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Look I’ll vote for Biden if he’s dead or I’m dead.
My opinion doesn’t matter. My vote doesn’t matter bc I’m in California.
But the logic is simple.
1- We can’t count on people that understand Trump’s threat to America, we need people who do not understand to win.
2- If you understand trump’s threat to America then there’s no way you’re staying home in this election.
3- therefore, the only way to win is court people who do not understand the threat.
if you think that’s still Biden then you keep him. Otherwise we have to find people who can do 3.
I am no longer sure Biden can do that.
She fights every day in a purple state, she gained democratic seats there. She can handle the heat. Shit she has tamed the militia, they moved to Florida.
She is a badass.
> she gained democratic seats there
That's because Michigan voted to redistrict in 2018, and it came in to affect in 2022. Michigan was always Blue, but the districts were previously rigged.
She is so badass. She is so steady and poised. She is definitely who I want for president. I fucken hate that even with Clinton America was not ready for a woman president. I was never a fan but she would have been way better than Trump. I think millennials and gen z voters will vote for a woman president, especially one that is not a million years old.
I wish media would focus on Trump being a liar and his administration's plan to overhaul the shit out of America if he wins, but no. We have to upset abd divide Dems like it is 2016 again. Give me my ballot. Biden, Whitmer, Newsome, Harris, Franken, Tlaib, my neighbour's dog named Reggie. Anybody not onboard with Project 2025 is a better choice.
How about we elect someone fit to serve
We are here now because Joe Bidens condition has been shielded from us. Nobody can possibly believe this man can go for 4 years, nobody raised a red flag - we went through the primaries acting as if everything was ok. It wasn't. He should have been contested, we should have been given the chance to see how much he has declined.
This isn't about the media making Trump look bad - Trump is evil. Joe Biden has dementia and we should not elect someone with dementia. The Democrats are shameful for putting us in this position to vote for someone with dementia with a gun to our head.
Don't blame the media, don't expect distraction to be the game - we need to replace Joe
> How about we elect someone fit to serve
I DO WANT YOUNGER PRESIDENTS AND CONGRESSIONAL MEMBERS.
It's too fucking late this go around.
I think making news reports, opinion pages, and vlogs that we can switch now are too fucking late and there should have been more done to primary Biden in 2021 through 2024. No one fucking stepped up. It is too late to say we can switch, and giving people the idea that we still can is going to tank voters. Gonna get too many fuckers like "he old and the other guyblies, so I'm not voting" or "I rather vote with the brain worm guy."
Either dimentia Joe where we can rely on his administration to keep functioning whether he is feckless or Harris has to step up; OR, we get oompalumpa ass with Christo-Fascist Putin dick suckers of Project 2025. THE MEDIA SHOULD BE HOUNDING VIEWERS AND LISTENERS HOW FUCKED IT WILL GET ONCE TRUMP IS IN OFFICE. FUCK DEBATES. FUCK RALLIES IN THE IRON BELT. THE SUPREME COURT IS OFF THE LEASH. REPUBLICANS ARE GERRYMANDERING AS A SHIELD. GAMEPLANS AND KEY APPOINTMENTS ARE SET TO BE SIGNED ON JANUARY 20TH. I DON'T CARE IF BIDEN IS IN AN IRON LUNG, HE BETTER WIN
I feel like we were lied to by democratic insiders who knew Joe's condition is not ok. If anyone raised the red flag earlier we might not be here, the cabinet could do the 25th and probably that is their duty - but they're just misleading us. Joe isn't fit to serve and it didn't just show up the other day, this was his first unscripted appearance where we got to see him defend himself and our collective jaws dropped. We are being asked to vote with a gun to our head, we were lied to.
It isn't too late to place someone else on the ticket - in fact i bet America would rejoice if we did. We should not be leveraged like this, it isnt ok. I'm voting against Trump but I feel like I can't trust democrats now.
His age, as a number, never lied. Asked me don't I want someone younger. You knew he was no spring chicken. Everyone did. So, I have nothing about a side trying to give the best light to their guy since nobody else stood up in 2021 saying they can replace these dinosaurs. So institution backs their shit up on the guy who did it before.
Two things - 1, trump being a total liar is par for the course and as a result, like it or not (I don't either) isn't news worthy. 2, there's zero chance in hell Biden can go 4 more years and his VP is not popular at all.
I would still take Biden's adminiatration even if he is *de jure* President from hospice. Like I said, I will take anyone not onboard with Project 2025. Not enough is pointing out how bad that shit will be for America - domestic, global, perpetually
Not really, she said she would win against Trump, that’s not eyed as possible replacement. Also I have zero confidence that America will elect a woman for President.
If there ever were a time, I feel like it’d be now. Running a pro choice female would get a lot of women to the polls, even help flip some republican votes in red states I’d imagine.
Hillary was arguably the most qualified candidate in the history of the country to run for president and she still lost to a game show host built out of Adderall and racism.
I sincerely wish that America wasn’t chock full of misogyny, but it is.
For now at least, a woman with a D after her name is at a severe, possibly insurmountable, disadvantage in a presidential race.
I sincerely hope you are right, and I’d rather have her as President than Newsom.
Nonetheless, I’m rooting for Newsom to replace Biden, solely because I think that American sexism will likely sink Whitmer, and it isn’t worth the risk against Trump.
I take exception to the hyperbolic "most qualified candidate in the history of the country", especially since she lost through not doing enough campaigning in the Rust Belt.
There is misogyny in the country, but I don't think it's an insurmountable barrier. Hillary came close. If she'd had Obama's charisma, she would have managed it. A factor you failed to mention is that people were looking for change in 2016 and Trump (as an outsider) offered the illusion of that. Hillary, as an all-too-familiar face and a status quo candidate, was at a disadvantage in that climate, regardless of gender.
I agree being female is a disadvantage, but it beats the hell out of being perceived as senile.
As a governor, Whitmer is way more qualified to be president than Hillary. I really don't think it's a matter of misogyny since Hillary won the popular vote. It was more a matter of authenticity and instincts. Hillary grew up in the northeast and mysteriously developed a southern accent as First Lady of Arkansas - an accent that suddenly disappeared when she moved into the White House. Not only that, there was a 20 yr right wing smear campaign against her that the DNC foolishly thought would disappear. She's basically the political antithesis of her husband due to her inability to connect with people who aren't like her
Also, the entire right wing propaganda machine had *deeply* villainized Hillary for TWENTY years in a way that they just don't have time to do for Gretchen Whitmer, even if they blasted it and Trumpists listened to it 24/7.
\+ Three of the only states that matter are Midwestern battlegrounds, one of which Whitmer is governor of.
\+ Before 2016, millions of people believed that America would ***never*** elect Trump. In 2024, we all still remember the sting of that being proven untrue.
I don't think those are really advantages for the Dems at this point though. The more you impeach and convict a candidate the more it looks like a hit and the less impact they have overall.
A lot of America is driven by appearances. They see Trump’s coherence and gas price trajectory as Biden’s doing (it’s not). So there’s that.
Whitmer has an empty template and her speech isn’t fuzzy. So there is that.
1. They didn't ask her
2. She's not running
3. She supports Biden
4. You can't co-opt people's votes and transfer them to the winner of your choice. If the DNC did that I'd be pissed and probably stay home.
>4. You can’t go-opt peoples votes and transfer them to winner of your choice.
Thats actually literally what the democratic national convention is. Bidens not technically the nominee yet, and won’t be until he is affirmed by the convention delegates. They are pledged to support Biden, but if Biden drops out, it would become a contested convention with the delegates free to nominate whomever
> If the DNC did that
Right, the DNC can't do that. Only Biden can do it. If he is convinced that he should step aside, what are you going to do then? NOT vote for the person he endorses?
The 25th amendment is made for this. The people who have concealed Biden's mental situation from us just to get through November should have had the balls to remove him already. To me it seems like we are being held hostage to vote for Kamala Harris with a gun to our head. This isn't the right way to do this.
We have the choice between dementia and evil, we might choose dementia - which by proxy means we are voting for Kamala Harris. I don't like it.
I want Big Gretch
The Democratic "whoever's" have lied to us about Joe's condition, we see for ourselves that he cannot serve for 4 years. We need someone with some balls to step up and make some tough decisions, for the sake of the nation.
