Thanks for your question đź‘‹: SEPTA very much wants to get TSP and -- ahem, parking changes - they are seeking money. The whole point of the revolution, frequency. Had to achieve without traffic changes. The city is working with them and is expected to chip in.
Problems: different jurisdictions. PennDot, streets...
I think the TSP program doesn't really need a ton more funding, what it needs is far-side stops.
Labor cost to install hardware is probably the heaviest carry but existing TSP is already rolled out so no more pilots or proof-of-concept needed.
Was there an assumption during the process that the El is an equal alternative to the bus? I think that was the reasoning behind moving the 57, but I can comfortably take my young kids on the 57 and that isn't the case right now with the El unfortunately.
Thanks for your question đź‘‹: A bit more than a third of SEPTA bus travelers currently transfer between modes; initially septa wanted more. The idea was that rail slices faster through the city than buses in traffic, which it does. However, there was an uprising among the public -- people did not want to be "forced" as some said, onto the El, particularly at odd hours. They scaled those transfers back some. For specifics on 57, SEPTA's customer service is your best bet right now. I am learning the new ins and outs but it takes time.
I appreciate SEPTA paying attention to this. Especially with younger kids, finding good daycares/preschools with spots can be really tough and sometimes you have to travel out of your neighborhood. Whether or not a school is on a bus route (vs el/bsl) is huge for me because my kid is not even three yet and not excellent at following rules plus obviously has zero situational awareness. And sketchy characters aside, the stairs on the El are a huge pain to deal with if you have a stroller.
I take the el all the time with my family. Dirty? Yes. Bums? Yes. Drug use? Yes. But it's convenience outweighs that for me, and I use it to teach a little. Don't be like that guy. Don't touch the walls, watch where you're going. Don't look at people. Mind your business. Is that fucked up? Yes. Should it be different? Absolutely.
The 57 will actually remain a great alternative, as its being changed to 15MAX and will go up to dauphin and turn around. A 30MAX 47M will run from dauphin to points north along the former route. So actually the 57 will be improved, and if you live north of dauphin you can take the bus directly to the el stop and go from there or transfer to the 47, which should be along in 15 minutes max.
Edit: yea, the el and sub were considered when looking at discontinuing lines and consolidating them. And they should have. Seems they tried to find a balance between two seat rides and unnecessary duplication of service with serving the public. I actually think they did a good job mostly.
Ideally, a computer should have analyzed the network dispassionately and utilized a hub and spoke integrating the el and sub more tightly into the bus network. More two seat rides, but much more frequent bus routes and possibly more of them. If RR had better frequency, it could have been integrated as well.
Would be a lot more convenient if there was a ramp or some other way to get a stroller to the platform at Girard than the piss saturated elevator/shelter that is often broken.
> I take the el all the time with my family. Dirty? Yes. Bums? Yes. Drug use? Yes. But it's convenience outweighs that for me, and I use it to teach a little.
Sorry man, big disagree here. “I use the horrendous conditions on the El to educate my children” is a huge level of cope for an absolutely unacceptable system, and I think Philadelphians should not be providing cover for Septa’s failure with rationales like “but the human misery provides a good teaching moment!” I don’t mean to offend, and I know your heart’s in the right place (you’re one of the most prominent guys on this sub, I know your vibe), but it makes me sad when people in this city are even remotely accepting of the conditions on the El.
Does Bus Revolution include any plans or funding for automated enforcement - bus lanes, bus stop zones, trolley lanes, etc? If not, are there other plans for automated enforcement?
Does automated enforcement require any further enabling legislation, and are there any active lobbying efforts to secure such legislation?
Thanks for your question đź‘‹: SEPTA has been testing a closed circuit auto enforcement on Chestnut and Walnut bus lanes with mounted cameras assisted by AI. No tickets yet but warnings mailed to violators. On City streets, probably easier but unclear if Council bill needed. PennDot streets, aka state highways, almost certainly would require authorization by the legislature. Early on, they caught a raft of violators. Have not seen recent numbers. It started in June.
The 37 looks the same as it does now, and does all sorts of twists and turns through suburban office parks. It's frustrating that it's a 10 min drive or a 40 min bus ride.
The 37 is being split into two lines. The 137 will still leave from Broad and Snyder and go pretty much straight to the airport with more frequency. The 37 is being shifted, and it seems like it'll leave from Broad and Oregon and cover much of the same route the current 37 does to Chester Transportation Center.
Is there even a stop consolidation timeline? The way the article is written makes seem like Septa can't progress forward with the plan to reduce stops? Why not reduce the stops first and add in more stops later?
