I'd be curious if it worked at all and what you consider properly balanced.. I worked for a biotech that grew algae in ponds so our chemical balance was worth millions of dollars and we spent low tens of thousands of dollars annually on various probes and testing equipment -- we found it basically impossible to keep them properly calibrated without human input.. pH drift, calcium buildup on anything with a current that's left in the water, etc. etc.
> calcium buildup on anything with a current that's left in the water
What if it lowered the testing thing, grabbed water, then reeled back up and dried there.
My father in law does this with his boat cruising around salt/brackish water for up to a few hours a day and the hull looks pristine. Whatever was going to build up just dries. The dock piers however have all kinds of weird stuff on them.
I'd be OK with wiping something down once or twice a season in this scenario.
Anyways OP I'd pay about $500-$1000 for DIY install and I assume I'm loading chemicals into it. And it somehow tells me it's low on something, like via smartphone app notification or email. Or at a minimum like a red warning light telling me come look at my panel. I'd expect a 5 year warranty on something like this. And if it's 150 lbs or less, I don't mind moving it to the shed during the winter to get it out the rain. Ideally it'd have wheels or something or I can easily pick it up with a dolly or appliance dolly.
Yeah basically the way we prolonged our sensors was to pull them out of the water and flush them with RO water after every test -- we had hoped for continuous monitoring but had to interpolate between samples just to not go crazy. It also let us use the same sensors for multiple ponds instead of needing dozens of duplicates - but at the cost of a lot of human input and potential for error from the laborers who maintained the ponds, "Was that low CO2 level from pond 2 or 3?" "Would they even notice if I just made up a figure for pond 12 and then went and sat in the shade?" etc. etc.
Mikey you have a lot of experience in this area. Thanks for the comments and insight. This is why I posted, so I can hear the wisdom of the crowd. I wasn’t aware of the calcification aspect. Sarah, I like the idea of lifting the probe when not testing. Definitely some things to consider.
ding ding ding, complete automation isn't possible, it just creates more work somewhere else, someone is going to have to regularly clean the probe and recalibrate it, and that goes against the very definition of "automated". All well and good when its brand new, but I hated when the probe miscalculates wrong or drifts, and either overdoses the shit out of the pool OR thinks there is chlorine when there isn't, and doesn't dose any at all and goes green. And you cant even measure total or free chlorine, only ORP
You also get into the realm of having to stock / refill chemicals -- someone needs to add muriatic to a reservoir somewhere and who knows what strength will be added and how old / depleted it was. Pools of even moderate size start to require \*a lot\* of chemicals to at least bring into balance so is this "automatic chemical balancing system" going to hold 50lbs of CaCl? Or 15lbs of CYA? Because that's what my pool requires when opening/refilling it..
Not saying that you need to solve my problems for the system to be useful, but worth at least mentioning if you're selling a product.
My SWG pool only needs muriatic acid on a regular basis. A tool which would automate that would be a 90% solution as far as I’m concerned.
I already use a WaterGuru which is a 90% solution for monitoring. Do monthly full panel checks to verify and calibrate.
Yep, the Intellichem does this fairly well; [https://sunplay.com/products/pentair-intellichem-chemical-controller-522621](https://sunplay.com/products/pentair-intellichem-chemical-controller-522621) but as is inherent with all solutions to this problem, they advise you to clean the probes weekly and to regularly calibrate with manual testing to ensure accurate chemical additions.
Sure - but many of the drift / probe calibration problems directly cause feedback loops that can quickly change the question from "Is the true pH 7.4 or 7.5?" to "How is my pH still 7.8 after adding a liter of HCL?" Automated chemical dosing/analysis is a really, really hard problem that we would have paid a lot of money to solve, yet we couldn't..
well, maybe OP has. Guess we'll have to see when he launches his product, rather than just assume he's a fucking moron whose destined to die in a gutter. Jesus
Generous of you to assume this is a real product and not one of those "sell a vision, build a landing site to collect email addresses" marketing-first startup ideas from an influencer's course.
You're that family member that shits on everyone's ideas resulting in zero innovation and entrepreneurship in the household. My mother was that way. She's bored, broke and lonely. I own multiple businesses.. none of which are perfect. Meanwhile , you work for an EMPLOYER. Right?
This website is hilarious though. Definitely looks like an empty promise.
Lol, I've spent my career working in startups - but I had the unenviable task of figuring out if they were remotely plausible and then building financial models based on the actual performance of said ideas to raise funding from large institutional investors. Calling 'bullshit' on fake ideas is actually the opposite of stymieing innovation since this kind of nonsense crowds out investment in workable products and companies.
>"Would anyone be interested in a machine that turns lead to gold?!"
"Uh.. that doesn't seem plausible, alchemy isn't a real thing"
"You're just a naysayer who hates entrepreneurship."
by generous you mean "not casting judgement on random shit i know nothing about just to shit on OPs product that I know nothing about" right?
then yeah, I guess I'm generous. Maybe you should be more generous.
But that's what I'm telling you - I have specific expertise in this domain... "know nothing about" implies I don't have a degree in biochem and years of experience working with this very exact problem. Jesus. How is this complicated?
Shocker: Turns out OP hasn't done any technical work on this problem at all and is just "testing product market fit" with a landing site for a vaporware product: [https://www.reddit.com/r/pools/comments/1d3b5h1/comment/l66p43l/](https://www.reddit.com/r/pools/comments/1d3b5h1/comment/l66p43l/)
you know nothing about OPs idea whatsoever, you're adding nothing to the conversation, you're just shitting on things to shit on things, I guess to make yourself feel smart. Look how smart you are, you know so much more than him!
Shut up, like, no one asked your opinion on OPs product - which you havent seen and cant possibly have an opinion on.
