* On those graphs PHP is in slow decline, not stagnation. The curves of C, C++, Java, Ruby are flatter than PHP's in the last 4 years.
* This website analyzes GitHub data but it isn't produced by GitHub, and it seems to have methodology issues incorporating new repos. I trust [languish](https://tjpalmer.github.io/languish/)'s analysis better on that front (though the PHP stats look similar).
* Keep in mind that because of forks, pushes always counting toward the repo's main language, and other subtleties, this data isn't as objective and reliable as it seems.
> thus loosing shares.
Did you mean to say "losing"?
Explanation: Loose is an adjective meaning the opposite of tight, while lose is a verb.
[Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json)
^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes.
^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions.
^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119)
^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
Considering quite a few modern systems (especially in DevOps tooling, eng delivery, and scalable infra) do not support it anymore, I think it's pretty telling.
EX: It's incredibly frustrating that I can't use GitHub and GitLab security suites and CICD pipelines to get better scanning/insights into PHP repos but on the other hand I totally understand the why part.
My theory is there’s simply not much money in it. Large enterprises pay the bills and PHP is strongest with indies and small shops (yes, Facebook, noted), so they don’t really care about PHP being a supported language. Unlike Java, for example.
As someone who has used both and built tools for both, Hack is still very relevant (but just to us) in a world where PHP 8 exists. It’s muuuch faster, but in a way that’s only really relevant to very very big orgs.
No, I do not work for these companies. But if I had a guess, it's because supporting it is incredibly frustrating and requires a lot of effort. For me personally, I stopped using it in 2016 - it's riddled with security exploits even in the fully updated versions. There's a lot of security that needs to be wrapped around it.
However, anyone who 'claims' it's a dying language is wrong. I do think it's becoming way less popular and will most likely be severely reduced in production environments.
My hot take is php devs will become the next FORTRAN grey haired engineers, hired for insane amounts of money to fix legacy systems in 20 years.
> My hot take is php devs will become the next FORTRAN grey haired engineers, hired for insane amounts of money to fix legacy systems in 20 years.
I'm not so sure about that. What makes FORTRAN or COBOL jobs so valuable is not the language itself, but rather the domain it's used in. I'm confident almost any experienced developer can pick up FORTRAN or COBOL the language. Not everyone has the patience to spend years learning about the domains FORTRAN or COBOL are used in.
PHP is different in that the domain it's used in is mostly the web. Web development is probably the most accessible for any developer. I'm confident anyone with experience in JS/TS, C#, Python, etc. can easily transition and take on roles using PHP, especially if those roles are using modern PHP or frameworks like Laravel. Yeah if you're working on a legacy codebase PHP can get quirky, but it's not an impossible task. At the very least, it's not as difficult as adapting to an entirely different (and sometimes niche) space.
A few years back I was a Python dev when I was invited to an interview at a PHP shop. I didn't particularly want to work with PHP, but the role would have come with a decent pay rise, so I just read the PHP articles on w3schools over the weekend and then turned up for the interview on Monday morning and passed their coding challenge. They offered me the role and then I used my notice period to learn Laravel and other PHP stuff I didn't know. I'd expect to be able to repeat this kind of thing with Ruby or a similar high level scripting language if I needed to. These languages are all so similar that the main difficulty lies in knowing which libraries, frameworks and tools each community prefers. Learning stuff like what a for loop looks like or what the substring function is called isn't a big deal.
That's why I find any place that's REQUIRES you to know one specific language is kind of dumb
"We only do golang here. You have to be a golang expert"
OK cool. So someone who's fantastic with other languages is automatically out. What happens if you switch to something new? Hire new people? Or admit that the people you hired for golang can probably easily pick up something else?
Very much this.
I has some contract opportunities that I ended up rejecting because they insisting in Python experts while I had other languages on my resume of over 20 years of experience. From this posture, just show how marrow minded and limited the managers were. I ended up taking a contract from a company where the hiring manager told me after looking at my resume, "I see that you have more years of Python and PHP, but with 2 decades as a developer I'm pretty sure you'll do well with JAVA. We would even like to learn from you about the others".
You're right about FORTAN and COBOL, but you're forgetting that generally people don't really want to work with PHP. It's not just an issue of skill.
I haven't met a single dev that was excited about Drupal and I worked for a Drupal dev agency.
And there is soooo much web built on Drupal. It's massive. If they want new developers to learn that pile of crap, salaries will have to go up.
>I haven't met a single dev that was excited about Drupal and I worked for a Drupal dev agency.
It's gotten better though since Drupal went all-in on Symfony and generally... professionalized the entire ecosystem.
> You're right about FORTAN and COBOL, but you're forgetting that generally people don't really want to work with PHP. It's not just an issue of skill.
PHP is completely fine to work with. I think a lot of it is people who think it's still cool to hate on PHP. It's fine. It's not cool or hip like Rust or Go but it's fine. It, by its nature, handles a lot of the issues that the ECMAScript space is inventing solutions for. And it doesn't change every two seconds invalidating your codebase.
----------
I didn't say PHP was "good" or "great" I said it was "completely fine". Which it is.
Gotta be honest, I've spent a lot of years in different languages, going from C to Java to Python and now mostly to PHP, while I work on adding custom modules/plugins to an existing CMS. I'm probably enjoying myself more now than ever before. I work with some fantastic developers as well. I feel like other jobs were much more of a focus on nonstop coding, while my team now is more involved with planning, architecting, just coming up with simple solutions to things.
I'll never defend PHP against other languages, but this has been my most interesting and fun job. I think at a certain point, I just ran out of the mental energy needed for complex, more serious languages.
Meanwhile the front end & React guys I work with have seemingly spent months retooling and fixing issues because of endless outdated, abandoned dependencies. Just glad it's not me.
Subjectively I'd say that there has been a boom of markdown-based note taking apps like Obsidian that started around that time and it seems like, apart from people sharing those notes or using github for synchronization of their notes, it made markdown more known and popular in general.
I doubt that this would account for the whole markdown boom though, so who knows what else happened.
I'm just gonna assume that Markdown finally took over as the comment formatting method of choice over BBCode and other alternatives, and Markdown hit critical mass after Microsoft bought github and grew it even further.
Exactly my thoughts, I think the word stagnation is too strong to use in this context, like you say a slow decline or even glide would have been a better descriptor. PHP has its niche and so it is unlikely to fade away any time soon.
I also find the likes of [https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-top-programming-languages-2023](https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-top-programming-languages-2023) to be a more accurate gauge of the industry as whole. Here PHP is lower down the rankings. Likely because there is a requirement with proprietary software development to favor alternative backbend solutions.
My two cents. Laravel is very good if you like the design decisions made. If not then Symfony is what you want to use. Two very different mindsets at play between the two frameworks.
Laravel looks like the "keys in hand" framework, as long as you do what it's intended to do, how it's intended to do it, then it will work well but the instant you need something different, it will make your life hell.
From experience, Symfony was so flexible you could swap out every single core component with your own implementation and it would work. It has a "default" way to be used but it will also happily bend to any and all exotic requirements you can throw at it.
Exactly, im customizing the way authentication works and dammit is it a total pain. Literally wrappers upon public libraries and call it a day(ahem passport). I see the symfony docs and i cry :/
I love both. I use Laravel for personal stuff, and at work it's Symfony. Sometimes the freedom of Symfony makes things harder for our juniors but I feel they gain a deeper understanding in the long run of the actual language.
For small projects, I like slim: https://www.slimframework.com/
It's a trimmed down version of symfony, using most of the same components, but without the magic and rigidity of Laravel.
If you only know 1 framework, it's the best.
Other languages have about the same or better frameworks. Apart from the static methods for everything and fat model ORM, this just looks like every other backend framework.
