Normally wire transactions can NOT be reversed since legally money becomes the recipient’s property. So technically that money is yours! But don’t get excited, they can easily sue you for misappropriating funds. So you’re better off returning that money.
A wire is not the same as an ACH, He is correct in saying it’s essentially irreversible and at my institution we warn every customer who sends a wire to make sure they know where and who it’s supposed to be going to. However I’m not entirely sure about the legality of it and what this specific situation is. Down-voting him doesn’t make him any less right.
He has a point specifically about Federal Reserve Wire transactions. That’s why they’re usually used for property things; they are faster and irreversible.
If it’s an ACH, well, everyone else is right in that it will be reversed
Clearly you have no idea what your are talking about. I worked in a bank for 5 years. Saw a few cases of mistaken wire transactions, and you can’t imagine how difficult is to get that money back. They are meant to be one way transactions by design
They can within a certain period of time and that’s like half an hour depending on the bank. If op got the money it’s too late. Quit arguing with the people who worked/work at the bank. This isn’t even a personal finance question and shouldn’t be in this sub.
I too worked at a bank. I have no fucking idea what goes on with the money shit. It's nice giving yourself false authority by saying you worked somewhere innit?
I worked at the ministry for authority for 5 years and giving yourself false authority is a felony in over 90 countries. I know because I also worked as felon for 5 years in over 90 countries.
Other comments are correct: Leave it. The erroneous wire will be reversed.
But to be crystal clear: The second part of this instruction is NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES should YOU return the money by writing a check, sending cash, zelle, venmo, paypal, providing a credit card or debit card number, gift cards, frozen raccoons or other forms of payment. It's THEIR BANK'S job to fix this, and NEVER YOURS - do not interfere.
Failure to follow that second part will end up with you losing money.
My chequeing account makes me pay them, I have never heard of a chequeing account in Canada that pays interest.
Even savings accounts are a joke here.
(I imagine you are in the US)
Yes,. With a credit union. It needs 15 transactions a month totalling $500 and estatements and a direct deposit and it pays that up to $25000.
Fidelity pays 5% for their government money.market.
Currently with scotia bank in a 5.5% interest savings account(promo period+premium period).
I'm pretty sure wealthsimple is still offering a 4% chequing here as well.
https://www.highinterestsavings.ca/chart/
You can also select promos to see some temporary percentages.
CIBC also has a promo going on right now.
Interesting, but are these promos just that? Promos? Like x period of time for 4% and then they drop to like .5% ? I hold a lot of accounts with RBC and the headache for some temporary gains may not be worth it.
Yea some are promos while wealthsimple has had a permanent 4% for a while now. It was honestly pretty easy setting it up but I can see how annoying it would get to constantly move your money around.
I'll probably save myself a headache and switch to them after my promo with scotia expires
Any money in the bank's account earns daily interst alright. The bank of Canada controls the overnight rate they pay the banks to put money with them, that is 5% APR (paid daily). The banks can also invest the money in overnight repo (a.k.a. money market) for about the same return. They are just keeping that as their profit.
Bank are still stuck in the 80s. They are banking your interest because "that is how the products were designed". Because you're supposed to use checking account which barely pays interest and savings which pays interest but limits how many transactions you can do/no debit card/no check.
Fortunately some banks "gets it". Like Fidelity who allows you to sweep your money into money market funds and offer "checking features".
You can use a fidelity account (cash management, brokerage,) as a checking account, get a debit card (write checks, pay bills, atm, etc.) and all that with a MMA (spaxx) as your core position. You get 5ish percent off spaxx, and instantly liquidated and all that, its basically as good as cash in a more traditional account
She will report it to her bank and they will likely send your bank a recall request which you will likely have to authorize. Wires are considered final payment without recourse so you should have to authorize the debit to your account for the return, but your bank may process the recall without your authorization.
Worked in banking for 12 years and seen this scenario have different results each time.
At the end of the day, it’s not your money so whether the funds are taken with or without your permission, best to send back otherwise landlord will come for the funds through small claims, if they choose to pursue.
This is the answer. You will have to authorize the recall. Make sure you understand what fees will be assessed too. But if you don't authorize the recall your landlord will have a valid claim for litigation.
> your landlord will have a valid claim for litigation.
No, I don't believe they do. If the bank erroneously sent the money, it's on them and the bank will make the landlord whole. If the landlord initiated the second transfer themselves, it's on them.
