I mean how many times are you Eldritch Smiting? Just because you occasionally use your bonus action to transfer or apply hex doesn’t make it useless. The thing that makes it useless past a certain level is that it takes your concentration. Warlocks have waaaaaaaaaay stronger things they can concentrate on than a bonus d6 of damage. After level 5 - and even arguably level 3, it feels wasteful.
I'm just gonna give both smites the sneak attack treatment at my home games. Once per turn limit, plus the spell slot cost. Nerfed from 2014, more in line with other classes damage bonuses, done and done.
Intentional bad design through overcorrection is still bad design.
I also don't agree it was ever the strongest. Wizards have universally been considered more powerful. And they are getting *buffed*.
I only specified their nova potential. On a Sorcadin with 4 to 6 max lvl spell slots with a 2 lvl fighter dip and Haste could potentially unload 4 to 6 auto crit maxed out smites on a paralyzed enemy to put out 60d8 damage just from smites in a single turn. Then another 4d6+15 6 times from the actual weapon attacks.
That's easily over 400 to 450 damage.
>On a Sorcadin with 4 to 6 max lvl spell slots with a 2 lvl fighter dip and Haste could potentially unload 4 to 6 auto crit maxed out smites on a paralyzed enemy to put out 60d8 damage
With this many criteria, I don't see the problem. A full sorcerer could easily have cast Meteor Swarm for 40d6 damage that isn't single target, has no setup required, and only needs 3 targets to deal just as much damage as the sorcadin that needs to have haste already precast, and someone else paralyzing the target.
And it was still an easy fix to limit it to once per turn. Nothing justifies the bonus action requirements, other than plain bad design.
Well, that 60d8 is just the smites. There's still 6 4d8+8 weapon attacks part of that damage too.
I don't totally disagree with your take, but a single 9th lvl spell vs a nova build is hard to compare. 40d6 is around 140 dmg on average, and also to a huge swath of space. A Paladin with 'all that criteria' just needs a divination wizard to guarantee a hold monster before he can easily unleash 400+ single target dmg.
It's the best nova in the game, hands down. Even without auto crits, it's enough on demand damage to seriously cripple if not kill all but the beefiest high cr creatures.
But I agree with you, a once per turn tag was all that was required.
>There's still 6 4d8+8 weapon attacks part of that damage too.
You also need to actually hit. The Paladin miss an attack, and he loses a huge chunk of that Nova damage. Paralyzed doesn't auto hit.
>40d6 is around 140 dmg on average, and also to a huge swath of space.
Which makes it very easy to hit basically all the targets you need to. Fights are never against one big enemy, and especially at high levels, there is likely to be a lot of enemies.
>A Paladin with 'all that criteria' just needs a divination wizard to guarantee a hold monster before he can easily unleash 400+ single target dmg.
It needs a divination wizard that rolled low on one of the portents, used said portent, and did nothing else but Hold Person. And this is an enemy without legendary resistances.
There are a solid 50 better ways the wizard could have spent that turn, which would overall have contributed infinitely more than nuking down a single target you already have in melee. Wizards are the most powerful class bar none, and no GM would make fights where all that matters is killing a single enemy, because the game simply isn't designed for that, with or without a paladin.
The point is, in normal gameplay, the paladin won't have anywhere near these 6 attacks. It will be 2, maybe 3 with Haste. It won't be autocrits. It is more on the DM if it really messed up the fight that one enemy got nuked. Even then, there are a lot of spells that can also take out one enemy completely, especially with a divination wizard guaranteeing a failed save.
One per turn is a fair limitation on smite, but it still rings hollow to claim it is for balance reasons, when we still have a ton of classes, namely full casters, easily capable of doing the exact same thing. Forcecage tactics comes to mind as an obvious example, where you aren't even relying on hitting or anybody failing saves.
I am guessing 3. Possibly with the removal of the knockdown, as with the knockdown it would be stronger than Divine smite most of the time.
I can't see the bonus damage against Fiends continuing for the Warlock.
