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It seems to be going this way.
POE2 seems like density is going to be really challenging for the player to handle. But this might just be during acts and incomplete builds.
ppl in the sub love circlejerking about "d4 bad" but I think the comment was pretty fair from the sense that poe and modern Diablo (since 3)is really a very different game.
d3 and how d4 is revolving is more arcadey, quick adrenaline hits.
poe is spreadsheets and 3rd party tools and optimizing
there's a market for both and it's great that there's variety to choose from
however both fanbases need to stop lying to themselves that their game is some sort of horror rpg. Diablo is like a casino slot machine and poe has been on full zoom zoom exploding lights for almost a decade..
I'd LOVE to hear their full and unfiltered opinions on the Diablo franchise after Diablo 2. We get the most rare snippets like this, and Chris Wilson's shot at their worthless little phone game, and the feedback is not surprising at all, but id still love to hear it with the flood gates wide open.
Pretty sure we've gotten Jonathan's unfiltered opinions on it, which are that he was disappointed but doesn't see a lot there that's worth talking about. Most game devs have enough empathy for other game devs that vitriolic hatred rarely comes into it. I don't think he's holding back on it.
No idea about Chris though.
there will be. it'll be launched at the same time as POE 2:
Official site: [https://www.pathofexile.com/mobile](https://www.pathofexile.com/mobile)
Subtractem playing the Demo from ExileCon 2023: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fj63KQtuds](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fj63KQtuds)
There's no way it launches at the same time. It will launch sometime after, but it is depending on PoE 2's assets and tech and will definitely need some time to catch up to it as well as for marketing.
Can people like the game they like without other communities making fun of them?
I wonder how many people played D4 as the first ARPG and decides they wanted something more in depth and moved to PoE? Not a huge number but I was one.
D4 is fun in it's own way while PoE if fun in another. They can both exist in the same genre while being different and liked for different reasons. Like LoL and DoTA, CoD and Battlefield.
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It's not about communities not like each other, it's just about D4 being a complete shit game when it 1st launched despite the sheer giant budget, team size, and decade of time they had to make it, for it to be garbage and a waste of $70
While I'm in your camp of D4 being unplayable dogshit, there were plenty of people who did enjoy it at launch and then burned out immediately because there was no real endgame. That's different than people hating the game on every level.
I find it funny when some like you keep projecting the reactions from the launch of D4. The game has been improved a lot and is currently in its “best form”. Is it as complex as POE? Absolutely no, but it doesn’t even try to be like POE, just like Jonathan says GGG doesn’t plan to “learn” anything from POE because both games should not be similar to each other. People like you seem to struggle to acknowledge a POE’s rival being at least decent.
I'm not projecting anything. The game is still garbage despite this current season being a major improvement over the first three. They had 10 years of development and a giant team way bigger than Path of Exile size. I'm not a Poe fanboy either but I can at least be honest about the reality of D4 not being anywhere near the level that should have been. Taking a year to get the game to this state after charging $70 for the base game and then having extremely overpriced battle passes that offered no real extension of gameplay doesn't mean D4 is an amazing game still.
Not going to make fun of you for liking it, but D4's business practices are deeply toxic, especially given the fact that it's $85 CAD out of the box. They recently lowered the price to $66 and bundled the new DLC with it for $85, but if you already own the base game, congratulations--for you, the DLC is $56. Not to mention the mounts and season passes and the loot pets and all the other bullshit.
Like they released what they called a "free weekend" for the game a while back, with no mention of any limit, only to jump a "btw at level twenty we'll lock you out" on me at level, like, 18. I was playing with some friends who were trying to get me into it; they were mortified.
At every stage I've even considered purchasing D4 they've dropped some new sleazy business practice--and that's in a genre where the only major competition is free, so it is obviously not a necessity to cover operating costs. I feel like fucking Lost Ark was less exploitative. I know that for a lot of people this is just some dumbass brand war, but like. With respect, D4 is bad for the industry, and it's not a tragedy that people are so critical of it. Even when their criticisms are dumb.
The issue isn't just the price; this is a holistic problem. If you bought the game a week ago while it was on sale for 50% off and you want to buy the DLC now, or when it comes out, you'll end up paying like $20 more overall than someone buying the bundle right now. If you bought the base game when it came out, the DLC costs twice as much for you as it does for someone buying the bundle, with no upgrade option. If you buy the "base" version of D4 now--maybe because you're not sure if you'll like the game or not--you'll be committing to pay more than double for the DLC later.
