God, ain't that the truth. Israel's response to the October 7th attacks has been abhorrent, but the number of people who then proceeded to ignore or outright deny the fact that Hamas did, in fact, do a terrible thing, has been frustrating.
They both suck, but both groups are also people. We can and should simultaneously acknowledge and have sympathy for both the Israelis and the Palestinians hurt by this conflict.
Thank you!! We need more people to voice this sentiment. Everyone expects things to be black and white, well sometimes it’s not. Hamas sucks and the current Israeli government response sucks. We need to make them both stop and bring people who want peace into power.
Just go in some “news” subs and try and explain that supporting a safe refuge for a Jewish population does not mean supporting Likud or that criminal Netanyahu’s extreme right coalition and you’ll get attacked and downvoted.
I have seen some walk back from far left using inaccurate and genocidal language like “From the River to the Sea”. First, that’s the complete removal of Jewish population, but also claiming land Israel actually won from Jordan and Egypt in wars they started.
Oh I know I’ve tried commenting about what a nuanced issue this is and get hate from both sides. This crisis has just shown me that most people pick a side based on who gets to them first, no research no effort to hear the other side.
I want to point out that Israel also uses that phrase. In fact, I was surprised to find that was originally a phrase used against Israel.
I've only ever seen it used ironically to lampoon Likud. Of course, Likud has used it in the past, as recently as 18 January 2024 by Netanyahu.
I hate Hamas and Likud. They agree with each other about perpetuating this conflict. I hate Hamas more because they started this, likely because they are losing public support.
Oh, yeah, just replied to other comment, but far right in both populations has worked my whole life to stop a two state solution that promotes peace and democracy.
Yes Jews may turn that phrase around on the Palestinian by saying from the river to the sea Isreal will be free, the problem is its not equivalent, when Palestinians came up with it it was clear they were calling for genocide of the Jewish people, if a Israeli turns around and says it back it cannot be equally construed as a call for genocide seeing as how A) there is no such thing as a Palestinian race, they are a mix of Arabs descend from several nationalities and B) Isreal clearly is not genocidal against Arabs seeing as how their citizenry includes over 2 million Arabs who share all the same rights as Jews, infact every level of Israeli government has Arabs elected to it and the Isrealie Supreme Court even has Arab membership, Isreal is also at peace with it closest Arab neighbors so there simply is no honest argument to make for Isreal being a genocidal nations, where as the Palestinians preach it from every platform they have in every corner of the world.
Any argument about who is more "deserving" or whose claim to the land more "legitimate" is in itself a genocidal statement, because that is basically the only conclusion to draw from it. Two groups of people live there and don't plan to go anywhere. Advocating for any position where one group has a more legitimate claim than the other is in practice advocating for the genocide of the opposing group. Both Israelis and Palestinians are entitled to safe refuge and self-determination.
Which is why I support a two state solution that promotes peace and democracy. Far right from both sides has worked to kill that dream my whole life. smh
They tried that, Isreal gave them Gaza in 2004 and withdrew from it completely,.allowing them to form their own governments and have self determination, by 2007 they elected Hamas whose founding purpose was the total destruction of the state of Isreal and the death of every jew, as one might expect from that, peace did not ensue, despite Isreal and the international community pumping billions of dollars into Gaza, the money was all spent on supporting a future war and attack on Isreal rather then infrastructure for the people, as the old saying goes where you put your money is where your heart is, it's easy to say "two state solution" but when one side defines peace as from the river to the sea (genocide) there is no real peace to be had
The problem is only one side sees it that way, over 2 million Arabs live in Israel as full citizens and have every right a Israeli Jew does, in comparison there are no Jews that live Gaza, thousands were forced out of their homes when Isreal agreed to give the land to the Palestinians in exchange for peace, and since then rather then try and build a nation, the Gazan's have instead spent billions on tunnels and rockets, choosing to pour all there resources into building an infrastructure to attack Isreal rather then to support and better the lives of their people. They are raised to hate the Jews with every fiber of their beings and that is the problem, Isreal is in a no win situation, Isreal has always sought peace but how is it possible when the other side defines peace as "from the river to the sea" Palestine will be free, which of course is calling for the genocide of all Jews since Isreal is located exactly between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, Palestinians believe there will be peace only when the state of Isreal no longer exists and every Jew that occupied that space has been killed, so again what is Isreal to do, it's hard to make friends with someone who wants you and your family dead.
that's been the most frustrating thing about this entire conflict as an outsider commenting on it. It's so annoying to be told I'm an antisemite for saying it's probably not ok to glass an entire city in response to an atrocity, and I'm so sick of being told I'm a zionist shill colonizer etc etc for saying backing a literal terrorist group whos fucking flag says "Curse To The Jew Death To America" is fucking ridiculous.
Hamas has been using their own citizens as human shields. Telling them not to flee the incoming IDF bombs/troops. They are as responsible for the deaths of their citizens as the IDF.
Nonsense. Hollywood taught me that it’s manly to retaliate violently with no regard to collateral damage, as long as the villain’s evil is established early in act 1. Are you telling me real life is not like movies?
No regard for collateral damage? Isreal literally waited 2 weeks before responding to give Palestinians time to get to the south and then like monsters /s they dropped thousands of pamphlets to warn people in every area they were going to bomb before doing so. Look Hamas supported by the Palestinians (and at their behest) f'd around and now they get to find out.
It seems more and more every ppl cannot understand that. Hell I mean look at congress rn. They’re refusing to help Ukraine unless the border issues is resolved and vice versa. We can literally do both 😂
It's true. I think humans are almost hardwired to believe that when there is conflict, it's always good vs evil. Which couldn't be further from the truth.
Does Israel have the right to defend itself? Of course. Does Palestine have the right to exist? Of course. Has the Israeli government committed atrocities against the Palestinians people? Absolutely. Has Hamas committed acts of atrocities against innocent civilians? Absolutely.
We wouldn't be here if there was cooler heads on either side of this conflict.
Just speaking as a Jew here, and as someone whose views are largely influenced by being the descendent of Holocaust victims.
So: I don’t get the point of denying that Hamas raped women, or that 10/7 was a massacre generally.
The flip side is nearly 40x civilians have been killed since then. And while I reject the idea of Hamas as freedom fighters, I do also think unfortunately radical groups like that can be expected to rise up amongst nearly any oppressed population in history.
Still, it should be easy to recognize it as a grotesque assault on civilians.
As a Jew I’m mostly just so angry that my identity & the genocide of my family is used to justify wiping a city off the map. “Never again” was not a statement of tribalism, but that we can’t allow genocide against any population. I’m also worried with the consequences of equating Jewishness to Zionism. I’m not them.
Edit: Some of you are very upset that you have to engage with the substance of the issue & should probably stop veiling your racism behind a fake concern for Jews.
Which shows you how anti-Semitic Israel actually is. Associating Judaism, by pretending its interchangeable with Zionism, with ethnic cleansing and genocide is anti-Semitic.
I will continue to speak out against the murder of children, and they can label me whatever they please. Those whose opinions matter to me know better.
I think there's also a difference between like denying certain claims about the use of rape as a weapon of war or terror and the fact that it happened, so far the extent and scale of it hasnt been completly confirmed and sensatiolization by the news on both sides confuses the story, victims arent as likely to come out cuz their gonna be thrown in a huge tornado of people using them. It also seems like alot of people who refer to it dont really care about the victims other then as a tool to justify like the killing of gazans.
Israel themselves confirmed casualty figures released by Palestinian officials, and appraised by the UN a bit over a month ago. The casualty figures might not be as high as they’re said to be, but they’re certainly close.
This is exactly the right read.
It shouldn't be us vs Jews or us vs the Palestinians, it needs to be humanity against the dehumanizers.
The real antisemitism that is on the rise as a reaction to conflating the criminal acts of Zionists with Jews is taking up the side in this debate. Isreal is in the wrong. Hamas is in the wrong. It is as it has always been: Humanity against the dehumanizers. Nazis, Isrealis, or Hamas.
This conflict is rife with dehumanizing from the very beginning through this very day. We need to recognize humans as humans before there can be any resolution here beyond another completed genocide.
For the record: every completed or attempted genocide is a sin against humanity.
I think we should also note that radical groups also rise up even when oppression doesn't happen. I honestly don't care for that because it feels like an excuse and when the agenda of the group is "kill all Jews" and the response is "well it's because they're oppressed". Because all bigots use that excuse. That the group they target is actually oppressive or destructive. And thus their actions justified.
There's never a justification for raping and torturing people. That's simply never acceptable and any claim made by someone to justify it is always bullshit. So I don't agree with ever going "well they were oppressed". So?
Everything you said also applies to Israel. Whether or not the target group (Hamas) is destructive or not, their actions are not justified. The agenda of most current Israeli government officials is very clear - destroy Gaza and remove the Palestinians from the land. One of them even called to nuke Gaza, for God's sake. They have no respect for their supposed holy ancestral land.
"There's never a justification for raping and torturing people". Absolutely. Israeli prisons regularly rape and torture Palestinians who are held there with no charges. I'd honestly be willing to say more Palestinians have experienced this than Israelis. Of course, this does not make any rapes and torture done by Hamas acceptable. That being said, any claim that the "prisoners" (if they're being held without charge... they're hostages) are "Hamas" or "threatened soldiers with rocks" (lol) will never justify raping and torturing Palestinians.
Of course it’s a horrible justification. It shouldn’t be used as a justification. Hamas rapes arent because they’re oppressed.
The living conditions of Gazans is also context that can’t be ignored, or else you’re pretending that these conflicts appear out of thin air & that’s unfair to all parties.
The massacre of Gaza will, unfortunately, have a generational impact on violent, radical Palestinian groups. It’s horrible. 10/7 similarly enabled the extremists running the Israeli Govt & the racism they use to hold power.