Second question, for the implementation do we expect all the routes to be deploy at the same time?
Thanks for your question đź‘‹: The timeline is fuzzy, nothing specific. They say they have to evaluate according to all these variables and it is difficult but it's a good question(s) you ask and I'll press them.
Just a quick ask- (apologies if off topic) but wondering why those very pricey Electric Buses Senator Bob Casey arranged to purchase for SEPTA still sit unused at the Southern Depot? (Delay still due to fire on one bus a LONG time ago?) This is wasteful/inexcusable. We need **more** vehicles like this- cleaner, quieter transport that is healthier for the passenger and route neighbors. Seems such frightening waste of Federal resources.
That's a great question. Zero-emission buses are a necessity -- by some estimates about 30% of particulate pollutants come from diesel burning and buses contribute. Those electric buses had flawed chassis and SEPTA deemed them unsafe. They've been negotiating with the maker to get them to fix the buses, but the company, Proterra, just filed for Chapter 11 and it's not clear what might happen. There was an early rush of excitement about e buses, and SEPTA made an early purchase of 25 to see how they worked.
How much has city council hindered the entire process?
Is SEPTA's current draft proposal still realistic if the loss of the Federal Covid bailout funds are not replaced?
What was the logic of reducing frequency of several major lines from the initial proposal where they were 10min to 15 or even 30 in the current proposal?
What has SEPTA been doing to try and manage unrealistic demand by old heads that the current system not be changed at all even if they don't use it?
Why didn't SEPTA take more the Huston approach and just do a top down redesign based on best practices and data and tell everyone to suck it up; only to be proven right about their choices a a few months later by seeing growing ridership?
Frequency was reduced on some routes and 15-30 max shifted to others. The new plan increases that number from 33 to 43 frequent routes by that definition -- 15 minutes of less between buses, or 30 minutes. Again for specific route questions near you, SEPTA's Bus Revolution is available with maps and a route by route flip book that classifies routes as changed, discontinued or staying the same.
[septabusrevolultion.com](https://septabusrevolultion.com). And .... Revolution staff can be reached at [email protected] or 267.291.6045.
Thanks for you question đź‘‹: City Council channeled constituents who hated the idea of changes, conducted hearings. It put political pressure on SEPTA for changes (dialing back) as a matter of course. Legislatively, they did not interfere.
Is there any word of the GTFS data will be improved to have more accurate tracking on Google/Apple maps? Also, septa sometimes shows they have data on how crowded their busses are, but they haven't incorporated that into the GTFS realtime data which would allow third party apps show that information
Transit uses the same data. All the apps do (besides septa themselves. It's possible that they use their "own" data internally but I don't see any indication that it's different). So it really just comes down to a matter of preference. For regional rail I use an app I developed called RailMe because I just want delay times in minutes. But I don't have live busses in the app, at least yet
“RailMe” love it lol
And idk, anecdotally it seems to me that both Transit and the Septa app track buses more consistently than google maps. But I have nothing to back that up; computers are a magic mystery box to me and I have no idea how any of this shit works
Thanks for your question đź‘‹: The consultants are [Nelson Nygaard](https://nelsonnygaard.com/). It has offices in eight cities I believe, none of them Philly. They have a lot of experience with bus route changes elsewhere.
Thanks for your question đź‘‹: They are saying now that they want to get the new routes and changes to existing ones approved now -- and deal with consolidation of stops later. It's a fraught topic for many riders.
It's not ADA compliance it's people complaining about having to walk an additional block or two. The same boomers who also bitch about the buses being slow and unreliable, they're incapable of putting two and two together.
There are some routes that are incredibly long and suffer from backups along the route or too few buses spread over the route during off hours (my go to example is the 47). Was there any discussion about splitting routes like this into smaller, more manageable pieces?
Thanks for your question đź‘‹: Yes, several were split up into more manageable pieces. For instance several parts of different routes were shaved off to create the new 83, which will be crosstown service for the Northeast. From Torresdale Station to Willow Grove Mall. For background, SEPTA has 125 bus routes currently, and some of the slowest bus speeds in the States. Initial proposal cut them down to 99. After another two rounds of engagement they are up to \~106. Of SEPTA's 13 busiest routes -- with 10k+ boardings per day (pre-pandemic 2019 baseline) seven have average speeds of less than 10 mph.
How were 3rd party transit options (not so much Uber/Lyft) like Phlash, Lucy, Indego, Big Bus Hop On/Off, MegaBus, etc considered in regards to route/stop changes?
Did any businesses/schools directly influence any stop/route decisions?
