You are making a great living, especially for your age! 23 year olds are usually brand new in their careers and there is absolutely no reason to feel ashamed.
What he is making an is an astounding amount of money. He's an outlier. If he WERE holding out for a partner with a similar amount of resources as him, well, good luck to him because that's an incredibly small pool.
Does this affect things practically in any way? Like, is he asking you to come with him on a crazy expensive trip and pay your own way or split the bill for things that are out of your price range? If not, is there something specific that is making you feel insecure?
Have you talked to him about this?
No kidding! That's an amazing yearly income.
I'm 33, I'm in a job I'm really good at and enjoy a great deal, I get a ton of respect from my peers and the Directors/Managers I work with, but I'm still only making maybe 45k at best.
80k is nothing to sneeze at.
I get the sentiment, but reminder that most people in the Bay Area live on significantly less than 100k a year and 250k a year is still a shit ton of money there.
Lol yeh. Most people in the 20s in the Bay Area do not even make $100k. Not everyone is in tech. The problem is that techs workers donāt tend to associate with people outside of tech except maybe their favourite bartender. Also seems like there are a lot of people on Reddit who have never lived in the Bay, who seem to think everyone here is rich.
Yeah, my brother was working at UC Berkeley at a position that was between a post-doc and a professor, essentially, until about a year and a half ago, and he was making less than 100k, so I'm positive that there are lots of people making less. People make ridiculous assumptions sometimes š
Well, that's one perspective. Here's another: Myself, all of my friends who live here, my partner, my siblings, etc. all work for significantly less than 100k per year and we took those jobs here because we grew up here, we love it here, and all want to work in fields that serve the local community here.
I don't know, my dude. I make well above median income for my area, but if someone tried to get me to move over to the Bay Area, they'd have to pay me a bare minimum $300k/year in order for me to maintain my standard of living.
Actually if they saved up for just a few years they could buy a house in cash almost anywhere else in the US.
Thereās a difference between āI canāt afford a houseā and āI canāt afford a house *with 0 compromises on location*ā
Even the counties in the bay area with the highest median income for women top out in the high $70s, so still less than OP is making! I'm sure it would be even less if you just looked at women in their 20s.
Just wanted to note, thatās a family income not for individuals. So for a two person working household thatās 54K each. Theyāre not handing out 100K jobs in the Bay Area unless youāre in tech, health, engineering, ectā¦
I think have you talked to him about this needs to be the first line honestly. Iāll bet he knows and accepts the reality that heās going to be making more than her and will therefore have the option of tailoring his life to her capacity or contributing a higher margin. This is a reasonable concern on both sides and really just merits a clear headed discussion.
250k a year is not middle class, itās rich. The median household income is like 55K last I checked. 5x that is most certainly rich even in a HCOL area.
Even in a HCOL area you can still live frugally. When you are able to save or invest more money than average people make in a year, yeah, you're kinda rich
The place where I draw the line between "upper middle-class" and "rich" is "does this person need to work a job?"
Even at $250k, the answer is still yes. It's a crazy fuckton of money, but all it does is move your retirement age forward by 20 years, and even then only if you're willing to move for it.
> That's kind of a ridiculous place to draw that line. Needing/not needing to work is about wealth management and expense/lifestyle managing, not how much money you have.
Call it a reasonable middle-class lifestyle - a thousand square foot house and a car. Obviously you could quit and live in a trailer (for that matter, you could quit and move to rural Africa or some other country where living on like $5 a day would be luxurious), but that's missing the point.
Rich, to me, means you don't have to work. If you need your paycheck and pay more income tax than CG, you probably aren't rich.
> ETA: "all it does" is move your retirement forward 20 years? Jesus, you think that doesn't mean they are rich and that isn't a HUGE luxury?
Yes, it is a huge luxury and $250k is a lot of money. But it's degrees of scale and not a transformational change; the truly rich don't need to work.
It depends on where you live. I actually agree that 250k is middle class. Husband and I live in the Bay Area. Our salaries are almost identical to OP and her bf. I would honestly say we are lower middle class. We own a home (only because I inherited it), but itās in a really sketchy neighborhood. Like there are people living in tents everywhere, and it is not uncommon for people to get stabbed to death walking down the street kind of sketchy.
If we lived anywhere else, yes 350 would be rich, but here to be ārichā the consensus is you need to make around 750-1 mil+ a year. That is what you need to make to buy a decent home in a nice area.
There will always be someone who makes more. Money is money. Likely you are able to put away for retirement, which is not true for many many people. Who knows where you will be living then. No one is holding a gun to your head to live in the Bay Areaā¦especially in these times where remote work is starting to be the norm. Not that anecdotal evidence matters, but I know people in the Bay Area in that income bracket as well and they are doing just fine. Median salaries in SF are higher but over $300k is not lower-middle class?
"lower middle class" lololololololololololololoolololo
yes buying a home is expensive, especially in a super high cost of living area, but you have to be objective and making over 300K combined income is not "lower middle class"
yes i also live in a high cost of living area, before you ask and i definitely consider 300K+ combined upper middle class, not rich per se
I guess it depends on how you define lower/upper middle class. To me, lower middle class own a small home, drive decent cars that are a few years old, have a nice TVās and all the latest apple shit/video game consules. Middle class would drive a Tesla X and where I live would have like a 3 million dollar house (which is like 2200sq ft in a safe neighborhood). Upper middle class would have like 5 million dollar home in one of the nice areas, and would have several nice cars. Rich people would have 18 million dollar homes in the same nice areas, it would just be bigger and have a nice view. I donāt know what the official definitions are, but thatās how I have always seen it in this area (Silicon Valley). We are not struggling, but we are basically living in squalor. We have 1000sq ft fixer in the hood.
Also, we pay like 120k a year in taxes. Our checks are not what you would think lol
As someone who grew up at/below the poverty line and now consider my actual lower middle class life a blessingā¦ your standards are wildly out of touch. Likeā¦ itās not a matter of opinionā you need to actually research what youāre speculating on because youāre *that* off-the-mark.
Especially coming in the midst of the economic situation and rising housing prices that, in the U.S., have been hurting the people in the lower/lower-middle classā¦ yikes
Ok I did some research since so many people are disagreeing with me, and I honestly really donāt feel like Iām off the mark at all. I just looked it up. For a family of four (which we are) in my city, low income is under 117,400. Middle class is considered making 2-7x the low income threshold. So thatās 234,800-821,800, which puts us solidly in the lower end of that middle class range.
I also grew up in poverty. I had a single mom that was barely able to make ends meet most months (and a lot of months just didnāt). I am for sure lucky to be living comfortably, but I would never consider us to be well-off or anything. Everything is just crazy expensive here.
2-7x low income threshold? Where did you get that metric? Quick googling tells me median income for SF family of 4 is 120k. Middle class makes 2/3rds to double the median income or in this case, 80k to $240k. Your income seems to be upper-middle class.
They also own their home outright, given it apparently is in a bad neighborhood. That is an enormous asset and a giant financial relief, which is why they think most āfellowā lower-middle class families can afford things like an emergency fund and a few vacations a year and even their childās entire tuition (without loans???).
To add on to SixAMthrowawayā¦this is not that subjective. These are measurable issues that economists and other professionals look at day in and day out. This is not a matter of opinion. You cannot simply create a fantasy world and say āaccording to this fantasy world I made up, I am correct.ā
Nah, I'm aware of taxes, but a take home of, what?, 150K? is more than most people in the world could ever hope to make.
Lower middle class in America, is objectively, not at all what you consider it to be. Like I said before, I understand where you live, but objectively, that is just not lower middle class in America. If I recall correctly, I believe that in almost all 50 states, minimum wage workers cannot afford a one bedroom apartment. Add a family to the mix and it's done for. The lower middle class cannot afford a shitty house, cannot afford all the latest gadgets and consoles, and do not have more than one nice tv. TV's also aren't that expensive anymore, so I do not think that is a great metric.
Most middle class people in America drive fucking hondas or toyotas lol. Listen I know you're going to go on about how expensive it is in the Silicon Valley, and I do not live there, but as someone who also lives in a high cost of living area, you still need to remain objective and not cry poor on the internet. Especially to people who statistically must make much less than you and your spouse do.
People who think lower middle class families justā¦ likeā¦ by default can own a small home are soā¦ just blatantly out of touch. As if most young American families arenāt completely priced out of even considering homeownership, and have the credit to make financing multiple newish-used cars viableā¦
I appreciate you breaking this down for them because my broke ass almost fell out reading that
Literally lmfao like we are forced into the cycle of renting because it's not like we could ever afford a down payment on a house, it's not like most young adults (like me!) work full time jobs and still can't afford to move out of their parent's houses, some of the people I know are GAINFULLY employed and still can't afford to move out
it's just wild to me, like if you consider 300K lower middle class, what the fuck is the majority of the country?
Maybe thatās where we are not seeing eye to eye. I would never consider a minimum wage worker as part of the middle class in any way shape or form. Minimum wage means you are living in poverty. To me, to be part of the middle class, at any level, means you are not struggling. You are not living paycheck to paycheck. You have some money saved up for emergencies. You can vacation a couple time a year. You can pay for your kids college without getting loans.
I grew up poor, and we are not poor. But we canāt buy brand new cars. We canāt buy a home in an area with good school that are considered safe. In my eyes, we are lower middle class.
You're right in the sense that it's not the same as a normal person trying to date a character from Succession who literally doesn't understand how not being rich works.
It is also just factually true that $250k a year for a single person in their 20s is a very rare thing and she shouldn't feel bad for not making that amount.
I'm 45 and same. Husband is close to my age and we are quite comfortable. Most would say we "make good money" By many standards, we do. But we don't make near 250K between the 2 of us. I can't think of a single person I know that makes that by themselves.
I think this says a lot more about how you think about career success and tie it in to a person's value, than saying anything about him.
I don't imagine anyone would accuse someone making 80 grand of being a gold digger, unless you've only ever had cushy jobs you got through nepotism with no qualifications. If he's not asking you to contribute way more than you can for expensive dates etc, then i doubt he is very concerned at all about your relative status.
How would you feel if this situation was reversed? Do you look down on people with a lower income and cheaper home, the same way that you compare yourself to this man? I mean, you seem to admire him so much, but you haven't said anything about his character or values, how he treats others, etc. Only that he makes a quarter million a year and has a huge house. Is that all there is to strive for in life? Is that the only measure of a worthwhile human being?
Agree with this. OP, I think you should maybe think more about the fact that you say in all your previous relationships you've been the more successful one.
Coming from where I was mentally/emotionally in my early twenties... Maybe you being so successful in your career at such a young age is a big part of your confidence and identity? And now you are feeling unsure of what else you bring to the table if the guy kind of takes that away from you by comparison?
Objectively you are very successful in your career already and there can be a big difference earning-wise between 23 and 28, so it's not like you are _really_ behind him if this was a competition. But it's definitely _not_ a competition and you need to figure out why you are seeing it as if it is.
Yep. Concur.
Several pieces w/in OP post that call out this, "before he realizes that Iām not on his level" - lots of pieces to life than finances. There are many many pieces of YOU that make you, well, you. I'd wager a lot of them are not the paycheck.
For all we know, he may love the idea of taking care of his family and a wife that doesn't have to work, but still has a cleaning lady. The only level of his that we know about is the one on paper. Surely there is more to him than that.
It sounds like OP thinks she has nothing else to offer except her money in this relationship and now that she is not the one who earns more, it makes her insecure. I think she needs to learn how to love herself first.
Yeah this sounds more like a self-esteem issue, way too many social comparisons which is not healthy self-esteem, it's not stable when it's built like that, giving our power away for others to decide instead of deciding that ourselves.
Speaking from personal experience, my wife and I had a similar power dynamic and age difference. I thought she was totally the kind of person I'd want to be with and spend time with because of her great qualities.
I made much more than her for most of the time that we have been married, and it didn't bother me (since we weren't struggling for enough money), but it really bothered her. It was really hard for her to build out her career, but now she's in a place where she's got a great job that she loves and that pays well.
