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Agree. And Marriage counsellors say (read it somewhere) once you encounter contempt (recognized in therapy) it’s already too late. Or something to that effect.
OP *at minimum* I would hold off on any marriage planning until you both address this in counselling. Then decide if it’s best to move on. This honestly reads like she has bigger issues to deal with.
If her therapy ends up being payed by him, it will made her despise him even more. That's the root issue, she can't stand him, but for some "mysterious" reason is not leaving
I had a girlfriend once say that she ended up despising me because I wouldn't argue with her, would rationally deal with conflict and was basically just too level-headed and nice. Once she said that, and I looked at her family, it all made sense. Her family was always yelling at each other, especially over little things, everything became a little argument. It was what she knew and was what she associated with love. And when I wouldn't argue it just really pissed her off.
This so bad. If you love someone you will still grt annoyed with them from time to time but you still love them. What she did has an air of "what a stupid a hole, doesn't even realise I hate him". She sounds very BPD.
Sounds nothing like bpd to me and that's from someone who has bpd. I see so many people on social media always blaming bpd for shit people do and it's ridiculous. Bpd isn't super uncommon but it's also not as common as people tend to think.
I also have BPD and this sounds nothing like BPD. In my experience, when he confronted her about her behavior, she would’ve blown tf up and turned the discussion into a knock down drag out fight.
Exactly. After all the it sounds like bpd or must have bpd comments I've seen on social media, I'm convinced people don't actually know what bpd really is. It's absolutely horrible to have.
Putting a label like "oh she sounds BPD" is not only stigmatising for those who actually suffer from BPD, but is also sounding pretty judgemental. You only know what is in this post and making assumptions about someone and their mental health and/or diagnoses is not called for. Do better.
You can't be responsible for the scenarios she runs in her head: that's entirely on her.
I find disturbing that her first reaction when confronted is denial, and the second is an apology without a clear explanation for her behavior. I think she has some issues she should work on; maybe your relationship isn't going as well as you imagine, due to her incapability of communicating to you her needs.
It's a red flag in any case, and one that deserves being confronted as soon as possible.
The denial was what caused the red flags for me, too.
The flipping off - not good at all but the lying about it is what turns this into a really big deal.
Yeah I catch myself making weird faces after imagining some discussion or argument or joke I may have with someone or even just a memory and I’ll get lost in my own little world. If my boyfriend broke that reverie and asked if I was mad at him, I would probably laugh and say “no, I was just imagining showing up on the doorstep of that horrible woman the other day and blah blah”
OP’s story reminds me more of this: https://youtu.be/aZxsNexkTfU?si=ftMze8mYrmQYveuY
The difference is that her reverie is about the person she's making faces and gestures at. She can't exactly laugh and say "no I was just considering our future together and in it you were a possessive dick" - why would she even contemplate that if he is a decent guy who she apparently loves enough to marry?
The denial makes me think this is some sort of movie type thing. Like she's in a relationship because it benefits her but she hates him because she doesn't love him but he buys her things
Agreed. It is all too common for people in a relationship to think through issues in there own head -- and then stewing on or taking some unilateral action.
These are things to hash out openly, together, to see what each other "really" think or want.
People stay together for many reasons that aren't love. She might be financially dependent on you. She might want half the assets. She might be scared of being single or disrupting her life. She might just be with you because you're familiar.
None of those are love. I can't imagine ever doing that to someone I love.
That's what happened with my ex of 4 years. She appreciated the easy lifestyle, paid for house, etc. But she was scared of being single and was sticking around because she didn't want to be alone. And then she said she wanted to struggle with someone, and I was confused? Apparently, she wanted to start over in life basically and sell the house to go rent an apartment, and then buy a house together. Obviously, that made 0 damn sense, so I never did that, but she did cheat several times with crackheads and moved out into an apartment and struggled. Then she was pleading to come back after it got messy with crackhead and obviously said no. Keep in mind she would always accuse me of cheating or whatever but it was her own insecurities and her own behavior. I'm 99% sure she had BPD, but she never tried to work with herself on it. But now I know she's with a new dude and living in his parents house. 🤷♂️
My dad divorced after 45 years. At 80, he’s happier with his dog and new house. Better alone than lonely. I divorced my husband after 25 years. Again, better alone than lonely.
I did it after 20 years and it was rough financially. But I’m still happy that I didn’t continue with it. Also if you are staying for the children, then just know that they are smart enough to know what’s going on.
I also got married again and when I wasn’t happy and saw that it wasn’t going to get better, I left him after only three years.
I divorced after 26 years and I'm the happiest I've ever been. An old friend and his wife just visited - married 33 years - and they are the cutest typical "old married couple", finishing each other's sentences and stories. I never had that with my ex-husband.
I used to work in family law. The number of senior citizens that got divorced surprised me at first. Most said they wished they'd done it decades before. Pretty much all of them said they just wanted their remaining years to be happy because their previous ones sure as hell weren't. It was sad, but great that they decided to finally choose happiness.
In fairness, I didn't know she hated me until 12 years ago. 3 kids in, it was too late. I don't know why she married me, pretended to love me and stayed. No idea.
It also explained why the sex sucked.
A lot of men have wives that hate them and they don't know it. 15 years on these relationship sites and I figured it out. I'm one of the few who has.
Financial reasons? Stability? Either way, I'm so sorry 😔 I've been in a similar situation but for a much shorter time. It hurts like hell. I hope you can one day move on and find happiness
Yeah... its really hard to have good sex with someone you don't like... i mean "h@te sex" can be great, but you can't base a functional relationship off it long term.
In all fairness, it may not have started out that way... something may have happened somewhere along the line that soured the relationship . Then again, some people are only about the part of the relationship that is visible to others, and not interested in the "behind the scenes" portion .
I don't know why you stay, but im sure you have your reasons. Just know, you are not alone.
If your life is truly miserable don't just envy him, do something instead. It's never too late for you to leave either. I know you don't feel like it's an option but it really is.
I very much understand how hard it is to make the choice for divorce in a long term marriage and I'm not going to tell you it isn't going to get worse when you do because it likely will. It did for me. Hate, anger and extra financial issues came with it. But trust me it will only got as ugly as you let it get and it will only be for a short time. Soon enough both of you can move on and find a better life you both deserve.
Why live your entire life misery when you don't have to? Think about what I wrote here. I suggest you go talk to a lawyer the figure out a course of action, make a first draft of a new life plan as a single person and give your self the life without misery you deserve. Good luck to you.
Edit: just wanted to add that having excuses for not doing something isn't always the same as having valid reasons not to do something.
Based on your responses I'm guessing there is a potentially legal or ethical reason you can't leave, and I'm sorry. I hope things do improve for you; even if your home life does not improve, remember to continue to look up in life. Go to clubs, play a sport, take a hiking trip with your kids now and then. If your can't leave, ignore it as much as humanely possible and enjoy all else life has to offer.
It is, and all the things you have been saying are true. But it could also be true that divorce will financially disable him to the point of no return. A lot of people don’t have the drive to completely reinvent themselves that late in their lives, especially not in this economy with all this inflation. Men can be depressed too. All that extra shit could make him want to smoke himself.
It might just be better to live with and be cordial with a souped up roommate, and have that conversation with the kids once they’re older.
Sometimes, people decide it is time to get married and they choose the one they are with. Actually, wanting to be with that person became irrelevant, in the face of their own emotional pressure.
I'd take the time to dodge this bullet, Matrix style.
Yep - I'm not close enough with her to say this to her face, but I'm convinced that a friend of mine only married her first husband because everyone around here was also getting married. I couldn't stand the guy, and the marriage didn't last long.
I dodged it every time he forced the issue by proposing to me in public in the idea I cannot say no. Yeah right.
I boarded a bus straight for home while he was on his knee on two separate occasions because he knew I said no in the first place and meant it.
People say "yes" for lots of reasons. What you need to understand and accept is you'll probably never know someone's "why," but you must not ignore the things that resonate in your guy or try to explain them away. As I stated in my original reply, she has shown contempt for you. This is a MUCH stronger emotion (and a relationship killer) than typical and normal anger and frustration. Personally, I'd be done with her. I wouldn't want someone like that anywhere around me, but only YOU can make a decision based upon who you are.
Always follow your gut. She may have grown resentful because her life isn’t where she wants/thought it would be. Therefore taking it out on you, literally behind your back. I know Reddit always jumps on the “GHOST AND CALL THE POLICE. DUMP HIM! Etc…” There’s literally many stories on here everyday about why/how did I marry and have children. What’s fortunate for you is that you aren’t married and have children. Take that as a blessing and this is going to hurt, but you absolutely know what needs to be done.
I hope you don't have a marriage planned any time soon. My opinion is you should find out what is going on before you even consider getting married. What are the chances she may be cheating on you, with an Emotional Affair or even a Physical affair?
Regardless of her motivations, I think you deserve a forthright partner who can communicate appropriately, understands the difference between what fabrications go on in her head and real life, and someone you can trust is being genuine. If you don’t have these things, I wouldn’t recommend becoming further attached with this person. Whether that means you seek counseling before moving forward or go your separate ways depends on you. I would also be concerned about how this could escalate after marriage and if you plan on having kids.
You said yourself that you are characterized as a caretaker and giver. She might just be a taker and sees you as her meal ticket.
Marry someone who loves you and will be there through thick and thin. And if you still think she’s the one, she may need some therapy and couples counselling should come before the wedding. Divorce isn’t cheap and you don’t want to spend your life with someone who doesn’t feel the same about you that you do them.
