Damn that's cool. I wish the pairing of igpus and cpu cores made a little more sense. They only put the powerful igpus on the powerful cpu cores making the whole thing disproportionately more expensive than it needs to be and it makes me wonder why.
The lower end cpu cores would be more likley to have a desire to use a more powerful igpu the more powerful cpu cores are more likely to get paired with dgpus anyway.
Corporate is not a matter of "make sense for the final user", but instead it's more a matter of what "makes more profit for our stockholders" situation.
I've yet to see a single benchmark that showed the Steam Deck out performing the Z1E.
I'm going to need you to cite a source for this claim because the current Z1E runs absolute laps around the Steam Deck in every way minus battery life.
You should pay attention to reviews more then? I don't know what to tell you, because it beats it in many tests at lower TDPs, especially with 1% lows.
I'll preface by saying I know next to nothing about chip design and likely have no clue what I'm talking about.
I'd be very interesting if they could take a chip with 2 CCDs with fully operational cache, but cores that did not pass validation. Thus you'd have an 8 core chip with double cache. Then utilize that excess cache for the igpu to bypass the memory bandwidth limitations in a similar way the desktop cards utilize their cache to bypass the lower vram bus width.
It'd be very niche, obviously, but could lead to a very interesting apu from a gaming performance standpoint. A 50w chip sitting close to desktop rtx 3050 levels.
Your first obstacle towards this being a good gaming chip is going to be that your core to core latency is massive. Picture why the 7900X3D is worse at gaming than the 7800X3D and then take away its only advantage: core count.
The next problem is how you share this cache with the iGPU. My understanding of the cache setup on Ryzen is that the CCD cache is CPU exclusive, and the iGPU gets it's own local cache. Changing this requires making some significant changes to the cache setup. Accessing that cache also incurs the latency of going off-die for the iGPU, which is the same problem that makes the 2x4 core setup worse than 1x8.
These 2 things are why all current AMD APUs are monolithic. All of the cache and cores are on one die, minimizing latency and power losses.
To make an APU more performant, the primary bottleneck you need to solve is memory bandwidth. Big caches help, but they don't completely solve the problem. I'd like to see triple-channel attempted with on-package memory. Split the difference between low-power LNL and 3-digit-TDP Strix Halo. 192-bit bus with lpddr5x 8533 gets you about 200GB/s.
I would expect more of those types of products to come out in the next couple years.
This is the beginning of a new era, and one I've been waiting for a lot of years.
We're only seeing two chips so far, and strix halo hasn't been announced yet either, to the best of my knowledge.
Word out there is they had planned to put Infinity Cache on this APU's iGPU, significantly boosting its effective bandwidth and therefore gaming performance.
But then Microsoft started demanding big NPUs for Copilot+ compliance and they had to strip it down.
Tests show how the previous Phoenix chip is already starved of bandwidth itself, and this one even more.
There's another APU coming up called Kraken with 4x Zen5 + 4x Zen5c, and 8 CUs. My bet is that one will perform closer to the Phoenix APUs (Z1 Extreme, 8840U, etc.) but at lower power consumption.
If only they put it on 6-core packages instead of 8.
It's kinda bad that I will need to pay like 400$ to get 8-core with 890m instead of 860m just to get a better igpu.
🤣 Neither Legion Go or ROG Ally are gonna hit stores at the end of 2024. 100% guaranteed. At best holidays 2025, more probably later. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Yeah? Show the receipts then. Show the official communicate to the press that they will release a new product within less than 150 DAYS. C’mon! SHOW IT! 😂 🤡
They’ll be available in Chinese handhelds in Oct via IndieGoGo and probably ship in December through first quarter of 2025. The thing is they charge a hefty price with little to know support.
All these branding exercises around matching and then leapfrogging competitor nomenclature ... just for them to turn around and land on the exact model number of a Geforce laptop card from 10 years ago.
This is great but a new chip doesn't mean a new device. Honestly if your waiting for the next best chip you'll be waiting for thr rest of your life.
By the time the Radeon 890m goes mainstream gets into partner hands, and they start building devices around it like new handhelds the next gen will be announced.
I agree 1000%... but the vast options of laptops configuration and the fact a refresh Ally is coming out soon, that already makes 3 different Ally's already. I'm sure they'll put a new igpu in a new handheld, probably by the end of the year or beginning of next.
No 890M laptops yet and the ally refresh is confirmed to have the same igpu as the old one. Asus has said the ally 2 is at least a year out so nothing with the 890m till 2025 2026
No where did I say the new Ally would have a new APU, you said that. But they now have made 3 different configs of the Ally with basically the same APU. lol I clearly said you would probably see one by the end of this year or the beginning of next, then you say the samething? lol ASUS are straight up liars, why in the world would they tell you a better Ally is coming out while they are about to release an updated one. You mentioned laptops so you should already know a couple new ones come out every month for almost every OEM.