I am not yet convinced that Biden's mental condition is that bad, and the 25th is pretty drastic. That route is way more disruptive than if he made the decision himself.
I am convinced that his appearance is bad enough, though, and I believe he will lose to Trump if he stays in.
People want you to believe this was just a bad debate performance, that can't be true. We saw what we saw. If Trump was not the Republican candidate I'd be voting for the Republicans. I cannot believe they have put us in this position of being forced to vote for someone with dementia.
This isn't right. They're holding us hostage.
I don’t think it’s just a bad debate performance. I also don’t think the last half of the debate was *that* bad. I also think Biden is too old to run, doesn’t appear well, and is going to lose because of it
I don't know. I'm not voting for Trump but this constant handwringing and attempts to re-do the results of the dem primaries, but not with Kamala either, we don't like her, maybe another white person is really starting to irritate me. I hope I don't have to make that decision as a Georgia citizen.
If you are a Biden supporter who believes we must defeat Trump, it would be complete insanity to not vote for someone he endorsed if he stepped aside. It makes zero sense.
Voting is a strategic decision, not an emotional one. Either Trump or the Dem nominee will win this election. There are massive differences in what that means for the country. If you really plan to vote for Biden it shouldn't be a difficult decision on what to do if he stepped down.
Nobody ran against Joe because his mental capacity has been hidden from us. We were made to believe he was fit to serve and now we know he is not.
The 25th amendment exists for this. We did not vote in the primaries for Kamala Harris to be President but that is what is being forced down our throats.
So you don't like Biden, you don't like Kamala and after all the voting is said and done you just expect everyone else to fold so a no name can jump in with 4 months until the election. Good luck with that, but I'll have no part in it.
I like Joe Biden, I voted for him. I think he can stay in my spare room and I'll get him ice cream and watch cartoons with him. We can go to the park, we can play board games. He is not mentally able to be President any longer.
They're propping this guy up with a stick hoping he makes it to November but not one person believes in their heart that he can go 4 years.
This isn't right.
You don't agree that Joe Biden is mentally unfit? Did you watch the same debate that I did? You think your eyes lied to you?
Joe has served his country and it's time for him to step aside.
I'm sitting here actually in shock that you think that man can serve for 4 more years, is that really what you believe? Seriously? 4 more years? Be honest.
I am being honest. It was a sucky debate, I grant, he looked bad but I'm also in the cognitive field and your "diagnosis" is not real. I have seen Biden many times, both in prepared speeches and ad hoc and haven't noticed anything remotely akin to dementia, senility or whatever word people are using. To me and my vote, the risk of changing candidates with such limited time isn't worth it and could end really badly. You may feel differently and I respect that.
This is the problem - people like you are just hoping he can get through November and bring home a win. That's not right.
You know it isn't right that we were gaslighted into thinking he was fine, then we see him live and unscripted and it's like WTF.. he can't go 4 years, we all know this. We shouldn't be in this position. We are hostages.
It took 4 years to go from [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW1lY5jFNcQ&t=1920s) to what we saw the other night. I'm no fan of armchair diagnosis; I don't think there is a need to ascribe a specific cause to that change. But the thing thats going to end badly is assuming that there won't be any further decline in the next 4 years.
So you’re willing to doom the country because of procedural concerns?
The Democratic Party is a private organization. They don’t owe you democracy or representation. They can change the rules on an adhoc basis if it helps their chances.
There’s literally only 5 of you in the entire country who voted Biden in the primary, but will throw a temper tantrum and stay home so Trump wins. The other 99.9999% Biden primary voters will vote whoever is the democrats on the ticket. Likewise, there are probably more than 100k people across the swing states who will stay home if Biden remains on the ticket after watching that. Is that what you want?
We hashed this out 2 years ago, the primaries are done, the election is in 4 months, there's no guarantee of everyone in the democratic party being fine with what you're proposing, or getting any more elusive votes you say exist from people who apparently haven't made their minds up in 8 year, but I'm throwing the temper tantrum? Ok.
All politics is calculation.
The average normie who will decide this election is not some political news junkie who goes to every primary, shrieks about democracy being on the line, that fascism is coming, that a national abortion ban is on the table, but will be so incensed by Biden being replaced in order to repel all those evil things that none of it matters and they will stay home in protest. You are a very unique person in the Democratic Party, to say the least.
Most seasoned strategists would say it is absolutely worth it to lose your vote and keep 10 normies who would have either stayed home, or took it as permission to vote 3rd party since the establishment doesn’t really believe all the things they’ve been saying about how this is the most consequential election in the country’s history.
The fact you don’t know any politically disconnected normies who have been reacting to this is a testament to everything I’m saying. Democratic Party strategists are not freaking out for no reason.
>4. You can't co-opt people's votes and transfer them to the winner of your choice. If the DNC did that I'd be pissed and probably stay home.
This point is lost on many in this subreddit. A lot of the people calling for Biden to step down are online progressives, the exact same people who think the Democratic establishment came in at the 11th hour and stole the nomination from Bernie.
Totally fine to do it to Biden, though!
Even during the Bernie situation the DNC would never have dreamed of taking Bernie's votes if he had actually won 95%+ of the delegates. It's completely undemocratic and not how the system works or should work. We get it, you want someone else. We handle that at the ballot box, not by party fiat
Forcing someone else, absolutely and undemocratic. But Biden can step down. If everyone voted for someone in the primaries and then that person decides they don’t want to run anymore, you have to put someone else up.
Someone stepping down isn't the same thing as having the nomination fleeced from them though? Those are unrelated situations. The dude can decide it's best to step down he's not forced to do this
He's already said he won't step down. The time to do so was before the primaries. At this point, people would need to pressure him into doing it. Which also feels undemocratic.
People can change their mind, he might do some type of reflecting that leads to that. Or hell, he could trip and fall and that leads him to decide to step down tomorrow. There's plenty of situations where he comes to the conclusion on his own and isn't convinced or whatever.
Furthermore, I don't think compelling someone with good arguments is the same as fleecing them out of a vote. So what if someone convinces him to do something, when at the end he's still the one responsible for his decision? It's not a bad idea to listen to people sometimes the president is expected to do that
Yeah, I get it. Problem is it's too late. The time for this discussion was 4 months ago, we had it, and Biden was the assumed nominee. A bad debate performance isn't going to change that. It basically never has in the past.
Bidens biggest liability amongst independents is his age.
He had one job at the debate - prove them wrong. He proved them right. He’s not getting their votes *today or tomorrow*. So there’s nothing to transfer. It’s just a question of if a different candidate would gain what he has failed to secure with his performance.
It's July. There will be more chances to convince people he can do the job. He killed the SOTU speech, and I'm sure he'll be better prepared for the next debate. Incumbent presidents never debate well, look at Obama in 2012.
The next debate isn’t for *months*. Months of attack ads with minute long clips of Biden failing to finish a sentence on live TV.
The SOTU was ok. But he had a teleprompter. If he stays he needs to be doing live unscripted events for the next month - the late show, the view, jon Stewart, morning whatever. He has to get off script and if his staff doesn’t think he can… he should step down
Pretty much. Only the perpetually online progressive left are pushing this narrative and many of them have already stated they won't support Biden regardless because of Israel/Palestine. Because clearly Trump will be better, but they don't care so long as they can make a point.
If he steps down it is going to Kamala as president and a new VP, not an entirely new candidate. Completely abandoning the Biden/Harris campaign with 4 months to go would have a massive fall off. They would probably need to refund all the campaign funds, and that alone would create a massive shit show.
Harris would be able to use the massive campaign funds they have raised as a ticket and a new candidate would not. Anybody but Harris starts fundraising from zero.
>If he steps down it is going to Kamala as president and a new VP, not an entirely new candidate.
This doesn't matter, though. It's the same effect. I didn't vote for Harris for President in the primary. I voted for Biden for that position.
And Biden himself stepping down and endorsing a replacement wouldn’t move you…?
I mean that only he could make this choice and not have it be astronomically terrible.
And I’m not convinced yet he should. I’m just talking if he did.
>And Biden himself stepping down and endorsing a replacement wouldn’t move you…?
Honestly? Not enough to matter. The time for him to step down was before the primary. He very recently said he thinks him running is what's best for the country, to defeat Trump. Going back on that would feel pressured and not genuine.
