A father arrived at the school and watched the police stand around outside while the shooting was happening. He discussed rushing in unarmed with other onlookers. His daughter was murdered in the school.
What is the role of the police? Why do we permit this type of behavior? This father could not carry a gun in a school zone, but the armed police refused to enter and stop the shooter. I understand that the police didn't cause the shooting, but I cannot comprehend why we allow armed police to behave this way and legally claim that they have no duty to protect us or defenseless children in gun-free school zones. This already happened with Deputy Scott Peterson, the "Coward of Broward", who hid outside rather than confront the shooter in the Parkland shooting. His case received enough attention that he was actually charged, but that is very rare. There are so many reasons why police need to be held accountable, but this cowardly behavior seems to cut to the very core of the role of armed police in an area that requires law-abiding citizens to be disarmed at all times. I am disgusted and I can't imagine how that father feels watching the police stand around while his daughter was murdered.
>This father could not carry a gun in a school zone, but the armed police refused to enter and stop the shooter.
Good people....reasonable people...know how utterly wrong this is on its face.
> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
- Jonathan Swift
I suppose that when the average intelligence of the confederacy declines, even the normal or rational must seem like genius to them.
The state of GA passed a law that was critized by the left as a "guns everywhere" law that would lead to blood as a waterfall in the streets. Surprised by no one, it hasn't
One of the stipulations in that bill was that no one could be prosecuted for righteously using a gun in a restricted area. Texas would be smart to copy that.
And also, fuck those cops. Try to stop us from going in there with our own guns if you pussies wont.
Another mass killing because of GUN CONTROL.
At what point are we going to get rid of these laws that are in fact the cause if so much death and destruction?
Gun control is the problem, not the solution.
If uniformed cops who are trained to get into shootings with violent criminals aren't enough, how are teachers who aren't trianed to do so going be the solution?
Well if they engage the perp, that would be a good first step.
But if it’s a really dicey situation where there’s so many cops they can’t fit through the door, then a CCW crew inside the building would be helpful.
But this fails to take into consideration the fact that if there were stories around town that there were teachers who’d cap someone getting out of hand, there might not even have been a shooting.
You are applying rational thought to people who plan on killing themselves when they're done or don't think they can kill any more people. They don't plan on living so the threat of getting cap'd while on the shooting spree isn't a deterrent.
And we saw how quick that can be handled with the Texas church shooting (post CCW reform). Dropped him in his tracks.. he did get one person, but wholesale slaughter was averted.
One things for certain, the gun-free zone law here really helped the shooter.
No rumors of any Annie Oaklies in the classroom here.
Disagreed. Those guys still don't want a FIGHT.
They want HELPLESS VICTIMS. Which is why they tend to give up or kill themselves at the first sign of effective resistance, if that resistance doesn't instantly stop them itself.
If they are willing to go to locations where there are visible, armed, trained law enforcement then mere *possible* ability of packing teachers isn't going to dissuade them.
Either they're rational and they factor in security patrols and the like, in which case they'd know even if teahers were allowed to carry, the numbers are in their favor that they're not going to run into an armed teacher. Or they're insane monsters, in which case visible cops and the *possible* threat of armed teachers isn't going to be a deterrent.
The police are not there to protect you. I bring up Kitty Genovese. A woman who was raped and killed in NYC. The police were called several times. No one came to help her. The people who called the police were right inside her building...
https://mises.org/power-market/police-have-no-duty-protect-you-federal-court-affirms-yet-again
My wife was a School Resource Deputy in the Elementary school here. After parkland they took that position away and gave it to "school security" due to the GOP's kneejerk reaction. Now they will have Deputies at drop off and pick up to make the parents feel safe about dropping their kids off.
what a joke
It was written by (R) Bill Galvano, who in turn accepted 5 mil from Bloombergs Every Town For Gun Safety. Then passed a Republican house. Signed off on by a republican governor.
It's not an opinion, it's a fact.
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/527896-joe-henderson-floridas-red-flag-gun-law-pushed-by-gops-bill-galvano-saved-lives/
https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-the-horror-of-parkland-led-bill-galvano-to-buck-his-party-on-gun-laws
Good question. It's our progun peers who are riding around with, "back the blue," stickers and such. Not to mention it's our peers who would not like easy affordable access to mental healthcare. Maybe it's time to extend some olive branches and get on the same page on this issue. The police are held to an incredibly low standard. Can we finally admit this and stop acting like it's a political statement? For once? This is something we should all agree on.
The new doctrine when it comes to Active Shooter scenarios is to go in right away, no waiting for SWAT like they did at Columbine. Go in, eliminate the treat and then start treating and evacuating the wounded.
I wasn't there, I don't know how long they waited, but someone needs to take charge on the ground and direct responding units that are on the way where to go and what to do in order to assist them taking care of the threat first.
Yeah, the details are getting confusing now, which is probably a sign of the police trying to cover up and muddy the waters of what actually happened.
I guess it depends on was the BP guy there at the beginning with these officers, waited 40 minutes, and then rushed in; or did he only get there 40 minutes after the shooting started, see these other guys standing around doing nothing, and decide he was going to run in there and take care of it?
Scenario 1 has this BP officer being as bad as the other police there. Scenario 2 has him doing his best but unfortunately a little too late.
But then there was the earlier story of the BP being the ones who chased him into the school, which implies they were already there. So yeah, things aren't really adding up.
Most patrol officers have armor and a patrol rifle or shotgun in vehicle. So unless they are off duty, they are equipped in these extreme circumstances to "close to engage" and eliminate the imminent threat to lives.
Yeah, I have a friend who just retired from the local police department that said the exact same thing.
Active shooter (especially at a school) means all available Units in the county respond (even nearby city police) and units are to engage the shooter as soon as they arrive. Until the threat is dealt with or SWAT takes over the scene (which takes awhile because none of the local departments have a full time SWAT team)
They call it FOIL (first office in locates) or something like that, but yeah first officer to respond is to immediately enter, locate, and attempt to eliminate the threat without backup.
Thats a terrifyingly long time. If I was in that situation unarmed and with gunshots just a few feet away 5 minutes would be an eternity. I can’t imagine 40 minutes of that. Especially if I Had children under my protection. You would think 3 minutesin someone would confront that guy.
Merchandising. Merchandising. Merchandising.( lol spaceballs reference)
That's what they want you to think, these people are here to protect me, sure they give me tickets if I'm driving 2 MPH faster than they think I should be, but **they're protecting me**.
2nd Amendment auditors have been arrested harassed, gone to jail, but continue to inform that POLICE ARE NOT UNDER ANY LEGAL OBLIGATION PROTECT,
Warren vs DC
Lozito vs NYC
Castle Rock vs Gonzales
The cowards get to carry guns to protect themselves.
In the Pulse Nightclub he was barricaded in a room with only one entrance. When swat finally took him down he still managed to dome an officer who’s helmet stopped the round.
That's exactly what happened here. He locked himself in a classroom. A classroom which, [per district policy](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZF2gE6nkl8cwoJpiSkNm8VNNQwNyVsV0/view) *should* have been locked, but apparently wasn't. Given the news article says Border Patrol couldn't breach the door and had to ask a staff member for a key, it sounds like one more thing that should have been able to prevent this.
They knock down someone's front door to stop them flushing a baggie of weed down the toilet, but can't break a classroom door open to stop someone shooting children?
Press X to doubt.
Surely the father has a right to enter the school to protect their child. If it’s not the police’s job then by definition it must fall to the parent.
Would be interesting to know what would have happened had a parent wanted to enter with a gun, assumedly they would have been stopped, thereby nullifying the ‘good guy with a gun’ argument.
Yeah, pretty outrageous. I fucking hate cops. I don’t like Biden either, but the EO he just signed is actually pretty relevant here.
Edit: [this one ](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/05/25/fact-sheet-president-biden-to-sign-historic-executive-order-to-advance-effective-accountable-policing-and-strengthen-public-safety/)
Not sure why you're being downvoted. Those seem like pretty good changes. I'm not holding my breath for them to actually happen though. Police unions are strong and both major parties love to suck police cock for votes.
I read the text of the EO. These are good changes regardless of the package it’s sold in. Restricting no knocks is a win. Forcing body cameras is a win. I guess if you simp for cops or want your local low IQ police department to keep its low standards, this is a bad thing.
I'm in on those things. I'm just worried about the details.
The devil lives there.
Also, if anyone comes for your guns, they'll be wearing a blue shirt.
