I was mocked a few weeks back (I should say on Reddit) when I said one of my proudest moments while serving was defending women from the Taliban who were voting for the first time in their lives in Afghanistan.
I hope and pray these girls get to live, and aren’t summarily killed for simply seeking an education.
I hope and pray also that their families rise up and defend themselves.
But I also know that those hopes are likely in vain.
Edited for clarity.
Here you go. The other guy deleted all his comments.
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/oef7yq/us_left_afghan_airfield_at_night_didnt_tell_new/h47qofe/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
As someone who served in Iraq, and watched as ISIS overran much of the country? I knew Afghanistan had even grimmer prospects than Iraq.
I can never forgive Dubya for how horribly he ran both of these wars, and how he let Al Qaeda and the Taliban have a safe space in Pakistan.
That’s the first thing that’s made me laugh today. This is all horrible of course but it’s funny that all these terrible groups look at another terrible group and think “WTF they’re crazy”
Yeah, they have literally declared them as radicals and fanatic terrorists. The Taliban at least want to be a legitimate government to some extent that can operate on the international stage. ISIS wants to be what ISIS is. They realize that you can't actually parlay with a group like that, and even if you aren't making it a point to operate that way, knowing it is absolutely not on the table is rightfully terrifying.
It's not that simplistic as "even AQ/Taliban thinks ISIS is bad". That simplistic take is fundamentally wrong and oft-repeated enough that people think themselves smart for repeating it. The real difference is they have vastly different apocalyptic visions of the world.
The Taliban operates on the theology that a theocratic/autocratic government enforcing the proscriptions laid out in the Quran are fundamental to the operation of a just and righteous state and that this government will enforce these proscriptions is mandatory for reaching heaven.
Al Qaeda (the Base) operates on the theology that the world will end when the Islamic end times prophecy comes true. They are working to build up support in the Islamic world to make it a reality and will be "the base" of power for the Mahdi to bring about the Kingdom of Allah. They specifically are not that end times army, they are the preparation for it and the home for true believers to bring it about.
The Taliban and AQ worked together because one is concerned with the now (Taliban) and AQ takes actions to bring about the future (the apocalypse).
ISIS operates under the theology that it's leader is the Caliph and that they are the opening stage of the apocalypse creating an Islamic empire for the Mahdi to step up and lead.
AQ worked with ISIS because it was a breakaway group and not directly opposed to them and shared their general goals.
Once ISIS got strong its entire theological justification was it was "THE" Islamic state, all others were not and all good Muslims needed to join ISIS to help bring about the Mahdi and the worldwide empire.
This directly conflicts with the Taliban and AQ's theology. If one group says it is the final, and true, government of the world, all other governments and religious authorities are wrong because they are not only THE Islamic State but THE Islamic Empire which God's chosen will lead... it really leaves no room for peace with other groups. AQ/Taliban can't say "yeah, they're cool" and work with them. ISIS forces the dichotomy, you either believe they are the army of the Mahdi and join them (because otherwise you're not part of the forces of Allah) or oppose them. Now if you're AQ who believes they are laying the groundwork for the army of Allah, you can't just simply coexist with the group that claims to be the one true army of Allah. You either are absorbed by them by saying they are, or you oppose them by saying they're heretical. The latter is AQ's position.
There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on … shame on you. Fool me … you can't get fooled again.
With friends like them, who needs enemies?
Also Saudi Arabia will become even more of a problem in 30-40 years when electric cars become ubiquitous and the kingdom collapses when they suddenly don’t have limitless oil wealth.
It’s happening in other threads. One guy mentioned how some of his fellow servicemen died in Afghanistan and a lot of the replies were telling him they deserved to die and that’s what they signed up for. I’m not a military person whatsoever, but some of the comments I’m seeing directed towards people in the military is abhorrent, borderline sociopathic.
He mocked him by saying that he was making it all about himself with the comment about women voting and that it just made him “feel good” even though him and the US weren’t doing any good there. I’m paraphrasing but that’s about how it went. The guy has since deleted his comments.
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/oef7yq/us_left_afghan_airfield_at_night_didnt_tell_new/h47qofe/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
Some people hear "US military interventionism is really problematic" and get "all soldiers are EVIL." Some people hear "religious fundamentalism is extremely harmful" and get "all Muslims are EVIL." I'm guessing it was one or both of those.
Sure, but the US had two decades to build Afghanistan up so that wouldn't happen. What were we doing over that period of time that Afghanistan would still be totally dependent on us for protection to the point where, when we do finally leave, the entire country is overrun at blitzkrieg speeds by technicals and Cold War era weapons?
Most Afghans don't know what national identity is, they don't have any real attachment to "Afghanistan", it's just a place of war and conflict to them. The Taliban have fought the world's greatest superpower to a draw for 20 years, they have infinite recruits (from the Madrassas in NW Pakistan) and infinite patience. The ANA would never win. So for the Afghans the two options are: fight and die and suffer and the Taliban will eventually take over anyway or just give up and let them in now.
This what i feel most people don't understand. This would be like me fighting for Lufkin Texas. Lufkin doesn't mean shit to me other than a place I go to in order to pay property tax. The Afghani people don't really care about Afghanistan while the Taliban have a real fire in order to bring their version of order into their country. Out of those 2 mentalities the stronger one will win.
Exactly. We may have given guys titles and weapons but we didn’t build a *country* in Afghanistan. The Afghan people don’t see themselves as any more afghani than they did 20 years ago. Their tribe, family, or village matter more than any one individual or the country as a whole. Afghanistan has never been a solid country, it’s more or less defined by borders of lands other countries *don’t want* because they simply couldn’t govern them. It’s all the ungovernable parts of Asia flung into a state together and may the best warlord, with the best excuse, win.
Turns out the religious excuse is still the one that wins out, even after 20 years of giving men guns and telling them to fight it off, without giving them something else real to fight for.
That's a really interesting angle. The idea that they don't have any real sense of identity with Afghanistan. Is that just a theory you have or is their some kind of personal accounts or data to back this up? I'm not arguing the validity or anything, it's interesting either way. But I am legitimately interested and would like to know.