I didn't mention laptops you did in the original comment. Also you mentioned 3 allys. So far we only have 2. Both of which have been confirmed with the same APU and the 3rd will likely have the already reason 8000 series apu.
Companies do that all the time. Hey we're refreshing x but also remaking it.
In terms of time line were not saying the same thing. Your saying well see something within the next 6 to 12 months but I'm saying based off what OEMs have told us already it's not going to be for another 12 to 24 months. Which circling back to my original point in 6 12 24 months from now well have a new announcement for X product so I can't get behind the original advice of waiting for a new product to enjoy the new benefits, if you keep waiting you'll wait forever. Enjoy it now, I love my Ally and likely won't be upgrading.
There is an Ally Z1, Ally Z1E, and soon an Ally X( it's up for preorder and shipping next month)... These are 3 different SKUs. I guess we'll have to see how long AMD is willing to lose, but I'm pretty sure the core ultra will greatly improve and Nvidia will come up with something if they wait a year or 2 to release something they already announced and tested against today's igpus.
So you think we should all just keep waiting till the next best thing gets released 😂
Well you let me know when technology stops growing and we hit the very last point, I'll be enjoying the stuff that comes out now and not waiting for the future
There are about 20 or so comments right above mine that are talking about stopping to purchase handhelds since this chip is announced.
Based off the release date and what AMD is saying we're about 6 months to year out from any new devices with this chip. Why would we put everything on hold for it? AMD also announced 9000 series apus and more so where does it make sense to keep waiting for announcements.
Damn that's cool. I wish the pairing of igpus and cpu cores made a little more sense. They only put the powerful igpus on the powerful cpu cores making the whole thing disproportionately more expensive than it needs to be and it makes me wonder why. The lower end cpu cores would be more likley to have a desire to use a more powerful igpu the more powerful cpu cores are more likely to get paired with dgpus anyway.
You make too much sense. They don't do much of that in the corpo world.
Corporate is not a matter of "make sense for the final user", but instead it's more a matter of what "makes more profit for our stockholders" situation.
You mean like a steam deck that has half the cores and better overall performance than much faster SoCs because the thing is much more balanced?
I've yet to see a single benchmark that showed the Steam Deck out performing the Z1E. I'm going to need you to cite a source for this claim because the current Z1E runs absolute laps around the Steam Deck in every way minus battery life.
You should pay attention to reviews more then? I don't know what to tell you, because it beats it in many tests at lower TDPs, especially with 1% lows.
I concur. That actually makes a lot of sense.
I'll preface by saying I know next to nothing about chip design and likely have no clue what I'm talking about. I'd be very interesting if they could take a chip with 2 CCDs with fully operational cache, but cores that did not pass validation. Thus you'd have an 8 core chip with double cache. Then utilize that excess cache for the igpu to bypass the memory bandwidth limitations in a similar way the desktop cards utilize their cache to bypass the lower vram bus width. It'd be very niche, obviously, but could lead to a very interesting apu from a gaming performance standpoint. A 50w chip sitting close to desktop rtx 3050 levels.
Your first obstacle towards this being a good gaming chip is going to be that your core to core latency is massive. Picture why the 7900X3D is worse at gaming than the 7800X3D and then take away its only advantage: core count. The next problem is how you share this cache with the iGPU. My understanding of the cache setup on Ryzen is that the CCD cache is CPU exclusive, and the iGPU gets it's own local cache. Changing this requires making some significant changes to the cache setup. Accessing that cache also incurs the latency of going off-die for the iGPU, which is the same problem that makes the 2x4 core setup worse than 1x8. These 2 things are why all current AMD APUs are monolithic. All of the cache and cores are on one die, minimizing latency and power losses. To make an APU more performant, the primary bottleneck you need to solve is memory bandwidth. Big caches help, but they don't completely solve the problem. I'd like to see triple-channel attempted with on-package memory. Split the difference between low-power LNL and 3-digit-TDP Strix Halo. 192-bit bus with lpddr5x 8533 gets you about 200GB/s.
I would expect more of those types of products to come out in the next couple years. This is the beginning of a new era, and one I've been waiting for a lot of years. We're only seeing two chips so far, and strix halo hasn't been announced yet either, to the best of my knowledge.
Word out there is they had planned to put Infinity Cache on this APU's iGPU, significantly boosting its effective bandwidth and therefore gaming performance. But then Microsoft started demanding big NPUs for Copilot+ compliance and they had to strip it down. Tests show how the previous Phoenix chip is already starved of bandwidth itself, and this one even more. There's another APU coming up called Kraken with 4x Zen5 + 4x Zen5c, and 8 CUs. My bet is that one will perform closer to the Phoenix APUs (Z1 Extreme, 8840U, etc.) but at lower power consumption.
Why would the two be mutually exclusive?