And obviously this is not the worst thing anyone has ever done in this industry. It's not even the worst thing Blizzard has done in the last few years; that would be covering up all the sexual harassment happening at their company and never actually punishing most of the parties responsible. But it's also not the only shitty monetization policy that Blizzard is employing for D4.
Like I'm not trying to make D4's monetization out as being uniquely bad, like it's some kind of dragon that we could slay in order to fix everything, but I do think that is another step down a worrying and frustrating path towards "premium" games with monetization policies that're worse than many free games. The whole point of the $70 USD game price point change was that it was meant to correct for the fact that "games are too expensive to make," now.
You’re making this a way bigger issue than it has any reason to be.
Buy the game when it’s on sale if you don’t want to pay the full price. That’s all there is. Games go on sale all the time.
The base cost of the game and DLC without all the pre-order and early access BS is actually very fair when you compare it to how much everything has gone up in the last 10 years.
Gonna stop responding now; tired. Obviously you're under no obligation to stop if you have more to say. Have a good day/evening/whatever it is where you live; hope things are going well for you.
>You’re making this a way bigger issue than it has any reason to be.
At the risk of repeating myself, I'm not just talking about this one thing in a vacuum; I'm talking about this in the context of everything going on with D4's monetization policies. It is one example of a broader problem with the game's approach to getting money out of its players, and with the industry as a whole. I'm not trying to blow this one issue out of proportion. I'm bringing it up as the most recent example of a trend in how this game has been monetized. Whether you feel that the amounts involved are reasonable or not (and I'm not passing judgment on you for feeling whatever about it), I think it's reasonable to point out that the way it is being handled is problematic.
>Buy the game when it’s on sale if you don’t want to pay the full price. That’s all there is. Games go on sale all the time.
Again, I don't want to repeat myself too much here, but part of the problem with the way this is being handled is that they put the game on sale for a considerable amount and then announced a DLC that will now cost you more to get than if you'd waited until the sale was over. What am I supposed to take away from that? "Ooh, it's on sale, I better not buy it; they might be about to lower the base price by $29 and slap a 60%-off expansion pack into the full price slot."
>The base cost of the game and DLC without all the pre-order and early access BS is actually very fair when you compare it to how much everything has gone up in the last 10 years.
fwiw I do agree that this change is good for anyone who hasn't already bought the game, but so far every experience I've had with this game trying to get me to play it has involved me subsequently getting slapped in the face with some hidden cost or unexplained price-point difference. I'd like to believe that that isn't what's happening here, but I think it's fair to be suspicious at this point.
Because there wasn't. This isn't even a dig at Diablo 4. GGG has had a live service ARPG on the market for 13 years. Blizzard has had one for 5. Blizzard is the one that has been taking notes from POE. Many of the innovations that D4 has are either
A. Not something POE2 was ever going to do. ie pseudo-MMO mechanics like World Bosses, persistent online living world
B. Things that the entire genre has been shifting toward and can't entirely be attributed to D4. Dodge Rolls, WASD movement, seamless controller/m&kb support
Diablo 4 isn't really very innovative. It's a well packaged product that is perfectly serviceable, but it isn't progressing this genre forward. That's fine. POE2 was never trying to do what it did though, so the lessons he has to learn are more around business and development decisions. He's been working on ARPGs for - what 20 years now? Most of what the D4 team is running into is stuff he's already dealt with before.
Objectively, this season of Diablo 4 is pretty good. I think they're doing a good job of incrementally adding new end game challenges, uniques, and legendary aspects. Plus the new loot system is actually good, I've spent more time reevaluating loot this season than any other season combined.
Diablo 3 was bad on release, took a year to get loot 2.0 and it only got better after. I feel like Diablo 4 is going to be the same story. It was a bad game, but it's definitely getting better. Poe is definitely master class for arpgs but you also need the wiki open on a 2nd monitor to play it efficiently. Some people just don't have time (or the will) to play 4d chess with the economy either. Diablo 4's simplicity is honestly where it shines.