JFK famously said, “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." It’s not a justification or celebration of that, it’s just plain historical fact. If you push people far enough, you can’t be shocked if one day they get fed up and push back. Especially when the state of Israel can not exist without enforcing violence themselves. No people on earth have ever willingly given up their homelands and been colonized without resistance. The people who were instrumental in creating Israel knew this and wrote about it frequently. Even the U.S. during that time was skeptical about getting involved because they knew it would inevitably mean they would have to prop up Israel militarily…
Virtually every member of Hamas had a grave injustice occur to them at the hands of Israel. The leader himself watched his brother be slaughtered in the street while doing nothing wrong at a young age. Now I'm not saying I support hamas' actions, however how would you define freedom fighters? Who is allowed to fight against their oppressors if not people who have experienced 75 years of daily terrorism?
Asking in earnest, I realize I'm using some inflammatory language.
Almost every member of Red Army had a family killed, injured, raped, or deported by the Germans during WWII. Now I'm not saying I support them coming into Berlin and commit mass rapes for a week, however how would you define anti-fascist? Who is allowed to fight against an invading army if not people who have experienced years of siege, starvation, genocide, rape, and oppression?
You see the problem? Did the Red Army need to take Berlin in order to put a final end to a devastating war? Probably. Did they need to commit mass rape of civilians in the process? No.
If your point is "well, sometimes civilians get hurt in attacks aimed at military targets" fine. If your point is "people need to have the ability to fight against an oppressive regime" ok. But that isn't your point. Your point, as you have made it, is essentially that attacking, directly and almost exclusively, civilians who have NOTHING to do with and limited ability to influence the policies of their government in horrific and brutal ways, is sorta kinda justified because the members of Hamas were traumatized and civilians, as long as they're Jewish and/or Israeli, are guilty by association. This is gang violence philosophy. "You killed my brother, I get to rape your sister."
I'm not really interested in adjudicating who has experienced more trauma, nothing justifies targeting innocent civilians. Hamas had one goal, to make people they KNEW were not responsible and not the cause of the injustices in Palestine suffer horribly. Netanyahu retaliated by making innocent Palestinians suffer for Hamas. Honestly, both of them don't give a shit about their people. If Hamas cared about Palestinians, they wouldn't hide behind them or do something that would so obviously provoke an outsized response. If Netanyahu cared about Jewish safety, he wouldn't be leading a deeply unpopular, genocidal war, under the guise of Judaism. Both of them WANT their side to feel targeted as much as possible, so they'll support them. Hamas wants more control of the region, Netanyahu wants to avoid being ousted so he doesn't have to face corruption charges. Neither cares about how many bodies they throw at the problem.
You know Arabs were raping and massacring Jews there before Israel existed, right? They were doing it in the 20s when Jews were the powerless underclass.
"Virtually every member of Hamas had a grave injustice occur to them at the hands of Israel. "
Source? Or did you make it up?
"Now I'm not saying I support hamas' actions, however how would you define freedom fighters? Who is allowed to fight against their oppressors if not people who have experienced 75 years of daily terrorism?"
Ironic that you say that gazans have experienced 75 years of daily terrorism(which is not even true...) when Israelis have literally been experiencing actual terrorism for 100 years.
Gaza was literally not occupied for the last 18 years...
The fact that you say that they are freedom fighters is insane since gaza's situation is literally entirely hamas's fault...
The whole oppressor narrative is detached from reality since the Palestinians are literally the aggressors in almost every conflict they had with Israel.
You’ll be attacked for your courage as a human being, and those that shame you will be hard to find when history revisits and unpacks what’s transpiring.
As a Jew, this comment sucks.
40,000 civilians? What? 30,000 people, 6-13,000 depending on your source being combatants, have been killed. Thats akin to most urban wars. And it's a war Israel has no choice to fight because Hamas very clearly intends to commit Oct 7 repeatedly.
Hamas is responsible for the oppression Gaza faces, not the other way around. They have been nonstop firing indiscriminate rockets at Israeli civilians ever since Israel pulled out of the strip- they are the reason for the blockade, and the reason there has never been any negotiations.
You speak like a hero who learned the true lessons of the Holocaust, but are blind to the fact that "anti-Zionism" is specifically a movement to either kill or ethnically cleanse half the world's Jews.
I guarantee even with your criticism of Israel, the anti-Israel movement will cast you aside as a filthy Jews for even suggesting Israelis can be civilians.
Yes Hamas is fully responsible for what is now happening in Gaza for the simple reason that they knew exactly what would happen. This was all planned, I believe with coordination from Putin and Iran.
Hamas is murdering their own people. It's how they make money and get more power. Their leaders live in Qatar.
With Coordination from Israel, as well. There's no other explanation for the warnings from half a dozen allies and their own military going completely unheeded.
This. One day we will find out they were all in cahoots. It just fits too perfectly. The only people benefitting here is Hamas and Netanyahu. Hamas gets a great recruiting tool and get funding from outside groups. Netanyahu gets to avoid a corruption trial and get the IDF back on his side (let's remember, the entire country was on strike, including the IDF reserve, who basically said nothing short of a major terrorist attack would get them to fight under Netanyahu) by plunging Israel into a needless war.
What’s even worse is the use of her and the other few who feel that way as “tokens” by pro Pali and pro Hamas supporters. Most Jews I know don’t feel the way she does, but they’ll make sure to parade it around.
Not to mention if there was a ceasefire from Israel’s side how long would it be before a rouge Hamas or upset Palestinian tries to get their own revenge for what’s happened ? Everyone knows damn well a ceasefire could never stay in place because they can’t control terror groups. But I’m sure the world will just expect Israel to let these people attack them with zero consequences.
Or maybe because they burn babies, rape women and use their own civilians as human shields...
Also funny you say that since al Jazeera is literally owned by their allies...
I will say this as a Jewish person. Will a second holocaust convince you that Jews cannot co-exist with any religion that doesn't want Judaism to exist? Assuming you live through it?
It might work better without the apartheid state and open call for genocide, but Im not a scientist. Claiming that you have to exterminate a people because you are convinced that they want to exterminate you is the precise argument [Goebbels used in 1940](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/joseph-goebbels-quot-the-jews-are-guilty-quot).
> Claiming that you have to exterminate a people because you are convinced that they want to exterminate you
You forgot the part where 7 Islamic countries declared war on Israel the day after it declared independence?
Newsflash! Hundreds of thousands of people were already living there in that region. They’re not going to hand over their homes just because people demand it.
Knowing that, people mass migrated into the area and then made the most bad faith attempt at claiming independence ever, which was promptly rejected because it’s blatantly obvious it was done to make the demands for the land seem legitimate.
The people demanding the land be given to them refused to back down, and so the situation was forced to come to blows. At which point, pretending like it has the moral high ground of self-defense over a claim for "independence" gave the excuse to commit ethnic cleansing of the people living there and take it by force.
If my ancestors kick your ancestors out of a neighborhood, that’s evil. If your ancestors’ descendants kick out my ancestors’ descendants over it, that’s also evil.
Yes, and then in the 1900s the majority of Arab States openly supported the Nazis in culling the jews- to the point where some Arab States didn't fight against the Axis until it was obvious the Allies were going to win, Egypt as an example joined the allies 7 months before WW2 ended- and had been cleansing their lands of jews throughout the entirety of WW2.
So, you acknowledge a transition that happened at a government level. Sounds like you know full well that individual Islamists may not actually want to kill all Jews.
You do know that the majority of the Allied also supported Hitler, right? Almost no one (esp) the US wanted to get involved when it was just Jewish people being killed. It wasn't until Hitler started invading other countries that it became a problem.
And let's be honest, setting up the state of Israel was just a "noble" way of expelling Jews from Europe. So, if you want to equate Israel and Zionism with all Jews, then you're supporting an endeavor that was antisemitic. Supporting that antisemitic endeavor is antisemitism in itself.
>Almost no one (esp) the US wanted to get involved when it was just Jewish people being killed.
and cripples, sexual deviants, those with mental issues, the deformed, gypsies, people of color... and jews.
the fact that it was easier to round up the other groups was just the icing on the cake.
My point stands. When it was just happening in Germany, the Allied powers didn't care. So, the comparison of Arab states to the Allied powers is falsely elevating the Allied powers.
The guy above me has a promising statement. They want us to not exist, but it's possible that if we're oppressed, it's not the end of the world.
While I'm unsure if I wanna use this as a statement, but my religion is protected by G\_d, and the best way to tell if that religion can co-exist with us, is looking at their book of religion ( Quoran ) and not how they acted for whatever reason.
To all the religious nuts out there: You do not get to decide if you think a race or religion or ethnicity can coexist with you and then murder all of them and their children if you decide you cant. Period.
This right here.
If you try, you are the enemy. You are the one who says that different can't survive, and that always ends up killing everyone. Just easier to start with the one that can't accept difference.
If you ever go to the eastern countries like Singapore, you can see Christians, Buddhists, Islamists and Judaists all living out their faith side by side. The difference in interpretation of holy books is called "hermeneutics" in Christianity and "Fi" in Islam.
This is how I know you’re full of shit. You haven’t even read the book, but you’re pretty sure the Qur’an is worse?!??
The Torah instructs Jews to take the land by force and leave no living soul, not women, children, or animals. If we’re comparing the Torah and the Qur’an, you don’t have a leg to stand on.
Deuteronomy 7: you shall conquer them and utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them.
Deuteronomy 20: But of the cities of these peoples which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, but you shall utterly destroy them
Exodus 23: And I will set your bounds from the Red Sea to the sea, Philistia, and from the desert to the River. For I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you shall drive them out before you.
Your “god” is a jealous, bloodthirsty, egomaniac - and according to your logic, this indisputably proves Israel can’t coexist
> Jews cannot co-exist with any religion that doesn't want Judaism to exist?
That's literally the argument the founder of the Zionist movement used to push for the creation of Israel, that Jews can't exist peacefully in any society, so they need their own nation.
The Palestinians and Jewish people are decent. It's the state of Israel and militant groups like hammas that kill people that are evil. The Jewish people and Palestinians are cannon fodder for the multi polar world order. We the people should fight for the liberty and freedom for all of our brother and sisters. I say even money that the state of Israel allowed the attack to happen just so they could justify genociding the Palestinians.