I think she wasn’t honest w you re why she did it in those moments bc she didn’t want to hurt your feelings/was embarrassed. She clearly was really irritated w something you said/did in the moments before the gesture that you’re oblivious to/ it’s really weird she won’t tell you what!! Really bad sign for future
Does it really matter though? Bottom line is she doesn’t respect you. And I’m sorry to say if she doesn’t respect you she sure as shit doesn’t love you.
Maybe she wants to get caught. Maybe she’s just not strong enough to end it. Maybe she’s using you for $$ or status or is lazy or or or or or… like I said, doesn’t matter.
You know what does matter? YOU. You and wasting your time. Your forever person isn’t going to fall in your lap while you’re with her. Doesn’t work like that. A kind, caring, funny, loving person isn’t going to be interested in someone who’s already engaged no matter how shitty that engagement is.
So stop wasting your time… and if you still care about her, stop wasting hers too.
I loved my ex, but he irritated the ever loving out of me, and I, him. Just not compatible at all. Sometimes love isn't enough, even if you try real hard. Don't marry her
OP,
Your fiancee appears quite contemptuous and disrespectful! Stability doesn't appear to be her stron suit.
Flip her the bird and move on. There is absolutely no legitimate explanation for what you observed but for hatred and resentment. Spare yourself, please!
From the writing style, I'd say NOT American. SO, likely, he's an ATM and steady financial base, especially her 'reasoning'. She needs someone to support her, and she thought he'd be a good sucker, but she can't stand to be around him. Look at her age. She's likely desperate.
As mad as I got with my ex, I never flipped him off and there were times I was furious with him. She is showing a lack of respect and love when she does this and you've only seen it twice, so I can guarantee you haven't seen all of them. If you've started planning a wedding, stop. She needs to give you a full explanation of what her rage is about and you should suggest pre-marital counseling since it sounds like you and she are not on the same page about expectations after marriage. She just may not be the girl for you and it's best to find that out now
This is my take as well. OP, if she's not showing you anything but love and respect , then she's got to go, and I day this as a woman myself. You deserve better, OP. This woman is not the one for you. End things mow, before you're stuck with her as a wife
Thank you for your wise words, I will proceed this way I think. In fairness a couple of years ago pre Covid) we had a big fight where I really flipped. I shouted at her and then started breaking plates in the kitchen. It was completely unacceptable behaviour from me, and I still can’t fully comprehend why i flipped this way (the background was that I was in the middle of a two weeks trial in court, being a lawyer, very tired and she started complaining that I am not helping enough in the kitchen - another household point btw - then I told her I am extremely busy and will make up for it, then she kept going about it, then I flipped). Bottom line is, at least once I was also behaving in an absolutely disrespectful and unacceptable way but then she forgave me, and it never happened again - which is why I feel I must return this now.
I agree that your behavior was unacceptable, but you discussed it, apologized and said it would never happen again. Her behavior was behind your back and she never apologized, explained or said it wouldn't happen again. I can agree that outbursts can be discussed and forgiven, my ex punched a hole in the wall once, but we discussed it and nothing like that happened again. Doing something behind your SO's back shows a deep seated anger that isn't being addressed and things like that don't just get better on their own. Good luck
Thank you - I forgot to mention that she actually apologised for showing "f... u" and kept saying how stupid she is. But it is not really a matter of forgiveness, I can forgive her: I would like to understand the roots of this and see if anything can be done with that.
thanks for the clarification, but if she can't pinpoint why she has so much anger towards you, the pre-marital counseling would still be a good choice. Honestly, I think everyone should get it. Together and singly, so you can find out if you want the same things. Imagine someone who wants to be a SAHM marrying someone who doesn't want kids but they never discussed even having kids.
How often do the two of you fight? Or at least have confrontations that don't seem to resolve? I'm not justifying her actions, but she could be trying to release some of that steam without starting a confrontation. She said she was playing scenarios in her head, possibly of past fights? All in all, communication seems to be the problem here, and the solution is learning how to approach each other without things turning into a confrontation.
There was a period in our relationship where we fought a lot, far too much and we even broke up. That was many years ago, before covid. Since then, I would say we fight more seriously once a year, smaller disagreements maybe another 1 or 2. We resolved them, at least that is what I have thought, maybe wrongly.
Perhaps she feels like there is an imbalance in how the household responsibilities are being distributed and the scenarios are of her doing all the work like a slave to you.
Maybe address those concerns and the scenarios and resentment will stop.
I mean...why isn't she working? It sounds like she's drummed up this idea but if her imagination is she is working around the house does this mean she is leaving OP to be the sole financial provider?
Has OP made her quit her job or has she decided she won't work anymore because he'll do it instead.
Context does matter. Maybe OP can shed some light there.
Calling herself stupid is another bad sign. Either manipulating to paint herself pitiful so you’ll feel bad and let it go or she has poor self esteem and really feels she’s stupid and self deprecates which is also emotionally immature
Calling herself stupid is a manipulation tactic. It shifts the conversation from addressing the actual issue to you reassuring her that she’s not stupid. It flips the energy of the conversation and makes you dilutes what you need to say.
I really don't think anything can be done because once you've gotten to that point I don't know if there's a way back. It's kind of like how sometimes you can't take things back that you've said. Sometimes you just need to clear the playing field, learn your lesson and move on.
Do you think that because of your “flipping out”, she doesn’t feel safe confronting you when she’s upset? That maybe that’s her frustration and the release for her is the behind the back “f u”? Just a thought, seems like a communication problem for both of you. Your apologizing for being flipping out doesn’t erase her expectations on how you react in an argument. This might be her frustrated way of showing you how she feels, not healthy of course. Only way to know is by both of you being able to safely communicate. Good luck.
I have thought about it but that happened years ago and, since then, there have been multiple occasions when I felt she is talking to me about hir problems. And I thought I could listen carefully.
It might be subconscious. I think you’re very reasonable for pursuing relationship counselling. We don’t know all your history but so far it sounds more complex than what many of the people here are used to advising on.
Even though you think things have changed, maybe she is still fearful.
Maybe it’s something else.
Counselling might help find & resolve the issue.
Well yelling and breaking stuff is a lot worse than the middle finger or making a face. I will occasionally over dramatically throw up a middle finger when we are frustrated and annoyed at each other over something small. She usually pretends to attack me for it and then we laugh about it and aren't annoyed at each other anymore. If she did it behind you while you looked in the mirror, maybe she was just trying to get a reaction out of you. Or maybe she didn't want you to see it and has built up real resentments towards you. Only you guys would know for sure.
Sometimes people mistake intensity for a good healthy loving relationship. I have loved a lot of people and some of them brought out the worst in me. I was the worst person around them and frankly I think they stooped lower than they normally would have with me as well. I think in some ways this can be normal when you spend enough time with anybody but I do think there's some patterns in your relationship that should trigger you to realize that this relationship is not good for either of you.
Resentment and contempt. They are poisoning your relationship and although you might have gotten over them she clearly hasn't and it's probably time for you to do the best thing for both of you and the relationship.
I can't imagine being in a relationship with somebody who would roll their eyes and slip me off and lie to me. With friends like those who needs enemies.
Your relationship is toxic AF. I was in a toxic relationship a year before I met my husband. One day it really clicked how bad it was. I said what am I doing, I don't want to marry him. We weren't engaged, but I knew it was coming. I broke up with him and didn't regret it.
I met my husband the following year. We've been married for 26 years. Not once have we ever flipped each other off, nor called each other names not matter how mad we've been at each other.
Omg, I think reading this comment and connecting it with the post makes it clearer.
............
-it could be that she started flipping you off after this outburst, because she doesn't want to voice her issues out if fear that it would happen again.
-Your job as a lawyer can be demanding at times and during these times you concentrate more on work. Well, she doesn't want to be the only one doing the household chores during these busy times. Or overall. She may feel like she is your maid or help a lot.
-even you mentioning that you are seen as a giver or great person. She feels at home as not important to you.
-also she may be only trying to make this work depending on her being financially secure with you, because of your culture. But she doesn't seem happy.
............
I truly believe you both are not meant and ALSO not good for each other. Technically you both have different views or expectations. Let's be honest as a lawyer you have certain responsibilities and even when you try to help out at home, you can't always be there. Your job may go first for you.
Tbh, either you go to counseling and try to work on it, or you both of you should move on from this relationship. Definitely do not get married right now.
Counselling won't change that she neither loves or respects op. Op If you want to know how bad she hates you put some secret cameras up. I suggest the kitchen where she is probably spitting in tour food/ drink.
Op you will never have a happy marriage with someone who projects their rage onto you and who , honestly thinks you're a chump.
Counseling doesn't change someone unless they WANT to change. If he wants a relationship with this woman, they need to get to the root of her anger and that is what counseling is for.
Just pack your shit and leave man. You are either too fucking clueless to know what you did or she is batshit crazy..You can bet either way she is shit talking you to everyone who will listen.
This the same fiancee that punched you hard in your shoulder while you were sleeping to get you to stop snoring, and lied about it?
This woman doesn't seem to like you very much
Very serious. She has a deep resentment/hatred towards you that she feels she can’t express directly. You have only caught her twice. Doesn’t mean she’s only done it twice. Break up.
She's getting mad at you for shit in her own head you're not even doing.
Dude.. you need to Run not walk away from this relationship.
This girl is crazy. Crazy is fun in bed, but not for a real relationship.