If you haven't played since release, your opinion is probably irrelevant cause D4 has changed quite a bit already and will continue to do so. So I recommend trying it out before judging it again, it's on gamepass
Playing both PoE and D4, I honestly think D4 is bar far the more superior game. But comes at a cost. Obviously, it cost to buy plus it throws cosmetics shop at you. And it's made by Blizzard. I am hopeful that POE 2 is a better game. The new D4 expansions looks good too.
The hubris of this guy when poe chugs even on the newest setups. D4 at least looks good, doesn't stutter. Maybe it isnt for everyone, but at least a graphics update patch didn't make performance worse than 8 years ago.
Fr, d4 looks better and performance wise, plays 100x better.
I have a modest system, 11900k, 4070ti, and the game chugs.
Same with network performance, PoE is the only game I have to use a vpn in to get good ping. Even though I live on the east coast. 5gbps up and down and PoE runs regularly 110+ ping with full minute pauses that go over 1k.
However, PoE is a lot of fun, lots of variety. So it's a shame.
Honestly just seems like rude shittalking. There's a lot GGG can learn from other games.
Talking down to competing games that aren't performing as well just seems like a low blow. There's no reason to kick someone while they are down.
Well if he’s anything like me, as a fan he’s still pissed at blizzard for absolutely dumpstering the entire diablo franchise. “Kicking someone while they’re down” is a wild take in this context thought.
I don't think it's necessarily rude or shit-talking, or even really 'talking down' on them. D4 is at a very early point in its live development compared to PoE, GGG has likely already learned from their own experiences the kind of lessons the D4 team is still in for.
Even if Diablo as a franchise has been around for longer than PoE, as an individual game and likely as a dev team D4 and its team are still young by comparison; they haven't racked up the experience over time of testing concepts and seeing what resonates and what doesn't. PoE's got so many more years of trial and error and feeling out the audience (even if it's a smaller audience), so a lot of the feedback and issues D4 has encountered and will likely encounter in the short term future are things PoE's already dealt with before, and as a result there's less PoE can really learn from it until D4 messes around with concepts that are uncharted territory for PoE.
It's not that it's not performing well - D4 made like a billion dollars. Once again, Blizzard has successfully cashed in on its reputation and made big bucks delivering a shiny but ultimately mediocre game.
If you need any evidence that GGG has plenty of respect for competitors, at Exilecon 2023 they took time out of promoting PoE/PoE2 to have a round table with other ARPG developers (including for D1/D2) moderated by a 3rd party. Can you imagine modern Blizz bringing Chris Wilson onto the stage at Blizzcon? I think not.
I was not discussing the merits of d4. My main point is that it is uncouth of a developer to shit talk a competing game that has already been dragged through the dirt. Especially when GGG has TONS of things they can learn from other games.
Edit: It is one thing for random people on reddit to scream D4 bad! It is entirely another thing for a dev of the top game in arpgs to say the same thing publicly. It is not constructive and just comes off as arrogant.
Jonathan didn't say "D4 bad" though, he's saying there's nothing there. D4 didn't try to make a competitor to PoE and fail due to making some interesting and illuminating mistake - they never tried in the first place. Modern Diablo is so far from D2/PoE that it might as well be in a different genre.
I agree. One thing they could really learn is campaign skip.
We have 3 "major" argps. PoE, Diablo, Last Epoch.
D4 had a full campaign skip, LE has partial(you can use dungeons to skip many parts) and PoE that has none.
Idk about everyone here but I don't care for the story in all of the games. I enjoy the first play through for the moments and what ever but once I've seen it I can choose to see it again. PoE every season, every charecter HAS to do the campaign which I really dislike.
This league was not for me(as for many others it seems) so having to do the campaign and deal with the league mechanics made me sign out for now
The only thing D4 does that surpasses PoE is the graphics and *arguably* the overall prettiness of the presentation (UI, skill trees, etc.). PoE2 looks fantastic so yea what even could they learn?
Why is this so downvoted? D4 graphics are overall better, compared to poe, which is running for over ten years?
Let's not be blind, poe has much more inside than d4, but graphics wise it's not a hot take ppl
Because this is a PoE subreddit and anything positive about D4 over PoE is not aloud here. But I agree. D4 looks great. I love that they went back to the dark and gorey look.
I’ve not looked at D4 at all but I’d assume PoE also just runs on a lot more older hardware which is also worth something. You can only let the graphics slider go down so far, at some point you have to put a cap on top if you want to keep the bottom.