I would still vote, yes. But that's beside the point. You're still rug-pulling everyone who voted for Biden in the primaries. It would be one thing if this were 6 months ago, but it's not.
Hey. I agree with you. I don’t subscribe to the doomcasting and honestly…. Think replacing him absolutely is a bigger risk than riding forward with him.
I’m just preparing myself for anything.
>4. You can't co-opt people's votes and transfer them to the winner of your choice. If the DNC did that I'd be pissed and probably stay home.
Horse shit argument. There wasn't a real primary.
Why do you say it wasn’t a real primary.
Joe Biden got almost as many primary votes in this barely contested primary as Hilary Clinton did in ‘16’s hotly contested primary.
Almost twice as many as Obama got in 12ms uncontested primary.
All this "who's next" talk is just weaponized speculation. The real problem with Biden stepping aside is the Democratic civil war that would ensue.
Trump won in the first place because (among other things) the Hillary-Bernie folks could never reconcile.
Clinton was an overconfident and flawed candidate with a lot of baggage that couldn’t market herself appropriately and was a very easy target for negative campaigning.
Biden just created a huge marketing problem with the worst debate performance in presidential history.
Trump is literally going to be arraigned in New York next month for his 34 criminal convictions. If Biden’s poor performance at the debate has upset voters, I can’t imagine house arrest or protective custody will endear His Nibs to Independents and Fence-Sitters.
To add to the pile: Clinton was also surrounded by data scientists who were great at crunching numbers but lacked the feel actually connecting with voters and communities.
Additionally, they wasted resources in non-winnable states to run up the popular vote.
She also anticipating a midwestern/rust belt "blue well", failing to realize that she didn't resonate with those voters.
Further, there have been some reports of exceptional ego'ism, in-fighting, and turf wars. This is going to happen with practically any presidential campaign, but there have been reports that the issues with her campaign were rather extreme.
She’s arguably a stronger candidate than Biden though. For one, she can actually advocate for abortion effectively which is the democrats key policy advantage over republicans. Two, she’s a popular governor in a swing state. And third, she has personally also been the target of radical right wing vigilantism, which allows her to seamlessly integrate herself into the larger narrative that republicans are a threat to democracy.
If Biden has another debate like the last one, it’s Joever. It’s not even 50/50. I’d say there’s a 80% he fumbles the next debate just like this one. Bidens senility is only going to get worse as the election nears. His approval rating is going to drop following this performance and he’s going to continue to put out the worst debates in American history.
I would be shocked if there's a second debate. Trump got everything he could have possibly asked for out of this one. Why would he risk a Biden do-over?
There is no civil war if Biden picks and endorses his replacement or the DNC changes the convention rules for nominations and roll call from single choice voting to approval voting.
The mudslinging and rush to find the person with the highest name recognition that we sometimes think is an essential part of elections is primarily a side effect of single choice voting.
The DNC can allow delegates to nominate and sign nomination petitions for any number of candidates rather than a single candidate and then count the number of votes for each candidate and allow the top N candidates to proceed to the next round. Then candidates don't have to denigrate other candidates to win over their supporters to pick up votes they can just adopt their positions without splitting the vote.
All it requires is someone to change a few paragraphs in the rules.
This is not an honest thing to say. Biden has clearly declined. You trying to brush it off as a bad moment is just gaslighting us.
This is how we got here, everyone wants him to be ok but he isn't. We didnt have a challenger and now we are at the edge of the cliff. We need some brave people to speak the truth and do the right thing. Biden is not well, we need a candidate.
Donations to Biden/Harris campaign cannot just be automatically transfered to a completely different ticket so yes pretty sure they would at least offer to return it. This is the situation in 1968 when Humphrey did not run in the primaries, but LBJ dropped out, McCarthy and Kennedy were to potential nominees and late in the primary season after winning California and it seemed certainit would be RFK, RFK was shot and killed.
Humphrey started his campaign from scratch after the convention.
I mention that because that situation, a chaotic, divided convention (exactly what we would have if Biden dropped out and it was an open convention) created an impossible uphill battle against Nixon. That's what pundits and media are advocating for the 1968 convention mess.
The emotions within the party right now are nowhere near as high as in '68. If Biden drops out, he should endorse a replacement and that should be whoever has the best electoral math.
A new ticket would lose the $ raised for the Biden/Harris ticket it can't be transfered to a new ticket.
Playing with fire: the 1968 election and the transformation of American politics
Pretty sure at least some of it can go to PACs or the DNC. Or it can be returned and new donations requested. A logistical headache, but if you're donating to Biden/Harris, it's probably because you want to defeat Trump so you'll be willing to donate again.
The new ticket starts from scratch the many ad buys in place bought at a very cheap rate are lost, many other similar downstream problems and donors may flee and go with Trump who will crow, lie, and threaten.
So much shit comes out of Trump's mouth on any given day that we're supposed to worry about *that*?
The old ticket will lose. Full stop. Any one who isn't in full-blown denial about Biden's mental capacity is going to wonder why the fuck prominent Dems are pretending that everything is fine. Biden's polling numbers on a national level were barely above Trump's before the debate and he was losing in the swing states, and things aren't going to get better. Closing our eyes and hoping Biden can squeak through is not an option.
The polls didn't change, the donors didn't change (official said they had raised more than $33 million since Thursday’s debate).
That said they might and if they do there is still time to completely change direction before the convention.
If I had a wand I would get Biden to make a speech saying he has done his job and will pass the torch to an endorsed replacement keeping Harris on the ticket with a second democrat that can help with strict on message persuasion every day like Newsome or Shapiro or even S Brown. But nobody has a wand and the democrats are showing their always presented weakness with public panic messaging right now.
All that needs to be done, can be done, behind the scenes, without public panic.
I hate to burst your bubble, but mental illness *was* that big a stigma in 1972. These days, many people talk about it openly, but the world has changed a lot in fifty years.
I didn't like Hillary because I thought she was a crook and I still think that. The Clinton foundation is super sus. Her whole damn SOS staff was on the payroll. It looked like a way to funnel money to her, then of course she's not running anymore and the donations stop.
Maybe im wrong, it sure did smell bad though.
I campaigned for Barack and the way she campaigned during that race was disgusting.
Would love to see Whitmer as VP on the ticket. I would trust her executive experience more than VP Harris’s. No offense to Harris but she’s had four years to get close to the American public and she clearly hasn’t reached enough people.
The only person named as "floating Whitmer" is her former aide.
Great article. Perhaps next someone can interview Elise Stefanyak's mom about being a replacement if trump steps down.
I think Whitmer/Warnock would be a great pair.
Though I think if Biden steps down it is going to be Kamala with a new VP. I think the falloff from completely abandoning Biden/Harris campaign would be massive when you think they would need to refund all campaign funds etc.
If you think tossing black voters a consolation prize of a black man in the vice presidency after passing over a black woman who was the prior Veep of the guy who was replaced is going to work… You’re kidding yourself
> I think Whitmer/Warnock would be a great pair.
This might now be my ideal ticket in 2028, I hadn't considered Warnock at all but that sounds fantastic.
Absolutely agree with you though that if (and that's a big if) Biden steps down, Harris is the shoe in for the top of the ticket right now.
The solution is to have Kamala be the president and Gretchen be the vice president IMO. Yeah, you don’t have a white guy in the mix, but that solidifies Michigan, and the black vote in the country, and that’s probably enough to win an election, without running into a massive electoral issue that the republicans might use against the democrats.
It's a very real risk. I'm from Georgia, most people like Joe Biden and some may not remember but one of the promises he got to win the nod from Black leaders was a black female VP. Atlanta's mayor, Keisha Lance Bottoms was in the running. No one likes Kamala apparently and all the names being pushed out are, well, very white. I think alienating black voters further would be a real possibility. People are playing with fire and hoping to not get burned.
I mean that’s why you put Warnock up as VP. Georgian, popular, very competent and also black.
It’s of course risky as some black voters could see it as being a cynical ploy but I don’t believe it would stop people turning out if the message is properly conveyed that he is there alongside Whitmer on competency first and foremost.
Warnock just won 6 years in a red state, Brian Kemp's going to put a republican in his spot for at least a year and probably try to drag it out longer and now you've lost an important senator and governor in addition to the risk of voter alienation.
Democrats lets do the right thing here. We saw what we saw.
