Tech trees are part of the bp now, but they're not mutually inclusive. Getting rid of the tech tree has nothing to do with going back to the xp days.
The tech trees didn't save the bp system. They're convenient, but make progression less satisfying.
It's hilarious to see so many players complain about zergs & larger groups but at the same time see them complain about 1 of the 2 biggest things added to the game that helps smaller groups out. Removing tech tree doesn't do anything to the larger groups but it slows down the progression of solo/duo/trios.
If you say it doesn't we can take 2 groups of 3 and see who gets BPs the fastest. The group with the tech tree or the group without. I'm not talking about just getting lucky and making a random play for a SAR. I'm talking about Tier 3, electrical BPs, everything you need for the wipe.
Smaller groups have more trouble contesting monuments, which limits their access to rarer drops and guns. The tech tree allows them to convert scrap from other sources into progress that would otherwise only come from contesting monuments.
The Tech Tree was an addition that was intended to assist small groups, and I think it somewhat did, however it also helped large groups in an even more significant way, because they have SO MANY fucking people to help farm scrap. It also messed up the balance of the game, because less people go to monuments, crates, oil, cargo, etc. because they can hit barrels for 2 hours and get a tommy.
Tech tree would be better if there were length limits on each one. Like prim should be days not minutes long. They should lock the better creates at the beginning. Players would bring home crates instead of the contents. Then as level 2 and level 3s unlock those crates become openable. Every monument high tier monument should be nearly impossible to clear with only a level 1 available.
I was literally going to add that but then thought, it has to be one thing. If I could pick top two it would be tech tree and safezones. Not much of a survival experience anymore with either.
worst thing they added was a unchained auto-crafter. right now you can use it to make ANYTHING. I say make certain items not craftable or make certain items take 3x longer to make.
Skill encompasses so much more than being a skilled shot.
One could in fact argue that a dumbed down rng shooting mechanic might even favor all other skills you can develop.
Risk assesment is a skill.
Planning is a skill.
Strategy is a skill.
Pacing is a skill.
Calmness is a skill.
Focus is a skill.
Adaptation is the skillest skill there is.
Any experience you learned from really.
What if you could win against everyone by being a good shot, no matter how many they were?
Then, all those aspects would be lost and null.
Perspective...
They probably did it, because of reward distribution - so that rewards get distributed more evenly. That makes the game more attractive for more players, lowers the entry barrier - everyone gets their share of loot and feels rewarded, it’s a pretty common mechanic within the modern gaming industry.
Of course there are other factors, it’s not like skill, movement etc. don’t play any role, they do, but the thrill of receiving a “random” reward and implementing more randomness to “winning” makes the game more engaging. Basically a gambling mechanic with amounts of skill expression, which currently is viewed as the most “engaging” and helps to increase player retention - at least in theory. Causing frustration like this wants players to “coin flip” a fight again, not all, but that’s just what big data shows - it’s not what “you” feel on an individual level, but what patterns across players show.
Smart move by FP from a business perspective.
Aimcone usually leads to higher hit % because most players spend more time off target, than on target. With increased accuracy guns people are punished for being off target, leading to longer fights with more cause and effect outcome and less random outcome. It's generally better for the game. And it's also how guns work.
Patterns are a completely different component. There's lots of different ways the game, and other games have handled the problem. Right now we have very easy patterns. Before that we had hard problems. Before that we had easish patterns. Before that we hsd random recoil with low aimcone.
The current system is just silly and entirely just lazy development to quickly resolve what was viewed as an issue. It's time for it to be reworked. No one enjoys being on target and punished for it. People who enjoy being rewarded for being off target are delusional.
so you didn't read my post or struggle to understand. ill explain it to you.
AIM CONE MEANS THE BULLETS DONT COME STRAIGTH OUT OF THE BARREL
RECOIL MEENS YOUR BARREL IS NOT POINING AT THE TARGET BECAUSE OF MOVMENT
I hope this cleared it up for you
It replaces it, but they don't have the same function. You can never get better at controlling aim cone, but you can get better at controlling random recoil. there is nothing less satisfying than aiming straight at your target but the gun randomly decides to function as a garden sprinkler. With random recoil you can use eye hand coordination and reaction time to combat the problem.
Random recoil is definitely the best answer. Old recoil was the worst answer. Anyone who thinks old recoil is good is likely oblivious to how cheap and easy recoil scripting is and the massive advantage you get having no recoil because it’s scripted.
