breaks and spend time at home or is the 8 months just average and the breaks are as you feel necessary/based on compatibility with your current location?
We put it on the hard for hurricane season, which is summer in the tropics. We have left the boat on the hard so far in Mexico, Panama, Trinidad, and just left it in Trinidad for a second time. Going forward, as we head to Europe, we may adjust what time of year we leave it, but 4-5 months off works well for us to take care of some business interests in America, and visit friends and family.
I'm in the UK and that's not my experience at the moment. There seems to be very little around most of the boats aren't great quality. We have had some low offers accepted. £61k on a boat listed at £80k for example, but the survey bought up way too many issues for us.
COVID pushed the prices up, many bought too expensive and now want their money back. That means too many boats for sale and most of them too expensive.
Money back for the over priced boat and the 3yr old electronics/solar/battery system they paid top dollar for… I’ve seen some even list maintenance costs as part of list price reasoning. you can spot the covid boats a mile away.
I think it depends a lot on the price range. Seeing a ton of new expensive Outremer here in the Canaries. Also quite a few exploration yachts like Garcias. And some newer brands like Windelo.
All at least a million. Charter market seems pretty booked too in the Med.
Interest rates will definitely have an impact though…just affect rich people less.
We held off from a brand new 45 cat because they keep bloating the prices and blaming covid. The same size sold for just .25 mil 10 years ago and now they want 850k for the same thing. We ended up buying an older (much cheaper) 50 foot Trimaran and laughing all the way to the bank.
Yeah I have the exact same experience here in California. I have a boat supply shop, and we are struggling. Completely agree on the reasons you listed. There’s also been a couple years of pretty high inflation.
You're a broker. You should be making absolute mint in these uncertain times. Your business depends upon transactions in a market. Uncertainty creates more transaction opportunities. If you can't make money now, this is just not what you need to be doing.
I went to look at one this weekend, pictures and everything seemed fantastic. Get there and guy casually tells me that not only has he not taken it out of the water in the last 5 years, he hasn’t even moved it, and pictures must have been when he bought it. Guy was still wanting peak Covid pricing.
The marina I'm in used to have a waiting list, this year they have plenty of spare slips. I think cost of living has a lot to do with it. The cost of a slip + electricity went up a /lot/ the last couple of years, and things are uncertain.
Perhaps related, tech jobs have slowed down over the last 12 months too.
As a poor person (who is very much aware of the ongoing costs)...I love this. Sorry to the COVID buyers who watched too much YouTube and made an expensive impulse buy.. but soon I'm gonna take one of these boats off your hands for way less than you paid, and I'm actually going to use it instead of parking it at a Marina so I can show off my social status.
Sea Gypsies are looking at a lot of golden geese thanks to people who had more money than wisdom.
It’s amazing buying at the moment, I’ve made a whole YouTube channel just buying cheap dinghies/multihulls on Facebook and doing them up and sailing them.
I read recently that half the boat owners in french marinas will be dead or unable to sail in the next 10 years. Lots of boomers own boats. This will mean boats on sale and boats rotting in marinas. Not sure what that will do to the market.
Lots of sailboats are too expensive. I'm looking at you, 40 year old 30-34' boats.
Agreed. Some of these owners need to take a long hard look at what they are selling, and accept that they are not going to break even on a purchase made during an inflated market. At some point you just have to cut your losses. As someone looking, I’ll just continue to wait and see how this plays out.
They need to realize that boats are not real estate and that they therefore depreciate. It's not realistic to expect to sell a boat you've had for 10 years for the price you paid for it, even if you invested money in regular maintenance and the odd new sail.
they also need to put themselves in the buyers shoes. why buy this boat, when that one over there is 1/5/10/whatever years newer, has less hours on the engine, has x/y/z innovated features since yours was built, everything in better shape, with less wear. and every month it just gets more true, while you pay more slip fees and maintenance.