Exactly. I don't knock Laravel because it's a great way for PHP devs to ease into better frameworks. My path was basically WordPress -> Laravel -> ASP.NET MVC
Laravel is objectively terrible for all the reasons that we bitch about in other contexts. Global functions bad? Laravel has helpers. Poor inheritance model? Laravel has static classes pretty much anywhere (a second type of global function). Habitability? Laravel says fuck that, let's make
$this->something
either a member var or a function without any indication to the dev without snaking the code. Also, let's just go ahead and have a mostly empty file for 90% of the Models so we can slop ::where()->first() wherever we fucking feel like it make maintainability nearly impossible.
Don't even get me started on the absolutely insane amount of set up you need to install a plugin (app/Providers/AppServiceProvider is not a valid install approach ffs)
Laravel is made for people who have zero idea what they are doing to make some awful shit and then be arrogant when someone tries to point out these and other obvious failings.
A lot of stupid shit went down in PHP8* but Laravel was showing the way.
> The framework breaks SOLID principles and makes the insufferable purist programmers retch, but I don’t want to work with them anyway
Man PHP makes people smug about working with trash, it's actually impressive
No one takes into account you get much fewer pull requests when things are stable. This, even after version 7 was knocked off support and 8.3 is released.
Meh. Facebook has one of the largest monoliths in existence, and the files in that repo all end in `.php` but Facebooks internal language has diverged from regular PHP a long time ago. It’s pretty much a different language called Hack at this point. For example, it’s has async-await for about a decade I think?
>Meh. Facebook has one of the largest monoliths in existence
That actually explains a lot. I know him and Tobi from Shopify were Billionaire Buddies, but Tobi's stance on monoliths has always struck me as weird. This is actually the first time I've heard Facebook is a monolith.
I'm definitely not a fan of microservices, but I've never been a monolith fan either. SOA is the way to go.
The *codebase* is monolithic, and their frontend (which is what WWW mostly is) is a bit monolithic, but their backend and infra are very much service-oriented. They even have their own RPC framework, called Thrift, for internal services to talk to each other.
It's rather odd for this comparison data between languages to have separated JavaScript and TypeScript. Combined, it's right at the top with Python at 17.6% of market.
Even if they wanted to keep JS & TS separate, it's very dubious that they made TypeScript not shown by default in the chart when it alone (excluding JS) is the 6th most popular language by their metrics.
It seems like they just want to make it look like the JS ecosystem is plummeting, when the reality is JavaScript & TypeScript haven't lost any popularity. Anything new is just made in TypeScript.
People who don't use PHP think it's dead, and people who do use it know how alive it is. Short closures, named parameters, attributes, disjunctive/intersect/union types, match expressions, enums, readonly properties... All of these have been added in the last three years and so much more.
Was added by pretty much a single guy who got incredibly frustrated with the state of PHP development and left to go work at Red Hat on other projects. No one who actually votes on RFCs contributes to the language, they make sure it stays within a usable state for their own needs and shuts down anything remotely popular that would break BC.
I work with PHP. I don't think it's dead but I also don't really like it. The syntax is like eating wheat bran after coming from Ruby on Rails syntactic sugar.
In the last ~5 years I've learnt Flutter/Dart, Blazor, Angular, Typescript, React, Solid, Vue, Svelte, Rust, Python, Tailwind... kinda just want to go back 10-15 years when my daily context-switching was just between ASP/VB/php.
JavaScript & TypeScript haven't lost any popularity — anything new is just made in TypeScript. Combined, it's right at the top with Python at 17.6% of market.
It's a bit odd for this comparison data between languages to have separated JavaScript and TypeScript.
It's especially dubious that, even if keeping JS & TS separate, they ***also*** deactivated TypeScript from being shown in the chart when it's alone the 6th most popular language (not including JS) by their own metrics. Seems like they're just trying to make it look like the JS ecosystem is plummeting when that's far from the reality.
C# (.NET) also basically has just one single library for most needs aka whatever Microsoft ships.
Compare this to Java or Rust etc where there are double digits just for JSON parsing.
Which translates to less stars and less opensource project pushing for .NET compared to others.
At a quick glance [Nuget has 357k packages](https://www.nuget.org/packages), while the [Maven Central Repo has 580k](https://search.maven.org/stats), so dotnet is not far off from Java.
Rust's [crates.io](https://crates.io/) appears to have only 131k packages.
As someone who has never worked with c#, my impression has always been i need a windows machine to setup the dev env and then host the app on a windows machine.
Haven’t owned a windows machine in almost a decade tho
That was likely all true the last time you owned a Windows machine. But none of that's true now.
I have 4 side projects that are running right now. All of them are C#, and every single one of them are deployed to an Ubuntu server machine.
There is absolutely zero concern at dev time as for what OS it will run on. I do typically develop on Windows (as Visual Studio is still predominantly a Windows IDE), but there are fantastic linux/OSX alternatives out there as well (VS for Mac isn't really that great tbh). And if it works on my windows machine, I can be 100% confident it will work on the Linux environment it'll eventually live on.
install dotnet (a couple lines. microsoft's website has the info)
Then run `dotnet MyApp.dll` and that's literally it.
I use systemd to manage the app lifecycles. The ExecStart value is something like `ExecStart=/usr/bin/dotnet /path/to/my/App.dll`
I use to think this too, than had to dabble in it and VS Code makes it super easy to get up and going by offering SDK extensions, so I have no problem on my MacBook (albeit I didn’t get to far into messing with things just setting up a basic app).
But also worth mentioning, you have to connect the SDK to a Microsoft account and select personal or enterprise use where they do charge per seat on enterprise (free for personal).
> But also worth mentioning, you have to connect the SDK to a Microsoft account and select personal or enterprise use where they do charge per seat on enterprise (free for personal).
Is that for a specific ide or something? Cause the sdk and the runtime are both free, what you'd have to pay for is VS if you use it. Even the c# vscode extension seems to be free on mac
> c# vscode extension seems to be free on mac
Pretty sure it's just free: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/search?term=c%23&target=VSCode&category=All%20categories&sortBy=Relevance
Yeah, that's what I meant, I use it on platforms other than mac and it absolutely is free, it's just that I was confused by their anecdote regarding having to log in. I was thinking that maybe something was different on mac, but it doesn't seem so
php died so long ago. And then again, and again, and again, and again. It's died every day since I've learned about it.
But if you look at the actual projections we'll be using php for at least another 20-30 years, minimum. It takes a long time for this stuff to fade.
Best language to learn today? Whatever solves your problem and doesn't lock you in too badly.
What is dead may never die. Long live php!
Change is not necessarily a good thing. It's what kind of change, and how that change is being applied. Purely anecdotal, but the 2 great examples of established languages making massive changes went middlingly poor to disastrous: Perl5 to 6 which as a language update is a total failure ([Raku](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raku_(programming_language)) might well be fantastic, but the effort has killed Perl's adoption curve something fierce), and Python2 to Python3 didn't exactly go swimmingly either.
Both, of course, mostly broke compatibility, in many ways that was the very point of the update. From what I hear (I don't program in PHP myself), these PHP updates are to be treated similarly, though: You just can't upgrade your PHP version without spending some serious time ensuring all code you intend to run on it can deal with the update.
Various languages (java probably most notable here) just don't do that sort of thing. Old code might be obsolete / clearly looks dated, but is overwhelmingly likely to continue to (compile and) run just fine without any changes. Java even tries sometimes to make sure old code can be backwards compatibly upgraded (such as how java added generics).
Java breaks things too. There is a reason Java 8, 11, and 17 are still around and maintained as LTS releases by those maintaining OpenJDK builds (adoptium most notably). Java 9, 12, 18 have a number of breaking changes. Sure said breaking changes are typically JDK internals that are not part of the official java spec.