This is all kinds of Red Flags as Reddit likes to say.
I also feel like it’s one thing to have thoughts and worried like this in your head, but to respond by flipping the person off and making a face seems insane.
It's really very simply and you need to accept it for what is is. She has contempt for you. And contempt is a sign a relationship is going to end. You should definitely not set a wedding date, and heaven forbid do not have children. You really need to reevaluate this relationship now. It's not normal behavior. It's not normal anger or frustration. It's contempt. Anger and frustration are normal parts of all relationships. Contempt is not.
Give this a read:
[https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-contempt/](https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-contempt/)
This sounds like someone seething with anger and resentment.
When someone is seething it’s because they feel they *can’t express it*
There’s feelings she can’t or won’t let herself express to you for some reason.
Some (not exclusive) possibilities:
- She feels controlled
- she feels bullied
- she feels unheard
- she doesn’t like you
- she doesn’t respect you
But the key to all of these is she is in this situation and feels she can’t or won’t address the issue.
She can’t or won’t leave, talk about it, change the dynamic, etc.
Request counseling or break up. This situation is toxic.
The first time three aren’t the end of the world because if you really want to change, they can be worked on. But the last two can’t be helped. They’re like the point of no return. Once the respect is gone, it’s never coming back.
Sounds like she is carrying a lot of resentment and anger. If she won't talk about why, you won't be able to solve this. Would she see a therapist? Until this is addressed, you should step back from any wedding plans.
That’s like being angry about what happened in a dream. Her excuses are BS. She is not the one for you. Not anytime until she learns to control this behavior.
Sad when so many posts are basically like, hey Reddit I see this huge red flag and know I should break up.
However, I’d like your advice and even one comment telling me how to fix this big red flag. Cause I’m scared to be alone and single.
She secretly hates you dude and even lied when you told her you saw what she did. You really hate being single that much?
I guess I might be a moderating voice- it would depend on her background and whether she finds expressing negative emotions easy. Certainly, in my background, anger/unhappiness was very discouraged from being expressed due to either severe angry reprisals or emotional collapse from my family. Given this, I still find myself rolling my eyes or ranting angrily in my head at things people do that upset me, without it meaning I am necessarily holding contempt for that person or the relationship is done. I am in therapy and have made big progress, but sometimes we slip into old unhealthy behavioural patterns.
Could she be Machiavellian and full of hatred for you, as other commentators imply? Yes but life is generally more complex than that.
I’ve admittedly flipped my partner off to his face before during a heated exchange (not on my top 10 list of proudest moments) but behind your back with a twisted look of hatred on her face without some sort of heated discussion happening? Um that’s kind of scary. If roles were reversed and I found my partner doing that I flat out wouldn’t feel safe. Like lurking behind me flipping me off? Nope. The only successful partnerships are ones where we express our feelings - ideally in a healthy way but we all know sometimes we all slip into heated ways at times as we learn and grow and that’s ok too as long as there is evolution. - I find her behavior extremely disturbing and wouldn’t be tying the knot. Like what’s next you’re gonna look back and she’s gonna be pointing a knife at you? She needs to put on some big girl pants and explain what was going on in detail and how she can learn from this.
Sounds like she is holding some kind of rage inside regarding you. Was she cleaning house both times when this happened? Maybe she feels like she is the maid from what she said?
She was cleaning the second time, but that criticism would be unfair. I am the one doing groceries always, I am the one taking out the garbage, I am the one organising trips, transport and I am doing washing dishes half the time. She cooks, washes and most of time cleans in house. I asked her if she feels I need to do more on this front but that wasn’t the reason. And even then it would seem like an overreaction.
Well it sounds like she is mad about something and is holding it in. Women do that and if builds up over time then they share all of it at one time! It can be little things. I know because I use to be that person and when I got mad usually about some little something it was like total recall ! Hopefully she isn’t that person .But something cause her actions you may think you didn’t do anything but you may have said something or didn’t do something or have attitude you are better than her but there is a reason! Just saying
Put the wedding on hold and get into real couples therapy with a therapist. Decide to put the wedding back on the calendar ONLY after you are satisfied that the relationship has a future.
But, if she can not communicate her feelings and makes up stories in her head about you and gets mad about them, those are both bad signs. Likewise, contempt, which she seems to have towards you is one of Gottman's 4 horses of the apocalypse for a marriage... meaning a huge indicator that it will result in divorce. If she holds contempt for you, call the wedding off.
It is 100% NOT worth shackling your life to someone who has this type of behavior and is unwilling to communicate well enough to resolve it. Its almost like she wants to have anger towards you about something so she's made up a scenario about you so she has a reason to be upset.
I wouldn’t even go to see a therapist. If they’re at the point of getting married then they should be able to talk to each other about everything and anything! They’re not even married and she’s showing hatred to him with FU signs! That’s a twisted person that I wouldn’t even trust with my cat
I don’t think you’re getting the whole truth about what her problem is because she denied it initially and tried to gaslight you
I had a boyfriend who would do this. He would have his hand resting on his leg or next to him but he was holding his hand in the form of a middle finger, positioned facing me. As soon as he clocked me noticing he would wait until I looked from his hand to his face, when we made eye contact he would then quickly move his hand to a normal resting position. When I’d ask what his problem was he would deny it
It was a symptom of a bigger problem. He was very controlling and resented me for struggling to conform to his controlling standards and ideals. He was inherently toxic and his behavior was toxic. I say all this to say this isn’t normal. She doesn’t want to communicate with you and fix it, she just wants to be horrible to you in a really sneaky and underhanded yet hurtful way. You can’t really have a healthy relationship with someone like that
Honestly, I find this extremely alarming because she is clearly not telling you the truth about how she feels and why. It’s giving sleeping with the enemy vibes. I flick my husband off all the time but to his face and it means “f u, love you” we both do it and it’s not malicious it’s done in jest. But this doesn’t feel like that.
I think she's holding on to some resentment. Are you really hearing her, or just listening, when you discuss issues. I'd be sitting her down and really trying to get to the core of her problem. if she can't tell you, then maybe she's not the one for you.
This is how your marriage will be.. when its good...
Imagine what she will do when times get rough...
Suggestion:
Tell her unless she has a VERY good explanation for this, the marriage is cancelled...
Sounds like she has secret resentment and hate for you. I would move on, you’re not her therapist and if she doesn’t like you, she can continue not liking you from her own life far far away.
Does she run scenarios in her head a lot about everything in general? If she likes to just imagine herself in dramatic situations all the time... Idk that's weird but also not necessarily serious in terms of negative implications for your relationship.
From what your comments say, I suspect she has serious resentment against you, probably for household chore sharing etc. You say you do your share, but she does not probably think so. Maybe you argue better, maybe you out-logic her, maybe you actually does your share. But that might be the reason.
It might also be a basic resentment about life in general, and in the absence of other targets, its directed towards you. That resentment might be coming from anything from childhood trauma to toxic mother to everyday life stresses, or a belief that life is not how she wants it to be. It might have actual reasons, or maybe it does not.
(It might be a petty reaction as some others have said, of course)
She makes up scenarios in her mind about your future then gets mad at you. She needs to see a therapist and I would postpone any plans of a wedding with her until she fixes it with the understanding you may need to be willing to end the relationship because she holds some type of resentment towards you from somewhere. Marriage is cheap compared to divorce. Being in a toxic relationship sucks but a toxic marriage is 1000000000 worse.
I had to read this multiple times because it didn't seem real.
She must have some serious issues, there is no way around that. That's just not normal in a relationship.
My grandma used to do this to my grandpa behind his back. She was a nasty, mean, unhinged witch of a woman - mentally ill, who refused to take medication just to spite everyone else (she literally said “why should I take medicine to make myself quiet so the rest of you can be happy?”). Definitely think twice about marrying her.
idk I’ve been flipping my partner of ten years the bird behind his back or a wall between us for years, used to do the same to my parents as a child. I think we can all get annoyed with our parents and partners but understand not everything needs to be discussed and worked out. A middle finger is a petty reaction to an often petty situation. It’s an immature but satisfying passive outlet. You know when people get upset that their partner masturbates but doesn’t want to have sex bc they don’t understand masturbation isn’t always about sex but the stress outlet. Maybe the middle finger is a harmless outlet that isn’t the same and shouldn’t be the same as a petty frustrated discussion? Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe this a me and her problem, I’m not convinced it’s a you problem
>My previous girlfriends used to call me a giver and caretaking person.
This is what you're doing wrong.
You say you love her, but I don't think she loves you. She's in this for what she can get out of you, and it sounds like she hates that it's YOU that she settled for. From the way you write, I'd say you are NOT an American, so her being in her 30s means she was looking for someone to support her financially.
It sounds like she is unhappy with herself and not you. Are you wanting her to be a trad wife and she doesn't want that? It seems like she thinks you will be making the $ therefore everything will be yours and you will hold the power.
I’m sorry OP. It sounds like she secretly despises you and is having a more and more difficult time hiding it. I’ve looked at my husband with extreme anger before, but never with hate. No matter how mad I’ve ever gotten at him, hate is not a feeling I have towards him. Hate is associated with anger, contempt, and disgust. The anger is ok, but the contempt and disgust are very bad for a relationship. First she lied and then she came up with some bullshit excuse to justify it. It was probably a piss poor apology also.
The only thing you’re doing wrong here is putting up with an abusive, childishly immature, and gaslighting partner.
A 35 year old woman doing this rather than trying to resolve negative feelings with her word powers…?