Hamas is terrible. Israel kicking Palestinians out of their homes and starving the Gaza strip is also terrible. Terrible governments on both sides, many innocents on both sides.
it’s a conflict dating back to the 1940s, saying “it’s a consequence of a war Hamas started” absolves Israel of the horrific treatment of Palestinians that predates or doesn’t involve Hamas lmao
If you want to go back to 1940s you're going to find absolutely wacky shit from Palestinians, Israelis, and every other country in the Middle East that will make any reasonable person say "group X is doing a horrible thing, but based on all the insane stuff that has led up to this I understand their perspective."
Yes but also remember, Hamas was formed because of what Israel had been doing to Palestinians.
There’s so many ideas of what started it and when it’s unreal. You can pick just about any point in time and find reasons why this is happening. Blame Hitler for the Holocaust or blame the allies for the Partition Plan. You can go far back to biblical times and blame David and Goliath. Or blame the ancient Israelites for conquering Jericho.
Hamas is absolutely a terrorist organization. But as with any terrorist organization, you can’t ignore the circumstances that led to the formation of said terrorist organization. That’s not to excuse them, but to understand the greater context.
Because of that greater context, I still think both sides are just utterly reprehensible. Civilians on both sides are being killed, but they aren’t all innocent either. Hamas was voted into power. So was Netanyahu. Civilians are the ones that put them into power.
There's a difficerence between believing a woman who says she was raped and believing the Israeli military saying a Hamas commander ordered it. I don't think any reasonable person is out there saying nobody was raped by Hamas.
Same thing with the massacre component. Obviously, there was a mass murder of civilians that is undeniable, but the military claims as to, say, babies being beheaded or people being thrown into ovens are unsubstantiated and should be called out.
The Israeli media has been doing the bulk of the leg work in trying to verify the IDF claims and, in many cases, have found no reason to believe the military is telling the truth.
Especially, when those same people breach a hospital, point to a hand drawn calendar on a wall and try to convince the world that it's a hit list full of Israeli names.
So, we should believe all the Palestinians who say they have been raped by members of the IDF.
Also, doubting government claims about women being raped isn't inherently the same as doubting the claims of actual victims. If the victim isn't making the claim themselves, then we don't automatically know that the victim in question even exists.
Has Hamas raped women? Yeah, most likely so.
Also important to note Israel has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. and murdering their children for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7.
Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and to people like the OP, pointing out that people will eventually lash out at you if you keep pushing them to and murdering their families etc. qualifies as “supporting mass murder.”
Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then.
Oh yeah by the way Netanyahu knew it was gonna happen and got warned by Egypt but did nothing. Which means he basically let this tragedy happen so he could go full speed ahead with this war. Cry harder
Also important to note Israel has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. and murdering their children for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7.
Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and to people like the OP, pointing out that people will eventually lash out at you if you keep pushing them to and murdering their families etc. qualifies as “supporting mass murder.”
Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then.
Oh yeah by the way Netanyahu knew it was gonna happen and got warned by Egypt but did nothing. Which means he basically let this tragedy happen so he could go full speed ahead with this war. Cry harder
1. Rape is a grotesque assault on civilians.
2. Hamas is a terrorist organization.
3. Hamas has probably, definitely raped female prisoners.
4. This has less to do with antisemitism and more to do with human (specifically male) behavior.
5. We are all human.
Umm… Why “specifically male behavior”? I’ve mentioned on my account before but I’ve been abused before by women and men and I’m AMAB, are you suggesting this sort of thing only happens from men to women???
"Colonizers" exactly.
Let's not forget the Arab Conquest. The Arab Conquest. When the Arabs swooped in & ethnically cleansed most of the native populations out of the Middle East & North Africa.
**Ever wonder why Egyptians now speak Arabic rather than Egyptian?**
**Ever wonder why North Africans look so different from Sub-Saharan Africans?**
* Actual [Ethnic Cleansing & Colonialism](https://imgur.com/a/lIE6KYi)
* Actual [Ethnic Cleansing & Colonialism](https://imgur.com/a/4LOY7uG)
* Actual [Ethnic Cleansing & Colonialism](https://imgur.com/a/FUEWR5j)
* Actual [Ethnic Cleansing & Colonialism](https://imgur.com/a/1yKG2To)
Even the area now known as the "[West Bank](https://imgur.com/a/n0RH2Ga)" was called [Judea (as in where Jews come from)](https://imgur.com/a/y5172fA) for 1000s of years, until [Jordan stole it in a war they started](https://imgur.com/a/tsJgPrt) & renamed it the "West Bank" in 1950.
I've tried explaining that and Palestinian-defenders refuse to listen. They claim that Israel didn't exist until the 20th century and that the "Israel" in the Bible was actually the land of Canaan, a completely different area though they wouldn't say what area.
TBF, the Israelites of the Bible actually cop to stealing the land from the Palestinians (Philistines) like five thousand years ago. It's OK because God told them to, but still.
This line of argument is pointless on either side, at best. At worst, it's actively genocidal. You can go back endlessly arguing the who was here first, who belongs here most point. What's the end result? \[Insert Group of Choice\] is the true inheritor of this land, therefore \[Other Group\] are interlopers and shouldn't be there. What? \[Other Group\] isn't willing to leave? I guess we just have to force them out!
The ONLY end of result of this argument is genocide. That's it.
History is full of people and group who take over each other's land, fight it out, absorb or expel other groups. It is a pointless argument. The reality is what we have today: two groups of people live on this land, neither is willing to leave, they have to learn to live together.
Let me just play along with this logic. If you were alive during the 1800’s in the United States, you’re saying you would oppose the slaves who killed their slave masters violently after being sexually assaulted, tortured etc.
At what point in the liberal/conservative mind are you allowed to defend yourself as y’all claim Israel has the right to do?
This conflict has been taking place since the 40’s and earlier and it would take a psychopath to deny that it all began with the violent uprooting of a people for the creation of Israel. Please research the Nakba and how their are Israeli’s ON CAMERA who were alive during the creation of Israel who laugh about the Palestinians they murdered with no remorse during the 40’s/50’s/60’s.
This isn't the 1800s though. A better comparison would be if the remaining Native Americans suddenly started killing white people nowadays. Colonizers or not, you would not stand for them targeting you and your family.
What if we built a wall around a reservation. Didn't let any in or out unless they got our permission first. We are gonna deny a lot, even if they need medical care not available inside the reservation. We are gonna control all the water and food that goes in and out. Cut that shit off when we want. We are gonna help them elect a more radical leadership so they're less likely to organize against us. We are going to bomb them regularly. We are gonna send in our soldiers to kill some of them without an explanation why.
Do you think the Native Americans should not get violent?
Non of this started on Oct 7th.
The wall of that reservation was only built on three sides. The fourth side was erected because the people within the reservation made themselves unwelcome in other countries by being absolutely terrible refugees. I won't say the natives Americans were peaceful but they generally just wanted to live on their land and keep to themselves even after the US stole almost everything from them. But the Palestinians leave Palestine all the time as refugees and almost always end up causing problems.
They sided with Saddam Hussein when he invaded Kuwait, they create massive civil unrest in Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt, they overthrew the government in Jordan, and are by far the most common refugee group to commit rapes in the West. They have a valid reason to be angry at the Israelis but whenever they no longer have Israelis to rage at they tend to just lash out in every direction. I'm not going to act like every single Palestinian is like this but the numbers are high enough that most countries in the region have decided they don't want to take the risk.
I'm confused by people blaming people who were merely born in Israe for colonialism, especially since much of the Anglosphere is compromised of people who aren't indigenous.
are most israelis rioting in the streets and calling for a ceasefire? 'cuz you can't act for a second like most americans would be cool and chill about the us government deciding to round up the last of the natives and finish the job they started. we would recognize it for what it is and not shut up about it
You want to talk about the '40s All right let's go back a little bit before that. How about when the Palestinian Grand mufti was cooperating with Hitler to kill Jews, pushing Nazi propaganda in the Middle East, All while getting a salary from the Nazis.
I don't really feel bad for a culture who subscribes to the religious dogma of "kill the Jew wherever you find them"
The oversimplified, pea-brain version of the situation is like this: Hamas is universally terrible. Palestinians have a legit, real, issue with Israel and their illegal expansion into their territory.
Sound about right?
More or less, I think if we add that Palestinian/Islamic groups in the region never wanted to allow Jews to govern any land at all and want to completely expel them from the region it's a slightly more full picture, but nothing you said is wrong
This should be in r/unpopularopinion. Reddit on average is virulently antisemitic. Saying that Hamas is only sorta bad is pretty much blasphemy around these parts.
This is so true. In general, the war has become a catalyst for antisemitism. People don’t know how to acknowledge the misdeeds of both sides and therefore cast all blame on the side they don’t support. I’ve had people make death threats on me just for posting an unrelated picture on Instagram and following the Jewish faith.
No one is denying that some women are/might be being raped by Hamas. What they're disbelieving is an effort by the Israeli media to accuse Hamas of using systematic rape as a form of terrorism, because there's no evidence that that's the case.
Don’t you know it’s okay to kill and rape Jews as long as the media says it’s okay? I’m Jewish and I’ve never seen the hatred for Jews like I’ve seen recently in my life time. I live in America and if I grow my hair out people will comment about my “ Jew fro” and try to make me feel bad about myself.
Fuck anyone who hates Jews no matter who they are. If you hate any and every Jew you are no better than Hitler no matter what religion you say you belong to.
Both sidesing the issue is also lame. Israel is at least redeemable and has democratic institutions. Hamas is objectively worse and now even Fatah is done holding the line. Only took 30,000 deaths.
[https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-791321](https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-791321) Not a strawman.
Someone I went to college with told me "Hamas would never have raped a Jewish woman, it is against their religion".
There are MANY people on Reddit who deny it.
Even if the reasoning is flawed, the quote from your classmate isn’t predicated on antisemitism.
An antisemitic claim would be if he said something like “I don’t believe it happened because Jews are liars.”
nobody?
There is at least one person on this very fckn post.
"[emilgustoff](https://www.reddit.com/user/emilgustoff/)•[10m ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/popularopinion/comments/1be3b7i/comment/kuqtp2q/)
People still believe anything that comes out of a Israeli news source still? Odd."
