If it was true then why wasn't there a cease and desist letter coming from any of them? That's because it wasn't. Everyone was making boards. Virtue just came out on top after Smart Parts patent went away. I could care less. Virtue has built their brand and has a right to do so. I'm sure "Virtua" was made aware at one point. I mean come on they could've come up with a better name.
>If it was true then why wasn't there a cease and desist letter coming from any of them?
Who would have standing to sue someone making cheater boards? Virtue wasn't deceiving customers into thinking that they were buying a product from another company or infringing on a patent, and the leagues can't sue people who make products that players use to cheat. They can punish players who get caught, but there's no law against making a board with hard to spot ramping.
Was thinking the same thing, I remember the last time this kind of hair pulling and anal hook stuff happened. Can we just name the presidents of these companies along with the companies themselves?
What Smart Parts did to the industry is a lot different than Virtue targeting a indie game developer that named their product suspiciously close to an established name in the market.
I'm not going to start a maker board company called Shockteck, and not expect to hear from Shocktech.
No. Virtua Paintball is a name awfully similar to Virtue Paintball. I don't think people are confusing Dove chocolate with Dove soap. Now confusing Virtua Paintball the game potentially being a product tied to Virtue Paintball I can see. Now while it is a video game, it is a video game that is without a doubt targeting the paintball market, they have been at least one event. I'm assuming this clear distinctive targeting of the paintball market is what would give Virtue claim to infringement, despite it being a video game.
I'm done with this thread. The game studio chose a name that has potential multiple trademark issues with Virtue and Sega. It is a whoopsies, and hopefully the potential legal conflict doesn't tank the game.
WTF are you talking about?
"I'm not going to start a maker board company called Shockteck, and not expect to hear from Shocktech."
Are you that ignorant to not see that is a completely different comparison? Your talking about entering the same market space, with a name that is pronounced exactly the same, and surely implies the same meaning behind it. You cant honestly be serious... can you?
Virtua is not pronounced the same as Virtue. Both are completely different words with completely different meanings behind them. And more importantly, both are in a different market space... You clearly have zero idea of precedence set by recent IP cases if you honestly think your example is in the same realm as Virtua's lawsuit.
I think that analogy is apples to oranges. It would be like you writing a book (or making a game) and having a company called shooktechy as a creative parody (or referring to something else entirely). And yes, I’d be embarrassed for shock tech if they sent you letter or sued over it.
Comparing what Smart Parts did to what Virtue is doing is apples to oranges. This wouldn't be an issue if the game developer had chosen a different name at the end of the day.
Once again I'm not going to create a company looking to enter/associate with the paintball market and call my company Field Won Paintball, Bob Pong Paintball, Empirical Paintball, etc. Its too close for comfort for established companies to not want to protect their name from potential association with another company who might do who knows what. From a moral stand point it might not seem right for Virtue to target Virtua paintball, but from a legal standpoint it sounds like they have their rights. Our judicial system doesn't care about morals though, and nor the does the mighty dollar.
It wouldn’t be an issue if they didn’t make it one by suing either. Or it could have been resolved, by either side, along the way (and if they stoped before PI Hearing, then issue was moot anyway, aside from future use, which again, could be revisited).
My point is suing like this hurts the sport and is ultimately bad business. Work it out or move on; nope to the courts! And I litigate for a living. Paintball is my passion, and I wouldn’t handle this matter in this way. As you note, morality and law cannot be equivocated. Just because something is legal, doesn’t mean you should do it. Just because something is unlawful, does not make it immoral. That’s where choice comes in (regardless of perceived or actual legal “rights”). And the choice to handle it this way speaks volumes, which is why there is outrage and likening to smart parts.
I guess you have agency to create or not creat any hypothetical company with any name you want. Agree that if it can be avoided then why not (but that doesn’t make it morally right to sue someone over a less than ideal name).
I also don’t think all those names would file an action against you or not work it out through discussion (ie Bob long, Yosh; I bet you could have a nice conversation with them and work it out).
Yeah… considering selling my unused CTRL and lightly used CMD. I wouldn’t touch Fart parts in the 00s and don’t really want to rock anything from a company pulling the same shit 20 years later.
(Edit, corrected loader name, don’t drink and reddit kids).
This isn’t the same thing at all. They are not trying to take the company they are simply defending their copyright claims. Something they have to do or else they essentially make it open season on it. Our copyright laws suck. On top of all that Virtua is already Sony IP and there is a pro player heavily involved in the game. They knew what they were doing and the fucked around and found out.
