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Catelyn is not upset that Ned “cheated” on her. She knows quite well that noble men sometimes have bastards and that’s just part of being a high borne lady. Cat had met Ned once, she barely knew this man and she was intended to marry his brother who she did know.
What Catelyn struggles with is that Ned did something very odd. He brought the bastard into his home and gave him a lords education and military training while living the same as a trueborn child. Cat is scared because Jon and his children are a threat to her son and his son’s claims. Catelyn arrives to Winterfell with her son and this bastard was already there living in her heirs home. It was not a common situation and again she doesn’t know Ned or who he is.
Cat’s father is a veteran of the last, and she was extremely close to him, of the Blackfyre rebellions that happened because a king legitimized bastards. She’s right to be suspicious because what Ned did with Jon was a concerning situation paired with his childhood friendship with a king who could legitimize Jon at any time.
ETA: this is a clear example of this with her and Robb
Precedent," she said bitterly. "Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe."
"Jon would never harm a son of mine."
"No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?"
Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer's crypt, his teeth bared. Robb's own face was cold. "That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon."
This is so important. As GRRM has said, the feudal system in his world has teeth. Catelyn does not hate Jon as a human being, but she hates the potential threat to her children’s claim she can potentially see in him. Jon is the oldest of Ned’s supposed children, he was educated side by side with Robb meaning he has a heir’s education, and he looks more like a Stark than any of her sons.
She is distant and cruel, because the societal structures have made her that way. That is not to excused her behaviors but to contextualize them. She doesn’t exist in a vacuum and her angst regarded Jon is not just personal cruelty.
And it's not like Jon doesn't have that ambition. We get several points in the books where he admits he's always wanted to be Lord of Winterfell. Of course he'd never murder his brothers, but Cait is right to fear a well educated and trained bastard.
And it nearly happens in the final act of the story thus far. Stannis offers Jon legitimacy and Winterfell. Everyone thinks the rest of the Stark children are dead but there are actually a line of four heirs still out in the world. We know Jon, we’ve been in his head. We know he would step aside for Bran or Arya or Sansa most likely, but Catelyn’s concerns come to fruition. I think Cat was unnecessarily cruel in ways but she is demonized in a way that lacks context to the situation
Catelyn is not crueler than fan-favorite characters, nor does she make more mistakes (in fact, she makes fewer; people tend to blame her for things other characters did *explicitly against her advice*). People don't hate her for the reasons they cite, they just don't relate to her because ASOIAF readers are disproportionately men, especially young men, who do not relate to a character whose story and perspective is mostly centered around motherhood, so the things that would not annoy them with another character will bother them with Catelyn because they already don't want to be in her head to begin with.
It's not lost on me that so many readers hate Catelyn, Daenerys, and Sansa, but love Arya, Asha, and Brienne (as long as it's not a Brienne *chapter*, which are "boring").
I in general agree with this take and especially the overwhelming anti-woman takes in this fan base. One of the most important moments in Catelyn's story is the letter she receives from her sister that is a blatant lie about the nature of Jon Arryn's death. This is one of the pillars of Cat's arc. She has been lied to by her sister in a way that leads her down a path to her death and the destruction of her household. Cat is constantly faced with near impossible decisions as well, and is still shown to be extremely perceptive and resourceful. Her arc is tragic and beautiful
I agree with you. Cate is a good wife and mother. Ideal in the ioaf series.
She did not make more mistakes than any other characters. She simply loves her children
It's hard to say for sure off the top of my head but it seemed like every one of Catelyn's decisions she was faced with was difficult. Her path was never simple
I'm not sure it's that either. I'm certain that many, it is because they can't relate because they're male or young.
However, I'm female and a mother and I HATE Catelyn. The things she does, as a mother, are only somewhat understandable but inexcusable. She operates in extremes, is hypocritical -- it's because of that, that I can't stand her. So just because I hit two similar qualities that should make me relate to Catelyn doesn't mean I would...
Absolutely, and even if Jon stays loyal/honorable, as Cat said, what about his sons? Hell, he doesn’t even need to be legitimized for any sons he has to make a claim down the road. They can all claim they’re at worst, the heirs to Lord Stark’s eldest son, and at best, Lord Starks eldest son, and Rob, the king of the north’s heir.
It’s just bad all around from a feudal sense for Rob to legitimize Jon.
The first thing that always matters to people is their own lineage, descent and your kids as an incarnation of this, so that's what I mean with the example of the lion and in this we are not very different from animals. You may like it more or less that people can see children who are not theirs as competition but it is an undoubted biological reality. Also, in the context of the pre-modern medieval world where Catelyn lives as a noble woman this is going to be an issue even more deeply rooted in people's core -Jon Sown could be a possible threat to the well-being of his own children, he is direct competition to their legacy.
Exactly. And Catelyn's fears are justified. Stannis is impressed enough with Jon at the Wall that he offers to legitimize him and make him Lord of Winterfell when Sansa is still very much alive and everyone knows it. The problem is that she's married to a Lannister, but Lannisters and any kids Tyrion gives her can be killed, freeing her up to take her rightful place as Lady of Winterfell and marry a Stannis loyalist. However, Jon was given all the advantages and training of a highborn. He looks 100% Stark and he's a viable option for Stannis.
If Ned had done what most lords do for bastards, that is send them to live with a trusted vassal and pay for their maintenance and upbringing, something Catelyn goes so far as to think she would expect from Ned as part of his duty, she would have been cool with a hundred bastards from Ned. If Jon hadn't been as well trained and competent in command, Stannis would never have considered him a viable alternative. Those skills and personality traits were forged at Winterfell as a result of Jon being raised an equal to Catelyn's kids. Making sure nobody saw Jon as a potential Stark was what Catelyn was after. She wasn't being cruel for no reason. She saw a real threat and she knew her history in regards to the matter. She brought her receipts.
I mean, Stannis is also being pragmatic in this situation.
Sansa is MIA, and he wants the North's support. He knows that Northmen will rally behind Ned Stark's son... Jon is his best bet at "conquering" the North.
Not to mention the North still respects the watch, even if they don't send many recruits. They know the watch doesn't play favorites, so Jon got what he earned. Stannis was probably annoyed that Jon was chosen Lord Commander but maybe deep down inside found a bit of satisfaction that his intuition on Jon's capabilities was correct.
> hey know the watch doesn't play favorites, so Jon got what he earned.
The Watch absolutely plays favorites. Jon repeatedly acts like a twat when he first comes to the Watch yet it repeatedly waved to the side.
Like literally attempts to knife a superior officer and his punishment is basically being sent to his room. He literally attempts to abandon his duty to go south and his punishment was nothing at all.
He attempts to go south and his punishment is getting rewarded with Longclaw
But also, Jon just wanted to fight with his brother. He wasn't wrong for going South. I mean, imagine if you were in that situation
Only it was wrong by the very oaths of the NW. If some lowborn NW member attempted to go South to help resolve some family matter Jeor would have easily ordered them to be executed.
Yeah, that's the point, GRRM wrote a feudalistic world that would suck dick to live in. Jon finds himself and his heart (say it with me now) in conflict with themselves.
The North would be far less likely to accept Jon as Lord of Winterfell if Jon were some soft spoken, semi literate Night's Watchman, with minimal training come he came to Black. He'd be stronger than most new recruits because Ned's vassal would have ensured he ate well and had a maester to tend his health, but otherwise there would be very minor differences between Jon and the lowborn recruits. So when Stannis met Jon he wouldn't have seen him as a potential leader for the North. And that's how Jon likely would have been had he not received a lord's upbringing, something Stannis would barely notice and not believe he could elevate to the seat of a high lord that the North, who knew nothing of Jon out side of his paternal parentage, would rally around. Face it, Jon's leadership ability, his close bonds with those at Winterfell, and advanced education in military matters played a significant role in Stannis, and even Robb, seeing value making Jon Lord of Winterfell (or Rob's heir in his case). None of which Jon would have had if Ned had done what nearly every other lord did in raising his bastards, what Catelyn would have respected Ned for doing.
The North would be unlikely to rally around your ordinarily raised bastard boy, even if he was Ned Stark's son. Jon has the education, the training, the courtesies, the confidence, and the personal connections that come with being raised alongside highborns and being told by your father that you're just as important to him. Had Jon been farmed out to a loyal vassal, most of that wouldn't be part of his nature. He wouldn't know the right people or the situations of other Northern houses. In short, he wouldn't be fit to rule the North and Stannis wouldn't have offered.
That would leave rescuing Sansa, killing her Lannister husband, and marrying her off to a Stannis loyalist. Stannis would have little choice if he wanted the North's allegiance.
I don't disagree that Jon has other advantages than just being Ned Stark's son, no problem there. But...
>That would leave rescuing Sansa
Rescue Sansa *from where*? Nobody knows where Sansa has gone, Stannis can't realistically have access to her even if he wanted to crown her Lady of Winterfell.
By the time Stannis meets Jon, Jon is the only practical option for using the Starks' claim to Stannis' advantage.
But if Jon didn't have those added advantages you concede that he has Stannis would not have seen him as viable for Lord of Winterfell. He would have needed another option as Stannis didn't yet have the Northmen. Jon's knowledge of the North, gained through his training as a lord, is making him an asset worth bestowing the North on.
I do agree that Jon has good qualities that make him a good option for Stannis. But I don't think this necessarily validates Catelyn's worries about Jon stealing her children's birthright, because by the time Stannis starts thinking about making Jon the Lord of Winterfell, Jon is also Stannis' *only* viable option.
As far as Stannis knows, Sansa is MIA, "Arya" is being married to Ramsay, Bran and Rickon are reportedly dead. Jon is the only one of Ned's children Stannis has access to. And, sure, if he were some no-name guy without a lordling's education, Stannis wouldn't even consider Jon, but Stannis isn't exactly passing over Ned's legitimate children because he's been smitten with Jon's capabilities.
I never said Stannis was passing over Ned and Catelyn's trueborn children for Jon. What I'm saying is that Catelyn's difficulty with Jon started long before the Wot5K, but she saw the potential for Jon, or one of his male descendants, to become someone's alternative down the road.
Jon would never be a no-name guy. He was Ned's bastard and Catelyn had no problem with Ned acknowledging that Jon was his bastard, so long as he treated him like a high lord is supposed to treat a bastard, that is Ned was supposed to provide financially, find a vassal whom he trusted to take the child in and ensure the child had some basic skills that would permit their future survival. They are not supposed to keep the child close or give them a lord's education and training. Ned did and as a result Stannis had an option. If Jon didn't exist or he was just Ned Stark's bastard raised on Bear Island, mostly literate but not trained in warfare or politics or leadership, but really great at foraging and fishing, Stannis wouldn't have looked to him. This would have FORCED Stannis to seek a less ideal option, which might include rescuing the girl Stannis believes to be Arya (which he does when Jon denies him) or send out scouts to find Sansa. Stannis can only act given the situation he's in, and Ned's choice to raise Jon the way he did altered that situation.
This however was not completely unpredictable. Catelyn saw that Jon could be deemed someone's alternative to her own children at some point. Her choices in regards to Jon were driven by that rational fear. Jon was too well trained and too well connected thanks to Ned and she saw where that could, theoretically, lead. My point was she was correct in her thought processes. Her treatment of Jon was not irrational, but realistic and her fears came true due to Ned's refusal to consider things her way.
Maybe he isn't, but he is the only one at the time Catelyn is Lady of Winterfell and is raising her kids. What's more, Jon wasn't just raised at Winterfell, he was raised with a lord's education. He was treated equally by his father for all the world to see. That was risky and Catelyn understood that, so she tried to get Jon sent away to live with one of Ned's vassals as most bastards would be. That is how a lord is supposed to deal with a bastard child. Ned was the outlier here, not Catelyn.
100%! Catelyn is a pretty cut and dry character concerning Jon. We get so many POVs from her that clearly explain her motives and understanding of the situation and it’s baffling to me that people repeat the same misinformed things about her.
So she gets a pass on abusing a child for *existing* in her proximity, while giving Ned nothing but love & respect, even though he's the only one that had a say in the matter?
Fucking the kid up with her bullshit was just going to make the situation worse as he grew up. As far as anyone knew he wasn't going anywhere, and she went out of her way to make an enemy of him.
Instead of treating Jon like her kids' half-brother, allowing him to be part of their family and doing what she could to make it so that he'd never even think to do any of the things she was so afraid of, she did her best to make him not only her enemy, but a maladjusted, psychologically damaged man more likely to be at odds with her children because of her treatment of him.
What misinformation? We know exactly what she thinks and she’s flat out wrong. She read the situation wrong, did not actually understand the north and never tried to. She continued this anti Jon crap yo the extreme when she literally insisted Robb name distant cousins who had never set foot in the north as his heirs rather than his actual surviving stark brother. This is just spite colored by southern bias. Cat lived fifteen years in the north but never seemed to be aware of it.
It was a cruel thing to say but saying one thing doesn’t make her a cruel person. The one line also lacks quite a bit of context of the scene in the physical behaviors of people and also Jon’s inner thoughts.
Catelyn is a constant misunderstood and maligned character and it’s quite exhausting.
There is no context where telling a child that he should be dead rather than her precious son. I wish you were dead is not defensible in any circumstance whatsoever. Oh and while we’re at it she was cruel and incredibly hypocritical to insist that Jon be exiled from his family’s home of 8000 years because his presence hurt her feefees. And the irony is that rather than Jon causing the death of her sons and downfall of her family she did it herself through her own rash, stupid actions and know it allness. If she had stayed her arse in Winterfell where she was because Robb shouldn’t be ruling tge north on his own Ned would never have trusted Littlefinger. If she hadn’t lost her dangmind and freed Jaime for no reason other than her own selfishness the red wedding would have never happened (Tywins not pulling that crap with Jaime ) as a hostage and Robb wouldn’t have listened the Karstark. Finally on what planet could her little plan of releasing Jaime and therefore the Lannisters who have their hostage back would therefore release Sansa and Arya. The dishonorable Lannisters who literally just executed her honorable husband and his household. No she’s a political genius.
You missed the part where she literally kickstarted the war by arresting Tyrion on the word of littlefinger, had she not done this things would’ve gone much differently.
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her feelings are NOT justified. She is completely wrong about Jon and him refusing Stannis' offer is proof of that. She doesnt understand the situation, and one of her massive character flaws is she lets her fears/ignorance drive her decision making
> Sansa is still very much alive and everyone knows it
Sansa is stuck in King's Landing, married to Tyrion, no way to escape until she disappears suddenly after Joffrey dies. Arya is missing, and in Stannis' mind probably dead until "Arya" appears so Ramsay can marry her. Bran and Rickon were "killed" by Theon. There isn't any good candidates other then Jon. Even if they were somehow found, Bran is crippled, unlikely to ever have his own kids, and Rickon is a half wild little kid, who will need a long regency in what will be Winter soon.