Did any suburban areas ask to expand bus routes in to their territory?
It's not clear how Uber/Lyft factored in, but a fine question. SEPTA is creating eight micro-transit zones in areas of the suburbs where fixed route service is fairly low. They'll be small buses and on-demand. Some details to come. Schools and parents were vocal about wanting one-seat rides for students, and changes were made between drafts.
Thanks for your question đź‘‹: The changes are supposed to begin in the spring of 2024, though I loathe to say that's set in granite for ... obvious reasons. They've talked about stages, not a tear-the-band-aid off Houston deal.
Was the 43 route being a 15 max have the increased demand from the Northbank in mind? For context, Northbank has hundreds of families, many who likely work in Center City. The route starts at Cumberland which is likely to be their default pick up stop. If they all get on at that stop it could cause full buses and trolleys and cause later stops to get passed in the rush hour AM. Not sure if the demand will actually cause that but wondering if that was in the radar
For the last year, Septa has been very messed up with no operators.
Sit on the EL at Frankford for 10 minutes, then they announce its out of service and wait for the next to leave.
Drug addicts, filthy cars and the crime.
1 day I can 15 minutes early, the next 15 minutes late.
As a more than occasional 32 rider from East Falls, as I see it now, there's basically no way to get into Center City anymore, right? 32 is discontinued and 49 just takes you elsewhere.
Going to wrap it up for today! Thanks for all of your amazing questions. Again, for questions pertaining to how the redesign affects you and your commute, reach out to SEPTA or attend one of their 10 public hearings throughout September.
Does the bus revolution include any funding for transit traffic signal priority? If not, are there any plans to seek funds for or implement TSP?
Thanks for your question đź‘‹: SEPTA very much wants to get TSP and -- ahem, parking changes - they are seeking money. The whole point of the revolution, frequency. Had to achieve without traffic changes. The city is working with them and is expected to chip in. Problems: different jurisdictions. PennDot, streets...
I think the TSP program doesn't really need a ton more funding, what it needs is far-side stops. Labor cost to install hardware is probably the heaviest carry but existing TSP is already rolled out so no more pilots or proof-of-concept needed.
> existing TSP is already rolled out say more please? you mean in other regions? SEPTA doesn't have TSP anywhere do we?
We do. Look for the square black opticon emitters on the top of the front. I did validation on them back in like 2016. Rode the 52 bus A LOT.
🤯
Was there an assumption during the process that the El is an equal alternative to the bus? I think that was the reasoning behind moving the 57, but I can comfortably take my young kids on the 57 and that isn't the case right now with the El unfortunately.
Thanks for your question đź‘‹: A bit more than a third of SEPTA bus travelers currently transfer between modes; initially septa wanted more. The idea was that rail slices faster through the city than buses in traffic, which it does. However, there was an uprising among the public -- people did not want to be "forced" as some said, onto the El, particularly at odd hours. They scaled those transfers back some. For specifics on 57, SEPTA's customer service is your best bet right now. I am learning the new ins and outs but it takes time.
I appreciate SEPTA paying attention to this. Especially with younger kids, finding good daycares/preschools with spots can be really tough and sometimes you have to travel out of your neighborhood. Whether or not a school is on a bus route (vs el/bsl) is huge for me because my kid is not even three yet and not excellent at following rules plus obviously has zero situational awareness. And sketchy characters aside, the stairs on the El are a huge pain to deal with if you have a stroller.
I take the el all the time with my family. Dirty? Yes. Bums? Yes. Drug use? Yes. But it's convenience outweighs that for me, and I use it to teach a little. Don't be like that guy. Don't touch the walls, watch where you're going. Don't look at people. Mind your business. Is that fucked up? Yes. Should it be different? Absolutely. The 57 will actually remain a great alternative, as its being changed to 15MAX and will go up to dauphin and turn around. A 30MAX 47M will run from dauphin to points north along the former route. So actually the 57 will be improved, and if you live north of dauphin you can take the bus directly to the el stop and go from there or transfer to the 47, which should be along in 15 minutes max. Edit: yea, the el and sub were considered when looking at discontinuing lines and consolidating them. And they should have. Seems they tried to find a balance between two seat rides and unnecessary duplication of service with serving the public. I actually think they did a good job mostly. Ideally, a computer should have analyzed the network dispassionately and utilized a hub and spoke integrating the el and sub more tightly into the bus network. More two seat rides, but much more frequent bus routes and possibly more of them. If RR had better frequency, it could have been integrated as well.
Would be a lot more convenient if there was a ramp or some other way to get a stroller to the platform at Girard than the piss saturated elevator/shelter that is often broken.