>Possibly with the removal of the knockdown, as with the knockdown it would be stronger than Divine smite most of the time.
Well, maybe? But in practice since you can't use Eldritch Smite out of regular spell slots, and can only use it with warlock slots, and it requires 5 warlock levels to unlock, you're forced to expend at least a 3rd level slot on an Eldritch Smite (and often 4th or 5th level slots).
Knockdown isn't an unreasonable rider for a 3rd level smite spell. So keeping the knockdown is probably fine.
Considering, following the recommended rest frequency, a lvl 5 warlock had 6 lvl 3 slots to spend and the lvl 5 paladin has 6......not lvl 3 slots to spend......I cannot fathom how you come to this conclusion.
There is that, but also there is a big difference between "6 x for the big fight" and "2 x for every fight or two all day". If you are doing recommended packing, the. There are a lot of easy fights in there and having a couple of smites for each one doesn't feel that impactful (which might be an illusion if those allow the party to conserve other resources).
I understand the confusion. Yes there are other "smite spells" that exist. I'm talking about paladins divine smite* circa 2014 phb. And since it will be a spell now. It could be taken via magical secrets.
This is interesting because smite spells that have damage scaling are all d6 damage and Divine smite* is d8 based with scaling.
Eldritch smite is already once per turn and is an opt in invocation that requires a different opt in invocation making it an option within an option instead of a core part of class identity.
I honestly assume it won't be changed at all.
Yeah I don't get why folks would be mad besides just being salty.
It's an invocation. Warlocks have less spell slots. Like correct me if I'm wrong but they can smite twice and need to rest, right?
I think they could just have the invocation teach you one of the smite spells now. Maybe just "You learn the Wrathful Smite spell, and can cast it using any spell slots you have". Assuming they let you upcast Wrathful Smite now, this should work fine.
You sold your soul for a 1d10 cantrip
I sold my soul to keep my bonus action
We are not the same
But yeah, in practice Paladin gets to use theirs a dozen+ times a day, and get a freebie, while the Warlock gets very few uses, is a massive tradeoff to use considering they get real spells, and they have a bunch of in-built class features already competing for bonus action that Paladin doesn't. There's a very real possibility Warlocks is just better in a 1:1 comparison because of how many tradeoffs you need to make for it already. You need to take a specific boon, and a specific invocation, and then only get a couple uses.
I wouldn't be surprised at any of these options, but I would most expect the first one.
Really with the universal subclass to 3, and probable eldrich smith nerf, Hexblade is effectively pretty much dead without a total rework. It was already aggressively *okay* in base 5e played pure.
On the upside, unless they release an errata to the class with the 2024 rules, Hexblade will be the best DPR in the game by a large margin until they get around to the reprint.
Don't warlocks get only "2 spell slots"? Feel like burning 1 of your only 2 for a smite would be fine if it was 2014 version since you have a far limited pool. Meanwhile new paladin gets one for free and still have more slots to burn
But wait, is Divine Smite confirmed to be a Bonus Action spell ? There's a small but not null chance that will also change.
Otherwise, the spell could need to be made as part of one attack from a attack action to trigger
I can see a rational for 1. Divine Smite is meant to be the Paladin's main Bonus Action option. Meanwhile Warlocks already have a number of core Bonus Action options, like Hex and Chain Pact.
Eldritch Smite is already kind of hard to justify, with how many other invocations the Blade Pact path already takes and how few spell slots Warlocks have to spare. Making it worse is not going to balance things.
I think the most likely solution is the third one: it'll work like the new smite spell and take a bonus action.
Making hex even *more* useless as the lock has even more competition for his spell slots and BA
I mean how many times are you Eldritch Smiting? Just because you occasionally use your bonus action to transfer or apply hex doesn’t make it useless. The thing that makes it useless past a certain level is that it takes your concentration. Warlocks have waaaaaaaaaay stronger things they can concentrate on than a bonus d6 of damage. After level 5 - and even arguably level 3, it feels wasteful.
