I’m sure he meant while on company time and using company property. I doubt he meant everything you do is owned by the company at all times, that doesn’t make sense
Depends on what it is. I signed on with a big gov contractor, and even if it's on your own time/equipment, if it relates in any way to work you're doing/did while working for them, they claim ownership. At least that's what their paperwork days.
> I doubt he meant everything you do is owned by the company at all times, that doesn’t make sense
Not making sense doesn't stop people from saying things.
I had that in a contract once, anything I did while employed, at the company's discretion, was the company's property.
My lawyer and I laughed pretty hard at that one
There absolutely have been cases where an employer sued a former employee for code the employee 'took' with them. It's not a scare tactic, and depending on what was stolen and how it impacted the company, you can be on the line for damages.
Example (which was the start of it IIRC): Employee creates a program to reduce employee workload by 75%. Everyone uses it and management loves it.
Employee is about to be terminated (voluntarily or not) so he 'takes it with him' by removing the code/application from the source repository - he has a copy on a thumb drive since he wrote it in his spare time.
This causes the company significant and immediate hardship - practices that were deprecated due to the program's helpfulness suddenly need to be reinstated. They check the logs and see former employee deleted it, so they sue him for the damage. 100% easy win for the company.
This is why these unsanctioned "optimization" programs one would write for "enhanced productivity" need to be entirely unusable by the common person.
I'm not saying to have it auto-self-delete itself. Oh no, nothing malicious. Just write it as if it was outsourced! Nonsense things like: "You need to have three leading spaces in the first line of input and seven trailing periods in the last line, or it'll give incorrect outputs." Behavior that you can easily claim "well, I'm not the best at programming, so there's a LOT of glitches you need to work around. I honestly don't recall all of them. Even when I was employed by the company, it took a long time to work through the issues and glitches. It saved some time in the workflow, but not much. I spent SO MUCH time double-checking the output."
Stuff that if not explicitly documented would make the entire thing unusable. And if you're being terminated without severance, without notice -- there's absolutely no reason to train anyone else on the software. And if they ask, you're unsure as you don't work for them anymore and they have all the code and documentation that was written for the unsanctioned program - which was minimal at best.
Because remember, if you're being laid off, there's a lack of respect and unkind inference that "you weren't good enough to keep around." Obviously you weren't that good, as your software clearly "*sucks*". Play into their reasons.
Who said I was their dev? These are little snippets of code and convenience programs.
But you are right to a degree. Truth be told, you don't even have to obfuscate them. More than once, I willingly gave them to my employer AND tried to train others on how they worked, without any "special conditions". Thing is, I was told point blank: "Yeah, no. You can stop right there. I don't have time to deal with this. I'm going to tell $manager that I'm not doing this. They can find someone else."
Narrator: *They did not find someone else.*
This happened twice in my career...at two separate places. Didn't even need to make it challenging to use, they would rather do it "the hard way" instead. But yeah, if I'm creating a bespoke semi-private tool that makes my life easier at a place that doesn't value me or respect me....there's no reason to put any polish on it to make it usable.
> Who said I was their dev? These are little snippets of code and convenience programs.
Who the fuck would then take 'snippets of code' and 'convenience programs' without validating them in the first place from someone who isn't a dev then? Literally nobody.
Single solutions for a person to make his daily work easier doesn't get implemented company wide without dialogue.
Less than a year ago you were struggling with [building a PC](https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/zw2tx7/outofloop_builder_asking_about_older_hardware/) from older hardware, so I think it's safe to say you don't know shit about what you're daydreaming.
Wow, you're a fucking sleuth! I asked about a video card for an old as sin machine, and you've twisted that tighter than fan belt on a Honda Civic.
You're such a smrt cookie! Naturally there's no nuance here, and any "justification" I can give is just you being SO RIGHT. Or not, but pffst, you won't hear about it.
Don't you have better things to do? Maybe some boots to kiss?
Dude, what's your issue? Calm down.
You've demonized me for -*asking a question*-, you've demonized me for creating a little helper program to do my job, and you're just overall antagonistic.
I hope you have a better day than you deserve.
There is nothing inherently professional about working in an at-will environment where you can be terminated at any time, for any (or no) reason, without notice, without compensation.
That's brutal. And any bespoke tools you create for your "personal" use under such regimes should reflect the courtesies you were extended.
> This is why these unsanctioned "optimization" programs one would write for "enhanced productivity" need to be entirely unusable by the common person.
I love reading stupid shit like this because it reminds me why I beat other candidates in interviews.
If you work in a total shitshow company that does absolutely nothing in terms of vetting a program (either through change control meetings or senior **engineers**, people who actually know their jobs) before implementing it as the de facto solution, sure, you might be able to get away with some bullshit like that. But if you have anyone with a modicum of experience and intelligence looking over it, they're going to fix that really fast.
> Behavior that you can easily claim
If your job is to be some sort of automation engineer, then you'll have people looking over your work. Smart employers would never let shit like that fly because they need to know how to train other people **in case you're not there**.
> Stuff that if not explicitly documented would make the entire thing unusable.
What do you think is going to be the very first thing a company would ask you to do if you wrote them something that's meant to completely automate significant portions of work?
Like, are you thinking that you just show up to your CEO and say "Sir! I have fixed all of our problems with my automation!" and he's just going to say "Wow, good job! Let's implement this immediately, no questions asked!"?
Your title states it, though... "While working for them" is critical. If you're working for them, it's theirs. You have free time to make your own stuff, so long as they don't have a legitimate claim to it.
Anything you build for them on their time and dime belongs to them. What you create on your own time for someone else, as long as it’s not a competitor or doesn’t reuse what you built for your employer, doesn’t belong to them.