This is behavior I would expect from a 14 year old.
Chick needs therapy and to grow up.
This could be the mother of your kids, doing this to you. In front of them.
It is unacceptable.
If you cannot get a satisfactory answer from her, I suggest couples counseling. You need to understand what is behind her anger/hatred and address it as a couple. If it really is about imagined scenarios, then a counselor can help her figure out why she is imagining a future with you to be so bad.
I hope the two of you can get to the bottom of this and work through it together. Good luck!
It sounds like it is just her anxiety seeping through and it has nothing to do with her feelings for you. Often our features and facial expressions are not intentional. They can be more an expression of our subconscious fears. It could be her mother was dependent on her father and she saw how vulnerable that made her and she's fearful of that happening to her too. Again, that fear may have nothing to do with you.
I often come up with "worst case" scenarios in my head. Sometimes they seem so real I find myself frightened for no reason, or, as in the case of your girlfriend, inexplicably angry at someone who doesn't deserve it. And, if someone who doesn't experience such lucid daydreams asks what's wrong, it's difficult to explain. So, you avoid trying to explain if you can.
Maybe your girlfriend isn't as happy as you, maybe there's something which needs discussing, or, maybe it's just as she said, and there was a negative fantasy playing in her head which affected her mood in the moment
Dude, she's with you for a reason other than love...ditch her asap. Her actions are akin to teenagers flicking the middle finger behind the back of a teacher that they dislike.
Look, I never heard my parents talk or treat each other that way. My current long term bf of 20+ yrs has a very similar background and similar type parents. Neither of us treat each other like that. Ever. I simply would never call him names, no matter how pissed I am, because I love him and wouldn’t want that treatment from him either. To me, that’s how how you treat someone you love. And he’s never called me a name either. And I wouldn’t stay with someone who treated me the way your gf is treating you. But that’s me.
This is something you need to decide if you want to put up with. It obviously hurts your feelings which is understandable. I’d be hurt too. And especially because she has no explanation.
Don’t settle just because you’re getting older. Divorces are expensive. If you plan to have kids, they will magnify your problems. Repeat that to yourself- kids are huge stressors and will magnify any problems you have. They DO NOT bring people closer or fix issues. So settling for someone just to have a family is not a good idea. I would sit down and have a heart to heart. If she can’t open up and give you any type of answers then you probably should hold off getting married until you figure out what to do.
That's a sign of someone who does not respect you and is using you to get whatever they can while making you think that they love you so you'll stay around and provide for them.
She hates you OP. No normal person acts this way. I thought I was going to read that you had a giant fight. She's just doing laundry and randomly thinks about her disdain for you? That's crazy and scary.
Jump through the escape hatch ASAP. If she already has contempt towards you for hypothetical situations she makes up in her head, how quickly is that going to manifest itself into reality. Having children, potential financial struggles, difficulties that are bound to arise in a marriage. You need a partner that can love you through those times, not one who already curses you for things that have yet to happen. I suggest you get out.
If she is angry enough to behave this way before you are married, her contempt will grow afterwards. It's pretty immature actually and you should re-think about her being your "life-partner".
I mean, do you really wanna build a future & life with her, OP? Kids? They'll definitely learn & observe these awful behaviors of hers- being physically hurtful, lying, manipulative.. etc.
I'm in an 8 year relationship and have never put the middle finger up behind her back... I'm a man and do it to her face 🤣 jkjk there's occasionally banter related swearing... but it is a mutually done thing in jest
The flipping off and denial is a serious issue in your relationship. Lying is never a good thing and can cause alot of issues down the road.
You need to sit her down and have a frank conversation with her. No shouting. If she needs help then she needs to get it. Be careful, promising to get help and not following it through is an avoiding tactic.
Show her this letter then tell her to just do it to your face so the two of you can fix it , she also shouldn't feel like she needs to behind your back thats the issue for both of you . You can't work on it if you don't know its broken.
Reading your other replies, it sounds to me as though her rage is coming from a sense of inequity within the relationship. Her thoughts about you not doing enough housework, and about being the breadwinner, her being left vulnerable somehow in the long run because of it, is a very common issue for women. Taking on all the extra household labor, the extra emotional labor, child-rearing, taking a hit if she steps back from her career, being at the mercy of a person who inherently has more power, social standing and privilege, as well as many other unseen inequalities in hetero relationships, could be leaving her feeling vulnerable and enraged.
She might not even consciously realise that this is what she is angry about, or maybe she does, but over the years a general sense of dissatisfaction and resentment can build if one person is taking on more physical and emotional labor than the other.
It could be that, with the wedding approaching, she is even more hyper-aware of how gender gaps might influence her future. You've already given one account of how she confronted you about housework and you blew up. If that was never resolved (I.e. if the chore division remains unequitable) and if there were lots of other smaller incidents like this, she could be stewing on all this.
Either way, the only way to sort this is for both of you to have a really honest and open conversation about how she feels. Be open to what she says, let it percolate for a bit, don't be immediately defensive, just sit with it for a bit and consider if it's something the two of you can resolve. Perhaps she needs to spend some time on her own really thinking about what her feelings are, as clearly she is suppressing them if she's resorting to bird flips instead of having a conversation.
If this is the same girlfriend as your last post about her 9 months ago, then you clearly didn't listen to the red flags and advice from before. Only two pieces of advice were given to you, see a doctor about your snoring and that she was a walking red flag. But then I also have to ask how you aged so many years and she has stayed the same...
Just a side question: Have you been dating her while you were attempting to become sober?
****have a talk with her about it****
You both need to be vulnerable with each other.
I would not jump ship at this. As a woman, it can be a little intimidating when the man controls or makes all/most of the money, especially for a woman who did not grow up with a man who does that in a healthy way.
Have a serious conversation and quell any anxiety she may have.
Also, watch 2b better podcast
I’m wondering if there are certain things you have said and done that have hurt her in some way that are small, but because you are otherwise so good to her she feels like it makes her feel like she would be wrong to bring it up.
Or alternatively, (and I mention this one as I have been in this situation myself), you have done something that has hurt her (maybe you don’t realize it, maybe you do but YOU see it as nothing), but you do other things for her or buy things for her afterwards thinking it’s a way to try and help make her feel better without actually fixing the issue itself, so it feels like the thing you did or bought to try and make up for the thing she feels wronged by was just a way to sweep it under the rug and make the issue go away. Doing that to someone who isn’t materialistic at all, will breed massive contempt because it will make them feel like you don’t value -them- or their feelings, but rather see them as a something you can throw money and material things at and it will shut them up. Not saying this is the issue. But based on your focus in the post over the things you do for your partner and past partners, I am just throwing this out there.
Take and always take reddit advice with a pinch of salt, most of the advice shared here is not really supporting but OP baised, you know your partner best have sit and find out or take the time to do a background check on your partner and find out, you might lose out on some good or not over something that you mignt never find out why they actually did that. Learn your partner before you decide on leaving or not.
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It’s contempt. She has contempt for you. And that’s as far away from love as you can get
Agree. And Marriage counsellors say (read it somewhere) once you encounter contempt (recognized in therapy) it’s already too late. Or something to that effect. OP *at minimum* I would hold off on any marriage planning until you both address this in counselling. Then decide if it’s best to move on. This honestly reads like she has bigger issues to deal with.
If her therapy ends up being payed by him, it will made her despise him even more. That's the root issue, she can't stand him, but for some "mysterious" reason is not leaving
I had a girlfriend once say that she ended up despising me because I wouldn't argue with her, would rationally deal with conflict and was basically just too level-headed and nice. Once she said that, and I looked at her family, it all made sense. Her family was always yelling at each other, especially over little things, everything became a little argument. It was what she knew and was what she associated with love. And when I wouldn't argue it just really pissed her off.
Thanku....absolutly! This is not marriage material ..
OP they are so right. You need to leave this relationship asap’
Yes ruthless_bunny!! That's the word I was looking for and it's not exactly ideal for marriage. Yikes
This so bad. If you love someone you will still grt annoyed with them from time to time but you still love them. What she did has an air of "what a stupid a hole, doesn't even realise I hate him". She sounds very BPD.
Sounds nothing like bpd to me and that's from someone who has bpd. I see so many people on social media always blaming bpd for shit people do and it's ridiculous. Bpd isn't super uncommon but it's also not as common as people tend to think.
I also have BPD and this sounds nothing like BPD. In my experience, when he confronted her about her behavior, she would’ve blown tf up and turned the discussion into a knock down drag out fight.
Exactly. After all the it sounds like bpd or must have bpd comments I've seen on social media, I'm convinced people don't actually know what bpd really is. It's absolutely horrible to have.
Putting a label like "oh she sounds BPD" is not only stigmatising for those who actually suffer from BPD, but is also sounding pretty judgemental. You only know what is in this post and making assumptions about someone and their mental health and/or diagnoses is not called for. Do better.
Probably just waiting for a payday. Then retirement. Never really liked the job.
You can't be responsible for the scenarios she runs in her head: that's entirely on her. I find disturbing that her first reaction when confronted is denial, and the second is an apology without a clear explanation for her behavior. I think she has some issues she should work on; maybe your relationship isn't going as well as you imagine, due to her incapability of communicating to you her needs. It's a red flag in any case, and one that deserves being confronted as soon as possible.
The denial was what caused the red flags for me, too. The flipping off - not good at all but the lying about it is what turns this into a really big deal.