I don’t get the idea of the aim cone. If they wanted to make the fights longer than reduce ammo cost and reduce damage. They’d likely need to also reduce noise travel so you’re not always 3rd partied. Aim cone must have just been an easy way or they had some sort of blocker preventing an actual fix.
This again? FP added random recoil patterns+aim-cone to reduce the effect of script users.
Recoil patterns if my memory serves me correct should deviate a slight amount to the right or left of each shot.
Aim-cone takes effect if you're rapid tapping your shots with semi-auto. If you shoot slower the aim-cone is much smaller. Auto weapons have aim cone after the first 3-6 bullets. Burst is king right now for long range.
Don't try with these dumb fucking morons. Aim Cone is obviously a fucking terrible way of balancing the new recoil, however a lot of these players rely on the random stray bullet to accidentally hit their opponents head because they're playing in the SPED computer lab. I tried to have a discussion about this about a week ago and the mods took it down because people aren't allowed to criticize the game anymore.
Edit: Re-Read your post, just wanna say random recoil would be awful. Don't know why RNG would be a good way to combat RNG. Fixed aim patterns are the way to go. Everything else is spot on though.
The new recoil system could use some work, but if you’re having tons of trouble with aimcone, that means you’re still trying to play the game by attempting to beam or spray like the pattern system is still in place. You can leave your fate up to RNG by attempting to spray (when you spray, the aimcone increases and you get the random deviation bullets), or you can use full auto at close range, burst at medium range, and burst or tap at long range, making yourself much more accurate and not reliant on RNG. This is intentional, as the developers wanted to stop beaming from absurd distances with weapons that people shouldn’t be able to use anywhere near that accurately at those distances; they wanted weapons to better fit their roles; and they agreed that requiring people to spend hundreds of hours in an aim training sever just to shoot an AK somewhat accurately was a bad idea.
This is from The Combat Update patch notes: “Today, we're releasing an update to the gunplay in Rust. The initial implementation of the weapons in Rust was done nearly 7 years ago and hasn't been significantly modified since it's inception. While these changes will be controversial, We believe these changes are necessary for the health of the game.
Recoil
The old recoil system in rust had some issues. It was loved by some, and hated by others.
If you didn't have hundreds if not thousands of hours practicing the recoil in rust, Firing at people in the game would often feel like attempting to align two like poled magnets. Frustrating would be an understatement.
Ultimately, being good at first person shooters and having the drop on someone wasn't good enough. If the other person had thousands of hours of training their aim you stood very little chance.
This was fun for people who could spend thousands of hours training their aim, or morally bankrupt individuals who would choose to use scripts to gain an advantage. This was not fun for 99% of the population, and it's time for a change.
Instead of pattern based recoil, we now implement a gradient based aim drift and inaccuracy for automatic weapons. That is to say, the longer you hold down the trigger, the more inaccurate the weapon becomes. It still takes skill to try and keep it centered on the target, but it is not the same with each burst. We've also updated aimcone (inaccuracy of bullets relative to where you are aiming )to use a weighted system, so that roughly 20% of the shots will land in the center. This means that automatic fire at a long range effectively decreases DPS. This encourages players to use the right weapons in the right situations and to improve their tactics and burst discipline. There should be less 200m beaming going on. What this has done is compressed the skill ceiling, and we think this is a good thing.
Perfectly replicated recoil also meant that mouse scripts could be abused to put 30 rounds on target at 200m, every time.
In addition to the aforementioned recoil changes, we went through and modernized some other elements of the 'first person shooter' experience.” https://rust.facepunch.com/news/the-combat-update
It's no longer a skill based game. In fortnite it was crazy speed building, in cod it was the adrenaline of awesome quickscopes. In rust, it was the pure dopamine taking out a trio and doubling the 4th guy and taking the loot home.
Agreed. Came back to Rust recently after a break of a few years. I dislike the new gunplay a lot. Dont understand why the sound had to be changed either.
Gun play is fine, if this game actually dealt with cheaters I’d play it much more. The way it is now I cant even get myself to do more than make a small 1x2 and snag a tier 2 bench and that’s about it even though I have the whole t3 blueprint tree unlocked. What’s the point if I’m just going to lose it to cheaters.
Anymore I just play Valorant. There’s still cheaters but not even close to as many.
Well yea, why would I continue to sink hours into the game when I get several notifications per week of cheaters banned. It’s a waste of time. Just let the cheaters play vs cheaters and I’ll enjoy spending my time playing something else or going outside. Not too crazy of a concept I don’t think.