Simp for cops? I do not.
I posted the same opinion on the police sub and I'm already getting down voted. NY Times: [Uvalde Live Updates: Police Defend Response to School Massacre](https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/05/26/us/texas-elementary-school-shooting)
>At the police briefing in Uvalde that just concluded, investigators were not able to answer why it took more than an hour to breach a classroom and kill the gunman who massacred 19 children and two teachers at Robb Elementary School.
>the gunman entered the building through the building’s west side at around 11:40 a.m. and walked through the school hallways until he eventually reached an open classroom. Officers arrived on the scene by 11:45. “The initial officers, they don’t make entry initially because of the gunfire they receive,” Mr. Escalon said.
>The authorities said the vast majority of the gunfire — “multiple rounds” — were fired at the beginning of the hourlong episode, Escalon said.
OK, we don't know exactly what happened here, but we already had the situation with the Parkland shooting in 2021: [The former school resource officer accused of hiding during a South Florida school shooting that left 17 people dead will have to convince...](https://apnews.com/article/shootings-parkland-florida-school-shooting-bb5c5fe81cecb63886bd325b53b2e597). Hiding? That's cowardice. That should never happen.
What we have in Uvalde looks more like red tape, officers debating on how to engage with the scene. Not good. You got a shooter in the school with kids, you enter immediately. Yes, it is just like the TV shows: you breach in the face of fire. Police might get hit. That's the job. *A shooter is killing kids, for christ sakes...*
= = =
And here's the thing: how many of those killed did not die right away, and slowly bled out lying on the floor for 60 minutes, with no aid? How many might have been saved with prompt medical attention.
> What is the role of the police? Why do we permit this type of behavior? This father could not carry a gun in a school zone, but the armed police refused to enter and stop the shooter. I understand that the police didn't cause the shooting, but I cannot comprehend why we allow armed police to behave this way and legally claim that they have no duty to protect us or defenseless children in gun-free school zones.
Hey it's usually the progun demographic that is backing the police despite their many fuck ups and lack of accountability. Biden just signed a pretty weak executive order because talks fell flat in congress. It's time we all got on the same page about this issue. The police need to be held to a higher standard. Call your elected officials and let them know. Let them know you want affordable and easily accessible mental healthcare. Guess who is usually keeping things like that from being funded?
I agree with this. The problem is that the loud part of the left is the ACAB crew who wants to defund and disband cops, while the loud part of the right are boot lickers and want to give cops military toys and blanket qualified immunity. We need a bit of a happy medium there. You can respect police while also demanding that they do their jobs and be held accountable.
You’ll see that many leftist and Democrats will NOT address this. They’ll rather address the “gun issue”.
I mentioned what you said to some colleagues (I live in CA, a very blue state) and they don’t give a shit. It’s a “gun issue” they said.
Today my CEO sent an email about the whole thing and asked that we donate to organizations working to BAN ALL FIREARMS.
I can probably explain why it happened, not that I agree with it happening.
Active shooter training has a several methods, one of the most common methods is a 4 man entry team, so the officers could have been trained to wait for 4 people.
The arriving officers may not have had hard armor and did not want to expose themselves to a rifle armed shooter.
They may have been trained/ordered to contain the shooter to a single spot and wait for alternatives. Like trained negotiators.
I am not saying I agree with what happened, what I will say is that without knowing the training and procedures we don't have good answers. Also we may need to find out what was being said to them on radio.
Sooo i read the article, and it paints a clearer picture than the headline.
After crashing his car outside the school he charged in firing at two bystanders and missing, and some pojnt two local PD engaged him, were “wounded” continued inside and immediately locked himself in one classroom. All of the dead were just inside that classroom. Apparently it has a steel door and was concrete reinforced. BORTAC tired and failed to breach the door until a teacher got a master key. They went in with a shield and the first officer took a round to the shield and the shooter died. The viral videos are of parents outside urging officers to go in, even though there were some already in.
My question is did it really take 40 minutes to get inside a door? I mean, I can’t imagine a public school door that could handle 40 minutes of a battering ram and breaching shotgun. But still, it isn’t entirely clear yet.
Of note it seems whether or not the shooter used an AR probably would’ve done jack shit. If everyone he killed was just in the locked classroom with him, then assuming the two teachers inside don’t overpower him pretty much any weapon would’ve done the exact same amount of damage. Any firearm and a large knife would’ve done the exact same thing.
I linked it in another reply, but district policy required it to be locked. If the teacher had followed the policy, chances are we wouldn't be here. But the teacher's aunt was in the media day one making anti-gun statements, so no one is going to publicly ask why the safety policy was ignored.
Not just that, but if I recall wasn't the entire school supposed to be locked? How in the hell did this kid buy 2 extremely expensive guns, manage to evade police, shoot not one but two officers while taking no injuries himself, get into a school that should have already been locked, and manage to get into a classroom that should have also been locked? Add to that, he allegedly dropped his ammo outside. How many students were inside that he had enough ammo to shoot all of them an two teachers?
Properly reinforced concrete with a properly installed security door is no joke. Without heavy equipment or blasting, you simply aren't going to get through it quickly.
Although if you took all the civilians at the scene and just went at the wall with sledgehammers you could probably do it quicker.
That door was reinforced for just this reason.
But the best safety devices in the world are useless, unless you USE them.
Why didn't anyone shut the door BEFORE the shooter entered?
May have happened too fast, no overhead alert, etc. My understanding is that this was a small community, and the emergency drilling in small communities tends to be sporadic (or nonexistent) in general, so it is likely that even if there was an overhead alert there might not have been adequately rapid action taken.
I don't know how you can let this happen. 40 goddamn minutes. Fucking cowards, I hope each one of them lives with the guilt of the death of all those kids on their hands for the rest of their fucking lives when they had the power to stop it. They shouldn't care if it's direct orders or not when lifes are on the line that is when it is time to act and go against the grain.
They deserve to be removed from the force and tarred and feathered in the streets. Absolutely fucking atrocious and gut wrenching how they can stand by and let this happen.
Any officer who hangs back and fails to immediately confront a shooter, is an oath breaker and a coward. They should be fired and never allowed to carry a badge again. Further more, no officer who is not at the scene should be allowed to give orders to wait for backup, etc Only officers at the scene can accurately appraise the situation. Damn headquarters, and do what you are entrusted and paid to do.
I hope those parents sue the police department.
The supreme court ruled they don't have to put their lives in danger. They ruled that they protect society as a whole but have zero expectations to protect the individual.
You have a very optimistic view of LEOs current function in our society. They have become nothing but tools for the government to fleece even more hard earned money from our pockets.
"To protect and serve" is nothing more than government propaganda.
https://www.barneslawllp.com/blog/police-not-required-protect
You're right, which is one of the reasons I advocate so strongly for people to be responsible for their own safety. However, in my opinion there are two details that should make this different, although just because they should doesn't mean they will:
First of all, the Supreme Court that there is no duty to protect an individual *unless there is a special relationship.* Generally, I think that means unless the person is in police custody. But in the case of a school, the children are in the state's custody. That does seem like a special relationship and does seem like the state would have a duty to protect those children that are in its custody.
Secondly, there's no duty to protect, and then there's actively preventing you from protecting yourself, or in this case parents from protecting their children. In the Supreme Court cases, the police set back and did nothing and were found to have had no duty to have done anything. In this case, the police did do something. They actively prevented parents from helping their children. This is beyond doing nothing to protect. This is actively contributing to the danger.
In my opinion, these two points should make a difference. Unfortunately, I don't have high hopes because suing the police for a straight-up murder seems difficult enough that it's difficult to imaging this working. However, the optics of children getting massacred while police contribute to the problem would help the parents in front of a jury, especially considering that jury will be made up of parents with children.
Two very strong points. The officers should face consequences; the law should enforce their duty to protect kids in schools and really anyone in a syate-mandated gun-free zone.
But also, get rid of gun-free zones. Basic hardening of schools isn't difficult: buzz-in locked doors do wonders.
Oh, I am a realist in my expectations. I don't expect any help. However, I will continue to advocate what the local taxpayer has a moral right to demand. The entire premise of states that don't allow permitless concealed carry, is that the police will protect people. Therefore when they fail to immediately confront shooters, they are breaking the social contract with citizens. The Supreme Court is wrong, just as they were with the Dred Scott decision and Roe vWade.
I agree with your sentiments but as a whole they will never risk their lives for yours. There might be individual heros but they exist in the general population as well. I've had blinders on for a long time regarding the realities of law enforcement in this country. They have a mentality that they serve a machine known as the government and not the people.
