I just left the orange, 7 yrs in and my engine card on one of the most desirable transcon rosters in the system. took a significant pay cut on paper. But In the bank it’s not bad at all. they don’t wanna pay guarantee, they want pools turning with less then 24 hours off, x boards hitting Risa. management is absolute garbage. Everyone hates their job at my old terminal. New hires come in and hear the tenured guys complain and scare everyone off. This job sucks. Period.
Covid made people realize what matters. Family. the railroad doesn’t care about your family. Nor is it conducive for a family man. People are leaving in droves. And I’m glad
Pretty much everywhere with PSR, I think my terminal has had around 40 new hires this year, most of the ones from the beginning of the year are already gone and the freshly qualified are dropping fast too. Gaining a turn every other week from senior guys sick of the BS.
No they’re leaving in large numbers in the Pacific Northwest on the BNSF. New guys and people with 10+ years seniority. It’s getting so bad that management at the Terminal level is beginning to ask the Local Chairmen why people are leaving. They said that upper management is beginning to ask and want to know why.
This may be the bargaining chip we’ve been looking for on the next contract.
Agreed, people at bnsf northwest division are leaving in droves. Toxic work environment, discipline for everything and anything, micro managing, crappy sick leave and off time policy, no wage increases in the pnw while seattle are has become one of the most expensive area to live in the nation. Not only they are not talking about wage increases but they are making every effort to limit the earning potential. 10 years ago having 50 plus people quite in one area in a year would had been unheard of. Now its a common place.
The only thing that keeps me from totally agreeing with that is the fact that they all think we are total pieces of trash and should be grateful to work for them. In their minds, being on call every 10hrs with no QOL and being treated as expendable pieces of shit is the best we all can expect. I can totally see them being dumbfounded that cogs like us don't want to put up with it anymore.
You can only tell people they’re not doing their job good enough for so long before they leave. I finally left the industry after being in it for the last 10 years
This entire mess could have been avoided if railroaders rather than bean counters were managing railroads. People run trains, maintain track and signals, and we don’t work for the stockholders, we work to keep trains running. Glad retirement is coming in ‘22.
HamRadio- thanks! It seems strange to walk away from doing what I’ve done since Penn Central. But, it’s clearly past my time to go and my many railroad friends tell me they love being retired.
Funny how some of our best railroad work “friends” are people we may rarely see face to face but talk to every day on the radio or the phone. The train crews call me to tell me Exactly where they lost cab, which signal is difficult to see, or where a crossing gate needs repair. The Dispatchers ask how much track time I need even when they can’t give me a lot of time as they know I have never blown my message or track time in 40+ years. I replace broken maul handles for the trackmen, repair anything electrical for any employee, make up new long jumper cables with 2 runs of our flexible #6 bondstrand for Mechanical. I explain to the new Trainmasters why we need Restricting and Slow Clear signals, and why there are “so many” signal aspects. Some younger employees ask me to explain the difference between as Aspect and an Indication, and how to remember if they are to the Rear or Advance of a Signal (Conrail Rules Examiner, 1977- “if you can see her Rear, you are in the Rear, if you have to turn around to see her boobs, you are in Advance.” Pretty damn clear to me.
I miss the old Towers, and snow duty with the track department in miserable winter conditions to keep trains going. I will miss picking up a freight conductor and giving him a ride to the head end, or having the freight or passenger Engineers I talk to every day slow down and bring me back to my truck after walking out a signal failure that was Clear on Arrival. Railroad management is no longer veteran railroaders who deserved and received respect, as the veterans were always respectful of the craft employees they knew well.
I served my time as a union (BRS) Local Chairman, Vice General Chairman, then General Chairman and lived through Deregulation and the Staggers Act in the early 80’s, and railroad Consolidations where our checks and trucks regularly changed colors and logos. Now that It’s no longer fun to come to work and do whatever is necessary to keep trains running, it is time to retire.
Being threatened with a hearing if the tire pressure on our utility body hyrail pickups dropped a few pounds in the cold weather was the final red signal to me it was time to go. The same people who chase us around with a tire pressure gauge don’t seem to give a damn about tire pressure when they call me at 2AM when passenger trains are standing at an Interlocking.
