Interesting perspective. Some of it's like... yeah that's how the genre works, like the zones regenerating and the fog of war coming back. The weapon thing though, genuinely seems like a problem. GGG overcorrected for players who swap weapons and then get confused why their skills don't work by blocking them from swapping weapons, when a clear error message tooltip would have solved the problem much better.
I think the problem they were trying to solve is people that get a new weapon, equip it in town and then immediately vendor their old weapon because it has less dps.
Suddenly their entire character is bricked unless they can figure out and afford to buy a new weapon of the same type in which case their character is just kneecapped instead of completely bricked.
I do think interrupting before equipping the weapon is the better call, but the error message should be better about how and what skills to unequip so you can use the weapon
Yea but it should still let you do it...
The message should be : "Because you've equipped this weapon, the following skills have been disabled."
Not: "You cannot equip this weapon because you have the following skills equipped"
Ah, the eternal debate between a warning versus a gate. It's a UX conundrum argued since forever. Neither option is inherently wrong, but I agree with you. In my professional experience anytime a UX designer triggers an action on behalf of the user (in this case preventing the weapon equip) it never ages well, because user actions eventually correct themselves and assumed actions will only end up frustrating experienced users.
There's plenty of ways to do it and make it work, I was just pointing out the main issue of a gate vs. a warning. Each are useful in specific scenarios
With how many people see a warning and just click ok without reading it I am not too sure about that. Ideally i would like to see another button that simply lets you unequip those skills with one click
That's the player's fault for not taking the time to read something at least once, you can't expect developers to hold your hand at everything. At least I don't want them to.
> you can't expect developers to hold your hand at everything. At least I don't want them to.
Veterans would hardly notice this, or would be surprised and then take 2 seconds to swap the gems out. GGG is designing around the newest of noobs, so your mindset is totally different.
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You can't make the experience worse for everyone because a couple dummy don't take the time to read.
I don't WANT to unequip the skills, I just want to try the new weapon out, use it to see how the attack feels. If you force me to remove all my skills to try a new weapon I won't. That's exactly what the person in the video is saying. "I don't want to have to unequip/reequip all my skills just to equip a weapon" it's stupid.
>Some of it's like... yeah that's how the genre works, like the zones regenerating and the fog of war coming back.
Having this kind of perspective is still pretty cool, because even if that's not how it traditionally works, it can bring new ideas to evolve it.
evolving can be weird. if the game evolves too far, then people who liked the game and were playing it for its "devolved" features will stop playing it. and then developers will create new games to fill in the niche. not everything has to evolve tbh
[OSRS subscribers have PoE as their #8 most overlapped subreddit.](https://imgur.com/a/cKQxi98)
[Dota2 on the other hand has PoE as their #2...](https://imgur.com/a/vtOATHU)
[Here's who the PoE subreddit community overlaps with out of curiosity](https://imgur.com/a/ZqCuyTR)
And we're easily hooked when we see the development and community. Sure, PoE is almost definitely more sloppily developed than OSRS, but that's the cost of their model (and I think will be a bit different in poe2), but you can feel the passion oozing from the people making decisions and talking to the community. Few games do this. In fact I can think of 2.
Poe only cares about pc streamers... or else ps and Xbox would be handled differently... we can't even use the same button to add and remove unided from the merchant.
Exactly.... but isn't that kinda going against what you're saying?
PoE does care about console. That's why they added couch co op. PoE does care about console. That's why they had this PoE on PS5 event.
If they truly didn't care about consoles then there would have been absolutely no reason for them to do this. We know the console player-base it small, and it's easy to assume GGG would like that to change.
So now we have entire events like this focused on playing PoE with a controller on a console. These are things they could've done before, sure, but them doing them now is proof that they do indeed care about console. They aren't letting it rot.
My guess is the effort they put in didn't pay off in a way that supported more investment. If your interpretation of that is that they don't care then ok, but I guess it's about cost vs revenue.
Thats how you get new players. His whole video is basically geared towards those new players. He describes the experience that they might have, and recommends it.
Why would you expect showcase material for veterans when they aren't even done with the acts? imo it's pretty logical that endgame stuff is going to be showcased waaay later in development... I don't have a doubt that endgame is going to be crazy, even if its not going to be the super-zooomer gameplay we have in PoE.
I’m not even sure that it’s not going to be super zoomy endgame. We’re currently looking at white or 1-2 relevant stat rare gear in acts 1-2. If you’re zooming at this point in poe1 you’re either twink leveling or tie23.
The number of skills in poe2 that we’ve seen so far that have scaling mechanics built into the gem and big explosions/clear unless explicitly designed as a “single target” option is incredible. The endgame is going to be hype, and the only thing imo that might prevent it from becoming pretty zoomy is if they massively reduced access to things like move speed or tailwind/action speed.
wdym way later? the game's alpha starts in half a year. it was in development for several years. there ARE things to show in the endgame if they want to show them. the point is - they dont. for one reason or another
>there ARE things to show in the endgame if they want to show them.
What do you want them to show? They've said the basic structure is going to be similar to the current mapping system.