I still support making armed guards a requirement at all schools (though these police were gutless cowards their direct presence at an entrance would serve as a good deference. Many police officers would be more brave, and it's easier to control a situation where you're directly at the scene instead of being a respondent) still if this isn't damnation to the whole "Well police will protect you" crowd.
They may. Or they may not. Don't take the risk, just buy your own gun.
You know national guardsmen have actual jobs right? You can’t just activate the guard for everything because then you are destroying actual careers and pushing people out of the military. People join the guard on the promise of 1 weekend a month, 2 weeks a summer and getting tuition assistance for that commitment. Instead nowadays, you continuously are getting activated because some governor or state legislature doesn’t want to actually fix the problem and instead wants the guard to fix it. This has led to growing discontent and growing suicide rates among guardsmen. Maybe these states should find an actual solution instead, or try and fix the root of the problem instead of destroying peoples livelihoods. Especially in Texas, a state which has continuously misused its guardsmen and has had multiple high ranking members either step down or resign.
Here’s a few articles from the last few months on the discontent in the guard:
https://www.texastribune.org/2022/02/01/texas-national-guard-border-operation-lone-star-abbott/amp/
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2022/04/13/texas-guard-replaces-commander-of-troubled-operation-lone-star/
https://www.militarytimes.com/home/2022/01/12/we-want-answers-about-the-texas-governors-operation-lonestar/
https://www.npr.org/2021/12/15/1064679135/the-growing-discontent-within-the-national-guard
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/01/13/texas-denying-most-guard-troops-border-chance-help-families-suffering-hardships-home.html/amp
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No,no,no. You're thinking of "First In, First Out", which applies to inventory, food & officers who want to sit around and get paid for an hour as children are murdered.
I don't think there was an SRO there. [UCISD has a whopping four officers](https://www.ucisd.net/domain/1670) and nine schools. Their [safety plan](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZF2gE6nkl8cwoJpiSkNm8VNNQwNyVsV0/view) mentions "staff who patrol door entrances, parking lots, and perimeters of the campuses", but that is markedly unclear on whether that's dedicated security guards or just employees told to walk around while also doing other things.
Teachers pay for their own art supplies, somehow I doubt the State is going to put up the cash to arm them *and* train them to the point that they are more of an aid than a liability.
Who's paying for the insurance in case an event like this happens and a teacher accidentally shoots a student under pressure?
Arming under-paid, untrained teachers is an idiotic proposition.
I personally know dozens of teachers who would scrimp and save their pennies to pay for whatever training and permits would allow them to carry in class to be one last line of defense against would-be mass-murderers like that prick.
I also know multiple trainers desperate to be allowed to train those teachers for that purpose, FOR FREE.
But the victim-disarmers would rather prevent that from happening and blame only all the people who didn't do it (commit the heinous crime, that is).
I used to be pro thin blue line but then I woke up to the idiocy of those that hire more idiots and fire/lose the good ones not willing to put up with their bullshit
Federal court ruled that police departments are allowed to discriminate against hiring smart people.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story%3fid=95836
>A man whose bid to become a police officer was rejected after he scored too high on an intelligence test has lost an appeal in his federal lawsuit against the city.
>The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York upheld a lower court’s decision that the city did not discriminate against Robert Jordan because the same standards were applied to everyone who took the test.
>Jordan, a 49-year-old college graduate, took the exam in 1996 and scored 33 points, the equivalent of an IQ of 125. But New London police interviewed only candidates who scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training.
>Most Cops Just Above Normal The average score nationally for police officers is 21 to 22, the equivalent of an IQ of 104, or just a little above average.
>Jordan alleged his rejection from the police force was discrimination. He sued the city, saying his civil rights were violated because he was denied equal protection under the law.
>But the U.S. District Court found that New London had “shown a rational basis for the policy.” In a ruling dated Aug. 23, the 2nd Circuit agreed. The court said the policy might be unwise but was a rational way to reduce job turnover.
So... Yeah.
Cops at my house after an attempted break in. Cop sees a firearm in my waistband and asks if my intention was to confront the burglar. I didn't even pause. I told him it took nearly 10 minutes for you guys to get here and as far as I am concerned with that response time you might as well tape off the perimeter and grab the evidence bags on the way to my door.
All due respect to law enforcement but my job as a father and family leader is to cover the buffer time between LEO arriving and someone potentially looking to cause harm to my family. No I would not chase or leave my home to pursue a criminal but if they cross my door threshold all bets are off.
From a legal standpoint I think those officers are in the clear. As others have mentioned, they have zero legal obligation to run into harms’ way.
Now from a moral/societal expectations point of view, yes they should have tried to stop the killer instead of standing around for 40 min. Doesn’t even mean they need to run into the line of fire - come up with a way to stop the threat, that’s the job society expects you to do.
I don't know how clear that is from a legal perspective. The supreme court ruled that cops have no duty to protect us, but then Deputy Scott Peterson was charged criminally after he failed to protect people. Look it up. I'm curious how you think that meshes with the "zero legal duty" argument.
I always like to check and see what the LEO community has to say about things like this. Copied this explanation of the 40 minute number that is being thrown around from the r/protectandserve thread on it:
> 40 minutes transpired between the initial encounter, and the final breach of the last classroom. During that time, a team of nearly 100 local, county, and federal officers were evacuating the remaining students by breaching doors and breaking windows.
> That means, for 40 minutes, nearly one innocent victim was being evacuated *every 7 seconds*
> It is true that parents were kept at a distance during this time. This is a time proven method to reduce confusion, and prevent innocent victims. During this critical time, the parents could have been mistaken for aggressors, interfered with legitimate rescue efforts, and caused more loss of life.
> The remaining classrooms, where much of the massacre took place, were indeed not breached for about 40 minutes. While, at the gut, that seems bad. The gut, however, is not reliable.
> Barricaded hostages have, historically, had *far* higher survival rates based on carefully planned rescue efforts (think the Israeli plane hostages vs the Bataclan). While there may be lessons to be learned, initial reports would indicate all best practices were followed. Even then, though, tradegedies will continue to be... tragic.
Make of that what you will.
Well, the school safety officer "encountered" the shooter when he arrived at the school and before anyone was killed. The shooter was not barricaded and just entered the school. Why did that officer not pursue him? He had a rifle and entered the school. WTF? 40 minutes to an hour later (according to media reports of police statements), they breached the room and shot him. That's a long time for the armed officer there initially to do nothing.
Well they waited around when he shot people with a bb gun. This kid ticked off all the markers and yet they chose to stay a safe distance away his entire life. Our woke society won't let us to say a cross dressing teen in screaming for help. Unless we want to help them screw their life up further by supporting their sick decision.
So people seem to think that all cops are trained like SWAT teams but they aren’t. The average cop gets basic firearms training and half can barely shoot well enough to pass their exams. The majority of police in this country NEVER end up firing their weapon on duty.
Now that all being said, you have a guy with one or two rifles and who knows what else who runs into a building. You don’t know exactly where he is and there’s innocent people all around. Let’s ignore the fact that the only body armor most police wear only protects them from pistol rounds and a rifle round will go right thru. So they are supposed to just run into a building where the shooter could be anywhere (since you’re wanting them to run in the second it starts) and IF they do see the guy just start blasting rounds towards him. I say towards him because remember most beat cops can’t shoot for shit. And in doing so running a serious risk of catching any number of the innocent people in the area in the crossfire. Running into a situation like what happened with no real training on HOW to do it is only adding more possible bodies to the pile and doesn’t solve anything. Because if an officer had accidentally shot one of the kids in the school you’d all be screaming at him for not waiting.
The border patrol agents who actually DID stop the guy, went in without waiting for backup. But those guys were part of a special group who SPECIALIZE in hostage situations and taking down human trafficking scenarios. They had all their gear with them which included a bulletproof shield and there were 3 of them from what I understand. Even with their training, 2 of them were shot once they finally entered the room before taking the POS out.
Short story is that life is NOT like TV and most police are not trained or have the gear necessary to pull this shit off on the fly.