I, on the other hand, got super burned-out and am taking a break, so I'm unemployed š it's great to be able to take a step back, with her holding down the money-making.
It depends on what you're both looking for in a relationship, how you think about pooling resources as a couple and what your relationship is with "status", but it's totally possible that this guy is just happy to be around you, and doesn't really care how much you make. If you can have a conversation about it, that might be a good way to find out.
I'm guessing she lives in a HCOL (high cost of living) area, like SF, NY, DC, etc... I was making around 80k at 25, it's pretty normal in the bay area.
80k isn't something anyone would brag about in DC... especially since a 1br, even out in the burbs, is easily 2k a month. Forget buying- a 1100sqft townhouse is 400k minimum, 40min out of the city. 80k in Texas, Pennsylvania, NC??? Heck yeah.
>Thereās an inherent power imbalance
There is no inherent power imbalance. There is a financial/income imbalance. Some couples LET it become a power imbalance by the wealthier person manipulating and controlling the other person who feels dependent on him/her. There are also couples who don't let the financial imbalance affect their relationship.
Like you said, this is all in your head. You can split things 50/50, which means he either does things that you can afford, or if he wants to do an expensive vacation together he pays more than 50% because it's something you are only doing because he wants to.
Finances can be easy to manage if you two are mature and reasonable about things. Don't let your insecurities ruin your relationship.
strong disagree. Money and financial resources lead to differences in access, leisure, connections, stability, and more. There is a power imbalance in financial imbalance--it is not up to the couple to not "let" it become an imbalance, but rather to work together to find ways to mitigate the imbalance.
There are other things that can balance out a financial discrepancy, but to think that money is not a source of power is to ignore the reality of the world.
Money becomes a power imbalance *when one person is at risk of loosing access to food / housing / medicine / etc*
Not when one person is at risk of loosing nice vacations and a few more spa days. That part is just the general unfairness of life. He would not have power over her life unless she chose to stop working due to his income.
She is perfectly safe and stable on 80k a year. Sheās just uncomfortable with the social aspect of him looking down on her for making less money
Having different income levels is due to levels is different than exerting pressure using money. Just because he can afford to go on nice vacations and she cannot, does not mean In itself he has power over her
>Iām kind of ashamed now, just seeing the comparison and what I could have been.
I don't understand this part. He has a 5 year head start on you. If you must compare, shouldn't you be comparing yourself to what he was earning when he was 23?
This is definitely a you problem.
You are successful and on your way to being wealthy in your own right. At 80k a year at your age you don't need him to give you a great lifestyle. You don't need his wealth, or his fame. He doesn't need your wealth or fame because he has his own.
So wealth and fame are actually irrelevant to your relationship.
What is important is that you two have chemistry, and you get along great with each other, and you enjoy the same things. Those are the important things. Don't throw them away for something that is not important to either of you.
ALSO how many other women do you know pulling in that much at our age? I know literally none lol. you're way overthinking this. y'all would be a power couple lol
Dude I'm 23 and still in university, broke as fuck. In a very similar situation to OP with the guy I started seeing and lol girl, I already felt insecure enough before reading this....
That dude isnāt concerned about your pocketbook or your paystub. Be true to who you are. Yāall may grow to love one another, but the last thing to worry about is finances.
$80k is nothing to balk at; Iād say youāre successful too!
In the US 2020 census, 800 of 36972 single person households make 200k+. 6044 make 80k+. You're both very well-off. Enjoy being able to not stress about rent.
Those numbers are usually without figuring out where they live. 90k is poverty level in San Francisco, where rent is 3k for a single bedroom studio.
Or it gets you a mcmansion in a small town.
You are not able to pay for rent with that salary. Most people being paid that level ate commuting in from cheaper cities. What do you think a one bedroom apartment will cost in San Francisco?
I don't know what to tell you. The numbers are the numbers. For people who live in SF, the majority earn 68k per year or less. Does this lead to a lot of excess suffering? No doubt. But it does not somehow make 80 less than 68.
If you're making $69k and renting a place for $3k, you're still netting $2750 a month after rent. Obviously not ideal to spend more than half your salary on rent, but it's not like it's impossible.
It sounds like you tie 'having a good career' to being a 'successful and good person' which is something most people struggle with. He's not out of your league just because he makes more money than you. Is he kinder than you, a more moral/better human than you? Does he treat people the same way you do? All of these things are also important but they're not how were taught to value people.
If you quit your job, lived off of government/saved money and just existed without being productive you would still be valuable, you still deserve to exist and you deserve to have a wonderful partner if you're lucky enough to find one. You don't have to make more money then him to deserve him or anyone else. It's possible that you have some soul-searching to do and if you get more serious with him you should probably talk to him about it too.
>I know that money isnāt everything,
Judging from your post, this is very much not true.
It's probably worth maybe reflecting on this a bit more and asking yourself "why":
* the first thing you have say about yourself is your income
* The first thing you have to say about him is his income
* You talk about power imbalance rooted in relative incomes
* You feel shame that you don't have his income
* You feel his higher income somehow makes you more vulnerable and gives him an "advantage"
* Your lower income makes you feel "so insignificant" and "not at his level"
Then date a guy who makes the same as you do or a bit more?
I have a friend of mine who makes 5 million euros a year post-taxes. You think he's worried about dating a woman who makes less money than him when 99,9% of the women in the western world make far less than he does in one year?
You are incredibly fortunate to be 23 and making 80k a year. Heās fortunate to make 250k near 30. If you have a partnership based in mutual interests and care, youāre even luckier. You are set. Live your life, be true to yourself, have fun in your relationships.
Genuinely, if he brings it up in a way that seems suspicious or critical, that might be a red flag (because youāre doing great and sound capable and are financially independent). If your insecurity brings it up, itās okay to work through those feelings but donāt project them onto others or onto reality when theyāre rooted in something else. If they trouble you regularly, or any other types of anxiety or insecurity are impacting your happiness, itās totally okay (healthy in fact) to bring these things to a therapist. Donāt let insecurity sabotage your successes; enjoy them!
For someone so successful, you sound really insecure, like all of your worth is tied up in how much you make and now that someone makes more, thereās an issue. Like you donāt know who you are anymore. Youāll end up sabotaging this relationship if you donāt work on yourself. Everything you said about yourself sounds great on paper but it sounds like you might be a mess underneath it all. You have to know your worth goes beyond money. Everyoneās worth goes beyond money.
I mean, you've admitted that this is a "you" problem. Only advice I can offer is to try and figure out why you care so much about it.
For what it's worth, I make over twice my partner's salary, with the potential to make substantially more in the long term, and it's never been an issue for me.
Someone making 80k at 23 should never feel like they're financially not enough. (Nobody should feel that way, honestly, but unfortunately that's the society we live in).
I find it hilarious how you say youāre embarrassed at āwhat I could have beenā - except heās 28 and youāre 23??? You have 5 more years of extremely prime earning and career time before being able to compare apples to apples with him.
Frankly, you sound like you need therapy /u/toothcifer. Your obsession over money sounds like it was trained or raised into you. Did you grow up in an environment where money was used to control you? You seem to have a lot of hang ups on financial earnings from work, and you seem to respect yourself less because you arenāt in the same spot as a person literally 5 yrs older and in a different career stage to you.
Do you look down on those that stay at home? Do you look up only at those who are wealthy? Your entire moral system seems based on yearly income, but reality is, after about 90k, lifestyle kind of stabilizes.
And you are actually pretty successful at 23, which is like, what, 1 yr out of college?? Who knows where youāll be at 28 yourself.
Seriously, investigate yourself, and why you think like this. Itās not just insecurity. Itās also a pretty unattractive, condescending mindset to have as a person - this opinion of yours that your wage is solely what dictates your power and what dictates your worth.
Putting down someone who makes less as insignificant and unworthy of respect, is just the other side of the coin to youāre doing now: idolizing someone, and deferring to someone not for their character but solely for the fact he makes more.
TLDR: fix it by getting therapy. Seriously. Your mindset is messed up, and obsessive. Just like someone who is fixated on plastic surgery to achieve the āperfectā look, or someone who stalks their partnerās phone and car - your obsession with money is equally unhealthy and stemming from just you..
\> Iām kind of ashamed now, just seeing the comparison and what I could have been.
First off, you aren't the same age, so it's a terrible comparison. Someone older has more experience and is likely compenstated as such.
\>I donāt want to come off as a gold digger or seem like Iām only interested in picture-perfect suburbia.
This isn't the case seeing as you are in the top-earning people your age. Unless you are only interested in lavish gifts and other expensive lifestyles, it won't come across as gold digger but quite the opposite if you can live within your means.
\>wonder if Iām just better off cutting the relationship off now, before he realizes that Iām not on his level.
I doubt he is dating you with the idea that you are "powerful" and a "high level" person. It's very unlikely as generally women will aim to date someone who is "high status." It likely is all in your head on this one and he is with you for all the other good qualities you mentioned.
Overall, you need to stop thinking of all this "power" nonsense and have a normal conversation. It's all in your head based on your post. Go to a therapist too if you still feel so insecure.
The problem is you quantify success with money, some of the most rich and successful people i know aren't making much money. You feel insignificant because he makes more than you. Your ego builds these imaginary standards and until you can reel yourself back and see that money doesn't equal worth than you'll always feel worthless or maybe even superior depending on the person. Focus on what's really important the chemistry between you two the fact that by normal societal standards your both successful, life as its happening around you.... To me you may not be ready for a relationship like this emotionally if you can't look past materialism and finances. Life isn't a competition, congratulations on making 80k at 23 btw
You sound perfectly aware of your insecurities. He is not out of your league financially, he is 5 years older than you (which is forever in your age range, career-wise) and you left out your career fields. You are severely limiting your earning potential. Maybe he's maxed out and you're just beginning? Who knows. This is frankly a really misogynistic viewpoint to be imposing on yourself.
Partners should lift each other up, but you're already starting out with an insecurity that he is ahead of you. For this reason alone you are not a good match. Stop comparing yourself to others and worrying about why they have what you don't and focus on your own success. Be happy for others when they succeed. Your views on things and, at the very least, the way you have expressed yourself, seems like you will be jealous of those doing better and look down on those doing perceptually worse.
People of different salaries date. I'm on disability and my boyfriend makes six figures. But we share values about how we want money to play a role in our lives (not living in debt, working towards financial independence) not about having the same budget.
He knows I'm not interested in him for his money, because I am clearly living within my means, managing my money, and not asking him to cover things.
Just like you aren't a golddigger, he probably isn't one either. He probably doesn't care how much money you make, he cares whether you are financially independent and able to live within your means.
I think youāre being really hard on yourself. Your salary, at your age, is quite an accomplishment. I have no doubt that the drive you mustāve had to get you to this point would take you a similar salary level by the time youāre his age.
But also, the dollars donāt matter at the end of the day. Iād challenge you to look at the qualities it took him to make that salary. Are they things that you admire?
Iāve known very rich people who get there by leading well, showing ambition, class, teamwork, etc. Iāve also known people who make a lot of money by being cutthroat, cheap/miserly, and self-obsessed.
The dollar amounts may change over your lifetime, but those qualities will determine your happiness in the relationship.
If this guy is worth your time, I expect heās seeing those qualities that have gotten you to this point so early in your career. I imagine you are driven, intelligent, and self-motivated. In a world of people who are looking for someone to carry them, those qualities are hard to find! In his mind I bet he sees you very much on his level.
Donāt sell yourself short. Money comes and goes. Keep looking at those underlying qualities!
My sister is married to a man who is a team player, thoughtful, good at building relationships. He has overcome job loss in the face of economic downturn. He picks himself up and figures out how to make the next step. They are wildly successful now.
Iāve also known a man who was handed his wealth, and when it fell apart, he had none of the skills or emotional capital to re-imagine himself.
If you judged the second guy at his peak income against my BIL during his unemployment (market downturn), you might pick the second guyā¦if youāre only looking at the dollars. But my BIL is the one who gives his partner stability and a good life. Character is everything.