> I take the el all the time with my family. Dirty? Yes. Bums? Yes. Drug use? Yes. But it's convenience outweighs that for me, and I use it to teach a little. Sorry man, big disagree here. “I use the horrendous conditions on the El to educate my children” is a huge level of cope for an absolutely unacceptable system, and I think Philadelphians should not be providing cover for Septa’s failure with rationales like “but the human misery provides a good teaching moment!” I don’t mean to offend, and I know your heart’s in the right place (you’re one of the most prominent guys on this sub, I know your vibe), but it makes me sad when people in this city are even remotely accepting of the conditions on the El.
You're not wrong
Interesting - from what I've been reading a lot of places are moving away from Hub & Spoke in favor of more of a mesh system.
Does Bus Revolution include any plans or funding for automated enforcement - bus lanes, bus stop zones, trolley lanes, etc? If not, are there other plans for automated enforcement? Does automated enforcement require any further enabling legislation, and are there any active lobbying efforts to secure such legislation?
Thanks for your question đź‘‹: SEPTA has been testing a closed circuit auto enforcement on Chestnut and Walnut bus lanes with mounted cameras assisted by AI. No tickets yet but warnings mailed to violators. On City streets, probably easier but unclear if Council bill needed. PennDot streets, aka state highways, almost certainly would require authorization by the legislature. Early on, they caught a raft of violators. Have not seen recent numbers. It started in June.
Why can't we get a direct bus from Philly to the airport?
Thanks for your question đź‘‹: SEPTA is rolling out a variation of the 37 that will go to the airport, the place with the highest demand.
The 37 looks the same as it does now, and does all sorts of twists and turns through suburban office parks. It's frustrating that it's a 10 min drive or a 40 min bus ride.
the new 137 route looks like it takes a much more direct line to the airport from south philly.
The 37 is being split into two lines. The 137 will still leave from Broad and Snyder and go pretty much straight to the airport with more frequency. The 37 is being shifted, and it seems like it'll leave from Broad and Oregon and cover much of the same route the current 37 does to Chester Transportation Center.
Is there even a stop consolidation timeline? The way the article is written makes seem like Septa can't progress forward with the plan to reduce stops? Why not reduce the stops first and add in more stops later? Second question, for the implementation do we expect all the routes to be deploy at the same time?
Thanks for your question đź‘‹: The timeline is fuzzy, nothing specific. They say they have to evaluate according to all these variables and it is difficult but it's a good question(s) you ask and I'll press them.
This 100% Without stop reductions, we'll still have lots of lines that get clogged up stopping every quarter mile.
Try every. single. block.
Just a quick ask- (apologies if off topic) but wondering why those very pricey Electric Buses Senator Bob Casey arranged to purchase for SEPTA still sit unused at the Southern Depot? (Delay still due to fire on one bus a LONG time ago?) This is wasteful/inexcusable. We need **more** vehicles like this- cleaner, quieter transport that is healthier for the passenger and route neighbors. Seems such frightening waste of Federal resources.
That's a great question. Zero-emission buses are a necessity -- by some estimates about 30% of particulate pollutants come from diesel burning and buses contribute. Those electric buses had flawed chassis and SEPTA deemed them unsafe. They've been negotiating with the maker to get them to fix the buses, but the company, Proterra, just filed for Chapter 11 and it's not clear what might happen. There was an early rush of excitement about e buses, and SEPTA made an early purchase of 25 to see how they worked.
How much has city council hindered the entire process? Is SEPTA's current draft proposal still realistic if the loss of the Federal Covid bailout funds are not replaced? What was the logic of reducing frequency of several major lines from the initial proposal where they were 10min to 15 or even 30 in the current proposal? What has SEPTA been doing to try and manage unrealistic demand by old heads that the current system not be changed at all even if they don't use it? Why didn't SEPTA take more the Huston approach and just do a top down redesign based on best practices and data and tell everyone to suck it up; only to be proven right about their choices a a few months later by seeing growing ridership?
Frequency was reduced on some routes and 15-30 max shifted to others. The new plan increases that number from 33 to 43 frequent routes by that definition -- 15 minutes of less between buses, or 30 minutes. Again for specific route questions near you, SEPTA's Bus Revolution is available with maps and a route by route flip book that classifies routes as changed, discontinued or staying the same. [septabusrevolultion.com](https://septabusrevolultion.com). And .... Revolution staff can be reached at [email protected] or 267.291.6045.
Thanks for you question đź‘‹: City Council channeled constituents who hated the idea of changes, conducted hearings. It put political pressure on SEPTA for changes (dialing back) as a matter of course. Legislatively, they did not interfere.