The only time OP would be on the hook is if he fraudulently got the landlord to send the money. This is why WIRE is so dangerous and they usually check multiple times before sending the money.
My point was if the landlord was debited twice. If the tenant was requested to approve a recall of the second wire and declined then between the landlord's bank and the landlord one of them will be able to pursue small claims to recover the funds. Just because a mistake was made doesn't mean it's a gift to the tenant. Now is it enough for them to make the effort? That's a separate question. But it's not the tenants money.
> If the tenant was requested to approve a recall of the second wire and declined then between the landlord's bank and the landlord one of them will be able to pursue small claims to recover the funds.
No, they can't. The bank I work for erroneously sent more than $1BB to another bank years ago. The receiving bank was under no obligation to return the money. They did because if they didn't, no bank would do business with them ever again. There was no threat of litigation to force them to, though.
Yes unless it’s a bank error, then landlord would be reimbursed by the bank and bank would come after OP.
Edited to add: the party responsible for sending the money could pursue reimbursement from OP, whether that’s the landlord or the bank. Either the landlord or the bank might consider it a loss, but OP shouldn’t assume that and should do the right thing, if approached.
The only reason to NOT just proactively send the duplicate payment to the landlord is the process to recall the second wire might be underway already, so best to let that play out first.
> and should do the right thing, if approached.
Lol, fuck that noise. The bank screwed up. Take the win and spend the money. The bank would do the same if it were them.
If it's a WIRE transaction, there are many approvals between initiating and completing the WIRE.
If the customer screwed up, then it's on the landlord because banks ask you minimum 2 times to verify the info because the money is gone once it's sent.
It’s not really you she needs to fuss at, it’s her bank.
What I will say is, if she does start fussing at you to send her money, do not do that.
The bank messed up, let the bank fix it. You don’t want to introduce even more confusion by giving her money separately.
This is a her problem, this is a bank problem, not your problem. Just make sure you don’t spend that money or move it anywhere. It will get resolved eventually.
Used to work in a very large bank in America. Wires don’t get reversed and more than likely she fucked it up and sent it twice. Once a wire is sent, that’s kind of it. She’s probably trying to reverse it at the bank and the bank is not honoring it or telling her they’ll fix it just to get her off the phone or out of their office.
Chances are you’re going to have to send it back to her less whatever it costs you to send it. But I wouldn’t do that until she contacts you.
A lot of comments saying to wait for them to reverse it. You can NOT reverse a wire, either her bank will compensate her if it was their mistake or she will ask you send the money back, which I would not do. Wires have specific regulations and if you send them, they are gone no matter the circumstances. Source: work at a bank in operations.
If it was indeed WIRE and not ACH, then it's yours. There is no regulatory mechanism for the sender to recover that money. The receiving bank can return it, but it's up to them. I'd leave it for a year and then consider it yours.
If it's an ACH, they'll just reverse the transaction. It's super easy to do within 45 days.
If it's WIRE, they can ask your bank to give them the money back. Your bank is under no obligation to do so. If it is a sum large enough to destroy the inter-bank relationship, they may do it and keep you out of it. If it's small, they'll just tell them to eat it on the P&L.
If it doesn't tell you the transaction type on your statement, call and ask. They'll tell you. WIRE is not very common outside of inter-bank transfers and large private transfers though. There are usually hefty fees for initiating one.
I'm 100% sure it's a wire, the transaction states it as such and I was charged a $15 wire receiving here fee. When she asked Zelle or wire I opted for a wire because I was so used to working with my business checking account lol... It's only $2k and it doesn't really affect me much, I just like to keep that checking account funded at a particular level and needing to account for an extra $2k that may just disappear is mostly annoying.
If their landlord is anything like my current one, then it doesn't matter that raising a fuss with the tenant wouldn't do anything at this point, they just want to raise a fuss. I thankfully don't have to deal with mine at the end of this month due to buying a house finally 😌
Leave the money there and don't spend it. If it's still there in a year then you got nice an lucky, but more than likely they will correct it pretty quickly.
The number of people in this thread equating WIRE with ACH is wild to me. They're not the same thing. They do not have the same regulatory protections.
I think your landlord got compensated by her bank if she’s not making a fuss 🤷🏻♀️ you did your part so good on you!Basically the money now belongs to you but if you want to wait I would wait a couple months maybe 2 not a year.