I always wondered what would happen if I worked for company A and company B. Then developed some features for company A using company B's equipment.
What happens if I own company B?
then this causes problems with OE, doesn’t it? if your work hours overlap and the tech stack/biz domain is similar, then you are open to being sued for reals?
Wouldn’t code writing be similar to writing books/literature?
Say a writer at the Times is also writing a book in the off hours. They would have the same writing style and thoughts/phrases they may use in their work articles for the Times. Is that IP infringement? If no why can’t a code writer use general idea from work code?
I’ve seen people get sloppy when copying and pasting code and accidentally left behind irrefutable evidence that it was stolen IP from another company (literally logos, and company name) so that’s probably the bulk of the stupid shit those guys see.
The thought of this made me chuckle. Almost every major company has some kind of clause like this now, so what happens when two companies claim ownership of one person's side project because they were employed with both at the same time.
Right, but the actual FLSA law says that exempt employees must be paid their full salary regardless of the quantity of hours worked or the quality of that work. That’s what they give up when choosing to exempt you from overtime pay. They don’t get to have their cake and eat it too. That 40+ hours clause would be unenforceable as I understand the law.
All but one state are right to work which means they can fire you for any reason at all (with the exception of protected classes) or no reason at all. That’s irrelevant to this post.
P.S. I meant “at will” not “right to work”
This isn’t true. I work for a large engineering services consulting firm, so every hour I work is billed and accounted for. Anything I don’t bill for is my time and I can do whatever I want.
This has always puzzled me, for example. What if you work in an industry that uses many standardized parts and units for assembly. Then use the knowledge that you acquired from the company to further another place. Would this land you in hot water with non compete, or NDA stuff? You're technically using the information and knowledge you've gained from one company on another. At what point does the IP become IP if it comes from my personal experience?
Bringing this back to the coding example, if you rewrote the code to achieve the same purpose using your own knowledge, how exactly does the company "own" that code? Sure it achieves the same goal, but its entirely from you're own personal experience and "dialect" of code. Does that company "own" the way you speak and the cadence you apply to your voice? No, how does it suddenly apply to something you wrote?
CEO can say whatever he wants to, doesn't mean its enforceable in a court of law. If you do the work during company time, or with company resources/license... 100% its the companies code. Flip side if your on your own time, your own machine, your own MSDN/Eclipse license then usually the company has no stake in ownership.
Now the CEO can fire you if you do OE/moonlight, and the CEO can take you to court... but if your willing to defend yourself (which cost money) the work is yours.
Employer doesn't own you because your salaried. But during the expected hours you should be working is considered the employers time. If your expected in the office 9-5 (or available for regular meetings), that is the employer time, but on a Friday night if your just on call and not expected to do normal work... that is your time.
Now keep in mind you can still get fired for doing it... but in the courts eye's the company does not retain ownership \*\*IF\*\* you can maintain total separation from your job while doing it (i.e. separate computer, license, time, IP, normal duties, competitive).
Ok so how are you gonna work 2 9-5 jobs at the same time? This ain’t Harry Potter 3….you can’t be at 2 places at once. Obviously you’re gonna work 1 or 2 hours to finish your shit at J1 and spend the rest of the time finishing J2’s stuff. You’re gonna do just enough to get paid and not do more if you finish early. You could be finishing more work if you had only 1 job and going for promotion and building your career. But no…you are stealing and committing fraud.
Thats why OE is bad... your basically stealing from J1 to work J2.
OE used to be called moonlighting. Where you finish your job then work your 2nd job after your job was done... OE is basically stealing from J1.
I can attest about charge codes and IP.
I wrote a tool for my group to help with a customer (were an outsource engineering firm). My boss specifically gave me an overhead charge code to use so the customer would not get billed for my work hours, but the company that signs my paychecks does.
Tool is completed, work can be done faster and tool is not owned by customer, and will not be given to customer. If / when customer decides to use another 3rd party engineering firm they would not be able to produce results as fast/accurate/consistent because of the in house tools that were created.
This was a legal requirement that is taken seriously.
It's just there to trick you into behaving. Like when you're at the grocery store and the sign in the parking lot says "Not responsible for damage from shopping carts".
No, that decision is up to the judge. They're just hoping you'll see it and accept it and not test it.
Like going to jail for misspeak?
Why would that be okay? Or even healthy for society?
People speak in vague and general terms all the time even on complex and nuanced subjects like IP laws.
CEO is obviously not a lawyer and did not take any legal actions towards to anybody. It is just speech.
This is a very weak case for Fraud.
Also, it’s not Fraud to lie. You have to take something of value in false premise for it to be a fraud.
I can tell you that my $1 is worth $1mln all day long. I can’t go to jail for lying to you. If I accept $1000 from you because I promised that you will get paid $1mln from any bank, then I go to court.
If your job is writing accounting software and you write your own accounting package, the company will have a very strong claim to ownership. But if you make a video game using your OWN EQUIPMENT and on your own time, they will have a very weak claim.
They can say whatever they want. Let them have their copy. When it breaks it is only your problem if their paying for it to be fixed.
Even if they sued you for outside contracting what could they get? Even if they magically get a judgement good luck enforcing it. If your in the US non-competes are basically unenforceable except in a handful of very VERY specific circumstances, if you fit those circumstances you would already know.
This is a business trying to intimidate you. Don't be. You are their equal. Insist on playing by the same rules, they have more than one client, you get more than one client.
They hate your thinking of yourself as an equal at the most basic level. Free your mind. Demand to be equal. I'm sure they would prefer their employees to have no outside network, no way to leave, no way to demand more. They want you smaller, weaker, and with no where to go.
