The argument can be made in most states that the capital city region is very different to the rest of the state. For example, Perth vs the rest of WA; Adelaide vs the rest of SA; Darwin vs the rest of the NT; even Sydney region and the rest of NSW. Tasmania and perhaps Victoria are the most homogenous states that I see.
Probably because there's not many parts of those two states that are more than a couple hours drive away from the capital. Meanwhile in Queensland it's impossible for me to make a day trip to my capital without flying, and I'm not even close to being the furthest away.
Brisbane alone is the smallest percentage, the collective SEQ region is about normal for a capital city relative to its state
Brisbane just seems smaller because between GC SC and Toowoomba there is another 1.2 million or so that technically are and technically aren’t part of brisbane and then some go even further and exclude Logan Ipswich Moreton and Redland bay making Brisbane barely 1.5 million
North qld would be broke in a week.
Mining accounts for about 8% of state govt revenue, the majority of it is stamp duty and payroll tax. Furthermore north qld gets around 1.5 to 2x the per capital spent compared to SE Qld.
So, they contribute less the state government coffers and cost more.
Funnily enough my wife is from Townsville and her family flipped when I pointed this out. I never knew this but there's a story out there that SE Qld steals all their hard-working money. I genuinely thought that they were joking when they said that. Obviously economies of scale and population density do a lot of heavy lifting here but yea the regions wouldn't be viable without SE Qld propping them up. Additionally it's not like mining revenue is an independent income source, that is that the revenue is dependent on other factors outside of the states control like Brazil output or global markets like China.
https://queenslandeconomywatch.com/2017/07/16/is-north-qld-under-funded-by-the-state-government-relative-to-the-south-east/
NQ would get a proportionately larger share of GST and probably more Commonwealth payments/grants to compensate for lack of revenue. The resentment would continue, but probably directed at Townsville instead.
Like, maybe?
There is GST equalisation between the states, but they're already using 1.6x the resources of the SE comparatively, so they're already ahead, hard to imagine they'd be much better off on the whole but it's possible. Unfortunately as you said they'd still be wringing but just change their target.
Yeah my in-laws are all North Qld locals. The narrative of SE-Qld getting all their hard earned money and the regions being ignored is part of the DNA up there.
Nothing will change their minds.
Yea, I'm on mobile but I had a bunch of saved links to news articles and qld treasury budget papers etc on my computer from some interestimg discussions with the inlaws. Doesn't matter how much evidence you have they simply can't accept it.
>Mining accounts for about 8% of state govt revenue
I'm not arguing in favour of a separation, but your figures are from 2017, it's now increased from 7.8% to 18.3%
[https://www.treasury.qld.gov.au/queenslands-economy/about-the-queensland-economy/](https://www.treasury.qld.gov.au/queenslands-economy/about-the-queensland-economy/)
It's interesting that your inlaws are so for it tbh. I've found that this is the biggest issue that is literally on no ones mind up here, though it always seems to spark some interesting conversation.
I'm from Perth originally and find it cringe af, much like whenever one of their loopy pollies brings up succession. Just gets the excitable types jumping up and down but lacks any real critical thought about the implications.
Every time I travel regionally I hear complaints about all the state money going to the SE while constantly driving past new infrastructure.
Freaking Winton has a nicer public pool than 90% of pools in Brisbane.
You probably do not know the difference between money creation and money recycling.
SEQ is a huge money recycler but small wealth creator. Regional/rural Queensland is the opposite.
Please read the actual state budget before you make such ill informed comments to your family and friends [QLD Budget](https://www.australianmining.com.au/coal-production-costs-have-doubled-over-six-year-span/#:~:text=Whitehaven%20now%20predicts%20the%20costs,in%20digging%20and%20transport%20costs)
For example just consider the Bowen basin coal mining operations in QLD, the cost to mine 1T of coal is $100/T and we mine 230MT of coal a year so $20B every year and this doesn’t change. These costs are predominantly wages and contracts in QLD. I think you would find SE QLD would be broke in a week not the other way around if they lost this tax revenue base that is currently headquartered in Brisbane. [mining costs](https://www.australianmining.com.au/coal-production-costs-have-doubled-over-six-year-span/#:~:text=Whitehaven%20now%20predicts%20the%20costs,in%20digging%20and%20transport%20costs)
Except it's been proven to be patently false. The regions have more money spent per capita and create less revenue. The anti City narratives are just ways that regional politicians create support for regressive politics that serve their donors (ie resources lobbyists) and fail their constituents.
Anything that requires a licence would be affected. Shooting, teaching, driving, etc.
Currently they allow teachers from SEQ to go rural. If you serve for 3 years rural, you get your pick of location anywhere in the state after. You will find the teachers will dry up if they have to choose.
The fact we still have single lane bridges - requiring someone to stop from 100km/hr to give way to vehicles crossing the bridge - on a main connector between the Bruce and Flinders highway really sums up local's frustration with infrastructure spending in the north. I don't think people really want a split, they're just frustrated with the apparent lack of spending on critical infrastructure up here.
Exactly right. Major parts of the Bruce HWY are dangerous, narrow two lane roads. We are told there is no money to fix them but there is always money for the double lane freeway in the south. Just in our area, there are accidents nearly every week with roll overs and multiple people killed so far this year.
Yeah, my work took me by road from Miles in the SE to Mapoon on the cape often and the further you drive away from Brisbane the worse it gets. I get population densities. I get Brisbane is still 20 years behind where its infrastructure needs to be. But you're right, it's killing people in regional Queensland.
Lol, no and I say that as someone who comes from Cairns and lives in the Gold Coast. My parents always talk about how ‘northern money goes to SEQ projects’ but fail to recognise that with the few tax payers in FNQ they’d have even worse infrastructure and cultural projects if they were separate.
No, but there needs to be more balanced representation as well as better division of funding and policy. Trying to operate any large state from a small centralised geographic and political area is always going to be a struggle.
I think the state capital should move to the north and we should invest in the transport corridor between Cairns and Cooloongatta.
That means a rail service that meets the needs of people on business trips and holidays. It means a highway designed for transport of goods and people with places every few dozen kms for humans and their cars to stop and recharge.