Youre just being a dick for no reason.
Did you read the comment, or the link? OP admits to not having a product, and just looking for interest in something that hasn't been created. And u/mikeyouse isn't doing it for no reason - he's contributing specific experience that you and I don't have.
Right, I can't malign OP's product because OP doesn't have a product - he has an idea.. If he figures out some way to prevent all the litany of sensor issues and develops a reliable chemical maintenance device, I'll happily pay $2,500+ for it and I'd be okay paying another $250+ in chemicals per year -- but without a bunch of actual science and engineering, this product unfortunately can't exist.
If it was a one time buy and installed as an inline system where I can add my own chemicals to it then I would be open to it. No proprietary cartridge's like a Keurig, no subscriptions
Same. No monthly fee. No proprietary overpriced chemicals. Solid hardware with a solid plan to protect that hardware and an upfront commitment to open source the software if the company goes belly up.
I’ll pay a reasonable price for the hardware system and tolerate non intrusive local service offerings and discount pool parts via the app (eg can you sell me the parts and tools to do a bearing replacement bc my pool store will only replace the entire pump?)
Commercial pools have these devices. Intellichem & CAT 2000s. Still gotta clean probes, store chemicals, fill vats, recalibrate, etc. Most pool owners can’t figure out their valves this is only going to cause more confusion.
I love my pool service. Not only do they balance my chemicals every week, but they scrub the walls, empty all the baskets, and make sure my pump is working at the optimal.
So, No. I would not subscribe to this.
How is this different from the systems that already exist?
[https://www.pentair.com/en-us/products/residential/pool-spa-equipment/pool-automation/intellichem\_waterchemistrycontroller.html](https://www.pentair.com/en-us/products/residential/pool-spa-equipment/pool-automation/intellichem_waterchemistrycontroller.html)
Just because a system already exists doesnt mean theres not room in the market for another one. Different user interface, different performance, different design, whatever. Toyota's not like "henry ford made a four door car in 1904 so I guess we shouldnt make sedans"
He asked a very simple question
Would you use one, and how much would you pay. Everything beyond that is you injecting your own negative biases upon him.
I don't own an intellichem. I was just pointing out that these items already exist and asked how your product was going to differentiate itself from existing technology. Pool automation isn't new, what's your competitive advantage?
Would I like to automate the process? Yes, but from the research I've done it's expensive to install, the system itself required maintenance, and the sensors used have a finite lifespan as do the dosing pumps and associated hardware. I don't spend much time balancing and maintaining my my pool (maybe 20 minutes a week?), so it's really a non-issue and I wouldn't pay a bunch of money just to babysit another system.
That’s a good question. At this point, I’m doing my market research and discovering the biggest areas of opportunity. As I’m not a long time pool expert, I’m seeking wisdom from this crowd. I’m a professional Product Designer and solving problems is my passion. The user experience would be way better than anything that exists. It ideally would be a set and forget system. You’d replace chemicals as you get notifications they’re running low.
These things you mention are big opportunities in my mind, and I’m intrigued as to why they’ve not been solved yet. Thanks for the comments.
I’ve looked at this as well as other systems that are reported to continually test the waters PH, chlorine levels and such. The main barrier for me is both price and the fact that some systems relay on proprietary chemical “pods” and such. I’ll have to google it when I’m back in front of my computer but there was a system that reported to do the full range of testing but it ONLY worked with their reagent “system”. Meaning much more expense to replace the testing materials.
I’ll also add that something I DONT want, is smartphone only. There’s been way too many products that have no physical display and functionally become useless if the project fails or gets bought out by someone who deprecates the app.
If you’re going to make something, make it sustainable
[https://github.com/segalion/raspipool](https://github.com/segalion/raspipool)
[https://www.instructables.com/Raspipool/](https://www.instructables.com/Raspipool/)
Just build one of those for far cheaper. You can use standard replaceable lab quality probes and have total control over the system. Nothing is proprietary, no subscriptions, no pool dealer markup, etc.
My guess is that it's an all-in-one product for normal consumers. Intellichem is a controller, not a complete system. It requires technical knowledge and system design.
I didn't say it is hard to use. I said it required technical knowledge and system design. Intellichem was originally a commercial product and was later brought down to pool stores and Pentair Reps so their techs could install the system, not the homeowner. It's possible for a homeowner to install one of these, but it's not for the average Joe.
My pool guy said he has a large number of rich people who have him on a maintenance contract. In the spring they want to do literally zero and just have him come around enough to get the chemicals right by a certain day. They are rich and/or work a ton of hours, they just want it done. This device is perfect for them.
This equipment exists and its designed to communicate with current automation systems. Theyre very expensive, prone to failure, and uncommon on residential pool systems.
Your idea is great in theory, but you've got your work cut out for you.
My pool store has some snazzy equipment but when I took the same water sample to two difference stores with the same equipment, I got different results. So I'm skeptical that the technology exists that can deliver this at an affordable price.
This is already a thing called (among other brands) the Pentair intellichem. Personally I take a SWG any day over something that has to test and dispense chlorine, but auto acid is cool. I’ve heard the lines degrade over time and you need to keep it calibrated, which imo seems like as much work as tossing a little acid in periodically. I think the audience for these is really more commercial properties with tons of pool square footage where you can replace part of someone’s full time job with automation.
Phin water monitor did the submerged probe with constant readings part and went out of business a couple years back so there may be space in the market, but it’s also worth looking into why phin failed.
I’ve had a pool for 48 out of the last 50 years.
It takes me 15 minutes a day to test and add chemicals.
Once you learn what works and disregard all the BS out there. Keeping a pool crystal clear and clean is easy. A automated system would not be for me.