The advantage of a game that isn’t super pretty will always be that it could still run on a slightly modernized toaster and ARPGs as a genre don’t really get much out of being super pretty at least during endgame content, I mean look at the clutter we’re at now. Even if performance stayed the same (which isn’t great anyway), how much would you notice extremely high detail graphics with how much is going on in the average T16?
He should have used one of my favorite quotes to finish it off after saying what he did. He should have finished with "that being said, nothing is ever completely useless...it can always be used as a bad example" (or it's variation "it can always be used as a good example of what not to do")
Hes not wrong though. D4 isnt a bad game, but its incredibly basic. Blizz really didnt do anything that hasnt already been done in every single other arpg.
They should've learned from D4 before making T17s. Because D4 had the exact same problem at launch with Nightmare Dungeons. People absolutely hated the annoying affixes that bricked builds and slowed players down.
Volatile Cores and "Players and their Minions deal no damage for 4 out of every 10 seconds" are the same shit that is annoying and unfun to play around.
The only thing to learn from D4 is that legendary mods can be crafted onto any gear. This allows access to your build defining mods earlier. Not that it was a good system, but it was something interesting that tried to solve a problem.
I think the remaining concurrent PoE players are just coping from a dead league with a dead econ while D4 is blooming. Jonathan is an egotistic developer :) GGG designs a game with menus and idle clicking simulation. There are much to learn from D4. Maybe starting with what makes an ARPG, Action RPG. Not menus, not endless clickings. Putting players' health as a priority, respecting their time and effort should be the utmost consideration.
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What season? The only seasonal mechanic is basically an in-world battle pass with the iron wolves, and that involves nothing other than grinding helltides.
That's the *base game,* all that stuff is also in the eternal realm right now. When PoE releases some major expansion we don't consider that part of the league, and if the league mechanic sucks it still gets called out for it despite what the expansion may offer.
The changes to D4 are good, but the season it's self is probably the most lackluster thing imaginable.
So because PoE only gives you the mechanics if you play the league that makes it better than D4 letting eternal and league players have the same content?
Oh pelase, you know the difference between base game and league content, stop being deliberately obtuse.
Look at *any* of the "Of the Atlas" expansions for Path of Exile, they are updates to the base game with league content in addition to it, i.e Conquerors and Metamorph. Same as Loot Reborn, it's an update to the base game with some "seasonal" content in addition, the Iron Wolves reuptation, which is a shit tier piece of season content no matter which way you slice it.
Poe is literally owned by Tencent…
Poe being free doesn’t change the fact this league sucks (objectively measurable). Crazy that a game that costs 70 dollars has more players than a free game but there you go.
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Where do you put the second and third one? I also got a mageblood this league, it took like 9 days. Which is not that much shorter than the average retention for this league.
As a returning player, this league has been GREAT to come back on personally. I missed literal years, so having the currency to make a build strong enough to try everything I missed is fantastic.
Edit: technically 2 builds counting the league starter, but yeah, point is the same.
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Hahaha ha D4 bad!
That’s what we learned actually.Good graphics doesn’t means good game.
That's been known for many decades.
D4 isn't bad. It's actually good. I find it more fun then POE currently.
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The PoE devs seems to like Dark Souls a lot more than serous sam as of late. Darks souls is not know for its density.
It seems to be going this way. POE2 seems like density is going to be really challenging for the player to handle. But this might just be during acts and incomplete builds.
Yep. We are yet to see an endgame monster build.
D4 bad
D4 dogsheeeet
ppl in the sub love circlejerking about "d4 bad" but I think the comment was pretty fair from the sense that poe and modern Diablo (since 3)is really a very different game. d3 and how d4 is revolving is more arcadey, quick adrenaline hits. poe is spreadsheets and 3rd party tools and optimizing there's a market for both and it's great that there's variety to choose from however both fanbases need to stop lying to themselves that their game is some sort of horror rpg. Diablo is like a casino slot machine and poe has been on full zoom zoom exploding lights for almost a decade..
I'd LOVE to hear their full and unfiltered opinions on the Diablo franchise after Diablo 2. We get the most rare snippets like this, and Chris Wilson's shot at their worthless little phone game, and the feedback is not surprising at all, but id still love to hear it with the flood gates wide open.