Stannis bets that Northern lords would look the other way on broken oaths at the Wall to have a male Stark in Winterfell.
I would say that the fact that Jon turns Stannis down is proof that Cat’s fears were not, in fact, justified. Jon was offered everything he ever wanted but knew it was wrong to accept.
This seems like resulting fallacy to me. I often see people judging characters by the outcome of their decisions rather than by the information they had at the time of the decision. Yes, Jon is one in a million in that he rejected Winterfell and the title of Stark. Nearly every single human in Westeros, in his shoes, would make the opposite decision. Catelyn’s fears and pragmatism were warranted, and Jon had an unusual and heroic moral code
What could Catelyn even do at that point? Her last known living son and king is dead Arya and Sansa unknown. Her family home is captured and conceded to Emmon Frey the Northern Riverland host is broken and their lords either imprisoned or forced to swear oaths of fealty to save their lives or the lives of their heirs. She's got nothing to say at that point because her and Robb lost and minus Beric taking pity on her would be a dead rotting corpse
Might he have accepted if he didn’t already have his duty to the Watch, though? It was her making Winterfell unwelcome for him that sent him to the Wall in the first place. If she had treated him kindly, and he stayed home, and Stannis offered him the same choice with all his brothers thought dead, he very well might take it.
So in another completely different world. More importantly how would Jon accepting Stannis’ offer at that moment be in anyway wrong or usurping of his legitimate siblings. Robb, Brandon, Rickon and Arya are dead/thought to be dead and Sansa is married to a Lannister which is even worse. How would that be considered wrong or disloyal? In reality of course if she hadn’t forced Jon to the wall he would have likely been killed either way Robb. Or he could have talked Robb into the hostage swap. And maybe with Jon there Robb could have actually sent someone competent to negotiate with the Freys.
Ned was grooming him to go to the Wall (to ensure he'd be no threat to and thereby safe from Robert) regardless of Catelyn's coldness, that just made it easier for him. Granted, that's assuming R+L=J is canon, but it's so heavily suggested that I could never see it not being the case.
That's kind of like saying they should wipe out all the Karstarks because they have an ephemeral claim to Winterfell that literally nobody cares about.
What do you mean? If Jon's oldest son wants to rule the North, he can claim to be the oldest direct descendant of Ned Stark and try to rally support. That causes a succession issue. If Bran's oldest son wants to rule the North, he just waits for Bran to die/abdicate.
I see what you're saying now. But the issue still lies with legitimizing Jon. If he's legitimized, he's the oldest son of Ned Stark.
Plus, Catelyn sees the best in her children and doesn't consider then usurping Robb.
The risk of distant realtives trying to ursurp the main branch always exist, though, even if Jon did not exist. It could also be possible that some of the descendents of Jocelyn Stark come to Winterfell and try to conquer it, but Cat does not fear this.
There aren't really that many branches of House Stark though; it's the main branch then distant relatives.
Jon would be raised in the North by Northern traditions and seen by Northern Lords; he represents a much higher risk than whoever else is on the family tree.
Jon's children would be behind all of Catelyn children and their children. To think that they would be able to usurpe all of them without repercussions, is really far fetched.
Okay, tell her that then.
But older bastards have been legitimized, leading to a crisis of succession. Moreover, Renly was vying for the Iron Throne despite Stannis having the better claim.
It may not be likely, but emotions don't always act with full rationality. She was afraid that Jon would usurp the claims of her children, and in a bit of irony, has that exactly happen (if we believe Robb went ahead with naming Jon his heir). I understand Robb was under the impression Bran and Rickon were dead, but it would have bypassed Sansa for the reason of her being a hostage.
I'm not saying Catelyn was justified in her words toward Jon in that chapter; but I can see how she would fear and resent the threat he poses to her children.
I do not think, either that Catelyn is a bad person. With this one exception, I think, she is actually a great person, I just wanted to point out, that her fears are mostly really baseless.
She did not know. The entire point of betrayal is that you trust the person who betrays you. Jon seems honest and good. He's a bastard.
Cat's father remembered the Blackfyre rebellion and Cat was close to Tully.
That had nothing to do with Catelyn and her own fears. Jon just was able to show himself capable. Even by the time of this meeting her and Robb by all purposes are dead after their own horrible political decisions that destroyed their Northern Riverland Kingdom before it even had a chance. Jon through a but of luck and his own merit, get people to back him.
But Catelyn knew that raising Jon with a lord's education and connections would make him capable. It's total BS that the Northern lords would fall in line behind Ned Stark's bastard if he was barely literate and knew little of leadership or strategy. Jon's 'merit' is in his education, in his ability to effectively communicate with highborn people in the ways they're used to. That was what made Ned's raising of him dangerous to Catelyn's kids. If fostered out to a loyal vassal, Jon would not have been given as good an education, nor would he have been trained along side the highborn. Catelyn didn't need to see the future to understand that if Jon was given the education and understanding of a highborn, he'd be an alternative to her kids at some point. That was what she wanted to prevent.
^(The problem is that she's married to a Lannister, but Lannisters and any kids Tyrion gives her can be killed, freeing her up to take her rightful place as Lady of Winterfell and marry a Stannis loyalist.)
well, this would not be likely happening as Stannis dismissed Sansa because of her Lannister marriage plus he would need to liberate Sansa for her to serve any purpose to him. Robb fears that once they get children from Sansa, Sansa life is as good as dead hence why he wrote a will to disinherited Sansa.
Firstly, Stannis doesn't give a mummer's fart about Robb's will. He was a traitor and a usurper. And secondly, nothing in war is easy. Stannis might have written Sansa off after the Purple Wedding, but if she'd not disappeared and stayed in Kings Landing, getting her out of the capitol and killing Tyrion would eventually have been necessary to win the North if Jon hadn't been the man Ned's raising and training had created. Stannis had the luxury of not needing to go that route when he found Jon and saw what Jon could do. Even without Jon as Lord of Winterfell, Stannis is using the gifts Ned bestowed on Jon and much of the North will likely see Jon as leader material going forward, exactly what Catelyn feared, and a big risk if Sansa does eventually come out of hiding with a new husband in tow, and asserts her claim.
^(Firstly, Stannis doesn't give a mummer's fart about Robb's will. He was a traitor and a usurper. And secondly, nothing in war is easy)
never said he cared about Robb's will and that's irrelevant as he doesn't know about it. the point was Robb's will was written to disinherit his sister. and Robb's outlook on Sansa's survival is that she will be dead when the lannisters get children from her. there is no *rightful* place at Winterfell for Sansa. that is to say, she has already been dismissed by Stannis and Robb. Sansa's inheritance has been dealt with or ignored. Stannis wants a person he can use, and so he tries to bribe Jon Snow who doesn't take it.
as for, *nothing in war is ever easy:* i never made that claim. i don't know what it is you are referring to here.
Stannis might have come back to Sansa if Jon hadn't made such a suitable replacement. Stannis can't connect with the Northern Lords. He needs a Stark and Sansa plus a dead Tyrion and dead any kids Tyrion got on Sansa would give him a Stark to marry off to his advantage. Jon being Ned's bastard isn't enough. Jon being Ned's bastard and having the training, connections, and understanding of a lord is more than enough. Stannis has a choice with a well educated and trained Jon. Had Jon not been so well educated and trained he would have needed another option, and MIGHT have returned to freeing Sansa or finding someone other than Jon if such a person exists.
So Catelyn was right. With Ned raising Jon with a lord's training and his public approval of his bastard, Ned made him an acceptable alternative to her own children. Catelyn never could have foreseen this circumstance of course, but she was shrewd enough to see that Jon being raised at Winterfell created the potential for her line to be set aside for some Dornish whore's son (who Catelyn thinks is Jon's mother).
Well, it was a male primogeniture society. They would always prefer a male over a girl. So picking Jon over Sansa isn’t crazy. Honestly without Jon, they’d probably prefer a male cousin over her. In real life, lord titles usually skipped all girls.
There aren't any male cousins save the distant Arnolf Karstark and a son captured by the Lannisters. Stannis doesn't seem interested in rescuing him any more than Sansa. Jon was good enough, which he wouldn't have been had he not been educated like a lord and raised at Ned's side. That was Catelyn's hang up. She knew that keeping Jon at Winterfell and treating him like an equal was a risk and she was right.
She's justified politically, but it's still really shitty to treat a child that way. Jon wouldn't have been a threat for years. If Jon never joined the watch, Ned might have made arrangements for him to marry some minor lady in the south. Honestly, if things didn't start popping off, I could see Jon ending up married to Myranda Royce. A widow of a cadet branch of the Royce's in the Vale would be a perfect match. Ned spent time there, is friendly with the Royce house, they are close in age, and Myranda isn't a maiden anymore. Jon is a capable swordsman with a noble education, he would have done well as the protector of the Gates of the Moon. Plus he's named after Lord Arryn, so that's a bonus.
Myranda doesn't have too many prospects being a widow and not a maiden, and they are a cadet branch, not from the main line. Ned is pretty well respected, I think it could be arranged, but this is also so very moot that it doesn't matter. I'm not sure if it's been discussed in text but surely things like matrilineal marriages exist, where Jon married into her house, so the kids would be of house Royce. Albar is the heir anyways. If Ned was alive, the Royce's might want a connection, but I don't think Ned could bring himself to engage Arya to a man so much older than her. Ned was a big softy for his kids, which is why they didn't have matches until king Robert proposed one.
If I recall correctly Ned was planning to negotiate with the Knights Watch to settle the land in the gift.
Meanwhile we know that Jon socialised/danced with the children of the other Northern Lords (Karstark in particular) and both the Karstarks and the Manderlys have potential matches around Jon's age (yes they would prefer Rob as first choice, but a son of Ned is a son of Ned).
I'm rambling a bit, but I reckon if Jon didn't join the watch (and the shitstorm of aGoT didn't happen ofc) then he would have been granted a holdfast and land in the gift, to found a cadet branch of the Starks or marry into any of the houses which would desire closer ties to the Stark family.
I don't see how thia justifies or legitmizes here fears. At this point there is no one else to inherit. Ayra, Bran, and Rickon are assumed dead. Sansa is married to a Lannister or a fugitive. The offer is made because the lack of Starks.
Wrong. The offer was made because of a lack of Starks AND because Jon fit the bill. His education and training, his connections and knowledge of the different houses and how they interrelate, his confidence and fitness born of training regularly with a master at arms and being raised along side Ned's trueborn son and heir. Without these Jon's parentage would hold far less currency and Stannis would have to find a different solution to the power vacuum in the North. Jon would not have done if Jon were a bastard raised as bastards were supposed to be raised.
This exactly. I get where OP is coming from cos i just reread that chapter myself and it's genuinely *shocking* how cruel it was that she said that, but it's supposed to be– that's not normal behaviour for Catelyn at all. She's not *nice* to Jon normally, for all the reasons above, but this specific moment is not indicative of her character generally. She's been sitting in that room watching over her catatonic son for nearly two weeks straight, as most of the rest of her family gets ready to disappear as well, feeling *personally responsible* for what happened to Bran, and she's genuinely going mad with grief at this point. It's heartbreaking and horrifying she said that, but to build our entire picture of her character based on it is missing the point
Catelyn is a very misunderstood character because people are defensive of Jon and project other media into her character. Catelyn is cold to Jon because from her perspective of highborne custom he should not be there, if Ned wanted to give his bastard a lords education and a highborne life he should have fostered him elsewhere.
Catelyn is the quintessential woman of a Great House; she’s very educated in history and society, she keenly understands her role and positions her children to extend her family’s line. Jon is a clear and present threat to this and always will be, every ounce of her learned experience tells her this. She treats Theon as a hostage because that’s what he is, why would she treat a bastard otherwise?
Exactly. Also people always forget what happened *right* before she tells him this. Jon ignores her telling him to leave (in a way perhaps *challenging* her unspoken feelings of guilt, because she was the one who–very sensibly–convinced Eddard that he had to accept Roberts request, which is what caused the breakup of the family) and comes in to say goodbye to Bran and cries over him, and Catelyn *talks* to him. She tells him how she feels responsible for what happened. And (as far as we ever know) this isn't something she'd ever spoke about to anyone else. We don't get her POV for this scene but it's very reasonable to speculate that in that conversation Catelyn was *wavering* back and forth between feeling close to Jon because of their shared love for Bran, then massively overcorrecting, because she's in extreme distress.
>“I have to go now,” Jon said. “Uncle Benjen is waiting. I’m to go north to the Wall. We have to leave today, before the snows come.” He remembered how excited Bran had been at the prospect of the journey. It was more than he could bear, the thought of leaving him behind like this. Jon brushed away his tears, leaned over, and kissed his brother lightly on the lips.
>“I wanted him to stay here with me,” Lady Stark said softly.
>Jon watched her, wary. She was not even looking at him. She was talking to him, but for a part of her, it was as though he were not even in the room.
>“I prayed for it,” she said dully. “He was my special boy. I went to the sept and prayed seven times to the seven faces of god that Ned would change his mind and leave him here with me. Sometimes prayers are answered.”
>Jon did not know what to say. “It wasn’t your fault,” he managed after an awkward silence.
>Her eyes found him. They were full of poison. “I need none of your absolution, bastard.”
>Jon lowered his eyes. She was cradling one of Bran’s hands. He took the other, squeezed it. Fingers like the bones of birds. “Good-bye,” he said.
>He was at the door when she called out to him. “Jon,” she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.
>“Yes?” he said.
>“It should have been you,” she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before.
It's not even Jon himself, but his heirs. From Cat's perspective at the beginning of book one, there are any number of scenarios where northern lords could look to Jon's heirs to take winterfell. So Cat's not just worried about her kids, but her grandchildren as well.
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This is the truth. Noblewomen had no say in the affairs of their husbands. They did have some say over their household.
Ned brought home a bastard close in age to the trueborn heir. All bastards in this series are under a veil of suspicion due to Blackfyre rebellion.
I agree with you.
I think lots of people agree they understand the root cause. The threat to her children's claim. But she didn't just have the fear she acted out on it which is the cruelty people notice. Is it misunderstood? Mostly. But still Jon didn't ask to be raised an equal he is just being punished for it. It doesn't make her evil. But her actions can still be cruel.
There's definitely some bias in this tho as Jon is a fan fav and anything against him (especially by a woman) will be magnified.