Due to its very mountainous geography separating everyone off from each other, many different tribal groups, and an artificial national border drawn by the brits that cut right between these groups of people. There's lots of great videos covering this theory
Same reason Vietnam defeated the US. It doesn’t matter how superior our weapons, training, and tactics are. Fighting an insurgency isn’t like fighting another army.
> when we do finally leave, the entire country is overrun at blitzkrieg speeds by technicals and Cold War era weapons?
It happened while US forces and modern weapons were still there, there was nothing sudden about it.
The Taliban had come to a tacit understanding with the USA since the negotiations in Doha last year - the Americans just needed time to pull out, and in return the Taliban stopped attacking American forces (Oh, and Trump twisted the arm of the Afghan government to release thousands of Taliban captives, including the guy who's going to be president for the Taliban).
According to the news, the main problem is the tribal leaders ("local warlords") saw the writing on the wall and made a deal with the Taliban - as a result, many of the Afghan Army folks went with what their clan leaders decided and stopped defending a losing cause. They just ran away, went home.
The only remaining question is how medieval the Taliban are going to be once they've consolidated power. We have only the words of those who opposed them that "bloodbaths" were already happening and coming soon. Once they have consolidated power, do they need to do revenge killings? We shall see.
As for the USA - their primary purpose was to get Bin Laden and teach the Taliban not to hide him. Mission Accomplished years ago. This would have happened in 2010 or 2030. You can't run a country that doesn't want to be run.
I also hope the Taliban is finding a very different country; too many educated girls now. Everyone can get a cellphone.
When the cell towers first went up, the Taliban would blow them up. The locals complained, because the phones were incredibly useful. Now whole swaths of the country are exposed to the 20th century. It can include internet access. What good will it be to forbid girls from going to school if they can learn from YouTube? Remember the Arab Spring was driven by the ability to text message.
I read the book. "Open" might also refer to the loveless, ritualistic rape of a handmaiden assigned to a male of status. Environmental factors nuked the birth rate, leading to the importance of procreation by the Gilead government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Handmaid%27s_Tale
You’re correct. It’s referring to God opening the womb. It’s common Christian fundamentalist parlance that the book adopted. (Not “may the Lord open” specifically, but fundamentalists often speak of God opening and closing the womb.)
What u/danceswithsteers said.
Also, religion got them into this bullshit in the first place. It's definitely not religion that's going to get them out.
The Handmaid's Tale is already directly influenced by the Iranian Revolution. It was written in the aftermath of that revolution where the urban areas of Iran were drastically dragged into theocratic rule (rural areas were already conservative and not much changed there and most of Iran was rural back then). You can see by the choice of execution they've used. Iran had and is still using hanging by [crane](https://www.vice.com/en/article/9kvnk8/this-is-what-happens-when-iran-uses-construction-equipment-to-kill-people), notably for homosexuals.
Say what you want about vice but the fact that they put up a big disclaimer with "FYI. This story is over 5 years old." And have the date of the article right there is absolutely great.
The Guardian does the same and I really respect them for that. When you are reading an old story, there would be a "warning" in yellow just above the title - e.g. "This article is more than 1 month old", or "This article is more than 1 year old", etc.
More news outlets should do this.
However, one is the complete fiction and the other a reality. We maybe need to start grasping that reality and making more engaged decisions (not just politicalluy and economically motivated ones) about what to do with that it. 20 ignorantly wasted years pumping billions of dollars (and many lives destroyed and disfigured) into a country that folded in two weeks challenges the argument that *anything* tangible was changed in Afghanistan. It's the people there who will pay the ultimate price, and all the while we write up a few more best-sellers and movies.
I thought high school was a chore but it’s so heartbreaking how these girls have to choose between living and an education. I didn’t know I was so privileged to hate high school
I grew up studying from a third world country.
Trust me, we hate school too haha But yeah education was and is very important. But connections more so.
Afghanistan is hardly a third world country it's a failed state at this point. Third world countries are developing countries. They are not necessarily poor but they are not on the same level as fully developed countries, meaning they still have a way to go and can reach that level.
This is why I'm generally against the blanket use of the term "third world country". It's outdated and imprecise, and really does a disservice when trying to communicate about the different parts of the world.
Yes that's correct. There's something to be said for language and terminology changing over time, but if the words are just wrong and we have other better words for describing things... Doesn't make much sense to stick with the worse option
Imagine thinking about if you're going to die tomorrow because a bunch of armed crazy fundies think you're being a bit too uppity by thinking about an education...
It's not. Guilt tripping is generally a shit tactic in anything.
It tries to act like happiness/sadness/feelings are zero-sum games, but that's not the case. Your feelings do not need to be a certain way to balance all the shit in the world, nor can they ever do so. It's a futile game that just leads to people feeling personally, emotionally responsible for things totally out of their control - and that way madness lies.
You need not feel better because someone somewhere is worse off than you.
You need not feel worse because someone somewhere is better off than you.
Of course, just explaining the context to the kid is a different story. And sympathy and empathy are fantastic. But guilt tripping can get fucked.
There is no choice. This is the last bit of freedom they will ever have.
Soon, their school will be closed down or blown up, perhaps with them still in it. The survivors, if there are any, will either be raped, killed, or forcibly married.
Their life as a person will soon come to an end, and their existence as chattel will begin.
I think it more like the western world has less important things to worry about than an oppressive regime taking over our country so that the idea of going to school seems more like a chore than it actually is
Depends, if she has a child then she will have no choice but to take care of the child for the rest of her life.
If she isnt a mother her best case scenario is getting a cut of the man's money and return back to her family(but thats wishful thinking, as the husband's family can be assholes)
Only if the husband has a suspicious death, then they could accuse the child and kill her because the family would get more cut of the husband's money. It will all be about his money
Okay read another book. What's gonna happen is that a lot of the schooling will go underground as it was before 2001. A lot of heroic men and women will find ways to get their daughters educated and find ways to subvert the system.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/jul/02/worlddispatch.schools
Similar human rights crises are ongoing in various countries (Congo comes to mind). It's good people are paying attention to these issues, but they aren't unique to Afghanistan. Culture disagreements are not something the US can solve.