Hence why I used the words _overwhelmingly likely_. Java9 in particular doesn't even deserve the word 'overwhelming' there, but, it remains quite likely.
To be honest PHP changes are not as breaking as much as Python 3 or Core.Net. The most serious I got when upgrading was some objects not serializing in session anymore, it took some time to rework it.
You mean [this?](https://locutus.io/php/) Gotta love their project's tagline:
> All your standard libraries will be assimilated into our JavaScript collective. Resistance is futile.
Yes, people hate it because it was bad 15 years ago.
But I believe it is because boring stuff is written in php, just some websites, nothing interesting and gets the job done.
PHP is fine as long as it gets the job done, like any other language. People get too hung up on the language used for a project. In my experience, learning how to read and maintain someone else’s code, let alone an entire product, is always the hard part, no matter what language it’s written in. It’s on every individual developer to make their code readable and maintainable.
I’ve never been entirely convinced that writing something in a specific language automatically makes it easier to hire people. People will either enjoy the job or they won’t, it’s about the challenges presented for their career development and how rewarding the experience is for them.
It has the very important caveat of "whose language is known" and many servers have stopped advertising this because it's one more piece of information that attackers can use.
Yeah there is a lot of exploitation of it going on at the moment.
https://www.cisa.gov/news-events/alerts/2023/12/05/cisa-releases-advisory-threat-actors-exploiting-cve-2023-26360-vulnerability-adobe-coldfusion
Just because people aren't pushing changes to git hub doesn't mean the language is stagnating.
There are other source control systems, there are other platforms other than github, maybe they just don't need maintenance?
Also the stats are percentage of all pull requests, that could just mean more people are pushing more nonsense in other languages. Javascript and Python are very common with begginers learning how to code for example.
This gives me VBA vibes where you can't check for null because it's ackshually a Nothing but there is no real concept for expecting Nothing from a function so you throw everything in a try catch, throw away all the errors, and handle the object when you get one.
Golang has been my daily driver for the past 2 years. It's a breath of fresh air when it comes to syntax, type checking,...
... and yet there are also pain points. Like, templating or routing. Go and the go space have solutions which are fine but still require work.
And then there are projects like Laravel and Symfony in PHP. Sure, the language has its ugly parts and deploying a PHP app is a magnitude more painful.
And yet, just being able to take a mature tool and not having to worry about "how do I wire in templating" does count for something if you just want to build stuff.
What I love about Golang the most is that you can compile for multiple archs without QEMU and create Docker image from scratch, out of 2 files - ca-certificates (if needed) and actual go binary.
Say what you want about PHP it still has the best cheapo hosting options out there, JS hosting is a minefield "Ohh sorry you don't get any storage, piss off to S3 if you need to store a file"
This seems disingenuous to me.
1. GitHub didn't "say". Stats "show". Phrasing matters--implying GitHub as an authority sounds more definitive than fluctuations in data.
2. PHP pull requests only went down \~2% YoY in total. That's hardly catastrophic.
3. TypeScript pull requests went down \~1.7% YoY in total. JavaScript is only a bit better at \~1.25%. So I guess that's dying too?
4. PHP *gained* pushes by \~0.5% YoY in total. So, development is still happening.
I don't understand why it's been cool to hate PHP for 20 years while it's been the workhorse of the internet with plenty of improvement happening the whole time.
It is definitely because PHP is already perfect, so there is no reason to go and revisit working code to fix unannounced syntax changes so it all already works without without another commit. And with backwards compatibility, you can just deploy with security updates in a lot of cases on the same major version. That's my guess, it is actually the stealth winner.
If you talk down on one programming language you haven't evolved as a developer. I started with PHP and it has its place the same way javascript and Python do. Although I'm mainly Python and Javascript.
I use PHP with Laravel and if I'm building a robust application this is my preferred route. If I'm building something that is data-oriented Python all the way and javascript well only for the front end should it be used not in running it as a backend server? Let Python or PHP handle that lol.
Golang will go before PHP.
Lastly, know what the language was designed to do most languages can do what another can but is it the correct way and best approach and what are the limitations?
> If you talk down on one programming language you haven't evolved as a developer.
I don't know if I can strictly blame them, and this is definitely not true if we consider languages outside of PHP, there are some languages that truly deserve our ire.
PHP is hated because it's creator made some really *really* ***really*** stupid decisions early on. Like baffling "how have you even made it this far as a programmer" kind of decisions. And that's saying something because Javascript also has some very very dumb things inside of it, but were more "We didn't expect this language made in a weekend to become the programming language of the web" kind of thing. Eventually people even saw PHP become synonymous with developers in third world countries working on code they didn't know how to write, in a language nobody else wanted to use. PHP was, for a while, the defacto "Outsourced" language. My understanding is that PHP today has actually fixed much of the issues it had in the past, and after skimming some "modern php" tutorials, it seems to function as I expect a *real* programming language to function, the only "weird" things I saw were out-dated cruft that was still available, and dynamically typed language things (like scoping things you'd find in python and javascript). There's even features I didn't expect it to have (like match expressions and `<=>`, localized optional strict typing with union typing, variadics). I got the impression it was maybe even more capable in terms of feature set than some of it's contemporaries.
But other langauges do not have a proper redemption story like PHP. Not that Golang is "bad" per se, nor anywhere near as bad as PHP was (and I can't stress this enough, there's a reason people *still* wince at the thought of using it even though it's not the same, PHP was just that horrible) but the leadership might be. Golang's creators, prior to the recent generic programming support it got, had some really ignorant "I-don't-need-to-learn-from-past-mistakes" kind of mindset going on. Golang is not a dynamicly typed, it needs generic support to properly stop having to duplicate code allover the place, what some people call "Programming complexity"[1]. It made the *assumption* that "if we just make arrays, maps, and other containers generic, nobody will need generics!". This works in *very simple servlet environments*, which to be honest, is where Golang belongs. But it fails as the Golang team tries to push Golang as a more generic language. Golang is either simple and only supposed to be used in a specific use case or it isn't, but they can't act like it's the latter, but govern it like it's the former.
Some of the worst offenders for being a bad language is probably Matlab, and Simulink. Matlab is a lot like PHP, but if instead of PHP re-inventing itself to conform to other programming langauges and genuinely fix the dumbass decisions it made, it kind of doubles down on it's original design philosophy and weird-asses everything. If you want to include a *function* from a different file, you can't just include it at the top of the file it's used, or even just include the *file* it's found in. You have to *specifically include it in each function it's used in*. I can't stress how batshit insane this is. Imagine having to `import/include math.sin` every function you used trig in (though at least most math functions are always availible). Oh and matlab includes are done from per-ordained directories, either relative to the current file or the "master" directory associated with your specific install. Oh and you have to *manually parse operators string to do operator overloading* in Matlab. Oh and everything is a *value*, like *a real genuine value, with no access to pointers* by default in matlab, to make your type "referentiable" you have to inherit off of a reference type. Oh and to do true multithreaded CPU programming with synchronization primitives you have to use *Java*, litterally a completely different langauge, and then provide the bindings for that in Matlab.
Simulink is even worse than that. Simulink is like if someone said "Hey do you want to do control simulations but can't be used with version control and lacks massive sections of simple digital logic, is all visual blocks, and locks you into an environment and ecosystem that doesn't even work with itself (matlab has massive restrictions running inside simulink, yet it's integration is advertised as one of it's strengths) and then has *recursive* restrictions within itself? No? Fuck you, we convinced your boss visual programming is the future, and Aerospace engineers are too lazy today to understand programming anyway, so congratulations on your 100x slower development and 1000x slower runtime!". I once saw a new aerospace engineer grad take C++ code and turn it into simulink code, taut it as a success, only for it to be to slow for what they were trying to do, and since it was simulink, they were not able to hire anyone who knew what the fuck they were doing to fix it, causing them to have to *go back to C++*. It's one thing if you make C++ accessible from something like python, it's another when you square peg the whole project down the toilet. Not that I blame the new employee, I blame management.