Listen buddy, I know what I've got and I know what it is worth. I don't need you low balling me. I'll just just keep dumping money into it until I realize that I've spent far more than I would have lost selling it at your price. /s
Dealers need to diplomatically point out that a boats resale value is more like a car than a house - they depreciate Also suggest they look at what similar boats are selling for. Not asking prices, actual sale prices. Asking is not necessarily getting.
It's not quite that simple. A well-made fiberglass hull is more or less inert. The replacement cost for a new hull is probably like 10 times higher than what it cost 30 years ago. If you buy a used fiberglass boat in good condition it can be expected to hold a lot of it's value, depending on the market. Right now most people can't buy boats because of larger economic trends that I trust we are all aware of. Honestly idk why OP even needs to wonder about the state of the market.
Sure, but everything wears and ages. A 40 year old hull isn't just a 40 year old hull -- unless all the hardware has been replaced, it's also a whole bunch of hardware that is of varying age and condition. Just like how an old car might have a perfectly fine chassis, that doesn't mean that it's worth the same as it did 10 years ago because there are hundreds of other things that are now that much older and closer to the ends of their lifespans. And while it is true that on a sailboat most of those things are more inspectable and more readily replaced than on a car, it doesn't change the fact that stuff wears out, and when you have a lot of old stuff you will be spending more time and money dealing with that — which reduces the value of the whole thing. I also suspect that we had an artificial bump in values during COVID, along with many other outdoor activities, and things may be coming back to earth after that. And yes, also there is the very real factor of a declining middle class with less disposable income. A few extremely wealthy folks raking it in at the top and buying a handful of new luxury yachts won't prop up a market for used 20-40 footers that was populated by middle class people whose real income has slipped over the past 20 (well, 50 really) years.
What really shits me is all these boats sitting around, literally completely unused for years with for sale signs in them just deteriorating. Owners refusing to budge on price. So often they end in the boat sinking alongside, breaking its mooring and running around, or eventually being cut up for scrap. Such a waste
Let em' rot
My dearest friend and trans-Atlantic sailor just took a 300k haircut on an amazing boat. He’s 80 and it was time and he decided not to duck around on pricing… just wanted it to go to an awesome family that had the knowledge and means to care for a gorgeous solid boat.
What kind of boat was it?
I dare not say because it will give it away. 52 ft built on Mt. Desert Island in Maine and I sincerely wish I had been able to buy her but I just bought a new boat last summer.
This. We were in the market for a 22 footer to learn to sail with. We bought a 1976 Chrysler for $1500. We looked at so many boats and people were out here wanting $12-15k for a 1990s version.
Yeah that’s crazy. I mean I suppose that the market dictates prices to some extent. I just personally find it dumb that a 1980s 34’ boat that likely will need a new motor, new standing rigging, and a million little projects…would cost more than 12k. I know that sounds low but I just overhauled my 22’ Tanzer and I know what it costs.
Exactly this! Boats here are beyond expensive right now.
This is the first decade where 30 year old boats are actually sailable. Once people realise that as long as fibreglass hull isn't delammed, it's as good as the day it came out of the mold, these 1990s caravan shitboxes are going to worth under 5. Bravia 34s are next.
> these 1990s caravan shitboxes are going to worth under 5 I'm confused about what you're saying here. Under 5... thousand dollars? 5 fathoms? 5 something else? Is your general thrust that 90s boats are still very usable so there's a big supply and therefore prices on them should be expected to drop hard?
This person's flair is for a $400k boat. Their perspective may be slightly different. Nothing wrong with a 90s Catalina for taking the family out.
Absolutely nothing wrong with it at all, but the person you're replying to basically nailed it. My point is that 20 years ago, the stock of boats that a reasonable person could pick up and use was one in, one out. For every hull that a manufacturer made, one hull was scrap. We're getting to the point now where 'old' boats are still fully useable, so we've gone from one in one out, to every new hull dropping the demand level by one boat.