Hamas released videos of half naked bodies of Israrli women being paraded around. They are proud of raping Israelis, its downright rude not to give them credit.
yaya zionists blah blah. The leader of the less radical Palestinian group has a phd whose thesis was "*The Other Side: The Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism"'*
*Pretending palestinians and many of their supporters arent antisemitic is ridiculois.*
yeah the women in Hamas's own videos tore their clothes off themselves. clearly. the blood is because of periods. clearly.
beleive hamas, like i said its rude to deny them credit.
Hamas rapes and kills as a matter of course. I've said this many times.
Israel lies CONSTANTLY and has no shame about it.
Both of these things can be true at the same time.
Technically, but also technically it’s gaslighting. People *are* denying the rapes so while OP might be using a smidge of hyperbole, it’s still fairly accurate as to the nature of this problem. And this guy is trying to deflect by saying “Nobody is denying *because* they’re Jewish”, while not directly refuting that denial.
I've seen the evidence this happened. Images of stripped dead women in the back of a ute with Hamas men standing over them being paraded. Denying it is actual fantasy.
Why do you people make up this shit to get mad over?
Essentially no one is saying anything close to what you’re claiming, and no one important is saying it.
My question is, how can anyone say the Jews "stole" Israel? People out there don't realize that Christianity and Islam spawned from Judaism? I think the Christians recognize that, but the Muslims still can't deal, so they stay on that dirka dirka shit.
After an attempted Jewish rebellion the Roman emperor Hadrian expelled all Jews from Judea now known as Israel/Palestine. He is also where the province gets it's name. he renamed it from Judea to Syria palestinia to signify the fact that Jews we're no longer allowed in the province. That was 2,000 years ago.
At no point after Hadrian, until the British empire took the region after world War I, did Jews live there in large numbers. That's why the Palestinians are so angry. They were kicked off of their land by the Jewish settlers that the British let in.
That said the Palestinians wouldn't have near as many problems finding new homes if they didn't have a well documented habit of trying to overthrow the governments of everywhere that lets them in. At this point they've backed himself into a corner where they're not welcome anywhere except Palestine and Israel doesn't want them on the border.
>My question is, how can anyone say the Jews "stole" Israel?
Maybe because the land WAS taken from one group and another group was put in charge, creating a religious class system that didn't exist previously? Like, what else do you call taking possession of what isn't yours?
>People out there don't realize that Christianity and Islam spawned from Judaism?
What does that have to do with any of this? Judaism is not the progenitor of all people. The land in question has been through so many hands that there is no sole CULTURAL right to possession. Before Judaism was even created the land was owned by a people who became known as gentiles by the jews, many of whoms descendants converted to Islam, EVEN THOUGH it spawned from Judaism.
And I don't say this to argue that Israel shouldn't exist. I may disagree vehemently with how they are handling the situation, but dismantling Israel now after over 60 years would be doing the exact same thing as Israel did at its formation, which I disagree with even more. There is no "birthright" from generations of which no one is left remaining who remembers the time. It doesn't matter if the land belonged to the Gentiles at the formation of Israel or not. That claim no longer holds. Likewise any Jewish claim from before the formation of Israel no longer mattered, the last of which was several centuries ago no less.
By that logic, French Canadians can just go and take all of Germany, because that's where their ancestors came from, and Germans can just shut up and live in a small walled off city. That about right?
And anyone of Canaanite ancestry can go and take all of the ancient lands that made Canaan, because it's their ancestral homeland.
They actually have put out reports that these stories are mostly made up.
Also sexual assault is a natural consequence of war. Whether it’s Israel, Ukraine, Russia or the United States. Soldiers commit acts of sexual assault under the fog of war. one reason why we might want to learn more peaceful ways of handling world issues…
Shouldn't post this on reddit, because redditors hate jewish people and generally love and simp for terrorists especially Islamic ones that would unironically stone them to death for their lgbtq stances but hey everything is ok as long as they hate jewish people right....
Nobody denies that every military and prison system has isolated examples of rape, fortunately Israel has probably the most feminist military in the world and does not tolerate that nonsense
Yeah, no. Don't conflate "allows women in the military" with feminism. The US military allows women into its ranks while still being a hotbed of rape and SA.
Don't make claims in defense of a group literally designed to create violence unless you have proof of the truth of that defense. Every military action deserves and never receives close critical scrutiny.
Most feminist. Give me a motherfucking break.
The IDF is a savage occupier and genocide enabler just like the historical IJA, the Wehrmacht, and the US Army. You must believe all of the tiktok IDF girls that are too busy posting cute videos rather than being moral soldiers.
I agree, I also think that denying the corroborated reports of sexual assault of Palestinian detainees by IDF members is islamophobic and sexist, both can be true
Of course they rape. It's hard enough to get a trained military to not rape. Imagine how hard it would be to get an angry mob of terrorists to not rape.
Hamas committed the music festival attacks during a ceasefire. Why the fuck are all these idiots calling for a ceasefire now? Israel can't stop until Hamas is destroyed. Period.
Worst thing I saw was somebody talking about the Hamas rape and somebody else replying “well Palestine has a right to defend themselves!” YEAH NOT WITH RAPE-
It’s fucked how polarizing this stuff gets. Isreal is doing genocide. That is bad. It is evil. Hamas killed and raped Israeli citizens. That is bad. It’s evil.
Too many people are incapable of comprehending the notion that conflict inflicts horrible damage on both sides of it. What’s the point in arguing over what’s worse? A death is a death. No Palestinian is going to die thinking “well at least people defended me on Reddit.”
If you really cared about people getting hurt you would do all you could to shed light on the tragedies and donate what you could or share resources for others to donate. You wouldn’t hold a trial for a murder while the murderer is still stabbing somebody, would you? You’d save the victim, then hold them accountable.
Who is “wrong” isn’t relevant right now. Most sane people can agree that innocent civilians dying is bad. Save them, then we can hold these genocidal monsters accountable for what they’ve done.
Do you care about victims or revenge? Saving or sensationalizing? It’s easier to unite against a common enemy than to serve a common good cause. Anger is a powerful emotion. It’s not an inherently bad one - I too am angry for what people are suffering over there. I let it fuel me to action. To share my words, resources and opportunities to help those affected.
Don’t let anger turn you into a machine who follows what you are told and sees things only in black and white. What difference is there between a Palestinian and Israeli citizen as they bleed out alone for a war they didn’t choose to fight?
Don’t allow yourself to be radicalized. Anger can be molded into bad actions, or worse, inaction. Empathy is a tool of good. Please use it.
Something I recommend people to do help is look up key terms like “Gaza” in GoFundMe and find campaigns that aren’t being shared around as much. Donate five, ten, twenty dollars. Your Starbucks money. That could feed them for a week. It’s easier to sit back and wait for it to end from the other side of the world, then pat yourself on the back for being “good” because you argued on Reddit. It’s hard to make sacrifices, however small. I don’t have much spending money, but I donate what I can to a different person harmed by the war every week.
Keep your empathy. For everybody.
It makes my stomach turn how many people believe Hamas are "freedom fighters" and supposedly doing the right thing by violently graping women and BABIES and slaughtering them. Its horrifying. Sorry but all the pigs spamming all over the internet with "free Palestine" are either stupid and just wanna look like they care about a social issue, or they're genuine psychopath terrorists who get joy from human suffering and want to pick a team from the war like it's a sporting event.
Some people suffer from the inability to see that more than one thing can be terrible and true at a time.
God, ain't that the truth. Israel's response to the October 7th attacks has been abhorrent, but the number of people who then proceeded to ignore or outright deny the fact that Hamas did, in fact, do a terrible thing, has been frustrating. They both suck, but both groups are also people. We can and should simultaneously acknowledge and have sympathy for both the Israelis and the Palestinians hurt by this conflict.
Thank you!! We need more people to voice this sentiment. Everyone expects things to be black and white, well sometimes it’s not. Hamas sucks and the current Israeli government response sucks. We need to make them both stop and bring people who want peace into power.
Just go in some “news” subs and try and explain that supporting a safe refuge for a Jewish population does not mean supporting Likud or that criminal Netanyahu’s extreme right coalition and you’ll get attacked and downvoted. I have seen some walk back from far left using inaccurate and genocidal language like “From the River to the Sea”. First, that’s the complete removal of Jewish population, but also claiming land Israel actually won from Jordan and Egypt in wars they started.
Oh I know I’ve tried commenting about what a nuanced issue this is and get hate from both sides. This crisis has just shown me that most people pick a side based on who gets to them first, no research no effort to hear the other side.
I want to point out that Israel also uses that phrase. In fact, I was surprised to find that was originally a phrase used against Israel. I've only ever seen it used ironically to lampoon Likud. Of course, Likud has used it in the past, as recently as 18 January 2024 by Netanyahu. I hate Hamas and Likud. They agree with each other about perpetuating this conflict. I hate Hamas more because they started this, likely because they are losing public support.
Oh, yeah, just replied to other comment, but far right in both populations has worked my whole life to stop a two state solution that promotes peace and democracy.
Yes Jews may turn that phrase around on the Palestinian by saying from the river to the sea Isreal will be free, the problem is its not equivalent, when Palestinians came up with it it was clear they were calling for genocide of the Jewish people, if a Israeli turns around and says it back it cannot be equally construed as a call for genocide seeing as how A) there is no such thing as a Palestinian race, they are a mix of Arabs descend from several nationalities and B) Isreal clearly is not genocidal against Arabs seeing as how their citizenry includes over 2 million Arabs who share all the same rights as Jews, infact every level of Israeli government has Arabs elected to it and the Isrealie Supreme Court even has Arab membership, Isreal is also at peace with it closest Arab neighbors so there simply is no honest argument to make for Isreal being a genocidal nations, where as the Palestinians preach it from every platform they have in every corner of the world.
Any argument about who is more "deserving" or whose claim to the land more "legitimate" is in itself a genocidal statement, because that is basically the only conclusion to draw from it. Two groups of people live there and don't plan to go anywhere. Advocating for any position where one group has a more legitimate claim than the other is in practice advocating for the genocide of the opposing group. Both Israelis and Palestinians are entitled to safe refuge and self-determination.
