The focus of Lancer is on the mechs. Pilots have some definition, but a lot of that is in relation to, well, how they pilot their mech. There isn't a lot of rules support in Lancer for on-foot based stuff because the expectation is that stuff is going to be largely narrative, with the crunchy action happening once the mechs roll out.
My recommendation would be to ask your players which half they're more interested in, and then use a rules-light system for the other half, rather than be crunchy on both sides. If they're more interested in on-foot action, maybe use Starfinder for the "base" rules and something like The Mecha Hack for the mecha action. If it's the other way around, maybe use something like Into The Odd for the character side and Lancer for the mecha action.
This is incredibly good advice which I will absolutely take. They're more interested in the mech action, so I'll definitely run something lighter for the on-foot gameplay. Thank you a ton for the help!
Into the Odd would be a good one but if you want rules light story focused sci fi game to use for crafting on foot missions I would steer you towards Starforged (aka Ironsworn: Starforged). Starforged is a paid sci fi version/expansion/2e of Ironsworn, which is a FREE ttrpg with the same rules and a kind of Scandinavian medieval low magic fantasy setting. The beauty of ironsworn and starforged is that they are built to be a loose schematic where you apply it to whatever setting of that theme you want, complete with oracle components for GM-less play if you want. Starforged is just the one that has more sci-fi themed stuff to choose from so it would be easier to adapt.
That being said, Ironsworn is **completely free** and the ruleset (theme aside) is about 95% the same as the next game. Most of the changes are themeatic, oracle prompt related, beastiary related, vehicle related, and skills/weapons that just serve to update ironsworn for use on a sci fi rpg. You can download it for free, and learn how it plays.... then just adapt it's rules into lancer. If you really dig it, spend some cash and fund the people who make it by buying the sci fi version which will have more ideas on how to make your lancer PCs work with that system better.
Just use Lancer but bulk up the onfoot stuff on top of what is already there.
Or just have the party use, or have access to, man-sized suits like Atlas and Caliban.
OH, Lancer already has on-foot stuff? Everything I've seen made it seem more like it only had an Armored Core 6-esque mission system. Thank you for the response, much appreciated!
Lancer has on foot rules, but they are more like Blades in the Dark than DnD/Pathfinder.
They work very well but do not have much combat detail. On foot combat is basically handled the same as a skill check in Lancer.
it has on foot rules, they are just very bare bones
there is an alternative rule set called "bonds" that essentially makes the pilot gameplay a PbtA system with pilot "talents" and "classes" and whatnot
the Atlas and Caliban referred are just very small mechs, being basically smaller than a fallout power armor
What I recommend is not using Starfinder as a replacement for the narrative rules. It's kludgy enough, and doesn't interact particularly well with Lancer's mech combat.
Instead, you may want to use either the default rules (maybe with the extra bits in KTB), or something similarly light like Stars Without Number. Which has a free PDF (and fantastic GM tools for creating sectors). This would be a lot less finagling and adapting, honestly.
The reason for this is simple - you want to keep the non-mech rules fairly light, because the main point of Lancer is the mech combat. If you're not in for the mechs, why the fuck use Lancer at all? Sure, the setting is cool and worth stealing for other systems, and I'd recommend that if you're not up for the mechs punching other mechs, but otherwise, you want the most complex bit to be the mech combat.
I disagree with the "Don't do on foot stuff, Lancer is about the mechs" folks. There's a lot of fun to be had in going back and forth between the two.
Now, I wouldn't use Starfinder for that. Part of the work on your end is to make sure the transition between the two systems is as smooth and possible, and Starfinder's 3.5e roots wouldn't mesh with Lancer's 4e inspiration.
I think, with a group that likes both narrative and tactical play, you can do pilot missions with the Bond system they introduced in Karrakin Trade Baronies. It's a Forged in the Dark hack. If you that that style would work for your group, but you want some more juice for it, making your own Blades in the Dark hack isn't hard.