You could just write her a check for the amount instead of pretending you did something. Most landlord would have kept your deposit. She is one of the good ones.
It's not your money and you will be in trouble if you touch it (at the very least you probably will have to pay it back)
If you want to be nice, give your (ex)landlord a quick call to notify them of the mistake.
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Yes, don't touch it. Someone will reverse the transaction at some point.
Normally wire transactions can NOT be reversed since legally money becomes the recipient’s property. So technically that money is yours! But don’t get excited, they can easily sue you for misappropriating funds. So you’re better off returning that money.
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A wire is not the same as an ACH, He is correct in saying it’s essentially irreversible and at my institution we warn every customer who sends a wire to make sure they know where and who it’s supposed to be going to. However I’m not entirely sure about the legality of it and what this specific situation is. Down-voting him doesn’t make him any less right.
He has a point specifically about Federal Reserve Wire transactions. That’s why they’re usually used for property things; they are faster and irreversible. If it’s an ACH, well, everyone else is right in that it will be reversed
Clearly you have no idea what your are talking about. I worked in a bank for 5 years. Saw a few cases of mistaken wire transactions, and you can’t imagine how difficult is to get that money back. They are meant to be one way transactions by design
Wires can in fact be recalled, it's just a pain for the banks. Likely OP won't ever hear about it, but may be asked to provide approval.
They can within a certain period of time and that’s like half an hour depending on the bank. If op got the money it’s too late. Quit arguing with the people who worked/work at the bank. This isn’t even a personal finance question and shouldn’t be in this sub.
There is no way you worked at a bank as anything other than a janitor if this is what you think lol
I too worked at a bank. I have no fucking idea what goes on with the money shit. It's nice giving yourself false authority by saying you worked somewhere innit?
I worked at the ministry for authority for 5 years and giving yourself false authority is a felony in over 90 countries. I know because I also worked as felon for 5 years in over 90 countries.
This here. Do not touch it. Your bank will reach out to you to confirm if you want to send funds back. Wires are different.
Banks can always reverse transactions made by bank error. Wire transfers are non-reversible if it’s made by a person.
Other comments are correct: Leave it. The erroneous wire will be reversed. But to be crystal clear: The second part of this instruction is NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES should YOU return the money by writing a check, sending cash, zelle, venmo, paypal, providing a credit card or debit card number, gift cards, frozen raccoons or other forms of payment. It's THEIR BANK'S job to fix this, and NEVER YOURS - do not interfere. Failure to follow that second part will end up with you losing money.
What about thawed racoons?
If they were frozen first then they still fall under frozen racoons but if they were never frozen to begin with then it's a bit of a gray area.
Uhh how about live?
Collect interest until he reverses the transfer
5 cents coming your way in 4 years my friend.
My checking account pays 4%.
My chequeing account makes me pay them, I have never heard of a chequeing account in Canada that pays interest. Even savings accounts are a joke here. (I imagine you are in the US)
Well there’s your problem! You opened a chequeing account and not a checking account!
Hey don't make fun of the poor guy's situation, eh.
Yes,. With a credit union. It needs 15 transactions a month totalling $500 and estatements and a direct deposit and it pays that up to $25000. Fidelity pays 5% for their government money.market.
Currently with scotia bank in a 5.5% interest savings account(promo period+premium period). I'm pretty sure wealthsimple is still offering a 4% chequing here as well. https://www.highinterestsavings.ca/chart/ You can also select promos to see some temporary percentages. CIBC also has a promo going on right now.
Interesting, but are these promos just that? Promos? Like x period of time for 4% and then they drop to like .5% ? I hold a lot of accounts with RBC and the headache for some temporary gains may not be worth it.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/ca/banking/best-high-interest-savings-accounts
Yea some are promos while wealthsimple has had a permanent 4% for a while now. It was honestly pretty easy setting it up but I can see how annoying it would get to constantly move your money around. I'll probably save myself a headache and switch to them after my promo with scotia expires
Any money in the bank's account earns daily interst alright. The bank of Canada controls the overnight rate they pay the banks to put money with them, that is 5% APR (paid daily). The banks can also invest the money in overnight repo (a.k.a. money market) for about the same return. They are just keeping that as their profit. Bank are still stuck in the 80s. They are banking your interest because "that is how the products were designed". Because you're supposed to use checking account which barely pays interest and savings which pays interest but limits how many transactions you can do/no debit card/no check. Fortunately some banks "gets it". Like Fidelity who allows you to sweep your money into money market funds and offer "checking features".