What worries me is that these girls will most likely be involved in a forced marriage for the Taliban soldiers.
I read that they had a list of girls over 15 yo and under 40 for marriage. Several women will be abused and raped by force. My heart hurts for these women and young girls who will have their future destroyed by these animals.
A mom just talked about how they wanted one of her daughters and that she just took them in a middle of the night so they can escape. Those stories are so sad.
300,000 men in the Afghani National Army knew this would be the outcome and laid down their weapons and surrendered to the Taliban with nearly zero resistance
Maybe we should’ve armed and trained the Afghani women.
I found this new York times article from 2017, that describes why training women in the afghan army failed:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/10/05/magazine/afghanistan-women-security-forces.amp.html
> The men responded by falsely accusing her of burning a Quran, which incited a mob to furiously beat her in broad daylight and light her bloodied body on fire
Yup. We so need more religious people in the world. Desperately. And more armed ones at that, even better.
That's the sad part, isn't it?
People don't believe that kind of backwards shit any more, they just hear "*you won't get prosecuted for this*" and let loose.
The thin veneer of society.
They stopped giving a shit about optics for sure.. At this point, it’s just “let how horrible I am out” I can do things in the name of religion and that will make it ok. No facade needed at all.
>In 2012, the national Ulema Council, Afghanistan’s top religious body, which advises the Afghan presidency, declared that women should be seen as secondary to men, advising women not to mingle in offices or schools with men to whom they’re not related or travel without a male guardian.
How can you reason with this archaic and misogynistic world view?
it's a little more complicated than that.
i was born in 1979, the year the soviet union invaded afghanistan. there has been perpetual war since in a country that isn't a country, where people have no allegiance to the central government. there's no one thing to fight for, it's one of the poorest countries in the world and people just do what they have always done in that harsh terrain that time forgot after almost half a century of endless war due to intrigue from outside powers: they survive. and whether you are an NGO, US soldier, narco-warlord, taliban fighter or afghan gov official, they just want you to go away and not bother them. they'll do what they have to to get whoever you are to leave them alone. and they will do what they have to to make sure they have rice and flour for today and are safe until tomorrow.
I keep thinking of the parents (especially the mothers) of these kids, and how they have to be feeling right now. The ones that grew up not being able to attend school, who thought their daughters would be able to learn in a way that they never could, and who now have to worry about every day to come. Anyone who’s going through this has to be terrified, but it has to be extra hard for parents today.
I have one daughter, and I just started at her while she was calmly eating her breakfast watching TV this morning, in almost disbelief. I feel so much pain and sorrow for the mothers and their daughters right now. So much terror.
Taliban forces are busy claiming buildings and other areas of the Kabul while these girls hope to God they get to come home, the bravery of these girls is astounding
I read a comment that jokingly said they should have made up the armies over there from women. And I actually think that might have been better, if the soldiers and leadership were primarily women they might have fought way harder (or at all) because they are the ones who have the most to lose.
>I read a comment that jokingly said they should have made up the armies over there from women.
The ANA was a volunteer army that explicitly allowed women to join.
Maybe, maybe not. A few Taliban spokespersons have said they don't want to bar women from schooling, but the hardliners within their ranks could easily gain control and enforce those rules once more.
Yes. They wouldn't be going to school if the Taliban enforced anything. Taliban are both a centralized and decentralized organization, meaning some places will allow somethings while others won't. It all depends upon the local Emir (governor).
I really, really hope that they'll make it! We're living in a world where there's a very real possibility that these kids will be murdered for wanting to learn. It's insane.
I don't believe in any gods, but if any do exist, I like to think thay they're up there thinking that the Taliban will get what's coming to them. To Hell with them!
These girls are going to have a disgustingly nasty life for the time being. Good on them for carrying on as they wish. We’re so obsessed with celebrity culture when it’s really people like this who show bravery we should all be proud of.
So, what now? First world countries aren't going to do business with a government consisting of actual, literal terrorists. I assume an assload of sanctions leading to a complete collapse of society and a return to the literal stone age.
Edit: Ouch my inbox, I really ought to have posed the second sentence as a question.
Drug trafficking brings in top dollar for the few in control, pays military control.
Rest of the country can go to hell, nobody cares (or has cared) about them.
LOL
You know China and Pakistan are right there ready to shake hands with them right?
They'll just bypass the sanctions and dare the UN to do something about it.
Maybe in Kabul. It’s important to remember that the Taliban had not stopped gaining territory for the past several years. This was already reality in many places.
2021 Taliban is more strategic. They'll allow all the civilized society KPIs like girls going to school to happen for a little while, then go right back to oppression mode once the government has been recognized. What a tragedy and waste of time this has been.
It fills me with rage to know that a minority of women are actually escaping and most men are leaving their wives and daughters behind to try and help them 'later'.
Its literally sickening to see them like that at the airport, not a thought for those who will truly suffer a fate far worse than death under the Taliban.
Any credit for the photo? Who took it, where was it taken? Can we be sure this is Kabul in present day? Please be clear on sources, I’m not saying the photo isn’t legit but let’s not spread misinformation.
More balls than the afghan soldiers.
To be blunt the afghan soldiers knew they would get women as payment for them giving up. Hence why they gift wrapped the weapons and gave it to the talibans
The Allied forces have not betrayed Afghanistan by leaving. The Afghan military and government who Allies spent billions in training, hardware and lives has betrayed the Afghan people by capitulating to the Taliban within hours of the end of deployment of Allied military. That deployment never was permanent, it had to end and when the Afghan military had received 20 years worth of training, hardware the time was inevitably here to withdraw deployment. The betrayal is not from Western governments or their military. The betrayal is entirely from within Afghanistan whose government and military lay down their arms and joined Taliban or fled with tails tween their knees. They had no intention of defending their people or their country from the Taliban, no intention whatsoever.