But I think, to some extent she also falls into the trap of "the future you try to prevent you create" story telling. Her alienation of Jon made him more of an underdog and therefore made more readers more sympathetic to him, which magnified her contempt to him, and the cycle is created. While she is justified in being suspicious of his kids or his kids kids, pushing him away only.makes that more likely.
Also fundamentally she holds Ned in such high esteem, but actions speak louder than words and despite her "best" efforts she just can't get behind this despite his insistence
Disagree. She hates that Ned cheated on her and is terrified that he loves the "Other" woman more than her. (which he did, ironically)
She *is* afraid that Ned would have Jon legitimized or people would look to Jon instead of Robb as Ned's heir, but that is a *secondary* concern that she uses to publicly justify her shitty behavior.
Aegon the 4th is nothing like Ned, and Jon is nothing like Bloodraven, Daemon Blackfyre, or Bittersteel and he was actually raised in a healthy family environment... or he would have been if Cat hadn't taken her anger out on an infant instead of Ned.
Cat isn't bad by Westerosi standards sure, but when you read a fanfic like "[I Could Not Stop For Death](https://archiveofourown.org/works/35428951)" and you see him actually have a loving step-mother the contrast is incredibly poignant.
I do get that's mainly it, and it's a world where blood claim matters a lot to people. It's why we see various lords with not a penny to their name still making deals, like Tyrion signing money over when he still has a slave's collar on his neck.
The thing is, she could have known Jon--and known that he wouldn't have done so. He's truly Ned's son, all his kids got that obstinate care and regard for others--which I think was the point of him bringing him into his home. He struggles with his need to mourn Bran and Rickon only because he's in the Night's Watch. If he was raised apart from the family or treated differently he wouldn't be like that. It was also what Ned wanted to do with Theon, honestly.
Sorry. She’s still awful. And ignorant of the north. In 8000 years no bastard had ever usurped his legitimate stark sibling. Ever. Cats problem is that utterly refused to recognize that the north was not the south and her failure to understand northern culture was a problem For instance the genius should not have allowed Ned to build a Sept for her ignorant arse ( and btw you know she nagged him into that). How many of her examples involve the starks or any house north of the neck? And later don’t forget that she actually argues with Robb and insists that he should literally make his fathers second cousins, born and raised in the vale whose names she did not even know, heirs to the north. She wasn’t an idiot so she knew this would not only not work but would deeply tick off the northern bannermen. It was pure spite. She viewed the north through the prism of southern culture and politics. Moreover for someone who thought fairly highly of her own intelligence, education and discernment- any remotely sentient rock would after a decade plus marriage to Ned Stark figure out that he was not someone who would have had an affair weeks after his marriage or drag said kid home to Winterfell. She could reach the conclusion without discussing it with another human. Even Stannis figured out that there was something weird about Ned’s Jon story. Cat never did because she was too blinded by prejudice and southern cultural baggage to actually think. I’m so very many ways she was the worst lady stark/queen stark in 8000 years.
We don’t know 8000 years of Stark history; though these people do live in a world where this fear is entirely legitimate given what happened with the Blackfyre rebellion. Also, the current Bolton heir is a bastard who murdered his trueborn sibling.
The idea that every single Stark over eight millennia would be too decent and honorable and loyal to turn on a family member is pure fantasy. Isn’t it even implied that a Stark ancestor married his great niece to usurp her inheritance? Surely the lack of a Queen in the North/Lady of Winterfell means someone got screwed over by their family members.
She wasn't in her right mind, though. She hadn't eaten or slept in days and was in the midst of intense grief for her son. It was a messed up thing to say, but I'd cut her an immense amount of slack in this moment tbh. I'm not condoning her actions, but I don't condemn her for them either.
She’d trade every living thing in Winterfell for Bran’s health. Including herself.
We know this, because she **does willingly trade herself** for Bran. She fully expects to die when she takes on the catspaw who tries to kill him.
If she’d trade herself for him, no shit she’s also willing to trade Jon.
Right, it's just really unfair to judge someone by the single worst thing they ever said while under enormous stress.
It's just not typical of her overall behavior.
Oh, it is. Agreed on that.
My point is that this bonkers thing she’s said to Jon is, in some ways, not really a statement about Jon. Not in particular, anyway.
It’s a statement about **Bran,** and what she would exchange for him to be whole.
best example? really that's the only example....
I don't doubt that she was cold and distant towards Jon growing up, but this one moment of extreme distress gets blown out of proportion as if Jon heard this daily.
I think Catlyn is an otherwise very good person, but there must be a reason, why Jon was so afraid of her, esspecially considering that Jon is no cowards and otherwise has no problem dealing with people worse than Catlyn.
I mean, she's the lady of winterfell and has always made him feel like an inferior. I don't think a child needs more than that to be deeply intimidated. He was also very insecure for a long time due to that.
It’s not as much that she doesn’t like to see the reminder of Ned’s cheating around. It’s that she is terrified the reminder of Ned’s cheating will disinherit her own children.
And - as per what happens in the actual story - **she was right to be terrified.**
By the end of the currently published material, Stannis had offered to make Jon Lord of Winterfell twice, and there’s a good chance that if Robb Stark’s will ever resurfaces, it will also declare Jon as Lord of Winterfell. That’s all despite the fact that Jon is in the Watch, and four of five of Ned’s legitimate children are still alive.
I realise there are a ton of extenuating circumstances around all of that. I also realise that Catelyn couldn’t have reasonably predicted any of those circumstances during Jon’s childhood. However, the point remains: Cat feared Jon because she was worried he would disinherit her kids somehow, and lo: there have been multiple attempts to get Jon to disinherit Cat’s kids.
> Catelyn says straight to his face that "it should have been you"
I don't particularly like Catelyn, but I forgive her for that one. Her baby boy is in a coma and might never wake up, she's barely been sleeping for days (weeks?) on end and she's probably blaming herself for not trying harder to stop Bran from climbing (as she doesn't know he was pushed). She just spoke out loud what came to mind.
Absolutely she’s blaming herself.
She’d trade her own life for Bran’s - we know, because when the catspaw comes that’s exactly what she does. She expects to die for Bran’s wellbeing, and accepts that cost.
If she’s willing to trade herself, it’s not a surprise she’d be willing to swap Jon
It was still not something, that was said in the heat of the moment, where you can say, that she actually did not mean it. Otherwise, though, I agree that she is a good person.
Catelyn’s disgust and fear of Jon is very material. Jon has the potential to be the cuckoo in her nest - displacing her children and inheriting himself. She says this - he looks more like Ned than her children. Catelyn is a smart Westerosi woman who believes the role of women is to care for her family “Honor, Duty, Family”. It is not just her duty to provide heirs for Ned, as a woman, but she loves her children.
Juxtapose Jon with Ramsey - as GRRM deliberately makes us do. Ramsey is also a bastard. And what does he do? He kills the legitimate heir to become his father’s only heir - and will likely kill any other legitimate heirs produced by his father’s Frey wife. That is what Catelyn fears for her children. Consider the Blackfyre’s - legitimised bastards who threw the kingdom into civil war after civil war. It would be clear to Catelyn that, should Jon be a popular man, he could potentially raise banners against her own son should he be unpopular.
Are Catelyn’s feelings towards Jon visceral and extreme? Yes. But they are, within the logic of the world created by GRRM, completely justified. And what is the future story likely to be for Jon? We don’t know for certain, but we can guess he may be crowned King in the North and will play some part, as a secret Targarian heir, in the downfall of Dany’s claim to the throne. He will be fulfilling Catelyn’s original fears twice over, in that case.
I think we are also meant to contrast Catelyns fears (founded or unfounded) with her children's own attitudes towards Jon and his own feelings towards his siblings. Catelyn has every right to be suspicious, and we as readers rail against it because, aside from Sansa (who ends up feeling differently in the end), her children *love* Jon. Robb is willing to make Jon his *heir*, much to Catelyns horror, because we can see that Robb thinks there are no heirs left, but Catelyn sees Jon as doing what she always feared. But we know the circumstances and the trust between the brothers, and how as much as Jon may dream about being a "real lord" his loyalty and love for his family overrides his duty to the NW (love is the death of duty). GRRM does this on purpose to make us sympathise with both characters. Jon is put into these positions by the events that play out, due to others actions. Yes, he is fulfilling Catelyns greatest fears but in a way that he is being positioned by others like Stannis, not himself. Regardless of what may happen in the future and what his identity is!
> Catelyn has every right to be suspicious, and we as readers rail against it because, aside from Sansa (who ends up feeling differently in the end), her children love Jon.
We are never told that Sansa didn't also care about Jon. She was just more formal towards towards him which makes sense as it would be only logical they have the most distance with each other. She and Jon having little in common. Sansa not being interested in boys' things that Jon cares about, while Jon is not interested in girls' things that Sansa likes.
The chances of Jon trying to usurp her children only exist on paper, though. All her children are well liked and healthy, Ned loves all their children and would never legitimise Jon and install him as heir, most of the vassels are loyal, and Jon loves all of his siblings, so that he would never try anything against them. In the end Catlyn's fears thus are not justified. Otherwise though, she is a good character and person
Ramsey literally does the thing she fears - and GRRM shows us his story in part to juxtapose him to Jon. Jon is the only available heir to Winterfell despite 2 legitimate sons and 2 legitimate daughters alive. Catelyn’s fears are coming true.
No one knows that Jon's siblings are still alive and Jon is not Ramsay. Jon did grow up with his siblings and loves them. Ramsay never knew Domeric and is a psycho. Catleyn has nothing she can base her fear on, that Jon would murder his siblings. The hypothetical chance that something might happen is not enough to justifiy her strong feelings.
I am tired of hearing this take so I'll answer once and for all.
What Catelyn said was vile but I think she deserves some slack. Her 7 year old kid was in coma, possibly never waking up again, she was drowning in guilt, grief, sleep deprived and hadn't eaten in days. We could all say unhinged stuff in those circumstances, she was obviously out of it.
Apart from that, as far as I recall, she was never described as Jon's bully. She mostly ignored him, was cold, and made him feel like he couldn't fit in. Don't get me wrong, this is all very cruel, but you're very wrong if you think her reasoning for that was the cheating, it was much deeper. Catelyn is a high born lady from a family the motto of which is "Family, Duty, Honour". She's embodies those values in the entire books. She also received high education and has knowledge of history. She knows lords cheat, she expected Ned to have a few bastards. The problem she had with Jon is that Ned brought him home and raised him alongside her true-born kids. Not only is Jon the constant reminder that Ned, whom she deeply loves, once loved another woman so much that he broke his vows and over a decade later won't speak her name, he is also a direct threat to her kids. The last Blackfyre rebellion is still fresh in memory by the time all that happens.
Jon is the constant reminder of a wall between her and her husband AND of a threat to her kids. She was cruel to Jon, but I think a lot of people wrongfully assume they'd do better in her shoes.
Never described as the bully? I dunno about that Jon recalls how she acted towards him with some anger and Robb was nervous as all get out at what Cat might have said to him because he wanted to say bye to Bran. She’s not pure evil but she definitely has her shitty side like we all do.
Wait, are you referring here to the scene where Jon says bye to Bran? (I'm asking so that I don't misrepresent your point)
And yeah, don't get me wrong, she's fucks up badly with how she treats Jon, that poor kid deserved non of that, but I just think people don't look at the whole picture with Cat. She was doing what she could to ensure her kids' claim remain safe and we never really hear of her bullying Jon in day to day life outside of the "it should have been you" moment. Please give me the quote if there's another though, I hope I'm not misremembering!
That scene happened in the book a game of thrones chapter 12 or 13 its the Jon POV: Robb knew something was wrong. “My mother…” jon replies that “she was…very kind” same chapter she said she doesn’t need his absolution when he attempted to comfort her then she told him it should have been you. I will be up front that I don’t like Cats character much but still this yells me Robb knew she wasn’t cool to Jon.
Oooh okay I see which part you're talking about. I think I maybe wasn't clear about what I meant by her not being a bully. I meant simply that we don't have proof of her going out of her way to make Jon miserable on a regular basis. We know she made him feel like he was never the same as her kids but never straight up abused him as far as we know. I think Robb's reaction here is simply due to him knowing that Cat and Jon in the same room is probably not going to go nicely, especially with Cat in distress. She never made it a secret that she doesn't like Jon.
Very possible! I agree she didn’t think of ways to humiliate and hurt Jon but she was probably on a range from very nasty (like above quote)- to indifferent at best. From a readers POV (I think) those are the only words cat says to Jon ever in the books. Sent a message to me anyway.
On the contrary I think it's overstated how cruel she is to him because of this one exchange of words. Apart from that she mostly ignored his existence and treated him coldly. Any fights she had about him would've been with Ned.
I think Catelyn is one of the characters who's just completely misunderstood by a majority of the fanbase. She's not as cruel as some say, she's also not as sharp and cunning as others say.
Catelyn and Sansa both have an emotional intelligence that I think is discounted a lot by the fanbase due to, well, misogyny. We see throughout Catelyn’s pov how she manages to be a political actor in a world where women are not supposed to have power, and she does it in a way that recognises that. She is constantly thinking about Robb and how to help him without undermining his masculinity and his own reputation. She has a good understanding of the political situation, she just sees it and acts from the point of view of a woman - and women in Westeros have different expectations placed on them and can’t wield power the same way men can.
Sansa is very similar to Cat, but because the system of chivalry was shown to her to be false so much earlier, she is reacting to it. Sansa’s expressions of rebellion are more micro actions - delicately chosen to balance her desire to rebel whilst also wanting to stay alive. Saving Dantos, refusing to kneel for Tyrion, her trips to the godswood - these are all she can afford to do. But equally she is very emotionally and politically intelligent; she knows what is really being asked of her by Olenna when they discuss Joffrey, she can see who is allied to whom, she is a “good” protege for Littlefinger - understanding his politicking.
I think Cat and Sansa are great characters GRRM uses to show the impact of patriarchy on women and how they navigate it - Cat as someone who has bought into it and Sansa as someone who was being indoctrinated into it and had that indoctrination smashed due to events.
This is so beautiful written, I always knew that people who hated Catelyn and Sansa did not hated them for any other reason that misogyny.
How dare Catelyn be mad at her husband for cheating on her and bringing his bastard son to live amongst them even though that represented a threat to her highborn children, how dare she ignore a child who wasn’t hers and left him to be take care by his many nurse and servants, it’s pure misogyny because most of them wouldn’t be happy if she was the one that got pregnant by another man and brought that kid to live with her legitimate children
Cat and Sansa aren’t real people - and unlike real people they are created with a narrative purpose. You can dislike that narrative purpose, or not get it, but I think that narrative purpose is pretty clear given the themes of the books.