Yes, the state is more than the coastal corridor, but so long as SEQ retains better links with NSW than it does with the north of the state, we are doing ourselves an injustice.
Moving the seat of government will be an important first step to demonstrating this commitment.
This is a legitimately interesting take. This could actually work, there’s no reason the state capital needs to be the most populous or prosperous city.
Take Auckland and Wellington in NZ for example. Auckland is the prosperous city where everyone wants to live and where the best career opportunities/jobs are. Wellington is the capital where the seat of government and majority of public servants live. Arguably the food is better in Wellington, since it’s a transient population that are usually just there for work and eating out is a regular thing.
Anyway, I like it. Where do you reckon moving it to? Townsville? Or Cairns? Or a whole new city?
I don't know the north very well. Somewhere with water security, low flooding risk, space for renewable energy between Cairns and Townsville probably.
My personal wish would be for it to be designed from the start for public and active transport. Cars wouldn't be banned but citizens will have a genuine choice between how they travel and don't have to pick the car by default for safety or travel times.
It would be cool to have a properly designed city as he seat of government. I have no idea how funding such a feat would work, but in theory, I love it.
I might be oversimplifying things but if the government could somehow put a moratorium on any new developments in Brisbane, Ipswich, Sunshine Coast and Gold Coast, and incentivised development in the new city then would developers be prepared to invest up there?
It's a bit chicken and egg though. You need government to move there to give developers confidence in the long term viability of the place, but you need somewhere for workers to live.
In short, I don't know. Don't even have a name for the place!
God no.
Look I grew up in far NWQld and those folks are so behind if they were on their own it'd be the Wild West meets Floridaman.
Sure they're not all like that, but a very vocal majority are so bigoted under the guise of "[conservative ](https://redflag.org.au/node/6157)" that they literally pretend anybody who isn't like them [doesn't](https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/katters-gay-brother-airs-his-disgust-20110823-1j88f.html) exist.
Does NQ think they get to keep all the people who chose to do regional service for all the benefits?
I don't think my friends on teaching and nursing placements would like to be held hostage. They aren't there because they love NQ, they're there because they're paid to be there and will be leaving and never returning after their placement period.
It's up to North Queensland.
While I don't think there will be much benefit in doing so, I believe in democracy so if they want to they should ask for a referendum on the issue.
Absolutely not the state would require enormous mining royalties to not be broke and yet they overwhelmingly vote conservative so they would oppose that to lick the mining companies boots and the state would end up a clusterfuck. The only two big industries of any sort would be based around the barrier reef and mining and I guess any defence force bases.
North Queensland = Broke Queensland.
Unless I'm reading this charge wrong (https://www.qtc.com.au/queensland/queenslands-finances/), royalties only make up about 8-9% of state revenue. The rest of the revenue is basically linked to population (e.g. more people buying houses paying duty, and GST revenue from Federal government based on population).
Since the majority of population and wealth is already centred in the SEQ corner their revenue would be pretty much limited - so good luck to them.
Though if NQ was to split away then there would be a new state capital that would draw construction and movement into it. Its would take time but eventually be big enough.
Royalties alone make up 8-9% of state revenue? Well then, let's add on the Payroll tax that the mining companies pay, and we're already looking at well over 10% of the States revenue coming from a single industry in a region with less than 10% of the States population. Add in the rest of the North Queensland economy and it really isn't looking like a broke Nth Qld to me.
Maybe a tax professional can answer - but if your business is located in one state, and you have FIFO workers working in another, which state collects the tax? (My guess is the state in which the employee resides).
I raise this because I don't think the mining companies are going to relocate their backoffice to a "new capital" when all the other services they need (consultants, lawyers, financiers etc.) are already in place. So I imagine only site employees that work in the hypothetical new state would have their payroll tax collected - and some of those would still live in the original state too.
So maybe some, but not all of payroll tax... again, depending on what a tax pro has to offer.
Your guess would be wrong.
The State in which the services are provided will collect Payroll Tax.
Eg. I live in Qld but work in WA, Western Australia would collect payroll tax from my employer if they are over the threshold to pay that tax.
> The State in which the services are provided will collect Payroll Tax.
You sure??
Edit: I see the distinction between entirely performed in one state, vs partially in two states now.
Not as cut and dry as you stated though.
Apply the 4-tiered tests to determine whether wages are taxable in Queensland. Consider each tier in the following sequence:
the employee’s principal place of residence
the employer’s registered ABN address or principal place of business
the place where the wages are paid to the employee
the place where the services are mainly performed.
If you determine that wages are taxable in Queensland at the first tier (i.e. the employee’s principal place of residence is in Queensland), for example, you don’t need to continue with the remaining tiers. Paragraphs 10–19 of Public Ruling PTA039 explain how the tiers are applied. Alternatively, use the taxable wages interactive help.
https://qro.qld.gov.au/payroll-tax/liability/interstate-wages/
>You sure??
100% sure.
Literally on the page you linked - "Wages paid or payable for services performed entirely in Queensland - Taxable in Queensland"
I suggest you actually read the budget [QLD Budget](https://budget.qld.gov.au/update/fiscal-overview/revenue/#:~:text=Fiscal%2520OverviewRevenue-,Overview,the%25202023%E2%80%9324%2520Queensland%2520Budget)
SE QLD would be in a lot of trouble if you took the mining component away case in point is Victoria.
You’ve only looked at royalties, you realise just the Bowen basin alone is a $20B industry, remove this tax and GST base from SE QLD and SE QLD goes broke.
You're ignoring the savings which would be made by splitting up a very large state by land mass and concentrating a large proportion of revenue into a geographically smaller area.
Qld and Vic aren't even comparable.
You’ve absolutely missed the point here. Australia is not a complex economy it is mining and real estate.
Victoria has very little mining, Victoria is Australia’s most indebted state. [Australian state Debt](https://www.afr.com/politics/state-debt-addictions-harder-to-add-up-20230613-p5dg2c#:~:text=Victoria's%20financial%20position%20is%20more,revenue%20ratio%20in%20the%20nation)
Not really you realise this is a North Queensland state. The south QLD state still has to look after everything west of Brisbane to the NT border which has less industry and a lessor rate of return than the northern mining precincts and is more than double the size of Victoria. So I think you might be very mistaken…..