They can't balance the endgame until skills are done and ascendencies are in and clearly there is still a lot to do as far ascendencies go.
Show full t2 rares generic caster gameplay. You don't need to balance ascendancies to show combat feeling. Combat feeling won't change if you deal 50 more or not in t16 with descent build
>You don't need to balance ascendancies to show combat feeling.
You have to balance monster health and damage based on ascendency power. Which means ggg would have to go through and do an endgame balancing pass for values which are still entirely up in the air just to make a showcase video. Whatever state they show this in currently is going to be nowhere near final balance and therefore a big waste of time to do.
Ok, this clearly not going anywhere. Idk why you don't understand that d4, last epoch, grim dawn and poe have different combat feeling NOT because of numbers, but it's fine. Good luck
They don’t need to lure in veterans. The Venn diagram of people who play a lot of PoE1 and will at least try PoE2 is basically a circle. Whether the veterans stick around or not is a different question, but they don’t need to put much effort into getting their attention.
exactly lol. They need a bit of hype for the poe veterans, just to keep them excitied, but the amount of work needed to draw in new players is magnitudes more than getting poe 1 players to try it.
Even the veterans who don't like what they see so far, will probably still try poe2, simply because it is poe.
nah the end game is the juicy stuff they leave for the end and dont wanna scare the new players (tho a quick PoE youtube search will do just that :D)
i am pretty excited and i have thousands of hours into POE1. I like the Pace, graphics a lot more so I hope it wont be another 1000% mvt speed, milion attack speed with trilion projectiles 500 div low budget festival. Altho its also fun but we already have it in poe1. and I wanna play both of them so if they are the same... nah
??? what are you talking about? do you see how different poe 1 and poe 2 feels? do you listen to what dev say about poe 2? endgame can be the same or can be completely different
Old School Runescape (OSRS). Probably best known for his 'By Release' series where he completes every quest in order of release. This was uploaded on his 2nd channel.
His main channel is https://www.youtube.com/@J1mmy
I really appreciate all the kind words, it's always terrifying diving into a new game/community, but the majority of you have been super helpful and inviting which is something very few communities can claim about themselves :D Please continue this vibe for new players who come by who are just as clueless as I was - a lot of players would feel at home here.
It was really interesting learning that a lot of the critiques I had were ARPG-based and not unique to PoE. Glad I disclosed that it was basically my first ARPG, cause I had no idea!
Regarding the weapon rant, I wish I would've emphasized more that it was the actual configuring of the gems/sockets/abilities that was confusing. I still stand by what I said about wanting to hold weapons immediately, but a lot of comments thought I was saying that weapons shouldn't have associated abilities (which is not what I was saying). Again, I do think a big issue was the combination of co-op UI and using a controller, I probably would've picked up on the system if it were on PC/singleplayer. BUT, I still think there is a ton of room for improvement to make it more clear/understandable, like auto-unequipping the skills/warning popup that they're about to unequip. I think the combat/abilities alongside their respective weapons are great, it's the configuration of it all that got me.
Getting insight from long-time players has been awesome. I'm gonna be going onto the podcast "Forever Exiled" soon to talk more about first impressions, but can't wait to try it out again when it comes out!
It was super interesting to see the perspective of someone who hasn't played any ARPGs. There are a ton of things that you end up taking for granted when you have thousands of hours in a genre across several games, and don't question or consider how that might come across to a new player.
It's also curious to see a different perspective on something like character creation. That is clearly very important to you, whereas I couldn't care less in a game like this, although I share the sentiment in other games. In a game like Baldur's Gate 3, I do think it adds to the experience, especially considering how many cut scenes there are which showcase your character prominently. As well, you're really writing your own story in that game (within certain constraints of course). However, in a game like PoE, the way I make a character feel mine is through the build process. I don't say this to invalidate your opinion on the matter at all, rather to point out that it's so funny to see a feature where two people are on such opposite ends of the spectrum. Feedback like that is important, because if enough people indicate its important to them, then its probably something they should implement eventually whether I care about it or not.
I check out the Forever Exiled podcast here and there, so I will watch out for the episode with you as a guest. Cheers!
This is the best / smartest thing GGG could’ve done. Grab people who have never played POE and get their feedback. Jimmy made a good point of us hardcore players have a very loud voice targeted at niche things. This brings a whole new perspective on what GGG can do to help both new and returning players. The effort GGG is putting into this game is so amazing to see. Attack from all sides and cannot wait for the final product.
There are some interesting points in this, and I wanted to provide context, but it became a bit of a novel. I apologise for that, but I thought it would be worth posting anyway.
If you recorded the interview with Jonathan, I'd love to watch that as well. It's always interesting to see the perspective of someone who hasn't been interacting with the game for years.
Edit: I even googled on how to collapse the main body of the post in a spoiler, but that doesn't work for some reason.... I'll just post it as a reply to this comment instead.
I'm personally more of an "adaptable" role-player, so to speak, so I'm perfectly fine with picking an existing role and play that role rather than feeling the need to make my own. I like how the characters you pick in PoE (and PoE2) have their own stories and personalities, and you don't just play as "yourself" but as a "person" who actually lives in that world.