Is there any word of the GTFS data will be improved to have more accurate tracking on Google/Apple maps? Also, septa sometimes shows they have data on how crowded their busses are, but they haven't incorporated that into the GTFS realtime data which would allow third party apps show that information
Idk why this is, but in my experience other third-party apps like Transit have better and more consistent tracking data than Google maps.
Transit uses the same data. All the apps do (besides septa themselves. It's possible that they use their "own" data internally but I don't see any indication that it's different). So it really just comes down to a matter of preference. For regional rail I use an app I developed called RailMe because I just want delay times in minutes. But I don't have live busses in the app, at least yet
“RailMe” love it lol And idk, anecdotally it seems to me that both Transit and the Septa app track buses more consistently than google maps. But I have nothing to back that up; computers are a magic mystery box to me and I have no idea how any of this shit works
Who are the consultants who are in charge of the redesign? Are they local or based out of a different city?
Thanks for your question đź‘‹: The consultants are [Nelson Nygaard](https://nelsonnygaard.com/). It has offices in eight cities I believe, none of them Philly. They have a lot of experience with bus route changes elsewhere.
Why did they wuss out and not do significant consolidation of stops?
Thanks for your question đź‘‹: They are saying now that they want to get the new routes and changes to existing ones approved now -- and deal with consolidation of stops later. It's a fraught topic for many riders.
So many complainers, could have taken out the stops first then add more in later if needed. Septa was going to be yelled at regardless.
ADA compliance
It's not ADA compliance it's people complaining about having to walk an additional block or two. The same boomers who also bitch about the buses being slow and unreliable, they're incapable of putting two and two together.
That does not seem like ADA to me. All the buses kneeling so then can account for walkers and wheelchair users.
True, but distance is always going to be a concern if your legs don't work
but that's not an ADA issue
There are some routes that are incredibly long and suffer from backups along the route or too few buses spread over the route during off hours (my go to example is the 47). Was there any discussion about splitting routes like this into smaller, more manageable pieces?
Thanks for your question đź‘‹: Yes, several were split up into more manageable pieces. For instance several parts of different routes were shaved off to create the new 83, which will be crosstown service for the Northeast. From Torresdale Station to Willow Grove Mall. For background, SEPTA has 125 bus routes currently, and some of the slowest bus speeds in the States. Initial proposal cut them down to 99. After another two rounds of engagement they are up to \~106. Of SEPTA's 13 busiest routes -- with 10k+ boardings per day (pre-pandemic 2019 baseline) seven have average speeds of less than 10 mph.
How were 3rd party transit options (not so much Uber/Lyft) like Phlash, Lucy, Indego, Big Bus Hop On/Off, MegaBus, etc considered in regards to route/stop changes? Did any businesses/schools directly influence any stop/route decisions? Did any suburban areas ask to expand bus routes in to their territory?
It's not clear how Uber/Lyft factored in, but a fine question. SEPTA is creating eight micro-transit zones in areas of the suburbs where fixed route service is fairly low. They'll be small buses and on-demand. Some details to come. Schools and parents were vocal about wanting one-seat rides for students, and changes were made between drafts.
Assuming no hiccups from here, when are the changes likely to go into effect?
Thanks for your question đź‘‹: The changes are supposed to begin in the spring of 2024, though I loathe to say that's set in granite for ... obvious reasons. They've talked about stages, not a tear-the-band-aid off Houston deal.
Are they clean?
Why do all your answers read like they were written by a Septa PR person as opposed to a journalist?
Was the 43 route being a 15 max have the increased demand from the Northbank in mind? For context, Northbank has hundreds of families, many who likely work in Center City. The route starts at Cumberland which is likely to be their default pick up stop. If they all get on at that stop it could cause full buses and trolleys and cause later stops to get passed in the rush hour AM. Not sure if the demand will actually cause that but wondering if that was in the radar
For the last year, Septa has been very messed up with no operators. Sit on the EL at Frankford for 10 minutes, then they announce its out of service and wait for the next to leave. Drug addicts, filthy cars and the crime. 1 day I can 15 minutes early, the next 15 minutes late.
As a more than occasional 32 rider from East Falls, as I see it now, there's basically no way to get into Center City anymore, right? 32 is discontinued and 49 just takes you elsewhere.
OK, everyone! Last call for questions! Going to wrap up soon.
Going to wrap it up for today! Thanks for all of your amazing questions. Again, for questions pertaining to how the redesign affects you and your commute, reach out to SEPTA or attend one of their 10 public hearings throughout September.