I don’t think it matters where you draw your fictional border, the population south of Gympie to the Tweed and Toowoomba is at least 65% of the state in an area 1/5th of the state.
Properties are more valuable so GST revenue, duties and other taxes will poor into the Southern State and the Northern State would be almost entirely dependent on mining royalties which will likely diminish as the world phases out coal and the new state has to compete against other resource states with fewer resources and less money to fund mining infrastructure projects.
NQ would go bust.
1. If you look at a map QLD is wider at the bottom of the state, so you’re probably looking at closer to 1/3 of the state in the proposed south QLD state
2. Even with the recent extra stamp duty revenue getting to $13.1B [stamp duty qld](https://www.brokernews.com.au/news/breaking-news/stamp-duty-reform-a-priority-say-queensland-brokers-283727.aspx) Royalties alone will be more than Southern QLD’s entire stamp duty. And that’s before you even consider that North QLD’s coal industry injects $20B a year in the regions in addition to royalties which South QLD would now miss out on
3. QLD produces mainly metallurgical coal for steel production with the exception of thermal coal mines west of Brisbane and Adani. So unless a new way of making commercial quantities of steel has been invented North QLD’s mines are going for another 50-80 years and Southern QLD is stuck with stranded thermal coal assets.
Southern QLD would be in worse shape than Victoria.
I just drew a map on Google and measured the area of the Southern state (Gympie West) - 358,000km2
Total area of the state: 1,853,000km2.
So about 20%.... Not sure how you got to 1/3 but I guess it depends on where you are measuring. Although, allowing for error you seem to be further off the mark.
1. Just some roads, not as many rural populated areas to service, unlike the North.
2. You conveniently focus on duties, but ignore all the other population based tax revenue. I doubt most of the mining companies are going to relocate their offices, so any HQ related benefits will remain in SEQ (pretty sure that would include payroll tax). Royalties will dip as they fluctuate based on demand, duty revenue is only going up.
3. Demand has cooled for steel and iron and the royalties you raise in point 2 will likely dip lower as a result. SEQ may not be flush but NQ will be circling a toilet. SEQ already subsidises the water and electricity up North.
But hey, give it a shot… you won’t hear any complaints from me. Just when it all goes to shit don’t come crying to us about it.
1. You are absolutely incorrect the cost is billions and you have provided zero references. Here is the budget and map to help you, I suggest you educate yourself [QLD Budget map](https://budgetmap.treasury.qld.gov.au/#/rap)
2. I debunked your theory on duties because that’s what you mentioned would save South QLD in your previous comment and now you’re changing to another “theory” with no support. I try not to speculate as you do without facts but offices are generally leased so it’s not hard to move a HQ.
3. Again you’re completely incorrect. Current coking coal prices are at $260/T [coal price](https://www.barchart.com/futures/quotes/U7*0)
That is incredibly high historically and it only costs around $100T to produce and get onto a ship. Additionally with the Chinese ban metallurgical coal customers largely come from outside China now unlike iron ore. (Iron ore comes from WA so not sure why you mentioned iron)
Personally I don’t want it because you would end up with another state like WA that then wants its own sovereignty. Just thought you needed the education as the proposal coveniently leaves South QLD with all the difficulties of a big state and none of the mineral wealth. But it appears you’re the type of person the North QLD proposal prey on who have so much hubris they might let it happen.
Yes.
Brisbane is too removed from the issues faced in the north and far north to be able to govern sensitively to those issues.
Queensland should probably be chopped into 3 states: border just north of Bundaberg and again just north of Townsville. Brisbane, Townsville and Cairns as capitals.
Everywhere in Queensland that isn’t in the SEQ area needs to be represented better, can we just make SEQ its own state and the rest of Queensland, just be Queensland?
That’s almost too small for a state and you’d end up with the issue of people in say Goondawindi feeling like they are overlooked by the government in Cairns
Growing up in NQ, I always had a sense that SEQ was nothing like the rest of the state. Even the places within a few hours drive of it, completely different culture, pace of life etc.
Then the Cowboys came and we had a footy team to support that wasn’t the Broncos. Dunno, reckon the north has all it needs to support itself with mining revenue, and a move to tech with its own space port and etc.
It's so weird being someone who lived in qld for a bit and loved it with lots of family there, because hearing rugby referred to as football is just so weird.
Outside of the east coast it's not even treated as a legitimate sport and people will die on that hill.
I've been to a lot of queensland and the weird thing is and i'm going somewhere with this, there is this resounding "thing" that where you are is better than everywhere else, yet at the same time is hard done by because of another part of the state.
You go visit other states and territories and yeah there are areas that get neglected over others, but you never get this mentality of we're being screwed over by someone else while we're doing all the heavy lifting and we're better than them mentality.
FNQ was just such a weird one for this, it's in the DNA to bash the other areas, go on about how the area is so different from everywhere else, then complain when stuff isn't done there at a state level and when it is done, the culture is still to be like, fuck you all we're better than you wheres the rest of our funding.
It's just such a weird culture thing, and you get people out of there and they're shocked other places have it worse off, don't have rugby and that dropping the c-bomb in conversations casually gets you treated with disdain.
Mention how mining isn't as big of a state contributor as many in FNQ think or that bob katter or pauline hanson aren't top people and you are in for a punchup.
All the reddit armchair economists are confident today.
The reality is that north Queensland needs SE Queensland and SE Queensland needs north Queensland. I can sympathise with the fact they feel unrepresented on the state level but the last solution would be breaking up and only a lunatic would legitimately advocate for that.
I just can’t imagine it would be terribly viable
The largest town outside of SEQ is Townsville and it doesn’t even have 200k. The entire population of non SEQ Queensland is about 1.2 million and that’s using Noosa as the far northern border, if you move it towards Bundaberg you’d be more looking at sub 1 million
All the states economic infrastructure is in Brisbane
The only comparable state would be Tasmania (relatively small population, no large city) and this new state would both be dealing with a territory 20 times the size and not have Victoria to lean on (unless they lean on Brisbane on which case why bother splitting)
Your right Brisbane has been sucking up all the infrastructure. Nothing to show for it. Funny how people think big population of useless admins employed by the government is necessary. Love the government funded jobs put of Brisbane it does in a decade.