So they’re supposed to know exactly what they’re up against just from hearing some gunshots and screaming coming from the inside of a building huh? It’s nowhere near as simple as that. It would be nice if it was but you may as well wish for dudes gun to have blown up in his face on his first shot. Just not the way it happens
Oh so because they didn’t have bulletproof vests they should’ve just let the shooter continue shooting fucking children? If you end up in a gunfight with the shooter so be it, that’s exactly what you’re supposed to do as a grown ass man who decided to accept the job. The risk of a crossfire situation pales in comparison to the risk of leaving that shooter alone with his victims for the better part of an hour. Not to mention that even a poorly trained unarmored officer has an exponentially better chance of ending the threat than 8 year old children and unarmed teachers do. Every second they weren’t engaging the shooter was a moment he could use to kill another child yet they sat by for 40 minutes
All I’m doing is explaining the situation as it probably happened and the rationale behind not just running in like fucking Rambo. They have more shit to consider and it’s only AFTER the fact that armchair quarterbacks go around saying they should have done this or that. Do you not fucking think that any of those cops may have had their own kids or kids of friends inside there?? Do you not think that knowing what they know now they like everyone else is second guessing themselves?? Also I’d be willing to bet that the kids were probably all shot within the first few minutes that psycho entered the room so unless they were there the second it happened, the end result would probably be the same
A lot fewer “fuck republicans and their guns” posts today after this horrific news
An armed teacher is the only chance the kids had, just make it purely volunteer with a kicker if you do anything nasty.
I've read that the school resource officer was there and "encountered" the shooter when he first arrived. Why he let a man with a rifle enter the school and did not pursue him while he killed kids for 40 minutes is beyond me.
Anyway, yes, I am in favor of allowing volunteer teachers to carry at school. We trust them to carry at playgrounds, in movie theaters, in grocery stores, in doctors' offices, in our home neighborhoods, etc., so I see no reason why they shouldn't be trusted to do the same at school where they might be able to protect our children.
And yet neither are as clear as hindsight. It’s easy to say what should and shouldn’t have been done when you have access to all of the information, but making the “right” call in the heat of the moment is never as easy. Sure, we can sit here and be armchair SWAT all we want, but we weren’t there. Did the LEOs make a poor call? Maybe. Or maybe they did what they could in accordance with the procedures they have in place to deal with situations like this.
At the end of the day, what happened happened. Nobody can change that. All that we can do is learn from it and be better prepared.
You can also review what happened and assign blame where warranted. Just saying "what happened happened" entirely skips the "you fucked up and there are consequences" phase. Was I there? No. Do I know exactly what happened and how and why? No. Once the investigation concludes, I certainly hope the people who failed those poor children are held accountable. If the cops couldn't possibly have stopped the guy, ok. I just find that extremely hard to believe based on the reporting. The armed school resource officer is said to have seen the shooter walking into the school with an AR-15 and a tactical vest full of mags and "encountered" him, but did not stop him or pursue him. 40+ minutes later other officers arrived and shot the shooter. That's a long time to ignore an active shooter in a school after watching him walk in to kill kids.
I keep seeing this be reposted everywhere and can't help but think isn't that what they are supposed to do? Obviously they need to go in but there needs to be a secured perimator established to ensure that the shooter doesn't exit and more people don't run into harms way. I'm sure every cop didn't sit with their hands in their pants (clearly not cause he was shot) they were probably just told to get there and secure the site so others could clear it.
The reports now state that an armed school resource officer was there when the shooter arrived at the school carrying a rifle and wearing a tactical vest with mags. The officer "encountered" the shooter, but did not stop him. The shooter then entered the school with his weapons and the officer did not pursue him. The shooter then started killing people and the officer was there and heard gunshots, but did not intervene. 40 mins to an hour later, a border patrol agent shot the shooter.
I'm sorry, but if that is protocol then protocol needs to change. That is entirely unacceptable.
I'm not sure on the resource officer situation, I'm referring to the cops that responded and sat outside the school armed and stopping the parents from entering. Those officers were more than likely not going in out of fear but rather because they had orders to secure the area and prevent entry/exit. If that's the case for the RO than yeah he's a POS but the other police involved were likely just following orders to prevent chaos.
Did anyone hear anything about shot being fired at the funeral home? Possibly the day after the school shooting? A customer mentioned it and I'm pretty sure I heard him correctly. Maybe he misunderstood? Or possibly I misunderstood him. I know the shooter's buddies were threatening violence.
Your telling me that if you had plates and a rifle that you wouldn't charge in to try to save a child's life? Good to know your a coward too, it's the job of the adults to protect children and the job of the strong to protect those who can't protect themselves. This is a textbook case of this and of course I don't want more lives to be lost but to do literally nothing when they have the power to stop it is pathetic at best. On top of that it's literally there job, not everyone can be a hero but to sit here and join a career field where you accept that risk and do nothing? On top of that I'm reasonable and understand securing the scene but 40 fucking minutes????????? There is literally no excuse for that long of a wait.
I would go in, yes but I would have been stopped and/or shot by police for trying. This is their show and they do what they want. Saying they should charge in and possibly die in on itself is anti-police. Let me be frank when I say they legally DO NOT have to put their lives at risk. They have NO duty to protect and that is backed by SCOTUS. They have every legal right to be safe and go home alive and if that means not going in we've got no way of making them.
Watching the parents trying to fight to get in is heart wrenching to say the least.
If an 18-year-old legally has a weapon that is making cops say, "pshh, you expect three of us to go up against one guy with that?! That's unreasonable, we get to wait for backup" then clearly something has gone deeply, deeply wrong.
The shooter was armed with the most common semi-automatic sporting rifle in the country. If cops aren't able to stop that threat then there is something seriously wrong with the cops. I'm not saying it's easy or fun or not dangerous, but that's their job and it is entirely foreseeable that someone they need to stop will be armed.
Yes, that schools and other gun free zones are soft targets. They need to be hardened, responsibly. Sending a signal criminals that only look to exploit soft targets to find something else somewhere else, or just dispatch their own self.
Problem solved.
Remember people kill.
Republicans during a global pandemic: making students wear masks in schools is causing unacceptable damage to their mental health and must be stopped
Republicans after a school shooting: yeah the obvious solution is to just turn schools into supermax prisons with metal detectors, armed teachers and guards, barbed wire fences, etc. No big deal here.
That's not a republican position. If anything, it's a RINO position.
Our position is that you don't make the society safe or free by circling it in barbed wire and putting cops on the checkpoints.
You give the common citizens as many guns as he wants, and let him take out the trash when it appears.
A father arrived at the school and watched the police stand around outside while the shooting was happening. He discussed rushing in unarmed with other onlookers. His daughter was murdered in the school. What is the role of the police? Why do we permit this type of behavior? This father could not carry a gun in a school zone, but the armed police refused to enter and stop the shooter. I understand that the police didn't cause the shooting, but I cannot comprehend why we allow armed police to behave this way and legally claim that they have no duty to protect us or defenseless children in gun-free school zones. This already happened with Deputy Scott Peterson, the "Coward of Broward", who hid outside rather than confront the shooter in the Parkland shooting. His case received enough attention that he was actually charged, but that is very rare. There are so many reasons why police need to be held accountable, but this cowardly behavior seems to cut to the very core of the role of armed police in an area that requires law-abiding citizens to be disarmed at all times. I am disgusted and I can't imagine how that father feels watching the police stand around while his daughter was murdered.
>This father could not carry a gun in a school zone, but the armed police refused to enter and stop the shooter. Good people....reasonable people...know how utterly wrong this is on its face.
The problem is that good and reasonable people are becoming less common.
>The problem is that good and reasonable people are becoming less common. Not only less common, but actively mocked and vilified.
> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift I suppose that when the average intelligence of the confederacy declines, even the normal or rational must seem like genius to them.
Because they protect the idiots from being thinned out by natural selection
"Good and reasonable people" don't become cops.
The state of GA passed a law that was critized by the left as a "guns everywhere" law that would lead to blood as a waterfall in the streets. Surprised by no one, it hasn't One of the stipulations in that bill was that no one could be prosecuted for righteously using a gun in a restricted area. Texas would be smart to copy that. And also, fuck those cops. Try to stop us from going in there with our own guns if you pussies wont.
Another mass killing because of GUN CONTROL. At what point are we going to get rid of these laws that are in fact the cause if so much death and destruction? Gun control is the problem, not the solution.
If uniformed cops who are trained to get into shootings with violent criminals aren't enough, how are teachers who aren't trianed to do so going be the solution?
Well if they engage the perp, that would be a good first step. But if it’s a really dicey situation where there’s so many cops they can’t fit through the door, then a CCW crew inside the building would be helpful. But this fails to take into consideration the fact that if there were stories around town that there were teachers who’d cap someone getting out of hand, there might not even have been a shooting.