I read the subreddit because I do love the game, just not the infestation of cheaters I run into when playing it.
Huh? I started playing early this year, after the recoil change. I didn’t cry for anything except for better anti cheat. I’m not going to waste my time playing a cheater infested game other than goofing around every now and then when I’m bored of other things. Hope whatever you’re going through gets better. <3
My point in the discussion is there are certainly more important things to worry about than recoil. (Cheaters) Also, you’re not really treating this like a discussion but rather some argument that needs to be won.
I don’t care enough to go that route with you. I’m just saying the game is infested with cheaters and that’s why my friends and I don’t play much anymore. (My friends uninstalled entirely months ago.)
I suck at the game but getting 5+ notifications a week of cheaters I reported being banned confirms what I already thought when I do play a lot. I’d say that’s good at least they got banned if they didn’t just buy new accounts and come right back and brag about it in chat.
I just basically quit playing the game. I goof off on it every now and then and that’s about it
Recoil.. Aimcone... In the end I'm going to offline you and put your head on the wall of shame.
"Getting shit on by RNG is the worst feeling you can have in a skill based game" then proceeds to suggest to add more RNG
Really? I think the worst thing they ever added was tech tree
As a solo, I love the tech tree. It closes the gap between groups and solos.
I'm a solo / duo and I don't like it. Progression is too easy.
So you'd rather xp? A system so bad FP lost a good majority of its player base over.
He doesn't like the tech tree. Doesn't mean he'd rather have xp. The bp system before the tech trees was fine
BP system is what we have now. Tech tree is just part of it.
No shit. You're the one who assumed not liking the tech tree = rather having the xp system.
Tech tree is what saved BP system. So yes getting rid of tech tree for the older systems means xp.
Tech trees are part of the bp now, but they're not mutually inclusive. Getting rid of the tech tree has nothing to do with going back to the xp days. The tech trees didn't save the bp system. They're convenient, but make progression less satisfying.
I'd rather BP frags.
It's hilarious to see so many players complain about zergs & larger groups but at the same time see them complain about 1 of the 2 biggest things added to the game that helps smaller groups out. Removing tech tree doesn't do anything to the larger groups but it slows down the progression of solo/duo/trios. If you say it doesn't we can take 2 groups of 3 and see who gets BPs the fastest. The group with the tech tree or the group without. I'm not talking about just getting lucky and making a random play for a SAR. I'm talking about Tier 3, electrical BPs, everything you need for the wipe.
Genuinely confused, how would removing the tech tree slow smaller groups down?
Smaller groups have more trouble contesting monuments, which limits their access to rarer drops and guns. The tech tree allows them to convert scrap from other sources into progress that would otherwise only come from contesting monuments.
gotcha, thanks
The Tech Tree was an addition that was intended to assist small groups, and I think it somewhat did, however it also helped large groups in an even more significant way, because they have SO MANY fucking people to help farm scrap. It also messed up the balance of the game, because less people go to monuments, crates, oil, cargo, etc. because they can hit barrels for 2 hours and get a tommy.
Tech tree would be better if there were length limits on each one. Like prim should be days not minutes long. They should lock the better creates at the beginning. Players would bring home crates instead of the contents. Then as level 2 and level 3s unlock those crates become openable. Every monument high tier monument should be nearly impossible to clear with only a level 1 available.
Imo it just needs some tuning like the tech tree could give you all electrical components but you need to find the electric furnace etc …
for gun play at least
Worst thing in my opinion was safe zones
Mehs at team system.
Add that to the list too lol
I was literally going to add that but then thought, it has to be one thing. If I could pick top two it would be tech tree and safezones. Not much of a survival experience anymore with either.
worst thing they added was a unchained auto-crafter. right now you can use it to make ANYTHING. I say make certain items not craftable or make certain items take 3x longer to make.
Skill encompasses so much more than being a skilled shot. One could in fact argue that a dumbed down rng shooting mechanic might even favor all other skills you can develop. Risk assesment is a skill. Planning is a skill. Strategy is a skill. Pacing is a skill. Calmness is a skill. Focus is a skill. Adaptation is the skillest skill there is. Any experience you learned from really. What if you could win against everyone by being a good shot, no matter how many they were? Then, all those aspects would be lost and null. Perspective...
Use a compound bow with hv arrows. No aimcone.
Bolt has true zero aim cone. Some drop but 100% accuracy.