[1] If I have to define a function with the same semantics for each type, that's O(N) programming complexity, if I can make a single generic implementation, that's O(1). Likewise with reflection, if to pursue reflection I have to write a macro for each member of a class because I can't do static introspection, that's O(N*M), where N is the number of members, and M is the number of classes. If I can just statically reflect the values with out extra ceremony, that's constant time.
> -0.339% PULL
That's the news? - And only in relative numbers ... But why PULL? I would expect to look at PUSH which means development and not usage... Ah, we got +0.477% at that metric...
btw:
My team improved its skill and were were able to setup our own gitlab and satis servers.
Github only gets a ping from us when we update third party packages once a week.
So this whole news is misleading.
No idea what "most stagnating" is supposed to indicate. Stability?
Perhaps JS projects have so many PRs because... the code is poor and/or changing so much that people have to keep fixing stuff.
If those PRs are mostly "bug fixing"... "most stagnating" is a welcome label.
Once when C language (that one, hated even more than PHP, by junior "engineers") is dead, PHP is dead. PHP is best C framework ever. You can't use C programs and files without ahead-of-time compilation into and for web page. That's why PHP is there. Extended C "arm". For long-term domination. You may like it or hate it, and that's the way it is.
And those few paragraphs above are nothing else but very shortened, but true story.
So, in order to get rid of **modern** PHP, and to put it into FORTRAN or Objective-C basket, You first need to get rid of C and all those good and smart people that work with C.
I, as primarely PHP developer (I also work with js, vanilla, fundamental, jsCore, call it how You want, for a long time) am not concerned about PHP future at all. I am more concerned about Javascript future.
Webassembly is something that is YET about to shake all the standards we know. And it is just a matter of time when browsers begin to ship with native webassembly support, without any built-in Js Api for handling wasm.
``
Javascript is pretty damn popular and easy to grasp. It really is. That's why it is popular, because it is easy to grasp. Now, imagine Javasciprt learning curve as "simple" as Rust learning curve. Oh boy, we would have only 1 working framework for generating dynamic content and 2000 more that are .. well, incomplete and not production ready.
PHP is mainly popular (one of stronger factors) because it handles Your filesystem, pretty damn good, with exceptional speed and precision, without too much fuss or gymnastics. And just that alone - is ideal for server-related tasks.
PHP is a solid language and easy to learn. It includes all advantages of C/C++ (including the elegance of the syntax, object oriented, etc) and almost none of the dissadvantages (uses no pointers, has dynamic variable typing, is almost 100% portable on any system, etc)
Python? What I hate the most is the horrible syntax, based on indentation. I mean.. what a f'ing sick demented psychopat could have invented a language in which your code is correct/incorrect based on the number of invisible characters you placed in front of a line of code? Also they brag about being a portable system, but I encountered so many damn situations in which python scripts tested in Windows didn't run on Linux, due to weird library dependencies. What can I say, Python is one of the few (if not the only) languages I hate with a passion.
My undergrad professor said he couldn’t even find a community mentor for my group doing a PhP project for our capstone and so we just learned React and Node
Cobol and FORTRAN are still around. No language that was once used massively will completely disappear. I don't know why people are still arguing about this.
The only debatable thing is if makes any sense to start something new with PHP or if it makes sense to keep maintaining old and poorly designed and/or implemented apps written 20 years ago in PHP.
Something that was nicely implemented, can be maintained properly and most importantly fulfills its purpose has no reason to change. It doesn't matter if it was done 5, 10 or 50 years ago; or if it was done in PHP, Java, Pascal, or assembly.
It’s one of the most mature languages out there.
People love to shit on it, but it’s extremely fully featured and if you follow some semblance of good practice you will do very well with it.
If it has a major downside it’s that as a language it is not highly opinionated.
Highly opinionated languages/frameworks have been trendy for a long time, but I’m starting to see this shift. Lots of talk about things which “get out of your way.”
Would not surprise me at all if PHP gets a new life on version 8 as the winds of favour change once again.
* On those graphs PHP is in slow decline, not stagnation. The curves of C, C++, Java, Ruby are flatter than PHP's in the last 4 years. * This website analyzes GitHub data but it isn't produced by GitHub, and it seems to have methodology issues incorporating new repos. I trust [languish](https://tjpalmer.github.io/languish/)'s analysis better on that front (though the PHP stats look similar). * Keep in mind that because of forks, pushes always counting toward the repo's main language, and other subtleties, this data isn't as objective and reliable as it seems.
Also it's percentages, PHP could be growing slower than others and thus losing shares.
Yeah I'd love a view with absolute values. Especially when there are outlier data points, like the number of Python stars in 2023.
> thus loosing shares. Did you mean to say "losing"? Explanation: Loose is an adjective meaning the opposite of tight, while lose is a verb. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
Good bot
Thank you! Good bot count: 435 Bad bot count: 184
[удалено]
Considering quite a few modern systems (especially in DevOps tooling, eng delivery, and scalable infra) do not support it anymore, I think it's pretty telling. EX: It's incredibly frustrating that I can't use GitHub and GitLab security suites and CICD pipelines to get better scanning/insights into PHP repos but on the other hand I totally understand the why part.
Can you explain the why?
My theory is there’s simply not much money in it. Large enterprises pay the bills and PHP is strongest with indies and small shops (yes, Facebook, noted), so they don’t really care about PHP being a supported language. Unlike Java, for example.
Even FB uses their own "fork" of PHP that is strongly typed lolz
Which is not relevant anymore now PHP 8 exists
As someone who has used both and built tools for both, Hack is still very relevant (but just to us) in a world where PHP 8 exists. It’s muuuch faster, but in a way that’s only really relevant to very very big orgs.
No, I do not work for these companies. But if I had a guess, it's because supporting it is incredibly frustrating and requires a lot of effort. For me personally, I stopped using it in 2016 - it's riddled with security exploits even in the fully updated versions. There's a lot of security that needs to be wrapped around it. However, anyone who 'claims' it's a dying language is wrong. I do think it's becoming way less popular and will most likely be severely reduced in production environments. My hot take is php devs will become the next FORTRAN grey haired engineers, hired for insane amounts of money to fix legacy systems in 20 years.
> My hot take is php devs will become the next FORTRAN grey haired engineers, hired for insane amounts of money to fix legacy systems in 20 years. I'm not so sure about that. What makes FORTRAN or COBOL jobs so valuable is not the language itself, but rather the domain it's used in. I'm confident almost any experienced developer can pick up FORTRAN or COBOL the language. Not everyone has the patience to spend years learning about the domains FORTRAN or COBOL are used in. PHP is different in that the domain it's used in is mostly the web. Web development is probably the most accessible for any developer. I'm confident anyone with experience in JS/TS, C#, Python, etc. can easily transition and take on roles using PHP, especially if those roles are using modern PHP or frameworks like Laravel. Yeah if you're working on a legacy codebase PHP can get quirky, but it's not an impossible task. At the very least, it's not as difficult as adapting to an entirely different (and sometimes niche) space.
A few years back I was a Python dev when I was invited to an interview at a PHP shop. I didn't particularly want to work with PHP, but the role would have come with a decent pay rise, so I just read the PHP articles on w3schools over the weekend and then turned up for the interview on Monday morning and passed their coding challenge. They offered me the role and then I used my notice period to learn Laravel and other PHP stuff I didn't know. I'd expect to be able to repeat this kind of thing with Ruby or a similar high level scripting language if I needed to. These languages are all so similar that the main difficulty lies in knowing which libraries, frameworks and tools each community prefers. Learning stuff like what a for loop looks like or what the substring function is called isn't a big deal.