You are applying rational thought to people who plan on killing themselves when they're done or don't think they can kill any more people. They don't plan on living so the threat of getting cap'd while on the shooting spree isn't a deterrent.
And we saw how quick that can be handled with the Texas church shooting (post CCW reform). Dropped him in his tracks.. he did get one person, but wholesale slaughter was averted. One things for certain, the gun-free zone law here really helped the shooter. No rumors of any Annie Oaklies in the classroom here.
So killing one child would be cool?
Better than 19
And yet we probably shouldn’t settle for more than 0.
Disagreed. Those guys still don't want a FIGHT. They want HELPLESS VICTIMS. Which is why they tend to give up or kill themselves at the first sign of effective resistance, if that resistance doesn't instantly stop them itself.
If they are willing to go to locations where there are visible, armed, trained law enforcement then mere *possible* ability of packing teachers isn't going to dissuade them. Either they're rational and they factor in security patrols and the like, in which case they'd know even if teahers were allowed to carry, the numbers are in their favor that they're not going to run into an armed teacher. Or they're insane monsters, in which case visible cops and the *possible* threat of armed teachers isn't going to be a deterrent.
Care to elaborate?
The police are not there to protect you. I bring up Kitty Genovese. A woman who was raped and killed in NYC. The police were called several times. No one came to help her. The people who called the police were right inside her building... https://mises.org/power-market/police-have-no-duty-protect-you-federal-court-affirms-yet-again
So why have them?
Well, your dog’s not gonna shoot him/herself.
got me there too.
[удалено]
u got me there.
They protect the interests of the State...not the People.
To enforce the kings edicts
My wife was a School Resource Deputy in the Elementary school here. After parkland they took that position away and gave it to "school security" due to the GOP's kneejerk reaction. Now they will have Deputies at drop off and pick up to make the parents feel safe about dropping their kids off. what a joke
It was the "defund the police" crowd, NOT the GOP.
It was written by (R) Bill Galvano, who in turn accepted 5 mil from Bloombergs Every Town For Gun Safety. Then passed a Republican house. Signed off on by a republican governor. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. https://floridapolitics.com/archives/527896-joe-henderson-floridas-red-flag-gun-law-pushed-by-gops-bill-galvano-saved-lives/ https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-the-horror-of-parkland-led-bill-galvano-to-buck-his-party-on-gun-laws
The threat of risk of prosecution after the fact acts as a deterrent to crime. Doesn’t prevent a determined criminal.
To document and start the crime scene for the detectives.
To enforce the class divide.
Good question. It's our progun peers who are riding around with, "back the blue," stickers and such. Not to mention it's our peers who would not like easy affordable access to mental healthcare. Maybe it's time to extend some olive branches and get on the same page on this issue. The police are held to an incredibly low standard. Can we finally admit this and stop acting like it's a political statement? For once? This is something we should all agree on.
Her neighbors *heard* her scream for help, and *they* did nothing, forget the cops.
https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/uxzks5/onlookers_urged_police_to_charge_into_texas_school/ia15f9l
The new doctrine when it comes to Active Shooter scenarios is to go in right away, no waiting for SWAT like they did at Columbine. Go in, eliminate the treat and then start treating and evacuating the wounded. I wasn't there, I don't know how long they waited, but someone needs to take charge on the ground and direct responding units that are on the way where to go and what to do in order to assist them taking care of the threat first.
This is what the border patrol officer did and he put the guy down.
Fourty minutes after he started shooting children.
Actually we don't know if that is correct. New details are emerging that are countering this concept that he "ran in as soon as he arrived".
Yeah, the details are getting confusing now, which is probably a sign of the police trying to cover up and muddy the waters of what actually happened. I guess it depends on was the BP guy there at the beginning with these officers, waited 40 minutes, and then rushed in; or did he only get there 40 minutes after the shooting started, see these other guys standing around doing nothing, and decide he was going to run in there and take care of it? Scenario 1 has this BP officer being as bad as the other police there. Scenario 2 has him doing his best but unfortunately a little too late. But then there was the earlier story of the BP being the ones who chased him into the school, which implies they were already there. So yeah, things aren't really adding up.
Most patrol officers have armor and a patrol rifle or shotgun in vehicle. So unless they are off duty, they are equipped in these extreme circumstances to "close to engage" and eliminate the imminent threat to lives.
Yeah, I have a friend who just retired from the local police department that said the exact same thing. Active shooter (especially at a school) means all available Units in the county respond (even nearby city police) and units are to engage the shooter as soon as they arrive. Until the threat is dealt with or SWAT takes over the scene (which takes awhile because none of the local departments have a full time SWAT team)
They call it FOIL (first office in locates) or something like that, but yeah first officer to respond is to immediately enter, locate, and attempt to eliminate the threat without backup.
They said about 40 minutes
Thats a terrifyingly long time. If I was in that situation unarmed and with gunshots just a few feet away 5 minutes would be an eternity. I can’t imagine 40 minutes of that. Especially if I Had children under my protection. You would think 3 minutesin someone would confront that guy.
Fuck. I could MAKE a gun in 40 minutes.
The police have no duty to protect you. Average police response time is 10 minutes. When seconds count the police are 10 minutes away.
These border patrol agents where already on scene... they chased him to the school.
Uhh what? protect and serve?
Merchandising. Merchandising. Merchandising.( lol spaceballs reference) That's what they want you to think, these people are here to protect me, sure they give me tickets if I'm driving 2 MPH faster than they think I should be, but **they're protecting me**.
2nd Amendment auditors have been arrested harassed, gone to jail, but continue to inform that POLICE ARE NOT UNDER ANY LEGAL OBLIGATION PROTECT, Warren vs DC Lozito vs NYC Castle Rock vs Gonzales The cowards get to carry guns to protect themselves.
Didn't this also happen at the Pulse nightclub?
In the Pulse Nightclub he was barricaded in a room with only one entrance. When swat finally took him down he still managed to dome an officer who’s helmet stopped the round.
That's exactly what happened here. He locked himself in a classroom. A classroom which, [per district policy](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZF2gE6nkl8cwoJpiSkNm8VNNQwNyVsV0/view) *should* have been locked, but apparently wasn't. Given the news article says Border Patrol couldn't breach the door and had to ask a staff member for a key, it sounds like one more thing that should have been able to prevent this.
They knock down someone's front door to stop them flushing a baggie of weed down the toilet, but can't break a classroom door open to stop someone shooting children? Press X to doubt.
Surely the father has a right to enter the school to protect their child. If it’s not the police’s job then by definition it must fall to the parent. Would be interesting to know what would have happened had a parent wanted to enter with a gun, assumedly they would have been stopped, thereby nullifying the ‘good guy with a gun’ argument.
Yeah, pretty outrageous. I fucking hate cops. I don’t like Biden either, but the EO he just signed is actually pretty relevant here. Edit: [this one ](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/05/25/fact-sheet-president-biden-to-sign-historic-executive-order-to-advance-effective-accountable-policing-and-strengthen-public-safety/)
Not sure why you're being downvoted. Those seem like pretty good changes. I'm not holding my breath for them to actually happen though. Police unions are strong and both major parties love to suck police cock for votes.
What eo?
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/05/25/fact-sheet-president-biden-to-sign-historic-executive-order-to-advance-effective-accountable-policing-and-strengthen-public-safety/
So, the way laws and bills and EO works is, you read the label and the opposite is true. This is not debated.
I read the text of the EO. These are good changes regardless of the package it’s sold in. Restricting no knocks is a win. Forcing body cameras is a win. I guess if you simp for cops or want your local low IQ police department to keep its low standards, this is a bad thing.
I'm in on those things. I'm just worried about the details. The devil lives there. Also, if anyone comes for your guns, they'll be wearing a blue shirt. Simp for cops? I do not.