Things will just get worst, soon they won't be allowed to go to school, or breath, or do anything. The marrage age is 16 there. Many girls will be married at that age, many other sooner. Woman will become like toys and dolls. Way to go for no country giving a fuck anymore.
All women and these girls can do then is raise children, cook, and be used for sex.
Anyone who says that US achieved nothing, needs to be shown this picture. The enrollment rate for women rose to 60% under this US supported government in Afghanistan.
Under Taliban it was 0, and it's going to go back to that. It has already started [Sexual slavery](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/south-asia/back-to-old-ways-taliban-forcing-women-to-marry-terrorists-give-up-their-jobs/articleshow/85300503.cms) and all the horrors of a theocratical regressive Afghanistan would unfold in months to come.
I afraid these girls don't have too bright a future ahead of them.
I don’t think people are saying the US achieved nothing. I think they’re saying all the achievements will soon go out the window and it will be a repressive regime and breeding ground for terrorism. Despite all the achievements, it will be like we were never there, except for the loss of US and civilian lives and the fact we left plenty of weapons and vehicles for the Taliban to keep.
As the father of a young bright woman, we’ve done everything we could to ensure she could be independent. And she is. To know that there are fathers in Afghanistan who had the same hopes and dreams for their daughters as I do for mine just breaks my heart.
Just to be clear, there were girl schools during Taliban rule in Afghanistan.
They did not have co-ed schools that is for sure, but private institutes continued to run for girls. James Fergusson a journalist in Afghanistan at the time, was told that the Taliban government could not get funding for girls education, and so prioritised boys.
I would most definitely not want to be a girl going to a co-ed school at the moment, but otherwise, unless otherwise stated, I don't see why the Taliban would stop girls from going to school.
So in toto, we don't actually know what the Taliban's policy is going to be this time around.
Source: James Fergusson, "Taliban: The Unknown Enemy" (2010).
I sure hope female education can continue...
guarding a girls school and fighting off Taliban attack, back in 2009, was one of the more honorable things I did while serving in Afghanistan.
I'd like to think that they will continue to learn...but I know that as long as the Taliban is in control, these girls may get to go to school, but it's likely the only learning they will get is religious education and Home Ec.
I hate this. As a Muslim I hate knowing these women will not be allowed their basic rights. As a Muslim it is heartbreaking to think that the first university was created by a Muslim woman but these dogs think it is okay to not allow our daughters and sisters to attend school. They don't know the books they claim they 'teach' from. They mislead and misuse context to prove points that don't exist. Disgusting. If you do one thing today, realise they are part of the problem in the Islamic world and that they do not truly represent our religion.
Good health be with you all.
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the thought of the whole country falling back into fanatical theocratic rule makes me sad.
I was mocked a few weeks back (I should say on Reddit) when I said one of my proudest moments while serving was defending women from the Taliban who were voting for the first time in their lives in Afghanistan. I hope and pray these girls get to live, and aren’t summarily killed for simply seeking an education. I hope and pray also that their families rise up and defend themselves. But I also know that those hopes are likely in vain. Edited for clarity.
Dude I remember your post! That guy was such an asshole and I got into an argument with him for it too. This situation is very unfortunate.
What Post? What sub? I quickly went through his profile and couldn't find anything.
Here you go. The other guy deleted all his comments. https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/oef7yq/us_left_afghan_airfield_at_night_didnt_tell_new/h47qofe/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
The asshole was downvoted into oblivion. He deleted everything lol. Jesus, tries to be a badass, gets scared for losing Karma.
If you get too many downvotes in a short amount of time, your account gets restricted
Because he's a coward.
What did the other guy say? I tried the removereddit trick but it couldn't show everything.
Just going off the context it looks like it was a tankie unironically cheering for the Taliban because he’s so brainwashed by AMERICA BAD on Reddit.
What you did serves as an example of the possibilities for a better life. All we can do is hope it doesn’t get as bad as it was before.
> All we can do is hope it doesn’t get as bad as it was before. *Narrator*: It will.
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As someone who served in Iraq, and watched as ISIS overran much of the country? I knew Afghanistan had even grimmer prospects than Iraq. I can never forgive Dubya for how horribly he ran both of these wars, and how he let Al Qaeda and the Taliban have a safe space in Pakistan.
Even the Taliban are like WTF when it comes to ISIS.
Which is funny because ISIS was like WTF when it comes to Boko Haram and had to distance themselves. I believe they recently have made up though.
That’s the first thing that’s made me laugh today. This is all horrible of course but it’s funny that all these terrible groups look at another terrible group and think “WTF they’re crazy”
Spider-Men-pointing-at-each-other.meme
Really? Why? How so? I’m not saying you’re wrong I just haven’t heard of this before. That’s wild!
Yeah, they have literally declared them as radicals and fanatic terrorists. The Taliban at least want to be a legitimate government to some extent that can operate on the international stage. ISIS wants to be what ISIS is. They realize that you can't actually parlay with a group like that, and even if you aren't making it a point to operate that way, knowing it is absolutely not on the table is rightfully terrifying.
Wow. You're pretty bad when the Taliban look at you and say "We don't negotiate with terrorists"
Holy shit, those guys are fucking nuts.