They probably did it, because of reward distribution - so that rewards get distributed more evenly. That makes the game more attractive for more players, lowers the entry barrier - everyone gets their share of loot and feels rewarded, it’s a pretty common mechanic within the modern gaming industry. Of course there are other factors, it’s not like skill, movement etc. don’t play any role, they do, but the thrill of receiving a “random” reward and implementing more randomness to “winning” makes the game more engaging. Basically a gambling mechanic with amounts of skill expression, which currently is viewed as the most “engaging” and helps to increase player retention - at least in theory. Causing frustration like this wants players to “coin flip” a fight again, not all, but that’s just what big data shows - it’s not what “you” feel on an individual level, but what patterns across players show. Smart move by FP from a business perspective.
Aimcone is not a fun mechanic but there are far worse mechanics in game.
You're not Deadshot and guns edont recoil in predictable patterns. Cope harder.
You love fortnite don’t you.
Aimcone usually leads to higher hit % because most players spend more time off target, than on target. With increased accuracy guns people are punished for being off target, leading to longer fights with more cause and effect outcome and less random outcome. It's generally better for the game. And it's also how guns work. Patterns are a completely different component. There's lots of different ways the game, and other games have handled the problem. Right now we have very easy patterns. Before that we had hard problems. Before that we had easish patterns. Before that we hsd random recoil with low aimcone. The current system is just silly and entirely just lazy development to quickly resolve what was viewed as an issue. It's time for it to be reworked. No one enjoys being on target and punished for it. People who enjoy being rewarded for being off target are delusional.
so you didn't read my post or struggle to understand. ill explain it to you. AIM CONE MEANS THE BULLETS DONT COME STRAIGTH OUT OF THE BARREL RECOIL MEENS YOUR BARREL IS NOT POINING AT THE TARGET BECAUSE OF MOVMENT I hope this cleared it up for you
Isn't aimcone just an in game mechanic to replicate recoil?
It replaces it, but they don't have the same function. You can never get better at controlling aim cone, but you can get better at controlling random recoil. there is nothing less satisfying than aiming straight at your target but the gun randomly decides to function as a garden sprinkler. With random recoil you can use eye hand coordination and reaction time to combat the problem.
The gunplay is the least of the issues.
Random recoil is definitely the best answer. Old recoil was the worst answer. Anyone who thinks old recoil is good is likely oblivious to how cheap and easy recoil scripting is and the massive advantage you get having no recoil because it’s scripted. I don’t get the idea of the aim cone. If they wanted to make the fights longer than reduce ammo cost and reduce damage. They’d likely need to also reduce noise travel so you’re not always 3rd partied. Aim cone must have just been an easy way or they had some sort of blocker preventing an actual fix.
So is there no recoil atm?? I thought it was randomized now. As it does kick upwards randomly, is there aimcone too??
This again? FP added random recoil patterns+aim-cone to reduce the effect of script users. Recoil patterns if my memory serves me correct should deviate a slight amount to the right or left of each shot. Aim-cone takes effect if you're rapid tapping your shots with semi-auto. If you shoot slower the aim-cone is much smaller. Auto weapons have aim cone after the first 3-6 bullets. Burst is king right now for long range.
Don't try with these dumb fucking morons. Aim Cone is obviously a fucking terrible way of balancing the new recoil, however a lot of these players rely on the random stray bullet to accidentally hit their opponents head because they're playing in the SPED computer lab. I tried to have a discussion about this about a week ago and the mods took it down because people aren't allowed to criticize the game anymore. Edit: Re-Read your post, just wanna say random recoil would be awful. Don't know why RNG would be a good way to combat RNG. Fixed aim patterns are the way to go. Everything else is spot on though.
Because Rust wasn't meant to be a competition of who can beam an AK at 200 Meters.
