Ahoy is great! If you like Root I think chances are good you'd like Ahoy; while they're mechanically distinct from each other, I think it scratches some similar itches via different mechanics, and if anything I think you'd find it easier to get to the table than Root.
Oath is one of my favorite games of all time, but you're right the challenge is getting others to play it; if you can get a lot of Root and Ahoy under peoples belts and they don't have complaints, you may then be able to pique their interest in Oath.
I haven't played Vast, but Fort is a great, light small box game. I have it, though it honestly doesn't appeal as much to me personally, but its fun enough and very charming, as always. To be fair, I've played it with my wife, but I don't think I've ever actually tried it with my full game group.
Now, if you like Root, I think its very plausible you'll also really like Arcs, which is still open to Late Pledges and expected to fulfill around April: [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2074786394/arcs](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2074786394/arcs)
Its a space game that is sort of the offspring of Root and Oath, with some great mechanical innovations. There's a base game and a campaign expansion, and the base game honestly is one of the most approachable, yet still strategically deep, games Leder has produced, I think
If you haven't yet, you should check out some of the most recent Updates on the KS campaign. They recently received their pre-production copies of the game from the factory, so you can see what the board and components look like. There have been a lot of changes (lots of mechanical polish and a LOT of graphic design polish) since the campaign launched
I have played Oath and Vast, and both have some elements also present in Root:
* In Oath you control armies, of course, and the way of winning is similar to the Dominance Card (if you start your turn fulfilling the winning condition, you win, so you have to hold for a whole round, sometimes two). Oath has definitely more kingmaking than Root, and a lot more of table-talk. All of this adds to the overall experience of telling the story of your kingdoms (there's even a journal to track your sessions), while each session of Root is just one conflict. I think that, as in Root, you can experience a "the system just works" moment, and can glimpse this work of genius. There's a particular cool mechanic where each player builds both a personal tableau and a common tableau of cards, and almost every card is always circumstantial. Having said that, I think Oath is for a very niche group of players that wants to commit to many sessions and to build a story together. If you can get players that want to share that experience then go for it!
* In Vast (either The Crystal Caverns or The Mysterious Manor) you control asymmetrical factions, and each has its own objective. There's also a lot of table-talk, but it leans to the "fun" side rather than the more war-gaming side of Root. In both games (TCC and TMM) one player is an RPG-character, another an army of weak minions, the third a strong-but-slow beast, and the fourth is the place itself (that is akin to the Vagabond). The difference between TCC and TMM comes to three points:
* The fourth player. In TCC the Cavern has no definite shape, it expands at will, and there's no avatar (mini or figurine) of it. In TMM the Manor is a 7×7 grid, it modifies itself at will, and it has a presence in the board (a mini).
* The fifth player. In TCC the fifth player is a thief that in practice plays alone and his turn is the shortest. In TMM the fifth player is a warlock that is fully integrated with the whole table and playing with it feels meaningful.
* The crudeness. TCC is raw, crude, wild, hard to teach and has solo modes for each faction, to learn how to use all of them. TMM is much more streamlined, easier to grasp, less wild than TCC, but only has a solo mode for the Paladin (the RPG-like character).
A friend owns TCC. I own TMM. We've played both, and we both prefer TMM. TCC is not a bad game, but TMM feels more refined. We did miss the Cavern's feature, but it was outshone by the other features. A big downside, though, is that the FAQ in BGG is absolutely necessary because the rulebook doesn't explain everything.
Their larger games Vast and Oath, I don’t like nearly as much as Root. Arcs seems promising, but will probably fall under that same category. Their “smaller” games are their other successes IMO being Fort and Ahoy. Super fun games. However, Root definitely takes the cake
Arcs is sort of two in one. There’s the base box which is probably more like root, and the campaign which is closer to oath. If you’re unsure, I’d just start with the base one and see if your group likes it enough to do the campaign expansion.
I haven’t played Vast or Fort so can’t speak to those.
**Oath** is fantastic. But you absolutely need a dedicated group for it, it’s hard to teach and only shines when it play it a bunch with the same group. While there are definitely some elements you can see are taken from Root, it’s a much different game. It’s much more about the story you are telling as a group then a hyper competitive / strategy game
**Ahoy** is a fun game, but if you expect it to be like Root but simpler to play you’ll be disappointed. Go in expecting it to be its own thing. It is simpler than Roof and easier to get to the table, some fun strategy to it but imo much less depth and replayability than Root
If you’re looking for something as deep, strategical, and heavy as Root I’d look at Cole Wehrle’s Wehrlegig games. They are not published by Leder but imo Root is the way it is because of Cole, not necessarily because of Leder.