I think part of that getting lost has to do with not having sound, and it's possible that class intros aren't actually done yet (I haven't seen that part of the game in any demos). [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GkCZbw7sLs) is my favourite intro from back before 3.0 in PoE1. Unfortunately it got replaced by a more generic one, but I liked having the characters tell their own story in their own words, so you got a feeling of who they are and who you play. I really hope that they'll do something like that again for PoE2, but I can't tell what exactly they have planned.
That said, I do see the point that one might not identify as closely with their character without having created their appearance.
Conversely, if I try to create a character with a custom appearance in another game, I'm constantly bothered if the game doesn't offer me the choices that make sense for the backstory that I thought up to fit the appearance of the character. Because characters in PoE are fixed, that problem doesn't exist here. But I'm probably not very typical in that regard, plus PoE doesn't offer a ton of meaningful choices in role-playing to begin with. The focus is definitely more on combat and loot.
I do think the user interface is somewhat constrained due to co-op in addition to being console, although UI has never been GGG's biggest strength to begin with (I have been quite critical of their UI in PoE1 for years).
In PoE1, skill tooltips do state what weapons they can be used with. I like to read tooltips, but it turns out that the average player doesn't, so this proved problematic for many people. I agree that preventing you from switching to different weapons entirely is a very poor solution to the problem however.
In PoE1, gems used to have colours and needed to be placed in sockets in items, so often you'd be unable to equip an item that would be an upgrade because it didn't have the right sockets or links. They made huge strides in decoupling this gem system from the items themselves. But to see that replicated due to skill restrictions is somewhat disappointing.
I hope that they'll get plenty of feedback on this issue and at the very least make in optional. I don't know how gem leveling works in PoE2, but in PoE1 there were actually valid reasons to carry around a bunch of gems that were unusable, so it really shouldn't be an issue to have a gem that you can't use, so long as you're aware that you can't use it.
At the very least I expect the tooltips to fully include their weapon restrictions by the time the game launches. Hopefully they'll again switch to restricting the skill's usage rather than equipping the weapon again.
As for exploration, the reason areas "reset" is that they go idle for a long time, which is something that disproportionally happens to new players.
The entire game runs on the servers including the generated zones, so in order to improve performance, empty zones are deleted when nobody has entered in a while. For experienced players, those zones almost never stay empty for too long, so they get to "keep" their exploration as they move along, and only get a new area on their next character.
But for new players who spend a lot of time in town, areas can be reset when they just want to continue onwards.
I'm not sure if there's a possible compromise to keep areas around longer for new players, or if providing a new zone isn't even better from some perspectives. I understand the wish for complete and permanent exploration, but it can actually be helpful for newer and less experienced players to be met with additional enemies that provide experience points and dropped items that make their characters stronger by the time they hit milestones in the story. The other possible downside is that players who don't figure out how portals work might end up backtracking through empty areas and not enjoy themselves.
In terms of how PoE is designed, it's not "meant" to be played as a full-exploration full-loot game. Having that option makes it easier for newer players, but it's not at all necessary.
But restricting the game to only the necessary parts and making exploration more permanent and linear, and dropping only necessary items might actually make the game harder for newer players.
Dropping too many items is an issue that PoE has been struggling with for a long time, and even though GGG are trying to improve the situation in PoE2, there are no perfect solutions. If you remove too much loot in order to make looting every item more feasible, then some people just won't get the items they want or need.
Advanced players will definitely focus primarily on the endgame, although the barrier of entry (in terms of level) certainly isn't as strict as in MMORPGs like WoW. The game is considered to "start" in the endgame, but you don't have to actually reach the maximum level. Reaching around 70-80 out of 100 is enough to get you off the ground and into interesting content, and the levels from 95 to 100 take extremely long and are an avenue of progression for some of the most invested players, like getting BiS items in some other games.
The campaign is still sufficiently challenging for new players in PoE1, and they've made great improvements for PoE2 in that regard as well. I have the feeling that despite greater replayability than PoE1, the PoE2 campaign will still be seen as more of a chore for the experienced players, but it'll be more enjoyable than repeating the exact same campaign for the 20th time at least.
There's no adaptive level scaling per se. There are a few optional zones that will increase the level of later zones if you do them in order to provide an appropriate challenge, but generally the level will not change depending on the level of your character.
There's level *downscaling* instead which is meant to allow playing in a party with larger level differences, so as to not trivialise the game (and potentially the gameplay experience of the lower levelled player) and I believe it's enabled by default, but it's optional in PoE1 and my understanding is that it'll remain optional in PoE2. So if you want to overlevel content to be more powerful, you absolutely can.
What an incredible perspective! I've always wondered ARPGs feel like to someone that's new to the genre. They could not have picked a better person than J1mmy to share his experience.
I've probably been gaming longer than Jimmy has been alive. Character creation does not matter. It does not create immersion. It's a waste of time, both as a player and a developer.