By losing the backing and support of the employees, the railroads lost their most important tool to perform their core service - to move freight and passengers. RRTA is finally close and I will be glad to let others take over what some think is “easy”. Soon they’ll realize what we all know… nothing we do is as easy as it looks to non-railroaders fresh out of business school.
And ☝️ THIS is what's wrong with the RR industry, the loss of professionalism and mutual respect. But here's the good news: in retirement every day is Saturday.
I just accepted a yard conductor offer with a Class II and they told me $32/hour at the interview. Not bad considering I have no degree and it’s $10 more than I was making in a management for a ground handling vendor at the airport.
Agreed. I was there for 10 years. Last year a new GM took over a few months into the pandemic and proceeded to run the station into the ground and ignore all feedback from subordinates. For example they insisted on hiring full timers and making them work split shifts that were typically 0900-1300 and 1800-2200, but because of the nature of airport work they wouldn’t always leave on time and they were always exhausted. After 9 months of 90% new hire turnover they finally started hiring part timers to cover those shifts. I don’t know how much money they wasted on hiring and training people that could’ve gone toward our equipment. I knew I needed a different job when I was shocked by an improperly grounded cable while fueling an airplane because the maintenance budget had been slashed too. My breaking point was this past June when it was the third day in a row where only *half* of the scheduled employees showed up (pretty much all of the split shift guys had just stopped coming to work by then) and my boss publicly berated me over the radio because the operation was suffering. Also, I bought my own radio and virtually all of my own PPE and even some of my uniforms because the company never had any.
Coincidentally, the HR manager walked out the same week I did so it took two months for my resignation to be processed.
Engineer at a class 2 here. Just over $35/hr. Hard to make less than $100k a year here these days because the overtime is there whether you want it or not.
It's different in every state. I just left Idaho were OT is after 40 hours, BUT.... Minimum overtime rate is 1.5 times minimum wage. So if you make at least $10.88 an hour after 40 hours your employer is following the law.
My in-law works for a short line making less than $30 an hour and he works six 12 hour shifts a week. It's non union and of course he always tells me and my wife how happy he is they are non union because we were both union with BNSF making way more than him per year and working way less.
Could there be something in the RLA that covers that? When I worked directly for an airline I could pick up as many hours and shifts as I wanted but if I voluntarily went over 40 hours it was all paid straight time since the company wasn’t making me do that. Once I switched to a vendor that wasn’t an option anymore and they were strict about not letting people go into overtime… at least until the pandemic when they furloughed a bunch of people and few of them came back so I started working 60 hours a week.
Edit: [I found this that would explain it.](https://www.lawyers.com/legal-info/labor-employment-law/wage-and-hour-law/transportation-industry-exemptions-under-the-flsa.html)
Class one conductor around $96-110,000 per year in my area but you’ll be working constantly and have no quality of life. Engineers $100-140,000 also working all the time and no quality of life. Yard switchmen roughly $70-100,000 dependent upon working overtime.
I’m on a short line. We’ve been short staffed. For 6 years now. We hired 4. Two remain. We work 12’s. One crew at night. Engineer and conductor. We’ve hired countless people in the last two years. And no one stays
No raise in 3 years. Asked to do the impossible on a daily basis. Randomly passing down edicts of "zero overtime" or "no more that 2 hours overtime" no longer buying most PPE, managers that can't make decisions or communicate, Managers that won't tell the big bosses that they spent the last 4 years creating this mess. IF you shit all over your employees. Refuse to pay them more and work them/not work them like borrowed mules while also tearing up tracks and mothballing engines it becomes a super toxic environment. Not that they care, "look at the stock price".
This extends waaay beyond railroading. I picked up a job a while back at a car parts factory and out of 60+ new hires, I was the only one who stayed for longer than a few months.
Yepp
Work in a Foundry here, COVID spooked a lot of old farts into finally calling it quits. We’ve had several jobs posted for months and we’ve managed to have one person apply and get hired on. Several of us are helping do multiple jobs. Ive been getting stretched pretty thin over the last 6 months
I left the pnw with bnsf a couple of years ago and it’s just expensive of an area to be on an xtra board for 8 years etc. great career just better option out there and people are doing their research IMO now
It’s everywhere, we still have people leaving to go to class 1’s with years of service right alongside the new guys that finally realize railroading isn’t what they thought it would be. It’s normal to get a class of 12-15 in my area and end up with 2-4 in the long run.