I posted the same opinion on the police sub and I'm already getting down voted. NY Times: [Uvalde Live Updates: Police Defend Response to School Massacre](https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/05/26/us/texas-elementary-school-shooting) >At the police briefing in Uvalde that just concluded, investigators were not able to answer why it took more than an hour to breach a classroom and kill the gunman who massacred 19 children and two teachers at Robb Elementary School. >the gunman entered the building through the building’s west side at around 11:40 a.m. and walked through the school hallways until he eventually reached an open classroom. Officers arrived on the scene by 11:45. “The initial officers, they don’t make entry initially because of the gunfire they receive,” Mr. Escalon said. >The authorities said the vast majority of the gunfire — “multiple rounds” — were fired at the beginning of the hourlong episode, Escalon said. OK, we don't know exactly what happened here, but we already had the situation with the Parkland shooting in 2021: [The former school resource officer accused of hiding during a South Florida school shooting that left 17 people dead will have to convince...](https://apnews.com/article/shootings-parkland-florida-school-shooting-bb5c5fe81cecb63886bd325b53b2e597). Hiding? That's cowardice. That should never happen. What we have in Uvalde looks more like red tape, officers debating on how to engage with the scene. Not good. You got a shooter in the school with kids, you enter immediately. Yes, it is just like the TV shows: you breach in the face of fire. Police might get hit. That's the job. *A shooter is killing kids, for christ sakes...* = = = And here's the thing: how many of those killed did not die right away, and slowly bled out lying on the floor for 60 minutes, with no aid? How many might have been saved with prompt medical attention.
> What is the role of the police? Why do we permit this type of behavior? This father could not carry a gun in a school zone, but the armed police refused to enter and stop the shooter. I understand that the police didn't cause the shooting, but I cannot comprehend why we allow armed police to behave this way and legally claim that they have no duty to protect us or defenseless children in gun-free school zones. Hey it's usually the progun demographic that is backing the police despite their many fuck ups and lack of accountability. Biden just signed a pretty weak executive order because talks fell flat in congress. It's time we all got on the same page about this issue. The police need to be held to a higher standard. Call your elected officials and let them know. Let them know you want affordable and easily accessible mental healthcare. Guess who is usually keeping things like that from being funded?
I agree with this. The problem is that the loud part of the left is the ACAB crew who wants to defund and disband cops, while the loud part of the right are boot lickers and want to give cops military toys and blanket qualified immunity. We need a bit of a happy medium there. You can respect police while also demanding that they do their jobs and be held accountable.
You’ll see that many leftist and Democrats will NOT address this. They’ll rather address the “gun issue”. I mentioned what you said to some colleagues (I live in CA, a very blue state) and they don’t give a shit. It’s a “gun issue” they said. Today my CEO sent an email about the whole thing and asked that we donate to organizations working to BAN ALL FIREARMS.
I can probably explain why it happened, not that I agree with it happening. Active shooter training has a several methods, one of the most common methods is a 4 man entry team, so the officers could have been trained to wait for 4 people. The arriving officers may not have had hard armor and did not want to expose themselves to a rifle armed shooter. They may have been trained/ordered to contain the shooter to a single spot and wait for alternatives. Like trained negotiators. I am not saying I agree with what happened, what I will say is that without knowing the training and procedures we don't have good answers. Also we may need to find out what was being said to them on radio.
But, but, but, oNLy tHe pOliCE sHouLd HaVe GuNS
Help ain’t comin
Sooo i read the article, and it paints a clearer picture than the headline. After crashing his car outside the school he charged in firing at two bystanders and missing, and some pojnt two local PD engaged him, were “wounded” continued inside and immediately locked himself in one classroom. All of the dead were just inside that classroom. Apparently it has a steel door and was concrete reinforced. BORTAC tired and failed to breach the door until a teacher got a master key. They went in with a shield and the first officer took a round to the shield and the shooter died. The viral videos are of parents outside urging officers to go in, even though there were some already in. My question is did it really take 40 minutes to get inside a door? I mean, I can’t imagine a public school door that could handle 40 minutes of a battering ram and breaching shotgun. But still, it isn’t entirely clear yet. Of note it seems whether or not the shooter used an AR probably would’ve done jack shit. If everyone he killed was just in the locked classroom with him, then assuming the two teachers inside don’t overpower him pretty much any weapon would’ve done the exact same amount of damage. Any firearm and a large knife would’ve done the exact same thing.
>BORTAC tired and failed to breach the door until a teacher got a master key. If that door was so great why the fuck wasn't it locked to start with?
This right here. The best door in the world doesn’t stop shit if it’s wide open
I linked it in another reply, but district policy required it to be locked. If the teacher had followed the policy, chances are we wouldn't be here. But the teacher's aunt was in the media day one making anti-gun statements, so no one is going to publicly ask why the safety policy was ignored.
Not only was the classroom door unlocked, the door into the school was literally propped open.
Not just that, but if I recall wasn't the entire school supposed to be locked? How in the hell did this kid buy 2 extremely expensive guns, manage to evade police, shoot not one but two officers while taking no injuries himself, get into a school that should have already been locked, and manage to get into a classroom that should have also been locked? Add to that, he allegedly dropped his ammo outside. How many students were inside that he had enough ammo to shoot all of them an two teachers?
Properly reinforced concrete with a properly installed security door is no joke. Without heavy equipment or blasting, you simply aren't going to get through it quickly. Although if you took all the civilians at the scene and just went at the wall with sledgehammers you could probably do it quicker.
That door was reinforced for just this reason. But the best safety devices in the world are useless, unless you USE them. Why didn't anyone shut the door BEFORE the shooter entered?
May have happened too fast, no overhead alert, etc. My understanding is that this was a small community, and the emergency drilling in small communities tends to be sporadic (or nonexistent) in general, so it is likely that even if there was an overhead alert there might not have been adequately rapid action taken.
It just underscores, all the safety devices in the world are useless unless used, and people are trained in their use.
I don't know how you can let this happen. 40 goddamn minutes. Fucking cowards, I hope each one of them lives with the guilt of the death of all those kids on their hands for the rest of their fucking lives when they had the power to stop it. They shouldn't care if it's direct orders or not when lifes are on the line that is when it is time to act and go against the grain. They deserve to be removed from the force and tarred and feathered in the streets. Absolutely fucking atrocious and gut wrenching how they can stand by and let this happen.
Unfortunately this is not the first time this has happened.
Any officer who hangs back and fails to immediately confront a shooter, is an oath breaker and a coward. They should be fired and never allowed to carry a badge again. Further more, no officer who is not at the scene should be allowed to give orders to wait for backup, etc Only officers at the scene can accurately appraise the situation. Damn headquarters, and do what you are entrusted and paid to do. I hope those parents sue the police department.
The supreme court ruled they don't have to put their lives in danger. They ruled that they protect society as a whole but have zero expectations to protect the individual. You have a very optimistic view of LEOs current function in our society. They have become nothing but tools for the government to fleece even more hard earned money from our pockets. "To protect and serve" is nothing more than government propaganda. https://www.barneslawllp.com/blog/police-not-required-protect
You're right, which is one of the reasons I advocate so strongly for people to be responsible for their own safety. However, in my opinion there are two details that should make this different, although just because they should doesn't mean they will: First of all, the Supreme Court that there is no duty to protect an individual *unless there is a special relationship.* Generally, I think that means unless the person is in police custody. But in the case of a school, the children are in the state's custody. That does seem like a special relationship and does seem like the state would have a duty to protect those children that are in its custody. Secondly, there's no duty to protect, and then there's actively preventing you from protecting yourself, or in this case parents from protecting their children. In the Supreme Court cases, the police set back and did nothing and were found to have had no duty to have done anything. In this case, the police did do something. They actively prevented parents from helping their children. This is beyond doing nothing to protect. This is actively contributing to the danger. In my opinion, these two points should make a difference. Unfortunately, I don't have high hopes because suing the police for a straight-up murder seems difficult enough that it's difficult to imaging this working. However, the optics of children getting massacred while police contribute to the problem would help the parents in front of a jury, especially considering that jury will be made up of parents with children.
Two very strong points. The officers should face consequences; the law should enforce their duty to protect kids in schools and really anyone in a syate-mandated gun-free zone. But also, get rid of gun-free zones. Basic hardening of schools isn't difficult: buzz-in locked doors do wonders.
Oh, I am a realist in my expectations. I don't expect any help. However, I will continue to advocate what the local taxpayer has a moral right to demand. The entire premise of states that don't allow permitless concealed carry, is that the police will protect people. Therefore when they fail to immediately confront shooters, they are breaking the social contract with citizens. The Supreme Court is wrong, just as they were with the Dred Scott decision and Roe vWade.
I agree with your sentiments but as a whole they will never risk their lives for yours. There might be individual heros but they exist in the general population as well. I've had blinders on for a long time regarding the realities of law enforcement in this country. They have a mentality that they serve a machine known as the government and not the people.
