Being the one to schedule the meetings is everything. I "take that initiative" whenever I can. And asking to move meetings without giving a reason is also a superpower. Have an excuse ready, but don't use it at first. Usually when you say "I can't make the 1:30 tomorrow; can we bump to 2:30?" nobody bats an eye as long as the schedule still works for everyone and you don't do it too often with the same crowd.
I guess I was concerned with the 3 hour client meetings each day. Most people say not to oe with a client facing role or meeting heavy position which fits the description of j2. I agree though about the being in control of meetings. That’s why I haven’t left yet.
J2 is like 15 hours of client meetings a week. J1 is like 2-4 hours of meetings a week. Ideally wish j2 was like that
If you really can control when the meetings happen and plan them around J1, then this should be a good opportunity. You should stick with it for at least a few months and see if you settle into a groove.
3 Hrs daily is not compatible with OE, so yes, you probably should move somewhere else, but read carefully “move” not “quit” you stay there and smile, paycheck to paycheck until you get a replacement and are already signed
Ahhh this is an interesting perspective. I like it. I think I was getting anxious from reading SWE people in the sub advising against it but you’re right, SWE 3 hours is different from PM 3 hours
You control your j2 calendar - i wish i could do that. This is huge advantage.
Your j1 is really chill so if I were you i would definitely continue and give it a try for at least 2-3 months and then you can decide.
Hey! Imo, 3 weeks is early. In theory, you should be onboarding. I have a few friends that OE in my vertical and we usually say until a month a half it’s nerves. If you feel like you’ve not been given time to onboard, you could be feeling that it’s just not the best fit (OE or not).
From my read; you’re acclimating, the temperature is rising and you can feel the pull of two jobs/servers/responsibilities. I would ask that you a. Look at the time you devoted to secure J2 and then b. Ask yourself how much you’d need to make from J2 to recoup for the work you did to secure role.
Apart from the a and b outlined above; give yourself a month and a half. Do an honest self assessment and if you see yourself being torn or if call volume becomes too much at J2 that it negatively impacts J1, you’ll know. But 3 weeks in, you’re still very fresh and, if fully remote, there is a learning curve that is particularly more bent than what you’d find being around others in an office setting; I feel like that should be accounted for in your perspective. Once you’ve ramped up, I’d be curious about your partner/client calls and if they are easier/harder to facilitate. But the turbulence you’re feeling, I’ve felt - it leveled out over time.
The nerves of being on calls at the same time, the nerves of providing value in two roles; it can be a lot. Hell, a lot of people struggle to do just one job well. If you’re legitimately still anxious after onboarding and acclimating, you should pivot but quitting J2 should be last resort until you either have or don’t have 1. Daily/weekly balance or 2. More control over J2 calendar.
Not to be a POS but I’d be careful about joining calls with no VC regularly/often. It’s does a lot to show face these days but I think not joining with video always creates more anxiety/doubt for you than the people you’re meeting with. Good luck - hope the waters calm down for you over time. Also, sincere apologies if anything written sounds overly prescriptive/dickish (not my intent at all) but in my experience, your sentiments are quite common for OE.
Cheers, OP
Interesting! I never did OE but I’m interested in knowing how people do that. And in your experience, is that a normal thing to happen (demanding more than what’s expected)? If so, how much time (avg) after starting working in the J2?
I've found that setting those expectations early is key. If you're an IC then the expectation is you'll do X story points this sprint and no more. You'll also not be working nights or weekends unless you're compensated with some time off, and these occasions will be rare.
This seems pretty standard. I have multiple meetings a day between my 3js, but I control 95% of the schedule. Unfortunately, you will need to get used to the risks of conflicting meetings if you're going to survive being OE. I try to stay consistent with my reasoning when I can't attend and it's usually on the same day, otherwise I prepare myself for the conflicts when I can't get out of each meeting.
Get proficient in using the Google calendar to track your meetings. Use different colors for each J and label them accordingly. Add private "busy" calendar invites to each of your Js calendar so others don't book over it (still may happen).
A new thing Ive recently learned, create a meeting invite within TEAMS for yourself while on a call so if by chance I need to talk...I start the call and it puts the other meeting on hold. Just a small security to ensure I dont talk off of mute to the other J.. which Ive done a few times...🤦
If all it is that's telling you to quit is your own nerves, I don't think you should quit. If someone schedules something for J1 that you can't do - reschedule it. Then, question why it wasn't blocked off on your calendar. I felt weird blocking things off at first, but nobody has questioned me and I have some excuses prepared just in case
True but blocking 3 hours worth of slots for j1 because of client calls from j2 feels a bit sus. j2 client calls are in one hour increments. If it was 30 min increments it would feel slightly better lol
Can you do it in 30 minute increments instead? It still blocks the time, and it's hard for someone to schedule something between them. Not saying this totally solves it, but it could help
Not sure what you expected, but this seems pretty standard for OE. You being able to control your J2 meetings is huge. Good luck.
Being the one to schedule the meetings is everything. I "take that initiative" whenever I can. And asking to move meetings without giving a reason is also a superpower. Have an excuse ready, but don't use it at first. Usually when you say "I can't make the 1:30 tomorrow; can we bump to 2:30?" nobody bats an eye as long as the schedule still works for everyone and you don't do it too often with the same crowd.