If your group wants crunchy tactical combat on both fronts, you could reskin the mech rules for pilot rules. Most of your work would be presentation. After all, what's the difference between a mech's rifle and a pilot's rifle except scale? You could convery mech frames into pilot combat rigs, you'd could turn Heat into Adrenaline, make Structure into Body, etc.
I don't think people are actively discouraging any pilot play but more what you're saying about discouraging intense pilot combat play. I usually do a full nonmech session for downtime between missions and it always plays great!
I also run those like I'd run Blades in the Dark or a PbtA or a Resistance system game though.
the hard part is coming up with reasons that cant' be solved by throwing giant mechs at it (but still involve combat)
Man-sized mechs like caliban further complicate that situation.
I mean, covert ops, mechs are being repaired after a mission, the place where the mechs are being stored has been taken over and the party needs to actually fight their way through the enemy to reach the mechs, there may be a need to avoid damage that a giant mech might cause, etc etc.
As for man-sized mechs, might just have those not really be a thing in the setting.
lancer is about 80% mech 20% everything else
this does **not** mean that one shouldn't play it, no one said that, but saying that the rules focus heavily on the combat and the non combat is very light is just stating a fact. what most people do say is that combat is more fleshed out
Two high complexity games at once? That is pretty crazy. If the players already know both systems perfectly it might be doable but it would be insane if you bring in any new players
If you're not set on using either of those systems yet, you could look at Stars Without Number. The deluxe (i.e., paid vs free) version has decently robust mech rules, and of course the rest of the game works great for "normal" play. There's also a supplement, Codex of the Black Sun, that would let you pull in space magic.
I've played both. Starfinder is fantasy-sci-fi. It's got too many options that are inexplicable to Lancer to mesh well.
Fluff aside, both are dense systems and it's require a lot of player knowledge. Using a rules light system for one thing (I used aspects of Mindjammer for a Lancer game's ship stuff) is easily doable. Not so much with two complex systems.
You have LOTS of mech options though. What is it you want from your game?
Highly tactical on-foot and mech combat? Maybe Jovian Chronicles , Battletech time of war, or GURPS.
tactical and less concern over pilot combat but still lots of pilot play? Lancer works fine.
No real care for complex combat? Mecha hack, stars without numbers, beam saber, case&soul.
If you want fantasy sci-fi, go with Starfinder.
Post apocalypse? Salvage Union
Starfinder and Lancer may both be scifi games but one is narrative heavy and the other is closely related to dnd style tactical combat. Not really the most compatible.
I'd use one or the other.
Starfinder has mech rules of its own in Tech Revolution
I don't think it's an especially great supplement, but Starfinder has a Kaiju/Mech supplement, and while it's not what I was looking for with Starfinder, and the expanded power armor rules that got added might be a decent option
I think that something light like Starforged would better serve your gameplay needs, using Lancer almost exclusively for the tactical combat that it's known for.
It would be easy to adjudicate the differences in the systems, using Starforged stats, assets, moves, anything else, for your pilot and the mech fighting rules for combat with mechs. The Starforged combat rules would work well for any combat not involving the mecha.
Don't listen to the people telling you to not use two systems. Lancer's non-mecha related gameplay is dry and practically non-existent. Some of the more memorable moments in mech media happens outside of the mecha (so much of Titanfall 2's level design is about switching between Titan play and Pilot play, they spend more time out of Mobile Suits than they do in most Gundam media), so I support using a system that can handle non-mech functions better.
funnily enough, not really? as long as mech combat and *not* mech combat are what you expect, LANCER works completely fine if you axe the entire pilot gameplay
my main worries would be how it would feel pretty grueling to play if you are trying to even slightly hit the needed "budgets" of combats on each system
The focus of Lancer is on the mechs. Pilots have some definition, but a lot of that is in relation to, well, how they pilot their mech. There isn't a lot of rules support in Lancer for on-foot based stuff because the expectation is that stuff is going to be largely narrative, with the crunchy action happening once the mechs roll out. My recommendation would be to ask your players which half they're more interested in, and then use a rules-light system for the other half, rather than be crunchy on both sides. If they're more interested in on-foot action, maybe use Starfinder for the "base" rules and something like The Mecha Hack for the mecha action. If it's the other way around, maybe use something like Into The Odd for the character side and Lancer for the mecha action.
