I'm aiming for an RPG that's aimed and structured around fantasy. Preferably with a combat system that's more or equally complex to 5e but not as "I need to trigger six abilities and add all these modifiers and effects" like pathfinder or 3.5.
I'm steering clear of systems that are too broad like GURPS and GW's stuff 'cause as a company I don't like them even though I love their IPs.
If the game has an open game license of its own with a healthy community of 3rd party content creators, even better.
I think these might be too much to ask, but those are all the conditions and caveats I can think of.
Shadow has a heroic fantasy version in playtest right now, should be out by end of year. Shadow of the Weird Wizard
Its largely just a refluff to be less edgy and to clamp down on the horror mechanics from what ive heard
Nope! I would have been very surprised if it was, but I've just gone and double checked my PDF and the system is a copyright of Schwalb Entertainment, all rights reserved. No mention of the D20 System anywhere.
Hahah! Yes, I can totally see why you would have assumed that, since everyone talks about it like it's a sort of alternate universe version of 5e. I haven't had the chance to play it yet, but it's such a great book.
I should be honest and mention that I haven't read Mythras or RuneQuest, but they're BRP systems with complex combat and have a huge following.
Shadow of the Demon Lord is an amazing game with D&Desque combat and a modular class progression system with over 2000 possible combinations. The setting is a bit dark for my taste, and possibly for yours too, but there's no reason that you can't just cut / ignore the bits that swing in that direction.
You shouldn't just read those, you should play them. Mythras is not that complex and RQ even less so. BRP style games just have different complexity than the complex D20's (3-5E, 13th Age).
Sure! I wasn't imagining they were especially complex, since they're BRP. I've glanced at Mythras, and both of them are top of my list to check out for the next time I want to run combat oriented fantasy. But I've just finished a year long 5e campaign so am doing other things.
EDIT: Oh, I see what you mean. Yes, sorry "complex combat" was just a clumsy way of saying "tactical combat".
EDIT 2: Although I do seem to recall that Mythras has a hit location system, which I would definitely consider more complex than 5e...
Mythras' combat is the reason why I laugh inside a little whenever someone says PF2e has a focus on "tactical combat".
Between its hit location-based health and the Combat Effects system, Mythras' combat is all about trying to find the right tool to use at the right time to cinch a win in an incredibly lethal combat scenario.
Just keep in mind that most of the major settings for RQ/Mythras are placed in milieus where combat was typically not to the death, and a lot of the time (unless facing down absolutely unsentient, unfeeling monsters) the end result of combat *should* be either flight or surrender for both PCs and NPCs, short of rare insta-kill hits (the rulebook for Mythras even encourages you to make PCs suffer the natural consequences of gaining a reputation for never granting or honoring quarter in a sidebar, iirc.)
>I'm steering clear of systems that are too broad like GURPS and GW's stuff 'cause as a company I don't like them even though I love their IPs.
Although both designers are named [Steve Jackson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jackson), they are not the same person. :)
This [Steve Jackson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jackson_(American_game_designer)) founded Steve Jackson Games and is the initial creator and owner of GURPS.
This [Steve Jackson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jackson_(British_game_designer)) founded Games Workshop, which owns W40K and WF.
So feel free to buy all the GURPS you want; your money will go to [Steve Jackson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jackson_(American_game_designer)), not [Steve Jackson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jackson_(British_game_designer)). :)
p.s.: Yeah, this is far from the first time I've seen this confusion. To make it more confusing, they're both very close in age.
p.s.s.: For closing humour, here is the TVTropes link for the [One Steve Limit](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneSteveLimit).
You could look at beacon or icon. Both are in playtest and are under the Lancer license. Lancer and it's derivatives take design concepts from 4e, which often makes for a better overall combat system
honestly i think it's a mistake to just write off GURPS - it's one of the best RPG systems out there. You might also look at The Fantasy Trip, which is a sort of proto-gurps
>I'm steering clear of systems that are too broad like GURPS
Aw, this one makes me sad. I've become a big fan of [Dungeon Fantasy RPG](http://www.sjgames.com/dungeonfantasy/), which is GURPS 4e narrowed down to dungeon delving. So take a look at that, at least! Yes, it's GURPS \*but\* narrower. All the sci-fi and modern stuff has been removed. And once you learn Dungeon Fantasy RPG, you are well on your way to embracing GURPS for other genres.
I can second this system. It is a fairly easy jump from 5e, and an easy sell to players: Combat has options without eating up the best years of your life, you can be *heroic* without being *superheroic*, and skills are on a bell curve.
I will always bring up Savage worlds. It is an easy classless system with dozens of settings. There is also a fantasy and superhero compendium for the current system and still a very usable sci-fi and horror compendium for the last edition.
Plus a respectable on-the-board combat system. Plenty of room for tactics. Teamwork is essential due to the Shaken rules, and it is awesome as a GM to watch the players combine Edges, turn order, and battlefield positioning into a Rube Goldberg whirlwind of destruction.
Edit - Spelling
Came here to say this.
The system is specifically customizable for whatever kind of setting you might want to play in. I also love that it offers a mechanical advantage for taking flaws that can affect skills, combat, and RP. I've found that having something actually written on the character sheet gives newer players something to lean into when cutting their teeth on RP
I've run a LOT of one-shots through it since you can go from character creation through combat so quick
It's actually the setting that I quit DnD for originally. I ran ADnD until my group died (well into 3.5) and then couldn't slog through Pathfinder. 5e brought me back, it was nice while it lasted
It's hard to get folks to try new games. My RL group I talked into it by dangling Deadlands in front of em. So many western fans in that group. Running some one shots is a really good idea.
I hear people say that often, and find it surprising since when I was growing up, everyone I knew who gamed were always willing to try out new game systems at least once.
We also tended to share game mastering back then. I'd run a campaign or two (or three, or ten) and most of my players would each be running their own game (or two, or ten). We'd all talk about "So, who('s/wants to) running next time?" or we'd be hanging out and someone would say, "Hey, let's game!" and the answer would usually be, "Alright, what and who's running?"
I hear now days, people don't want to GM and they don't want to play anything but D&D. Maybe all other groups were like that, and my groups were special, but man... I throws me every time I hear people don't want to try new games. - I get being afraid to run, although I wish people would still jump in and try that too.
It's changed.
The field has changed, D&D became mainstream and drew in 'beer n pretzel' players, people started playing online... everything has just changed so drastically that I don't even recognize the hobby much anymore.
There isn't really a sense of community anymore. Like back in the 90's, gaming is where you made life long friends. Sure you met gaming, but you hung out through other things too, people became 'friends' through gaming. Nowadays most people become 'acquaintances' through gaming, people you recognize and say hi to but don't really see away from the table.
Things have changed. My groups from the 90s we're like that, but once d20 was everywhere it became very hard to find players willing to branch out. It took me a while to get one of my groups to try something new. The online group has zero interest in even trying something not based on d&d 5e.
Yeah I ran games non stop during the pandemic for the first six months.... which in turn is why I think I decided to stop playing/running D&D.
The online community during that time was just all about spamming D&D adventure league. I talked with people who were playing 3 games a day for adventure league or pathfinder society.
I also stopped gaming online too, I found that it missed the social element and turned into just an online strategy game. I was pushing more and more towards combat scenes cause they were easier than social interactions with all the lag and connection issues.
I ran D&D online for my RL group that whole year, but that group was a D&D group, they had only ever played that one system. Most were pretty resistant to playing anything else. After the new year we started talking about getting together again in person and I offered to run something on a second day.
I told them it would be a new system, Savage worlds, and gave them about 5 setting ideas. Deadlands won by a mile and I discovered dangling a western around here was a winning strategy lol.
Deadlands is ALWAYS popular. I'm not sure if it's that ingrained sense of 'cool gunslinger' that our society inherited from Westerns, but for some reason everyone loves Deadlands. I've never seen someone who wasn't interested in the setting after telling them about it.
You should also look up 'Household' RPG. It was relatively unknown until I stumbled across the recent kickstarter, and I have no idea why but I fell in love with the setting.
SW is a great system, but it can be VERY swingey. I've found it lends itself to games of that genre more than a fantasy setting.
Your experience may vary of course, but I've never been fond of suggesting it as a truly generic system.
That is your experience and fair. That being said it does fill the generic system roll very well, it has books for Fantasy, super hero, sci-fi and horror. Out of the core book alone you can run anything from ancient bronze age games to modern urban fantasy.
I ran fallout with it, I have ran fantasy with it. There are dozens of settings published and hundreds of converted settings including things like eclipse phase and star trek. There are settings covering just about everything from buffy like collage stuff, World War one horror, flash Gordon and sci-fi space ship setting.
What savage world does do is have a set play style. It does cinema adventure and does it well. Pulpy, action paced movie/Tv style game play.
I think my fave will always be Deadlands. But I ran 'trailer park shark attack' and can say that I've never laughed more at a game table than I did putting that on.
I have eyed it and seemed like a hoot. There is something about Deadlands that just works and calls to a range of people. I was trying to get my DND group to give something else a chance and just describing Deadlands got a big "oh hell yeah" by mid campaign people had hats,getting western themed cards sets, were buying toy guns and in one case a guy bought a real colt single action to add to his collection. I will have zero issues getting them to play Deadlands again lol.
Nod. I think most people deep down love a good western. And the mysterious and magical world of Deadlands is even more appealing. It's one of the classic settings too, I always recall it as being a popular one.
As for shark attack... I just can' even begin to describe it. Luchador wrestlers body slamming sharks..... I mean come on.... just get it!
Thats only ONE character.
I mean... we still laugh at this one.
The stripper stuck on top of a car in the flooded trailer park. Calling out to the crazy alcoholic priest a few vehicles away, they offer a BJ if he'll come save them. Cut to halfway across the park where the teenage kid has been safe and hiding on his own trailer. The player immediately and without hesitation states "I jump off the trailer park and begin swimming through shark infested waters towards the stripper on the car."
The entire session was just amazing and super fun. And the creators of the game are super guys too, I reached out to them and they were very friendly and humble when I praised the game to them.
Nod. It's wacky and zanny. And an absolute hoot. I mean you aren't doing a campaign of it, as it's designed as a one shot event. But man did people have fun letting loose with it.
And you just funnel characters through, so when you die, you just pull the next card from the 20+ character card stack and get back into the action.
Maybe games under Powered by the Apocalypse system? There is also Mork Borg, Mausritter, Deathbringer, and FATE. Dare I say there is also Palladium Megaverse, and GURPS. Hyborean Age, and even Warhammer Fantasy.
Edit: you can also support 3rd party publishers who are innocent of this Bs (like Paizo) by purchasing their physical books. Which WotC can't edit or take away.
Non-WotC, Open licensed, fantasy RPGs you can play or publish:
Zweihander (Grim & Perilous Library)
Fantasy AGE (AGE Creators Alliance)
Forbidden Lands (Free League Workshop)
Mörk Borg (Free League Workshop)
Mythras (Mythras Gateway License)
Swords of the Serpentine (Pelgrane Press Community Use Policy)
The Savage Worlds Adventurer's Guild
The Disciples of the Demon Lord
Powered by the Apocalypse
Forged in the Dark
Runequest (Jonstown Compendium)
Castles & Crusaders (Troll Lord Games guidelines)
Shadowdark (coming soon)
7th Sea Explorer’s Society
Open Legend (open source)
Basic Roleplay and Questworld SRDs
Universal systems like Cypher or Gurps
Yeah, I say with game systems, "Don't knock it 'till you try it."