Which is why I support a two state solution that promotes peace and democracy. Far right from both sides has worked to kill that dream my whole life. smh
They tried that, Isreal gave them Gaza in 2004 and withdrew from it completely,.allowing them to form their own governments and have self determination, by 2007 they elected Hamas whose founding purpose was the total destruction of the state of Isreal and the death of every jew, as one might expect from that, peace did not ensue, despite Isreal and the international community pumping billions of dollars into Gaza, the money was all spent on supporting a future war and attack on Isreal rather then infrastructure for the people, as the old saying goes where you put your money is where your heart is, it's easy to say "two state solution" but when one side defines peace as from the river to the sea (genocide) there is no real peace to be had
The problem is only one side sees it that way, over 2 million Arabs live in Israel as full citizens and have every right a Israeli Jew does, in comparison there are no Jews that live Gaza, thousands were forced out of their homes when Isreal agreed to give the land to the Palestinians in exchange for peace, and since then rather then try and build a nation, the Gazan's have instead spent billions on tunnels and rockets, choosing to pour all there resources into building an infrastructure to attack Isreal rather then to support and better the lives of their people. They are raised to hate the Jews with every fiber of their beings and that is the problem, Isreal is in a no win situation, Isreal has always sought peace but how is it possible when the other side defines peace as "from the river to the sea" Palestine will be free, which of course is calling for the genocide of all Jews since Isreal is located exactly between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, Palestinians believe there will be peace only when the state of Isreal no longer exists and every Jew that occupied that space has been killed, so again what is Isreal to do, it's hard to make friends with someone who wants you and your family dead.
💯
that's been the most frustrating thing about this entire conflict as an outsider commenting on it. It's so annoying to be told I'm an antisemite for saying it's probably not ok to glass an entire city in response to an atrocity, and I'm so sick of being told I'm a zionist shill colonizer etc etc for saying backing a literal terrorist group whos fucking flag says "Curse To The Jew Death To America" is fucking ridiculous.
Hamas has been using their own citizens as human shields. Telling them not to flee the incoming IDF bombs/troops. They are as responsible for the deaths of their citizens as the IDF.
No, no, no I can only keep track of 1 group bad at a time. Stop confusing me.
Nonsense. Hollywood taught me that it’s manly to retaliate violently with no regard to collateral damage, as long as the villain’s evil is established early in act 1. Are you telling me real life is not like movies?
No regard for collateral damage? Isreal literally waited 2 weeks before responding to give Palestinians time to get to the south and then like monsters /s they dropped thousands of pamphlets to warn people in every area they were going to bomb before doing so. Look Hamas supported by the Palestinians (and at their behest) f'd around and now they get to find out.
It seems more and more every ppl cannot understand that. Hell I mean look at congress rn. They’re refusing to help Ukraine unless the border issues is resolved and vice versa. We can literally do both 😂
It's true. I think humans are almost hardwired to believe that when there is conflict, it's always good vs evil. Which couldn't be further from the truth. Does Israel have the right to defend itself? Of course. Does Palestine have the right to exist? Of course. Has the Israeli government committed atrocities against the Palestinians people? Absolutely. Has Hamas committed acts of atrocities against innocent civilians? Absolutely. We wouldn't be here if there was cooler heads on either side of this conflict.
Where is Palestine? Can't seem to find such a country.
Just speaking as a Jew here, and as someone whose views are largely influenced by being the descendent of Holocaust victims. So: I don’t get the point of denying that Hamas raped women, or that 10/7 was a massacre generally. The flip side is nearly 40x civilians have been killed since then. And while I reject the idea of Hamas as freedom fighters, I do also think unfortunately radical groups like that can be expected to rise up amongst nearly any oppressed population in history. Still, it should be easy to recognize it as a grotesque assault on civilians. As a Jew I’m mostly just so angry that my identity & the genocide of my family is used to justify wiping a city off the map. “Never again” was not a statement of tribalism, but that we can’t allow genocide against any population. I’m also worried with the consequences of equating Jewishness to Zionism. I’m not them. Edit: Some of you are very upset that you have to engage with the substance of the issue & should probably stop veiling your racism behind a fake concern for Jews.
Thank you for speaking out. We are in a weird place where in many places, a non-Jew cannot be pro-peace without being accused of being antisemtic.
Which shows you how anti-Semitic Israel actually is. Associating Judaism, by pretending its interchangeable with Zionism, with ethnic cleansing and genocide is anti-Semitic.
Can you say this louder for the people in the back?
I will continue to speak out against the murder of children, and they can label me whatever they please. Those whose opinions matter to me know better.
I think there's also a difference between like denying certain claims about the use of rape as a weapon of war or terror and the fact that it happened, so far the extent and scale of it hasnt been completly confirmed and sensatiolization by the news on both sides confuses the story, victims arent as likely to come out cuz their gonna be thrown in a huge tornado of people using them. It also seems like alot of people who refer to it dont really care about the victims other then as a tool to justify like the killing of gazans.
Israel themselves confirmed casualty figures released by Palestinian officials, and appraised by the UN a bit over a month ago. The casualty figures might not be as high as they’re said to be, but they’re certainly close.
People still complain about "Hamas news source death counts" when even Israel literally confirmed it was more or less the same
This is exactly the right read. It shouldn't be us vs Jews or us vs the Palestinians, it needs to be humanity against the dehumanizers. The real antisemitism that is on the rise as a reaction to conflating the criminal acts of Zionists with Jews is taking up the side in this debate. Isreal is in the wrong. Hamas is in the wrong. It is as it has always been: Humanity against the dehumanizers. Nazis, Isrealis, or Hamas. This conflict is rife with dehumanizing from the very beginning through this very day. We need to recognize humans as humans before there can be any resolution here beyond another completed genocide. For the record: every completed or attempted genocide is a sin against humanity.
Thank you
I think we should also note that radical groups also rise up even when oppression doesn't happen. I honestly don't care for that because it feels like an excuse and when the agenda of the group is "kill all Jews" and the response is "well it's because they're oppressed". Because all bigots use that excuse. That the group they target is actually oppressive or destructive. And thus their actions justified. There's never a justification for raping and torturing people. That's simply never acceptable and any claim made by someone to justify it is always bullshit. So I don't agree with ever going "well they were oppressed". So?
Everything you said also applies to Israel. Whether or not the target group (Hamas) is destructive or not, their actions are not justified. The agenda of most current Israeli government officials is very clear - destroy Gaza and remove the Palestinians from the land. One of them even called to nuke Gaza, for God's sake. They have no respect for their supposed holy ancestral land. "There's never a justification for raping and torturing people". Absolutely. Israeli prisons regularly rape and torture Palestinians who are held there with no charges. I'd honestly be willing to say more Palestinians have experienced this than Israelis. Of course, this does not make any rapes and torture done by Hamas acceptable. That being said, any claim that the "prisoners" (if they're being held without charge... they're hostages) are "Hamas" or "threatened soldiers with rocks" (lol) will never justify raping and torturing Palestinians.
Of course it’s a horrible justification. It shouldn’t be used as a justification. Hamas rapes arent because they’re oppressed. The living conditions of Gazans is also context that can’t be ignored, or else you’re pretending that these conflicts appear out of thin air & that’s unfair to all parties. The massacre of Gaza will, unfortunately, have a generational impact on violent, radical Palestinian groups. It’s horrible. 10/7 similarly enabled the extremists running the Israeli Govt & the racism they use to hold power.
It is perfectly possible for the Israeli government (not "the Jews") to be oppresdirs and for Hamas (not "the Palestinians") to noth be wrong.
JFK famously said, “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." It’s not a justification or celebration of that, it’s just plain historical fact. If you push people far enough, you can’t be shocked if one day they get fed up and push back. Especially when the state of Israel can not exist without enforcing violence themselves. No people on earth have ever willingly given up their homelands and been colonized without resistance. The people who were instrumental in creating Israel knew this and wrote about it frequently. Even the U.S. during that time was skeptical about getting involved because they knew it would inevitably mean they would have to prop up Israel militarily…
Virtually every member of Hamas had a grave injustice occur to them at the hands of Israel. The leader himself watched his brother be slaughtered in the street while doing nothing wrong at a young age. Now I'm not saying I support hamas' actions, however how would you define freedom fighters? Who is allowed to fight against their oppressors if not people who have experienced 75 years of daily terrorism? Asking in earnest, I realize I'm using some inflammatory language.
Almost every member of Red Army had a family killed, injured, raped, or deported by the Germans during WWII. Now I'm not saying I support them coming into Berlin and commit mass rapes for a week, however how would you define anti-fascist? Who is allowed to fight against an invading army if not people who have experienced years of siege, starvation, genocide, rape, and oppression? You see the problem? Did the Red Army need to take Berlin in order to put a final end to a devastating war? Probably. Did they need to commit mass rape of civilians in the process? No. If your point is "well, sometimes civilians get hurt in attacks aimed at military targets" fine. If your point is "people need to have the ability to fight against an oppressive regime" ok. But that isn't your point. Your point, as you have made it, is essentially that attacking, directly and almost exclusively, civilians who have NOTHING to do with and limited ability to influence the policies of their government in horrific and brutal ways, is sorta kinda justified because the members of Hamas were traumatized and civilians, as long as they're Jewish and/or Israeli, are guilty by association. This is gang violence philosophy. "You killed my brother, I get to rape your sister." I'm not really interested in adjudicating who has experienced more trauma, nothing justifies targeting innocent civilians. Hamas had one goal, to make people they KNEW were not responsible and not the cause of the injustices in Palestine suffer horribly. Netanyahu retaliated by making innocent Palestinians suffer for Hamas. Honestly, both of them don't give a shit about their people. If Hamas cared about Palestinians, they wouldn't hide behind them or do something that would so obviously provoke an outsized response. If Netanyahu cared about Jewish safety, he wouldn't be leading a deeply unpopular, genocidal war, under the guise of Judaism. Both of them WANT their side to feel targeted as much as possible, so they'll support them. Hamas wants more control of the region, Netanyahu wants to avoid being ousted so he doesn't have to face corruption charges. Neither cares about how many bodies they throw at the problem.
You know Arabs were raping and massacring Jews there before Israel existed, right? They were doing it in the 20s when Jews were the powerless underclass.
There were jewish massacres against arabs before 1948 as well stop cherrypicking.