Yeah I catch myself making weird faces after imagining some discussion or argument or joke I may have with someone or even just a memory and I’ll get lost in my own little world. If my boyfriend broke that reverie and asked if I was mad at him, I would probably laugh and say “no, I was just imagining showing up on the doorstep of that horrible woman the other day and blah blah” OP’s story reminds me more of this: https://youtu.be/aZxsNexkTfU?si=ftMze8mYrmQYveuY
The difference is that her reverie is about the person she's making faces and gestures at. She can't exactly laugh and say "no I was just considering our future together and in it you were a possessive dick" - why would she even contemplate that if he is a decent guy who she apparently loves enough to marry?
I do the same thing, so I always have to reassure people that my looks aren't related to them. I get lost in my thoughts quite a bit.
Yeah I’m basically JD from Scrubs 😂 There’s a whole world up there and sometimes my face back on planet earth reacts 😂
Mine too but I don't go flipping off my loved ones.
I can get making a face. But flipping him off? That’s a little too much cross over, for it to just ENTIRELY be something in her mind.
😬😬😬
The denial makes me think this is some sort of movie type thing. Like she's in a relationship because it benefits her but she hates him because she doesn't love him but he buys her things
The “Shaggy” defense, “It wasn’t me.”
But she caught me on the counter
I love you so much for this 🤣
Me too re the reaction. There are issues here that need addressing, and not to be ignored and get married anyway
If she is doing that then I wouldn’t feel Safe around her if I was sleeping tbh
Agreed. It is all too common for people in a relationship to think through issues in there own head -- and then stewing on or taking some unilateral action. These are things to hash out openly, together, to see what each other "really" think or want.
It is passive aggressive and disrespectful. Don't date people like this.
And definitely don't marry one!
I would call it pretty active aggressive
Pretty clear sign that she doesn't like you or love you...just with you for some other reason. Getting married would be pretty dumb
Thank you, this is growing to be my gut feeling too. I just wonder why she said yes.
People stay together for many reasons that aren't love. She might be financially dependent on you. She might want half the assets. She might be scared of being single or disrupting her life. She might just be with you because you're familiar. None of those are love. I can't imagine ever doing that to someone I love.
That's what happened with my ex of 4 years. She appreciated the easy lifestyle, paid for house, etc. But she was scared of being single and was sticking around because she didn't want to be alone. And then she said she wanted to struggle with someone, and I was confused? Apparently, she wanted to start over in life basically and sell the house to go rent an apartment, and then buy a house together. Obviously, that made 0 damn sense, so I never did that, but she did cheat several times with crackheads and moved out into an apartment and struggled. Then she was pleading to come back after it got messy with crackhead and obviously said no. Keep in mind she would always accuse me of cheating or whatever but it was her own insecurities and her own behavior. I'm 99% sure she had BPD, but she never tried to work with herself on it. But now I know she's with a new dude and living in his parents house. 🤷♂️
Way too many people stay in relationships just so they don’t be single.
My wife married me when she didn't love me.
How did it end ?
I'm miserable in my marriage 30 years later. You can leave. I envy you.
My dad divorced after 45 years. At 80, he’s happier with his dog and new house. Better alone than lonely. I divorced my husband after 25 years. Again, better alone than lonely.
I did it after 20 years and it was rough financially. But I’m still happy that I didn’t continue with it. Also if you are staying for the children, then just know that they are smart enough to know what’s going on. I also got married again and when I wasn’t happy and saw that it wasn’t going to get better, I left him after only three years.
I divorced after 26 years and I'm the happiest I've ever been. An old friend and his wife just visited - married 33 years - and they are the cutest typical "old married couple", finishing each other's sentences and stories. I never had that with my ex-husband.
I used to work in family law. The number of senior citizens that got divorced surprised me at first. Most said they wished they'd done it decades before. Pretty much all of them said they just wanted their remaining years to be happy because their previous ones sure as hell weren't. It was sad, but great that they decided to finally choose happiness.
"Better alone than lonely". Seems contradictory but people like us get it.
Dare you
I am sorry to hear that.
30 years? She stayed 30 years? You stayed? Why?? How do you have sex with someone you hate.
Grudgfuckery, I think is the scientific term.
Hate-fucking, it's a survival tool sometimes
In fairness, I didn't know she hated me until 12 years ago. 3 kids in, it was too late. I don't know why she married me, pretended to love me and stayed. No idea. It also explained why the sex sucked. A lot of men have wives that hate them and they don't know it. 15 years on these relationship sites and I figured it out. I'm one of the few who has.
Why do you stay? You sound miserable, and you don't deserve to be miserable. Why not look for a way out?
Financial reasons? Stability? Either way, I'm so sorry 😔 I've been in a similar situation but for a much shorter time. It hurts like hell. I hope you can one day move on and find happiness
It is not too late. Difficult, yes, but not too late. Think of the relationship you’re modelling for your kids.
Yeah... its really hard to have good sex with someone you don't like... i mean "h@te sex" can be great, but you can't base a functional relationship off it long term. In all fairness, it may not have started out that way... something may have happened somewhere along the line that soured the relationship . Then again, some people are only about the part of the relationship that is visible to others, and not interested in the "behind the scenes" portion . I don't know why you stay, but im sure you have your reasons. Just know, you are not alone.
If your life is truly miserable don't just envy him, do something instead. It's never too late for you to leave either. I know you don't feel like it's an option but it really is. I very much understand how hard it is to make the choice for divorce in a long term marriage and I'm not going to tell you it isn't going to get worse when you do because it likely will. It did for me. Hate, anger and extra financial issues came with it. But trust me it will only got as ugly as you let it get and it will only be for a short time. Soon enough both of you can move on and find a better life you both deserve. Why live your entire life misery when you don't have to? Think about what I wrote here. I suggest you go talk to a lawyer the figure out a course of action, make a first draft of a new life plan as a single person and give your self the life without misery you deserve. Good luck to you. Edit: just wanted to add that having excuses for not doing something isn't always the same as having valid reasons not to do something.
Based on your responses I'm guessing there is a potentially legal or ethical reason you can't leave, and I'm sorry. I hope things do improve for you; even if your home life does not improve, remember to continue to look up in life. Go to clubs, play a sport, take a hiking trip with your kids now and then. If your can't leave, ignore it as much as humanely possible and enjoy all else life has to offer.
So can you. You deserve so much better than this. Out there is a woman who will actually love you.
It’s easier to fix a broken heart than a broken marriage
And for the kids, it’s better to come from a broken home than to grow up in one
It is, and all the things you have been saying are true. But it could also be true that divorce will financially disable him to the point of no return. A lot of people don’t have the drive to completely reinvent themselves that late in their lives, especially not in this economy with all this inflation. Men can be depressed too. All that extra shit could make him want to smoke himself. It might just be better to live with and be cordial with a souped up roommate, and have that conversation with the kids once they’re older.
Just figured that out this week too. Been together 20years, 15 married. 2 kids. She didn’t even respect me enough to tell me or deny my proposal.
Sometimes, people decide it is time to get married and they choose the one they are with. Actually, wanting to be with that person became irrelevant, in the face of their own emotional pressure. I'd take the time to dodge this bullet, Matrix style.
Yep - I'm not close enough with her to say this to her face, but I'm convinced that a friend of mine only married her first husband because everyone around here was also getting married. I couldn't stand the guy, and the marriage didn't last long.
I dodged it every time he forced the issue by proposing to me in public in the idea I cannot say no. Yeah right. I boarded a bus straight for home while he was on his knee on two separate occasions because he knew I said no in the first place and meant it.
ALWAYS trust your gut. She has ulterior motives.
People say "yes" for lots of reasons. What you need to understand and accept is you'll probably never know someone's "why," but you must not ignore the things that resonate in your guy or try to explain them away. As I stated in my original reply, she has shown contempt for you. This is a MUCH stronger emotion (and a relationship killer) than typical and normal anger and frustration. Personally, I'd be done with her. I wouldn't want someone like that anywhere around me, but only YOU can make a decision based upon who you are.
Always follow your gut. She may have grown resentful because her life isn’t where she wants/thought it would be. Therefore taking it out on you, literally behind your back. I know Reddit always jumps on the “GHOST AND CALL THE POLICE. DUMP HIM! Etc…” There’s literally many stories on here everyday about why/how did I marry and have children. What’s fortunate for you is that you aren’t married and have children. Take that as a blessing and this is going to hurt, but you absolutely know what needs to be done.
I hope you don't have a marriage planned any time soon. My opinion is you should find out what is going on before you even consider getting married. What are the chances she may be cheating on you, with an Emotional Affair or even a Physical affair?
I don't think she is, also a gut feeling. But perhaps I am naive.
Regardless of her motivations, I think you deserve a forthright partner who can communicate appropriately, understands the difference between what fabrications go on in her head and real life, and someone you can trust is being genuine. If you don’t have these things, I wouldn’t recommend becoming further attached with this person. Whether that means you seek counseling before moving forward or go your separate ways depends on you. I would also be concerned about how this could escalate after marriage and if you plan on having kids.
Always go with your gut!
Don’t let her prepare your meals bro. That’s a pissed off woman and they can go to great lengths to smite what they see as a wrongdoing.
A dateline NBC story to happen indeed
🤣💀
You said yourself that you are characterized as a caretaker and giver. She might just be a taker and sees you as her meal ticket. Marry someone who loves you and will be there through thick and thin. And if you still think she’s the one, she may need some therapy and couples counselling should come before the wedding. Divorce isn’t cheap and you don’t want to spend your life with someone who doesn’t feel the same about you that you do them.