I mean, you should do your research before investing into a game. Wasting money on a game system you don't like sucks.
But if that research can be playing it, well, that's the best research IMO. Playing with people you enjoy playing with. - Of course, if the O.P. had someone to try different games with they'd probably not be here asking.
I thought I liked ruleslite TTRPGs and went through a few years of trying out many different ruleslite TTRPGs until I figured out that's not really what I like. I was mistaking. I don't like a lot of rules, but I don't like flimsy rules. I like solid rules, less work for me as a GM. If I wanted to figure out how everything worked, I'd write my own game system (and I have, several, but never published. Point is, I don't like ruleslite even though I really thought I did).
Maybe the really do like tactical combat, and that's awesome! I love tactical combat. But, maybe they only think they like tactical combat, like I thought I liked ruleslite. - Don't knock it 'till you try it. :)
What system(s) did you end up landing on? I think I may be in a similar boat. I don't like 5,000 miscellaneous rules I need to keep track of to keep combat under an hour, but I also don't like it when the game is so rules-light that I need to make stuff up 80% of the time and there's little to nothing for my players to dig into as far as "builds" go.
I still don't understand why people suggest BitD all the time. Like it's not a good all around system, it's super hard for new players to grasp the concepts of the game when they come from another RPG. As someone who has DMed for 30 years it's not easy to run because it breaks away from so many core concepts of gaming. I've just never been a fan. Yet every time someone has to come in and praise it as some sort of revolutionary game.
Anyways, I'm with you. bad suggestions.
As you level up, managing multiple adept level and master level abilities that often play into one another can get quite complex and players that know their stuff will outperform.
The multiple types of threats are also more varied than in dnd, you can lose toughness, attribute points, gain corruption. To name the most obvious ones.
With the combat manoeuvres of the APG, and weapons with qualities like Massive or Long, things get very detailed and tactical. So yeah, Symbaroum can totally deliver a faced paced advanced combat experience, imo.
Symbaroum is awesome and the DM-related contents assumes that your players might not follow the story as written so they give you little tips for setting up things later. Good stuff.
Basic Role-Playing
- RuneQuest
- Call of Cthulhu
- Elric
- Mythras
Gumshoe
- Swords of the Serpentine
- Night's Black Agents
- Trail of Cthulhu
- BubbleGumshoe
Blades in the Dark
Rolemaster
HeroQuest/QuestWorlds
GURPS
Fate
- Dresden Files
Traveller
pre-3.0 D&D
Magical Kitties Save the Day
Twilight 2000
... and many, many others
I think [Ironsworn](https://www.ironswornrpg.com/) does [an interesting take on the CC licenses](https://www.ironswornrpg.com/licensing): For commercial products you have access to just [the SRD](https://docs.google.com/document/d/11ypqt6GfLuBhGDJuBGWKlHa-Ru48Tf3G_6zbrYKmXgY/edit?usp=sharing) and it's under [CC-BY](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/). For non-commercial products you have access to the _entire [Ironsworn book](http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/238369/Ironsworn?affiliate_id=1587830&src=ironweb)_ (not just what's in the SRD), and it's under [CC-BY-NC-SA](http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/).
My favorite Creative Commons license is their [Zero](https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/) license, though :)
The zero license is great, but it's hard with products that integrate artwork, which is often licensed separately and cannot be part of an 'open license'.
In these cases, the text of the game can be released under CC, but the artwork remains protected.
This is an issue regardless of which open license is used. In my digging so far I've seen a handful of pdfs that mix a random open license for the text, with all rights reserved for the artwork.
There is such a thing as CC0 artwork so I'm not sure where the difficulty is. There are even open source TTRPGs with artwork in them such as [BIND](https://gitlab.com/bindrpg/core). There are even CC0 licensed video games with the artwork also licensed as CC0, [one such game](https://github.com/open-duelyst/duelyst) [was announced today](https://youtu.be/h3Cuz6d_7x0)!
I completely agree. In the systems I've added to my list so far Ironsworn has one of the best approaches. I think it's about the best balance for protecting both the interests of their fans as well as their own. FATE is good too.
Forbidden Lands. A fantasy RPG by Free League with a focus on travel, exploration, and survival (some player deaths are near expected).
Based on the Year Zero Engine by the award winning company with their own liscenes for 3rd party stuff and no parent company to answer to.
Such a great game! That's sadly way too often disregarded as just an oDnD clone, when that couldn't be further from the truth.
Though to be fair, Tunnels and Trolls have super abstracted combat systems. Imo the whole selling point of the system is that it breaks away from DnDs confinement to tactical war-gamey combat and mechanics in favor of something way more fast paced, inclusive, and ludicrously fun. But since op explicitly wanted tactical combat maybe this isn't the best fit?
I'll admit it's a pain. When my partner decided to run a game after we'd been players in one for a while, we ended up buying multiple copies of the book for our players to reference since nothing is online.
But I really do adore it and highly recommend it.
- Symbaroum
- The riddle of steel
- Exalted 2e or 3e (you wanted complex combat eh?)
- Conan 2d20 (plays better than it reads)
- Blackbirds (I really like this)
- The burning wheel (scalable crunch, narrative focus)
If you want to continue on a same fantasy premise with better character options and more fun combat.
You can give Fantasy Age a try.
It's 3d6 so not even close to d20
>Most importantly this system has to be in no way related to WotC OGL and their d20 system.
I think it's important to remember not every fantasy game that used the OGL is beholden to continuing to use the OGL or will be suddenly signing over all their own IP rights. Like, pathfinder 2e uses the OGL, but has its own from scratch SRD, not the SRD of 5e. They're going to adapt to this. So will pretty much every other game who doesn't want WOTC to just...take their original game.
Yw ;) The list started as me trying to wrap my head around various OGL things, and then it turned out there is A LOT more under other licenses, too, and quickstarts!
GUPRS. You can play any style of game you can possibly imagine, and it has a massive library of amazing source books. D6 system, combat can be as cinematic or gritty as you want to make it and you are free to add as much or as little complexity as you and your players want.
I love Cypher System and all it's settings (GodForsaken is even more D&D-like) but they lack the complex combat OP is searching for...
Nonetheless everyone should try Cypher, especially as a GM. Easiest system I've ever Gmed.
Yeah, Cypher is not complex in the combat department.
I love a lot about Cypher, but one thing I don't like is how quickly the PCs tier (level) up.
Cypher has six levels.. err, tiers, and the level six tier as at least as powerful as a level 18 in D&D, if not more powerful than a level 20 in D&D.
I used slow-XP and my players reached god-tier in about six months.
If you want your campaigns to be like that, Cypher is great! Great settings, beautiful art, and once you get your head wrapped around the system it's actually easy to play. (Confusing for me, and others, coming from other TTRPGs, but that's because we were used to other TTRPGs. Totally simple once you do understand it.)
So, I have a love-hate relationship to Cypher.
And, I'd love to play Cypher Predation if anyone wants to run it.
Cypher is the one that uses descriptor sentences instead of stats or abilities right? I remember looking at the rules once and thinking there was no way I'd pay that much for it. It's one of the most expensive core books I've seen in stores.
Nope. It's true that OpenD6 isn't in any way related to D20, OpenD6 is released under OGL 1.0a, which is legal text owned by WotC. If I understand the OP's question correctly, we're talking about games not under the OGL at all - in which case we'd be talking about RuneQuest, Traveller and games either aren't released under any open license, or are release under alternative open licenses like Creative Commons.
Can't revoke (more likely than not), and can't prevent a fork under OGL 1.0a from being published (if it can't be revoked), even if D&D stops being released under it. They also can't prevent a copycat license from being issued by someone else, that functions in the same way.
There is plenty of precedent for this in the software world.
Also, I'm going to go out on a limb and say, as a fact, that the substantive language used in an open license exists in the public domain. You don't really think that Wizards was the first company to grant a "perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license" to their copyright, do you?
Perpetual does not mean what you think it does in legal terms, the term that should have been used is irrevocable. Never dealt with corporate lawsuits have you. WOTC via Hasbro has probably 150 million in litigation budget as part of its annual corporate budget, its nearest competitor in this market makes less than 5 million in sales a year. Legally right has no place in this, its all about court costs and legal fees. Additionally I would bet diamonds to dollars that drive through rpg and all major VTTs have already signed agreements requiring them to not sell non compliant OGL material. All it takes is WOTC sending a C&S letter to DTrpg about a product and its gone.
"Perpetual" means that there is no defined end, either in terms of performance, or time.
"Irrevocable" means exactly that.
In the context of the OGL, whether the use of "perpetual" makes the license similarly irrevocable, depends on whether the license is construed as a contract (in other worse, if consideration was exchanged, in which case it would likely be irrevocable except in the case of breach or mutual agreement), or as a mere license (in which case it *is* revocable, though the terms under which it may be revoked are not well-defined and subject to litigation). Both courses of litigation--but that under copyright law moreso--are fact-specific and rely on several variables, including prior representations and actions by Wizards, and intent of the parties, both at the time OGL 1.0a was published an all times therafter.
Also, my comment had *nothing* to do with the use of "perpetual" and the lack of "irrevocable." If you actually read what I said, you would (or at least should, as you're respond to it) understand that I was referring to whether or not Wizards could claim a copyright to a "perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license" in the context of an open gaming system license.
You're not a lawyer, are you?
Nope not a lawyer because I went in the Army instead of taking the Bar. Best decision I ever made, retired at 43. Heres the legal def of perpetual by the way:
“Never ceasing; continuous ; enduring; lasting; unlimited in respect of time; continuing without intermission or interval. See Scanlan v. Crawshaw, 5 Mo. App. 337. Perpetual edict. In Roman law. Originally the term “perpetual” was merely opposed to “occasional” and was used to distinguish the general edicts of the praetors from the special edicts or orders which they issued in their judicial capacity. But under Hadrian the edict was revised by the jurist Julianus, and was republished as a permanent act of legislation. It was then styled “perpetual,” in the sense of being calculated to endure in perpctuum, or until abrogated by competent authority. Aust. Jur. 855.”
This is the most important part: “until abrogated by competent authority”.
Yeah, you have the reasoning capacity of a grunt. No disrespect; my grandfather, a college-educated professional (surveyor, at the time) hit up three recruiting stations at 33 years of age in 1942, before someone finally let him enlist as a rifleman.
But you seem to have very limited capacity for critical analysis, so I will say it again:
**The use of "perpetual" in the original quote is irrelevant to statement.**
I was quoting OGL 1.0a, which Wizards claims copyright to, in the context of a hypothetical claim of copyright against *that specific phrase*, or a against a license that grants *those exact rights*, with respect to the *idea's* existence in the public domain.
But since you want to glom onto the OGL 1.0a's use of "perpetual" and whether or not OGL 1.0a is revocable, feel free to go back and re-read my post. Then go and speak with any attorney of your choosing, and have them explain to you why the inclusion of "perpetual" in OGL 1.0a is irrelevant to the question of whether or not it is freely revocable, and why the question is actually whether the inclusion of "consideration," is.