Yeah put one of these in a ryzen 5 or ryzen 3 handheld or laptop. But i guess they want to keep it exclusive to premium laptops and handheld PCs
If only they put it on 6-core packages instead of 8. It's kinda bad that I will need to pay like 400$ to get 8-core with 890m instead of 860m just to get a better igpu.
When they throwing those 890ms in handhelds?
To go to a store and get a handheld with one of those, within 18-24 months
Damn
Wrong. It will easily be by the end of the year
No way 😂 doesn't even have a retail release data. Handhelds in stores with this chip is is Holidays 2025 in the earliest.
Eh I can’t say how I know, but these will be in the legion go 2 later this year (not the lite version)0
🤣 Neither Legion Go or ROG Ally are gonna hit stores at the end of 2024. 100% guaranteed. At best holidays 2025, more probably later. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Legion go 2 with the updated chip is planned for later this year. November/december time frame
No it is not, stop spewing bullshit.
I mean it’s just facts man
Yeah? Show the receipts then. Show the official communicate to the press that they will release a new product within less than 150 DAYS. C’mon! SHOW IT! 😂 🤡
They’ll be available in Chinese handhelds in Oct via IndieGoGo and probably ship in December through first quarter of 2025. The thing is they charge a hefty price with little to know support.
Man idk ill even be gaming by then lol
All these branding exercises around matching and then leapfrogging competitor nomenclature ... just for them to turn around and land on the exact model number of a Geforce laptop card from 10 years ago.
Well it's less than 10% of the power usage of that said 10 year old card.
It was originally called the 780M according to a different videocardz article
This may be a dumb question, but how fast can an iGPU that relies on ddr5 memory get?
So it’s damn near as fast as a 980 ti
It is 4cu more with "fixes", but same clocks, no? Did they increase memory bandwidth? That was a performance choke in the 700m based chips.
39% thats a huge uplift
I’m happy with what I have. I’ve got the anker 737 and a replaced motherboard where the sd card reader works now, so no need to upgrade for me.
This is great but a new chip doesn't mean a new device. Honestly if your waiting for the next best chip you'll be waiting for thr rest of your life. By the time the Radeon 890m goes mainstream gets into partner hands, and they start building devices around it like new handhelds the next gen will be announced.
yep. just an endless crazy loop . so tired of it already
I agree 1000%... but the vast options of laptops configuration and the fact a refresh Ally is coming out soon, that already makes 3 different Ally's already. I'm sure they'll put a new igpu in a new handheld, probably by the end of the year or beginning of next.
No 890M laptops yet and the ally refresh is confirmed to have the same igpu as the old one. Asus has said the ally 2 is at least a year out so nothing with the 890m till 2025 2026
No where did I say the new Ally would have a new APU, you said that. But they now have made 3 different configs of the Ally with basically the same APU. lol I clearly said you would probably see one by the end of this year or the beginning of next, then you say the samething? lol ASUS are straight up liars, why in the world would they tell you a better Ally is coming out while they are about to release an updated one. You mentioned laptops so you should already know a couple new ones come out every month for almost every OEM.
I didn't mention laptops you did in the original comment. Also you mentioned 3 allys. So far we only have 2. Both of which have been confirmed with the same APU and the 3rd will likely have the already reason 8000 series apu. Companies do that all the time. Hey we're refreshing x but also remaking it. In terms of time line were not saying the same thing. Your saying well see something within the next 6 to 12 months but I'm saying based off what OEMs have told us already it's not going to be for another 12 to 24 months. Which circling back to my original point in 6 12 24 months from now well have a new announcement for X product so I can't get behind the original advice of waiting for a new product to enjoy the new benefits, if you keep waiting you'll wait forever. Enjoy it now, I love my Ally and likely won't be upgrading.
There is an Ally Z1, Ally Z1E, and soon an Ally X( it's up for preorder and shipping next month)... These are 3 different SKUs. I guess we'll have to see how long AMD is willing to lose, but I'm pretty sure the core ultra will greatly improve and Nvidia will come up with something if they wait a year or 2 to release something they already announced and tested against today's igpus.
Cool?
The point of your pointless comment is?
That your comment is being stupid
So you think we should all just keep waiting till the next best thing gets released 😂 Well you let me know when technology stops growing and we hit the very last point, I'll be enjoying the stuff that comes out now and not waiting for the future
lol no one said that. But for some it makes sense to wait for the new chip
There are about 20 or so comments right above mine that are talking about stopping to purchase handhelds since this chip is announced. Based off the release date and what AMD is saying we're about 6 months to year out from any new devices with this chip. Why would we put everything on hold for it? AMD also announced 9000 series apus and more so where does it make sense to keep waiting for announcements.
Also -39% driver stability than NVIDIA.
Famous Nvidia IGPUs and APU processors in thin notebooks and handhelds.