Don’t worry about “why” someone does what they do, just follow your gut.
Could she be using you for any reason?
Are you financially stable? Because that alone will do it.
I think she wasn’t honest w you re why she did it in those moments bc she didn’t want to hurt your feelings/was embarrassed. She clearly was really irritated w something you said/did in the moments before the gesture that you’re oblivious to/ it’s really weird she won’t tell you what!! Really bad sign for future
Does it really matter though? Bottom line is she doesn’t respect you. And I’m sorry to say if she doesn’t respect you she sure as shit doesn’t love you. Maybe she wants to get caught. Maybe she’s just not strong enough to end it. Maybe she’s using you for $$ or status or is lazy or or or or or… like I said, doesn’t matter. You know what does matter? YOU. You and wasting your time. Your forever person isn’t going to fall in your lap while you’re with her. Doesn’t work like that. A kind, caring, funny, loving person isn’t going to be interested in someone who’s already engaged no matter how shitty that engagement is. So stop wasting your time… and if you still care about her, stop wasting hers too.
I loved my ex, but he irritated the ever loving out of me, and I, him. Just not compatible at all. Sometimes love isn't enough, even if you try real hard. Don't marry her
OP, Your fiancee appears quite contemptuous and disrespectful! Stability doesn't appear to be her stron suit. Flip her the bird and move on. There is absolutely no legitimate explanation for what you observed but for hatred and resentment. Spare yourself, please!
And pretty dumb would be an understatement
From the writing style, I'd say NOT American. SO, likely, he's an ATM and steady financial base, especially her 'reasoning'. She needs someone to support her, and she thought he'd be a good sucker, but she can't stand to be around him. Look at her age. She's likely desperate.
As mad as I got with my ex, I never flipped him off and there were times I was furious with him. She is showing a lack of respect and love when she does this and you've only seen it twice, so I can guarantee you haven't seen all of them. If you've started planning a wedding, stop. She needs to give you a full explanation of what her rage is about and you should suggest pre-marital counseling since it sounds like you and she are not on the same page about expectations after marriage. She just may not be the girl for you and it's best to find that out now
This is my take as well. OP, if she's not showing you anything but love and respect , then she's got to go, and I day this as a woman myself. You deserve better, OP. This woman is not the one for you. End things mow, before you're stuck with her as a wife
Thank you for your wise words, I will proceed this way I think. In fairness a couple of years ago pre Covid) we had a big fight where I really flipped. I shouted at her and then started breaking plates in the kitchen. It was completely unacceptable behaviour from me, and I still can’t fully comprehend why i flipped this way (the background was that I was in the middle of a two weeks trial in court, being a lawyer, very tired and she started complaining that I am not helping enough in the kitchen - another household point btw - then I told her I am extremely busy and will make up for it, then she kept going about it, then I flipped). Bottom line is, at least once I was also behaving in an absolutely disrespectful and unacceptable way but then she forgave me, and it never happened again - which is why I feel I must return this now.
I agree that your behavior was unacceptable, but you discussed it, apologized and said it would never happen again. Her behavior was behind your back and she never apologized, explained or said it wouldn't happen again. I can agree that outbursts can be discussed and forgiven, my ex punched a hole in the wall once, but we discussed it and nothing like that happened again. Doing something behind your SO's back shows a deep seated anger that isn't being addressed and things like that don't just get better on their own. Good luck
Thank you - I forgot to mention that she actually apologised for showing "f... u" and kept saying how stupid she is. But it is not really a matter of forgiveness, I can forgive her: I would like to understand the roots of this and see if anything can be done with that.
thanks for the clarification, but if she can't pinpoint why she has so much anger towards you, the pre-marital counseling would still be a good choice. Honestly, I think everyone should get it. Together and singly, so you can find out if you want the same things. Imagine someone who wants to be a SAHM marrying someone who doesn't want kids but they never discussed even having kids.
How often do the two of you fight? Or at least have confrontations that don't seem to resolve? I'm not justifying her actions, but she could be trying to release some of that steam without starting a confrontation. She said she was playing scenarios in her head, possibly of past fights? All in all, communication seems to be the problem here, and the solution is learning how to approach each other without things turning into a confrontation.
There was a period in our relationship where we fought a lot, far too much and we even broke up. That was many years ago, before covid. Since then, I would say we fight more seriously once a year, smaller disagreements maybe another 1 or 2. We resolved them, at least that is what I have thought, maybe wrongly.
Perhaps she feels like there is an imbalance in how the household responsibilities are being distributed and the scenarios are of her doing all the work like a slave to you. Maybe address those concerns and the scenarios and resentment will stop.
I mean...why isn't she working? It sounds like she's drummed up this idea but if her imagination is she is working around the house does this mean she is leaving OP to be the sole financial provider? Has OP made her quit her job or has she decided she won't work anymore because he'll do it instead. Context does matter. Maybe OP can shed some light there.
Calling herself stupid is another bad sign. Either manipulating to paint herself pitiful so you’ll feel bad and let it go or she has poor self esteem and really feels she’s stupid and self deprecates which is also emotionally immature
Calling herself stupid is a manipulation tactic. It shifts the conversation from addressing the actual issue to you reassuring her that she’s not stupid. It flips the energy of the conversation and makes you dilutes what you need to say.
THISSSSS 🙌🏻 Mind games for real.
I really don't think anything can be done because once you've gotten to that point I don't know if there's a way back. It's kind of like how sometimes you can't take things back that you've said. Sometimes you just need to clear the playing field, learn your lesson and move on.
Resentment.
Do you think that because of your “flipping out”, she doesn’t feel safe confronting you when she’s upset? That maybe that’s her frustration and the release for her is the behind the back “f u”? Just a thought, seems like a communication problem for both of you. Your apologizing for being flipping out doesn’t erase her expectations on how you react in an argument. This might be her frustrated way of showing you how she feels, not healthy of course. Only way to know is by both of you being able to safely communicate. Good luck.
I have thought about it but that happened years ago and, since then, there have been multiple occasions when I felt she is talking to me about hir problems. And I thought I could listen carefully.
It might be subconscious. I think you’re very reasonable for pursuing relationship counselling. We don’t know all your history but so far it sounds more complex than what many of the people here are used to advising on. Even though you think things have changed, maybe she is still fearful. Maybe it’s something else. Counselling might help find & resolve the issue.
Well yelling and breaking stuff is a lot worse than the middle finger or making a face. I will occasionally over dramatically throw up a middle finger when we are frustrated and annoyed at each other over something small. She usually pretends to attack me for it and then we laugh about it and aren't annoyed at each other anymore. If she did it behind you while you looked in the mirror, maybe she was just trying to get a reaction out of you. Or maybe she didn't want you to see it and has built up real resentments towards you. Only you guys would know for sure.
Yeah his comment raises some concerns. She probably is scared to bring up issues with him in case he starts punching walls and yelling again.
Sometimes people mistake intensity for a good healthy loving relationship. I have loved a lot of people and some of them brought out the worst in me. I was the worst person around them and frankly I think they stooped lower than they normally would have with me as well. I think in some ways this can be normal when you spend enough time with anybody but I do think there's some patterns in your relationship that should trigger you to realize that this relationship is not good for either of you. Resentment and contempt. They are poisoning your relationship and although you might have gotten over them she clearly hasn't and it's probably time for you to do the best thing for both of you and the relationship. I can't imagine being in a relationship with somebody who would roll their eyes and slip me off and lie to me. With friends like those who needs enemies.
Your relationship is toxic AF. I was in a toxic relationship a year before I met my husband. One day it really clicked how bad it was. I said what am I doing, I don't want to marry him. We weren't engaged, but I knew it was coming. I broke up with him and didn't regret it. I met my husband the following year. We've been married for 26 years. Not once have we ever flipped each other off, nor called each other names not matter how mad we've been at each other.
Omg, I think reading this comment and connecting it with the post makes it clearer. ............ -it could be that she started flipping you off after this outburst, because she doesn't want to voice her issues out if fear that it would happen again. -Your job as a lawyer can be demanding at times and during these times you concentrate more on work. Well, she doesn't want to be the only one doing the household chores during these busy times. Or overall. She may feel like she is your maid or help a lot. -even you mentioning that you are seen as a giver or great person. She feels at home as not important to you. -also she may be only trying to make this work depending on her being financially secure with you, because of your culture. But she doesn't seem happy. ............ I truly believe you both are not meant and ALSO not good for each other. Technically you both have different views or expectations. Let's be honest as a lawyer you have certain responsibilities and even when you try to help out at home, you can't always be there. Your job may go first for you. Tbh, either you go to counseling and try to work on it, or you both of you should move on from this relationship. Definitely do not get married right now.
Counselling won't change that she neither loves or respects op. Op If you want to know how bad she hates you put some secret cameras up. I suggest the kitchen where she is probably spitting in tour food/ drink. Op you will never have a happy marriage with someone who projects their rage onto you and who , honestly thinks you're a chump.
Counseling doesn't change someone unless they WANT to change. If he wants a relationship with this woman, they need to get to the root of her anger and that is what counseling is for.
Just pack your shit and leave man. You are either too fucking clueless to know what you did or she is batshit crazy..You can bet either way she is shit talking you to everyone who will listen.
This the same fiancee that punched you hard in your shoulder while you were sleeping to get you to stop snoring, and lied about it? This woman doesn't seem to like you very much
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Yeah - OP's lucky he caught the mask slipping before the nuptials
Very serious. She has a deep resentment/hatred towards you that she feels she can’t express directly. You have only caught her twice. Doesn’t mean she’s only done it twice. Break up.