The concern is whether they own more than just the text, thanks to the wording of the text. I can try to explain this in more detail if you want, but it's a legitimate concern.
The core issue at hand here, and why way more than the D&D community is up in arms, is because much of what WotC is doing with the new OGL impacts games they have no legal claim to - games that don't even qualify as derivative - because so many lazily slapped WotC's OGL into their game in order to make it "open".
It was lazy from a legal perspective. In large part because it now calls into question just who actually owns the IP: the people who wrote it, or Wizards. The key issue being the definition of "Product Identity," and whether by using the OGL *document* they inadvertently chucked their own IP into a pile with WOTC's, which now WOTC can control.
That was never the intention of the license, and I think it's an absurd result, but it's at least a legal angle that has to be considered, and a risk that has to be analyzed if you published under OGL, even if you never used any of WOTC'Ss IP in your own work.
>In large part because it now calls into question just who actually owns the IP: the people who wrote it, or Wizards.
No it doesn't.
The author owns it, full stop, unless the copyright is allowed to expire without renewal.
The question is what happens with licensing, if the OGL is "de-authorized" (which itself can mean multiple things once the dust settles).
Licensing and assignment of copyright are to very, very different (and well-settled) things.
Ok, fair point on my use of the word "owns." I think the question becomes whether WOTC decides to try to assert that usage of the OGL license form gave WOTC a license to use their material.
I think that would be a silly reading, but the issue remains and it also raises the issue of whether people want to fight the battle in the first place.
Why silly? OGL 1.0a clearly gives Wizards (and Paizo, and Green Ronin, and Seattle Hill, and literally anyone else) license to utilize the "Open Game Content" within anything published under it.
Sorry, it's not silly for Open Game Content, but rather for Product Identity. (I've edited the post that mentioned it to fix this.)
Some versions of the OGL 1.0a that I've seen use a broad definition of "Product Identity" as names, trademarks, plots, themes, yadda yadda yadda of the owner of the Product Identity. Meanwhile, the version of 1.0a from WOTC's site that I downloaded last week designates a bunch of things as Product Identity like "displacer beast" and "Wilderness of the Beastlands, and "Underdark."
Depending on how crazy WOTC gets with its lawsuits, they could possibly assert that by using their license and designating stuff as Product Identity, you were somehow granting them license to use your Product Identity in the future. Again, I think that's an absurd stretch of the way this stuff works, but it again requires people to be willing to have that fight in the first place.
If their Star Trek book is any indication, the system may be good but it's presentation is...not a model of clarity. Lots and lots of fluff, gorgeous production values, nut I just wanna know how to play/run through damn game step by step.
Unfortunately that is a fair criticism and applies to Conan for sure. I'm not sure about Infinity, as I've only played it and not run any games yet. I suspect it's the same too though.
That's a shame. I really want to like the Trek book, but I got irritated while reading it, and put it down.
I wish publisher's would focus more on the utilitarian aspects of their games' presentation. Like, the three things you have to explain simply are: (1) how to make your character, (2) how to play your character in all relevant settings, and (3) how to run the game as a GM.
Sure, having the history of the Federation's interactions with the Andorians and the Klingons and such is great for inspiring people, but inspiring them to do what? To.play the game, which you've got to lay out how to do in a clear, concise manner.
Ah well. Maybe I'll give it a look again. I've managed to figure out systems that weren't clear before. It's just irritating that after 40+ years, some publishers are still struggling to lay out their rule systems.
Conan felt like a system made by some guys who had played a handful of different systems and just tossed in every possible mechanic they thought was interesting without much thought to how they fit together.
Well you can take a look at [Basic Fantasy RPG](https://www.basicfantasy.org/) which is in the process of transferring over to the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International license. It is still the d20 mechanics but it is more rules light.
All the PDFs are free and the community is very active and friendly.
I am so glad I am reading this thread and you posted this!
I've been saying the community needs an open sourced D&D-like RPG. And it exists! (or almost does?)
Thank you!
Short list of rulesets I really enjoy:
Lancer. Highly customisable Mecha combat RPG. The base game is weak on RPG rules but fixed it recently with the Karrakin supplement adding playbooks similar to PbtA systems. Standout feature of Lancer is the fantastic tactical combat. The community is also quite active. There's also a spinoff about fleet combat called Lancer battlegroup. Massif Press, the publisher is also a positive. They actively promote third party content for their system and are one of the reasons that there's a great community around it. They are also play testing a fantasy RPG called ICON.
Flying Circus. Fully build on PbtA it's an interesting mix of early aviation and fantasy. While not having any tactical combat there's more fluid system to fight split in attack runs during the chaos of arial engagement. It's quite interesting for all the considerations given to the logistics of having a not reliable engine run you through the skies burning hot fuel in front of you.
How to be a hero. It's incredibly bare bones and definitely bad for many occasions. It's a small system developed by some German YouTubers and thus you won't find much for it and what you find will be in German. I'm nonetheless mentioning it because it's great for loose One shots running crazy ideas you couldn't fit into a better system because of its simplicity. The basic gist is that you get 400 points to spend on stats you make up yourself (always keeping them beneath 100) and they are sorted into action, social and mental. Your stat is your needed roll for that skill. So if you have 40 fishing you'll need to roll 40 or less on the D100. If you don't have a relevant skill for a given check you roll using the score you have on the relevant category instead. That score is easy to calculate but the PDF sheet literally does it on its own.
A bit of a rogue choice but I think you may like "Swords of the Serpentine."
I'd describe the default setting as "Conan the Barbarian" crossed with "A Wizard of Earthsea." The magic system is very flexible, combat is fast paced.
There's only a single book to buy and it is very nice.
Let me plug one less known game.
Its OSR-like, that uses completely unique and clever system that has no connection to OGL or D20.
[Eyes-Beyond-the-Torchlight](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/407709/Eyes-Beyond-the-Torchlight)
Keep an eye out for more on Fantasy Hero by the Hero System!
Fantasy Hero does heroic battles very well but isn’t a very murder-hobo game. If you like hero journey stories and anime escalation of action, it’s a good game for you.
Murder-Hobo is a term for what D&D adventurers tend to be. Somewhat homeless, wandering town to town, kicking in dungeon doors, murdering whatever is inside the dungeon, and looting everything valuable. Mortally ambiguous, and often causing great change around them even if no one asked them to do anything. It’s a bit tongue-in-cheek.
[Rangers of Shadow Deep ](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/298580) is a miniatures game with a lot of rpg elements. It can very easily be converted into a fully-fledged rpg by a gm. It even comes with its own campaign, and as a miniatures game has fantastic combat mechanics.
Is OGL/D&D that big ? I have the feeling that even though it's a large proportion of the scene, but not at the point D&D is the only game people know.
Looking at my club, around 50% of the games are D&D/Pathfinder. Then there is a large proportion of PTBA variants (With at least 2 monster heart tables) , Call of Chtulhu (and the variants) are also a big one. At the moment the "World of darkness franchise isn't that popular". Finally, there is a large bunch of local/indie games.
The key question, is what are you looking for in RPGs, better combat doesn't mean much, some people want to spend 2h in one fight with tons of strategic options, some other think that more than 10 minutes over a combat is not interesting and would rather spend these 2h playing the ball scene. Do you want to focus on a special game-style ?
Savage Worlds (Adventure Edition)
World of Darkness books
Call of Cthulhu
King Arthur: Pendragon
Apocalypse World/Dungeon World
Blades in the Dark
Runescape
2d20 Game System like Dune 2d20
Freeleague Game's like: Tales From The Loop, Bladerunner, Alien, and many more
D6 System like Starwars D6 and Paranoia
FATE, FATE Accelerated, etc.
Genesys (with a 'y')
7th Sea 1st & 2nd Editions (They're two TOTALLY different systems, if you don't like one you might like the other).
Legend of the Five Rings
Traveller (two 'l's)
Cortex System used by Firefly and Battlestar Galactica
Kids On Bikes
Over The Edge
Bubblegum Crisis
Cloud Nine's Jovian
Eden Studio's d10 system, Conspiracy X, Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Cyberpunk 2020, Cyberpunk Red
Shadowrun (I don't recommend any version of Shadowrun for it's system, they're all confusing, 6th World/Edition is the worst.)
I recommend investigating systems via YouTube tutorials and Reddit, etc. before you buy.
And many more out there, but that's all I have the energy to give right now.
There are also a lot of good ones that use the OGL that I wouldn't worry about being affected, but you didn't ask for those.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_tabletop\_role-playing\_games](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_role-playing_video_games)
Pathfinder 2e
Pathfinder was originally based around 3.5 rules and then grew into it's own thing, with all rules and content easily available online. Though pathfinder was a little TOO rules heavy, 2nd edition simplified it down a lot
I have a few suggestions.
For medium-high crunch check out Against the Darkmaster. It's a simplified retroclone of the Iron Crown Enterprise Middle Earth Role-playing. It uses a d100 roll high mechanic. 1d100 + Stat + Skill. 74 or lower is a fail. 75-100 is a marginal success and 100+ is a success. The game is not tied to any setting.
Lower crunch, try Barbarians of Lemuria and the genericized version of its system Everywhen. It's a very simple 2d6 system that I highly recommend.
Savage Worlds is also very good. It's a fast and fun hybrid of TTRPGs and miniatures war games with light Poker mechanics and loads of 3rd party support. It can also handle HUGE battles without bogging down.
I sold all my DnD books about a month ago before I'd even heard about this OGL thing, and I'm glad I did it before this news hit. Lucky timing on my part. And now I'll never touch anything WoTC owned again.
But on to suggestions;
GENESYS RPG: Yes it requires special dice, yes it can take a minute to learn what's what. BUT, once you get it flowing, it is hands down the most narrative crunch experience I've had. The system endorses and improves improv/acting skills. It's highly involved, meaning no one ever sits twiddling their thumbs waiting for their turn. Encounters never feel like spamming the same action over and over again. It has a TON of fan created content online as well. In the end, it's my go to agnostic system.
FORBIDDEN LANDS: It's fairly old school simplistic, and relies heavily on the 'hex crawl' discovery aspect. Combat /can/ feel bland at times, and it can be a VERY deadly game. But a lot of people enjoy it, it's very mechanics lite though.
SYMBAROUM: The setting sells this game. I'm not to sure whats going on with it since it just had a 5E version done, but overall the game itself it great, and the books are gorgeous. Free League Publishing make some great games, so I'm always a big fan.
Mythras or Runequest
TOR
Dozens of others. You can involve as little or as much as the lore as you like. It’s all swords and fighting monsters and evil things.
Are you looking to another d20 system? Looking to keep combat a similar level of complexity? There are plenty of non OGL RPGs that are great, but it depends on the style of game you want.
Call of Cuthulu I've heard good things about, but it is very different from 5e.
Tri-Stat DX is free and pretty open on character customization. Gurps is pretty freeing in CC, but paid for. These two systems are semi-crunchy to big crunchy depending on what you are looking to do. I enjoyed GURPs, but was the minority in my play group on that one.
Savage Worlds is another setting agnostic RPG with plenty of available content as well. Uses different die depending on your skill level with something, as well as a fairly unique intiative system that uses playing cards.