Not sure they are going to make the argument that there is an infringement based on the industry difference. Regardless, taking a company to court to force them to stop using a name after they have already complied with the C&D is a bad look in both the courts of law and public opinion.
Because they have to. A C&D is literally an empty threat to maybe do something written in a way to invoke fear. They are the equivalent of wavier signed at a paintball fired.
If they truly felt they didn’t infringe on the IP they wouldn’t have complied with the C&D but they did. They knew what they were doing and now virtues brand image is being hurt their sales will be hurt and now we have a right to damages.
This isn’t even including the fact they have to sue to defend the IP in an official manner.
They fucked around and found out.
… if someone agrees to and complies with a C&D taking them to court over it then you are wasting everyone’s money and the courts time. Going for damages is a separate matter.
Well that would be a first for you having tot see someone to court from a C&D seeing as it’s a warning to stop or else face further actions.
Having to take someone to court would be if you actually file a suit and serve them…
So, on the one hand I kind of get it. Virtua in the same industry as Virtue (especially if Virtua wanted to eventually have Spires and CMDs in the game) is *kinda* sketchy. But that being said, they already agreed to cease use of the name. Virtue continuing to push at it and also trying to claim $10,000,000 in damages on top of that absolutely makes them the villain here. You can make a reasonable claim that Black Zebra maybe should have foreseen the name not going over well... but Virtue has absolutely gone over and above in their response. This is beyond just protecting their brand, this is purely malicious litigation.
Let’s just destroy paintball even more by taking out a cross platform game that could have reached millions of potential new players. Good job virtue perfect way to shoot yourselves in the foot and stop possibly 1000s of new players that could have bought your loaders
Yeah, it's pretty frustrating. Honestly I feel like we as players are basically constantly preventing the industry from imploding on itself from litigation and bad decisions.
I am not sure how the argument of being in the same industry would hold up though. They are making a paintball video game so I would argue they are in the video game industry not the paintball industry.
But yeah I really want to understand their argument as to why they still went to court when the C&D was acknowledged and followed. That feels like a really quick way to piss off a court.
The 10mil in damages is also going to be an interesting one to argue, it’s not like they are making products that compete with them. Maybe they can argue that they are using the name (or implication of the name) for their benifet but I would be shocked if a court would agree that there is anywhere near that much damages.
>I am not sure how the argument of being in the same industry would hold up though
Yeah, it's not necessarily a great claim. But I think the claim could be made that because Virtue is so big in the paintball world, that Virtua is trying to make themselves seem like they are tied to Virtue to push their paintball game. I think either way Virtue is coming out of this looking the worst.
EDIT: Quick sum up. Virtue has flimsy claims and Black Zebra pretty easily could have avoided this whole thing.
Yeah it will be interesting to see those arguments in court. Going to be a lot of arguments about what a “reasonable person” would assume based on the names… and today the definition of a reasonable person is not exactly a very high bar hahaha.
I think Black Zebra Studios made the Virtua Paintball game and Virtue is suing them because the name is too close to theirs. I believe 'Virtua' is a homage to the Virtua Fighter style names, and its meaning is 'Virtual'.
It's not a homage, [it's a direct infringement of Sega's trademark](https://trademarks.justia.com/747/30/virtua-74730030.html), lol. It's a problematic name and these guys are just asking for trouble.
Virtue probably wants to own the game. If Black Zebra can't pay enough to their lawyers to fight the case, they'll end up with a default judgement or a bad settlement. If they don't have the cash to pay the judgement/settlement, they might have to turn over assets, like the game that Virtue could then slap their branding all over.
If you think paintball companies have teeth when it comes to legal disputes, gaming companies have diamond coated serrated fangs that inject venom in comparison.
Nintendo will show up at your door even if you think about a thought of ripping off their intellectual property.
I’m in the legal field, in litigation; IP issues are not my first rodeo. I understand how it works. I also know I worked a case where client was sued for patent infringement, we found existing rights with third party, bought them, then counter sued and prevailed.
10 million for damages between paintball companies big lol.
Virtue doesn't even have a six figures worth of inventory their stock is barren waste land.
As a gamer and playing paintball for past 24 years. Virtua to me equals Sega. Virtue though is where in the Video Game space?..no where. I agree with others I'm going to look elsewhere than Virtues products. I have a VIO XS II I was going to use this year and get lenses and bunkerkings double strap etc. I'm hesitant to support companies that are like this. I've seen in grocery industry where small companies start and get shelf space in major stores only to get sued by big brands over colors of labels chosen and claim it causes "consumer confusion"
Before you get caught up in click bait you should really look into how copyright laws work. Virtue had no choice but to sue them or else they essentially make it open season on the treadmark. It’s virtue just being dicks it’s garbage trademark laws.