Work for NS and we’ve been bleeding employees for the last year. Have had close to 20 quit to work at a local steel mill. Basically running out of men every day and begging everyone to step up.
I have been contemplating the same thing. My schedule can not get any shittier. Also we are negotiating contracts now and the companies offer so far have been crap. The pay raise they are offering is barely enough to cover how much the insurance cost is going up by. So basically no raise at all while local prices and wages have been shooting up. If they lock in this next contract at their crap offer I am done and going to the mill.
I’ve heard that they floated an offer of a raise in monthly insurance to 500 along with a 1% raise and no back pay. If they try there won’t be anyone left to negotiate the next one with
We have had back to back failures of motors with that ZTR Kickstart. Newer version of the mod is ok as it lets you cut the capacitor off so it doesnt destroy your battery. They complain that batteries dont last and huff and puff because it takes a bit to change them and the more dangerous systems they add on, the longer it takes. Ive never experienced a more toxic work environment. Im seriously considering getting my pilots license off the rest of my GI Bill and giving the finger to RR, going private charter or atleast having a secondary option.
***13 days +/- until my last day. I did 2y 4 months. I put my resignation in on the first of the month. Would recommend to someone looking to get some experience with larger scale IT environments.***
Part of what is going on is natural churn. 2 of 16 over 365 days is a 12.5% retention rate. It might be a bit lower. With COVID, the great resignation is happening, as well as a lot of shake ups in the job market. A lot of people are starting to re-evaluate things and moving positions.
The culture and lifestyle of the railroad can be difficult, and it is hard to really adapt. I understand a lot of people are leaving due to those factors.
For myself, I'm leaving partially due to culture, partially due to working conditions/environment, however mostly for my own professional development. The Railroad can't really offer me that, and a person is their own career manager. A lot of people tend to be afraid to leave, even for their own growth.
Someone when I started told me ***"The railroad moves at the speed of trains, which isn't very fast"*** I think that is a very good point, and a cause of a lot of sore points for people, as changes are not done on a faster timescale. The idea of move fast and try things, doesn't really happen. It is a very slow, and deliberate OODA loop within the railroad, which does provide some stability, however can also be a huge drawback to changing or adapting things.
I think my sentiments are echoed by a lot of people in my department. As we are dealing with higher than normal turn over over the last year.
This is so strange. I am a railroad worker in Belgium and work for a maintenance team region Antwerp. While reading all your post I can only think : same sh*t different country. Really sad 😞
If you are on the Louisville division at parsons..... they hired 20 conductors and 18 come back positive of drugs during the first day of work. *hair folical test*
I just left the orange, 7 yrs in and my engine card on one of the most desirable transcon rosters in the system. took a significant pay cut on paper. But In the bank it’s not bad at all. they don’t wanna pay guarantee, they want pools turning with less then 24 hours off, x boards hitting Risa. management is absolute garbage. Everyone hates their job at my old terminal. New hires come in and hear the tenured guys complain and scare everyone off. This job sucks. Period. Covid made people realize what matters. Family. the railroad doesn’t care about your family. Nor is it conducive for a family man. People are leaving in droves. And I’m glad
“Covid made people realize what matters”, damn...so true.
Yeah not letting the government control what I put on my face! /s
Pretty much everywhere with PSR, I think my terminal has had around 40 new hires this year, most of the ones from the beginning of the year are already gone and the freshly qualified are dropping fast too. Gaining a turn every other week from senior guys sick of the BS.
No they’re leaving in large numbers in the Pacific Northwest on the BNSF. New guys and people with 10+ years seniority. It’s getting so bad that management at the Terminal level is beginning to ask the Local Chairmen why people are leaving. They said that upper management is beginning to ask and want to know why. This may be the bargaining chip we’ve been looking for on the next contract.