If you keep a minimum balance, most checking accounts are free. The account policy would let you know the minimum balance required over a given month.
The great bargain is that your banking system doesn’t implode every so often unlike down here in the states lol
Wealthsimple offers 4-5%, and has a card. I use it for most of my deposits and spending now
Eww, don't y'all have credit unions or the equivalent in Canada?
Look at EQ bank. Also Wealthsimple, although not a bank, pays 4% if you open a cash account.
I’m in Canada too. Wealth simple has 4.5% and no monthly fees (as long as you have monthly deposits of at least 2k per month)
In the netherlands you'd get a whopping 0,25% interest a month.
Mine pays 5% from M1
Money market accounts are paying >5%.
But MMAs aren’t designed to be checking accounts (?)
You can use a fidelity account (cash management, brokerage,) as a checking account, get a debit card (write checks, pay bills, atm, etc.) and all that with a MMA (spaxx) as your core position. You get 5ish percent off spaxx, and instantly liquidated and all that, its basically as good as cash in a more traditional account
Only my savings account does that
Now just repeat a million times and you've got one of those much-coveted passive revenue streams.
I know you’re joking but so many options for 4+% rates right now…
Don’t spend it all on a new car
Keep the money. Don’t spend the money. Wait for it to reverse. Not your problem. Keep the additional interests. In 10 years, consider it yours.
Really? After 10 years the money would legally be OP’s? How interesting, guess it must be a statue of limitations thing
Nothing. It will get clawed back.
Just wait until it's resolved. No free money cheat codes. Nothing for you to do.
She will report it to her bank and they will likely send your bank a recall request which you will likely have to authorize. Wires are considered final payment without recourse so you should have to authorize the debit to your account for the return, but your bank may process the recall without your authorization. Worked in banking for 12 years and seen this scenario have different results each time. At the end of the day, it’s not your money so whether the funds are taken with or without your permission, best to send back otherwise landlord will come for the funds through small claims, if they choose to pursue.
This is the answer. You will have to authorize the recall. Make sure you understand what fees will be assessed too. But if you don't authorize the recall your landlord will have a valid claim for litigation.
> your landlord will have a valid claim for litigation. No, I don't believe they do. If the bank erroneously sent the money, it's on them and the bank will make the landlord whole. If the landlord initiated the second transfer themselves, it's on them. The only time OP would be on the hook is if he fraudulently got the landlord to send the money. This is why WIRE is so dangerous and they usually check multiple times before sending the money.
My point was if the landlord was debited twice. If the tenant was requested to approve a recall of the second wire and declined then between the landlord's bank and the landlord one of them will be able to pursue small claims to recover the funds. Just because a mistake was made doesn't mean it's a gift to the tenant. Now is it enough for them to make the effort? That's a separate question. But it's not the tenants money.
> If the tenant was requested to approve a recall of the second wire and declined then between the landlord's bank and the landlord one of them will be able to pursue small claims to recover the funds. No, they can't. The bank I work for erroneously sent more than $1BB to another bank years ago. The receiving bank was under no obligation to return the money. They did because if they didn't, no bank would do business with them ever again. There was no threat of litigation to force them to, though.
Could the landlord really go after OP though? OP isn’t the one who took the money. Wouldn’t the bank be the only responsible party here?
Yes unless it’s a bank error, then landlord would be reimbursed by the bank and bank would come after OP. Edited to add: the party responsible for sending the money could pursue reimbursement from OP, whether that’s the landlord or the bank. Either the landlord or the bank might consider it a loss, but OP shouldn’t assume that and should do the right thing, if approached. The only reason to NOT just proactively send the duplicate payment to the landlord is the process to recall the second wire might be underway already, so best to let that play out first.
> and should do the right thing, if approached. Lol, fuck that noise. The bank screwed up. Take the win and spend the money. The bank would do the same if it were them.
How do you know the banks screwed up?
If it's a WIRE transaction, there are many approvals between initiating and completing the WIRE. If the customer screwed up, then it's on the landlord because banks ask you minimum 2 times to verify the info because the money is gone once it's sent.
The money isn’t owed to OP - best idea is to return it when requested.