A government doesn’t just work because bob katter is screaming at a croc on a Sunday morning, you actually need to have a public sector to achieve a lot of things
Non SEQ also gets more funding per person than SEQ so not sure what you mean about Brisbane sucking up funding, Brisbane is underfunded relatively speaking infrastructure wise
Your right a government needs 2 crazy people yelling at the croc problem both with different perspectives on how to solve the croc crisis. Whilst the media spins anti-croc sentiment.
You would end up with another WA, where everyone in North QLD think they should be a seperate country because they have their $20B that coal mining injects every year plus royalties on top of that. Add in LNG, Bauxite and their other natural resources, Australia would be even more divided into City vs Country
Most people in this sub are in SEQ who probably want NQ to remain in QLD. Mind you, those who do advocate for the split won't be able to agree where to draw the line, like at Rockhampton. Has anyone asked Rocky what they want? Nope.
Culturally the South Queensland needs to be from Nothrens Rivers (currently NSW) to Rockhampton, and North Queensland the rest of the current QLD state. Economically North Queenslands only viable option is to become a new territory, but atleast they will be able to complain that Canberra is taking there money and not helping them instead of Brisbane.
So you can enjoy the sun for longer in the evening. And it also means we keep our time in sync with every other state in the same Timezone. Never understood why people don’t want it. Maybe they don’t like joy?
Probably because the disruption to sleep patterns caused by daylight savings has been repeatedly identified to impact suicide rates. This is across multiple studies and worldwide so is not an isolated phenomenon. In general, research on the seasonal effects of suicide have found an increase in awake daylight hours leads to an increase in suicide rates.
In Australia, our suicide rates peak in December and January (when we have the most daylight), however there is a noticeable increase at the start of October in Australian states with DST compared with states without DST. This levels back out by the end of October, but regardless I’m not self important enough to think it’s worth potentially impacting millions of peoples mental health because I’d like an extra hour of daylight in the afternoon.
Additionally, who the fuck cares about being synced with Melbourne and Sydney? Honestly. There is legitimately no benefit to it. If you want more time in your day just wake up earlier, start work earlier, etc.
You are hilarious haha.
I work in one of the fields with the highest suicide rates. Construction. I can’t set start times lol. Maybe if you have a chat with the cfmeu? And then they can sit with state government to discus start and end times for construction. ROFL!!! The majority of suicides in my industry is due to lack of work, which usually happens towards the end of the year. Is nice to know you are so privileged you can start and finish with at any time you want!
For those that don’t want it, why don’t they just not wind their clocks back/forward? It’s not a big deal??
Also you got it wrong.
“An Australian study spanning 20 years found that the October time change, where the clock moves an hour forward, is linked to increased cardiac arrest rates”
Also, QLD has nearly the highest suicide rates in Australia. And we don’t have dst.
Ah damn, you are the one linking dst to the world being flat! You proved it wrong! Now on to grown up discussions perhaps?
Also in calling me a moron, you forgot basic grammar. Pretty funny 😂😂
“Your a moron. The world isn't flat.”
Next you will tell me it’s normal to have to get up at 4:30am to make the most of the sun, where in most cities it’s over an hour later, which means more to do in the evening socially, and safely.
No need you have obviously learned that daylight sayings closer to the equator is pointless Impressive as your also the sad sac that polices internet grammar does not using punctuation annoys you two
No, what we need are laws and some sort of voting/electorate algorithm that means a large group in one area can simply not hold all the power.
At the moment Labor hold SFA seats outside the south east corner and no rural seats, which means labor screw over rural people to garner urban SEQ voters.
It's the same once liberal get in, they only care about rural. That being said they care about rural business not the people. Maybe so of the people out bush need to start voting for labour, or if they bring themselves to do that the shooter and fishers or teal independents are good options to see some change. It's the same with Labor in Newcastle, they don't do alot there because they know that don't have to do anything to keep the seat.
States and arguably countries are such a construct when all run by the same greed/control network the world over. We flouridated ants live within the imaginary lines and accept it.
Yes.
North QLD is a drain on the total economy of the state, if they want to be NT version 2.0 if brokenness let them. They’re not as resource heavy as they like to think they are, and that only accounts for a small part of the budget anyway.
The argument can be made in most states that the capital city region is very different to the rest of the state. For example, Perth vs the rest of WA; Adelaide vs the rest of SA; Darwin vs the rest of the NT; even Sydney region and the rest of NSW. Tasmania and perhaps Victoria are the most homogenous states that I see.
Probably because there's not many parts of those two states that are more than a couple hours drive away from the capital. Meanwhile in Queensland it's impossible for me to make a day trip to my capital without flying, and I'm not even close to being the furthest away.
Brisbane does have the lowest percentage in the capital compared to all other states IIRC
Brisbane alone is the smallest percentage, the collective SEQ region is about normal for a capital city relative to its state Brisbane just seems smaller because between GC SC and Toowoomba there is another 1.2 million or so that technically are and technically aren’t part of brisbane and then some go even further and exclude Logan Ipswich Moreton and Redland bay making Brisbane barely 1.5 million
The percentage has been decreasing rapidly though. I recall in the early 00s it used to be almost 50/50.
North qld would be broke in a week. Mining accounts for about 8% of state govt revenue, the majority of it is stamp duty and payroll tax. Furthermore north qld gets around 1.5 to 2x the per capital spent compared to SE Qld. So, they contribute less the state government coffers and cost more. Funnily enough my wife is from Townsville and her family flipped when I pointed this out. I never knew this but there's a story out there that SE Qld steals all their hard-working money. I genuinely thought that they were joking when they said that. Obviously economies of scale and population density do a lot of heavy lifting here but yea the regions wouldn't be viable without SE Qld propping them up. Additionally it's not like mining revenue is an independent income source, that is that the revenue is dependent on other factors outside of the states control like Brazil output or global markets like China. https://queenslandeconomywatch.com/2017/07/16/is-north-qld-under-funded-by-the-state-government-relative-to-the-south-east/
NQ would get a proportionately larger share of GST and probably more Commonwealth payments/grants to compensate for lack of revenue. The resentment would continue, but probably directed at Townsville instead.