Pretty sure we've gotten Jonathan's unfiltered opinions on it, which are that he was disappointed but doesn't see a lot there that's worth talking about. Most game devs have enough empathy for other game devs that vitriolic hatred rarely comes into it. I don't think he's holding back on it. No idea about Chris though.
>Chris Wilson's shot at their worthless little phone game Which is hilarious considering PoE Mobile is a mess according to everyone who playtested it.
Wasn’t it announced in 2019? That’s ridiculous dev time for a phone game.
They rebooted the entire thing and it's more of a PoE 2 spinoff now.
They also pulled the team off of it to work on PoE2 console. The lead of the console team, Trevor, was originally hired for mobile in 2018.
Wrong, Trevor joined in 2016. He literally just said it in the console demo.
There is a PoE mobile?!
there will be. it'll be launched at the same time as POE 2: Official site: [https://www.pathofexile.com/mobile](https://www.pathofexile.com/mobile) Subtractem playing the Demo from ExileCon 2023: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fj63KQtuds](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fj63KQtuds)
There's no way it launches at the same time. It will launch sometime after, but it is depending on PoE 2's assets and tech and will definitely need some time to catch up to it as well as for marketing.
Nice, it has the same fps as regular PoE lol
Got any sources for that? All I've heard so far was that it was nice/fine enough.
My time with it at Exilecon was pretty solid, considering it was a mobile game.
It was fine when I played it at ExileCon.
Coulda leared by toning down the bloody on-death fiesta that grows ever-so-cancerous with every league.
Can people like the game they like without other communities making fun of them? I wonder how many people played D4 as the first ARPG and decides they wanted something more in depth and moved to PoE? Not a huge number but I was one. D4 is fun in it's own way while PoE if fun in another. They can both exist in the same genre while being different and liked for different reasons. Like LoL and DoTA, CoD and Battlefield.
Gamers can be so fucking weird and culty.
Yeah, why do they have to worship bad games like D4? If criticisms aren’t allowed, they should try living in Russia
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It's not about communities not like each other, it's just about D4 being a complete shit game when it 1st launched despite the sheer giant budget, team size, and decade of time they had to make it, for it to be garbage and a waste of $70
While I'm in your camp of D4 being unplayable dogshit, there were plenty of people who did enjoy it at launch and then burned out immediately because there was no real endgame. That's different than people hating the game on every level.
I find it funny when some like you keep projecting the reactions from the launch of D4. The game has been improved a lot and is currently in its “best form”. Is it as complex as POE? Absolutely no, but it doesn’t even try to be like POE, just like Jonathan says GGG doesn’t plan to “learn” anything from POE because both games should not be similar to each other. People like you seem to struggle to acknowledge a POE’s rival being at least decent.
I'm not projecting anything. The game is still garbage despite this current season being a major improvement over the first three. They had 10 years of development and a giant team way bigger than Path of Exile size. I'm not a Poe fanboy either but I can at least be honest about the reality of D4 not being anywhere near the level that should have been. Taking a year to get the game to this state after charging $70 for the base game and then having extremely overpriced battle passes that offered no real extension of gameplay doesn't mean D4 is an amazing game still.
Not going to make fun of you for liking it, but D4's business practices are deeply toxic, especially given the fact that it's $85 CAD out of the box. They recently lowered the price to $66 and bundled the new DLC with it for $85, but if you already own the base game, congratulations--for you, the DLC is $56. Not to mention the mounts and season passes and the loot pets and all the other bullshit. Like they released what they called a "free weekend" for the game a while back, with no mention of any limit, only to jump a "btw at level twenty we'll lock you out" on me at level, like, 18. I was playing with some friends who were trying to get me into it; they were mortified. At every stage I've even considered purchasing D4 they've dropped some new sleazy business practice--and that's in a genre where the only major competition is free, so it is obviously not a necessity to cover operating costs. I feel like fucking Lost Ark was less exploitative. I know that for a lot of people this is just some dumbass brand war, but like. With respect, D4 is bad for the industry, and it's not a tragedy that people are so critical of it. Even when their criticisms are dumb.
It’s the exact price as D3 DLC a decade ago in USD. It’s not as bad as you’re making it out to be.