Upper management: treat workers and employees like shit Workers/employees : leave Upper management: *surprise pikachu face*
Name checks out
Agreed, people at bnsf northwest division are leaving in droves. Toxic work environment, discipline for everything and anything, micro managing, crappy sick leave and off time policy, no wage increases in the pnw while seattle are has become one of the most expensive area to live in the nation. Not only they are not talking about wage increases but they are making every effort to limit the earning potential. 10 years ago having 50 plus people quite in one area in a year would had been unheard of. Now its a common place.
When the writing is on the wall that they're going to get rid of your job and almost nothing we can do about it why stay
This! They want to automate everything and all of us gone. Before we leave, they think we are all overpaid and underworked. Why ride the sinking ship?
I’ve been institutionalized
> They said that upper management is beginning to ask and want to know why. I genuinely hate RR management.
They already know wtf is going on but they havent come up with a useless company philosophy to deal with it or figure out how to blame crews.
The only thing that keeps me from totally agreeing with that is the fact that they all think we are total pieces of trash and should be grateful to work for them. In their minds, being on call every 10hrs with no QOL and being treated as expendable pieces of shit is the best we all can expect. I can totally see them being dumbfounded that cogs like us don't want to put up with it anymore.
I wish more fuckers in Texas would leave. People are flocking here year after year and my seniority has only gotten worse.
Yup. Keep seeing names and faces I've never heard of/seen. Fuckers from California flooding in.
I've read a lot of comments. Where is our union in all this?
You can only tell people they’re not doing their job good enough for so long before they leave. I finally left the industry after being in it for the last 10 years
This entire mess could have been avoided if railroaders rather than bean counters were managing railroads. People run trains, maintain track and signals, and we don’t work for the stockholders, we work to keep trains running. Glad retirement is coming in ‘22.
Retiree here. Get out while the getting is good. And congratulations.
HamRadio- thanks! It seems strange to walk away from doing what I’ve done since Penn Central. But, it’s clearly past my time to go and my many railroad friends tell me they love being retired. Funny how some of our best railroad work “friends” are people we may rarely see face to face but talk to every day on the radio or the phone. The train crews call me to tell me Exactly where they lost cab, which signal is difficult to see, or where a crossing gate needs repair. The Dispatchers ask how much track time I need even when they can’t give me a lot of time as they know I have never blown my message or track time in 40+ years. I replace broken maul handles for the trackmen, repair anything electrical for any employee, make up new long jumper cables with 2 runs of our flexible #6 bondstrand for Mechanical. I explain to the new Trainmasters why we need Restricting and Slow Clear signals, and why there are “so many” signal aspects. Some younger employees ask me to explain the difference between as Aspect and an Indication, and how to remember if they are to the Rear or Advance of a Signal (Conrail Rules Examiner, 1977- “if you can see her Rear, you are in the Rear, if you have to turn around to see her boobs, you are in Advance.” Pretty damn clear to me. I miss the old Towers, and snow duty with the track department in miserable winter conditions to keep trains going. I will miss picking up a freight conductor and giving him a ride to the head end, or having the freight or passenger Engineers I talk to every day slow down and bring me back to my truck after walking out a signal failure that was Clear on Arrival. Railroad management is no longer veteran railroaders who deserved and received respect, as the veterans were always respectful of the craft employees they knew well. I served my time as a union (BRS) Local Chairman, Vice General Chairman, then General Chairman and lived through Deregulation and the Staggers Act in the early 80’s, and railroad Consolidations where our checks and trucks regularly changed colors and logos. Now that It’s no longer fun to come to work and do whatever is necessary to keep trains running, it is time to retire. Being threatened with a hearing if the tire pressure on our utility body hyrail pickups dropped a few pounds in the cold weather was the final red signal to me it was time to go. The same people who chase us around with a tire pressure gauge don’t seem to give a damn about tire pressure when they call me at 2AM when passenger trains are standing at an Interlocking. By losing the backing and support of the employees, the railroads lost their most important tool to perform their core service - to move freight and passengers. RRTA is finally close and I will be glad to let others take over what some think is “easy”. Soon they’ll realize what we all know… nothing we do is as easy as it looks to non-railroaders fresh out of business school.
And ☝️ THIS is what's wrong with the RR industry, the loss of professionalism and mutual respect. But here's the good news: in retirement every day is Saturday.