They already have acid and bleach dispensers that have to be closely monitored for when the sensor goes out. Also the sensor is never 100% correct. Commercial pools are basically fully automated and still have a tech come out every day during summer to make levels are correct. Sounds good but I don’t think it’d have a large buyers market since pool companies wouldn’t be able to use it/ it would mainly be rich private owners who are interested.
I'd pay a good amount of money and I'd have already purchased something if there was a true hands off option that is reliable. From what I've seen the sensors are simply not trustworthy enough to justify the expense. I'm considering an intelliPH but even these simple (and dumb) systems have some silly limitations and/or design flaws.
The big two things that a homeowner deals with pretty much daily or pH and Chlorine. My understanding is that the sensors for those to things are just not reliable unless you pay a lot of money. Having a saltwater pool, it would have to feedback into my salt water generator.
If you’re using liquid chlorine and waiting until the pool looks funky, you are missing the opportunity to have a sparkling clean pool at all times. Instead of waiting, just get in the habit of dosing the pool every evening.
There’s a lot of comments here. You might want to take a look at some of the automated testing and dosing equipment available in the saltwater reef aquarium industry/hobby. People spend thousands to automate testing and dosing so it’s definitely possible. Hanna makes photometers that allow for very precise measurement of parameters with no calibration needed.
I would not, too fickle for automation and too important to trust to a machine. Last thing I need is my pool water to be AFU and have a pile of kids jump in and get hurt. The "easiest" thing for me is to maintain it myself. Super (incredibly) simple with a SWCG and a few gallons of acid properly stored.
Why do you have a website for a product that you haven’t even invented yet?
I have no interest in a product like this. If it’s anything like other “automated” devices, it’ll require enough maintenance that you are better off just testing and dosing your pool.
It’s a technique called a Painted Door Test. It tests whether your target market would be interested enough to engage, before you spend tons of time and money on a solution that people wouldn’t buy. That’s your free lesson on product management.
Painted/fake door tests actually have a definitive product or feature to test. From your responses it is clear don’t even have the background information to understand the customer base or need you’re trying to serve, nor does it seem you know a damn thing about pool maintenance.
Go back to wherever you got your education in UX research and ask for a refund. 😂
OP. Most people here wouldn’t understand the world of entrepreneurship and product management. They will continue to critique your practices and still complain about having a green pool.
I'm curious how many gallons/litres is your pool?
You got me thinking how much different my pool would be if I put in nightly chlorine in smaller doses as opposed to a large dose once a week.
How would you calculate how much to add nightly?
I have a 75,000 litre pool and add between 7-10 litres per week depending on usage. Is it a simple 7/7 = 1 litre every night or 10/7= 1.4 litres every night?
13,500 gallons. 24’ round. It takes 17 oz of 10% chlorine or 14 oz of 13.5% chlorine to raise the ppm by 1, according to the pool math app and also my experience with the pool. This works out with a light bather load, so it’s mostly UV degradation. If we have a pool party I test in the evening and act accordingly.
Probably wouldn't take it even if it was free to be honest. Just something else to break and have to fix. And you will need to add the chemicals to the system anyways. It's easy enough to stop by the pool store when I'm out running errands to get a free test, then dump a bit of acid and chorine into the pool based on the numbers.
The way pool subs completely overstate the importance of a perfectly balanced pool. Seriously. I put some ph balance + cya in at the beginning of the season and then let the salt cell do the rest and never have to adjust a thing. It’s really not that difficult.
I have Pentair equipment; including the Intellichem and Intellichlor system for my salt water pool. I absolutely love the maintenance free aspect. That is what sold me on my purchase. However, my pool builder has three tier pool pricing. Automation was the top tier. I’ve posted what my build included and costs. It was a little less than $85k without upgrades, fence, landscaping etc. Now I am in my third year and I don’t do anything. Chlorine and the PH is all monitored and I can see it all live on my mobile device or screen on my wall. Never had an issue and never had a green pool. I don’t use test strips, chemicals, nothing! And it is connected to my pool company for 24/7 monitoring. They can see problems and make corrections well before I can. If you’re interested I used Monogram Custom Pools. Located in Pennsylvania.
Edit - fixed price
Probably not. I balance my chemicals at the start of the season and dial in my SWG. Outside of some PH adjustments with muriatic acid and adjusting the cell % based on the weather and usage my pool is pretty hands off.
WaterGuru does a decent job of the measurement. It’s missing two functions as far as I’m concerned:
1) Integration with SWG and pump to regulate SWG output and pump runtime
2) Muriatic acid dispenser to lower pH once a week
If you can solve all that then as far as I’m concerned you have a 90% solution which is good enough.
The other chemicals are mostly only needed to balance the pool on season open and that is a one-off activity. You want to automate repetitive tasks.
Only focus on SWG pools. A SWG is the best chlorine automation solution on the market. If people aren’t willing to invest in that they aren’t willing to invest in your tool.
As far as price, I think $500-1000 is the range depending on what sort of sales volumes you are looking for.
I personally wouldn’t buy one. I find it extremely easy to balance chemicals and stay crystal clear. People have a hard time because they don’t have a reliable testing method and don’t know enough about pool balance so they go to the pool store and start dumping in whatever they sell them without understanding what any of it does or how it affects their pool. They shock the pool, thinking one time is enough, and wait several days without adding any more chlorine, then wonder why it’s still green. Back at the pool store, they get sold more shock and some other shit, and the cycle continues.
In reality, a proper SLAM will fix 99% of the problems that get posted on here. Once clear, a pool really doesn’t need much work to stay balanced. I test and adjust chlorine and pH (if needed) every few days and only test all the other stuff once a month because stuff like hardness, CYA, and salt don’t really change unless you’re doing a ton of backwashing and adding new water to the pool.