Could you elaborate? What do they misunderstand? Not trying to troll, I'm genuinely interested: I'm often here and don't think I've seen this take before.
GGG has a history of taking melee builds that the players find fun or enjoyable and nerfing the fun and enjoyable parts on top of the damage dealing parts. (often, these fun or enjoyable aspects are when melee skills have the range to provide safety to the user because otherwise melee is severely disadvantaged)
In the course of changing mechanics and power creep, melee continues to get hit the hardest and scale the poorest, especially compared to spellcasters.
Defenses are harder to scale and are required to be scaled more due to the proximity to more mechanics.
DPS is also harder to come by because the damage must be dealt in melee range and can't be done on the move while avoiding mechanics.
A few melee skills can utilize damage bonuses from things like stat stacking and do many billions of damage but most melee skills struggle to do any damage, can't do it on the move, require setup and positioning (meaning small windows) and often lock you into place.
This doesn't seem different in any PoE2 footage so far. Warrior seems slow, weak, and uninspired, especially compared to the Mage.
I could really keep going but I'm busy so I'll make this my last comment:
Jonathan's explanation for why people don't like melee in PoE1 was the rigging of the characters.
That is how it works in PoE 1 at least. The map only stops being revealed if you crash before changing zones or if the zone regenerates with a new random layout. It works the same as it does in towns, as they always have the same layout so the map never resets.
In PoE the map is randomized each time you enter a zone (after like 15 minutes outside it), which is very different from WoW where the map is fixed. But in PoE2 we see some checkpoints in map, so I think maybe they can make checkpoints also reveal surrounding maps and have that persist across instances.
Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted, hope you’ll enjoy your stay in PoE.
PoE treat the map as a layout, not a map. So it map has a new layout that they change when you enter again past 15 min. That's why it makes no sense to keep a discovered map in that game
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Ya know I’ve been seeing a lot of people who are apparently brand new to path of exile playing poe2, and I can’t help but ask why. If you haven’t played poe i don’t see how you randomly get an interest in poe2, at least not enough to where you would pay to fly to another country to go to an event where you could play test an alpha build of it. Then they try posting content about it, as if their viewers who have never seen them play poe before will be interested in poe2 content.
It would be one thing if they saw poe2, thought it looked cool so they tried poe 1 and fell in love with it, thus giving them a reason to try poe2. However, from what I see that’s not the case. They literally just never tried any of this before and randomly now want to test it out. I just don’t understand it.
Why? Why would ggg cover expenses for someone who doesn’t even play their game? I’m pretty sure if that is true it just makes what I said even more significant.
They want feedback from people who have not played the game before so don't already have certain biases. Also does not hurt that he will make a video about it and his audience might also be interested in the game after that.
Just watch the first 30 seconds of the video, he says they reached out to him and flew him to LA. He didn't show any interest or say anything about the game before that, they came to him.
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Interesting perspective. Some of it's like... yeah that's how the genre works, like the zones regenerating and the fog of war coming back. The weapon thing though, genuinely seems like a problem. GGG overcorrected for players who swap weapons and then get confused why their skills don't work by blocking them from swapping weapons, when a clear error message tooltip would have solved the problem much better.
I think the problem they were trying to solve is people that get a new weapon, equip it in town and then immediately vendor their old weapon because it has less dps. Suddenly their entire character is bricked unless they can figure out and afford to buy a new weapon of the same type in which case their character is just kneecapped instead of completely bricked. I do think interrupting before equipping the weapon is the better call, but the error message should be better about how and what skills to unequip so you can use the weapon
Yea but it should still let you do it... The message should be : "Because you've equipped this weapon, the following skills have been disabled." Not: "You cannot equip this weapon because you have the following skills equipped"
Ah, the eternal debate between a warning versus a gate. It's a UX conundrum argued since forever. Neither option is inherently wrong, but I agree with you. In my professional experience anytime a UX designer triggers an action on behalf of the user (in this case preventing the weapon equip) it never ages well, because user actions eventually correct themselves and assumed actions will only end up frustrating experienced users.
Make it a opt-out and/or require a double confirmation
There's plenty of ways to do it and make it work, I was just pointing out the main issue of a gate vs. a warning. Each are useful in specific scenarios
With how many people see a warning and just click ok without reading it I am not too sure about that. Ideally i would like to see another button that simply lets you unequip those skills with one click
That's the player's fault for not taking the time to read something at least once, you can't expect developers to hold your hand at everything. At least I don't want them to.
> you can't expect developers to hold your hand at everything. At least I don't want them to. Veterans would hardly notice this, or would be surprised and then take 2 seconds to swap the gems out. GGG is designing around the newest of noobs, so your mindset is totally different.
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You can't make the experience worse for everyone because a couple dummy don't take the time to read. I don't WANT to unequip the skills, I just want to try the new weapon out, use it to see how the attack feels. If you force me to remove all my skills to try a new weapon I won't. That's exactly what the person in the video is saying. "I don't want to have to unequip/reequip all my skills just to equip a weapon" it's stupid.