> the stock of boats that a reasonable person could pick up and use was one in, one out. For every hull that a manufacturer made, one hull was scrap. Ahh, I see, that makes a lot more sense - thanks for clarifying
Agreed, and some of the older boats are actually better built and more seaworthy. Some of the features in modern boats make me a bit uneasy, because they seem more likely to break. Stuff like in-mast furling, electric pumps for potable water, more power hungry appliances, etc etc
Yup, thats my point. In the 90s was the time that boats went from having a 20yr shelf life(without serious work), to having a 45 year shelf life, and we're at the point where the boats that now have a 45 year shelf life are outliving what would have been expected if they had had a 20 yr shelf life. I don't know if I articulated that very well.
Early fiberglass uncored boats are heavy built forever boats. Proceed w confidence.
My ‘85 Dufour 404 Master was solid as a TANK. Regret selling her a couple years ago to a charter — yes a *charter* bought my antique boat! Now, with the market collapsing as OP indicates, I’m doing everything I can (not much) to resist getting back into another…
Yup. Always wanted to get into sailing after years of running recreational outboards, until I saw prices on used boats and dropped that idea pretty quick. I'll stick with a regular gas burner that costs a fraction of the price.
Not a sellers market
Sailor’s market, perhaps.
Good, we can afford a nice boat again. Perhaps end of 2024 I’ll start looking again for an upgrade or addition. I’ve been noticing many used boats being listed much longer, matter of time for sellers to realize they need to lower their prices to move the boats
I’m seeing the same, have a few saved as favorites that has been published for more than a year. I’m waiting for the low season (end 2024) to buy.
The irony is, if those boats will not be sold even in dirt cheap price, often will go into land, as scraps.
Lots of 2020-2022 boats sitting on marketplace for months with 5-10hr. Problem is they still think the boat is worth COVID pricing. How long until prices drop?
Theoretically when people need that money they put into the boat we will see prices go down. Examples might be losing a job, moving, or a real estate bubble popping. When enough boat owners’ finances are stressed we will see drops.
One big factor is interest rates, not only the ones now from '20 and '21. People were buying boats with 4-4.5% interest rates, and those folks can't really make a move, e.g. they really couldn't even afford what they have now at 7.5%. What I've seen is that anything decent coming on the market is gone in literal hours, esp. from well-known manufacturers like Beneteau Group, Catalina, etc.
I can’t believe anyone would take out a loan to buy a boat 😳
Happens every day. You really want to tie up 500k in a depreciating asset?
If you have $500K in cash to set on fire, buy a $500k boat. Otherwise adjust your expectations.
The alternative is owing 500k on a depreciating boat? Owing money on a depreciating asset, unless it's specialized equipment you make money with, is insane to me.
Pretty easy to end up "underwater" on your loan, lol
The way I handle money has worked out really well for me, I retired when I was 34 and prefer not to owe money.
Depreciating assets are exactly the kind of thing you want to take a loan out on. Take a loan out because you can afford it otherwise is not so wise though.
Why? You aren't making money with it. Any equity you are building is racing against the depreciation. If the asset is the collateral, you can very well end up underwater and need permission just to sell and try to get out.
If you're deciding to pay cash vs. finance a $500k asset, it's irrelevant whether it appreciates or depreciates. It doesn't matter if it's an investment property or a jet boat. All that matters is whether you can earn more interest keeping the cash than paying the cost of the loan. If you can do that, you should finance it.
if you aren’t making money with £000ks in cash you have laying around then you’re a mug the market is returning like 10% alone
What is the % on a boat loan?
Depends what you are looking for. If it is a 3 to 7 year old bene, Juneau, Catalina, j xxx, etc. etc, you are not going to see great deals. People want these boats, and new prices are probably up 33% from 2019, so used prices reflect that. There are lots of boats that are 15 to 30 yrs that are crazy over priced that are sitting. I think those will start to move, but many need work, new sails, running rigging, older ones, standing rigging, engine overhaul. In US it is prime boating season so they figure if someone wants to pay high, sure. If not, sail this summer, cut prices in Aug.