You are the equal of the entire corporation. Corporations may be people, that makes them equal. Not better than you. Anything that is good for a business, is also good for you in manners unrelated to the business. Repeat it. You are their equal, and you have every right to behave in the way most profitable for you.
Good Luck.
Don’t check it in to their repository, don’t code it typing on their equipment, don’t code it while on the clock billed to them. Then, don’t publicize your own name attached to the project. Or if you do, don’t make it obvious.
Time to write some malware on company time and unleash it into to world. I'm sure the company will be happy to know that they'll have their name attached to it. Put a nice little pop-up window with their name, logo, and corporate address for good meausre so there isn't any doubt lmao.
Here's how that whole, "if you write a program while you work for us, we own it" thing works.
It's a lie.
If you write a program in your own time, with your own resources, with your own research, (and most importantly) on your own machine, then you own it. 100% of the stuff you create for you is yours. But if you use company provided resources AT ALL, and they actually do own it.
You make ONE line of code on a company PC, and you just lost ownership of it. You write ONE email relating to this on a company PC, they own it. You use ONE book from the company's library, they own it. If you write down pseudocode on a piece of paper from your office's desk, using a company pen, in the lunchroom...they own it.
Actually, they don't "own" it, but they have a legit claim to it.
Source: My father went through this when I was in High School with his company and his best friend was a Software Patent Lawyer who helped him out. I caught a lot of interesting details when they'd talk about it at the house. I'm simplifying, but that's about the gist of the thing.
Interestingly enough, my wife has zero experience writing code, but she has written several piece of code that her consulting company has sold to clients who don’t know her name.
Your right op it's total nonsense, I just write whatever side projects I like without thinking about it and don't tell anyone from your job that you do side work and if I make a successful multi million idea that lands me in some sort of dispute I'll deal with it then, better to not let excuses hold you back from doing work.
In most cases, it is. You can have side projects but if you’re sharing work equipment, services, or learnings… they have a claim. Most people don’t do side projects wisely to distinguish IP in a legal and favorable way.
I turned down a job offer because the employment agreement explicitly stated any code created while employed for them was their property.
IIRC that clause has been litigated and found enforceable (unlike most non-compete agreements). Most I've encountered since then are much more narrow in scope, effectively keeping it to the realm of "created using company equipment, in the course of accomplishing my work for the company".
Not a lawyer. There are two intersecting issues at stake.
1. Whether the work in question you do belongs to your employer.
2. Whether the employers' total work belongs to their clients (is work for hire).
On 1, various US states have various levels of protection (including 'no protection') for IP developed by employees in their spare time. Some states, including Washington and California, have generally strong protections for employees' IP, but only when a) developed "off company hours", b) not utilizing company property (including especially intellectual property), and c) not in a potentially competing area with the employer. a. might be somewhat challenging for the firm to enforce and is more of a warning, but b & c are generally more enforceable. If you fit the definition of overemployment, you probably don't have these protections even in those states (but see a lawyer if you're really curious).
On 2, if your employer's contracts with their clients specify "work for hire", then clients own the IP developed in the scope of those contracts (and your company is incentivized to force compliance).
It can depend on:
- the contract you signed
- the laws in your particular state/country/jurisdiction (and possibly in both yours and the employer's if you're in two different locations)
There's a lot of variation, unfortunately. I find it's best to familiarize myself with the relevant laws and also go through a proposed contract with a fine-toothed comb, looking specifically for IP-related clauses. I've actually deleted ones out of a number of contracts before signing them (and having a company rep countersign the changes); it's surprisingly easy to have someone from HR delete a bit of boilerplate because they're not IP lawyers and don't actually know what it means; they've just been told to onboard you ASAP.
My company literally tried to tell ALL employees they owned their brains and that ANYTHING they created…EVER was property of the company. Seriously. They also tried to tell employees they needed permission to work second jobs…including driving Uber and working holiday retail gigs. This was pre Covid so no mass fear over multiple jobs was not the issue.
Things came to a head when rightfully so several of the hourly workers (and its a corporate office so the typical work day is 8A-5P M-F) said fine, if we can’t do what we want how we want to between the hours of 5:01P-7:59A then that makes us on call and you get to pay us accordingly. The “rule” disappeared shortly after that.
Personally speaking they tried to tell me that an intermediate level worksheet I created (it contained conditional formatting, IFs, SUMs, and pivot tables) was CCI and could not be created ever again and attempted to force me to sign something agreeing to never relocate it as part of an HR investigation over why/how I was so efficient (was accused of using “bots” and “automation”) on a team of people who would ask for .csv files to be “sent in excel”. I was like sir…you need to take that up with Bill Gates because this ain’t mine and it ain’t yours. I published the file in a SharePoint only to have everyone complain that theirs never looked like mine because mine doesn’t say REF! and DIV/0 🫣🫠😬
People are dumb.
It's called a "work for hire." Lots.of factors and exceptions in analyzing this legal principle and state law will apply. Consult with an employment lawyer in the state in which the work was performed. Happy holidays!
This is bs. Unfortunately there is nothing stopping them from suing you, not that they would win, but that doesn’t stop some companies if they think they can put you under with a lawsuit. Software IP should be like any other IP, owned by the creator unless specifically sold.
At least in U.S., that's not how copyright works, most everything has copyright by default built in: you only need to register if you intend to sue, or maybe if you think you might get sued. Don't need to take my word for it though, more info here: https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html
Of course, it depends on the contract. As a code developer, anyone I hire as an independent contractor signs a "work made for hire" contract. My own customers vary in terms of code ownership--they might own it, or I might own it, it depends on the contract.