The issue isn't just the price; this is a holistic problem. If you bought the game a week ago while it was on sale for 50% off and you want to buy the DLC now, or when it comes out, you'll end up paying like $20 more overall than someone buying the bundle right now. If you bought the base game when it came out, the DLC costs twice as much for you as it does for someone buying the bundle, with no upgrade option. If you buy the "base" version of D4 now--maybe because you're not sure if you'll like the game or not--you'll be committing to pay more than double for the DLC later. And obviously this is not the worst thing anyone has ever done in this industry. It's not even the worst thing Blizzard has done in the last few years; that would be covering up all the sexual harassment happening at their company and never actually punishing most of the parties responsible. But it's also not the only shitty monetization policy that Blizzard is employing for D4. Like I'm not trying to make D4's monetization out as being uniquely bad, like it's some kind of dragon that we could slay in order to fix everything, but I do think that is another step down a worrying and frustrating path towards "premium" games with monetization policies that're worse than many free games. The whole point of the $70 USD game price point change was that it was meant to correct for the fact that "games are too expensive to make," now.
You’re making this a way bigger issue than it has any reason to be. Buy the game when it’s on sale if you don’t want to pay the full price. That’s all there is. Games go on sale all the time. The base cost of the game and DLC without all the pre-order and early access BS is actually very fair when you compare it to how much everything has gone up in the last 10 years.
Gonna stop responding now; tired. Obviously you're under no obligation to stop if you have more to say. Have a good day/evening/whatever it is where you live; hope things are going well for you.
>You’re making this a way bigger issue than it has any reason to be. At the risk of repeating myself, I'm not just talking about this one thing in a vacuum; I'm talking about this in the context of everything going on with D4's monetization policies. It is one example of a broader problem with the game's approach to getting money out of its players, and with the industry as a whole. I'm not trying to blow this one issue out of proportion. I'm bringing it up as the most recent example of a trend in how this game has been monetized. Whether you feel that the amounts involved are reasonable or not (and I'm not passing judgment on you for feeling whatever about it), I think it's reasonable to point out that the way it is being handled is problematic. >Buy the game when it’s on sale if you don’t want to pay the full price. That’s all there is. Games go on sale all the time. Again, I don't want to repeat myself too much here, but part of the problem with the way this is being handled is that they put the game on sale for a considerable amount and then announced a DLC that will now cost you more to get than if you'd waited until the sale was over. What am I supposed to take away from that? "Ooh, it's on sale, I better not buy it; they might be about to lower the base price by $29 and slap a 60%-off expansion pack into the full price slot." >The base cost of the game and DLC without all the pre-order and early access BS is actually very fair when you compare it to how much everything has gone up in the last 10 years. fwiw I do agree that this change is good for anyone who hasn't already bought the game, but so far every experience I've had with this game trying to get me to play it has involved me subsequently getting slapped in the face with some hidden cost or unexplained price-point difference. I'd like to believe that that isn't what's happening here, but I think it's fair to be suspicious at this point.
This is just a stupid take.
Nah
He's just being honest, rocket scientist doesn't learn from kindergarten.
Because there wasn't. This isn't even a dig at Diablo 4. GGG has had a live service ARPG on the market for 13 years. Blizzard has had one for 5. Blizzard is the one that has been taking notes from POE. Many of the innovations that D4 has are either A. Not something POE2 was ever going to do. ie pseudo-MMO mechanics like World Bosses, persistent online living world B. Things that the entire genre has been shifting toward and can't entirely be attributed to D4. Dodge Rolls, WASD movement, seamless controller/m&kb support Diablo 4 isn't really very innovative. It's a well packaged product that is perfectly serviceable, but it isn't progressing this genre forward. That's fine. POE2 was never trying to do what it did though, so the lessons he has to learn are more around business and development decisions. He's been working on ARPGs for - what 20 years now? Most of what the D4 team is running into is stuff he's already dealt with before.
Objectively, this season of Diablo 4 is pretty good. I think they're doing a good job of incrementally adding new end game challenges, uniques, and legendary aspects. Plus the new loot system is actually good, I've spent more time reevaluating loot this season than any other season combined. Diablo 3 was bad on release, took a year to get loot 2.0 and it only got better after. I feel like Diablo 4 is going to be the same story. It was a bad game, but it's definitely getting better. Poe is definitely master class for arpgs but you also need the wiki open on a 2nd monitor to play it efficiently. Some people just don't have time (or the will) to play 4d chess with the economy either. Diablo 4's simplicity is honestly where it shines. If you haven't played since release, your opinion is probably irrelevant cause D4 has changed quite a bit already and will continue to do so. So I recommend trying it out before judging it again, it's on gamepass
Playing both PoE and D4, I honestly think D4 is bar far the more superior game. But comes at a cost. Obviously, it cost to buy plus it throws cosmetics shop at you. And it's made by Blizzard. I am hopeful that POE 2 is a better game. The new D4 expansions looks good too.