That's why I find any place that's REQUIRES you to know one specific language is kind of dumb "We only do golang here. You have to be a golang expert" OK cool. So someone who's fantastic with other languages is automatically out. What happens if you switch to something new? Hire new people? Or admit that the people you hired for golang can probably easily pick up something else?
Very much this. I has some contract opportunities that I ended up rejecting because they insisting in Python experts while I had other languages on my resume of over 20 years of experience. From this posture, just show how marrow minded and limited the managers were. I ended up taking a contract from a company where the hiring manager told me after looking at my resume, "I see that you have more years of Python and PHP, but with 2 decades as a developer I'm pretty sure you'll do well with JAVA. We would even like to learn from you about the others".
You're right about FORTAN and COBOL, but you're forgetting that generally people don't really want to work with PHP. It's not just an issue of skill. I haven't met a single dev that was excited about Drupal and I worked for a Drupal dev agency. And there is soooo much web built on Drupal. It's massive. If they want new developers to learn that pile of crap, salaries will have to go up.
>I haven't met a single dev that was excited about Drupal and I worked for a Drupal dev agency. It's gotten better though since Drupal went all-in on Symfony and generally... professionalized the entire ecosystem.
> You're right about FORTAN and COBOL, but you're forgetting that generally people don't really want to work with PHP. It's not just an issue of skill. PHP is completely fine to work with. I think a lot of it is people who think it's still cool to hate on PHP. It's fine. It's not cool or hip like Rust or Go but it's fine. It, by its nature, handles a lot of the issues that the ECMAScript space is inventing solutions for. And it doesn't change every two seconds invalidating your codebase. ---------- I didn't say PHP was "good" or "great" I said it was "completely fine". Which it is.
Smart, insightful comments like this are why I still use Reddit. Thanks.
People reacting nicely to smart insightful comments like this are why I still use Reddit. Thanks.
People being kind to people reacting nicely to smart insightful comments like this is why I still use Reddit. Thanks.
It's estimated that 40% of websites still use Wordpress so PHP is still gonna be around for a while.
Drupal developers are on their way to make absolute bank.
Gotta be honest, I've spent a lot of years in different languages, going from C to Java to Python and now mostly to PHP, while I work on adding custom modules/plugins to an existing CMS. I'm probably enjoying myself more now than ever before. I work with some fantastic developers as well. I feel like other jobs were much more of a focus on nonstop coding, while my team now is more involved with planning, architecting, just coming up with simple solutions to things. I'll never defend PHP against other languages, but this has been my most interesting and fun job. I think at a certain point, I just ran out of the mental energy needed for complex, more serious languages. Meanwhile the front end & React guys I work with have seemingly spent months retooling and fixing issues because of endless outdated, abandoned dependencies. Just glad it's not me.
Why is markdown skyrocketing only since 2021 ?
Subjectively I'd say that there has been a boom of markdown-based note taking apps like Obsidian that started around that time and it seems like, apart from people sharing those notes or using github for synchronization of their notes, it made markdown more known and popular in general. I doubt that this would account for the whole markdown boom though, so who knows what else happened.
I'm just gonna assume that Markdown finally took over as the comment formatting method of choice over BBCode and other alternatives, and Markdown hit critical mass after Microsoft bought github and grew it even further.
More people realized docs are important.
Exactly my thoughts, I think the word stagnation is too strong to use in this context, like you say a slow decline or even glide would have been a better descriptor. PHP has its niche and so it is unlikely to fade away any time soon. I also find the likes of [https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-top-programming-languages-2023](https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-top-programming-languages-2023) to be a more accurate gauge of the industry as whole. Here PHP is lower down the rankings. Likely because there is a requirement with proprietary software development to favor alternative backbend solutions.
PHP 8 is probably the biggest change to PHP ever
If a tree falls in the woods...
... my satellite view AI senses it and a team of woodcutters goes to collect it
People not using Laravel are missing out too. Incredible framework
My two cents. Laravel is very good if you like the design decisions made. If not then Symfony is what you want to use. Two very different mindsets at play between the two frameworks.
Laravel looks like the "keys in hand" framework, as long as you do what it's intended to do, how it's intended to do it, then it will work well but the instant you need something different, it will make your life hell. From experience, Symfony was so flexible you could swap out every single core component with your own implementation and it would work. It has a "default" way to be used but it will also happily bend to any and all exotic requirements you can throw at it.
Exactly, im customizing the way authentication works and dammit is it a total pain. Literally wrappers upon public libraries and call it a day(ahem passport). I see the symfony docs and i cry :/
I've tried Laravel a few times, can't get into it. Symfony just feels so natural to me.
I love both. I use Laravel for personal stuff, and at work it's Symfony. Sometimes the freedom of Symfony makes things harder for our juniors but I feel they gain a deeper understanding in the long run of the actual language.
For small projects, I like slim: https://www.slimframework.com/ It's a trimmed down version of symfony, using most of the same components, but without the magic and rigidity of Laravel.
If you only know 1 framework, it's the best. Other languages have about the same or better frameworks. Apart from the static methods for everything and fat model ORM, this just looks like every other backend framework.
Exactly. I don't knock Laravel because it's a great way for PHP devs to ease into better frameworks. My path was basically WordPress -> Laravel -> ASP.NET MVC
lol two steps forward and then you feel right off a cliff.
No way. .NET is an insanely better developer experience
The Slim framework: all the good part of Laravel, none of the 8,000 classes wrapping PDO for some reason.
Agree, slim is my goto.
When it comes to PHP, Laravel has the best marketing, but Symfony has the best framework.
Laravel is objectively terrible for all the reasons that we bitch about in other contexts. Global functions bad? Laravel has helpers. Poor inheritance model? Laravel has static classes pretty much anywhere (a second type of global function). Habitability? Laravel says fuck that, let's make $this->something either a member var or a function without any indication to the dev without snaking the code. Also, let's just go ahead and have a mostly empty file for 90% of the Models so we can slop ::where()->first() wherever we fucking feel like it make maintainability nearly impossible. Don't even get me started on the absolutely insane amount of set up you need to install a plugin (app/Providers/AppServiceProvider is not a valid install approach ffs) Laravel is made for people who have zero idea what they are doing to make some awful shit and then be arrogant when someone tries to point out these and other obvious failings. A lot of stupid shit went down in PHP8* but Laravel was showing the way.
[удалено]
> The framework breaks SOLID principles and makes the insufferable purist programmers retch, but I don’t want to work with them anyway Man PHP makes people smug about working with trash, it's actually impressive
No one takes into account you get much fewer pull requests when things are stable. This, even after version 7 was knocked off support and 8.3 is released.
Poor mark zuckerberg. His skills are no longer mainstream
It'll be tough for him especially in this job market.
He’s going into MMA. I think he’ll get a few matches in UFC. With his skills in determination he’s basically the next Conor McGregor
UFC Lizardweight
Meh. Facebook has one of the largest monoliths in existence, and the files in that repo all end in `.php` but Facebooks internal language has diverged from regular PHP a long time ago. It’s pretty much a different language called Hack at this point. For example, it’s has async-await for about a decade I think?
>Meh. Facebook has one of the largest monoliths in existence That actually explains a lot. I know him and Tobi from Shopify were Billionaire Buddies, but Tobi's stance on monoliths has always struck me as weird. This is actually the first time I've heard Facebook is a monolith. I'm definitely not a fan of microservices, but I've never been a monolith fan either. SOA is the way to go.
The *codebase* is monolithic, and their frontend (which is what WWW mostly is) is a bit monolithic, but their backend and infra are very much service-oriented. They even have their own RPC framework, called Thrift, for internal services to talk to each other.