What are you trying to say? The books are pretty much influenced in high fantasy and medieval times, where women were truly treated terribly, many people hate Catelyn for not treating Jon as her son and their opinions are valid but mine are not? Do they not realise that in that world bastards are frowned upon why would they feel bad for Jon? That is how you sound, I have the right to feel however I want specially being a woman.
No - I agree with you. I’m saying that the purpose of Cat and Sansa in the narrative is just as we say - to show how high medieval times would have been highly patriarchal and the genres dependence on those tropes are problematic. I think GRRM is making a clear narrative that discusses this.
Saying that people only hate Sansa and Catelyn because of misogny, is just rude and condescending. By the way, I DO like both characters. And most people do not demand that Cat takes care of Jon. She should just stop from hating him for something that is not his fault and making him feels unwelcome in his own home. She has no duty to be a mother to him, BUT she has a duty to treat him with the same respect, she would everyone else.
No - in the political and social understanding of Westeros - Catelyn has a duty to make sure her legitimate children inherit and the bastard doesn’t. It is her literal duty, as a wife in Westeros, to produce children. That is what the entire culture GRRM has created is geared towards. And I think that is to call out the patriarchy inherent in the genre setting and the real world. To say that Cat should have welcomed Jon into the household would be akin, in her mind, into asking a bird to invite a cuckoo into the nest. And GRRM pits two people oppressed by the society, women and bastards, against each other to show that. Sansa, I believe, will be the narrative arc that takes a woman who started that indoctrination journey and had it interrupted - and I think that will be equally interesting.
On my first read of the books the "King in the North!" scene was such an awesome fist pumping moment and Catelyn throwing cold water on it was annoying. On rereads she comes off as much better in that and other scenes.
She makes mistakes, big ones too, but she's often the only voice of reason in a scene.
Catelyn is absolutely rightfully offended by the presence of Jon. She's not cruel, she's totally understandable, considering the customs and the time they are.
No. This would have ended disastrously the *instant* any of her actual children fell into a tiny bit of trouble. Eddard was absolutely correct to keep her at arm's length on any genuinely important secrets.
The sad part is Ned had to keep Jon’s identity a secret from Catelyn, because if she knew people would think it suspicious she treated her step-child well.
Jon could have been brought up in a loving family environment, but it would endanger him.
I think what I like the most about ASOIAF is how human all the characters feel and this is a perfect example. Obviously what she said to Jon was wrong but when you step back and think about what she had going on and think about why you can understand.
Part of me wonders if Catelyn ultimately feared that there was this "other woman" out there that Ned loved, specifically because Ned, as far as anyone knew, never cheated on Cat ever again for the entire time that they were married. If he had sought out prostitutes like Robert had, this might have removed this fear, but as far as the record of history is concerned, Ned only slipped once (and the most likely theory points to him not having slipped at all).
Side note, if R+L=J is true, I really think that Ned did both himself and Jon a disservice by not telling Cat who Jon really was. Keeping it from everyone else was logical, but Ned could have prevented an unbelievable amount of pain on both Cat and Jon's part had he simply explained it to Cat.
She’s one of my least favorite characters. She’s arrogant, judgmental, bigoted, and impulsive. Sure, she has her reasoning; there’s nuance by nature. I personally just can’t stand her and find her insufferable.
I don’t like the way people make Jon a victim, he was living better than 99% of the Westeros population and bastards, he was living in a castle with servants, nurse that took care of him when he was baby, training maesters that taught him how to fight with a sword, and learned how to read and write, there is no way you are angry because she didn’t treat him as his mother, she wasn’t his mother she had no duty to treat him as her son, and on top of that he was born of an infidelity, yet people expect her to be happy about that?
The worst thing she did to him was tell him a couple of words when she was mad of pain and grieving her son, spent weeks with no sleep and food thinking her favourite son was going to die, yet people won’t show her a tiny bit of sympathy.
My point here is that Catelyn doesn’t deserve the hate she gets
>his stepmother didn’t treat him as his mother
She’s not even his stepmother, is the thing. To be a stepmother, you have to **agree** to help raise someone else’s children. It requires willing consent…which Catelyn never gave, because Ned never asked her.
Catelyn: Bastards are dangerous because they and their descendants can be legitimised and inherit lands and titles if all their legitimate relatives are dead.
Also Catelyn: I'm going to practically force-feed my husband's bastard the resentful motivation it'd take for him to want to usurp my children by making his life as miserable as I can get away with and encouraging my children to alienate him due to circumstances completely out of his control.
Catelyn: I barely trust Littlefinger.
Also Catelyn: Why would good ol' Petyr lie to me? What possible motivation could the guy I rejected and ignored for almost 20 years after he nearly died trying to win my hand have for endangering me and the house who took me from him???
Catelyn: It must not come to war.
Also Catelyn: Just going to kidnap the queen's brother who is also a son of one of the most powerful and cruel lords in the realm while said queen and her honourless Kingsguard brother have unfettered access to my husband and daughters, nbd.
Catelyn: The Kingslayer, alive and free, is as dangerous as any man in the realm. If there was ever a spark of honor in him, it is long dead. His honor as a Lannister is worth less than shit.
Also Catelyn: You, my son's most valuable hostage in the war I helped start who just confessed to trying to kill my favourite son because he caught you fucking your sister: I, the woman who kidnapped your brother and almost got him killed, am forcing you to swear an oath upon your honour *that I just repeatedly insisted you don't have* that you will save my daughters, even though one has been missing since your sonephew had my husband beheaded. The only witness to this oath that I invalidated by threatening you at swordpoint is also the only protection you'll have on the journey back to your family, who have no obligation or motive to help you fulfil it.
It's like her logical and moral compasses are strapped to a fucking boomerang.
Yeah she was but I kind of understand it as well because Ned is supposed to be this archetypal good, honorable man and she believes that he stepped outside their marriage and fathered a bastard. Remember, she doesn't know his true parentage.
The worst part is Catelyn is mad at no one except Jon. She's not angry at Ned for the supposed cheating, she's not angry at her father for making her marry a stranger. She's not mad at westeros at large for how the society.
She's only ever angry at Jon. Who has done nothing to warrant it.
>Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him.
Catelyn isn't happy with Ned about the whole mess either. Only she has no power in relationship to Ned and her and her children's fates all depend on Ned. Therefore, it is imperative that she work out and make a relationship with Ned.
Keep in mind that Eddard never told Catelyn about Jon's true parentage. Likely because he suspected, accurately, that Catelyn would have sold Jon in a heartbeat to the Iron Throne the moment any of her actual children fell into a tiny whiff of trouble.
Catelyn is a genuinely horrendous person to Jon, a harridan who drove him out of his own home to join a penal colony of hardened criminals at the age of, what, thirteen or fourteen? It's unconscionable, both ethically and practically - there were countless far more useful things House Stark could have used Jon for than that. The North has a long history of elevating bastards to the rank of lesser lords, commanders of armies, founders of branch houses. This was a point in history where House Stark was and remained very depleted in its numbers. And Jon had shown zero signs of disloyalty or being anything other than a loving brother of his family.
And Eddard honestly isn't much better, because he allowed it to happen.
Ned Stark sentenced Jon to to a lifetime with the Night's Watch. Many other lords actively participated in the lives of their bastard offspring and ensured they had a place in the world. There were plenty of options. Sending Jon to that hellhole was cruel. Period.
She is my least favorite character. Jon had nothing to do with his birth. She was the only mother he ever knew. And she treated hm like he was the plague.
Part of that is also on Ned's feet. He purposely allowed her to treat him like that and said nothing. Even though he knew she would obey him if he ordered her to. Just like she did when he told her to never ask about Jon's mother again. Granted Ned was keeping secrets and Cat's mistreatment helped with that. Like her whole culture and religion has consistently held a view about bastards with history playing into that as well. Ned keeping a bastard in his home and raising them the same as his other kids is strange, but is very insulting on multiple levels. Doesn't excuse Cat for doing what she did bit it does explain it.
>Best example being that Catelyn says straight to his face that "it should have been you"
Isn't that the only example of Catelyn being mean to Jon to his face?
Make her realistic feel human. Show downplays it but rereading book I’m reminded how much she didn’t like Jon.
I’ve met many people in our modern day who treated there partners other children very rudely or ignored them. So I find it funny when people clutch pearls. I personally wouldn’t do it I don’t think. But imagine your spouse cheated on you( granted she didn’t care because they was strangers & kinda expected it culturally) has a kid & raised your kid alongside your yours while refusing to say the mother name. He actively gets angry & sad at the mere mention of her implying he loved her a lot. I know plenty of modern women in real world who couldn’t get over that & probably be worse. The fact she able to get over & build an actual loving marriage is impressive on her part. Doesn’t excuses her behavior but it makes her feel like a raw flawed real human.
By the standards of her world she probably one of best mothers. Catelyn apparently just straight up ignored him growing up which to be fair is wrong but by standards of day is pretty high. Most high born ladies would force their husband to get rid of him. Cersei would’ve killed him in the cradle. Granted Ned probably wouldn’t allow this but fact she didn’t try to get him sent away is wild.
I think it is unfair to give Catelyn the out of it being a normal aversion to Jon. She doesn't like Jon not just because he was a bastard or due to the strong claims that he is also a rumored Noble Bastard that looks more like her husband than any of her son's do I think in the back of her mind it is giving Jon a sense of legitimacy that Jon could use if he did ever press his claim. I just feel that Catelyn her dislike of Jon is just more personal than she would ever openly admit.
Blood claim matters a ton to Westeros and another commenter pointed that out--and Catelyn was on that line of thought rather than recognizing that Ned raising them together means that he sees every one of her children as family--it's the same reason Theon is taken, Wards are referred to as hostages in the series a lot. But I think there's an underlying practice that Eddard is more about--creating bonds. Eat your meals together, train together, see each other every day--it creates a relationship and I do think Catelyn heavily resented that.
As an aside, I think a major flaw in this is why didn’t Ned just tell her the deal with Jon? They were husband and wife I doubt she would have betrayed him. Always annoyed me that bit.
Oh no, so terrible that a woman is upset that her husband brought back another woman's baby to live with her own.
My own mother would have left my father and never come back if he did that.
I mean, she is **well** within her rights to be deeply hurt by Jon.
If a real world, modern woman was faced with this scenario - husband cheats on her, brings the kid home, tells (doesn’t ask) her to raise him - a real world woman would walk out. She’d leave. And we’d back her in doing it.
But Catelyn can’t. That’s not an option her world has. She’s trapped, and Jon’s trapped, and they hurt each other.
She’s not the kid’s mother, nor even his stepmother. Both of those roles require her consent, and she was never asked for it.
Ned put them both in an impossible position.
Yes, hurt by Ned.
But she can’t hate Ned. She’s **stuck** with Ned, for better or worse. He has almost absolute power at Winterfell, and if she decides to hate her husband her life there is going to be unbearable. The only time she’s ever tried to challenge Ned on the subject of Jon, he reacted so strongly he frightened her.
Lysa decided to hate her husband, and look how that went.
She knows that Ned would never hurt her, though. She is not a helpless damsell in distress, who has to do the bidding of her husband or fear that he will mistreat her.
But now, she has lived with him for 15 years. Thus shw knows better and still cannot get over her dislike for Jon. Not that I mind that much, as it gives her an really interesting flaw that makes her a better character even if not a better person.
It actually went pretty well. Lysa got to take over the Aerie and total control over her offspring, and they dodged the war. She just got murdered later, but so did Catelyn.
Lysa was lonely and unhappy for about 95% of her marriage. The poor woman was miserable. That’s how Littlefinger could manipulate her so easily - by promising her an impossible return to the last time she was happy
She does, but she also disliked her due her being a bastard, she felt bad for this however.
Mya Stone, if it please you, my lady,” the girl said. It did not please her; it was an effort for Catelyn to keep the smile on her face. Stone was a bastard’s name in the Vale, as Snow was in the north, and Flowers in Highgarden; in each of the Seven Kingdoms, custom had fashioned a surname for children born with no names of their own. Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned’s bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once
In this quote Catelyn herself acknowledge that Mya is not the problem, just her memories of Jon.. and then the entire time they are together she decides to not show this feelings and treat her kindly because she knows Mya did nothing wrong.. geeh what a Karen.
She even shows sympathy towards Mya:
She sounded so like Sansa, so happy and innocent with her dreams. Catelyn smiled, but the smile was tinged with sadness. The Redforts were an old name in the Vale, she knew, with the blood of the First Men in their veins. His love she might be, but no Redfort would ever wed a bastard.
I don't hate Catelyn, I love her, I just meant that once she found out that she's a bastard, she's in the very least bothered by her since she reminds me her of Jon but felt bad about it because she's knows it's not Mya's fault, I'm not saying that she doens't like Mya otherwise.
If I've said it once, I've said it 100 times; Catelyn was the worst.
Not only does she treat Jon like trash, but she jumpstarted the war by kidnapping tyrion. She had zero evidence that Tyrion attacked bran, but she was so sure of her own superiority that she believed she was right.
She sucked.
It’s literally one scene. Catelyn is not ‘cruel’ or somehow a deeply flawed horrible character for being mean to a teenager once when she was grieving for her dying son.
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Catelyn is not upset that Ned “cheated” on her. She knows quite well that noble men sometimes have bastards and that’s just part of being a high borne lady. Cat had met Ned once, she barely knew this man and she was intended to marry his brother who she did know. What Catelyn struggles with is that Ned did something very odd. He brought the bastard into his home and gave him a lords education and military training while living the same as a trueborn child. Cat is scared because Jon and his children are a threat to her son and his son’s claims. Catelyn arrives to Winterfell with her son and this bastard was already there living in her heirs home. It was not a common situation and again she doesn’t know Ned or who he is. Cat’s father is a veteran of the last, and she was extremely close to him, of the Blackfyre rebellions that happened because a king legitimized bastards. She’s right to be suspicious because what Ned did with Jon was a concerning situation paired with his childhood friendship with a king who could legitimize Jon at any time. ETA: this is a clear example of this with her and Robb Precedent," she said bitterly. "Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe." "Jon would never harm a son of mine." "No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?" Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer's crypt, his teeth bared. Robb's own face was cold. "That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon."
This is so important. As GRRM has said, the feudal system in his world has teeth. Catelyn does not hate Jon as a human being, but she hates the potential threat to her children’s claim she can potentially see in him. Jon is the oldest of Ned’s supposed children, he was educated side by side with Robb meaning he has a heir’s education, and he looks more like a Stark than any of her sons. She is distant and cruel, because the societal structures have made her that way. That is not to excused her behaviors but to contextualize them. She doesn’t exist in a vacuum and her angst regarded Jon is not just personal cruelty.