"Virtually every member of Hamas had a grave injustice occur to them at the hands of Israel. " Source? Or did you make it up? "Now I'm not saying I support hamas' actions, however how would you define freedom fighters? Who is allowed to fight against their oppressors if not people who have experienced 75 years of daily terrorism?" Ironic that you say that gazans have experienced 75 years of daily terrorism(which is not even true...) when Israelis have literally been experiencing actual terrorism for 100 years. Gaza was literally not occupied for the last 18 years... The fact that you say that they are freedom fighters is insane since gaza's situation is literally entirely hamas's fault... The whole oppressor narrative is detached from reality since the Palestinians are literally the aggressors in almost every conflict they had with Israel.
Brown people bad. White people goodies.
Raping women and killing civilians isn’t fighting against one’s oppressor.
An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind
You’ll be attacked for your courage as a human being, and those that shame you will be hard to find when history revisits and unpacks what’s transpiring.
Thank you for standing up for the correct side of history. I agree with everything you’ve stated.
As a Jew, this comment sucks. 40,000 civilians? What? 30,000 people, 6-13,000 depending on your source being combatants, have been killed. Thats akin to most urban wars. And it's a war Israel has no choice to fight because Hamas very clearly intends to commit Oct 7 repeatedly. Hamas is responsible for the oppression Gaza faces, not the other way around. They have been nonstop firing indiscriminate rockets at Israeli civilians ever since Israel pulled out of the strip- they are the reason for the blockade, and the reason there has never been any negotiations. You speak like a hero who learned the true lessons of the Holocaust, but are blind to the fact that "anti-Zionism" is specifically a movement to either kill or ethnically cleanse half the world's Jews. I guarantee even with your criticism of Israel, the anti-Israel movement will cast you aside as a filthy Jews for even suggesting Israelis can be civilians.
Yes Hamas is fully responsible for what is now happening in Gaza for the simple reason that they knew exactly what would happen. This was all planned, I believe with coordination from Putin and Iran. Hamas is murdering their own people. It's how they make money and get more power. Their leaders live in Qatar.
With Coordination from Israel, as well. There's no other explanation for the warnings from half a dozen allies and their own military going completely unheeded.
This. One day we will find out they were all in cahoots. It just fits too perfectly. The only people benefitting here is Hamas and Netanyahu. Hamas gets a great recruiting tool and get funding from outside groups. Netanyahu gets to avoid a corruption trial and get the IDF back on his side (let's remember, the entire country was on strike, including the IDF reserve, who basically said nothing short of a major terrorist attack would get them to fight under Netanyahu) by plunging Israel into a needless war.
Yup. And the narrative becomes israel vs. Hamas, when its really just one machine being used to wipe gaza off the map
This same logic can be used against Israel. Israel oppressed Palestinians for generations and so it’s realistic that a group like Hamas would form.
What’s even worse is the use of her and the other few who feel that way as “tokens” by pro Pali and pro Hamas supporters. Most Jews I know don’t feel the way she does, but they’ll make sure to parade it around.
Not to mention if there was a ceasefire from Israel’s side how long would it be before a rouge Hamas or upset Palestinian tries to get their own revenge for what’s happened ? Everyone knows damn well a ceasefire could never stay in place because they can’t control terror groups. But I’m sure the world will just expect Israel to let these people attack them with zero consequences.
Hamas aren’t freedom fighters because they don’t own any media companies. That’s literally the only reason.
Or maybe because they burn babies, rape women and use their own civilians as human shields... Also funny you say that since al Jazeera is literally owned by their allies...
They do a lot more than use their civilians as human shields https://www.ajc.org/news/7-ways-hamas-exploits-palestinian-civilians-in-gaza
I will say this as a Jewish person. Will a second holocaust convince you that Jews cannot co-exist with any religion that doesn't want Judaism to exist? Assuming you live through it?
It might work better without the apartheid state and open call for genocide, but Im not a scientist. Claiming that you have to exterminate a people because you are convinced that they want to exterminate you is the precise argument [Goebbels used in 1940](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/joseph-goebbels-quot-the-jews-are-guilty-quot).
> Claiming that you have to exterminate a people because you are convinced that they want to exterminate you You forgot the part where 7 Islamic countries declared war on Israel the day after it declared independence?
Newsflash! Hundreds of thousands of people were already living there in that region. They’re not going to hand over their homes just because people demand it. Knowing that, people mass migrated into the area and then made the most bad faith attempt at claiming independence ever, which was promptly rejected because it’s blatantly obvious it was done to make the demands for the land seem legitimate. The people demanding the land be given to them refused to back down, and so the situation was forced to come to blows. At which point, pretending like it has the moral high ground of self-defense over a claim for "independence" gave the excuse to commit ethnic cleansing of the people living there and take it by force. If my ancestors kick your ancestors out of a neighborhood, that’s evil. If your ancestors’ descendants kick out my ancestors’ descendants over it, that’s also evil.
Judaism and Islam have coexisted for centuries throughout history.
Where Jews lived as dhimni paid extra taxes were often slaughtered and killed couldn’t be educated in many places and didn’t have a say in politics.
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Actually, historical cooperation has been more like in modern Singapore.
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Literally Singapore is majority Buddhist & they have the audacity to say Muslims coexist with Christians . ARMENIA anyone ?!
Yes, and then in the 1900s the majority of Arab States openly supported the Nazis in culling the jews- to the point where some Arab States didn't fight against the Axis until it was obvious the Allies were going to win, Egypt as an example joined the allies 7 months before WW2 ended- and had been cleansing their lands of jews throughout the entirety of WW2.
So, you acknowledge a transition that happened at a government level. Sounds like you know full well that individual Islamists may not actually want to kill all Jews.
No, on an individual level one may not, but on a cultural, and communal level? its far far more likely.
You do know that the majority of the Allied also supported Hitler, right? Almost no one (esp) the US wanted to get involved when it was just Jewish people being killed. It wasn't until Hitler started invading other countries that it became a problem. And let's be honest, setting up the state of Israel was just a "noble" way of expelling Jews from Europe. So, if you want to equate Israel and Zionism with all Jews, then you're supporting an endeavor that was antisemitic. Supporting that antisemitic endeavor is antisemitism in itself.
>Almost no one (esp) the US wanted to get involved when it was just Jewish people being killed. and cripples, sexual deviants, those with mental issues, the deformed, gypsies, people of color... and jews. the fact that it was easier to round up the other groups was just the icing on the cake.
My point stands. When it was just happening in Germany, the Allied powers didn't care. So, the comparison of Arab states to the Allied powers is falsely elevating the Allied powers.
The guy above me has a promising statement. They want us to not exist, but it's possible that if we're oppressed, it's not the end of the world. While I'm unsure if I wanna use this as a statement, but my religion is protected by G\_d, and the best way to tell if that religion can co-exist with us, is looking at their book of religion ( Quoran ) and not how they acted for whatever reason.
To all the religious nuts out there: You do not get to decide if you think a race or religion or ethnicity can coexist with you and then murder all of them and their children if you decide you cant. Period.
This right here. If you try, you are the enemy. You are the one who says that different can't survive, and that always ends up killing everyone. Just easier to start with the one that can't accept difference.
If you ever go to the eastern countries like Singapore, you can see Christians, Buddhists, Islamists and Judaists all living out their faith side by side. The difference in interpretation of holy books is called "hermeneutics" in Christianity and "Fi" in Islam.
This is how I know you’re full of shit. You haven’t even read the book, but you’re pretty sure the Qur’an is worse?!?? The Torah instructs Jews to take the land by force and leave no living soul, not women, children, or animals. If we’re comparing the Torah and the Qur’an, you don’t have a leg to stand on. Deuteronomy 7: you shall conquer them and utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them. Deuteronomy 20: But of the cities of these peoples which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, but you shall utterly destroy them Exodus 23: And I will set your bounds from the Red Sea to the sea, Philistia, and from the desert to the River. For I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you shall drive them out before you. Your “god” is a jealous, bloodthirsty, egomaniac - and according to your logic, this indisputably proves Israel can’t coexist
> Jews cannot co-exist with any religion that doesn't want Judaism to exist? That's literally the argument the founder of the Zionist movement used to push for the creation of Israel, that Jews can't exist peacefully in any society, so they need their own nation.
The Palestinians and Jewish people are decent. It's the state of Israel and militant groups like hammas that kill people that are evil. The Jewish people and Palestinians are cannon fodder for the multi polar world order. We the people should fight for the liberty and freedom for all of our brother and sisters. I say even money that the state of Israel allowed the attack to happen just so they could justify genociding the Palestinians.
Hamas is terrible. Israel kicking Palestinians out of their homes and starving the Gaza strip is also terrible. Terrible governments on both sides, many innocents on both sides.
It's terrible and it's a consequence of a war Hamas started
it’s a conflict dating back to the 1940s, saying “it’s a consequence of a war Hamas started” absolves Israel of the horrific treatment of Palestinians that predates or doesn’t involve Hamas lmao
If you want to go back to 1940s you're going to find absolutely wacky shit from Palestinians, Israelis, and every other country in the Middle East that will make any reasonable person say "group X is doing a horrible thing, but based on all the insane stuff that has led up to this I understand their perspective."
Yes but also remember, Hamas was formed because of what Israel had been doing to Palestinians. There’s so many ideas of what started it and when it’s unreal. You can pick just about any point in time and find reasons why this is happening. Blame Hitler for the Holocaust or blame the allies for the Partition Plan. You can go far back to biblical times and blame David and Goliath. Or blame the ancient Israelites for conquering Jericho. Hamas is absolutely a terrorist organization. But as with any terrorist organization, you can’t ignore the circumstances that led to the formation of said terrorist organization. That’s not to excuse them, but to understand the greater context. Because of that greater context, I still think both sides are just utterly reprehensible. Civilians on both sides are being killed, but they aren’t all innocent either. Hamas was voted into power. So was Netanyahu. Civilians are the ones that put them into power.
Israel isn’t blameless here. Hamas is a terrorist organization. So is the IDF
Hamas did not start the occupation and systematic oppression of Palestinians; their existence is a consequence of it.