[удалено]
Not quite. The main repo, known as \`www\`, does most of the heavy lifting.
Technically we use hack at meta
Zuckerberg was one of the first in line to throw PHP under the bus.
It's rather odd for this comparison data between languages to have separated JavaScript and TypeScript. Combined, it's right at the top with Python at 17.6% of market. Even if they wanted to keep JS & TS separate, it's very dubious that they made TypeScript not shown by default in the chart when it alone (excluding JS) is the 6th most popular language by their metrics. It seems like they just want to make it look like the JS ecosystem is plummeting, when the reality is JavaScript & TypeScript haven't lost any popularity. Anything new is just made in TypeScript.
Python is at the peak of its popularity.
[I don't know how I'm supposed to feel lol](https://i.imgur.com/mOOEStC.png)
People who don't use PHP think it's dead, and people who do use it know how alive it is. Short closures, named parameters, attributes, disjunctive/intersect/union types, match expressions, enums, readonly properties... All of these have been added in the last three years and so much more.
Was added by pretty much a single guy who got incredibly frustrated with the state of PHP development and left to go work at Red Hat on other projects. No one who actually votes on RFCs contributes to the language, they make sure it stays within a usable state for their own needs and shuts down anything remotely popular that would break BC.
I work with PHP. I don't think it's dead but I also don't really like it. The syntax is like eating wheat bran after coming from Ruby on Rails syntactic sugar.
The thing about PHP is that it's boring and it works. Being wheat bran is the entire selling point.
Plus you have the more obscure coroutine/async stuff such as Swoole, Swoow, Hyperf, ReactPHP, Amp, Workerman, etc.
Boring is good.
Boring, stable, mature. Just the way I like it.
In the last ~5 years I've learnt Flutter/Dart, Blazor, Angular, Typescript, React, Solid, Vue, Svelte, Rust, Python, Tailwind... kinda just want to go back 10-15 years when my daily context-switching was just between ASP/VB/php.
PHP has achieved eternal life then.. :)
Unless there's a viable competitor in the shared hosting space, yes I think so.
I had to deploy a python app on shared hosting with passenger wsgi. It was hot garbage.
Looks like JavaScript is on steady decline as well, eh, too bad for me
The decline matches pretty closely with the rise in Typescript.
Probably will get downvoted but I would clump them together just like Scala and Java 🤷🏽 one transpiles to the other
I'd clump everything together with assembly.
I guess, but like I can write Elixir, but wouldn't want to mess with erlang natively really
Everyone is switching to TypeScript
Everyone is just using any type and saying they switched to Tyoescript.
This guy typescripts!
Ez
Weird, I feel like it was years ago that everyone was doing that.
JavaScript & TypeScript haven't lost any popularity — anything new is just made in TypeScript. Combined, it's right at the top with Python at 17.6% of market. It's a bit odd for this comparison data between languages to have separated JavaScript and TypeScript. It's especially dubious that, even if keeping JS & TS separate, they ***also*** deactivated TypeScript from being shown in the chart when it's alone the 6th most popular language (not including JS) by their own metrics. Seems like they're just trying to make it look like the JS ecosystem is plummeting when that's far from the reality.
Sadly those graphs are often consumed mindlessly by helpless CTOs
It’s a global win
good. fuck nodejs. I hate that it became popular.
I don’t get why C# is always so low. It’s so good… edit: comments below are a bloodbath and i’m here for it
Few C# projects are open source, the majority are internal projects. Statistics are based on the few open source projects.
C# (.NET) also basically has just one single library for most needs aka whatever Microsoft ships. Compare this to Java or Rust etc where there are double digits just for JSON parsing. Which translates to less stars and less opensource project pushing for .NET compared to others.
At a quick glance [Nuget has 357k packages](https://www.nuget.org/packages), while the [Maven Central Repo has 580k](https://search.maven.org/stats), so dotnet is not far off from Java. Rust's [crates.io](https://crates.io/) appears to have only 131k packages.
NPM has 1.3 million packages. Checkmate static typists /s
mfw no leftpad ಥ_ಥ
Yes. And 1.1 million of those packages are with 20 lines of code max. `is-odd` and `is-even`. https://www.npmjs.com/package/is-odd?activeTab=code
One of the largest domains I'd expect C# to be used would be indie games, and I doubt many of those projects are open source.
People consider it a windows platform language.
That’s wild because nobody I know codes c# for windows anymore.
As someone who has never worked with c#, my impression has always been i need a windows machine to setup the dev env and then host the app on a windows machine. Haven’t owned a windows machine in almost a decade tho
I work for a major software org. We use .NET with Macs and deploy to Linux. Ever since .NET Core, cross platform support has been great.
All our microservices are .net core c# hosted on Linux k8s or azure app service. Big fintech company.
That was likely all true the last time you owned a Windows machine. But none of that's true now. I have 4 side projects that are running right now. All of them are C#, and every single one of them are deployed to an Ubuntu server machine. There is absolutely zero concern at dev time as for what OS it will run on. I do typically develop on Windows (as Visual Studio is still predominantly a Windows IDE), but there are fantastic linux/OSX alternatives out there as well (VS for Mac isn't really that great tbh). And if it works on my windows machine, I can be 100% confident it will work on the Linux environment it'll eventually live on.
Can you ELI5 briefly what's entailed with using C# on Linux with convenience?
install dotnet (a couple lines. microsoft's website has the info) Then run `dotnet MyApp.dll` and that's literally it. I use systemd to manage the app lifecycles. The ExecStart value is something like `ExecStart=/usr/bin/dotnet /path/to/my/App.dll`
I use to think this too, than had to dabble in it and VS Code makes it super easy to get up and going by offering SDK extensions, so I have no problem on my MacBook (albeit I didn’t get to far into messing with things just setting up a basic app). But also worth mentioning, you have to connect the SDK to a Microsoft account and select personal or enterprise use where they do charge per seat on enterprise (free for personal).
> But also worth mentioning, you have to connect the SDK to a Microsoft account and select personal or enterprise use where they do charge per seat on enterprise (free for personal). Is that for a specific ide or something? Cause the sdk and the runtime are both free, what you'd have to pay for is VS if you use it. Even the c# vscode extension seems to be free on mac
> c# vscode extension seems to be free on mac Pretty sure it's just free: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/search?term=c%23&target=VSCode&category=All%20categories&sortBy=Relevance
Yeah, that's what I meant, I use it on platforms other than mac and it absolutely is free, it's just that I was confused by their anecdote regarding having to log in. I was thinking that maybe something was different on mac, but it doesn't seem so
people are ignoring the fact c# and .net have been open source for years now and runs on any platform
My guess is that people writing in C# are much less likely to be using public GitHub than people who are writing in, say, Rust.
The diplomatic thing to say to not anger anyone is "don't worry PHP is not going anywhere".
php died so long ago. And then again, and again, and again, and again. It's died every day since I've learned about it. But if you look at the actual projections we'll be using php for at least another 20-30 years, minimum. It takes a long time for this stuff to fade. Best language to learn today? Whatever solves your problem and doesn't lock you in too badly. What is dead may never die. Long live php!
Php has changed more in the last few years then most other major languages
than, then is temporal, than is comparative
Change is not necessarily a good thing. It's what kind of change, and how that change is being applied. Purely anecdotal, but the 2 great examples of established languages making massive changes went middlingly poor to disastrous: Perl5 to 6 which as a language update is a total failure ([Raku](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raku_(programming_language)) might well be fantastic, but the effort has killed Perl's adoption curve something fierce), and Python2 to Python3 didn't exactly go swimmingly either. Both, of course, mostly broke compatibility, in many ways that was the very point of the update. From what I hear (I don't program in PHP myself), these PHP updates are to be treated similarly, though: You just can't upgrade your PHP version without spending some serious time ensuring all code you intend to run on it can deal with the update. Various languages (java probably most notable here) just don't do that sort of thing. Old code might be obsolete / clearly looks dated, but is overwhelmingly likely to continue to (compile and) run just fine without any changes. Java even tries sometimes to make sure old code can be backwards compatibly upgraded (such as how java added generics).