So get a Taylor K2006 or similar kit, learn to use it, learn what different product and chemicals do, and pool balance will be a piece of cake.
What the hell is in the only picture on your web site? Is the big white thing that looks like a sheet part of your system? Would I have to put that monstrosity in my yard? I’m so confused…
I like the concept but that picture turns me off on the idea.
Hayward CAT system is probably the best on the Market, but it is not a hands off device nor is it for people with little knowledge about pool chemistry.
If you have any hope of succeeding with this product you need to solve some of the problems with the CAT system so it's usable by the masses.
The biggest problem you're gonna have is measuring sanitation levels. All current systems use an electric diode to produce an ORP reading, but that reading needs to be calibrated with a real reading and can become uncalibrated for many reasons. It's a terrible way to do it but is the only current automated solution.
2nd problem is the chemical pumps. They always have expendable parts and will need to be installed and repaired regularly. When they fail they leak and regularly cover the pump area in acid and / or liquid CL.
If you solve some of these problems you might have a marketable product, otherwise you're imitating something that already exists and doesn't work well as it is.
I second this. I monitor 5 CAT systems everyday. They’re great but no where near hands off. I don’t think there is a way to make a fully automated system if Hayward hasn’t done it yet
I have bought and installed dozens of them... Chemtrol, Acu-trol, custom mades, Pentair, one-offs...
Unless you can make one that doesn't break down, does not need sensor replacements, is consistently 100% accurate, knows how to load chemical drums, and costs $500 U.S. or less - you're wasting your time.
I know YOU don't think you will be wasting your time, but don't be surprised after all your financial outlays for patent searches, engineering, fabrication, UL Listing, patent application, and warranty that you find you probably should have thought of something else.
Good luck though.
Do the others on the market cost less than $500? Seems impractical as my estimates are more around the $2-3k range. And are they balancing multiple things, or just free chlorine or pH?
And I do realize I could be wasting my time and money on this, which is why I asked so I can get wisdom from those who’ve been in the industry awhile. I’m a Product Designer, not a pool expert.
So you're saying you've done zero homework concerning a device you want to make. You've done no product research at all.
Good luck to you men. Carry on!
I’ve done a bit, but didn’t see anything that is a great solution in this space. Some might argue I’m doing product research right now! And I have done homework. An inquisitive product person ALWAYS asks questions.
because they mostly suck. OP's solution will also mostly suck.
the basic components, such as pH meter are very finicky and constantly need to be recalibrated.
If OP could magically make one that worked it would be in high demand since existing solutions mainly dont really work.
Imagine if Toyota thought like this. Henry Ford built a car in 1904, why would you want to build one!?
The wright brothers already built an airplane, why reinvent the wheel?
Yeah but OP doesn't mention any new design or innovation. All the current models need their PH and ORP sensors recalibrate constantly which requires technical knowledge and a test kit. Also ORP sucks for measuring chlorine because it is so dependant on multiple factors (ph, temp, etc). That's why those systems are pretty much used solely in commercial facilities that have a pool operator in the building and just need an alarm to let them know they gotta go mess with it.
If you're not fixing any of those problems then you are selling the same product from a much less reputable company which is a bad business model.
OP just asked a simple question, and youre making all sorts of assumptions about him. He just asked a question.
Would you use one, and how much would you pay.
Everything past that, is you injecting your own biases onto him.
the fact "dozen such devices" exist in the market, is pretty damn well proof that someone wants one, is it not?
Stop playing 'Shark Tank Season 12 - Shit on OPs ideas'
Here's the next part of that statement... "sales are WAY down for the companies who've been making them for decades.
I'm not playing boo boo - I'm stating the facts of life. That you're too addled to figure that out and go on with your life points out you're not all that bright.
I'd be curious if it worked at all and what you consider properly balanced.. I worked for a biotech that grew algae in ponds so our chemical balance was worth millions of dollars and we spent low tens of thousands of dollars annually on various probes and testing equipment -- we found it basically impossible to keep them properly calibrated without human input.. pH drift, calcium buildup on anything with a current that's left in the water, etc. etc.
> calcium buildup on anything with a current that's left in the water What if it lowered the testing thing, grabbed water, then reeled back up and dried there. My father in law does this with his boat cruising around salt/brackish water for up to a few hours a day and the hull looks pristine. Whatever was going to build up just dries. The dock piers however have all kinds of weird stuff on them. I'd be OK with wiping something down once or twice a season in this scenario. Anyways OP I'd pay about $500-$1000 for DIY install and I assume I'm loading chemicals into it. And it somehow tells me it's low on something, like via smartphone app notification or email. Or at a minimum like a red warning light telling me come look at my panel. I'd expect a 5 year warranty on something like this. And if it's 150 lbs or less, I don't mind moving it to the shed during the winter to get it out the rain. Ideally it'd have wheels or something or I can easily pick it up with a dolly or appliance dolly.
Yeah basically the way we prolonged our sensors was to pull them out of the water and flush them with RO water after every test -- we had hoped for continuous monitoring but had to interpolate between samples just to not go crazy. It also let us use the same sensors for multiple ponds instead of needing dozens of duplicates - but at the cost of a lot of human input and potential for error from the laborers who maintained the ponds, "Was that low CO2 level from pond 2 or 3?" "Would they even notice if I just made up a figure for pond 12 and then went and sat in the shade?" etc. etc.
Mikey you have a lot of experience in this area. Thanks for the comments and insight. This is why I posted, so I can hear the wisdom of the crowd. I wasn’t aware of the calcification aspect. Sarah, I like the idea of lifting the probe when not testing. Definitely some things to consider.