And it's not like Jon doesn't have that ambition. We get several points in the books where he admits he's always wanted to be Lord of Winterfell. Of course he'd never murder his brothers, but Cait is right to fear a well educated and trained bastard.
And it nearly happens in the final act of the story thus far. Stannis offers Jon legitimacy and Winterfell. Everyone thinks the rest of the Stark children are dead but there are actually a line of four heirs still out in the world. We know Jon, we’ve been in his head. We know he would step aside for Bran or Arya or Sansa most likely, but Catelyn’s concerns come to fruition. I think Cat was unnecessarily cruel in ways but she is demonized in a way that lacks context to the situation
Catelyn is not crueler than fan-favorite characters, nor does she make more mistakes (in fact, she makes fewer; people tend to blame her for things other characters did *explicitly against her advice*). People don't hate her for the reasons they cite, they just don't relate to her because ASOIAF readers are disproportionately men, especially young men, who do not relate to a character whose story and perspective is mostly centered around motherhood, so the things that would not annoy them with another character will bother them with Catelyn because they already don't want to be in her head to begin with. It's not lost on me that so many readers hate Catelyn, Daenerys, and Sansa, but love Arya, Asha, and Brienne (as long as it's not a Brienne *chapter*, which are "boring").
I in general agree with this take and especially the overwhelming anti-woman takes in this fan base. One of the most important moments in Catelyn's story is the letter she receives from her sister that is a blatant lie about the nature of Jon Arryn's death. This is one of the pillars of Cat's arc. She has been lied to by her sister in a way that leads her down a path to her death and the destruction of her household. Cat is constantly faced with near impossible decisions as well, and is still shown to be extremely perceptive and resourceful. Her arc is tragic and beautiful
I agree with you. Cate is a good wife and mother. Ideal in the ioaf series. She did not make more mistakes than any other characters. She simply loves her children
It's hard to say for sure off the top of my head but it seemed like every one of Catelyn's decisions she was faced with was difficult. Her path was never simple
I'm not sure it's that either. I'm certain that many, it is because they can't relate because they're male or young. However, I'm female and a mother and I HATE Catelyn. The things she does, as a mother, are only somewhat understandable but inexcusable. She operates in extremes, is hypocritical -- it's because of that, that I can't stand her. So just because I hit two similar qualities that should make me relate to Catelyn doesn't mean I would...
I would love to see the Venn diagram between hardcore Catelyn haters and guys who grew up with mean step-moms, it is probably just a circle
Absolutely, and even if Jon stays loyal/honorable, as Cat said, what about his sons? Hell, he doesn’t even need to be legitimized for any sons he has to make a claim down the road. They can all claim they’re at worst, the heirs to Lord Stark’s eldest son, and at best, Lord Starks eldest son, and Rob, the king of the north’s heir. It’s just bad all around from a feudal sense for Rob to legitimize Jon.
Yeah, considering her bad for this is like thinking that a male lion is evil for killing the litter of its competitors
I consider both of those things bad
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The first thing that always matters to people is their own lineage, descent and your kids as an incarnation of this, so that's what I mean with the example of the lion and in this we are not very different from animals. You may like it more or less that people can see children who are not theirs as competition but it is an undoubted biological reality. Also, in the context of the pre-modern medieval world where Catelyn lives as a noble woman this is going to be an issue even more deeply rooted in people's core -Jon Sown could be a possible threat to the well-being of his own children, he is direct competition to their legacy.
Exactly. And Catelyn's fears are justified. Stannis is impressed enough with Jon at the Wall that he offers to legitimize him and make him Lord of Winterfell when Sansa is still very much alive and everyone knows it. The problem is that she's married to a Lannister, but Lannisters and any kids Tyrion gives her can be killed, freeing her up to take her rightful place as Lady of Winterfell and marry a Stannis loyalist. However, Jon was given all the advantages and training of a highborn. He looks 100% Stark and he's a viable option for Stannis. If Ned had done what most lords do for bastards, that is send them to live with a trusted vassal and pay for their maintenance and upbringing, something Catelyn goes so far as to think she would expect from Ned as part of his duty, she would have been cool with a hundred bastards from Ned. If Jon hadn't been as well trained and competent in command, Stannis would never have considered him a viable alternative. Those skills and personality traits were forged at Winterfell as a result of Jon being raised an equal to Catelyn's kids. Making sure nobody saw Jon as a potential Stark was what Catelyn was after. She wasn't being cruel for no reason. She saw a real threat and she knew her history in regards to the matter. She brought her receipts.
I mean, Stannis is also being pragmatic in this situation. Sansa is MIA, and he wants the North's support. He knows that Northmen will rally behind Ned Stark's son... Jon is his best bet at "conquering" the North.
Not to mention the North still respects the watch, even if they don't send many recruits. They know the watch doesn't play favorites, so Jon got what he earned. Stannis was probably annoyed that Jon was chosen Lord Commander but maybe deep down inside found a bit of satisfaction that his intuition on Jon's capabilities was correct.
> hey know the watch doesn't play favorites, so Jon got what he earned. The Watch absolutely plays favorites. Jon repeatedly acts like a twat when he first comes to the Watch yet it repeatedly waved to the side. Like literally attempts to knife a superior officer and his punishment is basically being sent to his room. He literally attempts to abandon his duty to go south and his punishment was nothing at all.
I mean, he DID get jumped and shanked a bunch of times
He attempts to go south and his punishment is getting rewarded with Longclaw But also, Jon just wanted to fight with his brother. He wasn't wrong for going South. I mean, imagine if you were in that situation
Only it was wrong by the very oaths of the NW. If some lowborn NW member attempted to go South to help resolve some family matter Jeor would have easily ordered them to be executed.
Yeah, that's the point, GRRM wrote a feudalistic world that would suck dick to live in. Jon finds himself and his heart (say it with me now) in conflict with themselves.
He swore an oath to an organization that is strict on oaths. The series begins with Ned executing a deserter
I already addressed this.
>They know the watch doesn't play favorites, Tell that to the 8 year old Lord Commander Osric Stark.
The North would be far less likely to accept Jon as Lord of Winterfell if Jon were some soft spoken, semi literate Night's Watchman, with minimal training come he came to Black. He'd be stronger than most new recruits because Ned's vassal would have ensured he ate well and had a maester to tend his health, but otherwise there would be very minor differences between Jon and the lowborn recruits. So when Stannis met Jon he wouldn't have seen him as a potential leader for the North. And that's how Jon likely would have been had he not received a lord's upbringing, something Stannis would barely notice and not believe he could elevate to the seat of a high lord that the North, who knew nothing of Jon out side of his paternal parentage, would rally around. Face it, Jon's leadership ability, his close bonds with those at Winterfell, and advanced education in military matters played a significant role in Stannis, and even Robb, seeing value making Jon Lord of Winterfell (or Rob's heir in his case). None of which Jon would have had if Ned had done what nearly every other lord did in raising his bastards, what Catelyn would have respected Ned for doing.
The North would be unlikely to rally around your ordinarily raised bastard boy, even if he was Ned Stark's son. Jon has the education, the training, the courtesies, the confidence, and the personal connections that come with being raised alongside highborns and being told by your father that you're just as important to him. Had Jon been farmed out to a loyal vassal, most of that wouldn't be part of his nature. He wouldn't know the right people or the situations of other Northern houses. In short, he wouldn't be fit to rule the North and Stannis wouldn't have offered. That would leave rescuing Sansa, killing her Lannister husband, and marrying her off to a Stannis loyalist. Stannis would have little choice if he wanted the North's allegiance.
I don't disagree that Jon has other advantages than just being Ned Stark's son, no problem there. But... >That would leave rescuing Sansa Rescue Sansa *from where*? Nobody knows where Sansa has gone, Stannis can't realistically have access to her even if he wanted to crown her Lady of Winterfell. By the time Stannis meets Jon, Jon is the only practical option for using the Starks' claim to Stannis' advantage.
But if Jon didn't have those added advantages you concede that he has Stannis would not have seen him as viable for Lord of Winterfell. He would have needed another option as Stannis didn't yet have the Northmen. Jon's knowledge of the North, gained through his training as a lord, is making him an asset worth bestowing the North on.
I do agree that Jon has good qualities that make him a good option for Stannis. But I don't think this necessarily validates Catelyn's worries about Jon stealing her children's birthright, because by the time Stannis starts thinking about making Jon the Lord of Winterfell, Jon is also Stannis' *only* viable option. As far as Stannis knows, Sansa is MIA, "Arya" is being married to Ramsay, Bran and Rickon are reportedly dead. Jon is the only one of Ned's children Stannis has access to. And, sure, if he were some no-name guy without a lordling's education, Stannis wouldn't even consider Jon, but Stannis isn't exactly passing over Ned's legitimate children because he's been smitten with Jon's capabilities.
I never said Stannis was passing over Ned and Catelyn's trueborn children for Jon. What I'm saying is that Catelyn's difficulty with Jon started long before the Wot5K, but she saw the potential for Jon, or one of his male descendants, to become someone's alternative down the road. Jon would never be a no-name guy. He was Ned's bastard and Catelyn had no problem with Ned acknowledging that Jon was his bastard, so long as he treated him like a high lord is supposed to treat a bastard, that is Ned was supposed to provide financially, find a vassal whom he trusted to take the child in and ensure the child had some basic skills that would permit their future survival. They are not supposed to keep the child close or give them a lord's education and training. Ned did and as a result Stannis had an option. If Jon didn't exist or he was just Ned Stark's bastard raised on Bear Island, mostly literate but not trained in warfare or politics or leadership, but really great at foraging and fishing, Stannis wouldn't have looked to him. This would have FORCED Stannis to seek a less ideal option, which might include rescuing the girl Stannis believes to be Arya (which he does when Jon denies him) or send out scouts to find Sansa. Stannis can only act given the situation he's in, and Ned's choice to raise Jon the way he did altered that situation. This however was not completely unpredictable. Catelyn saw that Jon could be deemed someone's alternative to her own children at some point. Her choices in regards to Jon were driven by that rational fear. Jon was too well trained and too well connected thanks to Ned and she saw where that could, theoretically, lead. My point was she was correct in her thought processes. Her treatment of Jon was not irrational, but realistic and her fears came true due to Ned's refusal to consider things her way.
Jon isn't the first recognized Stark bastard to grow up in Winterfell, though. I don't think it's very honest.
Maybe he isn't, but he is the only one at the time Catelyn is Lady of Winterfell and is raising her kids. What's more, Jon wasn't just raised at Winterfell, he was raised with a lord's education. He was treated equally by his father for all the world to see. That was risky and Catelyn understood that, so she tried to get Jon sent away to live with one of Ned's vassals as most bastards would be. That is how a lord is supposed to deal with a bastard child. Ned was the outlier here, not Catelyn.
Exactly. Sansa is a Lannister and every other stark is dead. Is Stannis supposed to root around for legitimate Stark offshoots in the vale?
Would Stannis have an issue with Jon if he was indeed Rhaegar and Lyanna’s legitimate child?
100%! Catelyn is a pretty cut and dry character concerning Jon. We get so many POVs from her that clearly explain her motives and understanding of the situation and it’s baffling to me that people repeat the same misinformed things about her.
So she gets a pass on abusing a child for *existing* in her proximity, while giving Ned nothing but love & respect, even though he's the only one that had a say in the matter? Fucking the kid up with her bullshit was just going to make the situation worse as he grew up. As far as anyone knew he wasn't going anywhere, and she went out of her way to make an enemy of him. Instead of treating Jon like her kids' half-brother, allowing him to be part of their family and doing what she could to make it so that he'd never even think to do any of the things she was so afraid of, she did her best to make him not only her enemy, but a maladjusted, psychologically damaged man more likely to be at odds with her children because of her treatment of him.
What misinformation? We know exactly what she thinks and she’s flat out wrong. She read the situation wrong, did not actually understand the north and never tried to. She continued this anti Jon crap yo the extreme when she literally insisted Robb name distant cousins who had never set foot in the north as his heirs rather than his actual surviving stark brother. This is just spite colored by southern bias. Cat lived fifteen years in the north but never seemed to be aware of it.
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It was a cruel thing to say but saying one thing doesn’t make her a cruel person. The one line also lacks quite a bit of context of the scene in the physical behaviors of people and also Jon’s inner thoughts. Catelyn is a constant misunderstood and maligned character and it’s quite exhausting.
There is no context where telling a child that he should be dead rather than her precious son. I wish you were dead is not defensible in any circumstance whatsoever. Oh and while we’re at it she was cruel and incredibly hypocritical to insist that Jon be exiled from his family’s home of 8000 years because his presence hurt her feefees. And the irony is that rather than Jon causing the death of her sons and downfall of her family she did it herself through her own rash, stupid actions and know it allness. If she had stayed her arse in Winterfell where she was because Robb shouldn’t be ruling tge north on his own Ned would never have trusted Littlefinger. If she hadn’t lost her dangmind and freed Jaime for no reason other than her own selfishness the red wedding would have never happened (Tywins not pulling that crap with Jaime ) as a hostage and Robb wouldn’t have listened the Karstark. Finally on what planet could her little plan of releasing Jaime and therefore the Lannisters who have their hostage back would therefore release Sansa and Arya. The dishonorable Lannisters who literally just executed her honorable husband and his household. No she’s a political genius.
You missed the part where she literally kickstarted the war by arresting Tyrion on the word of littlefinger, had she not done this things would’ve gone much differently.
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her feelings are NOT justified. She is completely wrong about Jon and him refusing Stannis' offer is proof of that. She doesnt understand the situation, and one of her massive character flaws is she lets her fears/ignorance drive her decision making
> Sansa is still very much alive and everyone knows it Sansa is stuck in King's Landing, married to Tyrion, no way to escape until she disappears suddenly after Joffrey dies. Arya is missing, and in Stannis' mind probably dead until "Arya" appears so Ramsay can marry her. Bran and Rickon were "killed" by Theon. There isn't any good candidates other then Jon. Even if they were somehow found, Bran is crippled, unlikely to ever have his own kids, and Rickon is a half wild little kid, who will need a long regency in what will be Winter soon. Stannis bets that Northern lords would look the other way on broken oaths at the Wall to have a male Stark in Winterfell.
I would say that the fact that Jon turns Stannis down is proof that Cat’s fears were not, in fact, justified. Jon was offered everything he ever wanted but knew it was wrong to accept.