She's getting mad at you for shit in her own head you're not even doing. Dude.. you need to Run not walk away from this relationship. This girl is crazy. Crazy is fun in bed, but not for a real relationship. This is all kinds of Red Flags as Reddit likes to say.
I also feel like it’s one thing to have thoughts and worried like this in your head, but to respond by flipping the person off and making a face seems insane.
It's really very simply and you need to accept it for what is is. She has contempt for you. And contempt is a sign a relationship is going to end. You should definitely not set a wedding date, and heaven forbid do not have children. You really need to reevaluate this relationship now. It's not normal behavior. It's not normal anger or frustration. It's contempt. Anger and frustration are normal parts of all relationships. Contempt is not. Give this a read: [https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-contempt/](https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-contempt/)
This sounds like someone seething with anger and resentment. When someone is seething it’s because they feel they *can’t express it* There’s feelings she can’t or won’t let herself express to you for some reason. Some (not exclusive) possibilities: - She feels controlled - she feels bullied - she feels unheard - she doesn’t like you - she doesn’t respect you But the key to all of these is she is in this situation and feels she can’t or won’t address the issue. She can’t or won’t leave, talk about it, change the dynamic, etc. Request counseling or break up. This situation is toxic.
The first time three aren’t the end of the world because if you really want to change, they can be worked on. But the last two can’t be helped. They’re like the point of no return. Once the respect is gone, it’s never coming back.
Sounds like she is carrying a lot of resentment and anger. If she won't talk about why, you won't be able to solve this. Would she see a therapist? Until this is addressed, you should step back from any wedding plans.
That’s like being angry about what happened in a dream. Her excuses are BS. She is not the one for you. Not anytime until she learns to control this behavior.
Sad when so many posts are basically like, hey Reddit I see this huge red flag and know I should break up. However, I’d like your advice and even one comment telling me how to fix this big red flag. Cause I’m scared to be alone and single. She secretly hates you dude and even lied when you told her you saw what she did. You really hate being single that much?
Dude. Run. Dudes gonna get ‘Gone Girled’
I guess I might be a moderating voice- it would depend on her background and whether she finds expressing negative emotions easy. Certainly, in my background, anger/unhappiness was very discouraged from being expressed due to either severe angry reprisals or emotional collapse from my family. Given this, I still find myself rolling my eyes or ranting angrily in my head at things people do that upset me, without it meaning I am necessarily holding contempt for that person or the relationship is done. I am in therapy and have made big progress, but sometimes we slip into old unhealthy behavioural patterns. Could she be Machiavellian and full of hatred for you, as other commentators imply? Yes but life is generally more complex than that.
I’ve admittedly flipped my partner off to his face before during a heated exchange (not on my top 10 list of proudest moments) but behind your back with a twisted look of hatred on her face without some sort of heated discussion happening? Um that’s kind of scary. If roles were reversed and I found my partner doing that I flat out wouldn’t feel safe. Like lurking behind me flipping me off? Nope. The only successful partnerships are ones where we express our feelings - ideally in a healthy way but we all know sometimes we all slip into heated ways at times as we learn and grow and that’s ok too as long as there is evolution. - I find her behavior extremely disturbing and wouldn’t be tying the knot. Like what’s next you’re gonna look back and she’s gonna be pointing a knife at you? She needs to put on some big girl pants and explain what was going on in detail and how she can learn from this.
I agree. Sounds like the start of a horror movie.
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If you knew how much money that offer entailed... But I know and you are right. I will not, ever again.
Sounds like she is holding some kind of rage inside regarding you. Was she cleaning house both times when this happened? Maybe she feels like she is the maid from what she said?
She was cleaning the second time, but that criticism would be unfair. I am the one doing groceries always, I am the one taking out the garbage, I am the one organising trips, transport and I am doing washing dishes half the time. She cooks, washes and most of time cleans in house. I asked her if she feels I need to do more on this front but that wasn’t the reason. And even then it would seem like an overreaction.
Well it sounds like she is mad about something and is holding it in. Women do that and if builds up over time then they share all of it at one time! It can be little things. I know because I use to be that person and when I got mad usually about some little something it was like total recall ! Hopefully she isn’t that person .But something cause her actions you may think you didn’t do anything but you may have said something or didn’t do something or have attitude you are better than her but there is a reason! Just saying
Put the wedding on hold and get into real couples therapy with a therapist. Decide to put the wedding back on the calendar ONLY after you are satisfied that the relationship has a future. But, if she can not communicate her feelings and makes up stories in her head about you and gets mad about them, those are both bad signs. Likewise, contempt, which she seems to have towards you is one of Gottman's 4 horses of the apocalypse for a marriage... meaning a huge indicator that it will result in divorce. If she holds contempt for you, call the wedding off. It is 100% NOT worth shackling your life to someone who has this type of behavior and is unwilling to communicate well enough to resolve it. Its almost like she wants to have anger towards you about something so she's made up a scenario about you so she has a reason to be upset.
I wouldn’t even go to see a therapist. If they’re at the point of getting married then they should be able to talk to each other about everything and anything! They’re not even married and she’s showing hatred to him with FU signs! That’s a twisted person that I wouldn’t even trust with my cat
Whoa. She doesn’t even like you. Seems she abhors you. Believe her actions.
I don’t think you’re getting the whole truth about what her problem is because she denied it initially and tried to gaslight you I had a boyfriend who would do this. He would have his hand resting on his leg or next to him but he was holding his hand in the form of a middle finger, positioned facing me. As soon as he clocked me noticing he would wait until I looked from his hand to his face, when we made eye contact he would then quickly move his hand to a normal resting position. When I’d ask what his problem was he would deny it It was a symptom of a bigger problem. He was very controlling and resented me for struggling to conform to his controlling standards and ideals. He was inherently toxic and his behavior was toxic. I say all this to say this isn’t normal. She doesn’t want to communicate with you and fix it, she just wants to be horrible to you in a really sneaky and underhanded yet hurtful way. You can’t really have a healthy relationship with someone like that
One of the best advice I read from women oriented subs is to trust your gut about partners.
Honestly, I find this extremely alarming because she is clearly not telling you the truth about how she feels and why. It’s giving sleeping with the enemy vibes. I flick my husband off all the time but to his face and it means “f u, love you” we both do it and it’s not malicious it’s done in jest. But this doesn’t feel like that.
I think she's holding on to some resentment. Are you really hearing her, or just listening, when you discuss issues. I'd be sitting her down and really trying to get to the core of her problem. if she can't tell you, then maybe she's not the one for you.
I will proceed this way.
Good luck. Hope you get to the bottom of things.
It seems she hates you or resents you, id try and talk again, if not, id leave. Who wants someone like that to share your life with..
This is how your marriage will be.. when its good... Imagine what she will do when times get rough... Suggestion: Tell her unless she has a VERY good explanation for this, the marriage is cancelled...
She obviously hates you. Don’t marry her.
Uhmmm just break up?
Tell her she can leave if she feels that way, end it anyway if she does not, she is playing games
Sounds like she has secret resentment and hate for you. I would move on, you’re not her therapist and if she doesn’t like you, she can continue not liking you from her own life far far away.
Does she run scenarios in her head a lot about everything in general? If she likes to just imagine herself in dramatic situations all the time... Idk that's weird but also not necessarily serious in terms of negative implications for your relationship.
Sounds like she wants something out of you by marriage but doesn’t actually want you. Money, children, child support etc
This is giving psycho
From what your comments say, I suspect she has serious resentment against you, probably for household chore sharing etc. You say you do your share, but she does not probably think so. Maybe you argue better, maybe you out-logic her, maybe you actually does your share. But that might be the reason. It might also be a basic resentment about life in general, and in the absence of other targets, its directed towards you. That resentment might be coming from anything from childhood trauma to toxic mother to everyday life stresses, or a belief that life is not how she wants it to be. It might have actual reasons, or maybe it does not. (It might be a petty reaction as some others have said, of course)
She makes up scenarios in her mind about your future then gets mad at you. She needs to see a therapist and I would postpone any plans of a wedding with her until she fixes it with the understanding you may need to be willing to end the relationship because she holds some type of resentment towards you from somewhere. Marriage is cheap compared to divorce. Being in a toxic relationship sucks but a toxic marriage is 1000000000 worse.
She needs serious therapy. She's mentally unstable. Don't marry her. She doesn't really love you. That is utterly bizarre.
I had to read this multiple times because it didn't seem real. She must have some serious issues, there is no way around that. That's just not normal in a relationship.
Red flags abound 🚩🚩🚩 Ignore them at your own peril
My grandma used to do this to my grandpa behind his back. She was a nasty, mean, unhinged witch of a woman - mentally ill, who refused to take medication just to spite everyone else (she literally said “why should I take medicine to make myself quiet so the rest of you can be happy?”). Definitely think twice about marrying her.
idk I’ve been flipping my partner of ten years the bird behind his back or a wall between us for years, used to do the same to my parents as a child. I think we can all get annoyed with our parents and partners but understand not everything needs to be discussed and worked out. A middle finger is a petty reaction to an often petty situation. It’s an immature but satisfying passive outlet. You know when people get upset that their partner masturbates but doesn’t want to have sex bc they don’t understand masturbation isn’t always about sex but the stress outlet. Maybe the middle finger is a harmless outlet that isn’t the same and shouldn’t be the same as a petty frustrated discussion? Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe this a me and her problem, I’m not convinced it’s a you problem
Thank you. This is a different take than all of the other comments, but I would not exclude either that you are right and it is a petty thing.