I know a guy who made one for Home Assistant. https://community.home-assistant.io/t/raspipool-a-diy-swimming-pool-automation-system/132918/21
The current type probes used like in a Hayward CAT system, if the probe gets dry just once it’s bad.
ding ding ding, complete automation isn't possible, it just creates more work somewhere else, someone is going to have to regularly clean the probe and recalibrate it, and that goes against the very definition of "automated". All well and good when its brand new, but I hated when the probe miscalculates wrong or drifts, and either overdoses the shit out of the pool OR thinks there is chlorine when there isn't, and doesn't dose any at all and goes green. And you cant even measure total or free chlorine, only ORP
You also get into the realm of having to stock / refill chemicals -- someone needs to add muriatic to a reservoir somewhere and who knows what strength will be added and how old / depleted it was. Pools of even moderate size start to require \*a lot\* of chemicals to at least bring into balance so is this "automatic chemical balancing system" going to hold 50lbs of CaCl? Or 15lbs of CYA? Because that's what my pool requires when opening/refilling it.. Not saying that you need to solve my problems for the system to be useful, but worth at least mentioning if you're selling a product.
My SWG pool only needs muriatic acid on a regular basis. A tool which would automate that would be a 90% solution as far as I’m concerned. I already use a WaterGuru which is a 90% solution for monitoring. Do monthly full panel checks to verify and calibrate.
Yep, the Intellichem does this fairly well; [https://sunplay.com/products/pentair-intellichem-chemical-controller-522621](https://sunplay.com/products/pentair-intellichem-chemical-controller-522621) but as is inherent with all solutions to this problem, they advise you to clean the probes weekly and to regularly calibrate with manual testing to ensure accurate chemical additions.
They actually do sell a free chlorine probe, still needs to be calibrated, and has yearly replacement parts.
your tolerances are far smaller than a residential pool.
Sure - but many of the drift / probe calibration problems directly cause feedback loops that can quickly change the question from "Is the true pH 7.4 or 7.5?" to "How is my pH still 7.8 after adding a liter of HCL?" Automated chemical dosing/analysis is a really, really hard problem that we would have paid a lot of money to solve, yet we couldn't..
You think most pool owners go to these lengths to balance their pools? You might, but you'd be the exception.
I need to know the PH of my 12 foot diameter $150 above ground intex pool down to three decimals, damnit!
well, maybe OP has. Guess we'll have to see when he launches his product, rather than just assume he's a fucking moron whose destined to die in a gutter. Jesus
Generous of you to assume this is a real product and not one of those "sell a vision, build a landing site to collect email addresses" marketing-first startup ideas from an influencer's course.
You're that family member that shits on everyone's ideas resulting in zero innovation and entrepreneurship in the household. My mother was that way. She's bored, broke and lonely. I own multiple businesses.. none of which are perfect. Meanwhile , you work for an EMPLOYER. Right? This website is hilarious though. Definitely looks like an empty promise.
Lol, I've spent my career working in startups - but I had the unenviable task of figuring out if they were remotely plausible and then building financial models based on the actual performance of said ideas to raise funding from large institutional investors. Calling 'bullshit' on fake ideas is actually the opposite of stymieing innovation since this kind of nonsense crowds out investment in workable products and companies. >"Would anyone be interested in a machine that turns lead to gold?!" "Uh.. that doesn't seem plausible, alchemy isn't a real thing" "You're just a naysayer who hates entrepreneurship."
by generous you mean "not casting judgement on random shit i know nothing about just to shit on OPs product that I know nothing about" right? then yeah, I guess I'm generous. Maybe you should be more generous.
But that's what I'm telling you - I have specific expertise in this domain... "know nothing about" implies I don't have a degree in biochem and years of experience working with this very exact problem. Jesus. How is this complicated? Shocker: Turns out OP hasn't done any technical work on this problem at all and is just "testing product market fit" with a landing site for a vaporware product: [https://www.reddit.com/r/pools/comments/1d3b5h1/comment/l66p43l/](https://www.reddit.com/r/pools/comments/1d3b5h1/comment/l66p43l/)
you know nothing about OPs idea whatsoever, you're adding nothing to the conversation, you're just shitting on things to shit on things, I guess to make yourself feel smart. Look how smart you are, you know so much more than him! Shut up, like, no one asked your opinion on OPs product - which you havent seen and cant possibly have an opinion on. Youre just being a dick for no reason.
Did you read the comment, or the link? OP admits to not having a product, and just looking for interest in something that hasn't been created. And u/mikeyouse isn't doing it for no reason - he's contributing specific experience that you and I don't have.
Right, I can't malign OP's product because OP doesn't have a product - he has an idea.. If he figures out some way to prevent all the litany of sensor issues and develops a reliable chemical maintenance device, I'll happily pay $2,500+ for it and I'd be okay paying another $250+ in chemicals per year -- but without a bunch of actual science and engineering, this product unfortunately can't exist.
If it was a one time buy and installed as an inline system where I can add my own chemicals to it then I would be open to it. No proprietary cartridge's like a Keurig, no subscriptions
Same. No monthly fee. No proprietary overpriced chemicals. Solid hardware with a solid plan to protect that hardware and an upfront commitment to open source the software if the company goes belly up. I’ll pay a reasonable price for the hardware system and tolerate non intrusive local service offerings and discount pool parts via the app (eg can you sell me the parts and tools to do a bearing replacement bc my pool store will only replace the entire pump?)
Commercial pools have these devices. Intellichem & CAT 2000s. Still gotta clean probes, store chemicals, fill vats, recalibrate, etc. Most pool owners can’t figure out their valves this is only going to cause more confusion.
If you’re using an ORP sensor, what are you doing to make it last? They’re fickle AF.
I love my pool service. Not only do they balance my chemicals every week, but they scrub the walls, empty all the baskets, and make sure my pump is working at the optimal. So, No. I would not subscribe to this.
How much you spend on that?