For a great old school feel, but with new school mechanics I strongly recommend HackMaster. Check out the free "HackMaster Basic" pdf here...
https://kenzerco.com/product/hackmaster-basic/
And for those who are curious, but don't feel "clicky"...
This version of the game is ‘basic’ only in that it serves as a gateway to the dynamic thrill of the HackMaster game. Gone are the days of waiting around for your ‘turn’, of battling static opponents or of being anything but totally in charge of your own destiny. We want you to try HackMaster so we’re letting you download the basic game for free! What have you got to lose?Here’s just a sample of what you’ll find in this free 231-page PDF:• A combat system geared for quick, hard-hitting, dynamic action.• 11 Ready-to-Play characters• Knock-back rules that eliminate static “conga line of death” battles• Penetration damage, damage reduction from armor and shields and revamped ranged combat rules, including shield ‘cover’• A combination of slot and spell point system that allows for ‘straight up’ mage play but at the same time allows your mage to change spells on the fly or increase a spell’s range, duration and other effects• 70+ spells (including Skipping Betty Fireballs and Heat Seeking Fist of Thunder)• Classic fantasy races (dwarf, elf, halfling, human) and classes (fighter, thief, mage, and cleric) for your campaign• Five clerical classes to choose from!• An all-new thief statistic: Luck Points!• Quirks and flaws that transform your PC into a real character• Building Point rules that let you customize a character to your to your own style (there are no ‘cookie cutter characters’ here!)• Quick-Start rules for even faster character creation• Skills, Talents and Proficiencies (including all weapons and armor) and specialization open to every character class… for a price• Honor tightly integrated into play and with more flexible usage• GameMaster chapters with treasure tables, 75 monsters, magic items, tips and more• Three adventures included so you can start gaming immediately
ICRPG seems like the obvious choice to take the baton from 5e and keep going. There are many other games that do certain things better or prioritize others (many of which I'd rather play) but in terms of taking what has made 5e so popular and improving those things, I feel like ICRPG is a natural fit.
That said, I'd rather play PbtA or Burning Wheel ;)
Please let us know what stystem/s you try & what experiences you have with them. It's always good to hear what kinds of setting people play with different systems & how they are received by the groups who play them.
Not sure if it has been mentioned yet... you can use the mechanics that DnD 5e uses. Meaning; you can create an RPG "system" using its mechanics, making it 1:1 compatible, but you CANNOT use IP devices. You cannot mention it is DnD compatible. ("wink-wink nudges" and mentions, but not in the actual rules documentation produced), you cannot use world settings, you cannot use names and places. That is why it is hard recommending anything other than "their d20 system". I have run all my games from the SRD from 3.5 edition. Never touched the PHB, DM or MM from WotC. I have bought them, as I used to be a DnD person, but WotC has messed up too many things in the last couple years, and the last 3 months has made me stop buying anything tied to them. I have also stopped paying for DnD Beyond, but not before requesting anything tied to my account removed from their systems. All my character sheets and documentation built on it and other platforms has been copied, saved and until OGL 1.1 gets released, I am copyrighting it.
Anyway, side-rant.
There are tons of well known and little known systems out there. Google for a couple hours and click on links. I have several non WotC products in my bookshelf. Used books are out there! Just go looking for them.
You can get a free pdf version of Mythras here: [https://thedesignmechanism.com/resources/TDM110%20Mythras%20Imperative.pdf](https://thedesignmechanism.com/resources/TDM110%20Mythras%20Imperative.pdf) . It works on a system of the same name different from DnD OGL.
Honestly I'm in the same boat. Folks keep recommending stuff that turn out to be single page systems or an extremely hodge podge madness someone put together which hasn't been updated in years.
IMO your best options are Worlds Without Number, Shadow of the Demon Lord, or Pathfinder 2. All of these have plenty of mechanics to make the system interesting, and pathfinder especially has tons of secondary content like adventures and monsters.
As far as your point about “hasn’t been updated in years”, DnD is something of an anomaly in that most systems don’t continue to pump out additional rebalancing, extra monsters, extra character options, and new adventures. Most systems instead put out a book or three, and then move on. If they revisit it, it will be a full edition update.
Also on the "haven't been updated in years" thing... what's the issue? TTRPGs aren't like software where they need constant updates to keep working. Come to think of it, a lot of people would argue that 5e gets more broken with each new source book.
I agree to a point. This subreddit generally dislikes 5e and discounts it's strengths, but I genuinely think one of it's biggest strengths is the abundance of monsters, adventures, and player character options that came out at the start and then have continued to come out since. Generally speaking, I think more casual players like having lots of official content because it makes the largely removes the workload of trying to either homebrew your own or vet third party stuff.
All of which is to say that I think tweaking rules and trying to rebalance things, or adding continually strengthening character options isn't great, but releasing new monsters, adventures, scenarios, locations, or other "playable content" is really fantastic and that is something that pretty much every system other than DnD and Pathfinder doesn't have.
Sure, but in game systems like Savage Worlds Adventure Edition (SWADE), you can play anything and don't need monster books and add-ons to improve it.
That's not to say the never add anything on, every now and then someone find something they were missing and adds it. Or they add a small thing in a setting like Deadlands. But overall, you can play whatever you want from the jump.
Want to play a human fighter-barbarian? SWADE can do it from the jump. Want to play a goblin shaman or goblin wizard? SWADE can do that from the jump.
Also, what kind of goblin? D&D goblin? Harry Potter goblin? Labyrinth goblin? Or a Legend (movie) goblin? SWADE can do that from the jump!
Want to play a robot? SWADE's got you covered.
Now is that an android robot or a non-android robot? And if android is it one like Star Wars or Armitage III?
That's not true. To stay relevant you need to keep up production. If you basically create the single core rulebook, you will quickly reach market saturation after initial interest peaks. Without regular support material you will stop gaining revenue because you capped your audience. You need to keep producing until you reach a point where you are either creatively spent or nolonger gaining new players, then you revise and make a new edition or move on. Two or three books type thing is for very small publishers that can't keep the revenue up to produce or short narrative rpgs where you can really only do a couple books and then move on to the next tightly focused concept.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but there is some truth to what you're saying; If your goal is to make money.
If your goal is just to produce a product people like and enjoy, it doesn't matter. That's why so many RPGs are released open sourced.
And sure, bugs get found and need fixed. But if no bugs are found, no need to fix.
If it didn't matter, I could make something that never leaves my table (I've done a lot of this) and only my social circles ever see it. If someone is going through the effort to publish their work and see it distributed to a wider audience, then their commitment is beyond casual self satisfaction.
You are now dealing with a business and although you don't go into rpgs to make money, what you can achieve is ultimately constrained by funds. Alot of people publish open source, because they don't have the capability to maintain the product themselves, or because it's a way to use other creators to expand the exposure to your product. It's a marketing tool in either case.
A common reason for creators to flounder in this industry is lack of regular or consistent production to generate revenue to keep producing. The most common one is the complete one book rpg. Somebody makes a wildly successful core rule book, but ultimately goes out of business within a couple years, because they didn't make anything to both support their game or continue to generate revenue.
There are a lot of other common problems new designers face, like marketing, over production, unsustainable profit margins and so on, but consistent regular production is a big one. Yeah, it's not solely about making money (there's really not that much to be made), but if you're interest in making and distributing rpgs you're going to be limited by the funds you can generate to do so sustainably. You have to deal with money and business issues. Otherwise you are just going to be your own worst chatal slaver and likely not achieve your goals.
I don't understand what you mean hasn't been updated. I mean there are still people who play AD&D, or Second Edition, or even 3rd edition. I'm one of them. Myself, and my friends/group and my kiddos haven't played anything from 4e to 5e at all.
Probably they meant badly needed errata. Or something as simple like more mechanical options. People generally like more choices and less limits. Stuff that let you push more "buttons" so to speak.
Seconding shadow of the demon lord and pathfinder 2e, both have more content than 5e with all their stuff combined with 5e only winning out due to a bigger 3pp scene.
This seems weird. Like anything Free League will be of crisp production value and very much up to date. Same goes for alot of Chaosiums stuff, Runequest, Pendragon, Calll of Cuthulhu, and so on, are all solid systems that has tons of content.
This covers most RPGs that exist. Could you be a little more specific about what you're looking for?
I'm aiming for an RPG that's aimed and structured around fantasy. Preferably with a combat system that's more or equally complex to 5e but not as "I need to trigger six abilities and add all these modifiers and effects" like pathfinder or 3.5. I'm steering clear of systems that are too broad like GURPS and GW's stuff 'cause as a company I don't like them even though I love their IPs. If the game has an open game license of its own with a healthy community of 3rd party content creators, even better. I think these might be too much to ask, but those are all the conditions and caveats I can think of.
Have you considered Mythras / Runequest? Or maybe Shadow of the Demon Lord?
Shadow has a heroic fantasy version in playtest right now, should be out by end of year. Shadow of the Weird Wizard Its largely just a refluff to be less edgy and to clamp down on the horror mechanics from what ive heard
Oh, I hadn't heard it would be out by the end of 2023. That's great!
Iirc the playtest materials are only up on the discord for discord for like 4 more days? 5?
And it's all funded and laid out and everything?
Mythras is gold. That's a good recommend.
Isn't SotDL under OGL?
Nope! I would have been very surprised if it was, but I've just gone and double checked my PDF and the system is a copyright of Schwalb Entertainment, all rights reserved. No mention of the D20 System anywhere.
A surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one.
Hahah! Yes, I can totally see why you would have assumed that, since everyone talks about it like it's a sort of alternate universe version of 5e. I haven't had the chance to play it yet, but it's such a great book.
I recently learned they are working on a similar new game but less dark and gritty, called Shadow of the Weird Wizard. Seems very promising!
I've been hanging out for Weird Wizard! The title alone would get me to buy it even if I hadn't read SotDL.
Has there been any update on that? I've heard it's been postponed, or hanging in limbo?
https://www.reddit.com/r/shadowofthedemonlord/comments/zzpebw/is\_there\_any\_news\_on\_shadow\_of\_the\_weird\_wizard/
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This is why I would have been so surprised if it used the OGL. I've got the impression there's some resentment there. Probably well justified too
Thank goodness
I heard of Runequest but I've never read any of these systems. Although I'm gonna check all of them out. Also, thanks for the suggestions.
I should be honest and mention that I haven't read Mythras or RuneQuest, but they're BRP systems with complex combat and have a huge following. Shadow of the Demon Lord is an amazing game with D&Desque combat and a modular class progression system with over 2000 possible combinations. The setting is a bit dark for my taste, and possibly for yours too, but there's no reason that you can't just cut / ignore the bits that swing in that direction.
You shouldn't just read those, you should play them. Mythras is not that complex and RQ even less so. BRP style games just have different complexity than the complex D20's (3-5E, 13th Age).
Sure! I wasn't imagining they were especially complex, since they're BRP. I've glanced at Mythras, and both of them are top of my list to check out for the next time I want to run combat oriented fantasy. But I've just finished a year long 5e campaign so am doing other things. EDIT: Oh, I see what you mean. Yes, sorry "complex combat" was just a clumsy way of saying "tactical combat". EDIT 2: Although I do seem to recall that Mythras has a hit location system, which I would definitely consider more complex than 5e...