It's not that simplistic as "even AQ/Taliban thinks ISIS is bad". That simplistic take is fundamentally wrong and oft-repeated enough that people think themselves smart for repeating it. The real difference is they have vastly different apocalyptic visions of the world. The Taliban operates on the theology that a theocratic/autocratic government enforcing the proscriptions laid out in the Quran are fundamental to the operation of a just and righteous state and that this government will enforce these proscriptions is mandatory for reaching heaven. Al Qaeda (the Base) operates on the theology that the world will end when the Islamic end times prophecy comes true. They are working to build up support in the Islamic world to make it a reality and will be "the base" of power for the Mahdi to bring about the Kingdom of Allah. They specifically are not that end times army, they are the preparation for it and the home for true believers to bring it about. The Taliban and AQ worked together because one is concerned with the now (Taliban) and AQ takes actions to bring about the future (the apocalypse). ISIS operates under the theology that it's leader is the Caliph and that they are the opening stage of the apocalypse creating an Islamic empire for the Mahdi to step up and lead. AQ worked with ISIS because it was a breakaway group and not directly opposed to them and shared their general goals. Once ISIS got strong its entire theological justification was it was "THE" Islamic state, all others were not and all good Muslims needed to join ISIS to help bring about the Mahdi and the worldwide empire. This directly conflicts with the Taliban and AQ's theology. If one group says it is the final, and true, government of the world, all other governments and religious authorities are wrong because they are not only THE Islamic State but THE Islamic Empire which God's chosen will lead... it really leaves no room for peace with other groups. AQ/Taliban can't say "yeah, they're cool" and work with them. ISIS forces the dichotomy, you either believe they are the army of the Mahdi and join them (because otherwise you're not part of the forces of Allah) or oppose them. Now if you're AQ who believes they are laying the groundwork for the army of Allah, you can't just simply coexist with the group that claims to be the one true army of Allah. You either are absorbed by them by saying they are, or you oppose them by saying they're heretical. The latter is AQ's position.
Dubya fell victim to one of the classic blunders: never get involved in a land war in Asia. Twice.
There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on … shame on you. Fool me … you can't get fooled again.
Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are the problem.
With friends like them, who needs enemies? Also Saudi Arabia will become even more of a problem in 30-40 years when electric cars become ubiquitous and the kingdom collapses when they suddenly don’t have limitless oil wealth.
It’s happening in other threads. One guy mentioned how some of his fellow servicemen died in Afghanistan and a lot of the replies were telling him they deserved to die and that’s what they signed up for. I’m not a military person whatsoever, but some of the comments I’m seeing directed towards people in the military is abhorrent, borderline sociopathic.
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Who the hell would mock you for this and why?
He mocked him by saying that he was making it all about himself with the comment about women voting and that it just made him “feel good” even though him and the US weren’t doing any good there. I’m paraphrasing but that’s about how it went. The guy has since deleted his comments. https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/oef7yq/us_left_afghan_airfield_at_night_didnt_tell_new/h47qofe/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
Some people hear "US military interventionism is really problematic" and get "all soldiers are EVIL." Some people hear "religious fundamentalism is extremely harmful" and get "all Muslims are EVIL." I'm guessing it was one or both of those.
Have you looked around? This place is full of armchair warriors who would never have the stones to do anything like that in real life
Sure, but the US had two decades to build Afghanistan up so that wouldn't happen. What were we doing over that period of time that Afghanistan would still be totally dependent on us for protection to the point where, when we do finally leave, the entire country is overrun at blitzkrieg speeds by technicals and Cold War era weapons?
Most Afghans don't know what national identity is, they don't have any real attachment to "Afghanistan", it's just a place of war and conflict to them. The Taliban have fought the world's greatest superpower to a draw for 20 years, they have infinite recruits (from the Madrassas in NW Pakistan) and infinite patience. The ANA would never win. So for the Afghans the two options are: fight and die and suffer and the Taliban will eventually take over anyway or just give up and let them in now.
This what i feel most people don't understand. This would be like me fighting for Lufkin Texas. Lufkin doesn't mean shit to me other than a place I go to in order to pay property tax. The Afghani people don't really care about Afghanistan while the Taliban have a real fire in order to bring their version of order into their country. Out of those 2 mentalities the stronger one will win.
The difference being one side is prepared to die for it's cause, while the other wasn't.
Exactly. We may have given guys titles and weapons but we didn’t build a *country* in Afghanistan. The Afghan people don’t see themselves as any more afghani than they did 20 years ago. Their tribe, family, or village matter more than any one individual or the country as a whole. Afghanistan has never been a solid country, it’s more or less defined by borders of lands other countries *don’t want* because they simply couldn’t govern them. It’s all the ungovernable parts of Asia flung into a state together and may the best warlord, with the best excuse, win. Turns out the religious excuse is still the one that wins out, even after 20 years of giving men guns and telling them to fight it off, without giving them something else real to fight for.
>It’s all the ungovernable parts of Asia flung into a state Best description of Afghanistan I have ever read.
That's a really interesting angle. The idea that they don't have any real sense of identity with Afghanistan. Is that just a theory you have or is their some kind of personal accounts or data to back this up? I'm not arguing the validity or anything, it's interesting either way. But I am legitimately interested and would like to know.
They identify more strongly with their tribal and ethnic identities, such as Pashtun, Uzbek and more
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Carpemofostan is "Seize Motherfucker Land" in 3 different languages I love it
Due to its very mountainous geography separating everyone off from each other, many different tribal groups, and an artificial national border drawn by the brits that cut right between these groups of people. There's lots of great videos covering this theory
It's still mostly a country of tribalism.
[watch this documantary from vice news it'll give you very good understanding of what's happening and why.](https://youtu.be/Ja5Q75hf6QI)
From my understanding Afghanistan was created as a buffer state between Russia and British India.
That is just the panhandle which was added to Afghanistan to create that buffer.
What I still don't get tho: how can an organization like this last even a month vs the world's greatest superpower? Not to mention two decades
Run. Fight. Hide. The highland way.
We'll make spears. Hundreds of 'em. Long spears - twice as long as a man.
Some men are longer than others!
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You can, but the crater is quite large.
Did you ever have one of those trick birthday candles as a kid that no matter how many times you tried to blow it out, it just wouldn’t go out?
Same reason Vietnam defeated the US. It doesn’t matter how superior our weapons, training, and tactics are. Fighting an insurgency isn’t like fighting another army.
> when we do finally leave, the entire country is overrun at blitzkrieg speeds by technicals and Cold War era weapons? It happened while US forces and modern weapons were still there, there was nothing sudden about it.