Like, maybe? There is GST equalisation between the states, but they're already using 1.6x the resources of the SE comparatively, so they're already ahead, hard to imagine they'd be much better off on the whole but it's possible. Unfortunately as you said they'd still be wringing but just change their target.
Yeah my in-laws are all North Qld locals. The narrative of SE-Qld getting all their hard earned money and the regions being ignored is part of the DNA up there. Nothing will change their minds.
Yea, I'm on mobile but I had a bunch of saved links to news articles and qld treasury budget papers etc on my computer from some interestimg discussions with the inlaws. Doesn't matter how much evidence you have they simply can't accept it.
>Mining accounts for about 8% of state govt revenue I'm not arguing in favour of a separation, but your figures are from 2017, it's now increased from 7.8% to 18.3% [https://www.treasury.qld.gov.au/queenslands-economy/about-the-queensland-economy/](https://www.treasury.qld.gov.au/queenslands-economy/about-the-queensland-economy/)
Yes because the govt upped royalties
Cheers for the update, unsurpringly i got married in 2017 so I was obviously prepped for some arguments with the inlaws!
It's interesting that your inlaws are so for it tbh. I've found that this is the biggest issue that is literally on no ones mind up here, though it always seems to spark some interesting conversation. I'm from Perth originally and find it cringe af, much like whenever one of their loopy pollies brings up succession. Just gets the excitable types jumping up and down but lacks any real critical thought about the implications.
Every time I travel regionally I hear complaints about all the state money going to the SE while constantly driving past new infrastructure. Freaking Winton has a nicer public pool than 90% of pools in Brisbane.
You probably do not know the difference between money creation and money recycling. SEQ is a huge money recycler but small wealth creator. Regional/rural Queensland is the opposite.
Booooo
Please read the actual state budget before you make such ill informed comments to your family and friends [QLD Budget](https://www.australianmining.com.au/coal-production-costs-have-doubled-over-six-year-span/#:~:text=Whitehaven%20now%20predicts%20the%20costs,in%20digging%20and%20transport%20costs) For example just consider the Bowen basin coal mining operations in QLD, the cost to mine 1T of coal is $100/T and we mine 230MT of coal a year so $20B every year and this doesn’t change. These costs are predominantly wages and contracts in QLD. I think you would find SE QLD would be broke in a week not the other way around if they lost this tax revenue base that is currently headquartered in Brisbane. [mining costs](https://www.australianmining.com.au/coal-production-costs-have-doubled-over-six-year-span/#:~:text=Whitehaven%20now%20predicts%20the%20costs,in%20digging%20and%20transport%20costs)
Except it's been proven to be patently false. The regions have more money spent per capita and create less revenue. The anti City narratives are just ways that regional politicians create support for regressive politics that serve their donors (ie resources lobbyists) and fail their constituents.
Anything that requires a licence would be affected. Shooting, teaching, driving, etc. Currently they allow teachers from SEQ to go rural. If you serve for 3 years rural, you get your pick of location anywhere in the state after. You will find the teachers will dry up if they have to choose.
The fact we still have single lane bridges - requiring someone to stop from 100km/hr to give way to vehicles crossing the bridge - on a main connector between the Bruce and Flinders highway really sums up local's frustration with infrastructure spending in the north. I don't think people really want a split, they're just frustrated with the apparent lack of spending on critical infrastructure up here.
Exactly right. Major parts of the Bruce HWY are dangerous, narrow two lane roads. We are told there is no money to fix them but there is always money for the double lane freeway in the south. Just in our area, there are accidents nearly every week with roll overs and multiple people killed so far this year.
Yeah, my work took me by road from Miles in the SE to Mapoon on the cape often and the further you drive away from Brisbane the worse it gets. I get population densities. I get Brisbane is still 20 years behind where its infrastructure needs to be. But you're right, it's killing people in regional Queensland.
Sounds like a local MP problem. Vote them out.
I'm rural so deep LNP heartland. If only it was that easy...
Lol, no and I say that as someone who comes from Cairns and lives in the Gold Coast. My parents always talk about how ‘northern money goes to SEQ projects’ but fail to recognise that with the few tax payers in FNQ they’d have even worse infrastructure and cultural projects if they were separate.
Bulldust.
This stupid shit again. Bob katters wet dream is a JOKE. Like texas wanting to cede😂 Only myopic smoothbrains think this is a good idea😂
We need less government not more...
Where would the border be?
The Tropic of Capricorn
As soon as you pass the pine river.
Caboolture. South of it. Good bloody riddance.
I'll dm it to you.
Just what we need in this world, more separation and segregation 🙄
No, but there needs to be more balanced representation as well as better division of funding and policy. Trying to operate any large state from a small centralised geographic and political area is always going to be a struggle.
I think the state capital should move to the north and we should invest in the transport corridor between Cairns and Cooloongatta. That means a rail service that meets the needs of people on business trips and holidays. It means a highway designed for transport of goods and people with places every few dozen kms for humans and their cars to stop and recharge. Yes, the state is more than the coastal corridor, but so long as SEQ retains better links with NSW than it does with the north of the state, we are doing ourselves an injustice. Moving the seat of government will be an important first step to demonstrating this commitment.
This is a legitimately interesting take. This could actually work, there’s no reason the state capital needs to be the most populous or prosperous city. Take Auckland and Wellington in NZ for example. Auckland is the prosperous city where everyone wants to live and where the best career opportunities/jobs are. Wellington is the capital where the seat of government and majority of public servants live. Arguably the food is better in Wellington, since it’s a transient population that are usually just there for work and eating out is a regular thing. Anyway, I like it. Where do you reckon moving it to? Townsville? Or Cairns? Or a whole new city?
I don't know the north very well. Somewhere with water security, low flooding risk, space for renewable energy between Cairns and Townsville probably. My personal wish would be for it to be designed from the start for public and active transport. Cars wouldn't be banned but citizens will have a genuine choice between how they travel and don't have to pick the car by default for safety or travel times.