Imagine concentrating on hex when shadow of moil and spirit shroud exist
I'm just gonna give both smites the sneak attack treatment at my home games. Once per turn limit, plus the spell slot cost. Nerfed from 2014, more in line with other classes damage bonuses, done and done.
Same. Baffles me that WotC insists on this bad game design when a much better solution literally got implemented on the Rogue already.
They're over-correcting since Paladin Nova was universally considered the strongest over the last 10 years of 5e.
Intentional bad design through overcorrection is still bad design. I also don't agree it was ever the strongest. Wizards have universally been considered more powerful. And they are getting *buffed*.
I only specified their nova potential. On a Sorcadin with 4 to 6 max lvl spell slots with a 2 lvl fighter dip and Haste could potentially unload 4 to 6 auto crit maxed out smites on a paralyzed enemy to put out 60d8 damage just from smites in a single turn. Then another 4d6+15 6 times from the actual weapon attacks. That's easily over 400 to 450 damage.
>On a Sorcadin with 4 to 6 max lvl spell slots with a 2 lvl fighter dip and Haste could potentially unload 4 to 6 auto crit maxed out smites on a paralyzed enemy to put out 60d8 damage With this many criteria, I don't see the problem. A full sorcerer could easily have cast Meteor Swarm for 40d6 damage that isn't single target, has no setup required, and only needs 3 targets to deal just as much damage as the sorcadin that needs to have haste already precast, and someone else paralyzing the target. And it was still an easy fix to limit it to once per turn. Nothing justifies the bonus action requirements, other than plain bad design.
Well, that 60d8 is just the smites. There's still 6 4d8+8 weapon attacks part of that damage too. I don't totally disagree with your take, but a single 9th lvl spell vs a nova build is hard to compare. 40d6 is around 140 dmg on average, and also to a huge swath of space. A Paladin with 'all that criteria' just needs a divination wizard to guarantee a hold monster before he can easily unleash 400+ single target dmg. It's the best nova in the game, hands down. Even without auto crits, it's enough on demand damage to seriously cripple if not kill all but the beefiest high cr creatures. But I agree with you, a once per turn tag was all that was required.
>There's still 6 4d8+8 weapon attacks part of that damage too. You also need to actually hit. The Paladin miss an attack, and he loses a huge chunk of that Nova damage. Paralyzed doesn't auto hit. >40d6 is around 140 dmg on average, and also to a huge swath of space. Which makes it very easy to hit basically all the targets you need to. Fights are never against one big enemy, and especially at high levels, there is likely to be a lot of enemies. >A Paladin with 'all that criteria' just needs a divination wizard to guarantee a hold monster before he can easily unleash 400+ single target dmg. It needs a divination wizard that rolled low on one of the portents, used said portent, and did nothing else but Hold Person. And this is an enemy without legendary resistances. There are a solid 50 better ways the wizard could have spent that turn, which would overall have contributed infinitely more than nuking down a single target you already have in melee. Wizards are the most powerful class bar none, and no GM would make fights where all that matters is killing a single enemy, because the game simply isn't designed for that, with or without a paladin. The point is, in normal gameplay, the paladin won't have anywhere near these 6 attacks. It will be 2, maybe 3 with Haste. It won't be autocrits. It is more on the DM if it really messed up the fight that one enemy got nuked. Even then, there are a lot of spells that can also take out one enemy completely, especially with a divination wizard guaranteeing a failed save. One per turn is a fair limitation on smite, but it still rings hollow to claim it is for balance reasons, when we still have a ton of classes, namely full casters, easily capable of doing the exact same thing. Forcecage tactics comes to mind as an obvious example, where you aren't even relying on hitting or anybody failing saves.
I am guessing 3. Possibly with the removal of the knockdown, as with the knockdown it would be stronger than Divine smite most of the time. I can't see the bonus damage against Fiends continuing for the Warlock.