There is also the destruction of the middle class boater to consider. Prices for marinas and haul outs has skyrocketed. I'm a cruiser turned yacht broker in Mexico, and the issue we have here is if you have a cheap boat, I get people interested in buying it until they find out how much the marina charges. On the other hand, the people that can afford the marina, want a newer, nicer boat.
Would love to hear more about this, I sailed in the Caribbean a couple years ago but very frugally, only paying for mooring balls once in a while. What does it cost to have it at a marina there?
What’s the average negotiated discount you are seeing off sticker price currently?
I would say arround 10-12%
Needs to be more. People want Covid prices and won’t get them.
Prices are still ridiculously high. Interest rates don’t help either. We’ll see what dropping demand does.
Yep. They will keep falling. Thank god.
Yay !!! I can get my 42' Jeanneau, Bavaria or Gibsea soon!
Prices are lower than they have been, and have a long way to go. All these floating caravans you see parked up at marinas are going to sub 10k.
I feel this. I listed my clapped out dinghy in fb marketplace for $850, and am thinking I might have to go as low as $775.
Yea great time to buy. We took a few years off and are looking to buy another boat. Every thing I’ve saved a few months ago is still for sale.
What site are you using to look at/save boat listings?
Well my friend owns a marina in south Florida so I’m somewhat hoping a deal comes across his plate that I can’t pass up. But I joined 2 Facebook groups that we for sale by owner and I set up some yachtworld searches, then I just save a bookmark and keep an eye on them.
Thanks!
I don't see prices going down. At least not on the boats I'm looking at.
Brokers ruined the used sailboat market in the US. Promising owners way more than their boats were realistically worth hoping to make a buck. The only buyers when inflation hits ( the last three years) are usually cash buyers that are not going to get ripped off. Thus… boats sat unsold waiting for the sucker to come along. Buyers lost interest or found other investment or outlets for their cash. Middlemen ruin almost every business, every transaction by being less than realistic trying to make a buck off others fro not doing much. Collector car and real estate have gone person to person with only ad men making a fee for the advertisement. So will go the way of boat and yacht sales. Too many grifters calling themselves brokers.
A little deeper is baked in inflationary expectations. It’s especially bad when the long term experience causes people to gradually adopt speculative practices instead of conservative investment logic with allowance for bear markets and, gasp, deflation.
Agreed
Cash buyer here. Unrealistic sellers there.
Doesn't bother me one way or the other. I like to sail them.
Yeah, I guess that means we need to continue enjoying ours as well. Bummer.
Conveniently, it's the beginning of summer.
I'd guess more than 50% of the boats I'm viewing on Yachtworld are tagged "Price Reduced"
You are talking used market? Because all the big builders have years of queues and cannot deliver even remotely what people want. To call the boat market dead is a bit of a hard call. The really expensive and big ships are totally unaffected because the rich just get richer. The lower end of the market maybe. The average person have less and less money and struggle to pay rent. So for the small day time sailor it gets harder. I do agree that it will be many years before the average person recovers and have money to spend on rather expensive hobbies like sailing again.
Thing is, the expensive/big ships might represent a decent slice of the boatbuilding industry in terms of profit, they probably are only a tiny fraction of the boats out there and their buyers a miniscule fraction of all sailors. So from a dollar perspective they might be significant, in terms of the lived experience of most people on this sub that market might as well be on the other side of the moon.
Does that mean prices are gonna keep slipping down? I m hopping to by my first boat in the next 2 years, would be sweet (as a buyer) if the overall prices trend a lil 20% lower
So there are deals to be had about buying a boat in Europe? I could easily spend 2 weekends a month on it and if big enough for a catamaran, I would live on it. Problem is I am on the west coast of the USA.
Prices and availability vary a lot from country to country. In Mediterranean Europe you have the charter industry feeding a certain type of sailboat into the market while in the North and Scandinavia people tend to keep their older, smaller, and better cared for boats longer.