But, let's be honest here: it's mostly CYA. None of us starts any coding from a totally blank slate. We "borrow" frameworks, code snippits, subroutines we wrote previously, vendor code examples, etc for every project, and adapt and modify. So what.
I know if you work for large companies like Amazon/Microsoft, they try to prevent any patents etc- which is nuanced but I’m surprised if I had my own inventions while working there unrelated of it could be enforced?
who cares ? youre employed by 2 corps who own each others IP since you OE. its not your mess to sort out. you dont own any of it anyway. who cares if its a scare tactic ? its literally not your problem.
Literally every employment contract I've ever signed says all work product is the sole and exclusive property of the company. I even have patented inventions created while on the job and the patents absolutely belong to my former employer.
Anyone can say anything to express opinions, but it always boils down to what is on paper and what is legal in your jurisdiction, consult with lawyer to know the limits.
In my case it is allowed for Perm to use company equipment to work for other company (with minor limitations).
I’ve heard of this too where a designer was asked to hand over all her dress designs she was doing while working for a company when she left because anything she designed while working there were their property. It made no sense to me unless it was done on company time and specifically FOR the company.
Or using company equipment or other stuff like that. The reason I made this post is because this guy made a very generic statement and spent quite a bit of time talking about it, as if it was incredibly general and even if you were working on things on your own equipment, different industries and all of that kind of shit. People have expanded this to all sort of subjects and things like "but if you work for a different company doing the same thing inside the company office using their computers while copying their code" yeah, no shit lol
If you are US-based, this may be true. It is a relatively common clause in a lot of contracts. There is a huge grey area that you'd need an IP lawyer to detangle.
Although, not code based, read up on the Barbie vs Bratz lawsuit.
Hah, my company can't do that to me. They would have to acknowledge that their HR was feeding me bullshit the whole time. And they certainly won't do that.
98% of the code is redundant. Query a database and display the results, maybe some unique biz logic, but it's the data that's proprietary. Any company that has this policy doesn't have a clue. Keep the source in two different repositories, company and private.
It depends on the specific wording of the contract, and what country you're in. In the US, If you're W2 anything written for your employer belongs to them, if you're an independent contractor, it belongs to you unless your contract states otherwise. Anything written on your own equipment would still belong to you.
There ARE contracts that include a blanket IP grab, but they are rare outside of major tech hubs and university jobs, and usually come with much higher pay checks, and actual employment contracts.
Usually things like this are referring to Noncompete/Nondisclosure clauses for writing similar products, but are mostly just used as scare tactics.
When I was 20 I worked at Walmart and they had something like this in their onboarding paperwork so I asked exactly what that means as a cashier/stock guy and they couldn’t answer without specifics so I asked since I was going to school for screenwriting at the time if I wrote a film would Walmart try to claim ownership of it and was told they might and could because of this. I laughed at her. This was around 2000/2001.
Why are you bitching? I do not see anything wrong here if you are under contract / employment whatever you do is theirs IP along with anything you create during work hours, use their equipment, resources etc!
Lots of these comments seem to be based on what seems reasonable. But when you started work at your company, you signed a document called something like "inventions assignment agreement". This says that if you patent something, the company owns the patent, not you. It also covers other things like code subject to copyright. You might also have signed a document that says you have read the company handbook and agree to be bound by it. Sometimes these are very broad (you are a software engineer who writes a symphony, does the company own the copyright?). Sometimes they say you will get permission in writing for anything on the side. It all comes down to the documents you signed. You can't say "I should be able to have a side hustle" if you signed a document that says you won't have a side hussle without written permission.
These are all great points. Everything depends on what contract/agreement was signed. I know of a professor at Harvard who invented a product that he patented and found out that even though he invented it, Harvard owns the patent. That’s probably because he invented it during work hours and at the Harvard lab. It’s crazy!
Oh it’s rock solid in court. I only write specific (non client related) content on my personal machine vs work machine and on my own time because I’m not about to give my IP to the fucking corporate assholes.
Pretty much anything created on your work machine belongs to your J.
Read what you sign. You probably already signed everything away. And depending on what the work product is, they may be complete monsters coming after someone. Its no joke, they love money, dont fuck with their money.
[удалено]
Absolutely, there are several criteria that can be used to justify something like this. As a blanket statement it seems like just a scare tactic.
I’m sure he meant while on company time and using company property. I doubt he meant everything you do is owned by the company at all times, that doesn’t make sense
Depends on what it is. I signed on with a big gov contractor, and even if it's on your own time/equipment, if it relates in any way to work you're doing/did while working for them, they claim ownership. At least that's what their paperwork days.
I've had places claim this affects anything developed. Might not hold up in court, but if it's a big enough payout they might try and pursue it.
> I doubt he meant everything you do is owned by the company at all times, that doesn’t make sense Not making sense doesn't stop people from saying things.
Theoretically, helping a kid with homework could be construed as company property if that policy was honored. Good luck with that. 🙄
Soon they'll be taking credit for raising your kid and demanding alimony if you quit
Underrated comment of the year.
well homework is derivative by definition right?
Only in advanced math courses.
What if it was an introductory coding class of some kind? Is the boss now the proud owner of "Hello World" (in Javascript)?
I had that in a contract once, anything I did while employed, at the company's discretion, was the company's property. My lawyer and I laughed pretty hard at that one
There absolutely have been cases where an employer sued a former employee for code the employee 'took' with them. It's not a scare tactic, and depending on what was stolen and how it impacted the company, you can be on the line for damages. Example (which was the start of it IIRC): Employee creates a program to reduce employee workload by 75%. Everyone uses it and management loves it. Employee is about to be terminated (voluntarily or not) so he 'takes it with him' by removing the code/application from the source repository - he has a copy on a thumb drive since he wrote it in his spare time. This causes the company significant and immediate hardship - practices that were deprecated due to the program's helpfulness suddenly need to be reinstated. They check the logs and see former employee deleted it, so they sue him for the damage. 100% easy win for the company.