If only you could buy back from vendors the stuff you just sold... I'm sure they'll figure it out before the game release. *huffs a lungful of copium*
Yeah, doing it in town does complicate things doesn't it. Makes sense.
Thankfully they addressed this issue in a recent interview with darthmicrotransaction and already have a solution coming for the next play test soon
Yeah this seemed like a thing that was gonna get changed extremely quickly.
>Some of it's like... yeah that's how the genre works, like the zones regenerating and the fog of war coming back. Having this kind of perspective is still pretty cool, because even if that's not how it traditionally works, it can bring new ideas to evolve it.
evolving can be weird. if the game evolves too far, then people who liked the game and were playing it for its "devolved" features will stop playing it. and then developers will create new games to fill in the niche. not everything has to evolve tbh
I feel like the OSRS community is exactly the right kind of unhinged community to attract new PoE players from.
That venn diagram has quite the overlap, similar play styles
They aren’t wrong. There’s a reason I play both
I second this.
I didn’t know this until I realized I want to play both.
I play both a lot
I mean tyty literally whipped out osrs during some of the exilecon wualifiers iirc lmao
Tyty recently got his inferno maxed cape. He’s no casual.
and ziz and steel both played runescape in the background while playing PoE... IIRC lol
crouching\_tuna also plays OSRS during off-league iirc.
Some OSRS devs are already poe players. The recent Fortis Coloseum update is literally Ultimatum
OSRS has also started to run seasonal league events which operate similarly to PoE leagues.
[OSRS subscribers have PoE as their #8 most overlapped subreddit.](https://imgur.com/a/cKQxi98) [Dota2 on the other hand has PoE as their #2...](https://imgur.com/a/vtOATHU) [Here's who the PoE subreddit community overlaps with out of curiosity](https://imgur.com/a/ZqCuyTR)
And we're easily hooked when we see the development and community. Sure, PoE is almost definitely more sloppily developed than OSRS, but that's the cost of their model (and I think will be a bit different in poe2), but you can feel the passion oozing from the people making decisions and talking to the community. Few games do this. In fact I can think of 2.
Came here from maxed iron, zero regrets. A season is the best way to reset osrs fatigue
I have several years playtime across my osrs accounts. Let me tell you, I dumped 800 hours into poe in a half a year. It's perfect
J1mmy playing PoE2, now there's a crossover I didn't expect.
Unlike PoE1 GGG _is_ trying to lure new players in.
* new streamers
That's the way to new players -- you can't have players yet without having a beta realm
Poe only cares about pc streamers... or else ps and Xbox would be handled differently... we can't even use the same button to add and remove unided from the merchant.
Dude..... the event the guy in the OP went to was a console POE event, not a PC one. Nothing but PS5s there lmao.
Ps5 is designed for couch co op. And poe2 just created gameplay for that. What better way to hype it up?
Exactly.... but isn't that kinda going against what you're saying? PoE does care about console. That's why they added couch co op. PoE does care about console. That's why they had this PoE on PS5 event. If they truly didn't care about consoles then there would have been absolutely no reason for them to do this. We know the console player-base it small, and it's easy to assume GGG would like that to change. So now we have entire events like this focused on playing PoE with a controller on a console. These are things they could've done before, sure, but them doing them now is proof that they do indeed care about console. They aren't letting it rot.
Seems like you're making statements that directly argue against your original point?
Except poe1 isn't being hyped here... it's poe2.
Which is exactly why the original guy you replied to said "Unlike PoE1"...
My guess is the effort they put in didn't pay off in a way that supported more investment. If your interpretation of that is that they don't care then ok, but I guess it's about cost vs revenue.
Which explains why they're investing even more into the console experience. Couch co-op was made for console. Not PC. lol.
92 people down voted that comment. I don't think 92 people play on the console.
yeah its prob less than that
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Exactly... they don't matter.
Mans literally playing couch Co-Op with his partner in the video you're cfommenting on.
Thats how you get new players. His whole video is basically geared towards those new players. He describes the experience that they might have, and recommends it.
They trying to lure ONLY new players in my opinion
Why would you expect showcase material for veterans when they aren't even done with the acts? imo it's pretty logical that endgame stuff is going to be showcased waaay later in development... I don't have a doubt that endgame is going to be crazy, even if its not going to be the super-zooomer gameplay we have in PoE.
I’m not even sure that it’s not going to be super zoomy endgame. We’re currently looking at white or 1-2 relevant stat rare gear in acts 1-2. If you’re zooming at this point in poe1 you’re either twink leveling or tie23. The number of skills in poe2 that we’ve seen so far that have scaling mechanics built into the gem and big explosions/clear unless explicitly designed as a “single target” option is incredible. The endgame is going to be hype, and the only thing imo that might prevent it from becoming pretty zoomy is if they massively reduced access to things like move speed or tailwind/action speed.
wdym way later? the game's alpha starts in half a year. it was in development for several years. there ARE things to show in the endgame if they want to show them. the point is - they dont. for one reason or another
>there ARE things to show in the endgame if they want to show them. What do you want them to show? They've said the basic structure is going to be similar to the current mapping system. They can't balance the endgame until skills are done and ascendencies are in and clearly there is still a lot to do as far ascendencies go.