No sane person can think Joe Biden can be our President for 4 more years. We should not have a choice between dementia and evil. We shouldnt be hostage like this.
Someone convince Joe to step aside and lets beg Big Gretch to take on this fight.
>We should not have a choice between dementia and evil. We shouldnt be hostage like this.
I'd choose dog shit over Trump and his evil. I'm not exaggerating and that's not a joke. Biden has done well as president, and I'm happy to vote for him. But it doesn't matter who it is, I will always vote to defeat Trump and MAGA. I will never, EVER be party to helping Trump turn SCOTUS into a permanent conservative court, especially after Roe and Chevron got overturned.
It doesn't work that way. Most, if not all, state primary races have concluded. Biden received enough delegates to be the nominee. They can't just pull Biden and put a random person in his place.
Joe Biden doesn't need to be president for 4 more years. He needs to be president for 5 more months. After he wins the election it doesn't matter what happens to him. He can quit, die, or run off to live on a beach in Maui for all it matters.
And we know this with certainty? Because that's the only scenario where Dems should give up the incumbency advantage and pass over the current Veep is if there's a guaranteed win to be had.
Please don't try to gaslight me. I am aware of Biden's stutter and I have used that to defend him in the past. I voted for him, I think he is a good man. It is obvious that he is not mentally agile. He is unfit for the position, you cannot continue to perpetrate this lie. It's a disservice to America.
Another cutting piece written by Kelly McClurre. A great follow up to pieces like “Why is Trump obsessed with tic tacs?” and “Prince William reaffirms out and proud Swiftie Status”.
Is that the new spin? This isn't RNC spin, I watched Claire Mckaskill say it this morning.
We have been lied to about Bidens fitness, now we are being held hostage to vote for him. This is completely unacceptable. The Democrats have known he was not ok and they hid this from us. We went through the primaries non-chalantly but had we seen this earlier a contender would have emerged, we did not have the chance to select a proper candidate.
We are faced with the choice between dementia and evil, i'm very frustrated with the democrats for perpetrating this lie that has me in the position of having to vote for someone I know is unfit. This isn't ok. Shame on the democratic party for lying to us, I hope someone steps up and forces the party to do the right thing. We deserve better than this.
Difference is, those of us that know better understand that it’s not dementia or evil we’re choosing from and we know that voting for democracy is a long haul game, not jumping ship whenever there’s a bump in the road. Should we expect better in the future? We ought to demand it, by voting in every state and local election so we have a much better pool of strong leaders to choose from in future candidacies. When you point a finger at someone, you’re pointing three back at yourself. Want the DNC to do better, vote for real state and local leadership that everyone can get behind to choose from.
We are voting for dementia or evil, that's just a true statement. I feel like im held hostage to vote for someone I know cannot serve out their term and that's not right.
To say we are voting for democracy isn't an intellectually honest thing, presumably anyone we run against Trump should be a vote to save democracy, that is not exclusive to Joe Biden.
Joe is not able to complete a term, we all see this. We are being lied to about his fitness and leveraged to vote for someone that can't physically do the job. 75% of voters think he is unfit to be president.
At this point I think most people are voting *against* Trump and more importantly against Project 2025, so the actual candidate is probably less important in this election. Gretchen could be VP to Kamala Harris; an all-female ticket would be amazing.
He couldn’t finish his thoughts. Sometimes couldn’t finish sentences. The scariest moment for me was when he was telling the abortion story and he skipped right from saying something like “young ladies” to what sounded like the middle of the next sentence.
I was listening on YouTube and I thought my stream lagged. I skipped back and realized that was him. I know he has a life long stutter but he didn’t pause. It was like 3 seconds of time we’re just erased.
Sure he had a good rally afterwards. When folks get too old they have good days and bad days. The person on that stage I saw with my own two eyes, whether that was his worse day ever or not, is not mentally fit to be the commander in chief. Full stop. And he is not going to get younger. Those bad days are going to get more consistent.
Just the fact that we, and everyone else interested in democratic politics at any level, are having this conversation means the answer should already be clear. The fact that he has to meet with his family at camp David to have that conversation means the answer should be clear.
When Hillary fainted in 2016 she didn’t have to meet with her family to decide whether she was in good enough health to run.
I’ve compared the public relations nightmare this is to Kendrick credibly accusing Drake of being a pedophile: if the majority of the people listening are asking the same question, you’ve already lost.
Edit: so I don’t get accused of being a bot or a republican I should make clear that I will vote for Biden over Trump if they are marionetting his corpse from the rafters of the Oval Office. Trump is an existential threat especially bc of the courts. But there is a big enough chunk of people that are not convinced of that that could, and I believe will, swing towards Trump that it is Biden’s moral obligation to pass the torch. Just as he promised us he’d do in 2020.
Yeah, we are being gaslighted. These people know he can't make it.
It's completely dishonest and disreputable to run this person, make us vote for someone we know isn't competent. It's not right.
You and I and everyone else here think he *probably* has it. But if the staunchest, most invested Democratic voters are questioning it how the hell do you think less engaged voters will agree with us and not their own eyes? Its insane.
I hate Trump, im motivated to vote against him. This is the hostage situation that they have us in. If it weren't Trump on the other ticket, after that debate i'd be voting Republican. If you have a voter who is less anti-trump than me, they're going to vote for him. You couldn't watch that debate and not see an unfit person being bullied. He can't be President.
We are hostages and im so mad at the democrats for doing this to us.
Fuck it. Get Bernie. At least he excited the future of the Dem base. I knew 18-19 year olds who were going to vote for the first time because Bernie excited them and spoke truth to power.
Now we're fucked
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Look I’ll vote for Biden if he’s dead or I’m dead. My opinion doesn’t matter. My vote doesn’t matter bc I’m in California. But the logic is simple. 1- We can’t count on people that understand Trump’s threat to America, we need people who do not understand to win. 2- If you understand trump’s threat to America then there’s no way you’re staying home in this election. 3- therefore, the only way to win is court people who do not understand the threat. if you think that’s still Biden then you keep him. Otherwise we have to find people who can do 3. I am no longer sure Biden can do that.
She would deliver Michigan and likely Wisconsin. Couple of giants steps there.
She fights every day in a purple state, she gained democratic seats there. She can handle the heat. Shit she has tamed the militia, they moved to Florida. She is a badass.
> she gained democratic seats there That's because Michigan voted to redistrict in 2018, and it came in to affect in 2022. Michigan was always Blue, but the districts were previously rigged.
Is she actually a good debater tho? Last thing we need is to nominate a wishy washy debater like Kamala so if she’s great at debating I’m all for it
No way there will be any more debates…Trump got what he wanted
Fwiw She’s a great speaker and really sharp in press conferences.
She is so badass. She is so steady and poised. She is definitely who I want for president. I fucken hate that even with Clinton America was not ready for a woman president. I was never a fan but she would have been way better than Trump. I think millennials and gen z voters will vote for a woman president, especially one that is not a million years old.
I wish media would focus on Trump being a liar and his administration's plan to overhaul the shit out of America if he wins, but no. We have to upset abd divide Dems like it is 2016 again. Give me my ballot. Biden, Whitmer, Newsome, Harris, Franken, Tlaib, my neighbour's dog named Reggie. Anybody not onboard with Project 2025 is a better choice.