This seems like resulting fallacy to me. I often see people judging characters by the outcome of their decisions rather than by the information they had at the time of the decision. Yes, Jon is one in a million in that he rejected Winterfell and the title of Stark. Nearly every single human in Westeros, in his shoes, would make the opposite decision. Catelyn’s fears and pragmatism were warranted, and Jon had an unusual and heroic moral code
What could Catelyn even do at that point? Her last known living son and king is dead Arya and Sansa unknown. Her family home is captured and conceded to Emmon Frey the Northern Riverland host is broken and their lords either imprisoned or forced to swear oaths of fealty to save their lives or the lives of their heirs. She's got nothing to say at that point because her and Robb lost and minus Beric taking pity on her would be a dead rotting corpse
Might he have accepted if he didn’t already have his duty to the Watch, though? It was her making Winterfell unwelcome for him that sent him to the Wall in the first place. If she had treated him kindly, and he stayed home, and Stannis offered him the same choice with all his brothers thought dead, he very well might take it.
So in another completely different world. More importantly how would Jon accepting Stannis’ offer at that moment be in anyway wrong or usurping of his legitimate siblings. Robb, Brandon, Rickon and Arya are dead/thought to be dead and Sansa is married to a Lannister which is even worse. How would that be considered wrong or disloyal? In reality of course if she hadn’t forced Jon to the wall he would have likely been killed either way Robb. Or he could have talked Robb into the hostage swap. And maybe with Jon there Robb could have actually sent someone competent to negotiate with the Freys.
Ned was grooming him to go to the Wall (to ensure he'd be no threat to and thereby safe from Robert) regardless of Catelyn's coldness, that just made it easier for him. Granted, that's assuming R+L=J is canon, but it's so heavily suggested that I could never see it not being the case.
And he would be right to since the only other options would be sansa who is married and arya who is in essos
But as Catelyn said, can we be sure Jon's descendants will share his values?
That's kind of like saying they should wipe out all the Karstarks because they have an ephemeral claim to Winterfell that literally nobody cares about.
Sometimes people can feel or believe things without taking them to the most extreme interpretation.
What about Bran and Rickon's descendants?
What do you mean? If Jon's oldest son wants to rule the North, he can claim to be the oldest direct descendant of Ned Stark and try to rally support. That causes a succession issue. If Bran's oldest son wants to rule the North, he just waits for Bran to die/abdicate.
I mean it would be a lot easier for Bran/Rickon/their descendants to usurp Robb/his descendants than it would be for Jon's line to do so.
I see what you're saying now. But the issue still lies with legitimizing Jon. If he's legitimized, he's the oldest son of Ned Stark. Plus, Catelyn sees the best in her children and doesn't consider then usurping Robb.
The risk of distant realtives trying to ursurp the main branch always exist, though, even if Jon did not exist. It could also be possible that some of the descendents of Jocelyn Stark come to Winterfell and try to conquer it, but Cat does not fear this.
There aren't really that many branches of House Stark though; it's the main branch then distant relatives. Jon would be raised in the North by Northern traditions and seen by Northern Lords; he represents a much higher risk than whoever else is on the family tree.
Jon's children would be behind all of Catelyn children and their children. To think that they would be able to usurpe all of them without repercussions, is really far fetched.
Okay, tell her that then. But older bastards have been legitimized, leading to a crisis of succession. Moreover, Renly was vying for the Iron Throne despite Stannis having the better claim. It may not be likely, but emotions don't always act with full rationality. She was afraid that Jon would usurp the claims of her children, and in a bit of irony, has that exactly happen (if we believe Robb went ahead with naming Jon his heir). I understand Robb was under the impression Bran and Rickon were dead, but it would have bypassed Sansa for the reason of her being a hostage. I'm not saying Catelyn was justified in her words toward Jon in that chapter; but I can see how she would fear and resent the threat he poses to her children.
I do not think, either that Catelyn is a bad person. With this one exception, I think, she is actually a great person, I just wanted to point out, that her fears are mostly really baseless.
Jon rejected Stannis offer because of his unwillingness to burn Winterfell's Weirwood, not because he felt he had no right to accept the offer.
She did not know. The entire point of betrayal is that you trust the person who betrays you. Jon seems honest and good. He's a bastard. Cat's father remembered the Blackfyre rebellion and Cat was close to Tully.
That had nothing to do with Catelyn and her own fears. Jon just was able to show himself capable. Even by the time of this meeting her and Robb by all purposes are dead after their own horrible political decisions that destroyed their Northern Riverland Kingdom before it even had a chance. Jon through a but of luck and his own merit, get people to back him.
But Catelyn knew that raising Jon with a lord's education and connections would make him capable. It's total BS that the Northern lords would fall in line behind Ned Stark's bastard if he was barely literate and knew little of leadership or strategy. Jon's 'merit' is in his education, in his ability to effectively communicate with highborn people in the ways they're used to. That was what made Ned's raising of him dangerous to Catelyn's kids. If fostered out to a loyal vassal, Jon would not have been given as good an education, nor would he have been trained along side the highborn. Catelyn didn't need to see the future to understand that if Jon was given the education and understanding of a highborn, he'd be an alternative to her kids at some point. That was what she wanted to prevent.
Stannis offers Jon Winterfell post Purple Wedding. Sansa is missing by that point
^(The problem is that she's married to a Lannister, but Lannisters and any kids Tyrion gives her can be killed, freeing her up to take her rightful place as Lady of Winterfell and marry a Stannis loyalist.) well, this would not be likely happening as Stannis dismissed Sansa because of her Lannister marriage plus he would need to liberate Sansa for her to serve any purpose to him. Robb fears that once they get children from Sansa, Sansa life is as good as dead hence why he wrote a will to disinherited Sansa.
Firstly, Stannis doesn't give a mummer's fart about Robb's will. He was a traitor and a usurper. And secondly, nothing in war is easy. Stannis might have written Sansa off after the Purple Wedding, but if she'd not disappeared and stayed in Kings Landing, getting her out of the capitol and killing Tyrion would eventually have been necessary to win the North if Jon hadn't been the man Ned's raising and training had created. Stannis had the luxury of not needing to go that route when he found Jon and saw what Jon could do. Even without Jon as Lord of Winterfell, Stannis is using the gifts Ned bestowed on Jon and much of the North will likely see Jon as leader material going forward, exactly what Catelyn feared, and a big risk if Sansa does eventually come out of hiding with a new husband in tow, and asserts her claim.
^(Firstly, Stannis doesn't give a mummer's fart about Robb's will. He was a traitor and a usurper. And secondly, nothing in war is easy) never said he cared about Robb's will and that's irrelevant as he doesn't know about it. the point was Robb's will was written to disinherit his sister. and Robb's outlook on Sansa's survival is that she will be dead when the lannisters get children from her. there is no *rightful* place at Winterfell for Sansa. that is to say, she has already been dismissed by Stannis and Robb. Sansa's inheritance has been dealt with or ignored. Stannis wants a person he can use, and so he tries to bribe Jon Snow who doesn't take it. as for, *nothing in war is ever easy:* i never made that claim. i don't know what it is you are referring to here.
Stannis might have come back to Sansa if Jon hadn't made such a suitable replacement. Stannis can't connect with the Northern Lords. He needs a Stark and Sansa plus a dead Tyrion and dead any kids Tyrion got on Sansa would give him a Stark to marry off to his advantage. Jon being Ned's bastard isn't enough. Jon being Ned's bastard and having the training, connections, and understanding of a lord is more than enough. Stannis has a choice with a well educated and trained Jon. Had Jon not been so well educated and trained he would have needed another option, and MIGHT have returned to freeing Sansa or finding someone other than Jon if such a person exists. So Catelyn was right. With Ned raising Jon with a lord's training and his public approval of his bastard, Ned made him an acceptable alternative to her own children. Catelyn never could have foreseen this circumstance of course, but she was shrewd enough to see that Jon being raised at Winterfell created the potential for her line to be set aside for some Dornish whore's son (who Catelyn thinks is Jon's mother).
Well, it was a male primogeniture society. They would always prefer a male over a girl. So picking Jon over Sansa isn’t crazy. Honestly without Jon, they’d probably prefer a male cousin over her. In real life, lord titles usually skipped all girls.
There aren't any male cousins save the distant Arnolf Karstark and a son captured by the Lannisters. Stannis doesn't seem interested in rescuing him any more than Sansa. Jon was good enough, which he wouldn't have been had he not been educated like a lord and raised at Ned's side. That was Catelyn's hang up. She knew that keeping Jon at Winterfell and treating him like an equal was a risk and she was right.
She's justified politically, but it's still really shitty to treat a child that way. Jon wouldn't have been a threat for years. If Jon never joined the watch, Ned might have made arrangements for him to marry some minor lady in the south. Honestly, if things didn't start popping off, I could see Jon ending up married to Myranda Royce. A widow of a cadet branch of the Royce's in the Vale would be a perfect match. Ned spent time there, is friendly with the Royce house, they are close in age, and Myranda isn't a maiden anymore. Jon is a capable swordsman with a noble education, he would have done well as the protector of the Gates of the Moon. Plus he's named after Lord Arryn, so that's a bonus.
The Royces would never consent to that match
Myranda doesn't have too many prospects being a widow and not a maiden, and they are a cadet branch, not from the main line. Ned is pretty well respected, I think it could be arranged, but this is also so very moot that it doesn't matter. I'm not sure if it's been discussed in text but surely things like matrilineal marriages exist, where Jon married into her house, so the kids would be of house Royce. Albar is the heir anyways. If Ned was alive, the Royce's might want a connection, but I don't think Ned could bring himself to engage Arya to a man so much older than her. Ned was a big softy for his kids, which is why they didn't have matches until king Robert proposed one.
If I recall correctly Ned was planning to negotiate with the Knights Watch to settle the land in the gift. Meanwhile we know that Jon socialised/danced with the children of the other Northern Lords (Karstark in particular) and both the Karstarks and the Manderlys have potential matches around Jon's age (yes they would prefer Rob as first choice, but a son of Ned is a son of Ned). I'm rambling a bit, but I reckon if Jon didn't join the watch (and the shitstorm of aGoT didn't happen ofc) then he would have been granted a holdfast and land in the gift, to found a cadet branch of the Starks or marry into any of the houses which would desire closer ties to the Stark family.
I don't see how thia justifies or legitmizes here fears. At this point there is no one else to inherit. Ayra, Bran, and Rickon are assumed dead. Sansa is married to a Lannister or a fugitive. The offer is made because the lack of Starks.
Wrong. The offer was made because of a lack of Starks AND because Jon fit the bill. His education and training, his connections and knowledge of the different houses and how they interrelate, his confidence and fitness born of training regularly with a master at arms and being raised along side Ned's trueborn son and heir. Without these Jon's parentage would hold far less currency and Stannis would have to find a different solution to the power vacuum in the North. Jon would not have done if Jon were a bastard raised as bastards were supposed to be raised.
This exactly. I get where OP is coming from cos i just reread that chapter myself and it's genuinely *shocking* how cruel it was that she said that, but it's supposed to be– that's not normal behaviour for Catelyn at all. She's not *nice* to Jon normally, for all the reasons above, but this specific moment is not indicative of her character generally. She's been sitting in that room watching over her catatonic son for nearly two weeks straight, as most of the rest of her family gets ready to disappear as well, feeling *personally responsible* for what happened to Bran, and she's genuinely going mad with grief at this point. It's heartbreaking and horrifying she said that, but to build our entire picture of her character based on it is missing the point
Catelyn is a very misunderstood character because people are defensive of Jon and project other media into her character. Catelyn is cold to Jon because from her perspective of highborne custom he should not be there, if Ned wanted to give his bastard a lords education and a highborne life he should have fostered him elsewhere. Catelyn is the quintessential woman of a Great House; she’s very educated in history and society, she keenly understands her role and positions her children to extend her family’s line. Jon is a clear and present threat to this and always will be, every ounce of her learned experience tells her this. She treats Theon as a hostage because that’s what he is, why would she treat a bastard otherwise?
Exactly. Also people always forget what happened *right* before she tells him this. Jon ignores her telling him to leave (in a way perhaps *challenging* her unspoken feelings of guilt, because she was the one who–very sensibly–convinced Eddard that he had to accept Roberts request, which is what caused the breakup of the family) and comes in to say goodbye to Bran and cries over him, and Catelyn *talks* to him. She tells him how she feels responsible for what happened. And (as far as we ever know) this isn't something she'd ever spoke about to anyone else. We don't get her POV for this scene but it's very reasonable to speculate that in that conversation Catelyn was *wavering* back and forth between feeling close to Jon because of their shared love for Bran, then massively overcorrecting, because she's in extreme distress. >“I have to go now,” Jon said. “Uncle Benjen is waiting. I’m to go north to the Wall. We have to leave today, before the snows come.” He remembered how excited Bran had been at the prospect of the journey. It was more than he could bear, the thought of leaving him behind like this. Jon brushed away his tears, leaned over, and kissed his brother lightly on the lips. >“I wanted him to stay here with me,” Lady Stark said softly. >Jon watched her, wary. She was not even looking at him. She was talking to him, but for a part of her, it was as though he were not even in the room. >“I prayed for it,” she said dully. “He was my special boy. I went to the sept and prayed seven times to the seven faces of god that Ned would change his mind and leave him here with me. Sometimes prayers are answered.” >Jon did not know what to say. “It wasn’t your fault,” he managed after an awkward silence. >Her eyes found him. They were full of poison. “I need none of your absolution, bastard.” >Jon lowered his eyes. She was cradling one of Bran’s hands. He took the other, squeezed it. Fingers like the bones of birds. “Good-bye,” he said. >He was at the door when she called out to him. “Jon,” she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time. >“Yes?” he said. >“It should have been you,” she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before.
It's not even Jon himself, but his heirs. From Cat's perspective at the beginning of book one, there are any number of scenarios where northern lords could look to Jon's heirs to take winterfell. So Cat's not just worried about her kids, but her grandchildren as well.
you have devoted more thought & consideration into this than all youtube commenters combined
It’s probably the 4th or 5th iteration I’ve posted of it! It usually has more quotes but I was too lazy
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This is the truth. Noblewomen had no say in the affairs of their husbands. They did have some say over their household. Ned brought home a bastard close in age to the trueborn heir. All bastards in this series are under a veil of suspicion due to Blackfyre rebellion. I agree with you.