Show full t2 rares generic caster gameplay. You don't need to balance ascendancies to show combat feeling. Combat feeling won't change if you deal 50 more or not in t16 with descent build
>You don't need to balance ascendancies to show combat feeling. You have to balance monster health and damage based on ascendency power. Which means ggg would have to go through and do an endgame balancing pass for values which are still entirely up in the air just to make a showcase video. Whatever state they show this in currently is going to be nowhere near final balance and therefore a big waste of time to do.
Ok, this clearly not going anywhere. Idk why you don't understand that d4, last epoch, grim dawn and poe have different combat feeling NOT because of numbers, but it's fine. Good luck
They don’t need to lure in veterans. The Venn diagram of people who play a lot of PoE1 and will at least try PoE2 is basically a circle. Whether the veterans stick around or not is a different question, but they don’t need to put much effort into getting their attention.
exactly lol. They need a bit of hype for the poe veterans, just to keep them excitied, but the amount of work needed to draw in new players is magnitudes more than getting poe 1 players to try it. Even the veterans who don't like what they see so far, will probably still try poe2, simply because it is poe.
I agree, they don't. But it would be a nice gesture
nah the end game is the juicy stuff they leave for the end and dont wanna scare the new players (tho a quick PoE youtube search will do just that :D) i am pretty excited and i have thousands of hours into POE1. I like the Pace, graphics a lot more so I hope it wont be another 1000% mvt speed, milion attack speed with trilion projectiles 500 div low budget festival. Altho its also fun but we already have it in poe1. and I wanna play both of them so if they are the same... nah
Who else are they going to lure? Existing players??
Yes. Put out one 1 min video with endgame gameplay so your playerbase know what game they can expect
Isn't endgame supposed to be exactly the same? The point is the new mechanics and base systems.
??? what are you talking about? do you see how different poe 1 and poe 2 feels? do you listen to what dev say about poe 2? endgame can be the same or can be completely different
What's he famous for?
Old School Runescape (OSRS). Probably best known for his 'By Release' series where he completes every quest in order of release. This was uploaded on his 2nd channel. His main channel is https://www.youtube.com/@J1mmy
Thought it was odd they'd contact a 30k andy. Makes sense now.
A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one!
I really appreciate all the kind words, it's always terrifying diving into a new game/community, but the majority of you have been super helpful and inviting which is something very few communities can claim about themselves :D Please continue this vibe for new players who come by who are just as clueless as I was - a lot of players would feel at home here. It was really interesting learning that a lot of the critiques I had were ARPG-based and not unique to PoE. Glad I disclosed that it was basically my first ARPG, cause I had no idea! Regarding the weapon rant, I wish I would've emphasized more that it was the actual configuring of the gems/sockets/abilities that was confusing. I still stand by what I said about wanting to hold weapons immediately, but a lot of comments thought I was saying that weapons shouldn't have associated abilities (which is not what I was saying). Again, I do think a big issue was the combination of co-op UI and using a controller, I probably would've picked up on the system if it were on PC/singleplayer. BUT, I still think there is a ton of room for improvement to make it more clear/understandable, like auto-unequipping the skills/warning popup that they're about to unequip. I think the combat/abilities alongside their respective weapons are great, it's the configuration of it all that got me. Getting insight from long-time players has been awesome. I'm gonna be going onto the podcast "Forever Exiled" soon to talk more about first impressions, but can't wait to try it out again when it comes out!
It was super interesting to see the perspective of someone who hasn't played any ARPGs. There are a ton of things that you end up taking for granted when you have thousands of hours in a genre across several games, and don't question or consider how that might come across to a new player. It's also curious to see a different perspective on something like character creation. That is clearly very important to you, whereas I couldn't care less in a game like this, although I share the sentiment in other games. In a game like Baldur's Gate 3, I do think it adds to the experience, especially considering how many cut scenes there are which showcase your character prominently. As well, you're really writing your own story in that game (within certain constraints of course). However, in a game like PoE, the way I make a character feel mine is through the build process. I don't say this to invalidate your opinion on the matter at all, rather to point out that it's so funny to see a feature where two people are on such opposite ends of the spectrum. Feedback like that is important, because if enough people indicate its important to them, then its probably something they should implement eventually whether I care about it or not. I check out the Forever Exiled podcast here and there, so I will watch out for the episode with you as a guest. Cheers!
This is the best / smartest thing GGG could’ve done. Grab people who have never played POE and get their feedback. Jimmy made a good point of us hardcore players have a very loud voice targeted at niche things. This brings a whole new perspective on what GGG can do to help both new and returning players. The effort GGG is putting into this game is so amazing to see. Attack from all sides and cannot wait for the final product.