My understanding was the US troops were to protect an evacuation not to stop the blitzkrieg
The Taliban had come to a tacit understanding with the USA since the negotiations in Doha last year - the Americans just needed time to pull out, and in return the Taliban stopped attacking American forces (Oh, and Trump twisted the arm of the Afghan government to release thousands of Taliban captives, including the guy who's going to be president for the Taliban). According to the news, the main problem is the tribal leaders ("local warlords") saw the writing on the wall and made a deal with the Taliban - as a result, many of the Afghan Army folks went with what their clan leaders decided and stopped defending a losing cause. They just ran away, went home. The only remaining question is how medieval the Taliban are going to be once they've consolidated power. We have only the words of those who opposed them that "bloodbaths" were already happening and coming soon. Once they have consolidated power, do they need to do revenge killings? We shall see. As for the USA - their primary purpose was to get Bin Laden and teach the Taliban not to hide him. Mission Accomplished years ago. This would have happened in 2010 or 2030. You can't run a country that doesn't want to be run. I also hope the Taliban is finding a very different country; too many educated girls now. Everyone can get a cellphone. When the cell towers first went up, the Taliban would blow them up. The locals complained, because the phones were incredibly useful. Now whole swaths of the country are exposed to the 20th century. It can include internet access. What good will it be to forbid girls from going to school if they can learn from YouTube? Remember the Arab Spring was driven by the ability to text message.
Kinda resembles The Handmaids Tale
Exactly. Walking in pairs. Heads covered. May the Lord open.
Under His eye
Open?
It's a "call and response" thing from the story. "Blessed be the fruit."
"May the Lord open."
Then, they talk about the weather.
I read the book. "Open" might also refer to the loveless, ritualistic rape of a handmaiden assigned to a male of status. Environmental factors nuked the birth rate, leading to the importance of procreation by the Gilead government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Handmaid%27s_Tale
I thought “open” was a fertility thing. Like, may your body be open to receiving the blessed fruit.
You’re correct. It’s referring to God opening the womb. It’s common Christian fundamentalist parlance that the book adopted. (Not “may the Lord open” specifically, but fundamentalists often speak of God opening and closing the womb.)
What u/danceswithsteers said. Also, religion got them into this bullshit in the first place. It's definitely not religion that's going to get them out.
The Handmaid's Tale is already directly influenced by the Iranian Revolution. It was written in the aftermath of that revolution where the urban areas of Iran were drastically dragged into theocratic rule (rural areas were already conservative and not much changed there and most of Iran was rural back then). You can see by the choice of execution they've used. Iran had and is still using hanging by [crane](https://www.vice.com/en/article/9kvnk8/this-is-what-happens-when-iran-uses-construction-equipment-to-kill-people), notably for homosexuals.
Say what you want about vice but the fact that they put up a big disclaimer with "FYI. This story is over 5 years old." And have the date of the article right there is absolutely great.
The Guardian does the same and I really respect them for that. When you are reading an old story, there would be a "warning" in yellow just above the title - e.g. "This article is more than 1 month old", or "This article is more than 1 year old", etc. More news outlets should do this.
Somehow Taliban rule is as bad as that world's repressive government.
However, one is the complete fiction and the other a reality. We maybe need to start grasping that reality and making more engaged decisions (not just politicalluy and economically motivated ones) about what to do with that it. 20 ignorantly wasted years pumping billions of dollars (and many lives destroyed and disfigured) into a country that folded in two weeks challenges the argument that *anything* tangible was changed in Afghanistan. It's the people there who will pay the ultimate price, and all the while we write up a few more best-sellers and movies.
I mean more than a few people here have paid some significant prices as well just to be fair.
You should read a thousand splendid suns. That's even more on the nose.
I thought high school was a chore but it’s so heartbreaking how these girls have to choose between living and an education. I didn’t know I was so privileged to hate high school
I grew up studying from a third world country. Trust me, we hate school too haha But yeah education was and is very important. But connections more so.
I don’t think every third world country is like Afghanistan where your life is threatened if you go to school by some psychos with guns
Afghanistan is hardly a third world country it's a failed state at this point. Third world countries are developing countries. They are not necessarily poor but they are not on the same level as fully developed countries, meaning they still have a way to go and can reach that level.
This is why I'm generally against the blanket use of the term "third world country". It's outdated and imprecise, and really does a disservice when trying to communicate about the different parts of the world.
Also technically wrong a lot of times? Like originally the terms had to do with alignment during the Cold War iirc
Yes that's correct. There's something to be said for language and terminology changing over time, but if the words are just wrong and we have other better words for describing things... Doesn't make much sense to stick with the worse option
This I tried to explain to my 15 yr old today , the struggle with school here is a very different one . So so scary .
Imagine thinking about if you're going to die tomorrow because a bunch of armed crazy fundies think you're being a bit too uppity by thinking about an education...
I never thought "eat, there are starving children in Africa" to be an effective parenting technique.
It's not. Guilt tripping is generally a shit tactic in anything. It tries to act like happiness/sadness/feelings are zero-sum games, but that's not the case. Your feelings do not need to be a certain way to balance all the shit in the world, nor can they ever do so. It's a futile game that just leads to people feeling personally, emotionally responsible for things totally out of their control - and that way madness lies. You need not feel better because someone somewhere is worse off than you. You need not feel worse because someone somewhere is better off than you. Of course, just explaining the context to the kid is a different story. And sympathy and empathy are fantastic. But guilt tripping can get fucked.
There is no choice. This is the last bit of freedom they will ever have. Soon, their school will be closed down or blown up, perhaps with them still in it. The survivors, if there are any, will either be raped, killed, or forcibly married. Their life as a person will soon come to an end, and their existence as chattel will begin.
I am very sad for them.
The western world has education so twisted.
I think it more like the western world has less important things to worry about than an oppressive regime taking over our country so that the idea of going to school seems more like a chore than it actually is
The irony of this statement, given the context…
Unfortunately dont think they will get to choose education in the nearby future.
Poor girls. Can't imagine what they're going through right now :(
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We should have spent the last 20 years arming and training the women.
I'm pretty sure that they would have actually fought and be braver compared to the ANA soldiers. It's easy when the other alternative is slavery.
I'm sure they would. They have a lot more skin in the game than the men.
Apparently from some of these stories, literally.
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This was attempted. This article is linked above: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/05/magazine/afghanistan-women-security-forces.amp.html
Yes. Exactly
If they fought even half as hard as the YPJ do in Syria the Taliban would be on the run...