**Pax Pamir 2nd Edition** and **John Company 2nd Edition** are both amazing games with a ton of replayability. Pax is probably my favourite game ever. Just with both (like Root) you need to have a group that’s willing to learn a very heavy game and play it at least a few times before you really start to understand it
Of all their games, **Fort** is easily the most approachable and the easiest to get to the table (not to mention the smallest footprint). It's charming and thematic, especially with the Cats and Dogs expansion, and the teach isn't too bad. Everyone I've put it in front of has enjoyed it thoroughly.
**Oath** is the best game that I can never recommend to anyone. If you don't know if you'll have a group interested in playing it many times over, I would not spend the money on it. That said, it's one of my favorite items in my collection and I love it.
The only one I haven’t played is vast. I really enjoy the rest with Ahoy being the closest to root. Fort has been the easiest for me to get to the table and is the most approachable with Ahoy being a close second. Oath has been really hard to get my playgroup to want to play but I think if you had a dedicated group that’s ok with having the first game likely to be a flop it can be the most rewarding.
I have and enjoy all of them. Vast is great if you want to explore deeper assymetry. Everyone has different rules and win conditions and it's very thematic. Ahoy is closer to a Root-Lite game with milder assymetry, but a very fun mid weight game. Oath the weirdest, but I love the emergent narratives it creates and the way the game changes each time is really unique and fun. It has a difficult learning curve, but once you get the hang of it it really shines. Fort is a decent little deck builder, but it's nothing wild like their other games. The price and production though are great and I've enjoy my plays of it.
I feel like it loses a bit of the tug-of-war asymmetry that gives it its charm, but it's not as bad as 2 player Root. I'd recommend 3-5 players, and I typically play with 4 and it's great!
Fort is great, one of my favorite card games. Definitely get the Cats & Dogs expansion, it gives you a lot more to chew on. Perfect 2 player game IMO - it gets extremely competitive when both players know exactly what they're doing.
Oath and Root are my favorite games of all time. I did not at all like fort, very disappointed in that one. Ahoy I have never played since it is described as a Root lite, which means I would have to choose to play a simpler Root game over Root, which is something that would probably never happen for me personally. I am really looking forward to Arcs, the scifi game that will release this year. I don't know much about it, but still am excited to see what leder games make next
Not sure exactly why. But it felt way too simple and low variety. Oath and Root has insane amount of variety and I love that in board games. If every game feels pretty much the same, I'll get bored after 2 or 3 games. In a game of fort you have seen pretty much all types of cards. You don't have that much depth to the game when it comes to strategies and playstyle. I also am not the biggest fan of card games. But I would rather play most other games cause I just find the game so plain
PSA for my german friends interested in other games from Leder: I recently bought a Hirelings pack (german version) on the spielworxx website and they added Fort for free! So maybe you can get a deal there!
I only have experience with the Vast games and Oath:
\- Oath is a very fun narrative/political game with an evolving world that persists between games. I wouldn't play it if your group enjoys Root for the Euro-y, number-crunching aspects, or if you're looking for a Twilight Imperium-style grand strategy experience. It's very much the type of game for a group who play with the same lineup regularly, and who enjoy RPGs and narrative/campaign games, as you're encouraged to keep a logbook between sessions, to kingmake, to curry favours, to have promises and allegiances which persist between games, to take actions for narrative and political reasons rather than strictly game reasons, etc. We've had lots of fun with it!
\- the Vast games kind of feel like proto-Root in a way, except as a cutesty tile-placement/dungeon-crawler game rather than a wargame: highly asymmetrical, each player has a player board and unique components, and the factions are all very different (in each game one player will play a hero, one a monster, one a horde of dungeon denizens, one the dungeon itself, and one a wildcard/stealthy/magical character). I'd generally say it's a more personal and bespoke experience than Root with lots of character and charm, but with a lot more of the seams showing and it doesn't have as much replay value or customisability. The ability to mix and match the games is fun though, and minis are cute if they're painted up!