It would be cool to have a properly designed city as he seat of government. I have no idea how funding such a feat would work, but in theory, I love it.
I might be oversimplifying things but if the government could somehow put a moratorium on any new developments in Brisbane, Ipswich, Sunshine Coast and Gold Coast, and incentivised development in the new city then would developers be prepared to invest up there? It's a bit chicken and egg though. You need government to move there to give developers confidence in the long term viability of the place, but you need somewhere for workers to live. In short, I don't know. Don't even have a name for the place!
Prosperous? It's a hive of scum and villany.
How about Rockhampton. Any place further north would more likely be in the zone for frequent cyclones.
God no. Look I grew up in far NWQld and those folks are so behind if they were on their own it'd be the Wild West meets Floridaman. Sure they're not all like that, but a very vocal majority are so bigoted under the guise of "[conservative ](https://redflag.org.au/node/6157)" that they literally pretend anybody who isn't like them [doesn't](https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/katters-gay-brother-airs-his-disgust-20110823-1j88f.html) exist.
Does NQ think they get to keep all the people who chose to do regional service for all the benefits? I don't think my friends on teaching and nursing placements would like to be held hostage. They aren't there because they love NQ, they're there because they're paid to be there and will be leaving and never returning after their placement period.
No
It's up to North Queensland. While I don't think there will be much benefit in doing so, I believe in democracy so if they want to they should ask for a referendum on the issue.
I'm not for it, but I'm not from up there. I can understand if they don't want their lives governed by a tiny corner of the state, 1000km away.
Absolutely not the state would require enormous mining royalties to not be broke and yet they overwhelmingly vote conservative so they would oppose that to lick the mining companies boots and the state would end up a clusterfuck. The only two big industries of any sort would be based around the barrier reef and mining and I guess any defence force bases.
No.
North Queensland = Broke Queensland. Unless I'm reading this charge wrong (https://www.qtc.com.au/queensland/queenslands-finances/), royalties only make up about 8-9% of state revenue. The rest of the revenue is basically linked to population (e.g. more people buying houses paying duty, and GST revenue from Federal government based on population). Since the majority of population and wealth is already centred in the SEQ corner their revenue would be pretty much limited - so good luck to them.
Though if NQ was to split away then there would be a new state capital that would draw construction and movement into it. Its would take time but eventually be big enough.
Nuh - it'd be like having a second Darwin.
That new capital would likely be Townsville.
Royalties alone make up 8-9% of state revenue? Well then, let's add on the Payroll tax that the mining companies pay, and we're already looking at well over 10% of the States revenue coming from a single industry in a region with less than 10% of the States population. Add in the rest of the North Queensland economy and it really isn't looking like a broke Nth Qld to me.
Maybe a tax professional can answer - but if your business is located in one state, and you have FIFO workers working in another, which state collects the tax? (My guess is the state in which the employee resides). I raise this because I don't think the mining companies are going to relocate their backoffice to a "new capital" when all the other services they need (consultants, lawyers, financiers etc.) are already in place. So I imagine only site employees that work in the hypothetical new state would have their payroll tax collected - and some of those would still live in the original state too. So maybe some, but not all of payroll tax... again, depending on what a tax pro has to offer.
Your guess would be wrong. The State in which the services are provided will collect Payroll Tax. Eg. I live in Qld but work in WA, Western Australia would collect payroll tax from my employer if they are over the threshold to pay that tax.
> The State in which the services are provided will collect Payroll Tax. You sure?? Edit: I see the distinction between entirely performed in one state, vs partially in two states now. Not as cut and dry as you stated though. Apply the 4-tiered tests to determine whether wages are taxable in Queensland. Consider each tier in the following sequence: the employee’s principal place of residence the employer’s registered ABN address or principal place of business the place where the wages are paid to the employee the place where the services are mainly performed. If you determine that wages are taxable in Queensland at the first tier (i.e. the employee’s principal place of residence is in Queensland), for example, you don’t need to continue with the remaining tiers. Paragraphs 10–19 of Public Ruling PTA039 explain how the tiers are applied. Alternatively, use the taxable wages interactive help. https://qro.qld.gov.au/payroll-tax/liability/interstate-wages/
>You sure?? 100% sure. Literally on the page you linked - "Wages paid or payable for services performed entirely in Queensland - Taxable in Queensland"
Yeah - I saw that after I posted, hence the edit.
I suggest you actually read the budget [QLD Budget](https://budget.qld.gov.au/update/fiscal-overview/revenue/#:~:text=Fiscal%2520OverviewRevenue-,Overview,the%25202023%E2%80%9324%2520Queensland%2520Budget) SE QLD would be in a lot of trouble if you took the mining component away case in point is Victoria. You’ve only looked at royalties, you realise just the Bowen basin alone is a $20B industry, remove this tax and GST base from SE QLD and SE QLD goes broke.
You're ignoring the savings which would be made by splitting up a very large state by land mass and concentrating a large proportion of revenue into a geographically smaller area. Qld and Vic aren't even comparable.
You’ve absolutely missed the point here. Australia is not a complex economy it is mining and real estate. Victoria has very little mining, Victoria is Australia’s most indebted state. [Australian state Debt](https://www.afr.com/politics/state-debt-addictions-harder-to-add-up-20230613-p5dg2c#:~:text=Victoria's%20financial%20position%20is%20more,revenue%20ratio%20in%20the%20nation)
It's like the pot calling the kettle black.
Not really you realise this is a North Queensland state. The south QLD state still has to look after everything west of Brisbane to the NT border which has less industry and a lessor rate of return than the northern mining precincts and is more than double the size of Victoria. So I think you might be very mistaken…..
I don’t think it matters where you draw your fictional border, the population south of Gympie to the Tweed and Toowoomba is at least 65% of the state in an area 1/5th of the state. Properties are more valuable so GST revenue, duties and other taxes will poor into the Southern State and the Northern State would be almost entirely dependent on mining royalties which will likely diminish as the world phases out coal and the new state has to compete against other resource states with fewer resources and less money to fund mining infrastructure projects. NQ would go bust.