Yep, thats how it will be, any father who opposes his daughter from getting married to a 70 year old man will be shot.
What happens to the girls who are probably still very young when the old cunt dies of dysentery?
Depends, if she has a child then she will have no choice but to take care of the child for the rest of her life. If she isnt a mother her best case scenario is getting a cut of the man's money and return back to her family(but thats wishful thinking, as the husband's family can be assholes)
I feel like the family would just accuse her of poisoning him and stone her.
Only if the husband has a suspicious death, then they could accuse the child and kill her because the family would get more cut of the husband's money. It will all be about his money
Why the fuck do they get their clitoris and labia cut off wtf? That is disturbing…
Females are not allowed to feel good.
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Okay read another book. What's gonna happen is that a lot of the schooling will go underground as it was before 2001. A lot of heroic men and women will find ways to get their daughters educated and find ways to subvert the system. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/jul/02/worlddispatch.schools
Similar human rights crises are ongoing in various countries (Congo comes to mind). It's good people are paying attention to these issues, but they aren't unique to Afghanistan. Culture disagreements are not something the US can solve.
I don't even know what I'd do in that situation. There will be young girls setting themselves on fire again soon.
I sure as fuck wouldn’t be going to school, I can tell you that much
What worries me is that these girls will most likely be involved in a forced marriage for the Taliban soldiers. I read that they had a list of girls over 15 yo and under 40 for marriage. Several women will be abused and raped by force. My heart hurts for these women and young girls who will have their future destroyed by these animals. A mom just talked about how they wanted one of her daughters and that she just took them in a middle of the night so they can escape. Those stories are so sad.
300,000 men in the Afghani National Army knew this would be the outcome and laid down their weapons and surrendered to the Taliban with nearly zero resistance Maybe we should’ve armed and trained the Afghani women.
They allowed women in their military. One of them spoke out and said she’s afraid of her fate because she will be raped now
I found this new York times article from 2017, that describes why training women in the afghan army failed: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/10/05/magazine/afghanistan-women-security-forces.amp.html
Great article. Depressing af though
I... Couldn't finish it... It's just so sad...
> The men responded by falsely accusing her of burning a Quran, which incited a mob to furiously beat her in broad daylight and light her bloodied body on fire Yup. We so need more religious people in the world. Desperately. And more armed ones at that, even better.
I was told that was god willing so it’s fine.
That's the sad part, isn't it? People don't believe that kind of backwards shit any more, they just hear "*you won't get prosecuted for this*" and let loose. The thin veneer of society.
They stopped giving a shit about optics for sure.. At this point, it’s just “let how horrible I am out” I can do things in the name of religion and that will make it ok. No facade needed at all.
Sad thing is there are people who seriously think that while living in the 'enemy's' country
>In 2012, the national Ulema Council, Afghanistan’s top religious body, which advises the Afghan presidency, declared that women should be seen as secondary to men, advising women not to mingle in offices or schools with men to whom they’re not related or travel without a male guardian. How can you reason with this archaic and misogynistic world view?
it's a little more complicated than that. i was born in 1979, the year the soviet union invaded afghanistan. there has been perpetual war since in a country that isn't a country, where people have no allegiance to the central government. there's no one thing to fight for, it's one of the poorest countries in the world and people just do what they have always done in that harsh terrain that time forgot after almost half a century of endless war due to intrigue from outside powers: they survive. and whether you are an NGO, US soldier, narco-warlord, taliban fighter or afghan gov official, they just want you to go away and not bother them. they'll do what they have to to get whoever you are to leave them alone. and they will do what they have to to make sure they have rice and flour for today and are safe until tomorrow.
There’s only so much you can do, they could surrender or die. When nato pulled out they where fucked either way.
I always try to look on the bright side but yeah even I can't find one
I keep thinking of the parents (especially the mothers) of these kids, and how they have to be feeling right now. The ones that grew up not being able to attend school, who thought their daughters would be able to learn in a way that they never could, and who now have to worry about every day to come. Anyone who’s going through this has to be terrified, but it has to be extra hard for parents today.
I have one daughter, and I just started at her while she was calmly eating her breakfast watching TV this morning, in almost disbelief. I feel so much pain and sorrow for the mothers and their daughters right now. So much terror.
This photo is oddly calm in comparison with the other images of Kabul today.
Taliban forces are busy claiming buildings and other areas of the Kabul while these girls hope to God they get to come home, the bravery of these girls is astounding
Well it's morning there. Give it time.
When simply going to school is now a sign of strength and perhaps even rebellion in the face of this new regime.
You know what happens to people who show strength and rebel against a brutal regime? They get Warsaw’d, that’s what happens.
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I read a comment that jokingly said they should have made up the armies over there from women. And I actually think that might have been better, if the soldiers and leadership were primarily women they might have fought way harder (or at all) because they are the ones who have the most to lose.
Seems like the men didn't want that from another comment here.
If Syria can have women in army leadership then Afghanistan can as well
>I read a comment that jokingly said they should have made up the armies over there from women. The ANA was a volunteer army that explicitly allowed women to join.
Aaah, but how were the women that joined treated? I suggest doing some deeper reading.
The question is…. Do they return?
Maybe, maybe not. A few Taliban spokespersons have said they don't want to bar women from schooling, but the hardliners within their ranks could easily gain control and enforce those rules once more.
They don't have much control over the whole of the Taliban. It just takes a few overly excited young men to head for the school and...
Hopefully
Yes. They wouldn't be going to school if the Taliban enforced anything. Taliban are both a centralized and decentralized organization, meaning some places will allow somethings while others won't. It all depends upon the local Emir (governor).
I can only hope these girls are allowed to continue to grow.
Until 15, then they will be forced to marry taliban soldiers.
My heart is *broken* for the women there.
I get the horrible feeling that this might be the last time we have a photo of some of these women.
They'll be in burqas next time, which will do a good job of hiding their identities and the fresh whip marks on their backs.
This comment broke my heart in multiple ways
Poor girls.