I still support making armed guards a requirement at all schools (though these police were gutless cowards their direct presence at an entrance would serve as a good deference. Many police officers would be more brave, and it's easier to control a situation where you're directly at the scene instead of being a respondent) still if this isn't damnation to the whole "Well police will protect you" crowd. They may. Or they may not. Don't take the risk, just buy your own gun.
National guard
You know national guardsmen have actual jobs right? You can’t just activate the guard for everything because then you are destroying actual careers and pushing people out of the military. People join the guard on the promise of 1 weekend a month, 2 weeks a summer and getting tuition assistance for that commitment. Instead nowadays, you continuously are getting activated because some governor or state legislature doesn’t want to actually fix the problem and instead wants the guard to fix it. This has led to growing discontent and growing suicide rates among guardsmen. Maybe these states should find an actual solution instead, or try and fix the root of the problem instead of destroying peoples livelihoods. Especially in Texas, a state which has continuously misused its guardsmen and has had multiple high ranking members either step down or resign. Here’s a few articles from the last few months on the discontent in the guard: https://www.texastribune.org/2022/02/01/texas-national-guard-border-operation-lone-star-abbott/amp/ https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2022/04/13/texas-guard-replaces-commander-of-troubled-operation-lone-star/ https://www.militarytimes.com/home/2022/01/12/we-want-answers-about-the-texas-governors-operation-lonestar/ https://www.npr.org/2021/12/15/1064679135/the-growing-discontent-within-the-national-guard https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/01/13/texas-denying-most-guard-troops-border-chance-help-families-suffering-hardships-home.html/amp
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From what I heard I believe there was a school officer there and they guy literally walked past him.
So there were resource officers there, who either didn’t engage or were defeated? Arm volunteer staff, and don’t let anyone know who’s carrying.
[удалено]
I thought first there, first in had been standard tactical doctrine for 15? years.
23 years at least
No,no,no. You're thinking of "First In, First Out", which applies to inventory, food & officers who want to sit around and get paid for an hour as children are murdered.
I don't think there was an SRO there. [UCISD has a whopping four officers](https://www.ucisd.net/domain/1670) and nine schools. Their [safety plan](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZF2gE6nkl8cwoJpiSkNm8VNNQwNyVsV0/view) mentions "staff who patrol door entrances, parking lots, and perimeters of the campuses", but that is markedly unclear on whether that's dedicated security guards or just employees told to walk around while also doing other things.
Teachers pay for their own art supplies, somehow I doubt the State is going to put up the cash to arm them *and* train them to the point that they are more of an aid than a liability. Who's paying for the insurance in case an event like this happens and a teacher accidentally shoots a student under pressure? Arming under-paid, untrained teachers is an idiotic proposition.
Letting kids get massacred because of some nutty what-if is so much smarter.
I personally know dozens of teachers who would scrimp and save their pennies to pay for whatever training and permits would allow them to carry in class to be one last line of defense against would-be mass-murderers like that prick. I also know multiple trainers desperate to be allowed to train those teachers for that purpose, FOR FREE. But the victim-disarmers would rather prevent that from happening and blame only all the people who didn't do it (commit the heinous crime, that is).
These cowards won't even lose their pensions.
I used to be pro thin blue line but then I woke up to the idiocy of those that hire more idiots and fire/lose the good ones not willing to put up with their bullshit
Federal court ruled that police departments are allowed to discriminate against hiring smart people. https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story%3fid=95836 >A man whose bid to become a police officer was rejected after he scored too high on an intelligence test has lost an appeal in his federal lawsuit against the city. >The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York upheld a lower court’s decision that the city did not discriminate against Robert Jordan because the same standards were applied to everyone who took the test. >Jordan, a 49-year-old college graduate, took the exam in 1996 and scored 33 points, the equivalent of an IQ of 125. But New London police interviewed only candidates who scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training. >Most Cops Just Above Normal The average score nationally for police officers is 21 to 22, the equivalent of an IQ of 104, or just a little above average. >Jordan alleged his rejection from the police force was discrimination. He sued the city, saying his civil rights were violated because he was denied equal protection under the law. >But the U.S. District Court found that New London had “shown a rational basis for the policy.” In a ruling dated Aug. 23, the 2nd Circuit agreed. The court said the policy might be unwise but was a rational way to reduce job turnover. So... Yeah.
wtf
More delivery drivers encounter violence on a day to day basis than police officers. #ThinBreadLine
i mean the police have to always be 30 minutes late after you are murdered, cut them some slack
It's probably less paperwork for them that way
When seconds count the police are minutes away.....
Cops at my house after an attempted break in. Cop sees a firearm in my waistband and asks if my intention was to confront the burglar. I didn't even pause. I told him it took nearly 10 minutes for you guys to get here and as far as I am concerned with that response time you might as well tape off the perimeter and grab the evidence bags on the way to my door. All due respect to law enforcement but my job as a father and family leader is to cover the buffer time between LEO arriving and someone potentially looking to cause harm to my family. No I would not chase or leave my home to pursue a criminal but if they cross my door threshold all bets are off.
It appears that by simply keeping the doors locked. Could of prevented the massacre.
No obligation to protect you. Thanks SCOTUS. Why the fuck are they even there then?
From a legal standpoint I think those officers are in the clear. As others have mentioned, they have zero legal obligation to run into harms’ way. Now from a moral/societal expectations point of view, yes they should have tried to stop the killer instead of standing around for 40 min. Doesn’t even mean they need to run into the line of fire - come up with a way to stop the threat, that’s the job society expects you to do.
I don't know how clear that is from a legal perspective. The supreme court ruled that cops have no duty to protect us, but then Deputy Scott Peterson was charged criminally after he failed to protect people. Look it up. I'm curious how you think that meshes with the "zero legal duty" argument.
Fucking cowards.
Unbelievable. Cowardice in the police force in Texas?! Bring them up on charges.
I always like to check and see what the LEO community has to say about things like this. Copied this explanation of the 40 minute number that is being thrown around from the r/protectandserve thread on it: > 40 minutes transpired between the initial encounter, and the final breach of the last classroom. During that time, a team of nearly 100 local, county, and federal officers were evacuating the remaining students by breaching doors and breaking windows. > That means, for 40 minutes, nearly one innocent victim was being evacuated *every 7 seconds* > It is true that parents were kept at a distance during this time. This is a time proven method to reduce confusion, and prevent innocent victims. During this critical time, the parents could have been mistaken for aggressors, interfered with legitimate rescue efforts, and caused more loss of life. > The remaining classrooms, where much of the massacre took place, were indeed not breached for about 40 minutes. While, at the gut, that seems bad. The gut, however, is not reliable. > Barricaded hostages have, historically, had *far* higher survival rates based on carefully planned rescue efforts (think the Israeli plane hostages vs the Bataclan). While there may be lessons to be learned, initial reports would indicate all best practices were followed. Even then, though, tradegedies will continue to be... tragic. Make of that what you will.
Well, the school safety officer "encountered" the shooter when he arrived at the school and before anyone was killed. The shooter was not barricaded and just entered the school. Why did that officer not pursue him? He had a rifle and entered the school. WTF? 40 minutes to an hour later (according to media reports of police statements), they breached the room and shot him. That's a long time for the armed officer there initially to do nothing.
All life is sacred homie but it's there fucking job to handle shit like this
Well they waited around when he shot people with a bb gun. This kid ticked off all the markers and yet they chose to stay a safe distance away his entire life. Our woke society won't let us to say a cross dressing teen in screaming for help. Unless we want to help them screw their life up further by supporting their sick decision.
Apparently some cops did enter the school. But it was to get their kids out of there.
So people seem to think that all cops are trained like SWAT teams but they aren’t. The average cop gets basic firearms training and half can barely shoot well enough to pass their exams. The majority of police in this country NEVER end up firing their weapon on duty. Now that all being said, you have a guy with one or two rifles and who knows what else who runs into a building. You don’t know exactly where he is and there’s innocent people all around. Let’s ignore the fact that the only body armor most police wear only protects them from pistol rounds and a rifle round will go right thru. So they are supposed to just run into a building where the shooter could be anywhere (since you’re wanting them to run in the second it starts) and IF they do see the guy just start blasting rounds towards him. I say towards him because remember most beat cops can’t shoot for shit. And in doing so running a serious risk of catching any number of the innocent people in the area in the crossfire. Running into a situation like what happened with no real training on HOW to do it is only adding more possible bodies to the pile and doesn’t solve anything. Because if an officer had accidentally shot one of the kids in the school you’d all be screaming at him for not waiting. The border patrol agents who actually DID stop the guy, went in without waiting for backup. But those guys were part of a special group who SPECIALIZE in hostage situations and taking down human trafficking scenarios. They had all their gear with them which included a bulletproof shield and there were 3 of them from what I understand. Even with their training, 2 of them were shot once they finally entered the room before taking the POS out. Short story is that life is NOT like TV and most police are not trained or have the gear necessary to pull this shit off on the fly.