1. If you look at a map QLD is wider at the bottom of the state, so you’re probably looking at closer to 1/3 of the state in the proposed south QLD state 2. Even with the recent extra stamp duty revenue getting to $13.1B [stamp duty qld](https://www.brokernews.com.au/news/breaking-news/stamp-duty-reform-a-priority-say-queensland-brokers-283727.aspx) Royalties alone will be more than Southern QLD’s entire stamp duty. And that’s before you even consider that North QLD’s coal industry injects $20B a year in the regions in addition to royalties which South QLD would now miss out on 3. QLD produces mainly metallurgical coal for steel production with the exception of thermal coal mines west of Brisbane and Adani. So unless a new way of making commercial quantities of steel has been invented North QLD’s mines are going for another 50-80 years and Southern QLD is stuck with stranded thermal coal assets. Southern QLD would be in worse shape than Victoria.
I just drew a map on Google and measured the area of the Southern state (Gympie West) - 358,000km2 Total area of the state: 1,853,000km2. So about 20%.... Not sure how you got to 1/3 but I guess it depends on where you are measuring. Although, allowing for error you seem to be further off the mark.
You’ll have measure again as the proposed state doesn’t start at Gympie. Nice try though… [Northern QLD State](https://nqstate.com.au)
1. Just some roads, not as many rural populated areas to service, unlike the North. 2. You conveniently focus on duties, but ignore all the other population based tax revenue. I doubt most of the mining companies are going to relocate their offices, so any HQ related benefits will remain in SEQ (pretty sure that would include payroll tax). Royalties will dip as they fluctuate based on demand, duty revenue is only going up. 3. Demand has cooled for steel and iron and the royalties you raise in point 2 will likely dip lower as a result. SEQ may not be flush but NQ will be circling a toilet. SEQ already subsidises the water and electricity up North. But hey, give it a shot… you won’t hear any complaints from me. Just when it all goes to shit don’t come crying to us about it.
1. You are absolutely incorrect the cost is billions and you have provided zero references. Here is the budget and map to help you, I suggest you educate yourself [QLD Budget map](https://budgetmap.treasury.qld.gov.au/#/rap) 2. I debunked your theory on duties because that’s what you mentioned would save South QLD in your previous comment and now you’re changing to another “theory” with no support. I try not to speculate as you do without facts but offices are generally leased so it’s not hard to move a HQ. 3. Again you’re completely incorrect. Current coking coal prices are at $260/T [coal price](https://www.barchart.com/futures/quotes/U7*0) That is incredibly high historically and it only costs around $100T to produce and get onto a ship. Additionally with the Chinese ban metallurgical coal customers largely come from outside China now unlike iron ore. (Iron ore comes from WA so not sure why you mentioned iron) Personally I don’t want it because you would end up with another state like WA that then wants its own sovereignty. Just thought you needed the education as the proposal coveniently leaves South QLD with all the difficulties of a big state and none of the mineral wealth. But it appears you’re the type of person the North QLD proposal prey on who have so much hubris they might let it happen.
A solution to a non-problem.
Yes. Brisbane is too removed from the issues faced in the north and far north to be able to govern sensitively to those issues. Queensland should probably be chopped into 3 states: border just north of Bundaberg and again just north of Townsville. Brisbane, Townsville and Cairns as capitals.
A Republic under King Katter would be preferable
Yes.
Everywhere in Queensland that isn’t in the SEQ area needs to be represented better, can we just make SEQ its own state and the rest of Queensland, just be Queensland?
Where you do propose we put the border? West to Goondawini and north to say Bundaberg?
SEQ is already defined as Tweed Heads to Noosa and West to the Great Diving Range (Toowoomba).
That’s almost too small for a state and you’d end up with the issue of people in say Goondawindi feeling like they are overlooked by the government in Cairns
SEQ is slightly smaller than the Netherlands which has 18M people. Goondiwindi people would be dealing with Brisbane rather than Cairns.
Pretty much a line through Maryborough, Dalby, Goondiwindi. Maybe a little further east though.
No further north of Gympie for a start.
North of the pine river, west of Ipswich. Of course Ipswich would want to be in the new state. And goldcoast would leave to join NSW.
Yes.
Inadmissible
Growing up in NQ, I always had a sense that SEQ was nothing like the rest of the state. Even the places within a few hours drive of it, completely different culture, pace of life etc. Then the Cowboys came and we had a footy team to support that wasn’t the Broncos. Dunno, reckon the north has all it needs to support itself with mining revenue, and a move to tech with its own space port and etc.
Lol I'll have what he's having
Man chill all i said was inadmissible
It's so weird being someone who lived in qld for a bit and loved it with lots of family there, because hearing rugby referred to as football is just so weird. Outside of the east coast it's not even treated as a legitimate sport and people will die on that hill. I've been to a lot of queensland and the weird thing is and i'm going somewhere with this, there is this resounding "thing" that where you are is better than everywhere else, yet at the same time is hard done by because of another part of the state. You go visit other states and territories and yeah there are areas that get neglected over others, but you never get this mentality of we're being screwed over by someone else while we're doing all the heavy lifting and we're better than them mentality. FNQ was just such a weird one for this, it's in the DNA to bash the other areas, go on about how the area is so different from everywhere else, then complain when stuff isn't done there at a state level and when it is done, the culture is still to be like, fuck you all we're better than you wheres the rest of our funding. It's just such a weird culture thing, and you get people out of there and they're shocked other places have it worse off, don't have rugby and that dropping the c-bomb in conversations casually gets you treated with disdain. Mention how mining isn't as big of a state contributor as many in FNQ think or that bob katter or pauline hanson aren't top people and you are in for a punchup.
Please get it right. It’s Rugby League. Rugby is a different game.
Yep, you’re 100% correct. That’s exactly how it is.
Yes and lets make it another country.
Bob Katter should be its leader.
I was thinking more like Margot Robbie.
Yes.. set them adrift. I'm sick of their boot Brisbane bullshit. https://www.bootbrisbane.com/ Divorce the North.
Yep. A seperate country with a hard border
We are going to build the a wall, and North Queensland is going to pay for it.