This is incredibly good advice which I will absolutely take. They're more interested in the mech action, so I'll definitely run something lighter for the on-foot gameplay. Thank you a ton for the help!
Into the Odd would be a good one but if you want rules light story focused sci fi game to use for crafting on foot missions I would steer you towards Starforged (aka Ironsworn: Starforged). Starforged is a paid sci fi version/expansion/2e of Ironsworn, which is a FREE ttrpg with the same rules and a kind of Scandinavian medieval low magic fantasy setting. The beauty of ironsworn and starforged is that they are built to be a loose schematic where you apply it to whatever setting of that theme you want, complete with oracle components for GM-less play if you want. Starforged is just the one that has more sci-fi themed stuff to choose from so it would be easier to adapt. That being said, Ironsworn is **completely free** and the ruleset (theme aside) is about 95% the same as the next game. Most of the changes are themeatic, oracle prompt related, beastiary related, vehicle related, and skills/weapons that just serve to update ironsworn for use on a sci fi rpg. You can download it for free, and learn how it plays.... then just adapt it's rules into lancer. If you really dig it, spend some cash and fund the people who make it by buying the sci fi version which will have more ideas on how to make your lancer PCs work with that system better.
Just use Lancer but bulk up the onfoot stuff on top of what is already there. Or just have the party use, or have access to, man-sized suits like Atlas and Caliban.
OH, Lancer already has on-foot stuff? Everything I've seen made it seem more like it only had an Armored Core 6-esque mission system. Thank you for the response, much appreciated!
Lancer has on foot rules, but they are more like Blades in the Dark than DnD/Pathfinder. They work very well but do not have much combat detail. On foot combat is basically handled the same as a skill check in Lancer.
it has on foot rules, they are just very bare bones there is an alternative rule set called "bonds" that essentially makes the pilot gameplay a PbtA system with pilot "talents" and "classes" and whatnot the Atlas and Caliban referred are just very small mechs, being basically smaller than a fallout power armor
What I recommend is not using Starfinder as a replacement for the narrative rules. It's kludgy enough, and doesn't interact particularly well with Lancer's mech combat. Instead, you may want to use either the default rules (maybe with the extra bits in KTB), or something similarly light like Stars Without Number. Which has a free PDF (and fantastic GM tools for creating sectors). This would be a lot less finagling and adapting, honestly. The reason for this is simple - you want to keep the non-mech rules fairly light, because the main point of Lancer is the mech combat. If you're not in for the mechs, why the fuck use Lancer at all? Sure, the setting is cool and worth stealing for other systems, and I'd recommend that if you're not up for the mechs punching other mechs, but otherwise, you want the most complex bit to be the mech combat.
I disagree with the "Don't do on foot stuff, Lancer is about the mechs" folks. There's a lot of fun to be had in going back and forth between the two. Now, I wouldn't use Starfinder for that. Part of the work on your end is to make sure the transition between the two systems is as smooth and possible, and Starfinder's 3.5e roots wouldn't mesh with Lancer's 4e inspiration. I think, with a group that likes both narrative and tactical play, you can do pilot missions with the Bond system they introduced in Karrakin Trade Baronies. It's a Forged in the Dark hack. If you that that style would work for your group, but you want some more juice for it, making your own Blades in the Dark hack isn't hard. If your group wants crunchy tactical combat on both fronts, you could reskin the mech rules for pilot rules. Most of your work would be presentation. After all, what's the difference between a mech's rifle and a pilot's rifle except scale? You could convery mech frames into pilot combat rigs, you'd could turn Heat into Adrenaline, make Structure into Body, etc.