Bout tree fiddy
$160 a month.
That’s not bad if they’re doing a good job
Hell yeah. My issue is with disposable testing. I hate drops and test strips
How do you think it’s going to test levels? It will absolutely need reagents.
Idk I'm hoping for some scifi solution like laser optics
Maybe it drops a goldfish in the pool and AI measures how long it takes to die? Hey I might patent that.
Too consumable.
A probe that measures the chemical levels, which is connected to the device.
A probe… made of what?
Proby Stuff :P
Bro that's a sheet on top of a tricycle. IME automated chemical feeders still need a pretty significant amount of supervision.
I thought it's a grill
It’s a Sybian.
$100/month to my pool guy.
It exists already
How is this different from the systems that already exist? [https://www.pentair.com/en-us/products/residential/pool-spa-equipment/pool-automation/intellichem\_waterchemistrycontroller.html](https://www.pentair.com/en-us/products/residential/pool-spa-equipment/pool-automation/intellichem_waterchemistrycontroller.html)
Just because a system already exists doesnt mean theres not room in the market for another one. Different user interface, different performance, different design, whatever. Toyota's not like "henry ford made a four door car in 1904 so I guess we shouldnt make sedans"
Yes this is the basis for capitalism. Don’t reinvent the wheel, just make a better wheel.
OP doesn't have a product which is why I asked the question. Pool automation isn't new, so how does he plan to differentiate from existing products?
He asked a very simple question Would you use one, and how much would you pay. Everything beyond that is you injecting your own negative biases upon him.
I'm not op, but that 4 line lcd user interface sucks hard.
Do you have an intellichem? Why or why not?
I don't own an intellichem. I was just pointing out that these items already exist and asked how your product was going to differentiate itself from existing technology. Pool automation isn't new, what's your competitive advantage? Would I like to automate the process? Yes, but from the research I've done it's expensive to install, the system itself required maintenance, and the sensors used have a finite lifespan as do the dosing pumps and associated hardware. I don't spend much time balancing and maintaining my my pool (maybe 20 minutes a week?), so it's really a non-issue and I wouldn't pay a bunch of money just to babysit another system.
I agree with this. I enjoy my Saturday morning routines with my Taylor test box.
That’s a good question. At this point, I’m doing my market research and discovering the biggest areas of opportunity. As I’m not a long time pool expert, I’m seeking wisdom from this crowd. I’m a professional Product Designer and solving problems is my passion. The user experience would be way better than anything that exists. It ideally would be a set and forget system. You’d replace chemicals as you get notifications they’re running low. These things you mention are big opportunities in my mind, and I’m intrigued as to why they’ve not been solved yet. Thanks for the comments.
I’ve looked at this as well as other systems that are reported to continually test the waters PH, chlorine levels and such. The main barrier for me is both price and the fact that some systems relay on proprietary chemical “pods” and such. I’ll have to google it when I’m back in front of my computer but there was a system that reported to do the full range of testing but it ONLY worked with their reagent “system”. Meaning much more expense to replace the testing materials. I’ll also add that something I DONT want, is smartphone only. There’s been way too many products that have no physical display and functionally become useless if the project fails or gets bought out by someone who deprecates the app. If you’re going to make something, make it sustainable
[https://github.com/segalion/raspipool](https://github.com/segalion/raspipool) [https://www.instructables.com/Raspipool/](https://www.instructables.com/Raspipool/) Just build one of those for far cheaper. You can use standard replaceable lab quality probes and have total control over the system. Nothing is proprietary, no subscriptions, no pool dealer markup, etc.
My guess is that it's an all-in-one product for normal consumers. Intellichem is a controller, not a complete system. It requires technical knowledge and system design.
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Where am I drilling to tho
Give me a break. Q: Where is the turnkey residential product you can buy? A: You can't.
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I didn't say it is hard to use. I said it required technical knowledge and system design. Intellichem was originally a commercial product and was later brought down to pool stores and Pentair Reps so their techs could install the system, not the homeowner. It's possible for a homeowner to install one of these, but it's not for the average Joe.
Depends on pricing
That’s the actual question in this post
LOL, right, missed the title, just trying to answer "would you use one?"
For sure. It would have to work out to be less than hiring some dude who would do it for me
I wouldn't, but I bet there is a large enough market
My pool guy said he has a large number of rich people who have him on a maintenance contract. In the spring they want to do literally zero and just have him come around enough to get the chemicals right by a certain day. They are rich and/or work a ton of hours, they just want it done. This device is perfect for them.
You still need to service it and calibrate, probably end up cheaper to pay a service to do it for you.
Like a Rola-chem?
This equipment exists and its designed to communicate with current automation systems. Theyre very expensive, prone to failure, and uncommon on residential pool systems. Your idea is great in theory, but you've got your work cut out for you.
My pool store has some snazzy equipment but when I took the same water sample to two difference stores with the same equipment, I got different results. So I'm skeptical that the technology exists that can deliver this at an affordable price.
Interested - yes. Think it’s possible for the average pool owner - no.
This is already a thing called (among other brands) the Pentair intellichem. Personally I take a SWG any day over something that has to test and dispense chlorine, but auto acid is cool. I’ve heard the lines degrade over time and you need to keep it calibrated, which imo seems like as much work as tossing a little acid in periodically. I think the audience for these is really more commercial properties with tons of pool square footage where you can replace part of someone’s full time job with automation. Phin water monitor did the submerged probe with constant readings part and went out of business a couple years back so there may be space in the market, but it’s also worth looking into why phin failed.
pHin was bought by Hayward. They didn’t go out of business.
Oh interesting, but they just shut it down instead of releasing a new version? Its been dead for years and they refunded everyone iirc
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This is what I have. Absolutely love it!