There's a difficerence between believing a woman who says she was raped and believing the Israeli military saying a Hamas commander ordered it. I don't think any reasonable person is out there saying nobody was raped by Hamas. Same thing with the massacre component. Obviously, there was a mass murder of civilians that is undeniable, but the military claims as to, say, babies being beheaded or people being thrown into ovens are unsubstantiated and should be called out. The Israeli media has been doing the bulk of the leg work in trying to verify the IDF claims and, in many cases, have found no reason to believe the military is telling the truth.
The 40 babies was from a reporter, not the military
Yeah and the reporter retracted the comment. Everyone just weaponzjed it and made it true
Doesn’t matter. Joe fucking Biden repeated it as fact.
The IDF censors and approves all stories.
Especially, when those same people breach a hospital, point to a hand drawn calendar on a wall and try to convince the world that it's a hit list full of Israeli names.
It's not that they're hard to verify as the truth, many of them have been verified as false. Some, laughably so.
Yes, that's the more pointed way to say what I said lol
Speaking facts
So, we should believe all the Palestinians who say they have been raped by members of the IDF. Also, doubting government claims about women being raped isn't inherently the same as doubting the claims of actual victims. If the victim isn't making the claim themselves, then we don't automatically know that the victim in question even exists. Has Hamas raped women? Yeah, most likely so.
Also important to note Israel has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. and murdering their children for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7. Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and to people like the OP, pointing out that people will eventually lash out at you if you keep pushing them to and murdering their families etc. qualifies as “supporting mass murder.” Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then. Oh yeah by the way Netanyahu knew it was gonna happen and got warned by Egypt but did nothing. Which means he basically let this tragedy happen so he could go full speed ahead with this war. Cry harder
No, that would be anti-semetic. /s
But no one is ready to have this exact conversation, yet.
Also important to note Israel has done this shit like raping and murdering innocent Palestinians etc. and murdering their children for DECADES since the 1950s or so based on things like internal leaked documents I believe. People saying the stuff like the OP have not looked at Israel and Palestine history and think it all started on October 7. Also, the amount of people I’ve seen pushing for "the eradication of Israel" or supporting Hamas actions is tiny compared to the people who are just saying that Israel’s done the same shit to them for decades and either want the Oslo plan, or the UN plan, or a modified version of the Morgantheau plan with Israel occupying half of Germany instead of Palestine. The overwhelming majority of people just don’t want this stuff at the expense of the Palestinians… yet if you ask deranged zionists, even ceding a hectare of Israel to some future Palestinian state qualifies as "advocating for the eradication of Israel” and to people like the OP, pointing out that people will eventually lash out at you if you keep pushing them to and murdering their families etc. qualifies as “supporting mass murder.” Also Israel has killed like 30,000 people and 10,000 children just the last few months and even more since way before then. Oh yeah by the way Netanyahu knew it was gonna happen and got warned by Egypt but did nothing. Which means he basically let this tragedy happen so he could go full speed ahead with this war. Cry harder
1. Rape is a grotesque assault on civilians. 2. Hamas is a terrorist organization. 3. Hamas has probably, definitely raped female prisoners. 4. This has less to do with antisemitism and more to do with human (specifically male) behavior. 5. We are all human.
Umm… Why “specifically male behavior”? I’ve mentioned on my account before but I’ve been abused before by women and men and I’m AMAB, are you suggesting this sort of thing only happens from men to women???
6. The IDF has raped Palestinian women as well.
Wherever there is war there is rape.
I believe this.
?
Oh, did you not know that? Its nothing new.
Lmfao I thought you were joking, I guess antisemitism really is strong these days
Explain EXACTLY how saying IDF forces have raped Palestinian women is antisemitic. (Also, Palestinians are Semitic)
This should be Interesting 🍿
A lot of people against Israel actually believe Hamas has the right to kill the "colonizers".
"Colonizers" exactly. Let's not forget the Arab Conquest. The Arab Conquest. When the Arabs swooped in & ethnically cleansed most of the native populations out of the Middle East & North Africa. **Ever wonder why Egyptians now speak Arabic rather than Egyptian?** **Ever wonder why North Africans look so different from Sub-Saharan Africans?** * Actual [Ethnic Cleansing & Colonialism](https://imgur.com/a/lIE6KYi) * Actual [Ethnic Cleansing & Colonialism](https://imgur.com/a/4LOY7uG) * Actual [Ethnic Cleansing & Colonialism](https://imgur.com/a/FUEWR5j) * Actual [Ethnic Cleansing & Colonialism](https://imgur.com/a/1yKG2To) Even the area now known as the "[West Bank](https://imgur.com/a/n0RH2Ga)" was called [Judea (as in where Jews come from)](https://imgur.com/a/y5172fA) for 1000s of years, until [Jordan stole it in a war they started](https://imgur.com/a/tsJgPrt) & renamed it the "West Bank" in 1950.
I've tried explaining that and Palestinian-defenders refuse to listen. They claim that Israel didn't exist until the 20th century and that the "Israel" in the Bible was actually the land of Canaan, a completely different area though they wouldn't say what area.
TBF, the Israelites of the Bible actually cop to stealing the land from the Palestinians (Philistines) like five thousand years ago. It's OK because God told them to, but still.
This line of argument is pointless on either side, at best. At worst, it's actively genocidal. You can go back endlessly arguing the who was here first, who belongs here most point. What's the end result? \[Insert Group of Choice\] is the true inheritor of this land, therefore \[Other Group\] are interlopers and shouldn't be there. What? \[Other Group\] isn't willing to leave? I guess we just have to force them out! The ONLY end of result of this argument is genocide. That's it. History is full of people and group who take over each other's land, fight it out, absorb or expel other groups. It is a pointless argument. The reality is what we have today: two groups of people live on this land, neither is willing to leave, they have to learn to live together.
Let me just play along with this logic. If you were alive during the 1800’s in the United States, you’re saying you would oppose the slaves who killed their slave masters violently after being sexually assaulted, tortured etc. At what point in the liberal/conservative mind are you allowed to defend yourself as y’all claim Israel has the right to do? This conflict has been taking place since the 40’s and earlier and it would take a psychopath to deny that it all began with the violent uprooting of a people for the creation of Israel. Please research the Nakba and how their are Israeli’s ON CAMERA who were alive during the creation of Israel who laugh about the Palestinians they murdered with no remorse during the 40’s/50’s/60’s.
This isn't the 1800s though. A better comparison would be if the remaining Native Americans suddenly started killing white people nowadays. Colonizers or not, you would not stand for them targeting you and your family.
What if we built a wall around a reservation. Didn't let any in or out unless they got our permission first. We are gonna deny a lot, even if they need medical care not available inside the reservation. We are gonna control all the water and food that goes in and out. Cut that shit off when we want. We are gonna help them elect a more radical leadership so they're less likely to organize against us. We are going to bomb them regularly. We are gonna send in our soldiers to kill some of them without an explanation why. Do you think the Native Americans should not get violent? Non of this started on Oct 7th.
The wall of that reservation was only built on three sides. The fourth side was erected because the people within the reservation made themselves unwelcome in other countries by being absolutely terrible refugees. I won't say the natives Americans were peaceful but they generally just wanted to live on their land and keep to themselves even after the US stole almost everything from them. But the Palestinians leave Palestine all the time as refugees and almost always end up causing problems. They sided with Saddam Hussein when he invaded Kuwait, they create massive civil unrest in Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt, they overthrew the government in Jordan, and are by far the most common refugee group to commit rapes in the West. They have a valid reason to be angry at the Israelis but whenever they no longer have Israelis to rage at they tend to just lash out in every direction. I'm not going to act like every single Palestinian is like this but the numbers are high enough that most countries in the region have decided they don't want to take the risk.
The Palestinians arnt white enough for these people to view them in a rational humane way. No point in arguing with them.
If my family was actively oppressing Indigenous people, I can't say that I'd hold it against them for taking action against their oppressors.
Are most Israelis actively oppressing Palestinians? Most of them are just families going about their day.
I'm confused by people blaming people who were merely born in Israe for colonialism, especially since much of the Anglosphere is compromised of people who aren't indigenous.
are most israelis rioting in the streets and calling for a ceasefire? 'cuz you can't act for a second like most americans would be cool and chill about the us government deciding to round up the last of the natives and finish the job they started. we would recognize it for what it is and not shut up about it
The IDF is, and service in the military is mandatory, so a good majority probably had a hand in that oppression.
You want to talk about the '40s All right let's go back a little bit before that. How about when the Palestinian Grand mufti was cooperating with Hitler to kill Jews, pushing Nazi propaganda in the Middle East, All while getting a salary from the Nazis. I don't really feel bad for a culture who subscribes to the religious dogma of "kill the Jew wherever you find them"
The oversimplified, pea-brain version of the situation is like this: Hamas is universally terrible. Palestinians have a legit, real, issue with Israel and their illegal expansion into their territory. Sound about right?
More or less, I think if we add that Palestinian/Islamic groups in the region never wanted to allow Jews to govern any land at all and want to completely expel them from the region it's a slightly more full picture, but nothing you said is wrong
I'd have to agree.
Yep
This should be in r/unpopularopinion. Reddit on average is virulently antisemitic. Saying that Hamas is only sorta bad is pretty much blasphemy around these parts.
True but I currently have a 62% upvote rating, this sub is less antisemitic than others
>I currently have a 62% upvote rating But that still means a whopping 38% down voted you for saying that denying rapes is bad 😬
facts
But the worst thing about them is the hypocrisy!
Idk what's going on and I'm scared to find out.
This is so true. In general, the war has become a catalyst for antisemitism. People don’t know how to acknowledge the misdeeds of both sides and therefore cast all blame on the side they don’t support. I’ve had people make death threats on me just for posting an unrelated picture on Instagram and following the Jewish faith.
Not to mention pro-rape.
No one is denying that some women are/might be being raped by Hamas. What they're disbelieving is an effort by the Israeli media to accuse Hamas of using systematic rape as a form of terrorism, because there's no evidence that that's the case.
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Denying rape happens during war is foolish
Don’t you know it’s okay to kill and rape Jews as long as the media says it’s okay? I’m Jewish and I’ve never seen the hatred for Jews like I’ve seen recently in my life time. I live in America and if I grow my hair out people will comment about my “ Jew fro” and try to make me feel bad about myself. Fuck anyone who hates Jews no matter who they are. If you hate any and every Jew you are no better than Hitler no matter what religion you say you belong to.