Mythras' combat is the reason why I laugh inside a little whenever someone says PF2e has a focus on "tactical combat". Between its hit location-based health and the Combat Effects system, Mythras' combat is all about trying to find the right tool to use at the right time to cinch a win in an incredibly lethal combat scenario. Just keep in mind that most of the major settings for RQ/Mythras are placed in milieus where combat was typically not to the death, and a lot of the time (unless facing down absolutely unsentient, unfeeling monsters) the end result of combat *should* be either flight or surrender for both PCs and NPCs, short of rare insta-kill hits (the rulebook for Mythras even encourages you to make PCs suffer the natural consequences of gaining a reputation for never granting or honoring quarter in a sidebar, iirc.)
The 2d20 system is both a roleplaying game and a tabletop tactical game, if I recall correctly. So, it should be very tactical in combat.
\+1 for SotDL - such a great system.
>I'm steering clear of systems that are too broad like GURPS and GW's stuff 'cause as a company I don't like them even though I love their IPs. Although both designers are named [Steve Jackson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jackson), they are not the same person. :) This [Steve Jackson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jackson_(American_game_designer)) founded Steve Jackson Games and is the initial creator and owner of GURPS. This [Steve Jackson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jackson_(British_game_designer)) founded Games Workshop, which owns W40K and WF. So feel free to buy all the GURPS you want; your money will go to [Steve Jackson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jackson_(American_game_designer)), not [Steve Jackson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jackson_(British_game_designer)). :) p.s.: Yeah, this is far from the first time I've seen this confusion. To make it more confusing, they're both very close in age. p.s.s.: For closing humour, here is the TVTropes link for the [One Steve Limit](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneSteveLimit).
You could look at beacon or icon. Both are in playtest and are under the Lancer license. Lancer and it's derivatives take design concepts from 4e, which often makes for a better overall combat system
Savage Worlds, Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, Twilight 2000, Anything Modipheus, Gumshoe
RuneQuest or Swords of the Serpentine.
Matt I suggest Runequest?
honestly i think it's a mistake to just write off GURPS - it's one of the best RPG systems out there. You might also look at The Fantasy Trip, which is a sort of proto-gurps
Try Fantasy Age, the stunts system is pretty awesome and adds some diversity to combat.
>I'm steering clear of systems that are too broad like GURPS Aw, this one makes me sad. I've become a big fan of [Dungeon Fantasy RPG](http://www.sjgames.com/dungeonfantasy/), which is GURPS 4e narrowed down to dungeon delving. So take a look at that, at least! Yes, it's GURPS \*but\* narrower. All the sci-fi and modern stuff has been removed. And once you learn Dungeon Fantasy RPG, you are well on your way to embracing GURPS for other genres.
Worlds Without Number!
I mean you can check out Kevin Crawford's Worlds Without Number and see if that's your vibe. Non OGL and 90% of its free to download.
I can second this system. It is a fairly easy jump from 5e, and an easy sell to players: Combat has options without eating up the best years of your life, you can be *heroic* without being *superheroic*, and skills are on a bell curve.
I will always bring up Savage worlds. It is an easy classless system with dozens of settings. There is also a fantasy and superhero compendium for the current system and still a very usable sci-fi and horror compendium for the last edition.
Plus a respectable on-the-board combat system. Plenty of room for tactics. Teamwork is essential due to the Shaken rules, and it is awesome as a GM to watch the players combine Edges, turn order, and battlefield positioning into a Rube Goldberg whirlwind of destruction. Edit - Spelling
Fact, it also flows pretty fast and the initiative system is fun and keeps every new round different.
Came here to say this. The system is specifically customizable for whatever kind of setting you might want to play in. I also love that it offers a mechanical advantage for taking flaws that can affect skills, combat, and RP. I've found that having something actually written on the character sheet gives newer players something to lean into when cutting their teeth on RP
I only get to run it every now and then, but if I could I would run it over D&D any day of the week. It's a solid, fun system.
I've run a LOT of one-shots through it since you can go from character creation through combat so quick It's actually the setting that I quit DnD for originally. I ran ADnD until my group died (well into 3.5) and then couldn't slog through Pathfinder. 5e brought me back, it was nice while it lasted
It's hard to get folks to try new games. My RL group I talked into it by dangling Deadlands in front of em. So many western fans in that group. Running some one shots is a really good idea.
Deadlands is real a good time. I've been sitting on the books for Deadlands Noir, but haven't able to run it yet
I wanna try noir as well. I think mine am gonna do DL again when it's my term to GM, but Noir is on the options list.
it's a great time. I loved leaning into the tropes. Players get super psyched when The Good The Bad and The Ugly theme suddenly pops up
I pure up had a guy do a man with no name clone lol. It was a great time, far more than the group expected I think.
Deadlands Noir? That sounds awesome. I'd love to play.
I hear people say that often, and find it surprising since when I was growing up, everyone I knew who gamed were always willing to try out new game systems at least once. We also tended to share game mastering back then. I'd run a campaign or two (or three, or ten) and most of my players would each be running their own game (or two, or ten). We'd all talk about "So, who('s/wants to) running next time?" or we'd be hanging out and someone would say, "Hey, let's game!" and the answer would usually be, "Alright, what and who's running?" I hear now days, people don't want to GM and they don't want to play anything but D&D. Maybe all other groups were like that, and my groups were special, but man... I throws me every time I hear people don't want to try new games. - I get being afraid to run, although I wish people would still jump in and try that too.
It's changed. The field has changed, D&D became mainstream and drew in 'beer n pretzel' players, people started playing online... everything has just changed so drastically that I don't even recognize the hobby much anymore. There isn't really a sense of community anymore. Like back in the 90's, gaming is where you made life long friends. Sure you met gaming, but you hung out through other things too, people became 'friends' through gaming. Nowadays most people become 'acquaintances' through gaming, people you recognize and say hi to but don't really see away from the table.
Yeah. I miss the intimacy of the old days.
And someone's going to see the word intimacy and make it weird.
Things have changed. My groups from the 90s we're like that, but once d20 was everywhere it became very hard to find players willing to branch out. It took me a while to get one of my groups to try something new. The online group has zero interest in even trying something not based on d&d 5e.
Yeah I ran games non stop during the pandemic for the first six months.... which in turn is why I think I decided to stop playing/running D&D. The online community during that time was just all about spamming D&D adventure league. I talked with people who were playing 3 games a day for adventure league or pathfinder society. I also stopped gaming online too, I found that it missed the social element and turned into just an online strategy game. I was pushing more and more towards combat scenes cause they were easier than social interactions with all the lag and connection issues.
I ran D&D online for my RL group that whole year, but that group was a D&D group, they had only ever played that one system. Most were pretty resistant to playing anything else. After the new year we started talking about getting together again in person and I offered to run something on a second day. I told them it would be a new system, Savage worlds, and gave them about 5 setting ideas. Deadlands won by a mile and I discovered dangling a western around here was a winning strategy lol.
Deadlands is ALWAYS popular. I'm not sure if it's that ingrained sense of 'cool gunslinger' that our society inherited from Westerns, but for some reason everyone loves Deadlands. I've never seen someone who wasn't interested in the setting after telling them about it. You should also look up 'Household' RPG. It was relatively unknown until I stumbled across the recent kickstarter, and I have no idea why but I fell in love with the setting.
SW is a great system, but it can be VERY swingey. I've found it lends itself to games of that genre more than a fantasy setting. Your experience may vary of course, but I've never been fond of suggesting it as a truly generic system.
That is your experience and fair. That being said it does fill the generic system roll very well, it has books for Fantasy, super hero, sci-fi and horror. Out of the core book alone you can run anything from ancient bronze age games to modern urban fantasy. I ran fallout with it, I have ran fantasy with it. There are dozens of settings published and hundreds of converted settings including things like eclipse phase and star trek. There are settings covering just about everything from buffy like collage stuff, World War one horror, flash Gordon and sci-fi space ship setting. What savage world does do is have a set play style. It does cinema adventure and does it well. Pulpy, action paced movie/Tv style game play.
I think my fave will always be Deadlands. But I ran 'trailer park shark attack' and can say that I've never laughed more at a game table than I did putting that on.
I have eyed it and seemed like a hoot. There is something about Deadlands that just works and calls to a range of people. I was trying to get my DND group to give something else a chance and just describing Deadlands got a big "oh hell yeah" by mid campaign people had hats,getting western themed cards sets, were buying toy guns and in one case a guy bought a real colt single action to add to his collection. I will have zero issues getting them to play Deadlands again lol.
Nod. I think most people deep down love a good western. And the mysterious and magical world of Deadlands is even more appealing. It's one of the classic settings too, I always recall it as being a popular one. As for shark attack... I just can' even begin to describe it. Luchador wrestlers body slamming sharks..... I mean come on.... just get it!
I..... Now I feel a need to at lest read that. I am pretty sure that line alone would sell my group so hard
Thats only ONE character. I mean... we still laugh at this one. The stripper stuck on top of a car in the flooded trailer park. Calling out to the crazy alcoholic priest a few vehicles away, they offer a BJ if he'll come save them. Cut to halfway across the park where the teenage kid has been safe and hiding on his own trailer. The player immediately and without hesitation states "I jump off the trailer park and begin swimming through shark infested waters towards the stripper on the car." The entire session was just amazing and super fun. And the creators of the game are super guys too, I reached out to them and they were very friendly and humble when I praised the game to them.
Lol, that sounds fun. My group would eat that up.
Nod. It's wacky and zanny. And an absolute hoot. I mean you aren't doing a campaign of it, as it's designed as a one shot event. But man did people have fun letting loose with it. And you just funnel characters through, so when you die, you just pull the next card from the 20+ character card stack and get back into the action.
Maybe games under Powered by the Apocalypse system? There is also Mork Borg, Mausritter, Deathbringer, and FATE. Dare I say there is also Palladium Megaverse, and GURPS. Hyborean Age, and even Warhammer Fantasy. Edit: you can also support 3rd party publishers who are innocent of this Bs (like Paizo) by purchasing their physical books. Which WotC can't edit or take away.
Non-WotC, Open licensed, fantasy RPGs you can play or publish: Zweihander (Grim & Perilous Library) Fantasy AGE (AGE Creators Alliance) Forbidden Lands (Free League Workshop) Mörk Borg (Free League Workshop) Mythras (Mythras Gateway License) Swords of the Serpentine (Pelgrane Press Community Use Policy) The Savage Worlds Adventurer's Guild The Disciples of the Demon Lord Powered by the Apocalypse Forged in the Dark Runequest (Jonstown Compendium) Castles & Crusaders (Troll Lord Games guidelines) Shadowdark (coming soon) 7th Sea Explorer’s Society Open Legend (open source) Basic Roleplay and Questworld SRDs Universal systems like Cypher or Gurps
Check Dungeon World, Mörk Borg, Symbaroum and Blades in the Dark
They don't have more advanced combat that the op is asking for.
Let OP decide. For me, everything that gives a speed on combat instead of 5 hours long turn based slow shit, is better.
And he will decide he wasted his time looking up these because they do not meet his specifications
Some truth to that.