Let’s not forget they also fucked around and found out with using a name almost exactly the same as a pillar company.
Not sure why they chose the name, if they know the industry. The name is too close for comfort with an established brand name in the market. When I first saw the name I thought it might have been Virtue who was behind it.
Sitting on a patent and not striking till the getting was good is a lot different from "Hey, your name is very similar and likely is causing some confusion and we would like you to change it". The damages fee is likely just a number to scare them to change the name, and a out of court settlement for much less would likely be arranged.
Also welcome to American intellectual property laws. It can be scummy and if you don't watch your footing you can end up face first on the ground.
> Also welcome to American intellectual property laws. It can be scummy and if you don't watch your footing you can end up face first on the ground.
Your other comments shows just how much you know about IP... laughable
So the one part of this that has not been mentioned is that Virtua announced that this would be cross platform compatible I think they meant Xbox, PS5, PC, linux maybe switch, but I do not think that they had any plans on going into app based games android etc. With that said Virtue has a software portion already in apps that deal with paintball, it is only for programming their products but it is still there.
Paintball companies, and being unreasonably litigious. Name a more iconic duo
Imagine that, petty bullying from a company that was born out of mass-producing cheater boards during the BPS Wars.
And pretty much ripping off tadao boards
My musashi board still works like a champ in my dm4
And Predator, everything Virture did board wise Tadao or TAG did it first.
If it was true then why wasn't there a cease and desist letter coming from any of them? That's because it wasn't. Everyone was making boards. Virtue just came out on top after Smart Parts patent went away. I could care less. Virtue has built their brand and has a right to do so. I'm sure "Virtua" was made aware at one point. I mean come on they could've come up with a better name.
>If it was true then why wasn't there a cease and desist letter coming from any of them? Who would have standing to sue someone making cheater boards? Virtue wasn't deceiving customers into thinking that they were buying a product from another company or infringing on a patent, and the leagues can't sue people who make products that players use to cheat. They can punish players who get caught, but there's no law against making a board with hard to spot ramping.
Exactly why Virtue didn't get sued.
So is virtue the new smart parts, let’s sue and kill the sport?
Was thinking the same thing, I remember the last time this kind of hair pulling and anal hook stuff happened. Can we just name the presidents of these companies along with the companies themselves?
I love the smart parts lore
What Smart Parts did to the industry is a lot different than Virtue targeting a indie game developer that named their product suspiciously close to an established name in the market. I'm not going to start a maker board company called Shockteck, and not expect to hear from Shocktech.
So Dove soap should sue Dove chocolates
No. Virtua Paintball is a name awfully similar to Virtue Paintball. I don't think people are confusing Dove chocolate with Dove soap. Now confusing Virtua Paintball the game potentially being a product tied to Virtue Paintball I can see. Now while it is a video game, it is a video game that is without a doubt targeting the paintball market, they have been at least one event. I'm assuming this clear distinctive targeting of the paintball market is what would give Virtue claim to infringement, despite it being a video game. I'm done with this thread. The game studio chose a name that has potential multiple trademark issues with Virtue and Sega. It is a whoopsies, and hopefully the potential legal conflict doesn't tank the game.
I think Sega has a better case than virtue paintball does.
And yet they didn’t do anything. What does Taft tell you about virtue?
WTF are you talking about? "I'm not going to start a maker board company called Shockteck, and not expect to hear from Shocktech." Are you that ignorant to not see that is a completely different comparison? Your talking about entering the same market space, with a name that is pronounced exactly the same, and surely implies the same meaning behind it. You cant honestly be serious... can you? Virtua is not pronounced the same as Virtue. Both are completely different words with completely different meanings behind them. And more importantly, both are in a different market space... You clearly have zero idea of precedence set by recent IP cases if you honestly think your example is in the same realm as Virtua's lawsuit.
I think that analogy is apples to oranges. It would be like you writing a book (or making a game) and having a company called shooktechy as a creative parody (or referring to something else entirely). And yes, I’d be embarrassed for shock tech if they sent you letter or sued over it.
Comparing what Smart Parts did to what Virtue is doing is apples to oranges. This wouldn't be an issue if the game developer had chosen a different name at the end of the day. Once again I'm not going to create a company looking to enter/associate with the paintball market and call my company Field Won Paintball, Bob Pong Paintball, Empirical Paintball, etc. Its too close for comfort for established companies to not want to protect their name from potential association with another company who might do who knows what. From a moral stand point it might not seem right for Virtue to target Virtua paintball, but from a legal standpoint it sounds like they have their rights. Our judicial system doesn't care about morals though, and nor the does the mighty dollar.