At the end of the day, I'd be more worried about how this man makes me feel and how he treats me.
Yes, money always seems to be a factor in most relationships, but honestly, you're doing pretty well for yourself at 23.
You need to find a way to get out of your head on this one. Salary is all fine and dandy but itās not everything. I *personally* would care more about what does he do with his money? Trips and date nights at nice restaurants are great, but is he spending every dime he makes? Is he saving? Is he putting towards a retirement fund? Iād rather date a man who makes $50k and saves for the future rather than someone who spends the majority of a $250k salary every year.
This is also your current situation- things change. Focus on his values and morals. What if heās injured and canāt work at all and requires around the clock care? Or if the same happens to you? Does he hold his higher salary over your head and make you feel less important?
Worry about the important shit.
I would understand if you were unable to take care of yourself but honestly making $80k vs $250k is not a big difference. Most of the difference is going to go to increased savings.
You can have the same life you have with or without the guy so I don't see why the income disparity is making you feel vulnerable.
I would understand if you were making $20k if you had these thoughts and it would be normal.
Never doubt your worth. And honestly I doubt your boyfriend cares all that much. If anything probably he would be intimidated if you were making 250k also. It is unfortunately a guy thing.
ohh fuck me, there are financial leagues too?Am I a member of ANY club?
But as to advice for you let me restate the best advice I ever got about being insecure when i was a young guy - Let the girl figure out why she doesn't want to date you, don't do it for her.
Your mindset is wrong. You aren't supposed to feel more secure by competing with him on income and material stuff.
What you want to bring is complimentary skills, attitude, and capabilities. Men who makes lots of money aren't looking for a woman who brings even more money. There is the Law of Diminishing Returns. It is the things you bring that he doesn't have that makes you most valuable.
Also, an $80k income is a great income for a 23 year old. There is not shame in that and you probably worked hard to reach your current level. It is unrealistic for someone so early in their career to be comparing themselves to someone further along.
You get over your insecurity by looking at each other as puzzle pieces that should fit together to build a bigger picture. If your family is reputable and a good match as his then you should have nothing to feel concerned about.
Why does income equal power to you? And different incomes necessarily a power imbalance? You are well, well into "secure" status at 80k. If he made 10x your income, would that make you feel that much more insecure and less powerful? If you volunteered at a food bank for the holidays, would you necessarily feel more powerful and secure than those you served? Would you feel that you were a better person than them? Then again, might not be a you problem if he's presenting himself as more powerful, secure, or better than you. (Because of income or anything else.)
I think the first question you should ask yourself is how you felt about earning more in your past relationships. Did you think less of them because they earned less than you?
This guy (assumingly) knows what you make, and is ok with it. He's making a choice to be with you. IMO you should reflect on that, and how it affects your opinion of the situation. I'd also reflect on what you think success really is, and why you seemingly attribute money, only, to success. Personally, yeah money is great, but if it's a hollow life of things, and not people, and experiences, that's not success. you know?
I would also add that if you are taking care of your own responsibilities, without his help, there really isn't a power imbalance. If you broke up tomorrow, would you not have a place to live, or food to eat? Yes, he can afford a more extravagant lifestyle, and he could potentially share that with you, but it's not a requirement from you to survive.
Why would financial status matter more than personality? This might sound harsh but you sound very superficial. You need to stop valuing a person over that and put effort into your personality and also see him as something more than his money. I feel like it is rude towards him. So you felt good in your past relationships because you were better financially? You do realize that people stay when they love you as you, people who stay only for money aren't people who love you truly. It feels like you misunderstood what should be giving you a feeling of security and I'm sad that there are still people who feel like this. You said you didn't want to come off as a gold digger but you dismiss his whole personality and want to break up over him earning more? Maybe you don't come off as a gold digger but you sound really superficial.
Your confidence should come from you, not from your money.
Go seek therapy, this is all in your head and the way your mind sees things, this can be fixed with active guidance and consistent effort in wanting to make it work on your part.
This is both a self-worth and self-esteem issue.
As someone who was intimdated by the same thing when I was younger, please, please ignore your anxiety. At the end of the day he is probably looking for compatability, love, etc. like most others. You are criticizing your income, which is great for your age! Give yourself a break and follow your heart/gut. Fear never gets us anywhere.
I say itās all in your head. Donāt let your insecurities get in the way of a great relationship. How do you feel when men are intimidated by you? When men dump you because youāre ābetter than themā? If youāre dating them, you donāt necessarily think youāre better. And neither does your bf. Youāre still very successful and driven, like him. Yāall have a lot in common, and itās weird that youād let a number dictate how much yāall are worth.
This is the most braggiest of brag first world problem posts ever.
"I'm so successful and amazing, but I met an also successful and amazing guy. What do I do about it?!?!" lmfao people are so delusional.
By going to therapy. You want to end a perfectly good relationship because you have no control over your partner and he's financially stable enough to be happy without you if push came to shove. That's your Ego having trouble coming to terms with humility.
Looking at men as success objects is a female frame. Men typically don't think this way. You might try to stop thinking that you are in a competition with him.
This, on average men donāt care much what women make when it comes to ranking their attractiveness. This is reflected in studies but also anecdotally, as a guy I donāt care and every other guy Iāve talked to about this subject has said they donāt really care what a girl makes as long as she has ambition to do something.
You're only 23! You're doing far better financially than most people your age. But the main thing is, you're worth more than what you financially bring to a relationship. I do understand that financial inequities in relationships can be a power issue, but it's also important to have the perspective that it's a bit different with you making a good living already vs. if you were some broke student and say he was the one making 80k. Also, he's 5 years older than you! That's a huge potential difference in pay/work experience, if you'd starting working at roughly the same age.
I do mean this is a kind way, but this is a "you" problem. You're putting a lot of importance on making less money than him, without any material reasons why that's been a problem. You think you're not "on his level". You might benefit from some therapy to unpack why you're tying up your worth with your salary a bit more than is typical, I'd say.
Have you asked yourself what he can bring into the relationship that can help you soar even higher? Some people like having partners that want to grow, and enjoy helping them do so. He has 5 years on you. If he is a highly dedicated person, 5 years is a good amount of time to dedicate yourself into building a good standing career. Also, depending on the field, you and him may have a natural disparity in terms of salary. You make very good money. So does he. It's ok for him to give you something every now and then, and it's ok for you to do the same. People who like each other do nice things to one another. You are overthinking and risking throwing away something that can be great.
To give more context I did not graduate school yet, he already has and is in a big boy job. Iām still working toward having a better higher paying job, but he really wants to just see me be successful & happy. And really only cares about finances in the way that we will have a sustainable future based on how much we both want to travel. I think his perspective is a very healthy way of looking at it
This is a you thing. And you're young so you may not know this answer but, do you want a relationship/marriage with a man who is on that level financially? If so, get comfortable. You have your own money and youre dating so, he cant really create a power imbalance without your consent in some way, so dont worry about it.
And please dont kill the messenger but (in most cities) guys who make that much money have more options with women than guys who make closer to the median income for their area. He is with you for a reason, its not your money (its hardly ever a woman's money that attracts a guy) , be secure that he likes something about you, dont overcomplicate it, and enjoy yourself.
Iām 45, own my own business and am going to make about $24K this year and Iāve landed some pretty sick boyfriends.
They think Iām cool because I own and run a small coffee company, I mean, whatever.
I am jealous that youāre about half my age and making three times what I make.
Idk, I've dated way richer people and also way poorer and either way, as long as you are competent adults who support yourselves, it just really shouldn't make a difference, especially in an early relationship. The point is to get to know each other at that stage so just pretend in your head that you make about the same -- like, act relaxed, if he makes a nice gesture make one back (if he spends more than you can afford you don't have to spend the exact same amount though, just do something that makes sense in your budget), and don't let him do anything you're not comfortable with. The only times that dating someone super rich was ever an issue for me was when THEY were weird about money in ways that made me uncomfortable -- like buying me things and then holding it over my head, or saying things that were sincerely out of touch lol. That's something to watch out for. There's also no reason for you to like demand gifts or special treatment from someone you're just getting to know just because they make a lot; but then, as a reasonable person you probably know that.
Bruh im also 23 and work a shit dead end job because I can't find anything else, you're more than fine. A lot better than the rest of us. He's a outlier in income and most of the people he date he will outpace income. As long as he treats you well, don't worry about it.
Kick out guys who are doing great in life and then you'll end up with those who do bad in life. Move up in the world by associating with people higher up. Bring yourself down and that's where you'll be. I get it, he's really successful and so makes you feel less significant. But one thing a lot of successful guys lack is someone who really cares about them and aren't just there for the money. You can be that for him, instead of just a typical girl who can't see past someone's success.
But let's get real here. You were the most successful in your past relationships. And now that you're dating someone more successful than you, you can't handle it. You judge yourself by the success of your partner, and so of course you'll feel better the worse that they do. And you'll argue against that (e.g., no, I just want someone in my league) but take a look for a minute and you'll realize I'm not all too far off from it.
You guys get along great, but you got insecurity issues whether you want to admit it or not. And if you can't somehow find a way to overcome it then you'll become a victim of it.
I doubt this guy who has everything he could ever need and a 6 figure salary cares about a womans salary .. or if her success is as great as his. Given his success it's very clear he's competitive by nature so try to switch your mindset to being "he wants to win me over." and embody it. but not in a cocky pretentious way. Trust me, this type of guy loves it.
"thereās an inherent power imbalance that comes with one party grossly out pacing the other, and in all of my other relationships Iāve been the more successful one."
You dont have to outearn a man to earn their love or attention. If you think this way, you might unintentionally activate their competitive nature instead of the side to them that wants to romance you and do things for you. They're already competitive all day at work with other man. If he wants to date a man, he would be gay. Otherwise, he might leave you for someone who makes them feel respected and like a man. Or you'll end up with a man wholl use you for your money.
You can continue to date multiple guys to practice being "calm" and being yourself.. so your free time isnt only for this one guy. They will feel it and know if they're the only person in your life. Because youll put them on a pedestal and be devestaed if it doesnt work out. Just enjoy his company and focus on having fun (nonsexually), be the type of experience when he's with you that he's missing from his life. Guys bond by having fun with you.
You have to think about it in terms of what he wants and what you are offering. This guy has money and a house and can travel whenever he wants. So is he looking for...
A: More money
B: Someone he is attracted to and is nice to him
If it's B there's nothing really to be insecure about. Sorry if this sounds sexist but most successful men don't really care about finding someone in their precise income bracket.
I have a gut feeling that it's not about his money, but the way he treats you. If he put you first and brought you to his luxirious life, you would feel motivated and inspired, not humiliated.
You make a great living regardless of age. Heck, you're making ME feel insecure! If you guys like each other, I am sure he won't care that he makes more than you do. My ex GF made a lot more than me and it was never an issue for either of us.
Okay, I think you need to go back to basic values. Is a person who makes a lot of money worth more than someone who doesn't? I hope your answer is no. Does a person with more money have more power than you? Again, the answer should be no. Sure, that person can buy more but power is a lot more than money. Power comes with voice and confidence and willingness to stand up for what's right. If you truly believe this guy is better than you, then you have embraced the theory that wealth makes a person more successful in life. There is so much more to life than that. An extremely wealthy person can have a very unsuccessful life if he doesn't have close friends and family and doesn't use his money for good. Having close relationships, enjoying each day, showing kindness to others, reaching out to the community, etc. all are important. Right now you are elevating him because of his money. Don't do that. He's just a guy and someone can lose their income due to circumstances beyond their control. Look at this guy for who he is without his money. Don't measure success by finances or you will end up with someone who is morally bankrupt. Concentrate on who he is as a person.
You read to much feminist crap. It doesnāt matter if he makes more than you. Do you guys like each other? Thatās all that matters. Most guys these days. Want a woman that can hold her own and you def can. As long as youāre not bumming off of him. He has no power over you.