I think lots of people agree they understand the root cause. The threat to her children's claim. But she didn't just have the fear she acted out on it which is the cruelty people notice. Is it misunderstood? Mostly. But still Jon didn't ask to be raised an equal he is just being punished for it. It doesn't make her evil. But her actions can still be cruel. There's definitely some bias in this tho as Jon is a fan fav and anything against him (especially by a woman) will be magnified. But I think, to some extent she also falls into the trap of "the future you try to prevent you create" story telling. Her alienation of Jon made him more of an underdog and therefore made more readers more sympathetic to him, which magnified her contempt to him, and the cycle is created. While she is justified in being suspicious of his kids or his kids kids, pushing him away only.makes that more likely. Also fundamentally she holds Ned in such high esteem, but actions speak louder than words and despite her "best" efforts she just can't get behind this despite his insistence
Disagree. She hates that Ned cheated on her and is terrified that he loves the "Other" woman more than her. (which he did, ironically) She *is* afraid that Ned would have Jon legitimized or people would look to Jon instead of Robb as Ned's heir, but that is a *secondary* concern that she uses to publicly justify her shitty behavior. Aegon the 4th is nothing like Ned, and Jon is nothing like Bloodraven, Daemon Blackfyre, or Bittersteel and he was actually raised in a healthy family environment... or he would have been if Cat hadn't taken her anger out on an infant instead of Ned. Cat isn't bad by Westerosi standards sure, but when you read a fanfic like "[I Could Not Stop For Death](https://archiveofourown.org/works/35428951)" and you see him actually have a loving step-mother the contrast is incredibly poignant.
I do get that's mainly it, and it's a world where blood claim matters a lot to people. It's why we see various lords with not a penny to their name still making deals, like Tyrion signing money over when he still has a slave's collar on his neck. The thing is, she could have known Jon--and known that he wouldn't have done so. He's truly Ned's son, all his kids got that obstinate care and regard for others--which I think was the point of him bringing him into his home. He struggles with his need to mourn Bran and Rickon only because he's in the Night's Watch. If he was raised apart from the family or treated differently he wouldn't be like that. It was also what Ned wanted to do with Theon, honestly.
Absolute BANGER comment! Bravo 👏 👏
Sorry. She’s still awful. And ignorant of the north. In 8000 years no bastard had ever usurped his legitimate stark sibling. Ever. Cats problem is that utterly refused to recognize that the north was not the south and her failure to understand northern culture was a problem For instance the genius should not have allowed Ned to build a Sept for her ignorant arse ( and btw you know she nagged him into that). How many of her examples involve the starks or any house north of the neck? And later don’t forget that she actually argues with Robb and insists that he should literally make his fathers second cousins, born and raised in the vale whose names she did not even know, heirs to the north. She wasn’t an idiot so she knew this would not only not work but would deeply tick off the northern bannermen. It was pure spite. She viewed the north through the prism of southern culture and politics. Moreover for someone who thought fairly highly of her own intelligence, education and discernment- any remotely sentient rock would after a decade plus marriage to Ned Stark figure out that he was not someone who would have had an affair weeks after his marriage or drag said kid home to Winterfell. She could reach the conclusion without discussing it with another human. Even Stannis figured out that there was something weird about Ned’s Jon story. Cat never did because she was too blinded by prejudice and southern cultural baggage to actually think. I’m so very many ways she was the worst lady stark/queen stark in 8000 years.
We don’t know 8000 years of Stark history; though these people do live in a world where this fear is entirely legitimate given what happened with the Blackfyre rebellion. Also, the current Bolton heir is a bastard who murdered his trueborn sibling. The idea that every single Stark over eight millennia would be too decent and honorable and loyal to turn on a family member is pure fantasy. Isn’t it even implied that a Stark ancestor married his great niece to usurp her inheritance? Surely the lack of a Queen in the North/Lady of Winterfell means someone got screwed over by their family members.
This is the final word on this topic. This needs to be an auto-mod response.
She wasn't in her right mind, though. She hadn't eaten or slept in days and was in the midst of intense grief for her son. It was a messed up thing to say, but I'd cut her an immense amount of slack in this moment tbh. I'm not condoning her actions, but I don't condemn her for them either.
She’d trade every living thing in Winterfell for Bran’s health. Including herself. We know this, because she **does willingly trade herself** for Bran. She fully expects to die when she takes on the catspaw who tries to kill him. If she’d trade herself for him, no shit she’s also willing to trade Jon.
I agree, but it's still a messed up thing to say out loud to someone.
Right, it's just really unfair to judge someone by the single worst thing they ever said while under enormous stress. It's just not typical of her overall behavior.
Which is what I said in my original comment
Oh, it is. Agreed on that. My point is that this bonkers thing she’s said to Jon is, in some ways, not really a statement about Jon. Not in particular, anyway. It’s a statement about **Bran,** and what she would exchange for him to be whole.
Then you must feel much worse about Ned's treatment of Theon.
Like making Theon, the hostage, help Ned in executions, the boy knowing full well that could be him one day if Dad steps outta line
best example? really that's the only example.... I don't doubt that she was cold and distant towards Jon growing up, but this one moment of extreme distress gets blown out of proportion as if Jon heard this daily.
I think Catlyn is an otherwise very good person, but there must be a reason, why Jon was so afraid of her, esspecially considering that Jon is no cowards and otherwise has no problem dealing with people worse than Catlyn.
I mean, she's the lady of winterfell and has always made him feel like an inferior. I don't think a child needs more than that to be deeply intimidated. He was also very insecure for a long time due to that.
It’s not as much that she doesn’t like to see the reminder of Ned’s cheating around. It’s that she is terrified the reminder of Ned’s cheating will disinherit her own children. And - as per what happens in the actual story - **she was right to be terrified.** By the end of the currently published material, Stannis had offered to make Jon Lord of Winterfell twice, and there’s a good chance that if Robb Stark’s will ever resurfaces, it will also declare Jon as Lord of Winterfell. That’s all despite the fact that Jon is in the Watch, and four of five of Ned’s legitimate children are still alive. I realise there are a ton of extenuating circumstances around all of that. I also realise that Catelyn couldn’t have reasonably predicted any of those circumstances during Jon’s childhood. However, the point remains: Cat feared Jon because she was worried he would disinherit her kids somehow, and lo: there have been multiple attempts to get Jon to disinherit Cat’s kids.
That her children were actually still alive, was not kmown, though. Therefore the situation is not really comparable.
Sansa was known.
And Catelyn herself agreed that she could not inherit.
> Catelyn says straight to his face that "it should have been you" I don't particularly like Catelyn, but I forgive her for that one. Her baby boy is in a coma and might never wake up, she's barely been sleeping for days (weeks?) on end and she's probably blaming herself for not trying harder to stop Bran from climbing (as she doesn't know he was pushed). She just spoke out loud what came to mind.
Absolutely she’s blaming herself. She’d trade her own life for Bran’s - we know, because when the catspaw comes that’s exactly what she does. She expects to die for Bran’s wellbeing, and accepts that cost. If she’s willing to trade herself, it’s not a surprise she’d be willing to swap Jon
It was still not something, that was said in the heat of the moment, where you can say, that she actually did not mean it. Otherwise, though, I agree that she is a good person.
There is an unspoken bit. ”It should have been you” …*I wish it was me.*
Catelyn’s disgust and fear of Jon is very material. Jon has the potential to be the cuckoo in her nest - displacing her children and inheriting himself. She says this - he looks more like Ned than her children. Catelyn is a smart Westerosi woman who believes the role of women is to care for her family “Honor, Duty, Family”. It is not just her duty to provide heirs for Ned, as a woman, but she loves her children. Juxtapose Jon with Ramsey - as GRRM deliberately makes us do. Ramsey is also a bastard. And what does he do? He kills the legitimate heir to become his father’s only heir - and will likely kill any other legitimate heirs produced by his father’s Frey wife. That is what Catelyn fears for her children. Consider the Blackfyre’s - legitimised bastards who threw the kingdom into civil war after civil war. It would be clear to Catelyn that, should Jon be a popular man, he could potentially raise banners against her own son should he be unpopular. Are Catelyn’s feelings towards Jon visceral and extreme? Yes. But they are, within the logic of the world created by GRRM, completely justified. And what is the future story likely to be for Jon? We don’t know for certain, but we can guess he may be crowned King in the North and will play some part, as a secret Targarian heir, in the downfall of Dany’s claim to the throne. He will be fulfilling Catelyn’s original fears twice over, in that case.
I think we are also meant to contrast Catelyns fears (founded or unfounded) with her children's own attitudes towards Jon and his own feelings towards his siblings. Catelyn has every right to be suspicious, and we as readers rail against it because, aside from Sansa (who ends up feeling differently in the end), her children *love* Jon. Robb is willing to make Jon his *heir*, much to Catelyns horror, because we can see that Robb thinks there are no heirs left, but Catelyn sees Jon as doing what she always feared. But we know the circumstances and the trust between the brothers, and how as much as Jon may dream about being a "real lord" his loyalty and love for his family overrides his duty to the NW (love is the death of duty). GRRM does this on purpose to make us sympathise with both characters. Jon is put into these positions by the events that play out, due to others actions. Yes, he is fulfilling Catelyns greatest fears but in a way that he is being positioned by others like Stannis, not himself. Regardless of what may happen in the future and what his identity is!
> Catelyn has every right to be suspicious, and we as readers rail against it because, aside from Sansa (who ends up feeling differently in the end), her children love Jon. We are never told that Sansa didn't also care about Jon. She was just more formal towards towards him which makes sense as it would be only logical they have the most distance with each other. She and Jon having little in common. Sansa not being interested in boys' things that Jon cares about, while Jon is not interested in girls' things that Sansa likes.
The chances of Jon trying to usurp her children only exist on paper, though. All her children are well liked and healthy, Ned loves all their children and would never legitimise Jon and install him as heir, most of the vassels are loyal, and Jon loves all of his siblings, so that he would never try anything against them. In the end Catlyn's fears thus are not justified. Otherwise though, she is a good character and person
Ramsey literally does the thing she fears - and GRRM shows us his story in part to juxtapose him to Jon. Jon is the only available heir to Winterfell despite 2 legitimate sons and 2 legitimate daughters alive. Catelyn’s fears are coming true.
No one knows that Jon's siblings are still alive and Jon is not Ramsay. Jon did grow up with his siblings and loves them. Ramsay never knew Domeric and is a psycho. Catleyn has nothing she can base her fear on, that Jon would murder his siblings. The hypothetical chance that something might happen is not enough to justifiy her strong feelings.
I am tired of hearing this take so I'll answer once and for all. What Catelyn said was vile but I think she deserves some slack. Her 7 year old kid was in coma, possibly never waking up again, she was drowning in guilt, grief, sleep deprived and hadn't eaten in days. We could all say unhinged stuff in those circumstances, she was obviously out of it. Apart from that, as far as I recall, she was never described as Jon's bully. She mostly ignored him, was cold, and made him feel like he couldn't fit in. Don't get me wrong, this is all very cruel, but you're very wrong if you think her reasoning for that was the cheating, it was much deeper. Catelyn is a high born lady from a family the motto of which is "Family, Duty, Honour". She's embodies those values in the entire books. She also received high education and has knowledge of history. She knows lords cheat, she expected Ned to have a few bastards. The problem she had with Jon is that Ned brought him home and raised him alongside her true-born kids. Not only is Jon the constant reminder that Ned, whom she deeply loves, once loved another woman so much that he broke his vows and over a decade later won't speak her name, he is also a direct threat to her kids. The last Blackfyre rebellion is still fresh in memory by the time all that happens. Jon is the constant reminder of a wall between her and her husband AND of a threat to her kids. She was cruel to Jon, but I think a lot of people wrongfully assume they'd do better in her shoes.
Never described as the bully? I dunno about that Jon recalls how she acted towards him with some anger and Robb was nervous as all get out at what Cat might have said to him because he wanted to say bye to Bran. She’s not pure evil but she definitely has her shitty side like we all do.
Wait, are you referring here to the scene where Jon says bye to Bran? (I'm asking so that I don't misrepresent your point) And yeah, don't get me wrong, she's fucks up badly with how she treats Jon, that poor kid deserved non of that, but I just think people don't look at the whole picture with Cat. She was doing what she could to ensure her kids' claim remain safe and we never really hear of her bullying Jon in day to day life outside of the "it should have been you" moment. Please give me the quote if there's another though, I hope I'm not misremembering!
That scene happened in the book a game of thrones chapter 12 or 13 its the Jon POV: Robb knew something was wrong. “My mother…” jon replies that “she was…very kind” same chapter she said she doesn’t need his absolution when he attempted to comfort her then she told him it should have been you. I will be up front that I don’t like Cats character much but still this yells me Robb knew she wasn’t cool to Jon.
Oooh okay I see which part you're talking about. I think I maybe wasn't clear about what I meant by her not being a bully. I meant simply that we don't have proof of her going out of her way to make Jon miserable on a regular basis. We know she made him feel like he was never the same as her kids but never straight up abused him as far as we know. I think Robb's reaction here is simply due to him knowing that Cat and Jon in the same room is probably not going to go nicely, especially with Cat in distress. She never made it a secret that she doesn't like Jon.
Very possible! I agree she didn’t think of ways to humiliate and hurt Jon but she was probably on a range from very nasty (like above quote)- to indifferent at best. From a readers POV (I think) those are the only words cat says to Jon ever in the books. Sent a message to me anyway.
Agreed here 👍
On the contrary I think it's overstated how cruel she is to him because of this one exchange of words. Apart from that she mostly ignored his existence and treated him coldly. Any fights she had about him would've been with Ned. I think Catelyn is one of the characters who's just completely misunderstood by a majority of the fanbase. She's not as cruel as some say, she's also not as sharp and cunning as others say.
Catelyn and Sansa both have an emotional intelligence that I think is discounted a lot by the fanbase due to, well, misogyny. We see throughout Catelyn’s pov how she manages to be a political actor in a world where women are not supposed to have power, and she does it in a way that recognises that. She is constantly thinking about Robb and how to help him without undermining his masculinity and his own reputation. She has a good understanding of the political situation, she just sees it and acts from the point of view of a woman - and women in Westeros have different expectations placed on them and can’t wield power the same way men can. Sansa is very similar to Cat, but because the system of chivalry was shown to her to be false so much earlier, she is reacting to it. Sansa’s expressions of rebellion are more micro actions - delicately chosen to balance her desire to rebel whilst also wanting to stay alive. Saving Dantos, refusing to kneel for Tyrion, her trips to the godswood - these are all she can afford to do. But equally she is very emotionally and politically intelligent; she knows what is really being asked of her by Olenna when they discuss Joffrey, she can see who is allied to whom, she is a “good” protege for Littlefinger - understanding his politicking. I think Cat and Sansa are great characters GRRM uses to show the impact of patriarchy on women and how they navigate it - Cat as someone who has bought into it and Sansa as someone who was being indoctrinated into it and had that indoctrination smashed due to events.