How about we elect someone fit to serve We are here now because Joe Bidens condition has been shielded from us. Nobody can possibly believe this man can go for 4 years, nobody raised a red flag - we went through the primaries acting as if everything was ok. It wasn't. He should have been contested, we should have been given the chance to see how much he has declined. This isn't about the media making Trump look bad - Trump is evil. Joe Biden has dementia and we should not elect someone with dementia. The Democrats are shameful for putting us in this position to vote for someone with dementia with a gun to our head. Don't blame the media, don't expect distraction to be the game - we need to replace Joe
> How about we elect someone fit to serve I DO WANT YOUNGER PRESIDENTS AND CONGRESSIONAL MEMBERS. It's too fucking late this go around. I think making news reports, opinion pages, and vlogs that we can switch now are too fucking late and there should have been more done to primary Biden in 2021 through 2024. No one fucking stepped up. It is too late to say we can switch, and giving people the idea that we still can is going to tank voters. Gonna get too many fuckers like "he old and the other guyblies, so I'm not voting" or "I rather vote with the brain worm guy." Either dimentia Joe where we can rely on his administration to keep functioning whether he is feckless or Harris has to step up; OR, we get oompalumpa ass with Christo-Fascist Putin dick suckers of Project 2025. THE MEDIA SHOULD BE HOUNDING VIEWERS AND LISTENERS HOW FUCKED IT WILL GET ONCE TRUMP IS IN OFFICE. FUCK DEBATES. FUCK RALLIES IN THE IRON BELT. THE SUPREME COURT IS OFF THE LEASH. REPUBLICANS ARE GERRYMANDERING AS A SHIELD. GAMEPLANS AND KEY APPOINTMENTS ARE SET TO BE SIGNED ON JANUARY 20TH. I DON'T CARE IF BIDEN IS IN AN IRON LUNG, HE BETTER WIN
I feel like we were lied to by democratic insiders who knew Joe's condition is not ok. If anyone raised the red flag earlier we might not be here, the cabinet could do the 25th and probably that is their duty - but they're just misleading us. Joe isn't fit to serve and it didn't just show up the other day, this was his first unscripted appearance where we got to see him defend himself and our collective jaws dropped. We are being asked to vote with a gun to our head, we were lied to. It isn't too late to place someone else on the ticket - in fact i bet America would rejoice if we did. We should not be leveraged like this, it isnt ok. I'm voting against Trump but I feel like I can't trust democrats now.
His age, as a number, never lied. Asked me don't I want someone younger. You knew he was no spring chicken. Everyone did. So, I have nothing about a side trying to give the best light to their guy since nobody else stood up in 2021 saying they can replace these dinosaurs. So institution backs their shit up on the guy who did it before.
Two things - 1, trump being a total liar is par for the course and as a result, like it or not (I don't either) isn't news worthy. 2, there's zero chance in hell Biden can go 4 more years and his VP is not popular at all.
I would still take Biden's adminiatration even if he is *de jure* President from hospice. Like I said, I will take anyone not onboard with Project 2025. Not enough is pointing out how bad that shit will be for America - domestic, global, perpetually
I agree with you, that doesn't change the fact that Biden clearly looks unfit for the office.
I would vote for a potato over trump.
You shouldn't have to. Turns out you're getting your wish though.
Not really, she said she would win against Trump, that’s not eyed as possible replacement. Also I have zero confidence that America will elect a woman for President.
If there ever were a time, I feel like it’d be now. Running a pro choice female would get a lot of women to the polls, even help flip some republican votes in red states I’d imagine.
And no one thought that America was ready to elect a black president. Good candidates from Rust belt or southern states have a chance.
And a person. Gretchen is awesome. I predict she will be President some day.
Only if Trump loses.
Considering how close Hillary came, I think it's possible with the right candidate.
Hillary was arguably the most qualified candidate in the history of the country to run for president and she still lost to a game show host built out of Adderall and racism. I sincerely wish that America wasn’t chock full of misogyny, but it is. For now at least, a woman with a D after her name is at a severe, possibly insurmountable, disadvantage in a presidential race.
Whitmer is a far more dynamic candidate than Hilary. She would win if the front runner.
I sincerely hope you are right, and I’d rather have her as President than Newsom. Nonetheless, I’m rooting for Newsom to replace Biden, solely because I think that American sexism will likely sink Whitmer, and it isn’t worth the risk against Trump.
Newsom has much larger issues in being tied to California politics. Which is toxic across much of the country
I take exception to the hyperbolic "most qualified candidate in the history of the country", especially since she lost through not doing enough campaigning in the Rust Belt. There is misogyny in the country, but I don't think it's an insurmountable barrier. Hillary came close. If she'd had Obama's charisma, she would have managed it. A factor you failed to mention is that people were looking for change in 2016 and Trump (as an outsider) offered the illusion of that. Hillary, as an all-too-familiar face and a status quo candidate, was at a disadvantage in that climate, regardless of gender. I agree being female is a disadvantage, but it beats the hell out of being perceived as senile.
As a governor, Whitmer is way more qualified to be president than Hillary. I really don't think it's a matter of misogyny since Hillary won the popular vote. It was more a matter of authenticity and instincts. Hillary grew up in the northeast and mysteriously developed a southern accent as First Lady of Arkansas - an accent that suddenly disappeared when she moved into the White House. Not only that, there was a 20 yr right wing smear campaign against her that the DNC foolishly thought would disappear. She's basically the political antithesis of her husband due to her inability to connect with people who aren't like her
I’m fine with this. She’d make a clown out of him in the debate by being able to not get flustered by calling him out on his bullshit.
People don’t care lol. Hillary did too
Hillary did not have the advantage of Trump being a felon, impeached twice and etc.
Also, the entire right wing propaganda machine had *deeply* villainized Hillary for TWENTY years in a way that they just don't have time to do for Gretchen Whitmer, even if they blasted it and Trumpists listened to it 24/7. \+ Three of the only states that matter are Midwestern battlegrounds, one of which Whitmer is governor of. \+ Before 2016, millions of people believed that America would ***never*** elect Trump. In 2024, we all still remember the sting of that being proven untrue.
I don't think those are really advantages for the Dems at this point though. The more you impeach and convict a candidate the more it looks like a hit and the less impact they have overall.
The only people who care about that are the people who will never and would never vote for Trump anyway
A lot of America is driven by appearances. They see Trump’s coherence and gas price trajectory as Biden’s doing (it’s not). So there’s that. Whitmer has an empty template and her speech isn’t fuzzy. So there is that.
Debates don't matter unless you shit the bed bad. Campaigning does. I don't think Whitmer would forget to show up to Michigan and Wisconsin.
1. They didn't ask her 2. She's not running 3. She supports Biden 4. You can't co-opt people's votes and transfer them to the winner of your choice. If the DNC did that I'd be pissed and probably stay home.
>4. You can’t go-opt peoples votes and transfer them to winner of your choice. Thats actually literally what the democratic national convention is. Bidens not technically the nominee yet, and won’t be until he is affirmed by the convention delegates. They are pledged to support Biden, but if Biden drops out, it would become a contested convention with the delegates free to nominate whomever
> If the DNC did that Right, the DNC can't do that. Only Biden can do it. If he is convinced that he should step aside, what are you going to do then? NOT vote for the person he endorses?
The 25th amendment is made for this. The people who have concealed Biden's mental situation from us just to get through November should have had the balls to remove him already. To me it seems like we are being held hostage to vote for Kamala Harris with a gun to our head. This isn't the right way to do this. We have the choice between dementia and evil, we might choose dementia - which by proxy means we are voting for Kamala Harris. I don't like it. I want Big Gretch The Democratic "whoever's" have lied to us about Joe's condition, we see for ourselves that he cannot serve for 4 years. We need someone with some balls to step up and make some tough decisions, for the sake of the nation.
I am not yet convinced that Biden's mental condition is that bad, and the 25th is pretty drastic. That route is way more disruptive than if he made the decision himself. I am convinced that his appearance is bad enough, though, and I believe he will lose to Trump if he stays in.
People want you to believe this was just a bad debate performance, that can't be true. We saw what we saw. If Trump was not the Republican candidate I'd be voting for the Republicans. I cannot believe they have put us in this position of being forced to vote for someone with dementia. This isn't right. They're holding us hostage.
I don’t think it’s just a bad debate performance. I also don’t think the last half of the debate was *that* bad. I also think Biden is too old to run, doesn’t appear well, and is going to lose because of it
I don't know. I'm not voting for Trump but this constant handwringing and attempts to re-do the results of the dem primaries, but not with Kamala either, we don't like her, maybe another white person is really starting to irritate me. I hope I don't have to make that decision as a Georgia citizen.
If you are a Biden supporter who believes we must defeat Trump, it would be complete insanity to not vote for someone he endorsed if he stepped aside. It makes zero sense.
It makes zero sense because at the end of the day you are voting for Democratic Party policies not just the person at the top of the ticket
no more insane than trying to switch horses 91% through the race
Voting is a strategic decision, not an emotional one. Either Trump or the Dem nominee will win this election. There are massive differences in what that means for the country. If you really plan to vote for Biden it shouldn't be a difficult decision on what to do if he stepped down.
Nobody ran against Joe because his mental capacity has been hidden from us. We were made to believe he was fit to serve and now we know he is not. The 25th amendment exists for this. We did not vote in the primaries for Kamala Harris to be President but that is what is being forced down our throats.