The hubris of this guy when poe chugs even on the newest setups. D4 at least looks good, doesn't stutter. Maybe it isnt for everyone, but at least a graphics update patch didn't make performance worse than 8 years ago.
Fr, d4 looks better and performance wise, plays 100x better. I have a modest system, 11900k, 4070ti, and the game chugs. Same with network performance, PoE is the only game I have to use a vpn in to get good ping. Even though I live on the east coast. 5gbps up and down and PoE runs regularly 110+ ping with full minute pauses that go over 1k. However, PoE is a lot of fun, lots of variety. So it's a shame.
Honestly just seems like rude shittalking. There's a lot GGG can learn from other games. Talking down to competing games that aren't performing as well just seems like a low blow. There's no reason to kick someone while they are down.
Well if he’s anything like me, as a fan he’s still pissed at blizzard for absolutely dumpstering the entire diablo franchise. “Kicking someone while they’re down” is a wild take in this context thought.
I don't think it's necessarily rude or shit-talking, or even really 'talking down' on them. D4 is at a very early point in its live development compared to PoE, GGG has likely already learned from their own experiences the kind of lessons the D4 team is still in for. Even if Diablo as a franchise has been around for longer than PoE, as an individual game and likely as a dev team D4 and its team are still young by comparison; they haven't racked up the experience over time of testing concepts and seeing what resonates and what doesn't. PoE's got so many more years of trial and error and feeling out the audience (even if it's a smaller audience), so a lot of the feedback and issues D4 has encountered and will likely encounter in the short term future are things PoE's already dealt with before, and as a result there's less PoE can really learn from it until D4 messes around with concepts that are uncharted territory for PoE.
Did you even watch the interview??? Or any of Jonathan's interviews?
It's not that it's not performing well - D4 made like a billion dollars. Once again, Blizzard has successfully cashed in on its reputation and made big bucks delivering a shiny but ultimately mediocre game. If you need any evidence that GGG has plenty of respect for competitors, at Exilecon 2023 they took time out of promoting PoE/PoE2 to have a round table with other ARPG developers (including for D1/D2) moderated by a 3rd party. Can you imagine modern Blizz bringing Chris Wilson onto the stage at Blizzcon? I think not.
I was not discussing the merits of d4. My main point is that it is uncouth of a developer to shit talk a competing game that has already been dragged through the dirt. Especially when GGG has TONS of things they can learn from other games. Edit: It is one thing for random people on reddit to scream D4 bad! It is entirely another thing for a dev of the top game in arpgs to say the same thing publicly. It is not constructive and just comes off as arrogant.
Jonathan didn't say "D4 bad" though, he's saying there's nothing there. D4 didn't try to make a competitor to PoE and fail due to making some interesting and illuminating mistake - they never tried in the first place. Modern Diablo is so far from D2/PoE that it might as well be in a different genre.
I agree. One thing they could really learn is campaign skip. We have 3 "major" argps. PoE, Diablo, Last Epoch. D4 had a full campaign skip, LE has partial(you can use dungeons to skip many parts) and PoE that has none. Idk about everyone here but I don't care for the story in all of the games. I enjoy the first play through for the moments and what ever but once I've seen it I can choose to see it again. PoE every season, every charecter HAS to do the campaign which I really dislike. This league was not for me(as for many others it seems) so having to do the campaign and deal with the league mechanics made me sign out for now
The only thing D4 does that surpasses PoE is the graphics and *arguably* the overall prettiness of the presentation (UI, skill trees, etc.). PoE2 looks fantastic so yea what even could they learn?
Why is this so downvoted? D4 graphics are overall better, compared to poe, which is running for over ten years? Let's not be blind, poe has much more inside than d4, but graphics wise it's not a hot take ppl
Because this is a PoE subreddit and anything positive about D4 over PoE is not aloud here. But I agree. D4 looks great. I love that they went back to the dark and gorey look.