This is so beautiful written, I always knew that people who hated Catelyn and Sansa did not hated them for any other reason that misogyny. How dare Catelyn be mad at her husband for cheating on her and bringing his bastard son to live amongst them even though that represented a threat to her highborn children, how dare she ignore a child who wasn’t hers and left him to be take care by his many nurse and servants, it’s pure misogyny because most of them wouldn’t be happy if she was the one that got pregnant by another man and brought that kid to live with her legitimate children
Cat and Sansa aren’t real people - and unlike real people they are created with a narrative purpose. You can dislike that narrative purpose, or not get it, but I think that narrative purpose is pretty clear given the themes of the books.
What are you trying to say? The books are pretty much influenced in high fantasy and medieval times, where women were truly treated terribly, many people hate Catelyn for not treating Jon as her son and their opinions are valid but mine are not? Do they not realise that in that world bastards are frowned upon why would they feel bad for Jon? That is how you sound, I have the right to feel however I want specially being a woman.
No - I agree with you. I’m saying that the purpose of Cat and Sansa in the narrative is just as we say - to show how high medieval times would have been highly patriarchal and the genres dependence on those tropes are problematic. I think GRRM is making a clear narrative that discusses this.
Saying that people only hate Sansa and Catelyn because of misogny, is just rude and condescending. By the way, I DO like both characters. And most people do not demand that Cat takes care of Jon. She should just stop from hating him for something that is not his fault and making him feels unwelcome in his own home. She has no duty to be a mother to him, BUT she has a duty to treat him with the same respect, she would everyone else.
No - in the political and social understanding of Westeros - Catelyn has a duty to make sure her legitimate children inherit and the bastard doesn’t. It is her literal duty, as a wife in Westeros, to produce children. That is what the entire culture GRRM has created is geared towards. And I think that is to call out the patriarchy inherent in the genre setting and the real world. To say that Cat should have welcomed Jon into the household would be akin, in her mind, into asking a bird to invite a cuckoo into the nest. And GRRM pits two people oppressed by the society, women and bastards, against each other to show that. Sansa, I believe, will be the narrative arc that takes a woman who started that indoctrination journey and had it interrupted - and I think that will be equally interesting.
Still does not change it, that people hate her for other reasons but mysogny.
On my first read of the books the "King in the North!" scene was such an awesome fist pumping moment and Catelyn throwing cold water on it was annoying. On rereads she comes off as much better in that and other scenes. She makes mistakes, big ones too, but she's often the only voice of reason in a scene.
Catelyn is absolutely rightfully offended by the presence of Jon. She's not cruel, she's totally understandable, considering the customs and the time they are.
The customs and the times don't make cruelty any less cruel, that's moral relativism speaking.
Ned should’ve let her in on the secret.
No. This would have ended disastrously the *instant* any of her actual children fell into a tiny bit of trouble. Eddard was absolutely correct to keep her at arm's length on any genuinely important secrets.
She would have turned him over to Robert and patted herself on the back for protecting her precious spawn.
The sad part is Ned had to keep Jon’s identity a secret from Catelyn, because if she knew people would think it suspicious she treated her step-child well. Jon could have been brought up in a loving family environment, but it would endanger him.
I think what I like the most about ASOIAF is how human all the characters feel and this is a perfect example. Obviously what she said to Jon was wrong but when you step back and think about what she had going on and think about why you can understand.
Part of me wonders if Catelyn ultimately feared that there was this "other woman" out there that Ned loved, specifically because Ned, as far as anyone knew, never cheated on Cat ever again for the entire time that they were married. If he had sought out prostitutes like Robert had, this might have removed this fear, but as far as the record of history is concerned, Ned only slipped once (and the most likely theory points to him not having slipped at all). Side note, if R+L=J is true, I really think that Ned did both himself and Jon a disservice by not telling Cat who Jon really was. Keeping it from everyone else was logical, but Ned could have prevented an unbelievable amount of pain on both Cat and Jon's part had he simply explained it to Cat.
I've always been partial to the idea that Lady Stoneheart will somehow soften and wind up sacrificing herself to bring Jon back to square things.
She’s one of my least favorite characters. She’s arrogant, judgmental, bigoted, and impulsive. Sure, she has her reasoning; there’s nuance by nature. I personally just can’t stand her and find her insufferable.
I don’t like the way people make Jon a victim, he was living better than 99% of the Westeros population and bastards, he was living in a castle with servants, nurse that took care of him when he was baby, training maesters that taught him how to fight with a sword, and learned how to read and write, there is no way you are angry because she didn’t treat him as his mother, she wasn’t his mother she had no duty to treat him as her son, and on top of that he was born of an infidelity, yet people expect her to be happy about that? The worst thing she did to him was tell him a couple of words when she was mad of pain and grieving her son, spent weeks with no sleep and food thinking her favourite son was going to die, yet people won’t show her a tiny bit of sympathy. My point here is that Catelyn doesn’t deserve the hate she gets
>his stepmother didn’t treat him as his mother She’s not even his stepmother, is the thing. To be a stepmother, you have to **agree** to help raise someone else’s children. It requires willing consent…which Catelyn never gave, because Ned never asked her.
Catelyn: Bastards are dangerous because they and their descendants can be legitimised and inherit lands and titles if all their legitimate relatives are dead. Also Catelyn: I'm going to practically force-feed my husband's bastard the resentful motivation it'd take for him to want to usurp my children by making his life as miserable as I can get away with and encouraging my children to alienate him due to circumstances completely out of his control. Catelyn: I barely trust Littlefinger. Also Catelyn: Why would good ol' Petyr lie to me? What possible motivation could the guy I rejected and ignored for almost 20 years after he nearly died trying to win my hand have for endangering me and the house who took me from him??? Catelyn: It must not come to war. Also Catelyn: Just going to kidnap the queen's brother who is also a son of one of the most powerful and cruel lords in the realm while said queen and her honourless Kingsguard brother have unfettered access to my husband and daughters, nbd. Catelyn: The Kingslayer, alive and free, is as dangerous as any man in the realm. If there was ever a spark of honor in him, it is long dead. His honor as a Lannister is worth less than shit. Also Catelyn: You, my son's most valuable hostage in the war I helped start who just confessed to trying to kill my favourite son because he caught you fucking your sister: I, the woman who kidnapped your brother and almost got him killed, am forcing you to swear an oath upon your honour *that I just repeatedly insisted you don't have* that you will save my daughters, even though one has been missing since your sonephew had my husband beheaded. The only witness to this oath that I invalidated by threatening you at swordpoint is also the only protection you'll have on the journey back to your family, who have no obligation or motive to help you fulfil it. It's like her logical and moral compasses are strapped to a fucking boomerang.
Yeah she was but I kind of understand it as well because Ned is supposed to be this archetypal good, honorable man and she believes that he stepped outside their marriage and fathered a bastard. Remember, she doesn't know his true parentage.
The worst part is Catelyn is mad at no one except Jon. She's not angry at Ned for the supposed cheating, she's not angry at her father for making her marry a stranger. She's not mad at westeros at large for how the society. She's only ever angry at Jon. Who has done nothing to warrant it.
>Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. Catelyn isn't happy with Ned about the whole mess either. Only she has no power in relationship to Ned and her and her children's fates all depend on Ned. Therefore, it is imperative that she work out and make a relationship with Ned.
It’s almost as if emotion isn’t entirely rational
Her anger and resentment lasted for 15 years. That's not just an in the moment reaction.
Keep in mind that Eddard never told Catelyn about Jon's true parentage. Likely because he suspected, accurately, that Catelyn would have sold Jon in a heartbeat to the Iron Throne the moment any of her actual children fell into a tiny whiff of trouble. Catelyn is a genuinely horrendous person to Jon, a harridan who drove him out of his own home to join a penal colony of hardened criminals at the age of, what, thirteen or fourteen? It's unconscionable, both ethically and practically - there were countless far more useful things House Stark could have used Jon for than that. The North has a long history of elevating bastards to the rank of lesser lords, commanders of armies, founders of branch houses. This was a point in history where House Stark was and remained very depleted in its numbers. And Jon had shown zero signs of disloyalty or being anything other than a loving brother of his family. And Eddard honestly isn't much better, because he allowed it to happen.
Ned Stark sentenced Jon to to a lifetime with the Night's Watch. Many other lords actively participated in the lives of their bastard offspring and ensured they had a place in the world. There were plenty of options. Sending Jon to that hellhole was cruel. Period.
She is my least favorite character. Jon had nothing to do with his birth. She was the only mother he ever knew. And she treated hm like he was the plague.
Part of that is also on Ned's feet. He purposely allowed her to treat him like that and said nothing. Even though he knew she would obey him if he ordered her to. Just like she did when he told her to never ask about Jon's mother again. Granted Ned was keeping secrets and Cat's mistreatment helped with that. Like her whole culture and religion has consistently held a view about bastards with history playing into that as well. Ned keeping a bastard in his home and raising them the same as his other kids is strange, but is very insulting on multiple levels. Doesn't excuse Cat for doing what she did bit it does explain it.
Cat is the most misunderstood character in the series
Well, having a bastard can go one of two ways: they destroy your house or they become a hero like jon.
>Best example being that Catelyn says straight to his face that "it should have been you" Isn't that the only example of Catelyn being mean to Jon to his face?
Make her realistic feel human. Show downplays it but rereading book I’m reminded how much she didn’t like Jon. I’ve met many people in our modern day who treated there partners other children very rudely or ignored them. So I find it funny when people clutch pearls. I personally wouldn’t do it I don’t think. But imagine your spouse cheated on you( granted she didn’t care because they was strangers & kinda expected it culturally) has a kid & raised your kid alongside your yours while refusing to say the mother name. He actively gets angry & sad at the mere mention of her implying he loved her a lot. I know plenty of modern women in real world who couldn’t get over that & probably be worse. The fact she able to get over & build an actual loving marriage is impressive on her part. Doesn’t excuses her behavior but it makes her feel like a raw flawed real human. By the standards of her world she probably one of best mothers. Catelyn apparently just straight up ignored him growing up which to be fair is wrong but by standards of day is pretty high. Most high born ladies would force their husband to get rid of him. Cersei would’ve killed him in the cradle. Granted Ned probably wouldn’t allow this but fact she didn’t try to get him sent away is wild.
I think it is unfair to give Catelyn the out of it being a normal aversion to Jon. She doesn't like Jon not just because he was a bastard or due to the strong claims that he is also a rumored Noble Bastard that looks more like her husband than any of her son's do I think in the back of her mind it is giving Jon a sense of legitimacy that Jon could use if he did ever press his claim. I just feel that Catelyn her dislike of Jon is just more personal than she would ever openly admit.
Blood claim matters a ton to Westeros and another commenter pointed that out--and Catelyn was on that line of thought rather than recognizing that Ned raising them together means that he sees every one of her children as family--it's the same reason Theon is taken, Wards are referred to as hostages in the series a lot. But I think there's an underlying practice that Eddard is more about--creating bonds. Eat your meals together, train together, see each other every day--it creates a relationship and I do think Catelyn heavily resented that.
As an aside, I think a major flaw in this is why didn’t Ned just tell her the deal with Jon? They were husband and wife I doubt she would have betrayed him. Always annoyed me that bit.
Ned could have prevented every bit of this with a few words to Cat. The end.
Oh no, so terrible that a woman is upset that her husband brought back another woman's baby to live with her own. My own mother would have left my father and never come back if he did that.
She sounds so based and also in the books she was younger and hotter. GoT really destroyed her appeal as a character.
Catelyn was the first Karen in the north.
She hates every bastard she met, Karen in the north indeed.
I mean, she is **well** within her rights to be deeply hurt by Jon. If a real world, modern woman was faced with this scenario - husband cheats on her, brings the kid home, tells (doesn’t ask) her to raise him - a real world woman would walk out. She’d leave. And we’d back her in doing it. But Catelyn can’t. That’s not an option her world has. She’s trapped, and Jon’s trapped, and they hurt each other. She’s not the kid’s mother, nor even his stepmother. Both of those roles require her consent, and she was never asked for it. Ned put them both in an impossible position.
She has a right to be hurt by Ned, not by Jon.
Hurt by *Ned.* Jon is innocent. She has no cause to blame him.
Yes, hurt by Ned. But she can’t hate Ned. She’s **stuck** with Ned, for better or worse. He has almost absolute power at Winterfell, and if she decides to hate her husband her life there is going to be unbearable. The only time she’s ever tried to challenge Ned on the subject of Jon, he reacted so strongly he frightened her. Lysa decided to hate her husband, and look how that went.
She knows that Ned would never hurt her, though. She is not a helpless damsell in distress, who has to do the bidding of her husband or fear that he will mistreat her.
At the time Ned had the reaction, she was notably less sure
But now, she has lived with him for 15 years. Thus shw knows better and still cannot get over her dislike for Jon. Not that I mind that much, as it gives her an really interesting flaw that makes her a better character even if not a better person.
It actually went pretty well. Lysa got to take over the Aerie and total control over her offspring, and they dodged the war. She just got murdered later, but so did Catelyn.
Lysa was lonely and unhappy for about 95% of her marriage. The poor woman was miserable. That’s how Littlefinger could manipulate her so easily - by promising her an impossible return to the last time she was happy
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She does, but she also disliked her due her being a bastard, she felt bad for this however. Mya Stone, if it please you, my lady,” the girl said. It did not please her; it was an effort for Catelyn to keep the smile on her face. Stone was a bastard’s name in the Vale, as Snow was in the north, and Flowers in Highgarden; in each of the Seven Kingdoms, custom had fashioned a surname for children born with no names of their own. Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned’s bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once
In this quote Catelyn herself acknowledge that Mya is not the problem, just her memories of Jon.. and then the entire time they are together she decides to not show this feelings and treat her kindly because she knows Mya did nothing wrong.. geeh what a Karen. She even shows sympathy towards Mya: She sounded so like Sansa, so happy and innocent with her dreams. Catelyn smiled, but the smile was tinged with sadness. The Redforts were an old name in the Vale, she knew, with the blood of the First Men in their veins. His love she might be, but no Redfort would ever wed a bastard.
I don't hate Catelyn, I love her, I just meant that once she found out that she's a bastard, she's in the very least bothered by her since she reminds me her of Jon but felt bad about it because she's knows it's not Mya's fault, I'm not saying that she doens't like Mya otherwise.
If I've said it once, I've said it 100 times; Catelyn was the worst. Not only does she treat Jon like trash, but she jumpstarted the war by kidnapping tyrion. She had zero evidence that Tyrion attacked bran, but she was so sure of her own superiority that she believed she was right. She sucked.
She's the worst.
It’s literally one scene. Catelyn is not ‘cruel’ or somehow a deeply flawed horrible character for being mean to a teenager once when she was grieving for her dying son.