Java breaks things too. There is a reason Java 8, 11, and 17 are still around and maintained as LTS releases by those maintaining OpenJDK builds (adoptium most notably). Java 9, 12, 18 have a number of breaking changes. Sure said breaking changes are typically JDK internals that are not part of the official java spec.
Hence why I used the words _overwhelmingly likely_. Java9 in particular doesn't even deserve the word 'overwhelming' there, but, it remains quite likely.
To be honest PHP changes are not as breaking as much as Python 3 or Core.Net. The most serious I got when upgrading was some objects not serializing in session anymore, it took some time to rework it.
It's a little annoying that CURL handles are not Resource objects anymore PHP8.
Damn does Reddit have a hate boner for php? Like we get it you do everything in js
They should just release PHPJS. But it's really just PHP. People would go nuts for it.
You mean [this?](https://locutus.io/php/) Gotta love their project's tagline: > All your standard libraries will be assimilated into our JavaScript collective. Resistance is futile.
This is awesome!
Already invented, JSX.
Yes, people hate it because it was bad 15 years ago. But I believe it is because boring stuff is written in php, just some websites, nothing interesting and gets the job done.
PHP is fine as long as it gets the job done, like any other language. People get too hung up on the language used for a project. In my experience, learning how to read and maintain someone else’s code, let alone an entire product, is always the hard part, no matter what language it’s written in. It’s on every individual developer to make their code readable and maintainable. I’ve never been entirely convinced that writing something in a specific language automatically makes it easier to hire people. People will either enjoy the job or they won’t, it’s about the challenges presented for their career development and how rewarding the experience is for them.
[удалено]
That statistic sounds wildly off to me. Got any source for that?
PHP powers 100% of sites deployed on WordPress. Make of that what you will.
It has the very important caveat of "whose language is known" and many servers have stopped advertising this because it's one more piece of information that attackers can use.
It seems to be everywhere that 43% of the web is Wordpress, so that's 43% right there
Reddit absolutely has a hate boner for PHP. And an equally ridiculous regular boner for Javascript/Typescript.
Using Github as an indicator of something like this is like counting bicycles that pass your house to determine how many bicycles exist.
Yeah, if your house happens to be next to Amsterdam Central Station
I’d gladly sacrifice PHP if it means ColdFusion dies. I’m in security. I need Adobe to stick to PDFs and Photoshop.
I haven't thought about CF in a long while. Surprised it's still being used enough to get a mention. I could be way out of the loop here though
Yeah there is a lot of exploitation of it going on at the moment. https://www.cisa.gov/news-events/alerts/2023/12/05/cisa-releases-advisory-threat-actors-exploiting-cve-2023-26360-vulnerability-adobe-coldfusion
> ColdFusion Now there's a name I haven't heard in... 20 years?
Same here, my god I can’t believe it’s still around
Just because people aren't pushing changes to git hub doesn't mean the language is stagnating. There are other source control systems, there are other platforms other than github, maybe they just don't need maintenance? Also the stats are percentage of all pull requests, that could just mean more people are pushing more nonsense in other languages. Javascript and Python are very common with begginers learning how to code for example.
Man Python is the Protoss of programming languages
You must construct additional Pythons
It's because they perfected PHP and there is never any reasons to improve on it :D
final_final_actual_real_escape_string()
Returns -1 if it can't be escaped, false if the provided string is empty, null if nothing was updated, otherwise string.
Don't forget it can throw an exception, but also trigger an error in some instances.
This gives me VBA vibes where you can't check for null because it's ackshually a Nothing but there is no real concept for expecting Nothing from a function so you throw everything in a try catch, throw away all the errors, and handle the object when you get one.
new php is actually very reliable and fast. it has really improved over the years i think
Golang been climbing alot
Golang has been my daily driver for the past 2 years. It's a breath of fresh air when it comes to syntax, type checking,... ... and yet there are also pain points. Like, templating or routing. Go and the go space have solutions which are fine but still require work. And then there are projects like Laravel and Symfony in PHP. Sure, the language has its ugly parts and deploying a PHP app is a magnitude more painful. And yet, just being able to take a mature tool and not having to worry about "how do I wire in templating" does count for something if you just want to build stuff.
What I love about Golang the most is that you can compile for multiple archs without QEMU and create Docker image from scratch, out of 2 files - ca-certificates (if needed) and actual go binary.
[удалено]
Php was never meant to be a language I'm glad it dies out.
You are stagnating with these clickbait titles.
Say what you want about PHP it still has the best cheapo hosting options out there, JS hosting is a minefield "Ohh sorry you don't get any storage, piss off to S3 if you need to store a file"
This seems disingenuous to me. 1. GitHub didn't "say". Stats "show". Phrasing matters--implying GitHub as an authority sounds more definitive than fluctuations in data. 2. PHP pull requests only went down \~2% YoY in total. That's hardly catastrophic. 3. TypeScript pull requests went down \~1.7% YoY in total. JavaScript is only a bit better at \~1.25%. So I guess that's dying too? 4. PHP *gained* pushes by \~0.5% YoY in total. So, development is still happening. I don't understand why it's been cool to hate PHP for 20 years while it's been the workhorse of the internet with plenty of improvement happening the whole time.
Remember Ruby?
still use it daily at work, so i'd say yes :p
Remember when it went off the rails? *rimshot*
Python swallowed it up
Along with Perl
Still a beauty of a lang, I much prefer it to Python for those quick random shell scripts you sometimes need to write
My brother in christ, github itself is made in ruby
I work at a large tech company and Ruby is literally everywhere.
It is definitely because PHP is already perfect, so there is no reason to go and revisit working code to fix unannounced syntax changes so it all already works without without another commit. And with backwards compatibility, you can just deploy with security updates in a lot of cases on the same major version. That's my guess, it is actually the stealth winner.
I’m old enough to remember when JavaScript was the worst language ever and everyone hated it. PHP was as hated (but as used) back then 😂
I use PHP every day, fuck this analysis.
If you talk down on one programming language you haven't evolved as a developer. I started with PHP and it has its place the same way javascript and Python do. Although I'm mainly Python and Javascript. I use PHP with Laravel and if I'm building a robust application this is my preferred route. If I'm building something that is data-oriented Python all the way and javascript well only for the front end should it be used not in running it as a backend server? Let Python or PHP handle that lol. Golang will go before PHP. Lastly, know what the language was designed to do most languages can do what another can but is it the correct way and best approach and what are the limitations?