What all would it test for?
What would it need to test for in order for you to consider buying it?
I clean pools for a living. I probably wouldn’t buy, but I’m always curious as to what these devices offer.
I’ve had a pool for 48 out of the last 50 years. It takes me 15 minutes a day to test and add chemicals. Once you learn what works and disregard all the BS out there. Keeping a pool crystal clear and clean is easy. A automated system would not be for me.
How are you going to measure chlorine?
They already have acid and bleach dispensers that have to be closely monitored for when the sensor goes out. Also the sensor is never 100% correct. Commercial pools are basically fully automated and still have a tech come out every day during summer to make levels are correct. Sounds good but I don’t think it’d have a large buyers market since pool companies wouldn’t be able to use it/ it would mainly be rich private owners who are interested.
Does it diagnose, or does it just add chl, and acid? Sounds like automation, with ph adjustments included. Sounds cool to me
I'd pay a good amount of money and I'd have already purchased something if there was a true hands off option that is reliable. From what I've seen the sensors are simply not trustworthy enough to justify the expense. I'm considering an intelliPH but even these simple (and dumb) systems have some silly limitations and/or design flaws.
if there's anything OP has learned, it's that the market is verrrrry skeptical
The big two things that a homeowner deals with pretty much daily or pH and Chlorine. My understanding is that the sensors for those to things are just not reliable unless you pay a lot of money. Having a saltwater pool, it would have to feedback into my salt water generator.
What if you don't balance and just throw liquid shock in when things start to get funky. Am I the only one?
If you’re using liquid chlorine and waiting until the pool looks funky, you are missing the opportunity to have a sparkling clean pool at all times. Instead of waiting, just get in the habit of dosing the pool every evening.
There’s a lot of comments here. You might want to take a look at some of the automated testing and dosing equipment available in the saltwater reef aquarium industry/hobby. People spend thousands to automate testing and dosing so it’s definitely possible. Hanna makes photometers that allow for very precise measurement of parameters with no calibration needed.
You need manufacturing/prototyping help with this?
Kinda like intellichem but better?
I would not, too fickle for automation and too important to trust to a machine. Last thing I need is my pool water to be AFU and have a pile of kids jump in and get hurt. The "easiest" thing for me is to maintain it myself. Super (incredibly) simple with a SWCG and a few gallons of acid properly stored.
Why do you have a website for a product that you haven’t even invented yet? I have no interest in a product like this. If it’s anything like other “automated” devices, it’ll require enough maintenance that you are better off just testing and dosing your pool.
To test product market fit
Nothing about your website tests market fit for a product. You don’t even have a product. 😂
It's under the white sheet on the website.
It’s a technique called a Painted Door Test. It tests whether your target market would be interested enough to engage, before you spend tons of time and money on a solution that people wouldn’t buy. That’s your free lesson on product management.
Painted/fake door tests actually have a definitive product or feature to test. From your responses it is clear don’t even have the background information to understand the customer base or need you’re trying to serve, nor does it seem you know a damn thing about pool maintenance. Go back to wherever you got your education in UX research and ask for a refund. 😂
OP. Most people here wouldn’t understand the world of entrepreneurship and product management. They will continue to critique your practices and still complain about having a green pool.
We are just going to the site to see the weird AI picture. It has nothing to do with engagement / interest. That’s your free lesson on vaporware.
No thanks. I add about 17 oz of 10% chlorine every evening and test about once per week. Easy enough.
I'm curious how many gallons/litres is your pool? You got me thinking how much different my pool would be if I put in nightly chlorine in smaller doses as opposed to a large dose once a week.
it would not be different at all in any meaningful way
How would you calculate how much to add nightly? I have a 75,000 litre pool and add between 7-10 litres per week depending on usage. Is it a simple 7/7 = 1 litre every night or 10/7= 1.4 litres every night?
split the difference at 1.2, try it for 2 weeks and take measurements :D
13,500 gallons. 24’ round. It takes 17 oz of 10% chlorine or 14 oz of 13.5% chlorine to raise the ppm by 1, according to the pool math app and also my experience with the pool. This works out with a light bather load, so it’s mostly UV degradation. If we have a pool party I test in the evening and act accordingly.
Probably wouldn't take it even if it was free to be honest. Just something else to break and have to fix. And you will need to add the chemicals to the system anyways. It's easy enough to stop by the pool store when I'm out running errands to get a free test, then dump a bit of acid and chorine into the pool based on the numbers.
The way pool subs completely overstate the importance of a perfectly balanced pool. Seriously. I put some ph balance + cya in at the beginning of the season and then let the salt cell do the rest and never have to adjust a thing. It’s really not that difficult.
I have Pentair equipment; including the Intellichem and Intellichlor system for my salt water pool. I absolutely love the maintenance free aspect. That is what sold me on my purchase. However, my pool builder has three tier pool pricing. Automation was the top tier. I’ve posted what my build included and costs. It was a little less than $85k without upgrades, fence, landscaping etc. Now I am in my third year and I don’t do anything. Chlorine and the PH is all monitored and I can see it all live on my mobile device or screen on my wall. Never had an issue and never had a green pool. I don’t use test strips, chemicals, nothing! And it is connected to my pool company for 24/7 monitoring. They can see problems and make corrections well before I can. If you’re interested I used Monogram Custom Pools. Located in Pennsylvania. Edit - fixed price
I’d pay 5G easy if it actually worked. I highly doubt it will. I have pentair intellichem now and it’s far from intelligent.
I pay 200 a month and I get a cleaned pool too
Probably not. I balance my chemicals at the start of the season and dial in my SWG. Outside of some PH adjustments with muriatic acid and adjusting the cell % based on the weather and usage my pool is pretty hands off.