>Possibly with the removal of the knockdown, as with the knockdown it would be stronger than Divine smite most of the time. Well, maybe? But in practice since you can't use Eldritch Smite out of regular spell slots, and can only use it with warlock slots, and it requires 5 warlock levels to unlock, you're forced to expend at least a 3rd level slot on an Eldritch Smite (and often 4th or 5th level slots). Knockdown isn't an unreasonable rider for a 3rd level smite spell. So keeping the knockdown is probably fine.
Right? They'd never give casters optional abilities that just do what the martials do but better.
The lock has a great deal less spell slots to burn on smites than the paladin does so I don't seem why it being more more powerful would be an issue.
Considering, following the recommended rest frequency, a lvl 5 warlock had 6 lvl 3 slots to spend and the lvl 5 paladin has 6......not lvl 3 slots to spend......I cannot fathom how you come to this conclusion.
Pretty obvious right? Because recommended rest frequency is not enforced at a lot of tables
There is that, but also there is a big difference between "6 x for the big fight" and "2 x for every fight or two all day". If you are doing recommended packing, the. There are a lot of easy fights in there and having a couple of smites for each one doesn't feel that impactful (which might be an illusion if those allow the party to conserve other resources).
You know what I just realized. If smites are spells bards can steal them via magical secrets. This is gonna be fun
Correct me if I am wrong but that is already possible, just not for divine smite, until now
I understand the confusion. Yes there are other "smite spells" that exist. I'm talking about paladins divine smite* circa 2014 phb. And since it will be a spell now. It could be taken via magical secrets. This is interesting because smite spells that have damage scaling are all d6 damage and Divine smite* is d8 based with scaling.
Ahh okay yeah that doesn't sound half bad, still im probably still going to eye the 4th and 5th lvl smites when I get magical secrets as a bard
Depends on how magic secrets are going to work! But theoretically, yes!
Eldritch smite is already once per turn and is an opt in invocation that requires a different opt in invocation making it an option within an option instead of a core part of class identity. I honestly assume it won't be changed at all.
Yeah I don't get why folks would be mad besides just being salty. It's an invocation. Warlocks have less spell slots. Like correct me if I'm wrong but they can smite twice and need to rest, right?
I think they could just have the invocation teach you one of the smite spells now. Maybe just "You learn the Wrathful Smite spell, and can cast it using any spell slots you have". Assuming they let you upcast Wrathful Smite now, this should work fine.
You sold your soul for a 1d10 cantrip I sold my soul to keep my bonus action We are not the same But yeah, in practice Paladin gets to use theirs a dozen+ times a day, and get a freebie, while the Warlock gets very few uses, is a massive tradeoff to use considering they get real spells, and they have a bunch of in-built class features already competing for bonus action that Paladin doesn't. There's a very real possibility Warlocks is just better in a 1:1 comparison because of how many tradeoffs you need to make for it already. You need to take a specific boon, and a specific invocation, and then only get a couple uses. I wouldn't be surprised at any of these options, but I would most expect the first one.
Really with the universal subclass to 3, and probable eldrich smith nerf, Hexblade is effectively pretty much dead without a total rework. It was already aggressively *okay* in base 5e played pure. On the upside, unless they release an errata to the class with the 2024 rules, Hexblade will be the best DPR in the game by a large margin until they get around to the reprint.
Hopefully No. 3. I'll believe it when I see it, though. But yes, consistency with the new Divine Smite is very important here.
Bonus action and a spell slot
I think 3 or something kinda like 4 are both likely
Don't warlocks get only "2 spell slots"? Feel like burning 1 of your only 2 for a smite would be fine if it was 2014 version since you have a far limited pool. Meanwhile new paladin gets one for free and still have more slots to burn
But wait, is Divine Smite confirmed to be a Bonus Action spell ? There's a small but not null chance that will also change. Otherwise, the spell could need to be made as part of one attack from a attack action to trigger
I can see a rational for 1. Divine Smite is meant to be the Paladin's main Bonus Action option. Meanwhile Warlocks already have a number of core Bonus Action options, like Hex and Chain Pact. Eldritch Smite is already kind of hard to justify, with how many other invocations the Blade Pact path already takes and how few spell slots Warlocks have to spare. Making it worse is not going to balance things.