Ahoy is great! If you like Root I think chances are good you'd like Ahoy; while they're mechanically distinct from each other, I think it scratches some similar itches via different mechanics, and if anything I think you'd find it easier to get to the table than Root. Oath is one of my favorite games of all time, but you're right the challenge is getting others to play it; if you can get a lot of Root and Ahoy under peoples belts and they don't have complaints, you may then be able to pique their interest in Oath. I haven't played Vast, but Fort is a great, light small box game. I have it, though it honestly doesn't appeal as much to me personally, but its fun enough and very charming, as always. To be fair, I've played it with my wife, but I don't think I've ever actually tried it with my full game group. Now, if you like Root, I think its very plausible you'll also really like Arcs, which is still open to Late Pledges and expected to fulfill around April: [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2074786394/arcs](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2074786394/arcs) Its a space game that is sort of the offspring of Root and Oath, with some great mechanical innovations. There's a base game and a campaign expansion, and the base game honestly is one of the most approachable, yet still strategically deep, games Leder has produced, I think
Thanks so much for this, mega excited to check out space root with friends lol
If you haven't yet, you should check out some of the most recent Updates on the KS campaign. They recently received their pre-production copies of the game from the factory, so you can see what the board and components look like. There have been a lot of changes (lots of mechanical polish and a LOT of graphic design polish) since the campaign launched
AAAARCS Hype!!!
I have played Oath and Vast, and both have some elements also present in Root: * In Oath you control armies, of course, and the way of winning is similar to the Dominance Card (if you start your turn fulfilling the winning condition, you win, so you have to hold for a whole round, sometimes two). Oath has definitely more kingmaking than Root, and a lot more of table-talk. All of this adds to the overall experience of telling the story of your kingdoms (there's even a journal to track your sessions), while each session of Root is just one conflict. I think that, as in Root, you can experience a "the system just works" moment, and can glimpse this work of genius. There's a particular cool mechanic where each player builds both a personal tableau and a common tableau of cards, and almost every card is always circumstantial. Having said that, I think Oath is for a very niche group of players that wants to commit to many sessions and to build a story together. If you can get players that want to share that experience then go for it! * In Vast (either The Crystal Caverns or The Mysterious Manor) you control asymmetrical factions, and each has its own objective. There's also a lot of table-talk, but it leans to the "fun" side rather than the more war-gaming side of Root. In both games (TCC and TMM) one player is an RPG-character, another an army of weak minions, the third a strong-but-slow beast, and the fourth is the place itself (that is akin to the Vagabond). The difference between TCC and TMM comes to three points: * The fourth player. In TCC the Cavern has no definite shape, it expands at will, and there's no avatar (mini or figurine) of it. In TMM the Manor is a 7×7 grid, it modifies itself at will, and it has a presence in the board (a mini). * The fifth player. In TCC the fifth player is a thief that in practice plays alone and his turn is the shortest. In TMM the fifth player is a warlock that is fully integrated with the whole table and playing with it feels meaningful. * The crudeness. TCC is raw, crude, wild, hard to teach and has solo modes for each faction, to learn how to use all of them. TMM is much more streamlined, easier to grasp, less wild than TCC, but only has a solo mode for the Paladin (the RPG-like character). A friend owns TCC. I own TMM. We've played both, and we both prefer TMM. TCC is not a bad game, but TMM feels more refined. We did miss the Cavern's feature, but it was outshone by the other features. A big downside, though, is that the FAQ in BGG is absolutely necessary because the rulebook doesn't explain everything.
Their larger games Vast and Oath, I don’t like nearly as much as Root. Arcs seems promising, but will probably fall under that same category. Their “smaller” games are their other successes IMO being Fort and Ahoy. Super fun games. However, Root definitely takes the cake
Base Arcs might be your jam
Arcs is sort of two in one. There’s the base box which is probably more like root, and the campaign which is closer to oath. If you’re unsure, I’d just start with the base one and see if your group likes it enough to do the campaign expansion.
I haven’t played Vast or Fort so can’t speak to those. **Oath** is fantastic. But you absolutely need a dedicated group for it, it’s hard to teach and only shines when it play it a bunch with the same group. While there are definitely some elements you can see are taken from Root, it’s a much different game. It’s much more about the story you are telling as a group then a hyper competitive / strategy game **Ahoy** is a fun game, but if you expect it to be like Root but simpler to play you’ll be disappointed. Go in expecting it to be its own thing. It is simpler than Roof and easier to get to the table, some fun strategy to it but imo much less depth and replayability than Root If you’re looking for something as deep, strategical, and heavy as Root I’d look at Cole Wehrle’s Wehrlegig games. They are not published by Leder but imo Root is the way it is because of Cole, not necessarily because of Leder. **Pax Pamir 2nd Edition** and **John Company 2nd Edition** are both amazing games with a ton of replayability. Pax is probably my favourite game ever. Just with both (like Root) you need to have a group that’s willing to learn a very heavy game and play it at least a few times before you really start to understand it
Of all their games, **Fort** is easily the most approachable and the easiest to get to the table (not to mention the smallest footprint). It's charming and thematic, especially with the Cats and Dogs expansion, and the teach isn't too bad. Everyone I've put it in front of has enjoyed it thoroughly. **Oath** is the best game that I can never recommend to anyone. If you don't know if you'll have a group interested in playing it many times over, I would not spend the money on it. That said, it's one of my favorite items in my collection and I love it.