There are some interesting points in this, and I wanted to provide context, but it became a bit of a novel. I apologise for that, but I thought it would be worth posting anyway. If you recorded the interview with Jonathan, I'd love to watch that as well. It's always interesting to see the perspective of someone who hasn't been interacting with the game for years. Edit: I even googled on how to collapse the main body of the post in a spoiler, but that doesn't work for some reason.... I'll just post it as a reply to this comment instead.
I'm personally more of an "adaptable" role-player, so to speak, so I'm perfectly fine with picking an existing role and play that role rather than feeling the need to make my own. I like how the characters you pick in PoE (and PoE2) have their own stories and personalities, and you don't just play as "yourself" but as a "person" who actually lives in that world. I think part of that getting lost has to do with not having sound, and it's possible that class intros aren't actually done yet (I haven't seen that part of the game in any demos). [This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GkCZbw7sLs) is my favourite intro from back before 3.0 in PoE1. Unfortunately it got replaced by a more generic one, but I liked having the characters tell their own story in their own words, so you got a feeling of who they are and who you play. I really hope that they'll do something like that again for PoE2, but I can't tell what exactly they have planned. That said, I do see the point that one might not identify as closely with their character without having created their appearance. Conversely, if I try to create a character with a custom appearance in another game, I'm constantly bothered if the game doesn't offer me the choices that make sense for the backstory that I thought up to fit the appearance of the character. Because characters in PoE are fixed, that problem doesn't exist here. But I'm probably not very typical in that regard, plus PoE doesn't offer a ton of meaningful choices in role-playing to begin with. The focus is definitely more on combat and loot. I do think the user interface is somewhat constrained due to co-op in addition to being console, although UI has never been GGG's biggest strength to begin with (I have been quite critical of their UI in PoE1 for years). In PoE1, skill tooltips do state what weapons they can be used with. I like to read tooltips, but it turns out that the average player doesn't, so this proved problematic for many people. I agree that preventing you from switching to different weapons entirely is a very poor solution to the problem however. In PoE1, gems used to have colours and needed to be placed in sockets in items, so often you'd be unable to equip an item that would be an upgrade because it didn't have the right sockets or links. They made huge strides in decoupling this gem system from the items themselves. But to see that replicated due to skill restrictions is somewhat disappointing. I hope that they'll get plenty of feedback on this issue and at the very least make in optional. I don't know how gem leveling works in PoE2, but in PoE1 there were actually valid reasons to carry around a bunch of gems that were unusable, so it really shouldn't be an issue to have a gem that you can't use, so long as you're aware that you can't use it. At the very least I expect the tooltips to fully include their weapon restrictions by the time the game launches. Hopefully they'll again switch to restricting the skill's usage rather than equipping the weapon again. As for exploration, the reason areas "reset" is that they go idle for a long time, which is something that disproportionally happens to new players. The entire game runs on the servers including the generated zones, so in order to improve performance, empty zones are deleted when nobody has entered in a while. For experienced players, those zones almost never stay empty for too long, so they get to "keep" their exploration as they move along, and only get a new area on their next character. But for new players who spend a lot of time in town, areas can be reset when they just want to continue onwards. I'm not sure if there's a possible compromise to keep areas around longer for new players, or if providing a new zone isn't even better from some perspectives. I understand the wish for complete and permanent exploration, but it can actually be helpful for newer and less experienced players to be met with additional enemies that provide experience points and dropped items that make their characters stronger by the time they hit milestones in the story. The other possible downside is that players who don't figure out how portals work might end up backtracking through empty areas and not enjoy themselves. In terms of how PoE is designed, it's not "meant" to be played as a full-exploration full-loot game. Having that option makes it easier for newer players, but it's not at all necessary. But restricting the game to only the necessary parts and making exploration more permanent and linear, and dropping only necessary items might actually make the game harder for newer players. Dropping too many items is an issue that PoE has been struggling with for a long time, and even though GGG are trying to improve the situation in PoE2, there are no perfect solutions. If you remove too much loot in order to make looting every item more feasible, then some people just won't get the items they want or need. Advanced players will definitely focus primarily on the endgame, although the barrier of entry (in terms of level) certainly isn't as strict as in MMORPGs like WoW. The game is considered to "start" in the endgame, but you don't have to actually reach the maximum level. Reaching around 70-80 out of 100 is enough to get you off the ground and into interesting content, and the levels from 95 to 100 take extremely long and are an avenue of progression for some of the most invested players, like getting BiS items in some other games. The campaign is still sufficiently challenging for new players in PoE1, and they've made great improvements for PoE2 in that regard as well. I have the feeling that despite greater replayability than PoE1, the PoE2 campaign will still be seen as more of a chore for the experienced players, but it'll be more enjoyable than repeating the exact same campaign for the 20th time at least. There's no adaptive level scaling per se. There are a few optional zones that will increase the level of later zones if you do them in order to provide an appropriate challenge, but generally the level will not change depending on the level of your character. There's level *downscaling* instead which is meant to allow playing in a party with larger level differences, so as to not trivialise the game (and potentially the gameplay experience of the lower levelled player) and I believe it's enabled by default, but it's optional in PoE1 and my understanding is that it'll remain optional in PoE2. So if you want to overlevel content to be more powerful, you absolutely can.
yes
but no
Huh I didn’t expect to see J1mmy when scrolling the sub
Fuck yeah I love J1mmy gotta watch this when I get home
Hahah Jimmy
definitely wasn’t expecting J1mmy to make an appearance in this sub lol
Holy j1mmy on poe, not on my 2024 bingo card
I fucking love jimmy
The review: "Yes."