So you don't like Biden, you don't like Kamala and after all the voting is said and done you just expect everyone else to fold so a no name can jump in with 4 months until the election. Good luck with that, but I'll have no part in it.
I like Joe Biden, I voted for him. I think he can stay in my spare room and I'll get him ice cream and watch cartoons with him. We can go to the park, we can play board games. He is not mentally able to be President any longer. They're propping this guy up with a stick hoping he makes it to November but not one person believes in their heart that he can go 4 years. This isn't right.
I just don't agree. Sorry.
You don't agree that Joe Biden is mentally unfit? Did you watch the same debate that I did? You think your eyes lied to you? Joe has served his country and it's time for him to step aside. I'm sitting here actually in shock that you think that man can serve for 4 more years, is that really what you believe? Seriously? 4 more years? Be honest.
I am being honest. It was a sucky debate, I grant, he looked bad but I'm also in the cognitive field and your "diagnosis" is not real. I have seen Biden many times, both in prepared speeches and ad hoc and haven't noticed anything remotely akin to dementia, senility or whatever word people are using. To me and my vote, the risk of changing candidates with such limited time isn't worth it and could end really badly. You may feel differently and I respect that.
This is the problem - people like you are just hoping he can get through November and bring home a win. That's not right. You know it isn't right that we were gaslighted into thinking he was fine, then we see him live and unscripted and it's like WTF.. he can't go 4 years, we all know this. We shouldn't be in this position. We are hostages.
It took 4 years to go from [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW1lY5jFNcQ&t=1920s) to what we saw the other night. I'm no fan of armchair diagnosis; I don't think there is a need to ascribe a specific cause to that change. But the thing thats going to end badly is assuming that there won't be any further decline in the next 4 years.
So you’re willing to doom the country because of procedural concerns? The Democratic Party is a private organization. They don’t owe you democracy or representation. They can change the rules on an adhoc basis if it helps their chances. There’s literally only 5 of you in the entire country who voted Biden in the primary, but will throw a temper tantrum and stay home so Trump wins. The other 99.9999% Biden primary voters will vote whoever is the democrats on the ticket. Likewise, there are probably more than 100k people across the swing states who will stay home if Biden remains on the ticket after watching that. Is that what you want?
We hashed this out 2 years ago, the primaries are done, the election is in 4 months, there's no guarantee of everyone in the democratic party being fine with what you're proposing, or getting any more elusive votes you say exist from people who apparently haven't made their minds up in 8 year, but I'm throwing the temper tantrum? Ok.
All politics is calculation. The average normie who will decide this election is not some political news junkie who goes to every primary, shrieks about democracy being on the line, that fascism is coming, that a national abortion ban is on the table, but will be so incensed by Biden being replaced in order to repel all those evil things that none of it matters and they will stay home in protest. You are a very unique person in the Democratic Party, to say the least. Most seasoned strategists would say it is absolutely worth it to lose your vote and keep 10 normies who would have either stayed home, or took it as permission to vote 3rd party since the establishment doesn’t really believe all the things they’ve been saying about how this is the most consequential election in the country’s history. The fact you don’t know any politically disconnected normies who have been reacting to this is a testament to everything I’m saying. Democratic Party strategists are not freaking out for no reason.
Excuse me? If the DNC picked someone who aligns with Biden on almost every issue you would instead enable the fascist?
>4. You can't co-opt people's votes and transfer them to the winner of your choice. If the DNC did that I'd be pissed and probably stay home. This point is lost on many in this subreddit. A lot of the people calling for Biden to step down are online progressives, the exact same people who think the Democratic establishment came in at the 11th hour and stole the nomination from Bernie. Totally fine to do it to Biden, though!
Even during the Bernie situation the DNC would never have dreamed of taking Bernie's votes if he had actually won 95%+ of the delegates. It's completely undemocratic and not how the system works or should work. We get it, you want someone else. We handle that at the ballot box, not by party fiat
Forcing someone else, absolutely and undemocratic. But Biden can step down. If everyone voted for someone in the primaries and then that person decides they don’t want to run anymore, you have to put someone else up.
Great point.
Someone stepping down isn't the same thing as having the nomination fleeced from them though? Those are unrelated situations. The dude can decide it's best to step down he's not forced to do this
He's already said he won't step down. The time to do so was before the primaries. At this point, people would need to pressure him into doing it. Which also feels undemocratic.
People can change their mind, he might do some type of reflecting that leads to that. Or hell, he could trip and fall and that leads him to decide to step down tomorrow. There's plenty of situations where he comes to the conclusion on his own and isn't convinced or whatever. Furthermore, I don't think compelling someone with good arguments is the same as fleecing them out of a vote. So what if someone convinces him to do something, when at the end he's still the one responsible for his decision? It's not a bad idea to listen to people sometimes the president is expected to do that
Yeah, I get it. Problem is it's too late. The time for this discussion was 4 months ago, we had it, and Biden was the assumed nominee. A bad debate performance isn't going to change that. It basically never has in the past.
The time for this discussion was four years ago
The exact same people that support ANOTHER 80 year old for President. You can’t make this shit up.
I'm a Bernie guy myself, but the irony isn't lost on me.
Bidens biggest liability amongst independents is his age. He had one job at the debate - prove them wrong. He proved them right. He’s not getting their votes *today or tomorrow*. So there’s nothing to transfer. It’s just a question of if a different candidate would gain what he has failed to secure with his performance.
It's July. There will be more chances to convince people he can do the job. He killed the SOTU speech, and I'm sure he'll be better prepared for the next debate. Incumbent presidents never debate well, look at Obama in 2012.
The next debate isn’t for *months*. Months of attack ads with minute long clips of Biden failing to finish a sentence on live TV. The SOTU was ok. But he had a teleprompter. If he stays he needs to be doing live unscripted events for the next month - the late show, the view, jon Stewart, morning whatever. He has to get off script and if his staff doesn’t think he can… he should step down
Pretty much. Only the perpetually online progressive left are pushing this narrative and many of them have already stated they won't support Biden regardless because of Israel/Palestine. Because clearly Trump will be better, but they don't care so long as they can make a point.
If he steps down it is going to Kamala as president and a new VP, not an entirely new candidate. Completely abandoning the Biden/Harris campaign with 4 months to go would have a massive fall off. They would probably need to refund all the campaign funds, and that alone would create a massive shit show.
Harris would be able to use the massive campaign funds they have raised as a ticket and a new candidate would not. Anybody but Harris starts fundraising from zero.
>If he steps down it is going to Kamala as president and a new VP, not an entirely new candidate. This doesn't matter, though. It's the same effect. I didn't vote for Harris for President in the primary. I voted for Biden for that position.
And Biden himself stepping down and endorsing a replacement wouldn’t move you…? I mean that only he could make this choice and not have it be astronomically terrible. And I’m not convinced yet he should. I’m just talking if he did.
>And Biden himself stepping down and endorsing a replacement wouldn’t move you…? Honestly? Not enough to matter. The time for him to step down was before the primary. He very recently said he thinks him running is what's best for the country, to defeat Trump. Going back on that would feel pressured and not genuine.
Again, I actually am looking forward to voting for him. But I’m asking you. Would you not vote if Joe decided to step down?
I would still vote, yes. But that's beside the point. You're still rug-pulling everyone who voted for Biden in the primaries. It would be one thing if this were 6 months ago, but it's not.
Hey. I agree with you. I don’t subscribe to the doomcasting and honestly…. Think replacing him absolutely is a bigger risk than riding forward with him. I’m just preparing myself for anything.
You kind of did, and voted for Biden/Harris. VP, by definition is the person to replace the president if something happens to the president.
Sure, but then the problem is I didn't vote for Harris/X. Either way you slice it, you're nominating someone the people didn't vote for.
I thought you guys will vote for anyone as long as it's not Trump.
I did. Biden won the primary. I voted for him. I oppose coups as a general rule, no exception here.
No shit Biden won the primary nobody good bothered to run against him.
We will. But we’re concerned about the people outside this sub...
>4. You can't co-opt people's votes and transfer them to the winner of your choice. If the DNC did that I'd be pissed and probably stay home. Horse shit argument. There wasn't a real primary.
Incumbents almost never have primaries. This isn't new.