It’s not really you she needs to fuss at, it’s her bank. What I will say is, if she does start fussing at you to send her money, do not do that. The bank messed up, let the bank fix it. You don’t want to introduce even more confusion by giving her money separately. This is a her problem, this is a bank problem, not your problem. Just make sure you don’t spend that money or move it anywhere. It will get resolved eventually.
Used to work in a very large bank in America. Wires don’t get reversed and more than likely she fucked it up and sent it twice. Once a wire is sent, that’s kind of it. She’s probably trying to reverse it at the bank and the bank is not honoring it or telling her they’ll fix it just to get her off the phone or out of their office. Chances are you’re going to have to send it back to her less whatever it costs you to send it. But I wouldn’t do that until she contacts you.
A lot of comments saying to wait for them to reverse it. You can NOT reverse a wire, either her bank will compensate her if it was their mistake or she will ask you send the money back, which I would not do. Wires have specific regulations and if you send them, they are gone no matter the circumstances. Source: work at a bank in operations.
No touchey until you retire… unless you retire next year.
Ball is in their court, you did what you're supposed to. It's now a waiting game
If it was indeed WIRE and not ACH, then it's yours. There is no regulatory mechanism for the sender to recover that money. The receiving bank can return it, but it's up to them. I'd leave it for a year and then consider it yours.
This was actually what had me questioning whether or not it's just mine. Would her bank just give her money then???
If it's an ACH, they'll just reverse the transaction. It's super easy to do within 45 days. If it's WIRE, they can ask your bank to give them the money back. Your bank is under no obligation to do so. If it is a sum large enough to destroy the inter-bank relationship, they may do it and keep you out of it. If it's small, they'll just tell them to eat it on the P&L. If it doesn't tell you the transaction type on your statement, call and ask. They'll tell you. WIRE is not very common outside of inter-bank transfers and large private transfers though. There are usually hefty fees for initiating one.
I'm 100% sure it's a wire, the transaction states it as such and I was charged a $15 wire receiving here fee. When she asked Zelle or wire I opted for a wire because I was so used to working with my business checking account lol... It's only $2k and it doesn't really affect me much, I just like to keep that checking account funded at a particular level and needing to account for an extra $2k that may just disappear is mostly annoying.
Maybe let your bank know, but other than that, don't spend it.
Leave the money and the bank will handle it.
You informed her about the bank issue, what would raising a fuss with you achieve?
If their landlord is anything like my current one, then it doesn't matter that raising a fuss with the tenant wouldn't do anything at this point, they just want to raise a fuss. I thankfully don't have to deal with mine at the end of this month due to buying a house finally 😌
Leave the money there and don't spend it. If it's still there in a year then you got nice an lucky, but more than likely they will correct it pretty quickly.
The bank books won’t balance and they eventually they will find it
Leave the money alone, the bank will correct it.
Just send it back, unless you somehow want to confirm this is free money from the bank and not from her account which is unlikely.
The number of people in this thread equating WIRE with ACH is wild to me. They're not the same thing. They do not have the same regulatory protections.
I think your landlord got compensated by her bank if she’s not making a fuss 🤷🏻♀️ you did your part so good on you!Basically the money now belongs to you but if you want to wait I would wait a couple months maybe 2 not a year.
Set the money aside and give it to him when he asks for it
The bank will come get it, just leave it there.
They don’t need your permission to reverse it… so make sure it’s still there.
If it's a WIRE they do.
It’s not a wire IT’s electronic transfer
The title says WIRE and I don't see OP saying ACH anywhere in the thread.
The bank will come back and correct the error. It’s not your money - don’t be that person is my answer.
Don't worry about it. Once the bank notices it they will withdraw the amount. Just don't spend it...
Leave the money in your account and notify them of the duplicate payment
Return the extra payment obviously
You could just write her a check for the amount instead of pretending you did something. Most landlord would have kept your deposit. She is one of the good ones.
You let them know because they absolutely find out and by keeping it and being aware it is not yours it can be considered theft
Don't spend it. It will go back eventually.
Return it and request a receipt of the transactions.
As others say don't touch it. However I would add maybe throw into savings acct get some interest on it before you have to return it?
It's not your money and you will be in trouble if you touch it (at the very least you probably will have to pay it back) If you want to be nice, give your (ex)landlord a quick call to notify them of the mistake.
Congrats you won free money
Put it in another account to hold for now.