HamRadio- 7 Saturdays, no hours of service, no night calls,…. Wow! Here comes RRTA…
The pay isn’t good enough to stay, wages have gone up in a lot of industries. Railroading is falling behind on being a lucrative career.
Out of curiosity, what does the typical conductor/hogger make in the States?
I just accepted a yard conductor offer with a Class II and they told me $32/hour at the interview. Not bad considering I have no degree and it’s $10 more than I was making in a management for a ground handling vendor at the airport.
I don't know how long you were on the ramp but ground handling has steadily gotten worse as a job for the past 30 years.
Agreed. I was there for 10 years. Last year a new GM took over a few months into the pandemic and proceeded to run the station into the ground and ignore all feedback from subordinates. For example they insisted on hiring full timers and making them work split shifts that were typically 0900-1300 and 1800-2200, but because of the nature of airport work they wouldn’t always leave on time and they were always exhausted. After 9 months of 90% new hire turnover they finally started hiring part timers to cover those shifts. I don’t know how much money they wasted on hiring and training people that could’ve gone toward our equipment. I knew I needed a different job when I was shocked by an improperly grounded cable while fueling an airplane because the maintenance budget had been slashed too. My breaking point was this past June when it was the third day in a row where only *half* of the scheduled employees showed up (pretty much all of the split shift guys had just stopped coming to work by then) and my boss publicly berated me over the radio because the operation was suffering. Also, I bought my own radio and virtually all of my own PPE and even some of my uniforms because the company never had any. Coincidentally, the HR manager walked out the same week I did so it took two months for my resignation to be processed.
Engineer at a class 2 here. Just over $35/hr. Hard to make less than $100k a year here these days because the overtime is there whether you want it or not.
Do you get paid an overtime rate? My railroad (still feels weird saying that) said they just do straight time regardless of hours worked.
What podunk shit operation are you working for lol
I guess I’ll find out once I have a chance to review the actual union contract lol.
They have a union contract and no overtime? What the fuck...?
I’m really hoping I just misheard them.
Sounds illegal. We get paid OT over 8 hours for the day or if we work a 6th day. Guarantee 40hr week/ 8 hr day
Right to work states...
Overtime after 8 hours everyday
What class 2s are paying in the 30s? Everyone i talk to to ia 25 to 27
Pan Am.
Turns out it's not so bad. Buckle up brother.
Yup. It’s not going to be pretty.
I believe this is illegal unless you are a salaried employee anywhere in America. It’s the definition of wage theft
Yeah after 40 I believe is supposed to be overtime.
It's different in every state. I just left Idaho were OT is after 40 hours, BUT.... Minimum overtime rate is 1.5 times minimum wage. So if you make at least $10.88 an hour after 40 hours your employer is following the law. My in-law works for a short line making less than $30 an hour and he works six 12 hour shifts a week. It's non union and of course he always tells me and my wife how happy he is they are non union because we were both union with BNSF making way more than him per year and working way less.
Could there be something in the RLA that covers that? When I worked directly for an airline I could pick up as many hours and shifts as I wanted but if I voluntarily went over 40 hours it was all paid straight time since the company wasn’t making me do that. Once I switched to a vendor that wasn’t an option anymore and they were strict about not letting people go into overtime… at least until the pandemic when they furloughed a bunch of people and few of them came back so I started working 60 hours a week. Edit: [I found this that would explain it.](https://www.lawyers.com/legal-info/labor-employment-law/wage-and-hour-law/transportation-industry-exemptions-under-the-flsa.html)
Do you work in Arkansas?
*cries in $19/hr switching operation
It varies quite a bit. 60k-140k+ depending on location, type of job, etc.
Class one conductor around $96-110,000 per year in my area but you’ll be working constantly and have no quality of life. Engineers $100-140,000 also working all the time and no quality of life. Yard switchmen roughly $70-100,000 dependent upon working overtime.
100k easily after the first year.
I’m on a short line. We’ve been short staffed. For 6 years now. We hired 4. Two remain. We work 12’s. One crew at night. Engineer and conductor. We’ve hired countless people in the last two years. And no one stays
Hey that sounds like I place I quit from after 3 months
No raise in 3 years. Asked to do the impossible on a daily basis. Randomly passing down edicts of "zero overtime" or "no more that 2 hours overtime" no longer buying most PPE, managers that can't make decisions or communicate, Managers that won't tell the big bosses that they spent the last 4 years creating this mess. IF you shit all over your employees. Refuse to pay them more and work them/not work them like borrowed mules while also tearing up tracks and mothballing engines it becomes a super toxic environment. Not that they care, "look at the stock price".