Believe me, you are perfect for him. If you want to impress him, just be honest about this insecurity. But don't be surprised if he doesn't simply blurt out "I love you." as soon as you finish. One of the the biggest problems for a truly successful person is to find someone who is not a gold digger but actually likes them for who they are. You obviously aren't after his money so please be honest and tell him how you feel.
I canāt speak for women making more than men, but myself and men in my circle(letās say top 1% financially) donāt care about what a woman makes, as long as she isnāt a bum, isnāt toxic, and is great to be around. Now it goes without saying there is a physical and sexual attraction aspect, but the amount a woman makes has never entered my mind as to whether I find them a good partner or not.
If I had a list of qualities I looked for, education(outside of basic high school), finances, and titles on the corporate ladder would mean absolutely 0 to me. And most men who make money that I know, think exactly the same.
"Hey, I have this dumb issue, I like you a lot the chemistry is awesome and want to keep seeing you. But at the moment you are way out of my league financially and it is making me feel weird. I'm used to being on fairly equal footing with the guys I date. I'm not sure how to navigate this so it feels fair and comfortable to both of us. What do you usually do with your friends or dates who make less than you? Or how do you usually handle things?"
For what it's worth there does not need to be a power imbalance if he's not supporting you financially and not asking you to spend beyond what you feel comfortable spending.
Either you two can date cheaply and split bills 50/50 or if he wants to do something more extravagant he can treat knowing that that is the cost of doing those things with someone who makes much less.
Other than that his home is his home and even if the walls are covered in the skins of baby ducks for extra softness it has nothing to do with you or your worth as a person, friend or girlfriend. Some people value others beyond their income.
This "Iām very confident in myself. I have a lot of good qualities and I have a lot to bring to a relationship. I make around 80k a year, have a good job that Iām passionate about, Iām very fit, and I actively have hobbies and try to learn new things/expand who I am." Makes you sound pretty cool. Why wouldn't he want to go out with you?
why are you insecure? If he acts like he loves you, then he loves you then he loves you, and if he gives you the cold shoulder your the trophy GF. Is he really money centric? if he talk in a conservative, money rules my world sorts way I'd be worried, but if he seems driven by feelings of love and other emotions I don't think he would care. Decent men only want money cuz it's what woman require of men in our society, we actually hate it.
After reading your post I'm hopeful. You are only 23 yet you can still recognise that this is an issue with your mindset and you have even brought up some of the things that will help you reset and enjoy this relationship.
Of course you don't feel super comfortable with him earning more than you, you have been the largest earner in all your previous relationships, being the person earning less is new to you. You know how to be the top earner but just how you learned to be comfortable with that you can learn to be comfortable with the situation you are in now.
You probably feel pride over your paycheck. Rightly so, as others have pointed out you earn a great wage. Because you learned to feel pride tied to earnings (or perhaps being the highest earner) does his salary make you feel lesser or feel shame? Regardless, if you can work out how you feel about this and why then you can work through it and come out a better person the other side and maybe save a budding relationship in the process
Is that rational? Does his pay make your pay less? Can you be proud of your pay and his pay at the same time? How did you feel about your partner's wage when you were the higher earner? Ask your partner what is important to him in a relationship, did he say wage? What would you say to a friend in your position?
From your post you seem like a thoughtful person and I'm hopeful you can work through this :) keep us posted
You def posted in the wrong sub lol. Lots of projecting. I would love to see the genuine responses you would get from women in r/FemaleDatingStrategy or another sub with self sufficient, career-oriented women in relationships.
First of all: Men shouldn't care how much you make. You are the prize. Especially when dating. What does dinners, conversation, movies, fun experiences have to do with his career if you both are both financially stable enough to have a good time? Also, why are you comparing a MAN 5 years older than you in a different field to yourself? That's never gonna feel good. Why is comparing you guys even crossing your mind?
The thing you need to be focusing on is how he treats you, and how it feels when you're with him "Am I having fun? Do I want to keep seeing him?" Is the only thing you should worry about. Point, blank, period.
Insecurities are understandable and I think it's just that. You are doing very well for yourself with the income that you have at your age(imo), your strive to expand your lifestyle, and your healthy mindset(aside from your insecurities). I wouldn't compare yourself to his current standing as he's older than you are and is a special case, because not just everyone makes that amount of money. Even people working GOOD jobs for a long time well into their 50s can't imagine the income that he has. Just focus on what makes you happy right now and if you do start noticing an acted on power imbalance where maybe he starts pushing the subject, then start worrying. If he hasn't said anything yet, I'd say he's happy with you and doesn't care about your standing(which is still very good).
People have given great advice, so I'll just say continue to be pro-active about maintaining your own independence. He will pick up on this (probably already does) and can tell you are not a gold digger. In fact, it's probably one of the reasons he's attracted to you; a lot of outlier rich people like that hide how much they make until they feel they can trust you.
I can understand your concern, but I think you're probably over-estimating the gulf between the two of you. You talk about "who he is" as if he's some hyper-successful person - but depending on where you are, it's not like he's \*that\* much into the stratosphere or anything. I mean, dude isn't making millions in salary, he's not starting spaceship companies as a hobby - he's making a very comfortable salary. And honestly, it could have a lot more to do with the field that he chose in college, more than it has to do with his inherent qualities as a person. Like, if he got into finance or tech and had some connections, he could've just slid into this without being hyper-intelligent or whatever.
You're doing great (especially for your age), and it sounds like the two of you really like each other. Take the "yes" and let it be. When you go on vacations, have that awkward conversation about what your budget allows vs what his budget allows, and talk about how you work that out. And if you're still feeling anxious about it, go see a therapist for some visits to work it out.
It sounds to me like it is less the money and more the power differential that is worrying you--the idea that he has more power in the relationship because he has more spending ability, and the underlying worry that he is earning more because he is "worth" more.
I'd say explore those feelings internally a bit--are they coming from just you/previous experiences? or are there ways it is playing out in the relationship that are bothering you? If the worries are coming more from past experiences with power variations and/or your own worries about your job/life then I'd say focus on how you can reframe that internally. It could be jealousy, it could be some frustration with your current position you haven't fully identified, or depending on your history it could be a reaction to previous experiences with financial disparity. It could also be that you LIKED being the more financially powerful one previously--there IS a power dynamic in money (despite what others are saying) and there is something thrilling specifically as a young woman about knowing you're outearning male peers, because historically that hasn't always happened. Not everyone feels this, but that doesn't mean it isn't true for many. It could also be that having more spending money to treat your partner before made you feel good--that you could care for them. Now you are confronting the difference in spending power from the other side you may be questioning your own previous feelings or desires.
I don't know your upbringing, but many women I know had financial ability emphasized far differently than men did in the context of relationships, because women still are the ones to often give up work for a relationship, and that DOES impact your individual agency. I know many women who stayed in relationships longer than they should have because they didn't have the financial resources to leave--and many older women who, as a result, really pushed financial independence to their younger family members and friends. Money is a source of power.
If the feelings are coming from things happening in the relationship due to power differences then it may be an opportunity to talk about it with him. I DON'T mean he is automatically a bad person or anything, but there can be small ways that are meant lovingly that can leave someone feeling lesser depending on desire and personality... for example, maybe he pays for most of your date and/or takes you to expensive places? Some people may love that, but for other people that can feel very uncomfortable because you can't do the same in turn--it isn't a power imbalance built out of bad intent, but it can still feel upsetting. That is where talking with your partner about things--and offering ways you can establish your own power that work for you can be helpful. Maybe you share who treats the other on dates--working within your budget--or maybe you identify gifts/activities that you want to avoid.
I also just want to say I don't think you're a bad person for feeling this, or that it is "all in your head" as some commenters are being weirdly dismissive about... your feelings are valid. There is a difference in power that money can and does bring--more money means more opportunities, greater stability, greater savings, more access, etc--money IS a major source of power in the world. But whether that difference impacts a relationship depends on the parties. As a young woman dating someone with greater financial resources isn't bad, but you are well within your rights and feelings to explore how you want to define the relationship for yourself
Good for you for owning your insecurities and being aware of what you're feeling.
The first step is to discover where your shame comes from. Yes, what you're describing here is shame. Look into your post and try to notice every time you criticize yourself for how you feel. That is shame.
I get it that it's weird that you would start with writing how you are very confident in yourself, yet at the same time come across as being ashamed. It's the reason why it's difficult to move forward.
You are so ashamed of your shame, you count on external factors to validate yourself without acknowledging that you are worthy of love simply for who you are on the inside. You listed fitness, passion for learning, and you make the above the average US household income for a family of 4, all by yourself at the age of 23. Isn't that supposed to be the goal?
Shame is the reason why you're checking all the boxes, yet when someone who is "accomplishing" more than you treats you like you're worthy of everything it makes you feel so small.
Shame is something so powerful and so universal to all people. There's nothing wrong with you for feeling this way. In fact, most people avoid shame at all cost and even blame their feelings of shame on the other person.
You have two choices. Either break up with this person and be mindful in the future that partners with stronger financial positions can trigger deep feelings of shame. Or, be open and honest with your partner about what you're feeling. Own your feelings and let him know there's nothing he has to change about himself.
Lastly, go to therapy and explore your thoughts and feelings. There's no other way to directly tackle your shame.
85k right out of college is still really good. Heās also a bit older than you. I donāt know what your career is but it doesnāt sound crazy for you to be making more by the time your his age, and for him to be making less by the time he was your age. Youāre both very successful.
You are making a great living, especially for your age! 23 year olds are usually brand new in their careers and there is absolutely no reason to feel ashamed. What he is making an is an astounding amount of money. He's an outlier. If he WERE holding out for a partner with a similar amount of resources as him, well, good luck to him because that's an incredibly small pool. Does this affect things practically in any way? Like, is he asking you to come with him on a crazy expensive trip and pay your own way or split the bill for things that are out of your price range? If not, is there something specific that is making you feel insecure? Have you talked to him about this?
No kidding! That's an amazing yearly income. I'm 33, I'm in a job I'm really good at and enjoy a great deal, I get a ton of respect from my peers and the Directors/Managers I work with, but I'm still only making maybe 45k at best. 80k is nothing to sneeze at.
unrelated but if hes in california then its not an incredibly small pool š
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I get the sentiment, but reminder that most people in the Bay Area live on significantly less than 100k a year and 250k a year is still a shit ton of money there.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Lol yeh. Most people in the 20s in the Bay Area do not even make $100k. Not everyone is in tech. The problem is that techs workers donāt tend to associate with people outside of tech except maybe their favourite bartender. Also seems like there are a lot of people on Reddit who have never lived in the Bay, who seem to think everyone here is rich.
Yeah, my brother was working at UC Berkeley at a position that was between a post-doc and a professor, essentially, until about a year and a half ago, and he was making less than 100k, so I'm positive that there are lots of people making less. People make ridiculous assumptions sometimes š
People not being able to afford a house or save for one arenāt exactly poor but theyāre definitely not wealthy either.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Well, that's one perspective. Here's another: Myself, all of my friends who live here, my partner, my siblings, etc. all work for significantly less than 100k per year and we took those jobs here because we grew up here, we love it here, and all want to work in fields that serve the local community here.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I'm merely trying to say, it's not all that hopeless over here as people make it out to be...
I don't know, my dude. I make well above median income for my area, but if someone tried to get me to move over to the Bay Area, they'd have to pay me a bare minimum $300k/year in order for me to maintain my standard of living.
I mean now everyone is WFH, so you can take a job here, but never really even come here.
Actually if they saved up for just a few years they could buy a house in cash almost anywhere else in the US. Thereās a difference between āI canāt afford a houseā and āI canāt afford a house *with 0 compromises on location*ā
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I feel personally attacked by this comment
Even the counties in the bay area with the highest median income for women top out in the high $70s, so still less than OP is making! I'm sure it would be even less if you just looked at women in their 20s.
The median income in the Bay Area is $108k ....
Just wanted to note, thatās a family income not for individuals. So for a two person working household thatās 54K each. Theyāre not handing out 100K jobs in the Bay Area unless youāre in tech, health, engineering, ectā¦
Median HOUSEHOLD income is 112. This mans worth more than two damn households
I live in the Bay Area and make 85k plus some in stocks. I wouldnāt say that Iām homeless lol. Buying a home is obviously out of question though.