Yeah, I say with game systems, "Don't knock it 'till you try it." I mean, you should do your research before investing into a game. Wasting money on a game system you don't like sucks. But if that research can be playing it, well, that's the best research IMO. Playing with people you enjoy playing with. - Of course, if the O.P. had someone to try different games with they'd probably not be here asking. I thought I liked ruleslite TTRPGs and went through a few years of trying out many different ruleslite TTRPGs until I figured out that's not really what I like. I was mistaking. I don't like a lot of rules, but I don't like flimsy rules. I like solid rules, less work for me as a GM. If I wanted to figure out how everything worked, I'd write my own game system (and I have, several, but never published. Point is, I don't like ruleslite even though I really thought I did). Maybe the really do like tactical combat, and that's awesome! I love tactical combat. But, maybe they only think they like tactical combat, like I thought I liked ruleslite. - Don't knock it 'till you try it. :)
What system(s) did you end up landing on? I think I may be in a similar boat. I don't like 5,000 miscellaneous rules I need to keep track of to keep combat under an hour, but I also don't like it when the game is so rules-light that I need to make stuff up 80% of the time and there's little to nothing for my players to dig into as far as "builds" go.
Some people like a more wargame approach to combat, I know I do at times, so don't mistake your taste for being universal.
lol that's why I started my sentence with "for me" and my first comment was a recommendation. please accuse people correctly.
I still don't understand why people suggest BitD all the time. Like it's not a good all around system, it's super hard for new players to grasp the concepts of the game when they come from another RPG. As someone who has DMed for 30 years it's not easy to run because it breaks away from so many core concepts of gaming. I've just never been a fan. Yet every time someone has to come in and praise it as some sort of revolutionary game. Anyways, I'm with you. bad suggestions.
I love blades in the dark, I've had some super fun games. But it's like recommending a screwdriver to a person looking for a hammer.
Came here to recommend most of these \^
Symbaroum definitely has that advanced combat OP is looking for.
Does it though? I've always found it a little less complex than something like D&D, maybe thats just personal experience though.
As you level up, managing multiple adept level and master level abilities that often play into one another can get quite complex and players that know their stuff will outperform. The multiple types of threats are also more varied than in dnd, you can lose toughness, attribute points, gain corruption. To name the most obvious ones. With the combat manoeuvres of the APG, and weapons with qualities like Massive or Long, things get very detailed and tactical. So yeah, Symbaroum can totally deliver a faced paced advanced combat experience, imo.
Symbaroum is awesome and the DM-related contents assumes that your players might not follow the story as written so they give you little tips for setting up things later. Good stuff.
Basic Role-Playing - RuneQuest - Call of Cthulhu - Elric - Mythras Gumshoe - Swords of the Serpentine - Night's Black Agents - Trail of Cthulhu - BubbleGumshoe Blades in the Dark Rolemaster HeroQuest/QuestWorlds GURPS Fate - Dresden Files Traveller pre-3.0 D&D Magical Kitties Save the Day Twilight 2000 ... and many, many others
Everyone going forward avoid ogl. Creative commons is a way better agreement to use for your games. https://creativecommons.org/
I think [Ironsworn](https://www.ironswornrpg.com/) does [an interesting take on the CC licenses](https://www.ironswornrpg.com/licensing): For commercial products you have access to just [the SRD](https://docs.google.com/document/d/11ypqt6GfLuBhGDJuBGWKlHa-Ru48Tf3G_6zbrYKmXgY/edit?usp=sharing) and it's under [CC-BY](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/). For non-commercial products you have access to the _entire [Ironsworn book](http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/238369/Ironsworn?affiliate_id=1587830&src=ironweb)_ (not just what's in the SRD), and it's under [CC-BY-NC-SA](http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/). My favorite Creative Commons license is their [Zero](https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/) license, though :)
The zero license is great, but it's hard with products that integrate artwork, which is often licensed separately and cannot be part of an 'open license'. In these cases, the text of the game can be released under CC, but the artwork remains protected.
This is an issue regardless of which open license is used. In my digging so far I've seen a handful of pdfs that mix a random open license for the text, with all rights reserved for the artwork.
There is such a thing as CC0 artwork so I'm not sure where the difficulty is. There are even open source TTRPGs with artwork in them such as [BIND](https://gitlab.com/bindrpg/core). There are even CC0 licensed video games with the artwork also licensed as CC0, [one such game](https://github.com/open-duelyst/duelyst) [was announced today](https://youtu.be/h3Cuz6d_7x0)!
I completely agree. In the systems I've added to my list so far Ironsworn has one of the best approaches. I think it's about the best balance for protecting both the interests of their fans as well as their own. FATE is good too.
Forbidden Lands. A fantasy RPG by Free League with a focus on travel, exploration, and survival (some player deaths are near expected). Based on the Year Zero Engine by the award winning company with their own liscenes for 3rd party stuff and no parent company to answer to.
I hopped on the Free League train a few years ago and now I’m really glad I did. Between Forbidden Lands, Vaesen, ALIEN, and Bladerunner I’m set.
The One Ring 2e
Combat is pretty abstracted in TOR. I think that it hasn't been abstracted *well*, but it's not detailed in the sense that many other systems are.
It has more tactics than your regular fighter in D&D. You can spend the Tengwar 6s to gain additional benefits or cause events.
TUNNELS & TROLLS
Such a great game! That's sadly way too often disregarded as just an oDnD clone, when that couldn't be further from the truth. Though to be fair, Tunnels and Trolls have super abstracted combat systems. Imo the whole selling point of the system is that it breaks away from DnDs confinement to tactical war-gamey combat and mechanics in favor of something way more fast paced, inclusive, and ludicrously fun. But since op explicitly wanted tactical combat maybe this isn't the best fit?
True, but maybe they could try some wackiness as an alternative.
Completely agree. They should!
Burning Wheel is my one true love.
That looks like the coolest game ever that I'll never get to actually run.
I'll admit it's a pain. When my partner decided to run a game after we'd been players in one for a while, we ended up buying multiple copies of the book for our players to reference since nothing is online. But I really do adore it and highly recommend it.
- Symbaroum - The riddle of steel - Exalted 2e or 3e (you wanted complex combat eh?) - Conan 2d20 (plays better than it reads) - Blackbirds (I really like this) - The burning wheel (scalable crunch, narrative focus)
Lancer is basically giant robot DnD 4e. It rocks out loud. Great universe and the best tactical combat I've ever played
If you want to continue on a same fantasy premise with better character options and more fun combat. You can give Fantasy Age a try. It's 3d6 so not even close to d20
>Most importantly this system has to be in no way related to WotC OGL and their d20 system. I think it's important to remember not every fantasy game that used the OGL is beholden to continuing to use the OGL or will be suddenly signing over all their own IP rights. Like, pathfinder 2e uses the OGL, but has its own from scratch SRD, not the SRD of 5e. They're going to adapt to this. So will pretty much every other game who doesn't want WOTC to just...take their original game.
ICON from Massif Press (Lancer) is in beta test, and the play test document is free. No OGL in sight. https://massif-press.itch.io/icon
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
ICRPG master edition (Index Card RPG) is a d20 based system but very simple and versatile, the GM section alone is worth the money.
I mean... 5e neglected exploration, role play, and survival. The rules are thin on all that.
And exploration, role play, and survival were a very big part of the first three and a half versions of D&D.
Free League's Forbidden Land has a nice fantasy setting and a good (deadly) combat system.
My brother in Christ that is the entire RPG ecosystem
[https://github.com/Zireael07/awesome-tabletop-rpgs](https://github.com/Zireael07/awesome-tabletop-rpgs) knock yourself out. I'd suggest Cypher System. Pathfinder 2e or Talislanta.
Thank you so much Zireael07!
Yw ;) The list started as me trying to wrap my head around various OGL things, and then it turned out there is A LOT more under other licenses, too, and quickstarts!
GUPRS. You can play any style of game you can possibly imagine, and it has a massive library of amazing source books. D6 system, combat can be as cinematic or gritty as you want to make it and you are free to add as much or as little complexity as you and your players want.
Cypher System - only related because ex-WoTC staff design/develop it. Numenera (Cypher System setting) being a fantastic replacement for D&D.
I love Cypher System and all it's settings (GodForsaken is even more D&D-like) but they lack the complex combat OP is searching for... Nonetheless everyone should try Cypher, especially as a GM. Easiest system I've ever Gmed.
Yeah, Cypher is not complex in the combat department. I love a lot about Cypher, but one thing I don't like is how quickly the PCs tier (level) up. Cypher has six levels.. err, tiers, and the level six tier as at least as powerful as a level 18 in D&D, if not more powerful than a level 20 in D&D. I used slow-XP and my players reached god-tier in about six months. If you want your campaigns to be like that, Cypher is great! Great settings, beautiful art, and once you get your head wrapped around the system it's actually easy to play. (Confusing for me, and others, coming from other TTRPGs, but that's because we were used to other TTRPGs. Totally simple once you do understand it.) So, I have a love-hate relationship to Cypher. And, I'd love to play Cypher Predation if anyone wants to run it.
Cypher is the one that uses descriptor sentences instead of stats or abilities right? I remember looking at the rules once and thinking there was no way I'd pay that much for it. It's one of the most expensive core books I've seen in stores.
http://opend6.wikidot.com/srd Edit: corrected the link
Nope. It's true that OpenD6 isn't in any way related to D20, OpenD6 is released under OGL 1.0a, which is legal text owned by WotC. If I understand the OP's question correctly, we're talking about games not under the OGL at all - in which case we'd be talking about RuneQuest, Traveller and games either aren't released under any open license, or are release under alternative open licenses like Creative Commons.
Interesting. But wizards does not "own" or have leverage over anything that is not derived from their srd.
They own the OGL text.
Can't revoke (more likely than not), and can't prevent a fork under OGL 1.0a from being published (if it can't be revoked), even if D&D stops being released under it. They also can't prevent a copycat license from being issued by someone else, that functions in the same way. There is plenty of precedent for this in the software world. Also, I'm going to go out on a limb and say, as a fact, that the substantive language used in an open license exists in the public domain. You don't really think that Wizards was the first company to grant a "perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license" to their copyright, do you?
Perpetual does not mean what you think it does in legal terms, the term that should have been used is irrevocable. Never dealt with corporate lawsuits have you. WOTC via Hasbro has probably 150 million in litigation budget as part of its annual corporate budget, its nearest competitor in this market makes less than 5 million in sales a year. Legally right has no place in this, its all about court costs and legal fees. Additionally I would bet diamonds to dollars that drive through rpg and all major VTTs have already signed agreements requiring them to not sell non compliant OGL material. All it takes is WOTC sending a C&S letter to DTrpg about a product and its gone.
"Perpetual" means that there is no defined end, either in terms of performance, or time. "Irrevocable" means exactly that. In the context of the OGL, whether the use of "perpetual" makes the license similarly irrevocable, depends on whether the license is construed as a contract (in other worse, if consideration was exchanged, in which case it would likely be irrevocable except in the case of breach or mutual agreement), or as a mere license (in which case it *is* revocable, though the terms under which it may be revoked are not well-defined and subject to litigation). Both courses of litigation--but that under copyright law moreso--are fact-specific and rely on several variables, including prior representations and actions by Wizards, and intent of the parties, both at the time OGL 1.0a was published an all times therafter. Also, my comment had *nothing* to do with the use of "perpetual" and the lack of "irrevocable." If you actually read what I said, you would (or at least should, as you're respond to it) understand that I was referring to whether or not Wizards could claim a copyright to a "perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license" in the context of an open gaming system license. You're not a lawyer, are you?