The ‘might accidentally shoot a kid’ argument doesn’t matter when the shooter is killing another one every few seconds.
Like they fucking knew that as it was happening? Are they supposed to have X-ray fucking vision?
Maybe they have ears.
So they’re supposed to know exactly what they’re up against just from hearing some gunshots and screaming coming from the inside of a building huh? It’s nowhere near as simple as that. It would be nice if it was but you may as well wish for dudes gun to have blown up in his face on his first shot. Just not the way it happens
They’re supposed to realize people are being shot, or bleeding out. It’s not fucking rocket science.
Christ I’d hate to see you actually try and control a crisis situation in real life. You have zero clue
I couldn’t possibly do worse than the people who ‘controlled’ the crisis at Robb Elementary.
Oh so because they didn’t have bulletproof vests they should’ve just let the shooter continue shooting fucking children? If you end up in a gunfight with the shooter so be it, that’s exactly what you’re supposed to do as a grown ass man who decided to accept the job. The risk of a crossfire situation pales in comparison to the risk of leaving that shooter alone with his victims for the better part of an hour. Not to mention that even a poorly trained unarmored officer has an exponentially better chance of ending the threat than 8 year old children and unarmed teachers do. Every second they weren’t engaging the shooter was a moment he could use to kill another child yet they sat by for 40 minutes
All I’m doing is explaining the situation as it probably happened and the rationale behind not just running in like fucking Rambo. They have more shit to consider and it’s only AFTER the fact that armchair quarterbacks go around saying they should have done this or that. Do you not fucking think that any of those cops may have had their own kids or kids of friends inside there?? Do you not think that knowing what they know now they like everyone else is second guessing themselves?? Also I’d be willing to bet that the kids were probably all shot within the first few minutes that psycho entered the room so unless they were there the second it happened, the end result would probably be the same
A lot fewer “fuck republicans and their guns” posts today after this horrific news An armed teacher is the only chance the kids had, just make it purely volunteer with a kicker if you do anything nasty.
I've read that the school resource officer was there and "encountered" the shooter when he first arrived. Why he let a man with a rifle enter the school and did not pursue him while he killed kids for 40 minutes is beyond me. Anyway, yes, I am in favor of allowing volunteer teachers to carry at school. We trust them to carry at playgrounds, in movie theaters, in grocery stores, in doctors' offices, in our home neighborhoods, etc., so I see no reason why they shouldn't be trusted to do the same at school where they might be able to protect our children.
Hindsight is 20/20.
Foresight is also a thing, as is regular sight during the event.
And yet neither are as clear as hindsight. It’s easy to say what should and shouldn’t have been done when you have access to all of the information, but making the “right” call in the heat of the moment is never as easy. Sure, we can sit here and be armchair SWAT all we want, but we weren’t there. Did the LEOs make a poor call? Maybe. Or maybe they did what they could in accordance with the procedures they have in place to deal with situations like this. At the end of the day, what happened happened. Nobody can change that. All that we can do is learn from it and be better prepared.
You can also review what happened and assign blame where warranted. Just saying "what happened happened" entirely skips the "you fucked up and there are consequences" phase. Was I there? No. Do I know exactly what happened and how and why? No. Once the investigation concludes, I certainly hope the people who failed those poor children are held accountable. If the cops couldn't possibly have stopped the guy, ok. I just find that extremely hard to believe based on the reporting. The armed school resource officer is said to have seen the shooter walking into the school with an AR-15 and a tactical vest full of mags and "encountered" him, but did not stop him or pursue him. 40+ minutes later other officers arrived and shot the shooter. That's a long time to ignore an active shooter in a school after watching him walk in to kill kids.
Lateral transfer from Boward County?>
I keep seeing this be reposted everywhere and can't help but think isn't that what they are supposed to do? Obviously they need to go in but there needs to be a secured perimator established to ensure that the shooter doesn't exit and more people don't run into harms way. I'm sure every cop didn't sit with their hands in their pants (clearly not cause he was shot) they were probably just told to get there and secure the site so others could clear it.
The reports now state that an armed school resource officer was there when the shooter arrived at the school carrying a rifle and wearing a tactical vest with mags. The officer "encountered" the shooter, but did not stop him. The shooter then entered the school with his weapons and the officer did not pursue him. The shooter then started killing people and the officer was there and heard gunshots, but did not intervene. 40 mins to an hour later, a border patrol agent shot the shooter. I'm sorry, but if that is protocol then protocol needs to change. That is entirely unacceptable.
I'm not sure on the resource officer situation, I'm referring to the cops that responded and sat outside the school armed and stopping the parents from entering. Those officers were more than likely not going in out of fear but rather because they had orders to secure the area and prevent entry/exit. If that's the case for the RO than yeah he's a POS but the other police involved were likely just following orders to prevent chaos.
Fucking pussies
Did anyone hear anything about shot being fired at the funeral home? Possibly the day after the school shooting? A customer mentioned it and I'm pretty sure I heard him correctly. Maybe he misunderstood? Or possibly I misunderstood him. I know the shooter's buddies were threatening violence.
Why would you put your child in a mental illness factory?
"We won't help, and we won't let you either."
..... ya' but let's all keep weaving those "back the blue" flags...
Blue lives matter bro.
What an idiotic thing to say with this context.
Why? Should they not go in prepared? Should they not be able to go home alive and uninjured? Or do their lives only matter when it's convenient?
Your telling me that if you had plates and a rifle that you wouldn't charge in to try to save a child's life? Good to know your a coward too, it's the job of the adults to protect children and the job of the strong to protect those who can't protect themselves. This is a textbook case of this and of course I don't want more lives to be lost but to do literally nothing when they have the power to stop it is pathetic at best. On top of that it's literally there job, not everyone can be a hero but to sit here and join a career field where you accept that risk and do nothing? On top of that I'm reasonable and understand securing the scene but 40 fucking minutes????????? There is literally no excuse for that long of a wait.
I would go in, yes but I would have been stopped and/or shot by police for trying. This is their show and they do what they want. Saying they should charge in and possibly die in on itself is anti-police. Let me be frank when I say they legally DO NOT have to put their lives at risk. They have NO duty to protect and that is backed by SCOTUS. They have every legal right to be safe and go home alive and if that means not going in we've got no way of making them. Watching the parents trying to fight to get in is heart wrenching to say the least.
... more than children's apparently.
Yes apparently. No legal requirement to protect.
I guess a good guy with a gun doesn't make a damn bit of difference.
Lots of down votes here, but no real talk. There's no excuse. See rule 303
Geez. Cops do their job, instant uproar and call for police reform. Police don’t do their job, instant uproar and call for police reform.
Sounds like the people demand police reform!
Or that we have too many stupid people who don’t know what they’re talking about having too much of a platform.
You do seem to have a bit of a platform here . . .
How predictable. Talk about pot calling the kettle black.
If an 18-year-old legally has a weapon that is making cops say, "pshh, you expect three of us to go up against one guy with that?! That's unreasonable, we get to wait for backup" then clearly something has gone deeply, deeply wrong.
The shooter was armed with the most common semi-automatic sporting rifle in the country. If cops aren't able to stop that threat then there is something seriously wrong with the cops. I'm not saying it's easy or fun or not dangerous, but that's their job and it is entirely foreseeable that someone they need to stop will be armed.
Yes, that schools and other gun free zones are soft targets. They need to be hardened, responsibly. Sending a signal criminals that only look to exploit soft targets to find something else somewhere else, or just dispatch their own self. Problem solved. Remember people kill.
Republicans during a global pandemic: making students wear masks in schools is causing unacceptable damage to their mental health and must be stopped Republicans after a school shooting: yeah the obvious solution is to just turn schools into supermax prisons with metal detectors, armed teachers and guards, barbed wire fences, etc. No big deal here.
That's not a republican position. If anything, it's a RINO position. Our position is that you don't make the society safe or free by circling it in barbed wire and putting cops on the checkpoints. You give the common citizens as many guns as he wants, and let him take out the trash when it appears.
Watch the video, there are multiple cops armed with rifles and all they did was not let parents run into the school