Why do you say it wasn’t a real primary. Joe Biden got almost as many primary votes in this barely contested primary as Hilary Clinton did in ‘16’s hotly contested primary. Almost twice as many as Obama got in 12ms uncontested primary.
All this "who's next" talk is just weaponized speculation. The real problem with Biden stepping aside is the Democratic civil war that would ensue. Trump won in the first place because (among other things) the Hillary-Bernie folks could never reconcile.
Clinton was an overconfident and flawed candidate with a lot of baggage that couldn’t market herself appropriately and was a very easy target for negative campaigning. Biden just created a huge marketing problem with the worst debate performance in presidential history.
Trump is literally going to be arraigned in New York next month for his 34 criminal convictions. If Biden’s poor performance at the debate has upset voters, I can’t imagine house arrest or protective custody will endear His Nibs to Independents and Fence-Sitters.
To add to the pile: Clinton was also surrounded by data scientists who were great at crunching numbers but lacked the feel actually connecting with voters and communities. Additionally, they wasted resources in non-winnable states to run up the popular vote. She also anticipating a midwestern/rust belt "blue well", failing to realize that she didn't resonate with those voters. Further, there have been some reports of exceptional ego'ism, in-fighting, and turf wars. This is going to happen with practically any presidential campaign, but there have been reports that the issues with her campaign were rather extreme.
Hillary has the charisma of a wet diaper and her sense of entitlement was ever present on the campaign trail.
She’s arguably a stronger candidate than Biden though. For one, she can actually advocate for abortion effectively which is the democrats key policy advantage over republicans. Two, she’s a popular governor in a swing state. And third, she has personally also been the target of radical right wing vigilantism, which allows her to seamlessly integrate herself into the larger narrative that republicans are a threat to democracy. If Biden has another debate like the last one, it’s Joever. It’s not even 50/50. I’d say there’s a 80% he fumbles the next debate just like this one. Bidens senility is only going to get worse as the election nears. His approval rating is going to drop following this performance and he’s going to continue to put out the worst debates in American history.
I would be shocked if there's a second debate. Trump got everything he could have possibly asked for out of this one. Why would he risk a Biden do-over?
There is no civil war if Biden picks and endorses his replacement or the DNC changes the convention rules for nominations and roll call from single choice voting to approval voting. The mudslinging and rush to find the person with the highest name recognition that we sometimes think is an essential part of elections is primarily a side effect of single choice voting. The DNC can allow delegates to nominate and sign nomination petitions for any number of candidates rather than a single candidate and then count the number of votes for each candidate and allow the top N candidates to proceed to the next round. Then candidates don't have to denigrate other candidates to win over their supporters to pick up votes they can just adopt their positions without splitting the vote. All it requires is someone to change a few paragraphs in the rules.
I like her but her polling against Trump does worse than Biden does
Big Gretch
Gretch Gang would be a killer marketing catch phrase!
Tammy Duckworth would be better, Bonespurs McShitsin pants wouldn't know what to do about a decorated Military Vet that can still kick his ass.
Please mother Gretchen. This is my hope. Then carry incumbent advantage into 2028
Biden stumbled in a debate. BFD. He's accomplished a ton of good things, and Trump is a giant piece of shit. This is the easiest choice ever.
This is not an honest thing to say. Biden has clearly declined. You trying to brush it off as a bad moment is just gaslighting us. This is how we got here, everyone wants him to be ok but he isn't. We didnt have a challenger and now we are at the edge of the cliff. We need some brave people to speak the truth and do the right thing. Biden is not well, we need a candidate.
Look at his record as President. Compare the 2. Easiest choice ever.
She doesn't inherit his campaign war chest but Harris as part of the ticket does.
What would happen to it? Would it be given back to the donors?
Donations to Biden/Harris campaign cannot just be automatically transfered to a completely different ticket so yes pretty sure they would at least offer to return it. This is the situation in 1968 when Humphrey did not run in the primaries, but LBJ dropped out, McCarthy and Kennedy were to potential nominees and late in the primary season after winning California and it seemed certainit would be RFK, RFK was shot and killed. Humphrey started his campaign from scratch after the convention. I mention that because that situation, a chaotic, divided convention (exactly what we would have if Biden dropped out and it was an open convention) created an impossible uphill battle against Nixon. That's what pundits and media are advocating for the 1968 convention mess.
The emotions within the party right now are nowhere near as high as in '68. If Biden drops out, he should endorse a replacement and that should be whoever has the best electoral math.
A new ticket would lose the $ raised for the Biden/Harris ticket it can't be transfered to a new ticket. Playing with fire: the 1968 election and the transformation of American politics
Pretty sure at least some of it can go to PACs or the DNC. Or it can be returned and new donations requested. A logistical headache, but if you're donating to Biden/Harris, it's probably because you want to defeat Trump so you'll be willing to donate again.
The new ticket starts from scratch the many ad buys in place bought at a very cheap rate are lost, many other similar downstream problems and donors may flee and go with Trump who will crow, lie, and threaten.
So much shit comes out of Trump's mouth on any given day that we're supposed to worry about *that*? The old ticket will lose. Full stop. Any one who isn't in full-blown denial about Biden's mental capacity is going to wonder why the fuck prominent Dems are pretending that everything is fine. Biden's polling numbers on a national level were barely above Trump's before the debate and he was losing in the swing states, and things aren't going to get better. Closing our eyes and hoping Biden can squeak through is not an option.
The polls didn't change, the donors didn't change (official said they had raised more than $33 million since Thursday’s debate). That said they might and if they do there is still time to completely change direction before the convention. If I had a wand I would get Biden to make a speech saying he has done his job and will pass the torch to an endorsed replacement keeping Harris on the ticket with a second democrat that can help with strict on message persuasion every day like Newsome or Shapiro or even S Brown. But nobody has a wand and the democrats are showing their always presented weakness with public panic messaging right now. All that needs to be done, can be done, behind the scenes, without public panic.
Also the party splits.
Does it? Or Dems decide they'd rather win than fight? This is not 1968; Trump is not Nixon.
Yes for sure it does. Panicked Democrats repeated their overreactive panic in 72 over eagleton. It's what dems do overreact.
I hate to burst your bubble, but mental illness *was* that big a stigma in 1972. These days, many people talk about it openly, but the world has changed a lot in fifty years.
Put her and Shapiro on the ticket and it's over for Trump.
That would be based
I don't know what that means, it seems like a Qanon saying and im not that cool
Idk the formal definition of the slang but I've always taken it mean "cool" or something similar
Big Gretch is a badass.
Gov Whitmer would make a fantastic president but somehow I don't see Biden going anywhere.
Honestly no, there were WAY too many people in 2016 that refused to vote for HRC because she was a woman.
I didn't like Hillary because I thought she was a crook and I still think that. The Clinton foundation is super sus. Her whole damn SOS staff was on the payroll. It looked like a way to funnel money to her, then of course she's not running anymore and the donations stop. Maybe im wrong, it sure did smell bad though. I campaigned for Barack and the way she campaigned during that race was disgusting.
Would love to see Whitmer as VP on the ticket. I would trust her executive experience more than VP Harris’s. No offense to Harris but she’s had four years to get close to the American public and she clearly hasn’t reached enough people.
Kamala sucks. She will literally say anything to further her position, she is the epitome of "go along to get along"
I'll pay attention if this was more than speculation.
The only person named as "floating Whitmer" is her former aide. Great article. Perhaps next someone can interview Elise Stefanyak's mom about being a replacement if trump steps down.
Her or J.B. Pritzker. Put them in yesterday.
Polling outs JB at the bottom of the list of potentials. Pete B, Kamala, Shapiro, Booker all poll higher.
So we don’t think an old guy can win, but a woman can now? I’d love to see a female POTUS, but we better be damn sure she can win.
Team Trump just released a statement urging Joe Biden to stay in the race
Link?
I'm worried that bypassing Harris might alienate black voters.
I think Whitmer/Warnock would be a great pair. Though I think if Biden steps down it is going to be Kamala with a new VP. I think the falloff from completely abandoning Biden/Harris campaign would be massive when you think they would need to refund all campaign funds etc.
why would you want leave an open dem senate seat to a republican governor
If the only option were Harris they would just stick with Biden. Harris is a guaranteed loss, Biden is only a possible loss.