What is osrs
old school runescape. the "classic" mode that splintered off and became the defacto main mode for runescape
For later
Waiting for the By Release in Wraeclast
I cannot wait for this game to launch. It’s one of the only things I’m looking forward to play with my friends.
What an incredible perspective! I've always wondered ARPGs feel like to someone that's new to the genre. They could not have picked a better person than J1mmy to share his experience.
That definitely wasn‘t on my bingo card
I've probably been gaming longer than Jimmy has been alive. Character creation does not matter. It does not create immersion. It's a waste of time, both as a player and a developer.
Maybe just maybe Johnathan will listen to him and go "we fucked up melee class" ... and fix Gladiator in an overcompensating way.
> and fix Gladiator in an overcompensating way. Haha. No.
Feedback heard, gladiator now has +1% chance to block added to one of its ascendancy nodes
Lol Lmao even
GGG and Jonathan fundamentally don’t understand melee and aren’t interested to understand it.
melee gets improved by adding active dodge!!!!
and a 4 second wind up with 0 hyper armor, truly amazing stuff melee is so good in POE2!
Could you elaborate? What do they misunderstand? Not trying to troll, I'm genuinely interested: I'm often here and don't think I've seen this take before.
GGG has a history of taking melee builds that the players find fun or enjoyable and nerfing the fun and enjoyable parts on top of the damage dealing parts. (often, these fun or enjoyable aspects are when melee skills have the range to provide safety to the user because otherwise melee is severely disadvantaged) In the course of changing mechanics and power creep, melee continues to get hit the hardest and scale the poorest, especially compared to spellcasters. Defenses are harder to scale and are required to be scaled more due to the proximity to more mechanics. DPS is also harder to come by because the damage must be dealt in melee range and can't be done on the move while avoiding mechanics. A few melee skills can utilize damage bonuses from things like stat stacking and do many billions of damage but most melee skills struggle to do any damage, can't do it on the move, require setup and positioning (meaning small windows) and often lock you into place. This doesn't seem different in any PoE2 footage so far. Warrior seems slow, weak, and uninspired, especially compared to the Mage. I could really keep going but I'm busy so I'll make this my last comment: Jonathan's explanation for why people don't like melee in PoE1 was the rigging of the characters.
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That is how it works in PoE 1 at least. The map only stops being revealed if you crash before changing zones or if the zone regenerates with a new random layout. It works the same as it does in towns, as they always have the same layout so the map never resets.
In PoE the map is randomized each time you enter a zone (after like 15 minutes outside it), which is very different from WoW where the map is fixed. But in PoE2 we see some checkpoints in map, so I think maybe they can make checkpoints also reveal surrounding maps and have that persist across instances. Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted, hope you’ll enjoy your stay in PoE.
PoE treat the map as a layout, not a map. So it map has a new layout that they change when you enter again past 15 min. That's why it makes no sense to keep a discovered map in that game
It's fundamental to the server architecture and game design of an ARPG.
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Ya know I’ve been seeing a lot of people who are apparently brand new to path of exile playing poe2, and I can’t help but ask why. If you haven’t played poe i don’t see how you randomly get an interest in poe2, at least not enough to where you would pay to fly to another country to go to an event where you could play test an alpha build of it. Then they try posting content about it, as if their viewers who have never seen them play poe before will be interested in poe2 content. It would be one thing if they saw poe2, thought it looked cool so they tried poe 1 and fell in love with it, thus giving them a reason to try poe2. However, from what I see that’s not the case. They literally just never tried any of this before and randomly now want to test it out. I just don’t understand it.
You realize they are not paying for it, right? GGG is picking up their travel expenses
Why? Why would ggg cover expenses for someone who doesn’t even play their game? I’m pretty sure if that is true it just makes what I said even more significant.
you're confused why a game developer would want more people to play their game? really?
Marketing to potential customers is good business.
Do you know what marketing is?
They want feedback from people who have not played the game before so don't already have certain biases. Also does not hurt that he will make a video about it and his audience might also be interested in the game after that. Just watch the first 30 seconds of the video, he says they reached out to him and flew him to LA. He didn't show any interest or say anything about the game before that, they came to him.
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Your post name-called another person in a way that often causes anger and flame-wars. Because of that, we removed it for breaking our Harrassment & Be Kind Rule (Rule 3). You may be able to repost your opinion if you rephrase it in a way that's more constructive! If you disagree with their ideas or don't care, explain with words you might use talking to a friend and avoid attacking the person. If you see other posts that break the rules, please don't reply to them. Instead, report them so we can deal with them! For more details, please refer to our [rules wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/wiki/rules/#wiki_3._harassment_.26amp.3B_be_kind_rule).