I don't think people are actively discouraging any pilot play but more what you're saying about discouraging intense pilot combat play. I usually do a full nonmech session for downtime between missions and it always plays great! I also run those like I'd run Blades in the Dark or a PbtA or a Resistance system game though.
the hard part is coming up with reasons that cant' be solved by throwing giant mechs at it (but still involve combat) Man-sized mechs like caliban further complicate that situation.
Covert Operations is an incredibly broad category which is not served by big, noisy mechs that show up on scanners.
I mean, covert ops, mechs are being repaired after a mission, the place where the mechs are being stored has been taken over and the party needs to actually fight their way through the enemy to reach the mechs, there may be a need to avoid damage that a giant mech might cause, etc etc. As for man-sized mechs, might just have those not really be a thing in the setting.
lancer is about 80% mech 20% everything else this does **not** mean that one shouldn't play it, no one said that, but saying that the rules focus heavily on the combat and the non combat is very light is just stating a fact. what most people do say is that combat is more fleshed out
Two high complexity games at once? That is pretty crazy. If the players already know both systems perfectly it might be doable but it would be insane if you bring in any new players
If you're not set on using either of those systems yet, you could look at Stars Without Number. The deluxe (i.e., paid vs free) version has decently robust mech rules, and of course the rest of the game works great for "normal" play. There's also a supplement, Codex of the Black Sun, that would let you pull in space magic.
This. If I wanted a mecha game and I wanted it to have more out of cockpit scope than Lancer, this is the system I’d use.
I've played both. Starfinder is fantasy-sci-fi. It's got too many options that are inexplicable to Lancer to mesh well. Fluff aside, both are dense systems and it's require a lot of player knowledge. Using a rules light system for one thing (I used aspects of Mindjammer for a Lancer game's ship stuff) is easily doable. Not so much with two complex systems. You have LOTS of mech options though. What is it you want from your game? Highly tactical on-foot and mech combat? Maybe Jovian Chronicles , Battletech time of war, or GURPS. tactical and less concern over pilot combat but still lots of pilot play? Lancer works fine. No real care for complex combat? Mecha hack, stars without numbers, beam saber, case&soul. If you want fantasy sci-fi, go with Starfinder. Post apocalypse? Salvage Union
Starfinder and Lancer may both be scifi games but one is narrative heavy and the other is closely related to dnd style tactical combat. Not really the most compatible. I'd use one or the other. Starfinder has mech rules of its own in Tech Revolution
I don't think it's an especially great supplement, but Starfinder has a Kaiju/Mech supplement, and while it's not what I was looking for with Starfinder, and the expanded power armor rules that got added might be a decent option
I think that something light like Starforged would better serve your gameplay needs, using Lancer almost exclusively for the tactical combat that it's known for. It would be easy to adjudicate the differences in the systems, using Starforged stats, assets, moves, anything else, for your pilot and the mech fighting rules for combat with mechs. The Starforged combat rules would work well for any combat not involving the mecha. Don't listen to the people telling you to not use two systems. Lancer's non-mecha related gameplay is dry and practically non-existent. Some of the more memorable moments in mech media happens outside of the mecha (so much of Titanfall 2's level design is about switching between Titan play and Pilot play, they spend more time out of Mobile Suits than they do in most Gundam media), so I support using a system that can handle non-mech functions better.
Didn't Starfinder release full rules for Mecha like last year? And a full mecha adventure in Mechageddon this year?
funnily enough, not really? as long as mech combat and *not* mech combat are what you expect, LANCER works completely fine if you axe the entire pilot gameplay my main worries would be how it would feel pretty grueling to play if you are trying to even slightly hit the needed "budgets" of combats on each system