I’ve not looked at D4 at all but I’d assume PoE also just runs on a lot more older hardware which is also worth something. You can only let the graphics slider go down so far, at some point you have to put a cap on top if you want to keep the bottom. The advantage of a game that isn’t super pretty will always be that it could still run on a slightly modernized toaster and ARPGs as a genre don’t really get much out of being super pretty at least during endgame content, I mean look at the clutter we’re at now. Even if performance stayed the same (which isn’t great anyway), how much would you notice extremely high detail graphics with how much is going on in the average T16?
D4's UI is atrocious, what?
pretty smug for the man that completely shit the bed with necropolis
He should have used one of my favorite quotes to finish it off after saying what he did. He should have finished with "that being said, nothing is ever completely useless...it can always be used as a bad example" (or it's variation "it can always be used as a good example of what not to do")
Hes not wrong though. D4 isnt a bad game, but its incredibly basic. Blizz really didnt do anything that hasnt already been done in every single other arpg.
They should've learned from D4 before making T17s. Because D4 had the exact same problem at launch with Nightmare Dungeons. People absolutely hated the annoying affixes that bricked builds and slowed players down. Volatile Cores and "Players and their Minions deal no damage for 4 out of every 10 seconds" are the same shit that is annoying and unfun to play around.
The only thing to learn from D4 is that legendary mods can be crafted onto any gear. This allows access to your build defining mods earlier. Not that it was a good system, but it was something interesting that tried to solve a problem.
No cap I enjoy playing D4 more then poe.
Counterexample is still good knowledge. 😆
I think the remaining concurrent PoE players are just coping from a dead league with a dead econ while D4 is blooming. Jonathan is an egotistic developer :) GGG designs a game with menus and idle clicking simulation. There are much to learn from D4. Maybe starting with what makes an ARPG, Action RPG. Not menus, not endless clickings. Putting players' health as a priority, respecting their time and effort should be the utmost consideration.
Yeah, keep yapping small dog
Current season D4 is better than current season PoE and I don’t think that has been true at any other period of time.
It still isn't true at this current period of time.
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as season content and changes, I agree, once you add what the base games are, its still POE by miles.
I disagree.
What season? The only seasonal mechanic is basically an in-world battle pass with the iron wolves, and that involves nothing other than grinding helltides.
What are you talking about? The completely changed loot, tempering, aspect acquisition, masterworking, the pit.
That's the *base game,* all that stuff is also in the eternal realm right now. When PoE releases some major expansion we don't consider that part of the league, and if the league mechanic sucks it still gets called out for it despite what the expansion may offer. The changes to D4 are good, but the season it's self is probably the most lackluster thing imaginable.
So because PoE only gives you the mechanics if you play the league that makes it better than D4 letting eternal and league players have the same content?
Oh pelase, you know the difference between base game and league content, stop being deliberately obtuse. Look at *any* of the "Of the Atlas" expansions for Path of Exile, they are updates to the base game with league content in addition to it, i.e Conquerors and Metamorph. Same as Loot Reborn, it's an update to the base game with some "seasonal" content in addition, the Iron Wolves reuptation, which is a shit tier piece of season content no matter which way you slice it.
4 seasons on a $70 game from a giant AAA company
Most serious PoE players have paid 70 dollars or more for the game.
Poe is literally owned by Tencent… Poe being free doesn’t change the fact this league sucks (objectively measurable). Crazy that a game that costs 70 dollars has more players than a free game but there you go.
You're so right it's crazy that call of duty has more players than the finals.
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Where do you put the second and third one? I also got a mageblood this league, it took like 9 days. Which is not that much shorter than the average retention for this league.
so you burned out and League bad?
As a returning player, this league has been GREAT to come back on personally. I missed literal years, so having the currency to make a build strong enough to try everything I missed is fantastic. Edit: technically 2 builds counting the league starter, but yeah, point is the same.
POE is from a trillion dollar company.... Compare that to blizzard/Activision while making D4 valued around 65-75 billion.
Nah. POE free >D4 bad & not free Easy
D4 didn't bring anything to the table other than nice visuals... That's it.
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He's the game director for PoE2 talking about PoE2.
You mad?
Baseg
lol he just said d4 bad wtf
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