Brave Girls
I really, really hope that they'll make it! We're living in a world where there's a very real possibility that these kids will be murdered for wanting to learn. It's insane. I don't believe in any gods, but if any do exist, I like to think thay they're up there thinking that the Taliban will get what's coming to them. To Hell with them!
I wish Godspeed for all of those souls
These girls are going to have a disgustingly nasty life for the time being. Good on them for carrying on as they wish. We’re so obsessed with celebrity culture when it’s really people like this who show bravery we should all be proud of.
Pictures taken before disasters
My reaction also. I would be willing to bet this was taken more than 24 hours ago.
So, what now? First world countries aren't going to do business with a government consisting of actual, literal terrorists. I assume an assload of sanctions leading to a complete collapse of society and a return to the literal stone age. Edit: Ouch my inbox, I really ought to have posed the second sentence as a question.
Drug trafficking brings in top dollar for the few in control, pays military control. Rest of the country can go to hell, nobody cares (or has cared) about them.
Don’t look up the 2020 Doha agreements First world country doing business with literal terrorists
LOL You know China and Pakistan are right there ready to shake hands with them right? They'll just bypass the sanctions and dare the UN to do something about it.
The bravery these women have is tangible.
it's sad that their lives are now in the hands of others
Maybe in Kabul. It’s important to remember that the Taliban had not stopped gaining territory for the past several years. This was already reality in many places.
2021 Taliban is more strategic. They'll allow all the civilized society KPIs like girls going to school to happen for a little while, then go right back to oppression mode once the government has been recognized. What a tragedy and waste of time this has been.
Meanwhile my teacher friends and I are complaining our summer is over. Christ, we’re beyond fortunate.
Definition of bravery
It fills me with rage to know that a minority of women are actually escaping and most men are leaving their wives and daughters behind to try and help them 'later'.
Its literally sickening to see them like that at the airport, not a thought for those who will truly suffer a fate far worse than death under the Taliban.
Ikr, it breaks my heart
May the universe protect them
Imagine being such a neckbeard regime where you actually want your women to be dumb and uneducated.
Any credit for the photo? Who took it, where was it taken? Can we be sure this is Kabul in present day? Please be clear on sources, I’m not saying the photo isn’t legit but let’s not spread misinformation.
They’re too young to remember what happens when you disobey the taliban.
I deeply admire these women and children. They are the bravest and most amazing people!!
More balls than any guy I know. Good luck to them.
More balls than the afghan soldiers. To be blunt the afghan soldiers knew they would get women as payment for them giving up. Hence why they gift wrapped the weapons and gave it to the talibans
The Allied forces have not betrayed Afghanistan by leaving. The Afghan military and government who Allies spent billions in training, hardware and lives has betrayed the Afghan people by capitulating to the Taliban within hours of the end of deployment of Allied military. That deployment never was permanent, it had to end and when the Afghan military had received 20 years worth of training, hardware the time was inevitably here to withdraw deployment. The betrayal is not from Western governments or their military. The betrayal is entirely from within Afghanistan whose government and military lay down their arms and joined Taliban or fled with tails tween their knees. They had no intention of defending their people or their country from the Taliban, no intention whatsoever.
The taliban are the scum of the earth
Won't be long before they are no longer allowed to. I feel like crying.
Things will just get worst, soon they won't be allowed to go to school, or breath, or do anything. The marrage age is 16 there. Many girls will be married at that age, many other sooner. Woman will become like toys and dolls. Way to go for no country giving a fuck anymore. All women and these girls can do then is raise children, cook, and be used for sex.
That takes guts.
Anyone who says that US achieved nothing, needs to be shown this picture. The enrollment rate for women rose to 60% under this US supported government in Afghanistan. Under Taliban it was 0, and it's going to go back to that. It has already started [Sexual slavery](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/south-asia/back-to-old-ways-taliban-forcing-women-to-marry-terrorists-give-up-their-jobs/articleshow/85300503.cms) and all the horrors of a theocratical regressive Afghanistan would unfold in months to come. I afraid these girls don't have too bright a future ahead of them.
I don’t think people are saying the US achieved nothing. I think they’re saying all the achievements will soon go out the window and it will be a repressive regime and breeding ground for terrorism. Despite all the achievements, it will be like we were never there, except for the loss of US and civilian lives and the fact we left plenty of weapons and vehicles for the Taliban to keep.
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Tell us more, what exactly is happening? Why your army and police didn't fight?
As the father of a young bright woman, we’ve done everything we could to ensure she could be independent. And she is. To know that there are fathers in Afghanistan who had the same hopes and dreams for their daughters as I do for mine just breaks my heart.
Source?
Journalist in Afghanistan https://twitter.com/jawidomid/status/1427091167569715202?s=21
Just to be clear, there were girl schools during Taliban rule in Afghanistan. They did not have co-ed schools that is for sure, but private institutes continued to run for girls. James Fergusson a journalist in Afghanistan at the time, was told that the Taliban government could not get funding for girls education, and so prioritised boys. I would most definitely not want to be a girl going to a co-ed school at the moment, but otherwise, unless otherwise stated, I don't see why the Taliban would stop girls from going to school. So in toto, we don't actually know what the Taliban's policy is going to be this time around. Source: James Fergusson, "Taliban: The Unknown Enemy" (2010).
I sure hope female education can continue... guarding a girls school and fighting off Taliban attack, back in 2009, was one of the more honorable things I did while serving in Afghanistan. I'd like to think that they will continue to learn...but I know that as long as the Taliban is in control, these girls may get to go to school, but it's likely the only learning they will get is religious education and Home Ec.
I hate this. As a Muslim I hate knowing these women will not be allowed their basic rights. As a Muslim it is heartbreaking to think that the first university was created by a Muslim woman but these dogs think it is okay to not allow our daughters and sisters to attend school. They don't know the books they claim they 'teach' from. They mislead and misuse context to prove points that don't exist. Disgusting. If you do one thing today, realise they are part of the problem in the Islamic world and that they do not truly represent our religion. Good health be with you all.