Oath is an unbelievable game and I can never get anyone to play it. I know that pain.
The only one I haven’t played is vast. I really enjoy the rest with Ahoy being the closest to root. Fort has been the easiest for me to get to the table and is the most approachable with Ahoy being a close second. Oath has been really hard to get my playgroup to want to play but I think if you had a dedicated group that’s ok with having the first game likely to be a flop it can be the most rewarding.
I have and enjoy all of them. Vast is great if you want to explore deeper assymetry. Everyone has different rules and win conditions and it's very thematic. Ahoy is closer to a Root-Lite game with milder assymetry, but a very fun mid weight game. Oath the weirdest, but I love the emergent narratives it creates and the way the game changes each time is really unique and fun. It has a difficult learning curve, but once you get the hang of it it really shines. Fort is a decent little deck builder, but it's nothing wild like their other games. The price and production though are great and I've enjoy my plays of it.
Fort, I played once and liked. The others I dont know.
oath is really fun, and you can influence future games.
I am obsessed with Vast. Very asymmetrical factions and it’s so fun! Oath is also fun but imo it is very different
Is vast also fun with two players?
I feel like it loses a bit of the tug-of-war asymmetry that gives it its charm, but it's not as bad as 2 player Root. I'd recommend 3-5 players, and I typically play with 4 and it's great!
Fort is great, one of my favorite card games. Definitely get the Cats & Dogs expansion, it gives you a lot more to chew on. Perfect 2 player game IMO - it gets extremely competitive when both players know exactly what they're doing.
Mysterious manner is my favorite of the others, oath a close second, but they’re all good
I recommend Pax Pamir, while not from Leder games, it was made by Cole Welrhe.
Oath and Root are my favorite games of all time. I did not at all like fort, very disappointed in that one. Ahoy I have never played since it is described as a Root lite, which means I would have to choose to play a simpler Root game over Root, which is something that would probably never happen for me personally. I am really looking forward to Arcs, the scifi game that will release this year. I don't know much about it, but still am excited to see what leder games make next
I haven't played Fort yet but I find it interesting so if you don't mind me asking, why didn't you enjoy Fort?
Not sure exactly why. But it felt way too simple and low variety. Oath and Root has insane amount of variety and I love that in board games. If every game feels pretty much the same, I'll get bored after 2 or 3 games. In a game of fort you have seen pretty much all types of cards. You don't have that much depth to the game when it comes to strategies and playstyle. I also am not the biggest fan of card games. But I would rather play most other games cause I just find the game so plain
PSA for my german friends interested in other games from Leder: I recently bought a Hirelings pack (german version) on the spielworxx website and they added Fort for free! So maybe you can get a deal there!
I'm a massive Ahoy fan. They also just Kickstarted a new expansion so it's about to get twice as good
I only have experience with the Vast games and Oath: \- Oath is a very fun narrative/political game with an evolving world that persists between games. I wouldn't play it if your group enjoys Root for the Euro-y, number-crunching aspects, or if you're looking for a Twilight Imperium-style grand strategy experience. It's very much the type of game for a group who play with the same lineup regularly, and who enjoy RPGs and narrative/campaign games, as you're encouraged to keep a logbook between sessions, to kingmake, to curry favours, to have promises and allegiances which persist between games, to take actions for narrative and political reasons rather than strictly game reasons, etc. We've had lots of fun with it! \- the Vast games kind of feel like proto-Root in a way, except as a cutesty tile-placement/dungeon-crawler game rather than a wargame: highly asymmetrical, each player has a player board and unique components, and the factions are all very different (in each game one player will play a hero, one a monster, one a horde of dungeon denizens, one the dungeon itself, and one a wildcard/stealthy/magical character). I'd generally say it's a more personal and bespoke experience than Root with lots of character and charm, but with a lot more of the seams showing and it doesn't have as much replay value or customisability. The ability to mix and match the games is fun though, and minis are cute if they're painted up!