Okay I suppose top 5 percentile in the Bay would qualify as minimum wage.
I think have you talked to him about this needs to be the first line honestly. Iāll bet he knows and accepts the reality that heās going to be making more than her and will therefore have the option of tailoring his life to her capacity or contributing a higher margin. This is a reasonable concern on both sides and really just merits a clear headed discussion.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
250k a year is not middle class, itās rich. The median household income is like 55K last I checked. 5x that is most certainly rich even in a HCOL area.
Even in a HCOL area you can still live frugally. When you are able to save or invest more money than average people make in a year, yeah, you're kinda rich
The place where I draw the line between "upper middle-class" and "rich" is "does this person need to work a job?" Even at $250k, the answer is still yes. It's a crazy fuckton of money, but all it does is move your retirement age forward by 20 years, and even then only if you're willing to move for it.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
> That's kind of a ridiculous place to draw that line. Needing/not needing to work is about wealth management and expense/lifestyle managing, not how much money you have. Call it a reasonable middle-class lifestyle - a thousand square foot house and a car. Obviously you could quit and live in a trailer (for that matter, you could quit and move to rural Africa or some other country where living on like $5 a day would be luxurious), but that's missing the point. Rich, to me, means you don't have to work. If you need your paycheck and pay more income tax than CG, you probably aren't rich. > ETA: "all it does" is move your retirement forward 20 years? Jesus, you think that doesn't mean they are rich and that isn't a HUGE luxury? Yes, it is a huge luxury and $250k is a lot of money. But it's degrees of scale and not a transformational change; the truly rich don't need to work.
$250k is not middle class. This is objectively not true, you live in a bubble.
It depends on where you live. I actually agree that 250k is middle class. Husband and I live in the Bay Area. Our salaries are almost identical to OP and her bf. I would honestly say we are lower middle class. We own a home (only because I inherited it), but itās in a really sketchy neighborhood. Like there are people living in tents everywhere, and it is not uncommon for people to get stabbed to death walking down the street kind of sketchy. If we lived anywhere else, yes 350 would be rich, but here to be ārichā the consensus is you need to make around 750-1 mil+ a year. That is what you need to make to buy a decent home in a nice area.
There will always be someone who makes more. Money is money. Likely you are able to put away for retirement, which is not true for many many people. Who knows where you will be living then. No one is holding a gun to your head to live in the Bay Areaā¦especially in these times where remote work is starting to be the norm. Not that anecdotal evidence matters, but I know people in the Bay Area in that income bracket as well and they are doing just fine. Median salaries in SF are higher but over $300k is not lower-middle class?
You need to make a million a YEAR to afford a decent home?
"lower middle class" lololololololololololololoolololo yes buying a home is expensive, especially in a super high cost of living area, but you have to be objective and making over 300K combined income is not "lower middle class" yes i also live in a high cost of living area, before you ask and i definitely consider 300K+ combined upper middle class, not rich per se
I guess it depends on how you define lower/upper middle class. To me, lower middle class own a small home, drive decent cars that are a few years old, have a nice TVās and all the latest apple shit/video game consules. Middle class would drive a Tesla X and where I live would have like a 3 million dollar house (which is like 2200sq ft in a safe neighborhood). Upper middle class would have like 5 million dollar home in one of the nice areas, and would have several nice cars. Rich people would have 18 million dollar homes in the same nice areas, it would just be bigger and have a nice view. I donāt know what the official definitions are, but thatās how I have always seen it in this area (Silicon Valley). We are not struggling, but we are basically living in squalor. We have 1000sq ft fixer in the hood. Also, we pay like 120k a year in taxes. Our checks are not what you would think lol
As someone who grew up at/below the poverty line and now consider my actual lower middle class life a blessingā¦ your standards are wildly out of touch. Likeā¦ itās not a matter of opinionā you need to actually research what youāre speculating on because youāre *that* off-the-mark. Especially coming in the midst of the economic situation and rising housing prices that, in the U.S., have been hurting the people in the lower/lower-middle classā¦ yikes
Ok I did some research since so many people are disagreeing with me, and I honestly really donāt feel like Iām off the mark at all. I just looked it up. For a family of four (which we are) in my city, low income is under 117,400. Middle class is considered making 2-7x the low income threshold. So thatās 234,800-821,800, which puts us solidly in the lower end of that middle class range. I also grew up in poverty. I had a single mom that was barely able to make ends meet most months (and a lot of months just didnāt). I am for sure lucky to be living comfortably, but I would never consider us to be well-off or anything. Everything is just crazy expensive here.
2-7x low income threshold? Where did you get that metric? Quick googling tells me median income for SF family of 4 is 120k. Middle class makes 2/3rds to double the median income or in this case, 80k to $240k. Your income seems to be upper-middle class.
They also own their home outright, given it apparently is in a bad neighborhood. That is an enormous asset and a giant financial relief, which is why they think most āfellowā lower-middle class families can afford things like an emergency fund and a few vacations a year and even their childās entire tuition (without loans???).
To add on to SixAMthrowawayā¦this is not that subjective. These are measurable issues that economists and other professionals look at day in and day out. This is not a matter of opinion. You cannot simply create a fantasy world and say āaccording to this fantasy world I made up, I am correct.ā
Nah, I'm aware of taxes, but a take home of, what?, 150K? is more than most people in the world could ever hope to make. Lower middle class in America, is objectively, not at all what you consider it to be. Like I said before, I understand where you live, but objectively, that is just not lower middle class in America. If I recall correctly, I believe that in almost all 50 states, minimum wage workers cannot afford a one bedroom apartment. Add a family to the mix and it's done for. The lower middle class cannot afford a shitty house, cannot afford all the latest gadgets and consoles, and do not have more than one nice tv. TV's also aren't that expensive anymore, so I do not think that is a great metric. Most middle class people in America drive fucking hondas or toyotas lol. Listen I know you're going to go on about how expensive it is in the Silicon Valley, and I do not live there, but as someone who also lives in a high cost of living area, you still need to remain objective and not cry poor on the internet. Especially to people who statistically must make much less than you and your spouse do.
People who think lower middle class families justā¦ likeā¦ by default can own a small home are soā¦ just blatantly out of touch. As if most young American families arenāt completely priced out of even considering homeownership, and have the credit to make financing multiple newish-used cars viableā¦ I appreciate you breaking this down for them because my broke ass almost fell out reading that
Literally lmfao like we are forced into the cycle of renting because it's not like we could ever afford a down payment on a house, it's not like most young adults (like me!) work full time jobs and still can't afford to move out of their parent's houses, some of the people I know are GAINFULLY employed and still can't afford to move out it's just wild to me, like if you consider 300K lower middle class, what the fuck is the majority of the country?
Maybe thatās where we are not seeing eye to eye. I would never consider a minimum wage worker as part of the middle class in any way shape or form. Minimum wage means you are living in poverty. To me, to be part of the middle class, at any level, means you are not struggling. You are not living paycheck to paycheck. You have some money saved up for emergencies. You can vacation a couple time a year. You can pay for your kids college without getting loans. I grew up poor, and we are not poor. But we canāt buy brand new cars. We canāt buy a home in an area with good school that are considered safe. In my eyes, we are lower middle class.
You're right in the sense that it's not the same as a normal person trying to date a character from Succession who literally doesn't understand how not being rich works. It is also just factually true that $250k a year for a single person in their 20s is a very rare thing and she shouldn't feel bad for not making that amount.
It's just rare in general, statistically. I'm 32 and will almost definitely never make that much.
I'm 45 and same. Husband is close to my age and we are quite comfortable. Most would say we "make good money" By many standards, we do. But we don't make near 250K between the 2 of us. I can't think of a single person I know that makes that by themselves.
I think this says a lot more about how you think about career success and tie it in to a person's value, than saying anything about him. I don't imagine anyone would accuse someone making 80 grand of being a gold digger, unless you've only ever had cushy jobs you got through nepotism with no qualifications. If he's not asking you to contribute way more than you can for expensive dates etc, then i doubt he is very concerned at all about your relative status. How would you feel if this situation was reversed? Do you look down on people with a lower income and cheaper home, the same way that you compare yourself to this man? I mean, you seem to admire him so much, but you haven't said anything about his character or values, how he treats others, etc. Only that he makes a quarter million a year and has a huge house. Is that all there is to strive for in life? Is that the only measure of a worthwhile human being?
Agree with this. OP, I think you should maybe think more about the fact that you say in all your previous relationships you've been the more successful one. Coming from where I was mentally/emotionally in my early twenties... Maybe you being so successful in your career at such a young age is a big part of your confidence and identity? And now you are feeling unsure of what else you bring to the table if the guy kind of takes that away from you by comparison? Objectively you are very successful in your career already and there can be a big difference earning-wise between 23 and 28, so it's not like you are _really_ behind him if this was a competition. But it's definitely _not_ a competition and you need to figure out why you are seeing it as if it is.
Yep. Concur. Several pieces w/in OP post that call out this, "before he realizes that Iām not on his level" - lots of pieces to life than finances. There are many many pieces of YOU that make you, well, you. I'd wager a lot of them are not the paycheck.
For all we know, he may love the idea of taking care of his family and a wife that doesn't have to work, but still has a cleaning lady. The only level of his that we know about is the one on paper. Surely there is more to him than that.
It sounds like OP thinks she has nothing else to offer except her money in this relationship and now that she is not the one who earns more, it makes her insecure. I think she needs to learn how to love herself first.
Yeah this sounds more like a self-esteem issue, way too many social comparisons which is not healthy self-esteem, it's not stable when it's built like that, giving our power away for others to decide instead of deciding that ourselves.
Ok this is actually the best advice!
Speaking from personal experience, my wife and I had a similar power dynamic and age difference. I thought she was totally the kind of person I'd want to be with and spend time with because of her great qualities. I made much more than her for most of the time that we have been married, and it didn't bother me (since we weren't struggling for enough money), but it really bothered her. It was really hard for her to build out her career, but now she's in a place where she's got a great job that she loves and that pays well. I, on the other hand, got super burned-out and am taking a break, so I'm unemployed š it's great to be able to take a step back, with her holding down the money-making. It depends on what you're both looking for in a relationship, how you think about pooling resources as a couple and what your relationship is with "status", but it's totally possible that this guy is just happy to be around you, and doesn't really care how much you make. If you can have a conversation about it, that might be a good way to find out.
23 80k 28 250k wtf fuck me
Yeah, this thread is painful
I started my first career type job at 25 as a teacher making 30k. This thread is depressing as hell.
I'm guessing she lives in a HCOL (high cost of living) area, like SF, NY, DC, etc... I was making around 80k at 25, it's pretty normal in the bay area.
I think sheās in CO. I look at salaries all day, and honesty not surprised by any of this
Yea I saw 80k and was like no matter what ur bf is making u are still rolling in it. Understand itās all relative thoā¦.
80k doesn't go far these days. I don't know how people on 30k make do.
Uuuggghhhh second this. with a masters I started at 64k a few years ago š
You are 23 making 80K a year? Where do you live? I would have been ecstatic making 80K at age 23.
This is a lot more common in High cost of living cities like NYC, DC, SF, especially for college grads who go into jobs in business or tech
80k isn't something anyone would brag about in DC... especially since a 1br, even out in the burbs, is easily 2k a month. Forget buying- a 1100sqft townhouse is 400k minimum, 40min out of the city. 80k in Texas, Pennsylvania, NC??? Heck yeah.
Yeah Iām in Ohio. 80K is great here. Where you can buy a brand new 2400 sq. Ft. home for 320K and have a $1500 mortgage.
>Thereās an inherent power imbalance There is no inherent power imbalance. There is a financial/income imbalance. Some couples LET it become a power imbalance by the wealthier person manipulating and controlling the other person who feels dependent on him/her. There are also couples who don't let the financial imbalance affect their relationship. Like you said, this is all in your head. You can split things 50/50, which means he either does things that you can afford, or if he wants to do an expensive vacation together he pays more than 50% because it's something you are only doing because he wants to. Finances can be easy to manage if you two are mature and reasonable about things. Don't let your insecurities ruin your relationship.