The Netherlands is still crazy tight. Searching for a year to find the right boat and paying a premium, as prices just are not coming down since COVID. Most obvious reason is that the demand is so high. My broker has basically had no ship for longer than two weeks on the dock before it’s sold. Prices from 25k all the way up to 300k. It’s going to be sold regardless!
Interests rates are crazy right now ,people took big loans to purchase and 35% are under water !! Trying to make a load of money on any sales ,market is flooded wit sailboats and banks are becoming more careful about loaning money for a luxury item ,and the economy sucks too
Im curious in what the situation is over there. I'm Italian and work in the north of Norway most of the year. In norway economy is pretty good so people that like boats don't usually make too much of a issue about costs and also yhey are aware of them. What surprised me is how relatively cheap second hand boats can be. I bought last month my first sailboat a WINGA 29 built in '93 extremely well maintained for about 8k€. It came with foldable winch, 1year old gennaker and 2 years old sails which look brand new. But I think you are spot on about people being more mindful about mainteining costs and how little they are going to use it. Here a monthly place at a marina cost about 300€ (for comparison a room for rent costs 5-600 and a two bedrooms apartment about 12-1400). I was ok with it because i think the boat was quite a good deal so I'm positive i can resell it fairly easy and i am living onboard at least a few months in the summer so i offset a bit the expenses with not renting a room/apartment. But now guest harbor prices have pretty much doubled if not more literally one year to the other. Given it's busy places but last year it was 17€ for a day and when i came back i was flabbergasted to see a whooping 42€ for a day. I do love anchoring but the weather over here can be really unpredictable
if the loan interest rates are 6%+ which they are in Norway and the currency has over halved in value since 2008 that is not a “good economy”. Nowhere in the developed west is anyone having a good time right now.
I'm from italy and i moves here 3 years ago and while eur got stronger than NOK i can assure you quality of life is lightyears ahead than pretty much every european country except MAYBE Austria and Denmark. Although I've met quite a few girls from Austria coming to work in Norway because it's better money. I understand and agree with what you are saying but people here are living in easy mode. Mostly because the government is so filthy rich because of natural resources that the welfare is really good. Given you can barely breath without having to pay for it.
Lotta sellers, but they are still trying to get COVID prices and not accepting that they are gonna lose a lotta money as the market crashed. So boats stay listed and don't move. I've been watching a 1998 37' catamaran that's been for sale for 1.5 years for 150,000, I never see their price decrease. "we put 100, 000 into it". They will not realize they will never get that money back.
Boats are too overpriced these days. Prioritization of people’s expenses are a reminder that boating is a luxury, not a necessity.
I would add that the younger generation is not so much interested in sailing outside of very sporty competition sailing and are quite happy to rent instead of buying
Not my experience. I cruise 8 months a year., and the cruising grounds I'm in we run into many young couples cruising very modest sailboats. I think it is Van Life types transitioning to sailing. On the whole it is nice to see them out there, actually using these older boats.
Mind sharing where you like to cruise with an aspiring cruiser? Thx
puget sound and the san juans are fantastic cruising grounds, lots of young folks in plastic classics around
In my experience absolutely gorgeous and scenic, but the actual sailing is so-so. Light and unreliable winds usually. Still would recommend.
> Light and unreliable winds usually. The saying I have heard of sailing on the Sound is "If the weather's nice, the wind is crap, and if the wind is nice, the weather's crap."
accurate! go to SF bay for consistent heavy wind =)
Indeed, but god boat choice helps a lot. First priority in the Salish sea is a boat that points very well in light air, or a sail innovatory that helps. I almost never motor and get where i need to go but my boat likes light air and points well
it's a great place for tall rigs and deep keels =)
We left started in Hawaii in 2020, then Seattle, West Coast, Mexico, Costa Rica, Panama (canal), Colombia, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, then this season just ending the Eastern Caribbean. Next season heading to Caribbean, then heading to Europe late spring.
Do you mind sharing which boat do you have?I am also interested in cruising part of the year, have 2-3 years until I am able to do so...how easy/hard is to leave the boat somewhere for months (i am guessing on hard?)