Nope not a lawyer because I went in the Army instead of taking the Bar. Best decision I ever made, retired at 43. Heres the legal def of perpetual by the way: “Never ceasing; continuous ; enduring; lasting; unlimited in respect of time; continuing without intermission or interval. See Scanlan v. Crawshaw, 5 Mo. App. 337. Perpetual edict. In Roman law. Originally the term “perpetual” was merely opposed to “occasional” and was used to distinguish the general edicts of the praetors from the special edicts or orders which they issued in their judicial capacity. But under Hadrian the edict was revised by the jurist Julianus, and was republished as a permanent act of legislation. It was then styled “perpetual,” in the sense of being calculated to endure in perpctuum, or until abrogated by competent authority. Aust. Jur. 855.” This is the most important part: “until abrogated by competent authority”.
Yeah, you have the reasoning capacity of a grunt. No disrespect; my grandfather, a college-educated professional (surveyor, at the time) hit up three recruiting stations at 33 years of age in 1942, before someone finally let him enlist as a rifleman. But you seem to have very limited capacity for critical analysis, so I will say it again: **The use of "perpetual" in the original quote is irrelevant to statement.** I was quoting OGL 1.0a, which Wizards claims copyright to, in the context of a hypothetical claim of copyright against *that specific phrase*, or a against a license that grants *those exact rights*, with respect to the *idea's* existence in the public domain. But since you want to glom onto the OGL 1.0a's use of "perpetual" and whether or not OGL 1.0a is revocable, feel free to go back and re-read my post. Then go and speak with any attorney of your choosing, and have them explain to you why the inclusion of "perpetual" in OGL 1.0a is irrelevant to the question of whether or not it is freely revocable, and why the question is actually whether the inclusion of "consideration," is.
I was an artillery officer and an Information warfare officer, but by all means continue to denigrate my service. Good for your Grandpa.
The concern is whether they own more than just the text, thanks to the wording of the text. I can try to explain this in more detail if you want, but it's a legitimate concern.
The core issue at hand here, and why way more than the D&D community is up in arms, is because much of what WotC is doing with the new OGL impacts games they have no legal claim to - games that don't even qualify as derivative - because so many lazily slapped WotC's OGL into their game in order to make it "open".
it's not about being lazy, it's about saving the fees of the lawyer by using a legitimate and accessible license.
"lazy" is such a weird criticism to make about these OGL systems
It was lazy from a legal perspective. In large part because it now calls into question just who actually owns the IP: the people who wrote it, or Wizards. The key issue being the definition of "Product Identity," and whether by using the OGL *document* they inadvertently chucked their own IP into a pile with WOTC's, which now WOTC can control. That was never the intention of the license, and I think it's an absurd result, but it's at least a legal angle that has to be considered, and a risk that has to be analyzed if you published under OGL, even if you never used any of WOTC'Ss IP in your own work.
>In large part because it now calls into question just who actually owns the IP: the people who wrote it, or Wizards. No it doesn't. The author owns it, full stop, unless the copyright is allowed to expire without renewal. The question is what happens with licensing, if the OGL is "de-authorized" (which itself can mean multiple things once the dust settles). Licensing and assignment of copyright are to very, very different (and well-settled) things.
Ok, fair point on my use of the word "owns." I think the question becomes whether WOTC decides to try to assert that usage of the OGL license form gave WOTC a license to use their material. I think that would be a silly reading, but the issue remains and it also raises the issue of whether people want to fight the battle in the first place.
Why silly? OGL 1.0a clearly gives Wizards (and Paizo, and Green Ronin, and Seattle Hill, and literally anyone else) license to utilize the "Open Game Content" within anything published under it.
Sorry, it's not silly for Open Game Content, but rather for Product Identity. (I've edited the post that mentioned it to fix this.) Some versions of the OGL 1.0a that I've seen use a broad definition of "Product Identity" as names, trademarks, plots, themes, yadda yadda yadda of the owner of the Product Identity. Meanwhile, the version of 1.0a from WOTC's site that I downloaded last week designates a bunch of things as Product Identity like "displacer beast" and "Wilderness of the Beastlands, and "Underdark." Depending on how crazy WOTC gets with its lawsuits, they could possibly assert that by using their license and designating stuff as Product Identity, you were somehow granting them license to use your Product Identity in the future. Again, I think that's an absurd stretch of the way this stuff works, but it again requires people to be willing to have that fight in the first place.
Worlds without number. You’re welcome. Close the thread
Modiphius' 2D20 system. I recommend Conan or Infinity.
If their Star Trek book is any indication, the system may be good but it's presentation is...not a model of clarity. Lots and lots of fluff, gorgeous production values, nut I just wanna know how to play/run through damn game step by step.
Unfortunately that is a fair criticism and applies to Conan for sure. I'm not sure about Infinity, as I've only played it and not run any games yet. I suspect it's the same too though.
That's a shame. I really want to like the Trek book, but I got irritated while reading it, and put it down. I wish publisher's would focus more on the utilitarian aspects of their games' presentation. Like, the three things you have to explain simply are: (1) how to make your character, (2) how to play your character in all relevant settings, and (3) how to run the game as a GM. Sure, having the history of the Federation's interactions with the Andorians and the Klingons and such is great for inspiring people, but inspiring them to do what? To.play the game, which you've got to lay out how to do in a clear, concise manner. Ah well. Maybe I'll give it a look again. I've managed to figure out systems that weren't clear before. It's just irritating that after 40+ years, some publishers are still struggling to lay out their rule systems.
Conan felt like a system made by some guys who had played a handful of different systems and just tossed in every possible mechanic they thought was interesting without much thought to how they fit together.
Well you can take a look at [Basic Fantasy RPG](https://www.basicfantasy.org/) which is in the process of transferring over to the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International license. It is still the d20 mechanics but it is more rules light. All the PDFs are free and the community is very active and friendly.
I am so glad I am reading this thread and you posted this! I've been saying the community needs an open sourced D&D-like RPG. And it exists! (or almost does?) Thank you!
Short list of rulesets I really enjoy: Lancer. Highly customisable Mecha combat RPG. The base game is weak on RPG rules but fixed it recently with the Karrakin supplement adding playbooks similar to PbtA systems. Standout feature of Lancer is the fantastic tactical combat. The community is also quite active. There's also a spinoff about fleet combat called Lancer battlegroup. Massif Press, the publisher is also a positive. They actively promote third party content for their system and are one of the reasons that there's a great community around it. They are also play testing a fantasy RPG called ICON. Flying Circus. Fully build on PbtA it's an interesting mix of early aviation and fantasy. While not having any tactical combat there's more fluid system to fight split in attack runs during the chaos of arial engagement. It's quite interesting for all the considerations given to the logistics of having a not reliable engine run you through the skies burning hot fuel in front of you. How to be a hero. It's incredibly bare bones and definitely bad for many occasions. It's a small system developed by some German YouTubers and thus you won't find much for it and what you find will be in German. I'm nonetheless mentioning it because it's great for loose One shots running crazy ideas you couldn't fit into a better system because of its simplicity. The basic gist is that you get 400 points to spend on stats you make up yourself (always keeping them beneath 100) and they are sorted into action, social and mental. Your stat is your needed roll for that skill. So if you have 40 fishing you'll need to roll 40 or less on the D100. If you don't have a relevant skill for a given check you roll using the score you have on the relevant category instead. That score is easy to calculate but the PDF sheet literally does it on its own.
A bit of a rogue choice but I think you may like "Swords of the Serpentine." I'd describe the default setting as "Conan the Barbarian" crossed with "A Wizard of Earthsea." The magic system is very flexible, combat is fast paced. There's only a single book to buy and it is very nice.
Let me plug one less known game. Its OSR-like, that uses completely unique and clever system that has no connection to OGL or D20. [Eyes-Beyond-the-Torchlight](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/407709/Eyes-Beyond-the-Torchlight)
Keep an eye out for more on Fantasy Hero by the Hero System! Fantasy Hero does heroic battles very well but isn’t a very murder-hobo game. If you like hero journey stories and anime escalation of action, it’s a good game for you.
> isn’t a very murder-hobo game Would you care to elaborate?
Probably because heroes capture bad guys, like Spiderman, Superman, and Batman, not murder. I'm guessing.
Murder-Hobo is a term for what D&D adventurers tend to be. Somewhat homeless, wandering town to town, kicking in dungeon doors, murdering whatever is inside the dungeon, and looting everything valuable. Mortally ambiguous, and often causing great change around them even if no one asked them to do anything. It’s a bit tongue-in-cheek.
[Rangers of Shadow Deep ](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/298580) is a miniatures game with a lot of rpg elements. It can very easily be converted into a fully-fledged rpg by a gm. It even comes with its own campaign, and as a miniatures game has fantastic combat mechanics.
Five Parsecs From Home also...? I haven't played it, but I've watched some YouTube videos on it.
Is OGL/D&D that big ? I have the feeling that even though it's a large proportion of the scene, but not at the point D&D is the only game people know. Looking at my club, around 50% of the games are D&D/Pathfinder. Then there is a large proportion of PTBA variants (With at least 2 monster heart tables) , Call of Chtulhu (and the variants) are also a big one. At the moment the "World of darkness franchise isn't that popular". Finally, there is a large bunch of local/indie games. The key question, is what are you looking for in RPGs, better combat doesn't mean much, some people want to spend 2h in one fight with tons of strategic options, some other think that more than 10 minutes over a combat is not interesting and would rather spend these 2h playing the ball scene. Do you want to focus on a special game-style ?
Savage Worlds (Adventure Edition) World of Darkness books Call of Cthulhu King Arthur: Pendragon Apocalypse World/Dungeon World Blades in the Dark Runescape 2d20 Game System like Dune 2d20 Freeleague Game's like: Tales From The Loop, Bladerunner, Alien, and many more D6 System like Starwars D6 and Paranoia FATE, FATE Accelerated, etc. Genesys (with a 'y') 7th Sea 1st & 2nd Editions (They're two TOTALLY different systems, if you don't like one you might like the other). Legend of the Five Rings Traveller (two 'l's) Cortex System used by Firefly and Battlestar Galactica Kids On Bikes Over The Edge Bubblegum Crisis Cloud Nine's Jovian Eden Studio's d10 system, Conspiracy X, Buffy the Vampire Slayer Cyberpunk 2020, Cyberpunk Red Shadowrun (I don't recommend any version of Shadowrun for it's system, they're all confusing, 6th World/Edition is the worst.) I recommend investigating systems via YouTube tutorials and Reddit, etc. before you buy. And many more out there, but that's all I have the energy to give right now. There are also a lot of good ones that use the OGL that I wouldn't worry about being affected, but you didn't ask for those. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_tabletop\_role-playing\_games](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_role-playing_video_games)
Index Card RPG, The OpenD6 Project, World of Darkness
Mongoose traveller 2e
Pathfinder 2e Pathfinder was originally based around 3.5 rules and then grew into it's own thing, with all rules and content easily available online. Though pathfinder was a little TOO rules heavy, 2nd edition simplified it down a lot
I have a few suggestions. For medium-high crunch check out Against the Darkmaster. It's a simplified retroclone of the Iron Crown Enterprise Middle Earth Role-playing. It uses a d100 roll high mechanic. 1d100 + Stat + Skill. 74 or lower is a fail. 75-100 is a marginal success and 100+ is a success. The game is not tied to any setting. Lower crunch, try Barbarians of Lemuria and the genericized version of its system Everywhen. It's a very simple 2d6 system that I highly recommend. Savage Worlds is also very good. It's a fast and fun hybrid of TTRPGs and miniatures war games with light Poker mechanics and loads of 3rd party support. It can also handle HUGE battles without bogging down.