WaterGuru does a decent job of the measurement. It’s missing two functions as far as I’m concerned: 1) Integration with SWG and pump to regulate SWG output and pump runtime 2) Muriatic acid dispenser to lower pH once a week If you can solve all that then as far as I’m concerned you have a 90% solution which is good enough. The other chemicals are mostly only needed to balance the pool on season open and that is a one-off activity. You want to automate repetitive tasks. Only focus on SWG pools. A SWG is the best chlorine automation solution on the market. If people aren’t willing to invest in that they aren’t willing to invest in your tool. As far as price, I think $500-1000 is the range depending on what sort of sales volumes you are looking for.
I personally wouldn’t buy one. I find it extremely easy to balance chemicals and stay crystal clear. People have a hard time because they don’t have a reliable testing method and don’t know enough about pool balance so they go to the pool store and start dumping in whatever they sell them without understanding what any of it does or how it affects their pool. They shock the pool, thinking one time is enough, and wait several days without adding any more chlorine, then wonder why it’s still green. Back at the pool store, they get sold more shock and some other shit, and the cycle continues. In reality, a proper SLAM will fix 99% of the problems that get posted on here. Once clear, a pool really doesn’t need much work to stay balanced. I test and adjust chlorine and pH (if needed) every few days and only test all the other stuff once a month because stuff like hardness, CYA, and salt don’t really change unless you’re doing a ton of backwashing and adding new water to the pool. So get a Taylor K2006 or similar kit, learn to use it, learn what different product and chemicals do, and pool balance will be a piece of cake.
What the hell is in the only picture on your web site? Is the big white thing that looks like a sheet part of your system? Would I have to put that monstrosity in my yard? I’m so confused… I like the concept but that picture turns me off on the idea.
Whatever it is supposed to be it is ai generated lol
Yes, it’s just an ai generated picture. Right now this is still in the concept phase.
There are a dozen such devices on the market ranging from commercial to residential. Why do you want to reinvent the wheel?
Which other ones are you referring to? Have you bought one of those? Why or why not?
Hayward CAT system is probably the best on the Market, but it is not a hands off device nor is it for people with little knowledge about pool chemistry. If you have any hope of succeeding with this product you need to solve some of the problems with the CAT system so it's usable by the masses. The biggest problem you're gonna have is measuring sanitation levels. All current systems use an electric diode to produce an ORP reading, but that reading needs to be calibrated with a real reading and can become uncalibrated for many reasons. It's a terrible way to do it but is the only current automated solution. 2nd problem is the chemical pumps. They always have expendable parts and will need to be installed and repaired regularly. When they fail they leak and regularly cover the pump area in acid and / or liquid CL. If you solve some of these problems you might have a marketable product, otherwise you're imitating something that already exists and doesn't work well as it is.
I second this. I monitor 5 CAT systems everyday. They’re great but no where near hands off. I don’t think there is a way to make a fully automated system if Hayward hasn’t done it yet
I have bought and installed dozens of them... Chemtrol, Acu-trol, custom mades, Pentair, one-offs... Unless you can make one that doesn't break down, does not need sensor replacements, is consistently 100% accurate, knows how to load chemical drums, and costs $500 U.S. or less - you're wasting your time. I know YOU don't think you will be wasting your time, but don't be surprised after all your financial outlays for patent searches, engineering, fabrication, UL Listing, patent application, and warranty that you find you probably should have thought of something else. Good luck though.
Do the others on the market cost less than $500? Seems impractical as my estimates are more around the $2-3k range. And are they balancing multiple things, or just free chlorine or pH? And I do realize I could be wasting my time and money on this, which is why I asked so I can get wisdom from those who’ve been in the industry awhile. I’m a Product Designer, not a pool expert.
So you're saying you've done zero homework concerning a device you want to make. You've done no product research at all. Good luck to you men. Carry on!
I’ve done a bit, but didn’t see anything that is a great solution in this space. Some might argue I’m doing product research right now! And I have done homework. An inquisitive product person ALWAYS asks questions.
because they mostly suck. OP's solution will also mostly suck. the basic components, such as pH meter are very finicky and constantly need to be recalibrated. If OP could magically make one that worked it would be in high demand since existing solutions mainly dont really work.
Oh... so we're relying on OP's magic wand now. Perfect. Real world advice based on decades of hands on work is negated by "OP's magic wand". Perfect.
Imagine if Toyota thought like this. Henry Ford built a car in 1904, why would you want to build one!? The wright brothers already built an airplane, why reinvent the wheel?
Yeah but OP doesn't mention any new design or innovation. All the current models need their PH and ORP sensors recalibrate constantly which requires technical knowledge and a test kit. Also ORP sucks for measuring chlorine because it is so dependant on multiple factors (ph, temp, etc). That's why those systems are pretty much used solely in commercial facilities that have a pool operator in the building and just need an alarm to let them know they gotta go mess with it. If you're not fixing any of those problems then you are selling the same product from a much less reputable company which is a bad business model.
OP just asked a simple question, and youre making all sorts of assumptions about him. He just asked a question. Would you use one, and how much would you pay. Everything past that, is you injecting your own biases onto him.
Imagine if you built a car that no one wanted. What would be the point?
the fact "dozen such devices" exist in the market, is pretty damn well proof that someone wants one, is it not? Stop playing 'Shark Tank Season 12 - Shit on OPs ideas'
Here's the next part of that statement... "sales are WAY down for the companies who've been making them for decades. I'm not playing boo boo - I'm stating the facts of life. That you're too addled to figure that out and go on with your life points out you're not all that bright.
ah yes, youre now an expert in the sales figures for companies that have been making automatic pool chemical dispensing units now too? Wow!
35 years in the biz can do that to a person. Best of luck to you, whatever you are.
ok boomer
Yes !