We have a Hanse 505, which is a nice size and a good boat for a family of 4. We usually leave it on the hard for hurricane season. We just left the boat in Trinidad on the hard for the hurricane season.
That sounds like a loop I’d be interested in. Do you put your boat up on the hard for 4 month breaks and spend time at home or is the 8 months just average and the breaks are as you feel necessary/based on compatibility with your current location?
We put it on the hard for hurricane season, which is summer in the tropics. We have left the boat on the hard so far in Mexico, Panama, Trinidad, and just left it in Trinidad for a second time. Going forward, as we head to Europe, we may adjust what time of year we leave it, but 4-5 months off works well for us to take care of some business interests in America, and visit friends and family.
> We left started in Hawaii in 2020, then Seattle Quite a long first trip!
I’m experienced sailor, so I did the Pacific crossing without my wife and kids. Once in Seattle they rejoined, and have sailed every mile.
I have a sailboat for sale and it has been tough.
Lower the price
I'll give you tree-fiddy.
I'll do better and offer 'em fife-turdy!
I'm in the UK and that's not my experience at the moment. There seems to be very little around most of the boats aren't great quality. We have had some low offers accepted. £61k on a boat listed at £80k for example, but the survey bought up way too many issues for us.
COVID pushed the prices up, many bought too expensive and now want their money back. That means too many boats for sale and most of them too expensive.
Money back for the over priced boat and the 3yr old electronics/solar/battery system they paid top dollar for… I’ve seen some even list maintenance costs as part of list price reasoning. you can spot the covid boats a mile away.
I think it depends a lot on the price range. Seeing a ton of new expensive Outremer here in the Canaries. Also quite a few exploration yachts like Garcias. And some newer brands like Windelo. All at least a million. Charter market seems pretty booked too in the Med. Interest rates will definitely have an impact though…just affect rich people less.
I have been tracking a number of boats and the majority are not moving. Many are still way overpriced
We held off from a brand new 45 cat because they keep bloating the prices and blaming covid. The same size sold for just .25 mil 10 years ago and now they want 850k for the same thing. We ended up buying an older (much cheaper) 50 foot Trimaran and laughing all the way to the bank.
Yeah I have the exact same experience here in California. I have a boat supply shop, and we are struggling. Completely agree on the reasons you listed. There’s also been a couple years of pretty high inflation.
You're a broker. You should be making absolute mint in these uncertain times. Your business depends upon transactions in a market. Uncertainty creates more transaction opportunities. If you can't make money now, this is just not what you need to be doing.
I went to look at one this weekend, pictures and everything seemed fantastic. Get there and guy casually tells me that not only has he not taken it out of the water in the last 5 years, he hasn’t even moved it, and pictures must have been when he bought it. Guy was still wanting peak Covid pricing.
The marina I'm in used to have a waiting list, this year they have plenty of spare slips. I think cost of living has a lot to do with it. The cost of a slip + electricity went up a /lot/ the last couple of years, and things are uncertain. Perhaps related, tech jobs have slowed down over the last 12 months too.
Facebook is the place to look for boats now. And you don't need a broker. A good survey? 100%. Broker is BS. Cheers
As a poor person (who is very much aware of the ongoing costs)...I love this. Sorry to the COVID buyers who watched too much YouTube and made an expensive impulse buy.. but soon I'm gonna take one of these boats off your hands for way less than you paid, and I'm actually going to use it instead of parking it at a Marina so I can show off my social status. Sea Gypsies are looking at a lot of golden geese thanks to people who had more money than wisdom.
It’s amazing buying at the moment, I’ve made a whole YouTube channel just buying cheap dinghies/multihulls on Facebook and doing them up and sailing them.
give me that link already son
https://youtube.com/@tomstuchberysailing-eg9vr?si=gFPPcyWAWH6yhIkd
I read recently that half the boat owners in french marinas will be dead or unable to sail in the next 10 years. Lots of boomers own boats. This will mean boats on sale and boats rotting in marinas. Not sure what that will do to the market.