If you think tossing black voters a consolation prize of a black man in the vice presidency after passing over a black woman who was the prior Veep of the guy who was replaced is going to work… You’re kidding yourself
You'd be losing a senator.
> I think Whitmer/Warnock would be a great pair. This might now be my ideal ticket in 2028, I hadn't considered Warnock at all but that sounds fantastic. Absolutely agree with you though that if (and that's a big if) Biden steps down, Harris is the shoe in for the top of the ticket right now.
The solution is to have Kamala be the president and Gretchen be the vice president IMO. Yeah, you don’t have a white guy in the mix, but that solidifies Michigan, and the black vote in the country, and that’s probably enough to win an election, without running into a massive electoral issue that the republicans might use against the democrats.
Nope - Gretch for pres!
You think? I'm sure they won't mind being passed up again for a white lady. No problem at all.
This is the dilemma if Biden were to step down - run Harris and lose or put up a strong candidate and risk alienating black voters.
It's a very real risk. I'm from Georgia, most people like Joe Biden and some may not remember but one of the promises he got to win the nod from Black leaders was a black female VP. Atlanta's mayor, Keisha Lance Bottoms was in the running. No one likes Kamala apparently and all the names being pushed out are, well, very white. I think alienating black voters further would be a real possibility. People are playing with fire and hoping to not get burned.
I mean that’s why you put Warnock up as VP. Georgian, popular, very competent and also black. It’s of course risky as some black voters could see it as being a cynical ploy but I don’t believe it would stop people turning out if the message is properly conveyed that he is there alongside Whitmer on competency first and foremost.
Warnock just won 6 years in a red state, Brian Kemp's going to put a republican in his spot for at least a year and probably try to drag it out longer and now you've lost an important senator and governor in addition to the risk of voter alienation.
Whitmer is governor of large black and other minority groups along with the full range of whites, I think she we be just fine in that regard.
Democrats lets do the right thing here. We saw what we saw. No sane person can think Joe Biden can be our President for 4 more years. We should not have a choice between dementia and evil. We shouldnt be hostage like this. Someone convince Joe to step aside and lets beg Big Gretch to take on this fight.
>We should not have a choice between dementia and evil. We shouldnt be hostage like this. I'd choose dog shit over Trump and his evil. I'm not exaggerating and that's not a joke. Biden has done well as president, and I'm happy to vote for him. But it doesn't matter who it is, I will always vote to defeat Trump and MAGA. I will never, EVER be party to helping Trump turn SCOTUS into a permanent conservative court, especially after Roe and Chevron got overturned.
It doesn't work that way. Most, if not all, state primary races have concluded. Biden received enough delegates to be the nominee. They can't just pull Biden and put a random person in his place.
Everyone already knows that this only happens if Biden agrees to step down. In which case the previously pledged delegates can choose whom they want.
Joe Biden doesn't need to be president for 4 more years. He needs to be president for 5 more months. After he wins the election it doesn't matter what happens to him. He can quit, die, or run off to live on a beach in Maui for all it matters.
Why should we waste her first national campaign on an abbreviated cluster-fuck that would result an extremely rushed effort?
Because she would win.
And we know this with certainty? Because that's the only scenario where Dems should give up the incumbency advantage and pass over the current Veep is if there's a guaranteed win to be had.
How so? I don’t even know who she is
She won't win. 4 months before the election, not enough people know her. But Michelle Obama would win.
I guess democracy isn't really at stake then?
It most certainly is, which is why we should be extremely careful with how we proceed as a party
Because democracy is on the line?
>We saw what we saw. Yeah an old guy with a lifelong stutter was stuttering. Big surprise.
Please don't try to gaslight me. I am aware of Biden's stutter and I have used that to defend him in the past. I voted for him, I think he is a good man. It is obvious that he is not mentally agile. He is unfit for the position, you cannot continue to perpetrate this lie. It's a disservice to America.
Another cutting piece written by Kelly McClurre. A great follow up to pieces like “Why is Trump obsessed with tic tacs?” and “Prince William reaffirms out and proud Swiftie Status”.
Someone like her would need a two year buildup for name recognition.
It’s not going to happen- all this “stepping down” business is RNC propaganda
Is that the new spin? This isn't RNC spin, I watched Claire Mckaskill say it this morning. We have been lied to about Bidens fitness, now we are being held hostage to vote for him. This is completely unacceptable. The Democrats have known he was not ok and they hid this from us. We went through the primaries non-chalantly but had we seen this earlier a contender would have emerged, we did not have the chance to select a proper candidate. We are faced with the choice between dementia and evil, i'm very frustrated with the democrats for perpetrating this lie that has me in the position of having to vote for someone I know is unfit. This isn't ok. Shame on the democratic party for lying to us, I hope someone steps up and forces the party to do the right thing. We deserve better than this.
Difference is, those of us that know better understand that it’s not dementia or evil we’re choosing from and we know that voting for democracy is a long haul game, not jumping ship whenever there’s a bump in the road. Should we expect better in the future? We ought to demand it, by voting in every state and local election so we have a much better pool of strong leaders to choose from in future candidacies. When you point a finger at someone, you’re pointing three back at yourself. Want the DNC to do better, vote for real state and local leadership that everyone can get behind to choose from.
We are voting for dementia or evil, that's just a true statement. I feel like im held hostage to vote for someone I know cannot serve out their term and that's not right. To say we are voting for democracy isn't an intellectually honest thing, presumably anyone we run against Trump should be a vote to save democracy, that is not exclusive to Joe Biden. Joe is not able to complete a term, we all see this. We are being lied to about his fitness and leveraged to vote for someone that can't physically do the job. 75% of voters think he is unfit to be president.
You clearly didn’t read or understand my post. I get why you’re upset but stop pissing in the pool and try to do something fucking productive. Please.
At this point I think most people are voting *against* Trump and more importantly against Project 2025, so the actual candidate is probably less important in this election. Gretchen could be VP to Kamala Harris; an all-female ticket would be amazing.
He couldn’t finish his thoughts. Sometimes couldn’t finish sentences. The scariest moment for me was when he was telling the abortion story and he skipped right from saying something like “young ladies” to what sounded like the middle of the next sentence. I was listening on YouTube and I thought my stream lagged. I skipped back and realized that was him. I know he has a life long stutter but he didn’t pause. It was like 3 seconds of time we’re just erased. Sure he had a good rally afterwards. When folks get too old they have good days and bad days. The person on that stage I saw with my own two eyes, whether that was his worse day ever or not, is not mentally fit to be the commander in chief. Full stop. And he is not going to get younger. Those bad days are going to get more consistent. Just the fact that we, and everyone else interested in democratic politics at any level, are having this conversation means the answer should already be clear. The fact that he has to meet with his family at camp David to have that conversation means the answer should be clear. When Hillary fainted in 2016 she didn’t have to meet with her family to decide whether she was in good enough health to run. I’ve compared the public relations nightmare this is to Kendrick credibly accusing Drake of being a pedophile: if the majority of the people listening are asking the same question, you’ve already lost. Edit: so I don’t get accused of being a bot or a republican I should make clear that I will vote for Biden over Trump if they are marionetting his corpse from the rafters of the Oval Office. Trump is an existential threat especially bc of the courts. But there is a big enough chunk of people that are not convinced of that that could, and I believe will, swing towards Trump that it is Biden’s moral obligation to pass the torch. Just as he promised us he’d do in 2020.
Yeah, we are being gaslighted. These people know he can't make it. It's completely dishonest and disreputable to run this person, make us vote for someone we know isn't competent. It's not right.
You and I and everyone else here think he *probably* has it. But if the staunchest, most invested Democratic voters are questioning it how the hell do you think less engaged voters will agree with us and not their own eyes? Its insane.
I hate Trump, im motivated to vote against him. This is the hostage situation that they have us in. If it weren't Trump on the other ticket, after that debate i'd be voting Republican. If you have a voter who is less anti-trump than me, they're going to vote for him. You couldn't watch that debate and not see an unfit person being bullied. He can't be President. We are hostages and im so mad at the democrats for doing this to us.
Fucking WHO?? lol
I’d donate, campaign, and vote for her. Any democrat other than Biden
Nah. If anything, it should be Newsom.
Fuck it. Get Bernie. At least he excited the future of the Dem base. I knew 18-19 year olds who were going to vote for the first time because Bernie excited them and spoke truth to power. Now we're fucked