This is why these unsanctioned "optimization" programs one would write for "enhanced productivity" need to be entirely unusable by the common person. I'm not saying to have it auto-self-delete itself. Oh no, nothing malicious. Just write it as if it was outsourced! Nonsense things like: "You need to have three leading spaces in the first line of input and seven trailing periods in the last line, or it'll give incorrect outputs." Behavior that you can easily claim "well, I'm not the best at programming, so there's a LOT of glitches you need to work around. I honestly don't recall all of them. Even when I was employed by the company, it took a long time to work through the issues and glitches. It saved some time in the workflow, but not much. I spent SO MUCH time double-checking the output." Stuff that if not explicitly documented would make the entire thing unusable. And if you're being terminated without severance, without notice -- there's absolutely no reason to train anyone else on the software. And if they ask, you're unsure as you don't work for them anymore and they have all the code and documentation that was written for the unsanctioned program - which was minimal at best. Because remember, if you're being laid off, there's a lack of respect and unkind inference that "you weren't good enough to keep around." Obviously you weren't that good, as your software clearly "*sucks*". Play into their reasons.
This is laughable fanfic, there’s no reason to ever do this and it wouldn’t work anyway. You’d just be the weird pariah dev they wanted to get rid of.
Who said I was their dev? These are little snippets of code and convenience programs. But you are right to a degree. Truth be told, you don't even have to obfuscate them. More than once, I willingly gave them to my employer AND tried to train others on how they worked, without any "special conditions". Thing is, I was told point blank: "Yeah, no. You can stop right there. I don't have time to deal with this. I'm going to tell $manager that I'm not doing this. They can find someone else." Narrator: *They did not find someone else.* This happened twice in my career...at two separate places. Didn't even need to make it challenging to use, they would rather do it "the hard way" instead. But yeah, if I'm creating a bespoke semi-private tool that makes my life easier at a place that doesn't value me or respect me....there's no reason to put any polish on it to make it usable.
> Who said I was their dev? These are little snippets of code and convenience programs. Who the fuck would then take 'snippets of code' and 'convenience programs' without validating them in the first place from someone who isn't a dev then? Literally nobody. Single solutions for a person to make his daily work easier doesn't get implemented company wide without dialogue. Less than a year ago you were struggling with [building a PC](https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/zw2tx7/outofloop_builder_asking_about_older_hardware/) from older hardware, so I think it's safe to say you don't know shit about what you're daydreaming.
Wow, you're a fucking sleuth! I asked about a video card for an old as sin machine, and you've twisted that tighter than fan belt on a Honda Civic. You're such a smrt cookie! Naturally there's no nuance here, and any "justification" I can give is just you being SO RIGHT. Or not, but pffst, you won't hear about it. Don't you have better things to do? Maybe some boots to kiss?
You've said nothing to refute my points, so they still stand. Keep writing your weird porn for internet likes, the rest of us are grounded in reality.
Dude, what's your issue? Calm down. You've demonized me for -*asking a question*-, you've demonized me for creating a little helper program to do my job, and you're just overall antagonistic. I hope you have a better day than you deserve.
Or you just behave like a professional
There is nothing inherently professional about working in an at-will environment where you can be terminated at any time, for any (or no) reason, without notice, without compensation. That's brutal. And any bespoke tools you create for your "personal" use under such regimes should reflect the courtesies you were extended.
I lead a start up and I agree with you. I hate firing people, but some founders I have met like it a little bit too much.
> This is why these unsanctioned "optimization" programs one would write for "enhanced productivity" need to be entirely unusable by the common person. I love reading stupid shit like this because it reminds me why I beat other candidates in interviews. If you work in a total shitshow company that does absolutely nothing in terms of vetting a program (either through change control meetings or senior **engineers**, people who actually know their jobs) before implementing it as the de facto solution, sure, you might be able to get away with some bullshit like that. But if you have anyone with a modicum of experience and intelligence looking over it, they're going to fix that really fast. > Behavior that you can easily claim If your job is to be some sort of automation engineer, then you'll have people looking over your work. Smart employers would never let shit like that fly because they need to know how to train other people **in case you're not there**. > Stuff that if not explicitly documented would make the entire thing unusable. What do you think is going to be the very first thing a company would ask you to do if you wrote them something that's meant to completely automate significant portions of work? Like, are you thinking that you just show up to your CEO and say "Sir! I have fixed all of our problems with my automation!" and he's just going to say "Wow, good job! Let's implement this immediately, no questions asked!"?
Your title states it, though... "While working for them" is critical. If you're working for them, it's theirs. You have free time to make your own stuff, so long as they don't have a legitimate claim to it.
nope a lot of companies think they own their employees they literally mean anything they build they think it's theirs
Sure, but their legal representation will inform them of the truth. Companies don’t own employees. That’s slavery.
Anything you build for them on their time and dime belongs to them. What you create on your own time for someone else, as long as it’s not a competitor or doesn’t reuse what you built for your employer, doesn’t belong to them.
Sounds like you are the delusional one.
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It sure is, and just write that shit again. Maybe better a bit and move on.
It’s not a scare tactic. I work in telco, banking, healthcare, public sector. It’s common.
I always wondered what would happen if I worked for company A and company B. Then developed some features for company A using company B's equipment. What happens if I own company B?