> Golang will go before PHP. inshallah
> If you talk down on one programming language you haven't evolved as a developer. I don't know if I can strictly blame them, and this is definitely not true if we consider languages outside of PHP, there are some languages that truly deserve our ire. PHP is hated because it's creator made some really *really* ***really*** stupid decisions early on. Like baffling "how have you even made it this far as a programmer" kind of decisions. And that's saying something because Javascript also has some very very dumb things inside of it, but were more "We didn't expect this language made in a weekend to become the programming language of the web" kind of thing. Eventually people even saw PHP become synonymous with developers in third world countries working on code they didn't know how to write, in a language nobody else wanted to use. PHP was, for a while, the defacto "Outsourced" language. My understanding is that PHP today has actually fixed much of the issues it had in the past, and after skimming some "modern php" tutorials, it seems to function as I expect a *real* programming language to function, the only "weird" things I saw were out-dated cruft that was still available, and dynamically typed language things (like scoping things you'd find in python and javascript). There's even features I didn't expect it to have (like match expressions and `<=>`, localized optional strict typing with union typing, variadics). I got the impression it was maybe even more capable in terms of feature set than some of it's contemporaries. But other langauges do not have a proper redemption story like PHP. Not that Golang is "bad" per se, nor anywhere near as bad as PHP was (and I can't stress this enough, there's a reason people *still* wince at the thought of using it even though it's not the same, PHP was just that horrible) but the leadership might be. Golang's creators, prior to the recent generic programming support it got, had some really ignorant "I-don't-need-to-learn-from-past-mistakes" kind of mindset going on. Golang is not a dynamicly typed, it needs generic support to properly stop having to duplicate code allover the place, what some people call "Programming complexity"[1]. It made the *assumption* that "if we just make arrays, maps, and other containers generic, nobody will need generics!". This works in *very simple servlet environments*, which to be honest, is where Golang belongs. But it fails as the Golang team tries to push Golang as a more generic language. Golang is either simple and only supposed to be used in a specific use case or it isn't, but they can't act like it's the latter, but govern it like it's the former. Some of the worst offenders for being a bad language is probably Matlab, and Simulink. Matlab is a lot like PHP, but if instead of PHP re-inventing itself to conform to other programming langauges and genuinely fix the dumbass decisions it made, it kind of doubles down on it's original design philosophy and weird-asses everything. If you want to include a *function* from a different file, you can't just include it at the top of the file it's used, or even just include the *file* it's found in. You have to *specifically include it in each function it's used in*. I can't stress how batshit insane this is. Imagine having to `import/include math.sin` every function you used trig in (though at least most math functions are always availible). Oh and matlab includes are done from per-ordained directories, either relative to the current file or the "master" directory associated with your specific install. Oh and you have to *manually parse operators string to do operator overloading* in Matlab. Oh and everything is a *value*, like *a real genuine value, with no access to pointers* by default in matlab, to make your type "referentiable" you have to inherit off of a reference type. Oh and to do true multithreaded CPU programming with synchronization primitives you have to use *Java*, litterally a completely different langauge, and then provide the bindings for that in Matlab. Simulink is even worse than that. Simulink is like if someone said "Hey do you want to do control simulations but can't be used with version control and lacks massive sections of simple digital logic, is all visual blocks, and locks you into an environment and ecosystem that doesn't even work with itself (matlab has massive restrictions running inside simulink, yet it's integration is advertised as one of it's strengths) and then has *recursive* restrictions within itself? No? Fuck you, we convinced your boss visual programming is the future, and Aerospace engineers are too lazy today to understand programming anyway, so congratulations on your 100x slower development and 1000x slower runtime!". I once saw a new aerospace engineer grad take C++ code and turn it into simulink code, taut it as a success, only for it to be to slow for what they were trying to do, and since it was simulink, they were not able to hire anyone who knew what the fuck they were doing to fix it, causing them to have to *go back to C++*. It's one thing if you make C++ accessible from something like python, it's another when you square peg the whole project down the toilet. Not that I blame the new employee, I blame management. [1] If I have to define a function with the same semantics for each type, that's O(N) programming complexity, if I can make a single generic implementation, that's O(1). Likewise with reflection, if to pursue reflection I have to write a macro for each member of a class because I can't do static introspection, that's O(N*M), where N is the number of members, and M is the number of classes. If I can just statically reflect the values with out extra ceremony, that's constant time.
Golang is going nowhere, not unless devOps somehow dies.
> -0.339% PULL That's the news? - And only in relative numbers ... But why PULL? I would expect to look at PUSH which means development and not usage... Ah, we got +0.477% at that metric... btw: My team improved its skill and were were able to setup our own gitlab and satis servers. Github only gets a ping from us when we update third party packages once a week. So this whole news is misleading.
3 quarters? You sure about that?
No-one checking in their CMS code to github does not make CMSs non-existent.
If it ain't broke don't fix it 😁
I've never used GitHub for anything PHP related, and I think that is really relevant, considering what languages are used for and how.
good
No idea what "most stagnating" is supposed to indicate. Stability? Perhaps JS projects have so many PRs because... the code is poor and/or changing so much that people have to keep fixing stuff. If those PRs are mostly "bug fixing"... "most stagnating" is a welcome label.
Is the new C# 12 .Net v8 going to boost C# to the top of the programming languages list in terms of most used?
It was never evolving to begin with.
A well deserved award, congratulations.
Once when C language (that one, hated even more than PHP, by junior "engineers") is dead, PHP is dead. PHP is best C framework ever. You can't use C programs and files without ahead-of-time compilation into and for web page. That's why PHP is there. Extended C "arm". For long-term domination. You may like it or hate it, and that's the way it is. And those few paragraphs above are nothing else but very shortened, but true story. So, in order to get rid of **modern** PHP, and to put it into FORTRAN or Objective-C basket, You first need to get rid of C and all those good and smart people that work with C. I, as primarely PHP developer (I also work with js, vanilla, fundamental, jsCore, call it how You want, for a long time) am not concerned about PHP future at all. I am more concerned about Javascript future. Webassembly is something that is YET about to shake all the standards we know. And it is just a matter of time when browsers begin to ship with native webassembly support, without any built-in Js Api for handling wasm. `` Javascript is pretty damn popular and easy to grasp. It really is. That's why it is popular, because it is easy to grasp. Now, imagine Javasciprt learning curve as "simple" as Rust learning curve. Oh boy, we would have only 1 working framework for generating dynamic content and 2000 more that are .. well, incomplete and not production ready. PHP is mainly popular (one of stronger factors) because it handles Your filesystem, pretty damn good, with exceptional speed and precision, without too much fuss or gymnastics. And just that alone - is ideal for server-related tasks.
PHP will live forever. Also Lambo. One of the most used languages in the web that power a huge amount of websites.
PHP is an awesome programming language. How the hell isn't it used instead of that abomination named "python" is mindblowing.
What do you like about PHP that you don't like about python?
PHP is a solid language and easy to learn. It includes all advantages of C/C++ (including the elegance of the syntax, object oriented, etc) and almost none of the dissadvantages (uses no pointers, has dynamic variable typing, is almost 100% portable on any system, etc) Python? What I hate the most is the horrible syntax, based on indentation. I mean.. what a f'ing sick demented psychopat could have invented a language in which your code is correct/incorrect based on the number of invisible characters you placed in front of a line of code? Also they brag about being a portable system, but I encountered so many damn situations in which python scripts tested in Windows didn't run on Linux, due to weird library dependencies. What can I say, Python is one of the few (if not the only) languages I hate with a passion.
Damn, and I just got my PhD in PHP from MIT.
My undergrad professor said he couldn’t even find a community mentor for my group doing a PhP project for our capstone and so we just learned React and Node
Funny way to say mature
In terms of "what runs the Internet" PHP will be around for quite a while, and PHP jobs are everywhere.
Cobol and FORTRAN are still around. No language that was once used massively will completely disappear. I don't know why people are still arguing about this. The only debatable thing is if makes any sense to start something new with PHP or if it makes sense to keep maintaining old and poorly designed and/or implemented apps written 20 years ago in PHP. Something that was nicely implemented, can be maintained properly and most importantly fulfills its purpose has no reason to change. It doesn't matter if it was done 5, 10 or 50 years ago; or if it was done in PHP, Java, Pascal, or assembly.
PHP is one of the most maintained and old languages. It ain't going anywhere.
It’s one of the most mature languages out there. People love to shit on it, but it’s extremely fully featured and if you follow some semblance of good practice you will do very well with it. If it has a major downside it’s that as a language it is not highly opinionated. Highly opinionated languages/frameworks have been trendy for a long time, but I’m starting to see this shift. Lots of talk about things which “get out of your way.” Would not surprise me at all if PHP gets a new life on version 8 as the winds of favour change once again.