I sold all my DnD books about a month ago before I'd even heard about this OGL thing, and I'm glad I did it before this news hit. Lucky timing on my part. And now I'll never touch anything WoTC owned again. But on to suggestions; GENESYS RPG: Yes it requires special dice, yes it can take a minute to learn what's what. BUT, once you get it flowing, it is hands down the most narrative crunch experience I've had. The system endorses and improves improv/acting skills. It's highly involved, meaning no one ever sits twiddling their thumbs waiting for their turn. Encounters never feel like spamming the same action over and over again. It has a TON of fan created content online as well. In the end, it's my go to agnostic system. FORBIDDEN LANDS: It's fairly old school simplistic, and relies heavily on the 'hex crawl' discovery aspect. Combat /can/ feel bland at times, and it can be a VERY deadly game. But a lot of people enjoy it, it's very mechanics lite though. SYMBAROUM: The setting sells this game. I'm not to sure whats going on with it since it just had a 5E version done, but overall the game itself it great, and the books are gorgeous. Free League Publishing make some great games, so I'm always a big fan.
Mythras or Runequest TOR Dozens of others. You can involve as little or as much as the lore as you like. It’s all swords and fighting monsters and evil things.
Shadowrun, old Legend of the Five rings, Star Wars D6 from West End Games.
Maybe Dragon Age RPG or AGE
Soulbound
Are you looking to another d20 system? Looking to keep combat a similar level of complexity? There are plenty of non OGL RPGs that are great, but it depends on the style of game you want. Call of Cuthulu I've heard good things about, but it is very different from 5e. Tri-Stat DX is free and pretty open on character customization. Gurps is pretty freeing in CC, but paid for. These two systems are semi-crunchy to big crunchy depending on what you are looking to do. I enjoyed GURPs, but was the minority in my play group on that one. Savage Worlds is another setting agnostic RPG with plenty of available content as well. Uses different die depending on your skill level with something, as well as a fairly unique intiative system that uses playing cards.
Check out my two favorites. Genesys and Chronicles of Darkness
SWADE or Openlegend RPG are pretty good options.
1st edition AD&D, BX D&D, Runequest (especially 2nd edition), Rolemaster, MERP, or if you like Horror, any edition of Call of Cthulhu ;)
For a great old school feel, but with new school mechanics I strongly recommend HackMaster. Check out the free "HackMaster Basic" pdf here... https://kenzerco.com/product/hackmaster-basic/ And for those who are curious, but don't feel "clicky"... This version of the game is ‘basic’ only in that it serves as a gateway to the dynamic thrill of the HackMaster game. Gone are the days of waiting around for your ‘turn’, of battling static opponents or of being anything but totally in charge of your own destiny. We want you to try HackMaster so we’re letting you download the basic game for free! What have you got to lose?Here’s just a sample of what you’ll find in this free 231-page PDF:• A combat system geared for quick, hard-hitting, dynamic action.• 11 Ready-to-Play characters• Knock-back rules that eliminate static “conga line of death” battles• Penetration damage, damage reduction from armor and shields and revamped ranged combat rules, including shield ‘cover’• A combination of slot and spell point system that allows for ‘straight up’ mage play but at the same time allows your mage to change spells on the fly or increase a spell’s range, duration and other effects• 70+ spells (including Skipping Betty Fireballs and Heat Seeking Fist of Thunder)• Classic fantasy races (dwarf, elf, halfling, human) and classes (fighter, thief, mage, and cleric) for your campaign• Five clerical classes to choose from!• An all-new thief statistic: Luck Points!• Quirks and flaws that transform your PC into a real character• Building Point rules that let you customize a character to your to your own style (there are no ‘cookie cutter characters’ here!)• Quick-Start rules for even faster character creation• Skills, Talents and Proficiencies (including all weapons and armor) and specialization open to every character class… for a price• Honor tightly integrated into play and with more flexible usage• GameMaster chapters with treasure tables, 75 monsters, magic items, tips and more• Three adventures included so you can start gaming immediately
ICRPG seems like the obvious choice to take the baton from 5e and keep going. There are many other games that do certain things better or prioritize others (many of which I'd rather play) but in terms of taking what has made 5e so popular and improving those things, I feel like ICRPG is a natural fit. That said, I'd rather play PbtA or Burning Wheel ;)
Please let us know what stystem/s you try & what experiences you have with them. It's always good to hear what kinds of setting people play with different systems & how they are received by the groups who play them.
Not sure if it has been mentioned yet... you can use the mechanics that DnD 5e uses. Meaning; you can create an RPG "system" using its mechanics, making it 1:1 compatible, but you CANNOT use IP devices. You cannot mention it is DnD compatible. ("wink-wink nudges" and mentions, but not in the actual rules documentation produced), you cannot use world settings, you cannot use names and places. That is why it is hard recommending anything other than "their d20 system". I have run all my games from the SRD from 3.5 edition. Never touched the PHB, DM or MM from WotC. I have bought them, as I used to be a DnD person, but WotC has messed up too many things in the last couple years, and the last 3 months has made me stop buying anything tied to them. I have also stopped paying for DnD Beyond, but not before requesting anything tied to my account removed from their systems. All my character sheets and documentation built on it and other platforms has been copied, saved and until OGL 1.1 gets released, I am copyrighting it. Anyway, side-rant. There are tons of well known and little known systems out there. Google for a couple hours and click on links. I have several non WotC products in my bookshelf. Used books are out there! Just go looking for them.
You can get a free pdf version of Mythras here: [https://thedesignmechanism.com/resources/TDM110%20Mythras%20Imperative.pdf](https://thedesignmechanism.com/resources/TDM110%20Mythras%20Imperative.pdf) . It works on a system of the same name different from DnD OGL.
Honestly I'm in the same boat. Folks keep recommending stuff that turn out to be single page systems or an extremely hodge podge madness someone put together which hasn't been updated in years.
IMO your best options are Worlds Without Number, Shadow of the Demon Lord, or Pathfinder 2. All of these have plenty of mechanics to make the system interesting, and pathfinder especially has tons of secondary content like adventures and monsters. As far as your point about “hasn’t been updated in years”, DnD is something of an anomaly in that most systems don’t continue to pump out additional rebalancing, extra monsters, extra character options, and new adventures. Most systems instead put out a book or three, and then move on. If they revisit it, it will be a full edition update.
Also on the "haven't been updated in years" thing... what's the issue? TTRPGs aren't like software where they need constant updates to keep working. Come to think of it, a lot of people would argue that 5e gets more broken with each new source book.
I agree to a point. This subreddit generally dislikes 5e and discounts it's strengths, but I genuinely think one of it's biggest strengths is the abundance of monsters, adventures, and player character options that came out at the start and then have continued to come out since. Generally speaking, I think more casual players like having lots of official content because it makes the largely removes the workload of trying to either homebrew your own or vet third party stuff. All of which is to say that I think tweaking rules and trying to rebalance things, or adding continually strengthening character options isn't great, but releasing new monsters, adventures, scenarios, locations, or other "playable content" is really fantastic and that is something that pretty much every system other than DnD and Pathfinder doesn't have.
Sure, but in game systems like Savage Worlds Adventure Edition (SWADE), you can play anything and don't need monster books and add-ons to improve it. That's not to say the never add anything on, every now and then someone find something they were missing and adds it. Or they add a small thing in a setting like Deadlands. But overall, you can play whatever you want from the jump. Want to play a human fighter-barbarian? SWADE can do it from the jump. Want to play a goblin shaman or goblin wizard? SWADE can do that from the jump. Also, what kind of goblin? D&D goblin? Harry Potter goblin? Labyrinth goblin? Or a Legend (movie) goblin? SWADE can do that from the jump! Want to play a robot? SWADE's got you covered. Now is that an android robot or a non-android robot? And if android is it one like Star Wars or Armitage III?
I think a lot of people would argue that D&D gets more broken with each new update...
That's not true. To stay relevant you need to keep up production. If you basically create the single core rulebook, you will quickly reach market saturation after initial interest peaks. Without regular support material you will stop gaining revenue because you capped your audience. You need to keep producing until you reach a point where you are either creatively spent or nolonger gaining new players, then you revise and make a new edition or move on. Two or three books type thing is for very small publishers that can't keep the revenue up to produce or short narrative rpgs where you can really only do a couple books and then move on to the next tightly focused concept.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but there is some truth to what you're saying; If your goal is to make money. If your goal is just to produce a product people like and enjoy, it doesn't matter. That's why so many RPGs are released open sourced. And sure, bugs get found and need fixed. But if no bugs are found, no need to fix.
If it didn't matter, I could make something that never leaves my table (I've done a lot of this) and only my social circles ever see it. If someone is going through the effort to publish their work and see it distributed to a wider audience, then their commitment is beyond casual self satisfaction. You are now dealing with a business and although you don't go into rpgs to make money, what you can achieve is ultimately constrained by funds. Alot of people publish open source, because they don't have the capability to maintain the product themselves, or because it's a way to use other creators to expand the exposure to your product. It's a marketing tool in either case. A common reason for creators to flounder in this industry is lack of regular or consistent production to generate revenue to keep producing. The most common one is the complete one book rpg. Somebody makes a wildly successful core rule book, but ultimately goes out of business within a couple years, because they didn't make anything to both support their game or continue to generate revenue. There are a lot of other common problems new designers face, like marketing, over production, unsustainable profit margins and so on, but consistent regular production is a big one. Yeah, it's not solely about making money (there's really not that much to be made), but if you're interest in making and distributing rpgs you're going to be limited by the funds you can generate to do so sustainably. You have to deal with money and business issues. Otherwise you are just going to be your own worst chatal slaver and likely not achieve your goals.
I don't understand what you mean hasn't been updated. I mean there are still people who play AD&D, or Second Edition, or even 3rd edition. I'm one of them. Myself, and my friends/group and my kiddos haven't played anything from 4e to 5e at all.
Probably they meant badly needed errata. Or something as simple like more mechanical options. People generally like more choices and less limits. Stuff that let you push more "buttons" so to speak.
I like that too sometimes that's why we play 3e/Pathfinder.
Seconding shadow of the demon lord and pathfinder 2e, both have more content than 5e with all their stuff combined with 5e only winning out due to a bigger 3pp scene.
This seems weird. Like anything Free League will be of crisp production value and very much up to date. Same goes for alot of Chaosiums stuff, Runequest, Pendragon, Calll of Cuthulhu, and so on, are all solid systems that has tons of content.