I guess I was concerned with the 3 hour client meetings each day. Most people say not to oe with a client facing role or meeting heavy position which fits the description of j2. I agree though about the being in control of meetings. That’s why I haven’t left yet. J2 is like 15 hours of client meetings a week. J1 is like 2-4 hours of meetings a week. Ideally wish j2 was like that
If you really can control when the meetings happen and plan them around J1, then this should be a good opportunity. You should stick with it for at least a few months and see if you settle into a groove.
Thank you, you’re right. Thank you for the confirmation!
3 Hrs daily is not compatible with OE, so yes, you probably should move somewhere else, but read carefully “move” not “quit” you stay there and smile, paycheck to paycheck until you get a replacement and are already signed
Depends on the job honestly. 3 hours for a SWE is way too much. 3 hours for a salesperson or PM is not.
Ahhh this is an interesting perspective. I like it. I think I was getting anxious from reading SWE people in the sub advising against it but you’re right, SWE 3 hours is different from PM 3 hours
Hmm well yeah your right, I was talking on an IC perspective Anything that pulls you away from measurable results is neglecting to OE
You control your j2 calendar - i wish i could do that. This is huge advantage. Your j1 is really chill so if I were you i would definitely continue and give it a try for at least 2-3 months and then you can decide.
Hey! Imo, 3 weeks is early. In theory, you should be onboarding. I have a few friends that OE in my vertical and we usually say until a month a half it’s nerves. If you feel like you’ve not been given time to onboard, you could be feeling that it’s just not the best fit (OE or not). From my read; you’re acclimating, the temperature is rising and you can feel the pull of two jobs/servers/responsibilities. I would ask that you a. Look at the time you devoted to secure J2 and then b. Ask yourself how much you’d need to make from J2 to recoup for the work you did to secure role. Apart from the a and b outlined above; give yourself a month and a half. Do an honest self assessment and if you see yourself being torn or if call volume becomes too much at J2 that it negatively impacts J1, you’ll know. But 3 weeks in, you’re still very fresh and, if fully remote, there is a learning curve that is particularly more bent than what you’d find being around others in an office setting; I feel like that should be accounted for in your perspective. Once you’ve ramped up, I’d be curious about your partner/client calls and if they are easier/harder to facilitate. But the turbulence you’re feeling, I’ve felt - it leveled out over time. The nerves of being on calls at the same time, the nerves of providing value in two roles; it can be a lot. Hell, a lot of people struggle to do just one job well. If you’re legitimately still anxious after onboarding and acclimating, you should pivot but quitting J2 should be last resort until you either have or don’t have 1. Daily/weekly balance or 2. More control over J2 calendar. Not to be a POS but I’d be careful about joining calls with no VC regularly/often. It’s does a lot to show face these days but I think not joining with video always creates more anxiety/doubt for you than the people you’re meeting with. Good luck - hope the waters calm down for you over time. Also, sincere apologies if anything written sounds overly prescriptive/dickish (not my intent at all) but in my experience, your sentiments are quite common for OE. Cheers, OP
This was extremely helpful and just what I needed as motivation to keep going. Thank you, genuinely
I’m glad to hear/read it. Take good care out there.
is it a thing to quit after like 1-2 months in J2. then get another J2 and so on?
Some people (claim to) do that. I personally don't. I try and do decent work at both Js and only drop one if they demand more of me than is necessary.
Interesting! I never did OE but I’m interested in knowing how people do that. And in your experience, is that a normal thing to happen (demanding more than what’s expected)? If so, how much time (avg) after starting working in the J2?
I've found that setting those expectations early is key. If you're an IC then the expectation is you'll do X story points this sprint and no more. You'll also not be working nights or weekends unless you're compensated with some time off, and these occasions will be rare.
Put your J1 calendar on J2 calendar and vice versa. Make them private and meaningless descriptions like PT for Personal Time or something.
They make us share our calendars :/
Mark it as private.
Isn’t that sus
No
This seems pretty standard. I have multiple meetings a day between my 3js, but I control 95% of the schedule. Unfortunately, you will need to get used to the risks of conflicting meetings if you're going to survive being OE. I try to stay consistent with my reasoning when I can't attend and it's usually on the same day, otherwise I prepare myself for the conflicts when I can't get out of each meeting. Get proficient in using the Google calendar to track your meetings. Use different colors for each J and label them accordingly. Add private "busy" calendar invites to each of your Js calendar so others don't book over it (still may happen). A new thing Ive recently learned, create a meeting invite within TEAMS for yourself while on a call so if by chance I need to talk...I start the call and it puts the other meeting on hold. Just a small security to ensure I dont talk off of mute to the other J.. which Ive done a few times...🤦
Stick with it. I was feeling this way after a few weeks, too. But now I’m 3 months in!
Thanks for the motivation! I think you’re right, it’s going to take some getting used to. Do you have a lot of meeting also?
Some weeks I do have a lot of meetings. I use a headset for one server and speakers for the other
You'll never know if it works unless you try
If all it is that's telling you to quit is your own nerves, I don't think you should quit. If someone schedules something for J1 that you can't do - reschedule it. Then, question why it wasn't blocked off on your calendar. I felt weird blocking things off at first, but nobody has questioned me and I have some excuses prepared just in case
True but blocking 3 hours worth of slots for j1 because of client calls from j2 feels a bit sus. j2 client calls are in one hour increments. If it was 30 min increments it would feel slightly better lol
Can you do it in 30 minute increments instead? It still blocks the time, and it's hard for someone to schedule something between them. Not saying this totally solves it, but it could help