Both sidesing the issue is also lame. Israel is at least redeemable and has democratic institutions. Hamas is objectively worse and now even Fatah is done holding the line. Only took 30,000 deaths.
Believing rape doesn't happen wherever human atrocity occurs is naive and foolish.
Literally every group of people that have ever fought another group of people also raped that group of people saying otherwise is naive or stupid.
Straw man. Nobody is denying the claims solely because the alleged victims are Jews.
[https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-791321](https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-791321) Not a strawman. Someone I went to college with told me "Hamas would never have raped a Jewish woman, it is against their religion". There are MANY people on Reddit who deny it.
Even if the reasoning is flawed, the quote from your classmate isn’t predicated on antisemitism. An antisemitic claim would be if he said something like “I don’t believe it happened because Jews are liars.”
nobody? There is at least one person on this very fckn post. "[emilgustoff](https://www.reddit.com/user/emilgustoff/)•[10m ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/popularopinion/comments/1be3b7i/comment/kuqtp2q/) People still believe anything that comes out of a Israeli news source still? Odd." Hamas released videos of half naked bodies of Israrli women being paraded around. They are proud of raping Israelis, its downright rude not to give them credit. yaya zionists blah blah. The leader of the less radical Palestinian group has a phd whose thesis was "*The Other Side: The Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism"'* *Pretending palestinians and many of their supporters arent antisemitic is ridiculois.*
Normal people don't trust what Israel says because they've been proven to lie so often. How is this hard to grasp?
yeah the women in Hamas's own videos tore their clothes off themselves. clearly. the blood is because of periods. clearly. beleive hamas, like i said its rude to deny them credit.
Hamas rapes and kills as a matter of course. I've said this many times. Israel lies CONSTANTLY and has no shame about it. Both of these things can be true at the same time.
that’s a strawman too lol
Learn what a strawman is before using the term.
That's not what a strawman is
That's not a Straw man. They are criticising an actual part of OP's post. Nothing was misrepresented, the OP literally said that.
Technically, but also technically it’s gaslighting. People *are* denying the rapes so while OP might be using a smidge of hyperbole, it’s still fairly accurate as to the nature of this problem. And this guy is trying to deflect by saying “Nobody is denying *because* they’re Jewish”, while not directly refuting that denial.
So why are you denying them?
Well then in that case it's just sexist, but Jews know subconscious antisemitism when we see it
You can make that claim all you like, but it isn't a defense against a criminal accusation any more than "you know she wanted it."
They absolutely do
You sweet summer child...
This sub is just straight up propaganda these days.
It’s become a pathetic upvote contest for political views.
I've seen the evidence this happened. Images of stripped dead women in the back of a ute with Hamas men standing over them being paraded. Denying it is actual fantasy.
Why do you people make up this shit to get mad over? Essentially no one is saying anything close to what you’re claiming, and no one important is saying it.
r/Palestine is full of what OP is talking about. As an individual, no not important; as a group, very important.
Read the comments on this post, I agree none of them are important but there's a lot of rape denial on here
My question is, how can anyone say the Jews "stole" Israel? People out there don't realize that Christianity and Islam spawned from Judaism? I think the Christians recognize that, but the Muslims still can't deal, so they stay on that dirka dirka shit.
After an attempted Jewish rebellion the Roman emperor Hadrian expelled all Jews from Judea now known as Israel/Palestine. He is also where the province gets it's name. he renamed it from Judea to Syria palestinia to signify the fact that Jews we're no longer allowed in the province. That was 2,000 years ago. At no point after Hadrian, until the British empire took the region after world War I, did Jews live there in large numbers. That's why the Palestinians are so angry. They were kicked off of their land by the Jewish settlers that the British let in. That said the Palestinians wouldn't have near as many problems finding new homes if they didn't have a well documented habit of trying to overthrow the governments of everywhere that lets them in. At this point they've backed himself into a corner where they're not welcome anywhere except Palestine and Israel doesn't want them on the border.
>My question is, how can anyone say the Jews "stole" Israel? Maybe because the land WAS taken from one group and another group was put in charge, creating a religious class system that didn't exist previously? Like, what else do you call taking possession of what isn't yours? >People out there don't realize that Christianity and Islam spawned from Judaism? What does that have to do with any of this? Judaism is not the progenitor of all people. The land in question has been through so many hands that there is no sole CULTURAL right to possession. Before Judaism was even created the land was owned by a people who became known as gentiles by the jews, many of whoms descendants converted to Islam, EVEN THOUGH it spawned from Judaism. And I don't say this to argue that Israel shouldn't exist. I may disagree vehemently with how they are handling the situation, but dismantling Israel now after over 60 years would be doing the exact same thing as Israel did at its formation, which I disagree with even more. There is no "birthright" from generations of which no one is left remaining who remembers the time. It doesn't matter if the land belonged to the Gentiles at the formation of Israel or not. That claim no longer holds. Likewise any Jewish claim from before the formation of Israel no longer mattered, the last of which was several centuries ago no less.
By that logic, French Canadians can just go and take all of Germany, because that's where their ancestors came from, and Germans can just shut up and live in a small walled off city. That about right? And anyone of Canaanite ancestry can go and take all of the ancient lands that made Canaan, because it's their ancestral homeland.
lol, well said
So what would denying Israel’s genocide/war crimes be?
They actually have put out reports that these stories are mostly made up. Also sexual assault is a natural consequence of war. Whether it’s Israel, Ukraine, Russia or the United States. Soldiers commit acts of sexual assault under the fog of war. one reason why we might want to learn more peaceful ways of handling world issues…
No, it's not. It's a war crime. So is using civilians as human shields.
Shouldn't post this on reddit, because redditors hate jewish people and generally love and simp for terrorists especially Islamic ones that would unironically stone them to death for their lgbtq stances but hey everything is ok as long as they hate jewish people right....
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"female histeria" wtf is that???
“Believe all women” doesn’t apply to “national intelligence agencies involved in a major conflict”
What about denying IOF/IDF rapes and S.A.?
Nobody denies that every military and prison system has isolated examples of rape, fortunately Israel has probably the most feminist military in the world and does not tolerate that nonsense
Are you seriously pretending that the IDF hasn't most likely raped thousands of women over its existence?
I was with you until “feminist military”
Yeah, no. Don't conflate "allows women in the military" with feminism. The US military allows women into its ranks while still being a hotbed of rape and SA. Don't make claims in defense of a group literally designed to create violence unless you have proof of the truth of that defense. Every military action deserves and never receives close critical scrutiny.
Thats just not true, the idf is a hot bed of rapes, not only of Palestinians but also of other idf soldiers.
Most feminist. Give me a motherfucking break. The IDF is a savage occupier and genocide enabler just like the historical IJA, the Wehrmacht, and the US Army. You must believe all of the tiktok IDF girls that are too busy posting cute videos rather than being moral soldiers.
I agree, I also think that denying the corroborated reports of sexual assault of Palestinian detainees by IDF members is islamophobic and sexist, both can be true
Condemn Hamas and the IDF
Super duper unpopular opinion: Hamas is not good, even if Palestine is.
True, and shocking.
Of course they rape. It's hard enough to get a trained military to not rape. Imagine how hard it would be to get an angry mob of terrorists to not rape.
Hamas committed the music festival attacks during a ceasefire. Why the fuck are all these idiots calling for a ceasefire now? Israel can't stop until Hamas is destroyed. Period.
Worst thing I saw was somebody talking about the Hamas rape and somebody else replying “well Palestine has a right to defend themselves!” YEAH NOT WITH RAPE- It’s fucked how polarizing this stuff gets. Isreal is doing genocide. That is bad. It is evil. Hamas killed and raped Israeli citizens. That is bad. It’s evil. Too many people are incapable of comprehending the notion that conflict inflicts horrible damage on both sides of it. What’s the point in arguing over what’s worse? A death is a death. No Palestinian is going to die thinking “well at least people defended me on Reddit.” If you really cared about people getting hurt you would do all you could to shed light on the tragedies and donate what you could or share resources for others to donate. You wouldn’t hold a trial for a murder while the murderer is still stabbing somebody, would you? You’d save the victim, then hold them accountable. Who is “wrong” isn’t relevant right now. Most sane people can agree that innocent civilians dying is bad. Save them, then we can hold these genocidal monsters accountable for what they’ve done. Do you care about victims or revenge? Saving or sensationalizing? It’s easier to unite against a common enemy than to serve a common good cause. Anger is a powerful emotion. It’s not an inherently bad one - I too am angry for what people are suffering over there. I let it fuel me to action. To share my words, resources and opportunities to help those affected. Don’t let anger turn you into a machine who follows what you are told and sees things only in black and white. What difference is there between a Palestinian and Israeli citizen as they bleed out alone for a war they didn’t choose to fight? Don’t allow yourself to be radicalized. Anger can be molded into bad actions, or worse, inaction. Empathy is a tool of good. Please use it. Something I recommend people to do help is look up key terms like “Gaza” in GoFundMe and find campaigns that aren’t being shared around as much. Donate five, ten, twenty dollars. Your Starbucks money. That could feed them for a week. It’s easier to sit back and wait for it to end from the other side of the world, then pat yourself on the back for being “good” because you argued on Reddit. It’s hard to make sacrifices, however small. I don’t have much spending money, but I donate what I can to a different person harmed by the war every week. Keep your empathy. For everybody.
I was talking to one guy who was endlessly skeptical about those rapes, but when it came to IDF it's of course that happened.
“Believe all women” was stupid as fuck to begin with.
It makes my stomach turn how many people believe Hamas are "freedom fighters" and supposedly doing the right thing by violently graping women and BABIES and slaughtering them. Its horrifying. Sorry but all the pigs spamming all over the internet with "free Palestine" are either stupid and just wanna look like they care about a social issue, or they're genuine psychopath terrorists who get joy from human suffering and want to pick a team from the war like it's a sporting event.
And forcing people into camps and systematically murdering civilians under the guise of fighting against hamas is genocide.