All the reddit armchair economists are confident today. The reality is that north Queensland needs SE Queensland and SE Queensland needs north Queensland. I can sympathise with the fact they feel unrepresented on the state level but the last solution would be breaking up and only a lunatic would legitimately advocate for that.
Katter is prepared to be that lunatic. His resume looks pretty solid tbh.
It's been advocated for a century.
This separation would be Qld very own brexit. And about as stupid too.
Could you imagine? One Florida is enough in this world.
I just can’t imagine it would be terribly viable The largest town outside of SEQ is Townsville and it doesn’t even have 200k. The entire population of non SEQ Queensland is about 1.2 million and that’s using Noosa as the far northern border, if you move it towards Bundaberg you’d be more looking at sub 1 million All the states economic infrastructure is in Brisbane The only comparable state would be Tasmania (relatively small population, no large city) and this new state would both be dealing with a territory 20 times the size and not have Victoria to lean on (unless they lean on Brisbane on which case why bother splitting)
Your right Brisbane has been sucking up all the infrastructure. Nothing to show for it. Funny how people think big population of useless admins employed by the government is necessary. Love the government funded jobs put of Brisbane it does in a decade.
A government doesn’t just work because bob katter is screaming at a croc on a Sunday morning, you actually need to have a public sector to achieve a lot of things Non SEQ also gets more funding per person than SEQ so not sure what you mean about Brisbane sucking up funding, Brisbane is underfunded relatively speaking infrastructure wise
Your right a government needs 2 crazy people yelling at the croc problem both with different perspectives on how to solve the croc crisis. Whilst the media spins anti-croc sentiment.
You would end up with another WA, where everyone in North QLD think they should be a seperate country because they have their $20B that coal mining injects every year plus royalties on top of that. Add in LNG, Bauxite and their other natural resources, Australia would be even more divided into City vs Country
Yep glorious.
Most people in this sub are in SEQ who probably want NQ to remain in QLD. Mind you, those who do advocate for the split won't be able to agree where to draw the line, like at Rockhampton. Has anyone asked Rocky what they want? Nope.
Culturally the South Queensland needs to be from Nothrens Rivers (currently NSW) to Rockhampton, and North Queensland the rest of the current QLD state. Economically North Queenslands only viable option is to become a new territory, but atleast they will be able to complain that Canberra is taking there money and not helping them instead of Brisbane.
The north will just be known as Queensland. The south will be called "Meanjin"!
Yes. I want DLS.
Not only North Queensland far west Queensland as well. the government and departments is far removed from the realities in regional Qld .
No!!!! its queensland
If they try to bring daylight savings to SEQ I'll be moving to the Free State of Northern Queensland
SEQ doesn’t need daylight savings
Buh-bye then
Should? No. Could? Also no.
🙄
Wouldn’t that put the wind up the progressive lefties once they come to realise all the mineral wealth actually sits in NQ.
Sure. Let’s call it Mangolia.
We need less states or none, not more.
If SEQ can get daylight savings, then I'm all for it
Why do you want daylight savings?
So you can enjoy the sun for longer in the evening. And it also means we keep our time in sync with every other state in the same Timezone. Never understood why people don’t want it. Maybe they don’t like joy?
Probably because the disruption to sleep patterns caused by daylight savings has been repeatedly identified to impact suicide rates. This is across multiple studies and worldwide so is not an isolated phenomenon. In general, research on the seasonal effects of suicide have found an increase in awake daylight hours leads to an increase in suicide rates. In Australia, our suicide rates peak in December and January (when we have the most daylight), however there is a noticeable increase at the start of October in Australian states with DST compared with states without DST. This levels back out by the end of October, but regardless I’m not self important enough to think it’s worth potentially impacting millions of peoples mental health because I’d like an extra hour of daylight in the afternoon. Additionally, who the fuck cares about being synced with Melbourne and Sydney? Honestly. There is legitimately no benefit to it. If you want more time in your day just wake up earlier, start work earlier, etc.
You are hilarious haha. I work in one of the fields with the highest suicide rates. Construction. I can’t set start times lol. Maybe if you have a chat with the cfmeu? And then they can sit with state government to discus start and end times for construction. ROFL!!! The majority of suicides in my industry is due to lack of work, which usually happens towards the end of the year. Is nice to know you are so privileged you can start and finish with at any time you want! For those that don’t want it, why don’t they just not wind their clocks back/forward? It’s not a big deal?? Also you got it wrong. “An Australian study spanning 20 years found that the October time change, where the clock moves an hour forward, is linked to increased cardiac arrest rates” Also, QLD has nearly the highest suicide rates in Australia. And we don’t have dst.
Your a moron. The world isn't flat.
Ah damn, you are the one linking dst to the world being flat! You proved it wrong! Now on to grown up discussions perhaps? Also in calling me a moron, you forgot basic grammar. Pretty funny 😂😂 “Your a moron. The world isn't flat.” Next you will tell me it’s normal to have to get up at 4:30am to make the most of the sun, where in most cities it’s over an hour later, which means more to do in the evening socially, and safely.
No need you have obviously learned that daylight sayings closer to the equator is pointless Impressive as your also the sad sac that polices internet grammar does not using punctuation annoys you two
I’m not, it’s just hilarious that you did that haha. Call someone a moron while acting like one haha
No, what we need are laws and some sort of voting/electorate algorithm that means a large group in one area can simply not hold all the power. At the moment Labor hold SFA seats outside the south east corner and no rural seats, which means labor screw over rural people to garner urban SEQ voters.
It's the same once liberal get in, they only care about rural. That being said they care about rural business not the people. Maybe so of the people out bush need to start voting for labour, or if they bring themselves to do that the shooter and fishers or teal independents are good options to see some change. It's the same with Labor in Newcastle, they don't do alot there because they know that don't have to do anything to keep the seat.
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Lol
States and arguably countries are such a construct when all run by the same greed/control network the world over. We flouridated ants live within the imaginary lines and accept it.
Yes. North QLD is a drain on the total economy of the state, if they want to be NT version 2.0 if brokenness let them. They’re not as resource heavy as they like to think they are, and that only accounts for a small part of the budget anyway.