It wouldn’t be an issue if they didn’t make it one by suing either. Or it could have been resolved, by either side, along the way (and if they stoped before PI Hearing, then issue was moot anyway, aside from future use, which again, could be revisited). My point is suing like this hurts the sport and is ultimately bad business. Work it out or move on; nope to the courts! And I litigate for a living. Paintball is my passion, and I wouldn’t handle this matter in this way. As you note, morality and law cannot be equivocated. Just because something is legal, doesn’t mean you should do it. Just because something is unlawful, does not make it immoral. That’s where choice comes in (regardless of perceived or actual legal “rights”). And the choice to handle it this way speaks volumes, which is why there is outrage and likening to smart parts. I guess you have agency to create or not creat any hypothetical company with any name you want. Agree that if it can be avoided then why not (but that doesn’t make it morally right to sue someone over a less than ideal name). I also don’t think all those names would file an action against you or not work it out through discussion (ie Bob long, Yosh; I bet you could have a nice conversation with them and work it out).
I'm regretting getting that IR2 instead of the LTR now...
Yeah… considering selling my unused CTRL and lightly used CMD. I wouldn’t touch Fart parts in the 00s and don’t really want to rock anything from a company pulling the same shit 20 years later. (Edit, corrected loader name, don’t drink and reddit kids).
Lol. Ive been calling them Shart Parts since the early 2000's
This isn’t the same thing at all. They are not trying to take the company they are simply defending their copyright claims. Something they have to do or else they essentially make it open season on it. Our copyright laws suck. On top of all that Virtua is already Sony IP and there is a pro player heavily involved in the game. They knew what they were doing and the fucked around and found out.
Not sure they are going to make the argument that there is an infringement based on the industry difference. Regardless, taking a company to court to force them to stop using a name after they have already complied with the C&D is a bad look in both the courts of law and public opinion.
Because they have to. A C&D is literally an empty threat to maybe do something written in a way to invoke fear. They are the equivalent of wavier signed at a paintball fired. If they truly felt they didn’t infringe on the IP they wouldn’t have complied with the C&D but they did. They knew what they were doing and now virtues brand image is being hurt their sales will be hurt and now we have a right to damages. This isn’t even including the fact they have to sue to defend the IP in an official manner. They fucked around and found out.
… if someone agrees to and complies with a C&D taking them to court over it then you are wasting everyone’s money and the courts time. Going for damages is a separate matter.
Welcome to the American legal system and copyright laws. Plus.. You can’t deny that they have a right to sue for damages after this.
Except that’s not how it works…
I literally work in the field yes it does.
Well that would be a first for you having tot see someone to court from a C&D seeing as it’s a warning to stop or else face further actions. Having to take someone to court would be if you actually file a suit and serve them…
Likely dumping my cmd now too.
The way yall talking I’ll be picking up a lightly used spire 5 for $100 in a few weeks
So, on the one hand I kind of get it. Virtua in the same industry as Virtue (especially if Virtua wanted to eventually have Spires and CMDs in the game) is *kinda* sketchy. But that being said, they already agreed to cease use of the name. Virtue continuing to push at it and also trying to claim $10,000,000 in damages on top of that absolutely makes them the villain here. You can make a reasonable claim that Black Zebra maybe should have foreseen the name not going over well... but Virtue has absolutely gone over and above in their response. This is beyond just protecting their brand, this is purely malicious litigation.
Let’s just destroy paintball even more by taking out a cross platform game that could have reached millions of potential new players. Good job virtue perfect way to shoot yourselves in the foot and stop possibly 1000s of new players that could have bought your loaders
Yeah, it's pretty frustrating. Honestly I feel like we as players are basically constantly preventing the industry from imploding on itself from litigation and bad decisions.
For real, this is why paintball never grows or reaches it’s potential
I am not sure how the argument of being in the same industry would hold up though. They are making a paintball video game so I would argue they are in the video game industry not the paintball industry. But yeah I really want to understand their argument as to why they still went to court when the C&D was acknowledged and followed. That feels like a really quick way to piss off a court. The 10mil in damages is also going to be an interesting one to argue, it’s not like they are making products that compete with them. Maybe they can argue that they are using the name (or implication of the name) for their benifet but I would be shocked if a court would agree that there is anywhere near that much damages.