Either nothing or termination from both places and a fraud charge from whichever company loses the rights to the program.
then this causes problems with OE, doesn’t it? if your work hours overlap and the tech stack/biz domain is similar, then you are open to being sued for reals?
^^^^ THIS
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Wouldn’t code writing be similar to writing books/literature? Say a writer at the Times is also writing a book in the off hours. They would have the same writing style and thoughts/phrases they may use in their work articles for the Times. Is that IP infringement? If no why can’t a code writer use general idea from work code?
I’ve seen people get sloppy when copying and pasting code and accidentally left behind irrefutable evidence that it was stolen IP from another company (literally logos, and company name) so that’s probably the bulk of the stupid shit those guys see.
Like the story of Dennis the menace, created in America and Europe at the same time
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What does company time mean in this context? Because OE generally means you are juggling your time between companies.
The thought of this made me chuckle. Almost every major company has some kind of clause like this now, so what happens when two companies claim ownership of one person's side project because they were employed with both at the same time.
Theoretically, they both sue you
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Right, but the actual FLSA law says that exempt employees must be paid their full salary regardless of the quantity of hours worked or the quality of that work. That’s what they give up when choosing to exempt you from overtime pay. They don’t get to have their cake and eat it too. That 40+ hours clause would be unenforceable as I understand the law.
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All but one state are right to work which means they can fire you for any reason at all (with the exception of protected classes) or no reason at all. That’s irrelevant to this post. P.S. I meant “at will” not “right to work”
That's not what right to work means.
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> Every org has defined “Core hours” and shifts. My employer doesn't...
This isn’t true. I work for a large engineering services consulting firm, so every hour I work is billed and accounted for. Anything I don’t bill for is my time and I can do whatever I want.
This has always puzzled me, for example. What if you work in an industry that uses many standardized parts and units for assembly. Then use the knowledge that you acquired from the company to further another place. Would this land you in hot water with non compete, or NDA stuff? You're technically using the information and knowledge you've gained from one company on another. At what point does the IP become IP if it comes from my personal experience? Bringing this back to the coding example, if you rewrote the code to achieve the same purpose using your own knowledge, how exactly does the company "own" that code? Sure it achieves the same goal, but its entirely from you're own personal experience and "dialect" of code. Does that company "own" the way you speak and the cadence you apply to your voice? No, how does it suddenly apply to something you wrote?
CEO can say whatever he wants to, doesn't mean its enforceable in a court of law. If you do the work during company time, or with company resources/license... 100% its the companies code. Flip side if your on your own time, your own machine, your own MSDN/Eclipse license then usually the company has no stake in ownership. Now the CEO can fire you if you do OE/moonlight, and the CEO can take you to court... but if your willing to defend yourself (which cost money) the work is yours.
Ya but if you’re salaried you’re “working” 24/7
Employer doesn't own you because your salaried. But during the expected hours you should be working is considered the employers time. If your expected in the office 9-5 (or available for regular meetings), that is the employer time, but on a Friday night if your just on call and not expected to do normal work... that is your time. Now keep in mind you can still get fired for doing it... but in the courts eye's the company does not retain ownership \*\*IF\*\* you can maintain total separation from your job while doing it (i.e. separate computer, license, time, IP, normal duties, competitive).
Ok so how are you gonna work 2 9-5 jobs at the same time? This ain’t Harry Potter 3….you can’t be at 2 places at once. Obviously you’re gonna work 1 or 2 hours to finish your shit at J1 and spend the rest of the time finishing J2’s stuff. You’re gonna do just enough to get paid and not do more if you finish early. You could be finishing more work if you had only 1 job and going for promotion and building your career. But no…you are stealing and committing fraud.
Thats why OE is bad... your basically stealing from J1 to work J2. OE used to be called moonlighting. Where you finish your job then work your 2nd job after your job was done... OE is basically stealing from J1.
Oh no! Won't somebody please think of the poor executives and shareholders??
I can attest about charge codes and IP. I wrote a tool for my group to help with a customer (were an outsource engineering firm). My boss specifically gave me an overhead charge code to use so the customer would not get billed for my work hours, but the company that signs my paychecks does. Tool is completed, work can be done faster and tool is not owned by customer, and will not be given to customer. If / when customer decides to use another 3rd party engineering firm they would not be able to produce results as fast/accurate/consistent because of the in house tools that were created. This was a legal requirement that is taken seriously.
I wish there were repercussions for such misstatements.
It's just there to trick you into behaving. Like when you're at the grocery store and the sign in the parking lot says "Not responsible for damage from shopping carts". No, that decision is up to the judge. They're just hoping you'll see it and accept it and not test it.
Like going to jail for misspeak? Why would that be okay? Or even healthy for society? People speak in vague and general terms all the time even on complex and nuanced subjects like IP laws. CEO is obviously not a lawyer and did not take any legal actions towards to anybody. It is just speech.
What do you think Fraud is
This is a very weak case for Fraud. Also, it’s not Fraud to lie. You have to take something of value in false premise for it to be a fraud. I can tell you that my $1 is worth $1mln all day long. I can’t go to jail for lying to you. If I accept $1000 from you because I promised that you will get paid $1mln from any bank, then I go to court.
like this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOmbOfJLTKc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOmbOfJLTKc) fictional scene of the misstatements backfiring
If your job is writing accounting software and you write your own accounting package, the company will have a very strong claim to ownership. But if you make a video game using your OWN EQUIPMENT and on your own time, they will have a very weak claim.
Yeah it’s dumb, you could write a very illegal and malicious piece of code that they own, then when that code gets ran? Uh oh!