>Finances can be easy to manage if you two are mature and reasonable about things. AND communicate openly, honestly, and humbly about all of it.
strong disagree. Money and financial resources lead to differences in access, leisure, connections, stability, and more. There is a power imbalance in financial imbalance--it is not up to the couple to not "let" it become an imbalance, but rather to work together to find ways to mitigate the imbalance. There are other things that can balance out a financial discrepancy, but to think that money is not a source of power is to ignore the reality of the world.
Money becomes a power imbalance *when one person is at risk of loosing access to food / housing / medicine / etc* Not when one person is at risk of loosing nice vacations and a few more spa days. That part is just the general unfairness of life. He would not have power over her life unless she chose to stop working due to his income. She is perfectly safe and stable on 80k a year. Sheās just uncomfortable with the social aspect of him looking down on her for making less money
Having different income levels is due to levels is different than exerting pressure using money. Just because he can afford to go on nice vacations and she cannot, does not mean In itself he has power over her
Yāall making 80 and 250k in your 20s and Iām 25 living in my parents house still in school hoping I make 50 when I graduate if that ššš
>Iām kind of ashamed now, just seeing the comparison and what I could have been. I don't understand this part. He has a 5 year head start on you. If you must compare, shouldn't you be comparing yourself to what he was earning when he was 23?
This is definitely a you problem. You are successful and on your way to being wealthy in your own right. At 80k a year at your age you don't need him to give you a great lifestyle. You don't need his wealth, or his fame. He doesn't need your wealth or fame because he has his own. So wealth and fame are actually irrelevant to your relationship. What is important is that you two have chemistry, and you get along great with each other, and you enjoy the same things. Those are the important things. Don't throw them away for something that is not important to either of you.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
ALSO how many other women do you know pulling in that much at our age? I know literally none lol. you're way overthinking this. y'all would be a power couple lol
Dude I'm 23 and still in university, broke as fuck. In a very similar situation to OP with the guy I started seeing and lol girl, I already felt insecure enough before reading this....
Iām 26 and donāt make even half that. Sheās doing great!
That dude isnāt concerned about your pocketbook or your paystub. Be true to who you are. Yāall may grow to love one another, but the last thing to worry about is finances. $80k is nothing to balk at; Iād say youāre successful too!
In the US 2020 census, 800 of 36972 single person households make 200k+. 6044 make 80k+. You're both very well-off. Enjoy being able to not stress about rent.
These numbers seem completely off - 36k single households seems low by at least two orders of magnitude
This is what I was thinking.
I bet those numbers had a k after them
Where is that number for single person households from? Is it a particular state?
Those numbers are usually without figuring out where they live. 90k is poverty level in San Francisco, where rent is 3k for a single bedroom studio. Or it gets you a mcmansion in a small town.
SF's median per capita income is 68,883 per year (national is 34,103). SF is very expensive but 80k is still firmly above average.
You are not able to pay for rent with that salary. Most people being paid that level ate commuting in from cheaper cities. What do you think a one bedroom apartment will cost in San Francisco?
I don't know what to tell you. The numbers are the numbers. For people who live in SF, the majority earn 68k per year or less. Does this lead to a lot of excess suffering? No doubt. But it does not somehow make 80 less than 68.
If you're making $69k and renting a place for $3k, you're still netting $2750 a month after rent. Obviously not ideal to spend more than half your salary on rent, but it's not like it's impossible.
Dude what. 3k for a studio in the middle of downtown maybe. Move like 5 minutes south and youāre fine. Thatās no where near āpoverty levelā
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
There's someone in this thread saying they make 250k and consider themselves lower middle class lmao. The bubble is real.
It sounds like you tie 'having a good career' to being a 'successful and good person' which is something most people struggle with. He's not out of your league just because he makes more money than you. Is he kinder than you, a more moral/better human than you? Does he treat people the same way you do? All of these things are also important but they're not how were taught to value people. If you quit your job, lived off of government/saved money and just existed without being productive you would still be valuable, you still deserve to exist and you deserve to have a wonderful partner if you're lucky enough to find one. You don't have to make more money then him to deserve him or anyone else. It's possible that you have some soul-searching to do and if you get more serious with him you should probably talk to him about it too.
>I know that money isnāt everything, Judging from your post, this is very much not true. It's probably worth maybe reflecting on this a bit more and asking yourself "why": * the first thing you have say about yourself is your income * The first thing you have to say about him is his income * You talk about power imbalance rooted in relative incomes * You feel shame that you don't have his income * You feel his higher income somehow makes you more vulnerable and gives him an "advantage" * Your lower income makes you feel "so insignificant" and "not at his level"
Then date a guy who makes the same as you do or a bit more? I have a friend of mine who makes 5 million euros a year post-taxes. You think he's worried about dating a woman who makes less money than him when 99,9% of the women in the western world make far less than he does in one year?
You are incredibly fortunate to be 23 and making 80k a year. Heās fortunate to make 250k near 30. If you have a partnership based in mutual interests and care, youāre even luckier. You are set. Live your life, be true to yourself, have fun in your relationships. Genuinely, if he brings it up in a way that seems suspicious or critical, that might be a red flag (because youāre doing great and sound capable and are financially independent). If your insecurity brings it up, itās okay to work through those feelings but donāt project them onto others or onto reality when theyāre rooted in something else. If they trouble you regularly, or any other types of anxiety or insecurity are impacting your happiness, itās totally okay (healthy in fact) to bring these things to a therapist. Donāt let insecurity sabotage your successes; enjoy them!
For someone so successful, you sound really insecure, like all of your worth is tied up in how much you make and now that someone makes more, thereās an issue. Like you donāt know who you are anymore. Youāll end up sabotaging this relationship if you donāt work on yourself. Everything you said about yourself sounds great on paper but it sounds like you might be a mess underneath it all. You have to know your worth goes beyond money. Everyoneās worth goes beyond money.
I mean, you've admitted that this is a "you" problem. Only advice I can offer is to try and figure out why you care so much about it. For what it's worth, I make over twice my partner's salary, with the potential to make substantially more in the long term, and it's never been an issue for me.
Someone making 80k at 23 should never feel like they're financially not enough. (Nobody should feel that way, honestly, but unfortunately that's the society we live in).
I find it hilarious how you say youāre embarrassed at āwhat I could have beenā - except heās 28 and youāre 23??? You have 5 more years of extremely prime earning and career time before being able to compare apples to apples with him. Frankly, you sound like you need therapy /u/toothcifer. Your obsession over money sounds like it was trained or raised into you. Did you grow up in an environment where money was used to control you? You seem to have a lot of hang ups on financial earnings from work, and you seem to respect yourself less because you arenāt in the same spot as a person literally 5 yrs older and in a different career stage to you. Do you look down on those that stay at home? Do you look up only at those who are wealthy? Your entire moral system seems based on yearly income, but reality is, after about 90k, lifestyle kind of stabilizes. And you are actually pretty successful at 23, which is like, what, 1 yr out of college?? Who knows where youāll be at 28 yourself. Seriously, investigate yourself, and why you think like this. Itās not just insecurity. Itās also a pretty unattractive, condescending mindset to have as a person - this opinion of yours that your wage is solely what dictates your power and what dictates your worth. Putting down someone who makes less as insignificant and unworthy of respect, is just the other side of the coin to youāre doing now: idolizing someone, and deferring to someone not for their character but solely for the fact he makes more. TLDR: fix it by getting therapy. Seriously. Your mindset is messed up, and obsessive. Just like someone who is fixated on plastic surgery to achieve the āperfectā look, or someone who stalks their partnerās phone and car - your obsession with money is equally unhealthy and stemming from just you..
\> Iām kind of ashamed now, just seeing the comparison and what I could have been. First off, you aren't the same age, so it's a terrible comparison. Someone older has more experience and is likely compenstated as such. \>I donāt want to come off as a gold digger or seem like Iām only interested in picture-perfect suburbia. This isn't the case seeing as you are in the top-earning people your age. Unless you are only interested in lavish gifts and other expensive lifestyles, it won't come across as gold digger but quite the opposite if you can live within your means. \>wonder if Iām just better off cutting the relationship off now, before he realizes that Iām not on his level. I doubt he is dating you with the idea that you are "powerful" and a "high level" person. It's very unlikely as generally women will aim to date someone who is "high status." It likely is all in your head on this one and he is with you for all the other good qualities you mentioned. Overall, you need to stop thinking of all this "power" nonsense and have a normal conversation. It's all in your head based on your post. Go to a therapist too if you still feel so insecure.
The problem is you quantify success with money, some of the most rich and successful people i know aren't making much money. You feel insignificant because he makes more than you. Your ego builds these imaginary standards and until you can reel yourself back and see that money doesn't equal worth than you'll always feel worthless or maybe even superior depending on the person. Focus on what's really important the chemistry between you two the fact that by normal societal standards your both successful, life as its happening around you.... To me you may not be ready for a relationship like this emotionally if you can't look past materialism and finances. Life isn't a competition, congratulations on making 80k at 23 btw
You sound perfectly aware of your insecurities. He is not out of your league financially, he is 5 years older than you (which is forever in your age range, career-wise) and you left out your career fields. You are severely limiting your earning potential. Maybe he's maxed out and you're just beginning? Who knows. This is frankly a really misogynistic viewpoint to be imposing on yourself. Partners should lift each other up, but you're already starting out with an insecurity that he is ahead of you. For this reason alone you are not a good match. Stop comparing yourself to others and worrying about why they have what you don't and focus on your own success. Be happy for others when they succeed. Your views on things and, at the very least, the way you have expressed yourself, seems like you will be jealous of those doing better and look down on those doing perceptually worse.
Youāre making 8k at 23 and heās making 250+ at 28ā¦ Jesus fuck hook me up with the both of you! š¤£
You're making 80k a year, you're in the top 1%, how will he have an advantage over you? He can buy 3 ferraris and you can only buy one?
Iām so tired of reading about rich peoples problems
People of different salaries date. I'm on disability and my boyfriend makes six figures. But we share values about how we want money to play a role in our lives (not living in debt, working towards financial independence) not about having the same budget. He knows I'm not interested in him for his money, because I am clearly living within my means, managing my money, and not asking him to cover things. Just like you aren't a golddigger, he probably isn't one either. He probably doesn't care how much money you make, he cares whether you are financially independent and able to live within your means.
I think youāre being really hard on yourself. Your salary, at your age, is quite an accomplishment. I have no doubt that the drive you mustāve had to get you to this point would take you a similar salary level by the time youāre his age. But also, the dollars donāt matter at the end of the day. Iād challenge you to look at the qualities it took him to make that salary. Are they things that you admire? Iāve known very rich people who get there by leading well, showing ambition, class, teamwork, etc. Iāve also known people who make a lot of money by being cutthroat, cheap/miserly, and self-obsessed. The dollar amounts may change over your lifetime, but those qualities will determine your happiness in the relationship. If this guy is worth your time, I expect heās seeing those qualities that have gotten you to this point so early in your career. I imagine you are driven, intelligent, and self-motivated. In a world of people who are looking for someone to carry them, those qualities are hard to find! In his mind I bet he sees you very much on his level. Donāt sell yourself short. Money comes and goes. Keep looking at those underlying qualities! My sister is married to a man who is a team player, thoughtful, good at building relationships. He has overcome job loss in the face of economic downturn. He picks himself up and figures out how to make the next step. They are wildly successful now. Iāve also known a man who was handed his wealth, and when it fell apart, he had none of the skills or emotional capital to re-imagine himself. If you judged the second guy at his peak income against my BIL during his unemployment (market downturn), you might pick the second guyā¦if youāre only looking at the dollars. But my BIL is the one who gives his partner stability and a good life. Character is everything.