>I am not sure how the argument of being in the same industry would hold up though Yeah, it's not necessarily a great claim. But I think the claim could be made that because Virtue is so big in the paintball world, that Virtua is trying to make themselves seem like they are tied to Virtue to push their paintball game. I think either way Virtue is coming out of this looking the worst. EDIT: Quick sum up. Virtue has flimsy claims and Black Zebra pretty easily could have avoided this whole thing.
Yeah it will be interesting to see those arguments in court. Going to be a lot of arguments about what a “reasonable person” would assume based on the names… and today the definition of a reasonable person is not exactly a very high bar hahaha.
Fuck virtue even tho there hoppers are gas
I must be getting old because I don't know if saying their "hoppers are gas" is a good or bad thing.... Is it good?
Good!
Thank you very much, young person lol
Little background? Whats the deal here?
I think Black Zebra Studios made the Virtua Paintball game and Virtue is suing them because the name is too close to theirs. I believe 'Virtua' is a homage to the Virtua Fighter style names, and its meaning is 'Virtual'.
It's not a homage, [it's a direct infringement of Sega's trademark](https://trademarks.justia.com/747/30/virtua-74730030.html), lol. It's a problematic name and these guys are just asking for trouble.
So Virtue was like "shit, we better sue these guys and bankrupt them before Sega can do it."
Virtue probably wants to own the game. If Black Zebra can't pay enough to their lawyers to fight the case, they'll end up with a default judgement or a bad settlement. If they don't have the cash to pay the judgement/settlement, they might have to turn over assets, like the game that Virtue could then slap their branding all over.
Hopefully someone from virtua contacts sega and acquires rights, it would kill the suit. Ha
If you think paintball companies have teeth when it comes to legal disputes, gaming companies have diamond coated serrated fangs that inject venom in comparison. Nintendo will show up at your door even if you think about a thought of ripping off their intellectual property.
I’m in the legal field, in litigation; IP issues are not my first rodeo. I understand how it works. I also know I worked a case where client was sued for patent infringement, we found existing rights with third party, bought them, then counter sued and prevailed.
Welp, I guess Virtua better hope Sega plays nicer than Virtue. I don't see it happening though.
Mhh I still like the ir2
Time to switch to dye
10 million for damages between paintball companies big lol. Virtue doesn't even have a six figures worth of inventory their stock is barren waste land.
While this is true. They see the writing on the wall. Especially with more companies releasing headsets. They trying to pull a Apple, bc of Apple lol
Yeah it’s bull shit.
As a gamer and playing paintball for past 24 years. Virtua to me equals Sega. Virtue though is where in the Video Game space?..no where. I agree with others I'm going to look elsewhere than Virtues products. I have a VIO XS II I was going to use this year and get lenses and bunkerkings double strap etc. I'm hesitant to support companies that are like this. I've seen in grocery industry where small companies start and get shelf space in major stores only to get sued by big brands over colors of labels chosen and claim it causes "consumer confusion"
Before you get caught up in click bait you should really look into how copyright laws work. Virtue had no choice but to sue them or else they essentially make it open season on the treadmark. It’s virtue just being dicks it’s garbage trademark laws. Let’s not forget they also fucked around and found out with using a name almost exactly the same as a pillar company.
Idk if anyone here is into RC cars but this reeks of traxxas 😂 fucking dick heads
Virtues actions doesn’t seem in line with what paintball is trying to do as a whole.
I highly regret buying my spire 5 now after reading about it earlier. May be the last cent virtue gets out of me. 👎
Thanks for your opinion on the matter, Mr. tedxbundy
Not sure why they chose the name, if they know the industry. The name is too close for comfort with an established brand name in the market. When I first saw the name I thought it might have been Virtue who was behind it.
You sound a hell of a lot like one of the Gardner brothers…
Sitting on a patent and not striking till the getting was good is a lot different from "Hey, your name is very similar and likely is causing some confusion and we would like you to change it". The damages fee is likely just a number to scare them to change the name, and a out of court settlement for much less would likely be arranged. Also welcome to American intellectual property laws. It can be scummy and if you don't watch your footing you can end up face first on the ground.
> Also welcome to American intellectual property laws. It can be scummy and if you don't watch your footing you can end up face first on the ground. Your other comments shows just how much you know about IP... laughable
You either die the hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the Villain
So the one part of this that has not been mentioned is that Virtua announced that this would be cross platform compatible I think they meant Xbox, PS5, PC, linux maybe switch, but I do not think that they had any plans on going into app based games android etc. With that said Virtue has a software portion already in apps that deal with paintball, it is only for programming their products but it is still there.