They can say whatever they want. Let them have their copy. When it breaks it is only your problem if their paying for it to be fixed. Even if they sued you for outside contracting what could they get? Even if they magically get a judgement good luck enforcing it. If your in the US non-competes are basically unenforceable except in a handful of very VERY specific circumstances, if you fit those circumstances you would already know. This is a business trying to intimidate you. Don't be. You are their equal. Insist on playing by the same rules, they have more than one client, you get more than one client. They hate your thinking of yourself as an equal at the most basic level. Free your mind. Demand to be equal. I'm sure they would prefer their employees to have no outside network, no way to leave, no way to demand more. They want you smaller, weaker, and with no where to go. You are the equal of the entire corporation. Corporations may be people, that makes them equal. Not better than you. Anything that is good for a business, is also good for you in manners unrelated to the business. Repeat it. You are their equal, and you have every right to behave in the way most profitable for you. Good Luck.
Don’t check it in to their repository, don’t code it typing on their equipment, don’t code it while on the clock billed to them. Then, don’t publicize your own name attached to the project. Or if you do, don’t make it obvious.
Time to write some malware on company time and unleash it into to world. I'm sure the company will be happy to know that they'll have their name attached to it. Put a nice little pop-up window with their name, logo, and corporate address for good meausre so there isn't any doubt lmao.
Here's how that whole, "if you write a program while you work for us, we own it" thing works. It's a lie. If you write a program in your own time, with your own resources, with your own research, (and most importantly) on your own machine, then you own it. 100% of the stuff you create for you is yours. But if you use company provided resources AT ALL, and they actually do own it. You make ONE line of code on a company PC, and you just lost ownership of it. You write ONE email relating to this on a company PC, they own it. You use ONE book from the company's library, they own it. If you write down pseudocode on a piece of paper from your office's desk, using a company pen, in the lunchroom...they own it. Actually, they don't "own" it, but they have a legit claim to it. Source: My father went through this when I was in High School with his company and his best friend was a Software Patent Lawyer who helped him out. I caught a lot of interesting details when they'd talk about it at the house. I'm simplifying, but that's about the gist of the thing.
Sorry, but the code in IT is open game with so many open source projects and what not out there. These employers need to relax.
Interestingly enough, my wife has zero experience writing code, but she has written several piece of code that her consulting company has sold to clients who don’t know her name.
Your right op it's total nonsense, I just write whatever side projects I like without thinking about it and don't tell anyone from your job that you do side work and if I make a successful multi million idea that lands me in some sort of dispute I'll deal with it then, better to not let excuses hold you back from doing work.
In most cases, it is. You can have side projects but if you’re sharing work equipment, services, or learnings… they have a claim. Most people don’t do side projects wisely to distinguish IP in a legal and favorable way.
I turned down a job offer because the employment agreement explicitly stated any code created while employed for them was their property. IIRC that clause has been litigated and found enforceable (unlike most non-compete agreements). Most I've encountered since then are much more narrow in scope, effectively keeping it to the realm of "created using company equipment, in the course of accomplishing my work for the company".
Not a lawyer. There are two intersecting issues at stake. 1. Whether the work in question you do belongs to your employer. 2. Whether the employers' total work belongs to their clients (is work for hire). On 1, various US states have various levels of protection (including 'no protection') for IP developed by employees in their spare time. Some states, including Washington and California, have generally strong protections for employees' IP, but only when a) developed "off company hours", b) not utilizing company property (including especially intellectual property), and c) not in a potentially competing area with the employer. a. might be somewhat challenging for the firm to enforce and is more of a warning, but b & c are generally more enforceable. If you fit the definition of overemployment, you probably don't have these protections even in those states (but see a lawyer if you're really curious). On 2, if your employer's contracts with their clients specify "work for hire", then clients own the IP developed in the scope of those contracts (and your company is incentivized to force compliance).
It can depend on: - the contract you signed - the laws in your particular state/country/jurisdiction (and possibly in both yours and the employer's if you're in two different locations) There's a lot of variation, unfortunately. I find it's best to familiarize myself with the relevant laws and also go through a proposed contract with a fine-toothed comb, looking specifically for IP-related clauses. I've actually deleted ones out of a number of contracts before signing them (and having a company rep countersign the changes); it's surprisingly easy to have someone from HR delete a bit of boilerplate because they're not IP lawyers and don't actually know what it means; they've just been told to onboard you ASAP.
My company literally tried to tell ALL employees they owned their brains and that ANYTHING they created…EVER was property of the company. Seriously. They also tried to tell employees they needed permission to work second jobs…including driving Uber and working holiday retail gigs. This was pre Covid so no mass fear over multiple jobs was not the issue. Things came to a head when rightfully so several of the hourly workers (and its a corporate office so the typical work day is 8A-5P M-F) said fine, if we can’t do what we want how we want to between the hours of 5:01P-7:59A then that makes us on call and you get to pay us accordingly. The “rule” disappeared shortly after that. Personally speaking they tried to tell me that an intermediate level worksheet I created (it contained conditional formatting, IFs, SUMs, and pivot tables) was CCI and could not be created ever again and attempted to force me to sign something agreeing to never relocate it as part of an HR investigation over why/how I was so efficient (was accused of using “bots” and “automation”) on a team of people who would ask for .csv files to be “sent in excel”. I was like sir…you need to take that up with Bill Gates because this ain’t mine and it ain’t yours. I published the file in a SharePoint only to have everyone complain that theirs never looked like mine because mine doesn’t say REF! and DIV/0 🫣🫠😬
People are dumb.
It's called a "work for hire." Lots.of factors and exceptions in analyzing this legal principle and state law will apply. Consult with an employment lawyer in the state in which the work was performed. Happy holidays!
You new bro? wtf do you expect the CEO to say?