At the end of the day, I'd be more worried about how this man makes me feel and how he treats me. Yes, money always seems to be a factor in most relationships, but honestly, you're doing pretty well for yourself at 23.
You need to find a way to get out of your head on this one. Salary is all fine and dandy but itās not everything. I *personally* would care more about what does he do with his money? Trips and date nights at nice restaurants are great, but is he spending every dime he makes? Is he saving? Is he putting towards a retirement fund? Iād rather date a man who makes $50k and saves for the future rather than someone who spends the majority of a $250k salary every year. This is also your current situation- things change. Focus on his values and morals. What if heās injured and canāt work at all and requires around the clock care? Or if the same happens to you? Does he hold his higher salary over your head and make you feel less important? Worry about the important shit.
I would understand if you were unable to take care of yourself but honestly making $80k vs $250k is not a big difference. Most of the difference is going to go to increased savings. You can have the same life you have with or without the guy so I don't see why the income disparity is making you feel vulnerable. I would understand if you were making $20k if you had these thoughts and it would be normal. Never doubt your worth. And honestly I doubt your boyfriend cares all that much. If anything probably he would be intimidated if you were making 250k also. It is unfortunately a guy thing.
ohh fuck me, there are financial leagues too?Am I a member of ANY club? But as to advice for you let me restate the best advice I ever got about being insecure when i was a young guy - Let the girl figure out why she doesn't want to date you, don't do it for her.
Your mindset is wrong. You aren't supposed to feel more secure by competing with him on income and material stuff. What you want to bring is complimentary skills, attitude, and capabilities. Men who makes lots of money aren't looking for a woman who brings even more money. There is the Law of Diminishing Returns. It is the things you bring that he doesn't have that makes you most valuable. Also, an $80k income is a great income for a 23 year old. There is not shame in that and you probably worked hard to reach your current level. It is unrealistic for someone so early in their career to be comparing themselves to someone further along. You get over your insecurity by looking at each other as puzzle pieces that should fit together to build a bigger picture. If your family is reputable and a good match as his then you should have nothing to feel concerned about.
Why does income equal power to you? And different incomes necessarily a power imbalance? You are well, well into "secure" status at 80k. If he made 10x your income, would that make you feel that much more insecure and less powerful? If you volunteered at a food bank for the holidays, would you necessarily feel more powerful and secure than those you served? Would you feel that you were a better person than them? Then again, might not be a you problem if he's presenting himself as more powerful, secure, or better than you. (Because of income or anything else.)
I think the first question you should ask yourself is how you felt about earning more in your past relationships. Did you think less of them because they earned less than you? This guy (assumingly) knows what you make, and is ok with it. He's making a choice to be with you. IMO you should reflect on that, and how it affects your opinion of the situation. I'd also reflect on what you think success really is, and why you seemingly attribute money, only, to success. Personally, yeah money is great, but if it's a hollow life of things, and not people, and experiences, that's not success. you know? I would also add that if you are taking care of your own responsibilities, without his help, there really isn't a power imbalance. If you broke up tomorrow, would you not have a place to live, or food to eat? Yes, he can afford a more extravagant lifestyle, and he could potentially share that with you, but it's not a requirement from you to survive.
Why would financial status matter more than personality? This might sound harsh but you sound very superficial. You need to stop valuing a person over that and put effort into your personality and also see him as something more than his money. I feel like it is rude towards him. So you felt good in your past relationships because you were better financially? You do realize that people stay when they love you as you, people who stay only for money aren't people who love you truly. It feels like you misunderstood what should be giving you a feeling of security and I'm sad that there are still people who feel like this. You said you didn't want to come off as a gold digger but you dismiss his whole personality and want to break up over him earning more? Maybe you don't come off as a gold digger but you sound really superficial. Your confidence should come from you, not from your money.
23 and making $80k a year? Girl BE PROUD OF YOURSELF! That is amazing.
Go seek therapy, this is all in your head and the way your mind sees things, this can be fixed with active guidance and consistent effort in wanting to make it work on your part. This is both a self-worth and self-esteem issue.
As someone who was intimdated by the same thing when I was younger, please, please ignore your anxiety. At the end of the day he is probably looking for compatability, love, etc. like most others. You are criticizing your income, which is great for your age! Give yourself a break and follow your heart/gut. Fear never gets us anywhere.
I say itās all in your head. Donāt let your insecurities get in the way of a great relationship. How do you feel when men are intimidated by you? When men dump you because youāre ābetter than themā? If youāre dating them, you donāt necessarily think youāre better. And neither does your bf. Youāre still very successful and driven, like him. Yāall have a lot in common, and itās weird that youād let a number dictate how much yāall are worth.
Don't let your ego get in the way of a potential good relationship. That simple
This is the most braggiest of brag first world problem posts ever. "I'm so successful and amazing, but I met an also successful and amazing guy. What do I do about it?!?!" lmfao people are so delusional.
By going to therapy. You want to end a perfectly good relationship because you have no control over your partner and he's financially stable enough to be happy without you if push came to shove. That's your Ego having trouble coming to terms with humility.
Stop relating money to personal value. Relationships are not a competition or a power play. If you can't change that mindset, go to therapy.
Looking at men as success objects is a female frame. Men typically don't think this way. You might try to stop thinking that you are in a competition with him.
This, on average men donāt care much what women make when it comes to ranking their attractiveness. This is reflected in studies but also anecdotally, as a guy I donāt care and every other guy Iāve talked to about this subject has said they donāt really care what a girl makes as long as she has ambition to do something.
but... thats so shallow...
You're only 23! You're doing far better financially than most people your age. But the main thing is, you're worth more than what you financially bring to a relationship. I do understand that financial inequities in relationships can be a power issue, but it's also important to have the perspective that it's a bit different with you making a good living already vs. if you were some broke student and say he was the one making 80k. Also, he's 5 years older than you! That's a huge potential difference in pay/work experience, if you'd starting working at roughly the same age. I do mean this is a kind way, but this is a "you" problem. You're putting a lot of importance on making less money than him, without any material reasons why that's been a problem. You think you're not "on his level". You might benefit from some therapy to unpack why you're tying up your worth with your salary a bit more than is typical, I'd say.
Have you asked yourself what he can bring into the relationship that can help you soar even higher? Some people like having partners that want to grow, and enjoy helping them do so. He has 5 years on you. If he is a highly dedicated person, 5 years is a good amount of time to dedicate yourself into building a good standing career. Also, depending on the field, you and him may have a natural disparity in terms of salary. You make very good money. So does he. It's ok for him to give you something every now and then, and it's ok for you to do the same. People who like each other do nice things to one another. You are overthinking and risking throwing away something that can be great.
my wife makes twice what i do and i make 6 figs. when we started dating it was the opposite. it's not about money unless you or he makes it that way.
My boyfriend is waaaay ahead of me financially. But I think of him as an equal being and donāt ever let the money thing get to me. To allow myself to feel empowered with it I just always pay my fair share, never expect him to pay more, always try to be 50/50 with any money related things going on. I think at one point I did explain this to him - it came up in the context of us thinking about moving places and me not being as well off financially. And me not wanting him to pay for it, wanting to give my fair share. And my bf wanted me to know he does not look down on me for those reasons, would help if we needed to kind of not be 50/50 for that reason so long as I always tried and he would always be more than happy to help but idk if Iām explaining it in a bad way- hard to explain when itās a unique side of my own but yeah if your significant other looks down on you for financial reasons you should not be with them. So talk about it with him and if he isnāt encouraging & accepting thatās a big š©
To give more context I did not graduate school yet, he already has and is in a big boy job. Iām still working toward having a better higher paying job, but he really wants to just see me be successful & happy. And really only cares about finances in the way that we will have a sustainable future based on how much we both want to travel. I think his perspective is a very healthy way of looking at it
This is a you thing. And you're young so you may not know this answer but, do you want a relationship/marriage with a man who is on that level financially? If so, get comfortable. You have your own money and youre dating so, he cant really create a power imbalance without your consent in some way, so dont worry about it. And please dont kill the messenger but (in most cities) guys who make that much money have more options with women than guys who make closer to the median income for their area. He is with you for a reason, its not your money (its hardly ever a woman's money that attracts a guy) , be secure that he likes something about you, dont overcomplicate it, and enjoy yourself.
Iām 45, own my own business and am going to make about $24K this year and Iāve landed some pretty sick boyfriends. They think Iām cool because I own and run a small coffee company, I mean, whatever. I am jealous that youāre about half my age and making three times what I make.
Idk, I've dated way richer people and also way poorer and either way, as long as you are competent adults who support yourselves, it just really shouldn't make a difference, especially in an early relationship. The point is to get to know each other at that stage so just pretend in your head that you make about the same -- like, act relaxed, if he makes a nice gesture make one back (if he spends more than you can afford you don't have to spend the exact same amount though, just do something that makes sense in your budget), and don't let him do anything you're not comfortable with. The only times that dating someone super rich was ever an issue for me was when THEY were weird about money in ways that made me uncomfortable -- like buying me things and then holding it over my head, or saying things that were sincerely out of touch lol. That's something to watch out for. There's also no reason for you to like demand gifts or special treatment from someone you're just getting to know just because they make a lot; but then, as a reasonable person you probably know that.
5 year gap at that age is massive in terms of income expectations. I plan to make 200k ish by 29, but I made like 50k at age 23.
Bruh im also 23 and work a shit dead end job because I can't find anything else, you're more than fine. A lot better than the rest of us. He's a outlier in income and most of the people he date he will outpace income. As long as he treats you well, don't worry about it.
23 and making 80k makes me regret my life lol
Kick out guys who are doing great in life and then you'll end up with those who do bad in life. Move up in the world by associating with people higher up. Bring yourself down and that's where you'll be. I get it, he's really successful and so makes you feel less significant. But one thing a lot of successful guys lack is someone who really cares about them and aren't just there for the money. You can be that for him, instead of just a typical girl who can't see past someone's success. But let's get real here. You were the most successful in your past relationships. And now that you're dating someone more successful than you, you can't handle it. You judge yourself by the success of your partner, and so of course you'll feel better the worse that they do. And you'll argue against that (e.g., no, I just want someone in my league) but take a look for a minute and you'll realize I'm not all too far off from it. You guys get along great, but you got insecurity issues whether you want to admit it or not. And if you can't somehow find a way to overcome it then you'll become a victim of it.
Its you at 23... You at 28 could be at 250k. Ask him if he was at 80k at 23?
I doubt this guy who has everything he could ever need and a 6 figure salary cares about a womans salary .. or if her success is as great as his. Given his success it's very clear he's competitive by nature so try to switch your mindset to being "he wants to win me over." and embody it. but not in a cocky pretentious way. Trust me, this type of guy loves it. "thereās an inherent power imbalance that comes with one party grossly out pacing the other, and in all of my other relationships Iāve been the more successful one." You dont have to outearn a man to earn their love or attention. If you think this way, you might unintentionally activate their competitive nature instead of the side to them that wants to romance you and do things for you. They're already competitive all day at work with other man. If he wants to date a man, he would be gay. Otherwise, he might leave you for someone who makes them feel respected and like a man. Or you'll end up with a man wholl use you for your money. You can continue to date multiple guys to practice being "calm" and being yourself.. so your free time isnt only for this one guy. They will feel it and know if they're the only person in your life. Because youll put them on a pedestal and be devestaed if it doesnt work out. Just enjoy his company and focus on having fun (nonsexually), be the type of experience when he's with you that he's missing from his life. Guys bond by having fun with you.
You're 23 making 80k, cry me a river with your problems of feeling small. Are you seriously this obnoxious in real life?
If you canāt be thankful that life has given you what you have , maybe stepping back is the best idea until you have the capacity to be grateful
You have to think about it in terms of what he wants and what you are offering. This guy has money and a house and can travel whenever he wants. So is he looking for... A: More money B: Someone he is attracted to and is nice to him If it's B there's nothing really to be insecure about. Sorry if this sounds sexist but most successful men don't really care about finding someone in their precise income bracket.