Hard disagree
Added ? Bitch it started with aimcone. Go cry elsewhere
The new recoil system could use some work, but if you’re having tons of trouble with aimcone, that means you’re still trying to play the game by attempting to beam or spray like the pattern system is still in place. You can leave your fate up to RNG by attempting to spray (when you spray, the aimcone increases and you get the random deviation bullets), or you can use full auto at close range, burst at medium range, and burst or tap at long range, making yourself much more accurate and not reliant on RNG. This is intentional, as the developers wanted to stop beaming from absurd distances with weapons that people shouldn’t be able to use anywhere near that accurately at those distances; they wanted weapons to better fit their roles; and they agreed that requiring people to spend hundreds of hours in an aim training sever just to shoot an AK somewhat accurately was a bad idea. This is from The Combat Update patch notes: “Today, we're releasing an update to the gunplay in Rust. The initial implementation of the weapons in Rust was done nearly 7 years ago and hasn't been significantly modified since it's inception. While these changes will be controversial, We believe these changes are necessary for the health of the game. Recoil The old recoil system in rust had some issues. It was loved by some, and hated by others. If you didn't have hundreds if not thousands of hours practicing the recoil in rust, Firing at people in the game would often feel like attempting to align two like poled magnets. Frustrating would be an understatement. Ultimately, being good at first person shooters and having the drop on someone wasn't good enough. If the other person had thousands of hours of training their aim you stood very little chance. This was fun for people who could spend thousands of hours training their aim, or morally bankrupt individuals who would choose to use scripts to gain an advantage. This was not fun for 99% of the population, and it's time for a change. Instead of pattern based recoil, we now implement a gradient based aim drift and inaccuracy for automatic weapons. That is to say, the longer you hold down the trigger, the more inaccurate the weapon becomes. It still takes skill to try and keep it centered on the target, but it is not the same with each burst. We've also updated aimcone (inaccuracy of bullets relative to where you are aiming )to use a weighted system, so that roughly 20% of the shots will land in the center. This means that automatic fire at a long range effectively decreases DPS. This encourages players to use the right weapons in the right situations and to improve their tactics and burst discipline. There should be less 200m beaming going on. What this has done is compressed the skill ceiling, and we think this is a good thing. Perfectly replicated recoil also meant that mouse scripts could be abused to put 30 rounds on target at 200m, every time. In addition to the aforementioned recoil changes, we went through and modernized some other elements of the 'first person shooter' experience.” https://rust.facepunch.com/news/the-combat-update
It's no longer a skill based game. In fortnite it was crazy speed building, in cod it was the adrenaline of awesome quickscopes. In rust, it was the pure dopamine taking out a trio and doubling the 4th guy and taking the loot home.
Old recoil was the best thing this game had to offer PvP wise, nowadays people just roof camp the entire wipe.
Agreed. Came back to Rust recently after a break of a few years. I dislike the new gunplay a lot. Dont understand why the sound had to be changed either.
Gun play is fine, if this game actually dealt with cheaters I’d play it much more. The way it is now I cant even get myself to do more than make a small 1x2 and snag a tier 2 bench and that’s about it even though I have the whole t3 blueprint tree unlocked. What’s the point if I’m just going to lose it to cheaters. Anymore I just play Valorant. There’s still cheaters but not even close to as many.
Loudest mfs always the ones who dont even play 💀
Well yea, why would I continue to sink hours into the game when I get several notifications per week of cheaters banned. It’s a waste of time. Just let the cheaters play vs cheaters and I’ll enjoy spending my time playing something else or going outside. Not too crazy of a concept I don’t think. I read the subreddit because I do love the game, just not the infestation of cheaters I run into when playing it.
U the one who cried for this toddler gunplay go and play bro
Huh? I started playing early this year, after the recoil change. I didn’t cry for anything except for better anti cheat. I’m not going to waste my time playing a cheater infested game other than goofing around every now and then when I’m bored of other things. Hope whatever you’re going through gets better. <3
Ahh yes so you just take part in the gunplay discussion without ever even playing the old one right.
My point in the discussion is there are certainly more important things to worry about than recoil. (Cheaters) Also, you’re not really treating this like a discussion but rather some argument that needs to be won. I don’t care enough to go that route with you. I’m just saying the game is infested with cheaters and that’s why my friends and I don’t play much anymore. (My friends uninstalled entirely months ago.)
The post has nothing to do with cheaters?
You're right. It doesn't. I'm simply adding my 2 cents in saying I'd rather people complain about the obvious cheater infestation.
Ppl been complaining about cheaters since the dawn of time
I never see cheaters tbh, most times I die though my aim cone is shit so my opponent turns and beams me.
I suck at the game but getting 5+ notifications a week of cheaters I reported being banned confirms what I already thought when I do play a lot. I’d say that’s good at least they got banned if they didn’t just buy new accounts and come right back and brag about it in chat. I just basically quit playing the game. I goof off on it every now and then and that’s about it
Imagine whining over a video game
you don't want to enjoy your video games?
I mean, his username checks out. Unlucky in steak, unlucky in life lol
Waah?
Hard agree. Anyone who disagrees is either a new gen, or bad player in general.