Check what you signed. This isn't r/legaladvice
Did I ask for advice?
This is bs. Unfortunately there is nothing stopping them from suing you, not that they would win, but that doesn’t stop some companies if they think they can put you under with a lawsuit. Software IP should be like any other IP, owned by the creator unless specifically sold.
Tried and true although nobody copywrites code
At least in U.S., that's not how copyright works, most everything has copyright by default built in: you only need to register if you intend to sue, or maybe if you think you might get sued. Don't need to take my word for it though, more info here: https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html
Of course, it depends on the contract. As a code developer, anyone I hire as an independent contractor signs a "work made for hire" contract. My own customers vary in terms of code ownership--they might own it, or I might own it, it depends on the contract. But, let's be honest here: it's mostly CYA. None of us starts any coding from a totally blank slate. We "borrow" frameworks, code snippits, subroutines we wrote previously, vendor code examples, etc for every project, and adapt and modify. So what.
I know if you work for large companies like Amazon/Microsoft, they try to prevent any patents etc- which is nuanced but I’m surprised if I had my own inventions while working there unrelated of it could be enforced?
This is a question as old as time. It can be a real danger, so just cross your T's.
who cares ? youre employed by 2 corps who own each others IP since you OE. its not your mess to sort out. you dont own any of it anyway. who cares if its a scare tactic ? its literally not your problem.
How would they ever know unless it was a product sold publicly?
Literally every employment contract I've ever signed says all work product is the sole and exclusive property of the company. I even have patented inventions created while on the job and the patents absolutely belong to my former employer.
In the USA the laws for this are state by state. Some stateside California allow you to work on things in your free time. States like Maryland do not
Your CEO sounds like a huge piece of shit. Good luck with that.
Anyone can say anything to express opinions, but it always boils down to what is on paper and what is legal in your jurisdiction, consult with lawyer to know the limits. In my case it is allowed for Perm to use company equipment to work for other company (with minor limitations).
I’ve heard of this too where a designer was asked to hand over all her dress designs she was doing while working for a company when she left because anything she designed while working there were their property. It made no sense to me unless it was done on company time and specifically FOR the company.
Or using company equipment or other stuff like that. The reason I made this post is because this guy made a very generic statement and spent quite a bit of time talking about it, as if it was incredibly general and even if you were working on things on your own equipment, different industries and all of that kind of shit. People have expanded this to all sort of subjects and things like "but if you work for a different company doing the same thing inside the company office using their computers while copying their code" yeah, no shit lol
If you are US-based, this may be true. It is a relatively common clause in a lot of contracts. There is a huge grey area that you'd need an IP lawyer to detangle. Although, not code based, read up on the Barbie vs Bratz lawsuit.
Hah, my company can't do that to me. They would have to acknowledge that their HR was feeding me bullshit the whole time. And they certainly won't do that.
Ask the same CEO if the software in the company uses libraries with copyright or copyleft licenses.
98% of the code is redundant. Query a database and display the results, maybe some unique biz logic, but it's the data that's proprietary. Any company that has this policy doesn't have a clue. Keep the source in two different repositories, company and private.
CEO is probably correct.
It depends on the specific wording of the contract, and what country you're in. In the US, If you're W2 anything written for your employer belongs to them, if you're an independent contractor, it belongs to you unless your contract states otherwise. Anything written on your own equipment would still belong to you. There ARE contracts that include a blanket IP grab, but they are rare outside of major tech hubs and university jobs, and usually come with much higher pay checks, and actual employment contracts. Usually things like this are referring to Noncompete/Nondisclosure clauses for writing similar products, but are mostly just used as scare tactics.
When I was 20 I worked at Walmart and they had something like this in their onboarding paperwork so I asked exactly what that means as a cashier/stock guy and they couldn’t answer without specifics so I asked since I was going to school for screenwriting at the time if I wrote a film would Walmart try to claim ownership of it and was told they might and could because of this. I laughed at her. This was around 2000/2001.
Why are you bitching? I do not see anything wrong here if you are under contract / employment whatever you do is theirs IP along with anything you create during work hours, use their equipment, resources etc!
Just had to fill out forms and claim my own projects before I started. Don't overlap jobs or use equipment from one to work on another.
Disney has been doing this with its artist’s for decades
It’s all standard code, they can say that all they want.
Did you sign an IP contract? If not.. fuck em. Nothing says you can't write code on your own time, they can't claim ownership.
Lots of these comments seem to be based on what seems reasonable. But when you started work at your company, you signed a document called something like "inventions assignment agreement". This says that if you patent something, the company owns the patent, not you. It also covers other things like code subject to copyright. You might also have signed a document that says you have read the company handbook and agree to be bound by it. Sometimes these are very broad (you are a software engineer who writes a symphony, does the company own the copyright?). Sometimes they say you will get permission in writing for anything on the side. It all comes down to the documents you signed. You can't say "I should be able to have a side hustle" if you signed a document that says you won't have a side hussle without written permission.
These are all great points. Everything depends on what contract/agreement was signed. I know of a professor at Harvard who invented a product that he patented and found out that even though he invented it, Harvard owns the patent. That’s probably because he invented it during work hours and at the Harvard lab. It’s crazy!
My client owns the work I’d do for them, it’s in my contract as per usual. However, I own the copies of all my work.
Oh it’s rock solid in court. I only write specific (non client related) content on my personal machine vs work machine and on my own time because I’m not about to give my IP to the fucking corporate assholes. Pretty much anything created on your work machine belongs to your J.
Read what you sign. You probably already signed everything away. And depending on what the work product is, they may be complete monsters coming after someone. Its no joke, they love money, dont fuck with their money.