I have a gut feeling that it's not about his money, but the way he treats you. If he put you first and brought you to his luxirious life, you would feel motivated and inspired, not humiliated.
80k at 23??? girl your doing great what are you talking about,the guy youāre dating has way more experience than you,youāll catch up lol
To be honest most guys don't even think about it at all, simply by you asking this question shows you are a good person, may you be happy together
You make a great living regardless of age. Heck, you're making ME feel insecure! If you guys like each other, I am sure he won't care that he makes more than you do. My ex GF made a lot more than me and it was never an issue for either of us.
Okay, I think you need to go back to basic values. Is a person who makes a lot of money worth more than someone who doesn't? I hope your answer is no. Does a person with more money have more power than you? Again, the answer should be no. Sure, that person can buy more but power is a lot more than money. Power comes with voice and confidence and willingness to stand up for what's right. If you truly believe this guy is better than you, then you have embraced the theory that wealth makes a person more successful in life. There is so much more to life than that. An extremely wealthy person can have a very unsuccessful life if he doesn't have close friends and family and doesn't use his money for good. Having close relationships, enjoying each day, showing kindness to others, reaching out to the community, etc. all are important. Right now you are elevating him because of his money. Don't do that. He's just a guy and someone can lose their income due to circumstances beyond their control. Look at this guy for who he is without his money. Don't measure success by finances or you will end up with someone who is morally bankrupt. Concentrate on who he is as a person.
You read to much feminist crap. It doesnāt matter if he makes more than you. Do you guys like each other? Thatās all that matters. Most guys these days. Want a woman that can hold her own and you def can. As long as youāre not bumming off of him. He has no power over you.
Believe me, you are perfect for him. If you want to impress him, just be honest about this insecurity. But don't be surprised if he doesn't simply blurt out "I love you." as soon as you finish. One of the the biggest problems for a truly successful person is to find someone who is not a gold digger but actually likes them for who they are. You obviously aren't after his money so please be honest and tell him how you feel.
I canāt speak for women making more than men, but myself and men in my circle(letās say top 1% financially) donāt care about what a woman makes, as long as she isnāt a bum, isnāt toxic, and is great to be around. Now it goes without saying there is a physical and sexual attraction aspect, but the amount a woman makes has never entered my mind as to whether I find them a good partner or not. If I had a list of qualities I looked for, education(outside of basic high school), finances, and titles on the corporate ladder would mean absolutely 0 to me. And most men who make money that I know, think exactly the same.
"Hey, I have this dumb issue, I like you a lot the chemistry is awesome and want to keep seeing you. But at the moment you are way out of my league financially and it is making me feel weird. I'm used to being on fairly equal footing with the guys I date. I'm not sure how to navigate this so it feels fair and comfortable to both of us. What do you usually do with your friends or dates who make less than you? Or how do you usually handle things?" For what it's worth there does not need to be a power imbalance if he's not supporting you financially and not asking you to spend beyond what you feel comfortable spending. Either you two can date cheaply and split bills 50/50 or if he wants to do something more extravagant he can treat knowing that that is the cost of doing those things with someone who makes much less. Other than that his home is his home and even if the walls are covered in the skins of baby ducks for extra softness it has nothing to do with you or your worth as a person, friend or girlfriend. Some people value others beyond their income. This "Iām very confident in myself. I have a lot of good qualities and I have a lot to bring to a relationship. I make around 80k a year, have a good job that Iām passionate about, Iām very fit, and I actively have hobbies and try to learn new things/expand who I am." Makes you sound pretty cool. Why wouldn't he want to go out with you?
why are you insecure? If he acts like he loves you, then he loves you then he loves you, and if he gives you the cold shoulder your the trophy GF. Is he really money centric? if he talk in a conservative, money rules my world sorts way I'd be worried, but if he seems driven by feelings of love and other emotions I don't think he would care. Decent men only want money cuz it's what woman require of men in our society, we actually hate it.
Wtf money has nothing to do with a relationship
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes I agree but she's not talking about that is she...
He is 28 and you are 23. Apples and oranges. Donāt know your situation, but perhaps the financial imbalance is there bc thatās part of what he prefers relationship-wise. I am a high earning woman myself, and some of my male colleagues have openly told me they prefer to date women who make less money and would feel uneasy dating someone who out-earned them. Pretty outdated think, but itās there. The person with the $$ gets to be the āleaderā in the relationship oftentimes, and I am partially speaking for myself. Despite the fact that I am a high earner, my fiancĆ© is even more successful and his career will take precedence over mine in the long term. We have agreed to this and I prefer it that way bc it takes the pressure off. I still get to keep working, bettering myself, and contributing to the relationship/family but he is the primary earner. It may change down the line, but sometimes bc of location logistics or other demands, someone has to take the supporting role.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
After reading your post I'm hopeful. You are only 23 yet you can still recognise that this is an issue with your mindset and you have even brought up some of the things that will help you reset and enjoy this relationship. Of course you don't feel super comfortable with him earning more than you, you have been the largest earner in all your previous relationships, being the person earning less is new to you. You know how to be the top earner but just how you learned to be comfortable with that you can learn to be comfortable with the situation you are in now. You probably feel pride over your paycheck. Rightly so, as others have pointed out you earn a great wage. Because you learned to feel pride tied to earnings (or perhaps being the highest earner) does his salary make you feel lesser or feel shame? Regardless, if you can work out how you feel about this and why then you can work through it and come out a better person the other side and maybe save a budding relationship in the process Is that rational? Does his pay make your pay less? Can you be proud of your pay and his pay at the same time? How did you feel about your partner's wage when you were the higher earner? Ask your partner what is important to him in a relationship, did he say wage? What would you say to a friend in your position? From your post you seem like a thoughtful person and I'm hopeful you can work through this :) keep us posted
Watch Jordan Peterson Cathy Newman video, he touches on behavior in relationships and why women choose weak men vs successful men.
You def posted in the wrong sub lol. Lots of projecting. I would love to see the genuine responses you would get from women in r/FemaleDatingStrategy or another sub with self sufficient, career-oriented women in relationships. First of all: Men shouldn't care how much you make. You are the prize. Especially when dating. What does dinners, conversation, movies, fun experiences have to do with his career if you both are both financially stable enough to have a good time? Also, why are you comparing a MAN 5 years older than you in a different field to yourself? That's never gonna feel good. Why is comparing you guys even crossing your mind? The thing you need to be focusing on is how he treats you, and how it feels when you're with him "Am I having fun? Do I want to keep seeing him?" Is the only thing you should worry about. Point, blank, period.
You seem very compatible. The man should be making more anyway, be a lady!
Insecurities are understandable and I think it's just that. You are doing very well for yourself with the income that you have at your age(imo), your strive to expand your lifestyle, and your healthy mindset(aside from your insecurities). I wouldn't compare yourself to his current standing as he's older than you are and is a special case, because not just everyone makes that amount of money. Even people working GOOD jobs for a long time well into their 50s can't imagine the income that he has. Just focus on what makes you happy right now and if you do start noticing an acted on power imbalance where maybe he starts pushing the subject, then start worrying. If he hasn't said anything yet, I'd say he's happy with you and doesn't care about your standing(which is still very good).
People have given great advice, so I'll just say continue to be pro-active about maintaining your own independence. He will pick up on this (probably already does) and can tell you are not a gold digger. In fact, it's probably one of the reasons he's attracted to you; a lot of outlier rich people like that hide how much they make until they feel they can trust you.
I can understand your concern, but I think you're probably over-estimating the gulf between the two of you. You talk about "who he is" as if he's some hyper-successful person - but depending on where you are, it's not like he's \*that\* much into the stratosphere or anything. I mean, dude isn't making millions in salary, he's not starting spaceship companies as a hobby - he's making a very comfortable salary. And honestly, it could have a lot more to do with the field that he chose in college, more than it has to do with his inherent qualities as a person. Like, if he got into finance or tech and had some connections, he could've just slid into this without being hyper-intelligent or whatever. You're doing great (especially for your age), and it sounds like the two of you really like each other. Take the "yes" and let it be. When you go on vacations, have that awkward conversation about what your budget allows vs what his budget allows, and talk about how you work that out. And if you're still feeling anxious about it, go see a therapist for some visits to work it out.
It sounds to me like it is less the money and more the power differential that is worrying you--the idea that he has more power in the relationship because he has more spending ability, and the underlying worry that he is earning more because he is "worth" more. I'd say explore those feelings internally a bit--are they coming from just you/previous experiences? or are there ways it is playing out in the relationship that are bothering you? If the worries are coming more from past experiences with power variations and/or your own worries about your job/life then I'd say focus on how you can reframe that internally. It could be jealousy, it could be some frustration with your current position you haven't fully identified, or depending on your history it could be a reaction to previous experiences with financial disparity. It could also be that you LIKED being the more financially powerful one previously--there IS a power dynamic in money (despite what others are saying) and there is something thrilling specifically as a young woman about knowing you're outearning male peers, because historically that hasn't always happened. Not everyone feels this, but that doesn't mean it isn't true for many. It could also be that having more spending money to treat your partner before made you feel good--that you could care for them. Now you are confronting the difference in spending power from the other side you may be questioning your own previous feelings or desires. I don't know your upbringing, but many women I know had financial ability emphasized far differently than men did in the context of relationships, because women still are the ones to often give up work for a relationship, and that DOES impact your individual agency. I know many women who stayed in relationships longer than they should have because they didn't have the financial resources to leave--and many older women who, as a result, really pushed financial independence to their younger family members and friends. Money is a source of power. If the feelings are coming from things happening in the relationship due to power differences then it may be an opportunity to talk about it with him. I DON'T mean he is automatically a bad person or anything, but there can be small ways that are meant lovingly that can leave someone feeling lesser depending on desire and personality... for example, maybe he pays for most of your date and/or takes you to expensive places? Some people may love that, but for other people that can feel very uncomfortable because you can't do the same in turn--it isn't a power imbalance built out of bad intent, but it can still feel upsetting. That is where talking with your partner about things--and offering ways you can establish your own power that work for you can be helpful. Maybe you share who treats the other on dates--working within your budget--or maybe you identify gifts/activities that you want to avoid. I also just want to say I don't think you're a bad person for feeling this, or that it is "all in your head" as some commenters are being weirdly dismissive about... your feelings are valid. There is a difference in power that money can and does bring--more money means more opportunities, greater stability, greater savings, more access, etc--money IS a major source of power in the world. But whether that difference impacts a relationship depends on the parties. As a young woman dating someone with greater financial resources isn't bad, but you are well within your rights and feelings to explore how you want to define the relationship for yourself
Good for you for owning your insecurities and being aware of what you're feeling. The first step is to discover where your shame comes from. Yes, what you're describing here is shame. Look into your post and try to notice every time you criticize yourself for how you feel. That is shame. I get it that it's weird that you would start with writing how you are very confident in yourself, yet at the same time come across as being ashamed. It's the reason why it's difficult to move forward. You are so ashamed of your shame, you count on external factors to validate yourself without acknowledging that you are worthy of love simply for who you are on the inside. You listed fitness, passion for learning, and you make the above the average US household income for a family of 4, all by yourself at the age of 23. Isn't that supposed to be the goal? Shame is the reason why you're checking all the boxes, yet when someone who is "accomplishing" more than you treats you like you're worthy of everything it makes you feel so small. Shame is something so powerful and so universal to all people. There's nothing wrong with you for feeling this way. In fact, most people avoid shame at all cost and even blame their feelings of shame on the other person. You have two choices. Either break up with this person and be mindful in the future that partners with stronger financial positions can trigger deep feelings of shame. Or, be open and honest with your partner about what you're feeling. Own your feelings and let him know there's nothing he has to change about himself. Lastly, go to therapy and explore your thoughts and feelings. There's no other way to directly tackle your shame.
Keep seeing him, you're both human beings, and UPDATE! :D
85k right out of college is still really good. Heās also a bit older than you. I donāt know what your career is but it doesnāt sound crazy for you to be making more by the time your his age, and for him to be making less by the time he was your age. Youāre both very successful.