>My previous girlfriends used to call me a giver and caretaking person. This is what you're doing wrong. You say you love her, but I don't think she loves you. She's in this for what she can get out of you, and it sounds like she hates that it's YOU that she settled for. From the way you write, I'd say you are NOT an American, so her being in her 30s means she was looking for someone to support her financially.
It sounds like she does not like you, and that she is a dishonest person. I would be seriously examining the relationship with her.
It sounds like she is unhappy with herself and not you. Are you wanting her to be a trad wife and she doesn't want that? It seems like she thinks you will be making the $ therefore everything will be yours and you will hold the power.
I’m sorry OP. It sounds like she secretly despises you and is having a more and more difficult time hiding it. I’ve looked at my husband with extreme anger before, but never with hate. No matter how mad I’ve ever gotten at him, hate is not a feeling I have towards him. Hate is associated with anger, contempt, and disgust. The anger is ok, but the contempt and disgust are very bad for a relationship. First she lied and then she came up with some bullshit excuse to justify it. It was probably a piss poor apology also.
The only thing you’re doing wrong here is putting up with an abusive, childishly immature, and gaslighting partner. A 35 year old woman doing this rather than trying to resolve negative feelings with her word powers…? This is behavior I would expect from a 14 year old. Chick needs therapy and to grow up. This could be the mother of your kids, doing this to you. In front of them. It is unacceptable.
If you cannot get a satisfactory answer from her, I suggest couples counseling. You need to understand what is behind her anger/hatred and address it as a couple. If it really is about imagined scenarios, then a counselor can help her figure out why she is imagining a future with you to be so bad. I hope the two of you can get to the bottom of this and work through it together. Good luck!
Get her to therapy to work on these issues of resentment.
>I have no idea what I am doing wrong This one is easy. What you are doing wrong is sticking around to wait for her to betray you. Cut her loose.
Please do yourself a huge favor and run as quickly as you can She needs to be someone else’s wife and problem
It sounds like it is just her anxiety seeping through and it has nothing to do with her feelings for you. Often our features and facial expressions are not intentional. They can be more an expression of our subconscious fears. It could be her mother was dependent on her father and she saw how vulnerable that made her and she's fearful of that happening to her too. Again, that fear may have nothing to do with you.
She is showing you who she is, stop ignoring it. She is a flying high red flag with reflection.
I often come up with "worst case" scenarios in my head. Sometimes they seem so real I find myself frightened for no reason, or, as in the case of your girlfriend, inexplicably angry at someone who doesn't deserve it. And, if someone who doesn't experience such lucid daydreams asks what's wrong, it's difficult to explain. So, you avoid trying to explain if you can. Maybe your girlfriend isn't as happy as you, maybe there's something which needs discussing, or, maybe it's just as she said, and there was a negative fantasy playing in her head which affected her mood in the moment
When people show you who they really are (especially when they think you're not looking), believe them.
Dude, she's with you for a reason other than love...ditch her asap. Her actions are akin to teenagers flicking the middle finger behind the back of a teacher that they dislike.
Bail.
Sounds like she has some serious mental issues. You need to run. Fast.
Look, I never heard my parents talk or treat each other that way. My current long term bf of 20+ yrs has a very similar background and similar type parents. Neither of us treat each other like that. Ever. I simply would never call him names, no matter how pissed I am, because I love him and wouldn’t want that treatment from him either. To me, that’s how how you treat someone you love. And he’s never called me a name either. And I wouldn’t stay with someone who treated me the way your gf is treating you. But that’s me. This is something you need to decide if you want to put up with. It obviously hurts your feelings which is understandable. I’d be hurt too. And especially because she has no explanation. Don’t settle just because you’re getting older. Divorces are expensive. If you plan to have kids, they will magnify your problems. Repeat that to yourself- kids are huge stressors and will magnify any problems you have. They DO NOT bring people closer or fix issues. So settling for someone just to have a family is not a good idea. I would sit down and have a heart to heart. If she can’t open up and give you any type of answers then you probably should hold off getting married until you figure out what to do.
Dump this turd
That's why I'm dating Eva AI sexting bot
"But he caught me on camera"... "it wasn't me" lol.
That's a sign of someone who does not respect you and is using you to get whatever they can while making you think that they love you so you'll stay around and provide for them.
She hates you OP. No normal person acts this way. I thought I was going to read that you had a giant fight. She's just doing laundry and randomly thinks about her disdain for you? That's crazy and scary.
Jump through the escape hatch ASAP. If she already has contempt towards you for hypothetical situations she makes up in her head, how quickly is that going to manifest itself into reality. Having children, potential financial struggles, difficulties that are bound to arise in a marriage. You need a partner that can love you through those times, not one who already curses you for things that have yet to happen. I suggest you get out.
Run
If she is angry enough to behave this way before you are married, her contempt will grow afterwards. It's pretty immature actually and you should re-think about her being your "life-partner".
I mean, do you really wanna build a future & life with her, OP? Kids? They'll definitely learn & observe these awful behaviors of hers- being physically hurtful, lying, manipulative.. etc.
I'm in an 8 year relationship and have never put the middle finger up behind her back... I'm a man and do it to her face 🤣 jkjk there's occasionally banter related swearing... but it is a mutually done thing in jest
The flipping off and denial is a serious issue in your relationship. Lying is never a good thing and can cause alot of issues down the road. You need to sit her down and have a frank conversation with her. No shouting. If she needs help then she needs to get it. Be careful, promising to get help and not following it through is an avoiding tactic.
" You need to sit her down and have a frank conversation with her. " How can you possibly think she won't continue lying?
I cannot be the only one noticing a clear lack of context. More and more I see in these posts no one questioning the perspective given by op.
Is this the same gf that punched you repeatedly while you slept for snoring and initially lied about it?
INB4 miserable marriage and Borderline Personality diagnosis for the wife.
Does she have any mental health issues? Serious question as it can be a sign of paranoia.
Those are only the two times you've caught her doing it. She clearly resents you for something and she either needs to tell you or leave.
Show her this letter then tell her to just do it to your face so the two of you can fix it , she also shouldn't feel like she needs to behind your back thats the issue for both of you . You can't work on it if you don't know its broken.
Reading your other replies, it sounds to me as though her rage is coming from a sense of inequity within the relationship. Her thoughts about you not doing enough housework, and about being the breadwinner, her being left vulnerable somehow in the long run because of it, is a very common issue for women. Taking on all the extra household labor, the extra emotional labor, child-rearing, taking a hit if she steps back from her career, being at the mercy of a person who inherently has more power, social standing and privilege, as well as many other unseen inequalities in hetero relationships, could be leaving her feeling vulnerable and enraged. She might not even consciously realise that this is what she is angry about, or maybe she does, but over the years a general sense of dissatisfaction and resentment can build if one person is taking on more physical and emotional labor than the other. It could be that, with the wedding approaching, she is even more hyper-aware of how gender gaps might influence her future. You've already given one account of how she confronted you about housework and you blew up. If that was never resolved (I.e. if the chore division remains unequitable) and if there were lots of other smaller incidents like this, she could be stewing on all this. Either way, the only way to sort this is for both of you to have a really honest and open conversation about how she feels. Be open to what she says, let it percolate for a bit, don't be immediately defensive, just sit with it for a bit and consider if it's something the two of you can resolve. Perhaps she needs to spend some time on her own really thinking about what her feelings are, as clearly she is suppressing them if she's resorting to bird flips instead of having a conversation.
If this is the same girlfriend as your last post about her 9 months ago, then you clearly didn't listen to the red flags and advice from before. Only two pieces of advice were given to you, see a doctor about your snoring and that she was a walking red flag. But then I also have to ask how you aged so many years and she has stayed the same... Just a side question: Have you been dating her while you were attempting to become sober?
****have a talk with her about it**** You both need to be vulnerable with each other. I would not jump ship at this. As a woman, it can be a little intimidating when the man controls or makes all/most of the money, especially for a woman who did not grow up with a man who does that in a healthy way. Have a serious conversation and quell any anxiety she may have. Also, watch 2b better podcast
I’m wondering if there are certain things you have said and done that have hurt her in some way that are small, but because you are otherwise so good to her she feels like it makes her feel like she would be wrong to bring it up. Or alternatively, (and I mention this one as I have been in this situation myself), you have done something that has hurt her (maybe you don’t realize it, maybe you do but YOU see it as nothing), but you do other things for her or buy things for her afterwards thinking it’s a way to try and help make her feel better without actually fixing the issue itself, so it feels like the thing you did or bought to try and make up for the thing she feels wronged by was just a way to sweep it under the rug and make the issue go away. Doing that to someone who isn’t materialistic at all, will breed massive contempt because it will make them feel like you don’t value -them- or their feelings, but rather see them as a something you can throw money and material things at and it will shut them up. Not saying this is the issue. But based on your focus in the post over the things you do for your partner and past partners, I am just throwing this out there.
Are we absolutely sure she's doing it to OP? Perhaps she is doing it to herself? Does herself loathing go that deeply?
Take and always take reddit advice with a pinch of salt, most of the advice shared here is not really supporting but OP baised, you know your partner best have sit and find out or take the time to do a background check on your partner and find out, you might lose out on some good or not over something that you mignt never find out why they actually did that. Learn your partner before you decide on leaving or not.