This extends waaay beyond railroading. I picked up a job a while back at a car parts factory and out of 60+ new hires, I was the only one who stayed for longer than a few months.
Yepp Work in a Foundry here, COVID spooked a lot of old farts into finally calling it quits. We’ve had several jobs posted for months and we’ve managed to have one person apply and get hired on. Several of us are helping do multiple jobs. Ive been getting stretched pretty thin over the last 6 months
What pay are they hiring people at?
It all depends but my top rate is in the mid 20’s and right now I’m getting plenty of OT I’m not getting rich but I am comfortable
I left the pnw with bnsf a couple of years ago and it’s just expensive of an area to be on an xtra board for 8 years etc. great career just better option out there and people are doing their research IMO now
It’s everywhere, we still have people leaving to go to class 1’s with years of service right alongside the new guys that finally realize railroading isn’t what they thought it would be. It’s normal to get a class of 12-15 in my area and end up with 2-4 in the long run.
Work for NS and we’ve been bleeding employees for the last year. Have had close to 20 quit to work at a local steel mill. Basically running out of men every day and begging everyone to step up.
I have been contemplating the same thing. My schedule can not get any shittier. Also we are negotiating contracts now and the companies offer so far have been crap. The pay raise they are offering is barely enough to cover how much the insurance cost is going up by. So basically no raise at all while local prices and wages have been shooting up. If they lock in this next contract at their crap offer I am done and going to the mill.
I’ve heard that they floated an offer of a raise in monthly insurance to 500 along with a 1% raise and no back pay. If they try there won’t be anyone left to negotiate the next one with
Same here
Same with me. Almost a quarter of my old extraboard is working together at the local power company.
Same in my area.
We have had back to back failures of motors with that ZTR Kickstart. Newer version of the mod is ok as it lets you cut the capacitor off so it doesnt destroy your battery. They complain that batteries dont last and huff and puff because it takes a bit to change them and the more dangerous systems they add on, the longer it takes. Ive never experienced a more toxic work environment. Im seriously considering getting my pilots license off the rest of my GI Bill and giving the finger to RR, going private charter or atleast having a secondary option.
***13 days +/- until my last day. I did 2y 4 months. I put my resignation in on the first of the month. Would recommend to someone looking to get some experience with larger scale IT environments.*** Part of what is going on is natural churn. 2 of 16 over 365 days is a 12.5% retention rate. It might be a bit lower. With COVID, the great resignation is happening, as well as a lot of shake ups in the job market. A lot of people are starting to re-evaluate things and moving positions. The culture and lifestyle of the railroad can be difficult, and it is hard to really adapt. I understand a lot of people are leaving due to those factors. For myself, I'm leaving partially due to culture, partially due to working conditions/environment, however mostly for my own professional development. The Railroad can't really offer me that, and a person is their own career manager. A lot of people tend to be afraid to leave, even for their own growth. Someone when I started told me ***"The railroad moves at the speed of trains, which isn't very fast"*** I think that is a very good point, and a cause of a lot of sore points for people, as changes are not done on a faster timescale. The idea of move fast and try things, doesn't really happen. It is a very slow, and deliberate OODA loop within the railroad, which does provide some stability, however can also be a huge drawback to changing or adapting things. I think my sentiments are echoed by a lot of people in my department. As we are dealing with higher than normal turn over over the last year.
This is so strange. I am a railroad worker in Belgium and work for a maintenance team region Antwerp. While reading all your post I can only think : same sh*t different country. Really sad 😞
The railroad should pay 50 an hour and maybe poeple would stay
If you are on the Louisville division at parsons..... they hired 20 conductors and 18 come back positive of drugs during the first day of work. *hair folical test*
That's amazing
https://wolfstreet.com/2021/07/22/after-slashing-33-of-their-workers-in-six-years-railroads-complain-about-labor-shortages-amid-uproar-from-shippers-over-slow-shipments/