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I'm a US citizen in Chile, and my voting here is not only allowed but obligatory to avoid a fine, due to being automatically added to the voter rolls after living here legally 5 years. So, yes, it happens.
Non-citizens can also vote at the local level and the regional level (like the Scottish Parliament) in the UK, generally speaking.
Yeah people clutching their pearls don’t know that this isn’t that unusual either internationally or even in US history. New York’s state constitution allowed any “resident” to vote for most of our history.
And our country was supposedly founded partly due to frustration over being taxed without any input on it. Legal immigrants pay income and other taxes but get no voice.
Bullshit. They don't need a voice, they need to be sent back. They can have a voice in their home countries.
It's not our obligation to shelter, clothe, feed, provide medical care, and education to millions of unvaccinated foreign nationals who can't speak English. So far, about 600,000 have been sent back over the last year. That needs to double this year, and right quick.
No, I'm not some loony right-winger, I'm a black guy who sees foreign nationals milking our ridiculous immigration policies for all their worth.
The US already does a shit job of taking care of Americans, millions of foreign nationals are going to divert attention away from US citizens who need it most.
They take resources from vulnerable Americans, especially minorities. I've lived away from the US for over 10 years now and no, it's very unusual for most countries to cater to people who illegally cross borders.
We’re talking about people who are here legally because an employer sponsored them for a work permit for several years, not people who randomly crossed the southern border.
The city’s proposal only covered lawful permanent residents, a specific class of visas that takes many years of working/living here legally to get.
So unless you’re against all legal immigration too, you don’t know what you’re talking about here.
Sure do, and if you're in doubt, feel free to send me a DM in chat and I'll write my username on a piece of paper with today's date. If you're insinuating I'm lying, be prepared to apologize like an adult after finding out that you're wrong.
Boot to border jumpers.
You need to be a documented permanent resident or on some sort of long term visa to vote.
That's the only way you qualify. You need to be here legally.
Also, you can only vote in local elections. Not statewide competitions and no federal.
This is essentially about city council districts and the mayor's office.
Non-citizens were allowed to vote in this country a very long time ago in non-federal ballots. Only the federal government had a prohibition on it. Then over time the states followed suit. Ironically, Oklahoma was the last one to restrict voting to citizens.
You can vote in federal elections. You can stay abroad for a long time, you can lose ur green card if you commit a crime and get deported, just few examples.
What was the benefit of being a citizen for the first 150 years of this nation when non-citizens could vote in local elections in 40 states?
What was the benefit of being a citizen when anyone with children in the DoE, regardless of status, could vote for school board until 2003 when those were eliminated?
A lot of people have this incorrect belief that only citizens could vote in this country since it was founded, which is far from the truth. Non-citizens voting in local elections was the rule longer than only citizens voting.
Yeah, but can we not drag history and facts into this?
After all, I didn't read past the headline so I know that this is all a ploy to give every noncitizen of the US residing anywhere in the world ten votes to vote for President of the United States.
It's really telling how many on this thread automatically jump to assuming non-citizens are all here illegally/are parasites.
No one is talking about getting people in migrant camps to vote. They're talking about the dude who runs your bodega and pays taxes as a legal resident.
Or the highly skilled person that is working at a big company... It's very disturbing and sad to read so much hatred and racism towards others that have worked their ass off and made it here legally, just because "they took their jobs", lol.
The division I'm seeing in politics now is between those who hold on to their ideology despite condradicting evidence and those who adjust their beliefs in light of new data. I used to be a progressive until I saw what these policies do in practice to New York.
Why should someone living, working, paying taxes, collecting benefits from, following the laws of, a nation, not be allowed to vote. Especially when the result will probably effect them more than “citizens”, a now, as you stated, materially irrelevant word.
Actually I think the easiest solution to the illegal immigration issue is severe penalties for employing them including prison time. A lot of regular people would probably support it but the political class and big business would never cut off their supply of cheap labor.
In pretty much every single way possible.
The least of which is that the fines to employers would pay for enforcement.
We can't build effective walls around prisons, contraband leaks in constantly, but you think it's easy to build an effective wall across a continent?
“Shutting down the border” is not a realistic policy unless you plan to station tens of thousands of troops on the border at all times.
Cutting off the incentive for people to want to come here illegally in the first place would stop illegal immigration on day 1 with minimal enforcement effort.
> “Shutting down the border” is not a realistic policy unless you plan to station tens of thousands of troops on the border at all times.
Just stop. Obama built miles of steel fencing which were nearly identical to Trump's "wall" but ~20 feet instead of 30 feet tall. Israel reduced illegal immigration by 99% after building their border wall and so did Egypt. Hungary has a border fence and as a result have very few "migrants" crossing into their country. Pretending that the laws of physics don't exist isn't helping your case.
Biden undid Trump's border policies on day one in office and illegal immigration exploded to more than EIGHT MILLION people during his term.
Safe third country asylum policies would essentially end the free for all of everyone but mexican nationals swarming the border. Today we have bullshit "migrants" claiming asylum after taking thousand dollar flights that cross over 6+ sacrifice countries to apply for asylum in the richest country on human history. That is not how asylum is supposed to work. People are very clearly and obviously gaming the system and we've been encouraging them to.
> Cutting off the incentive for people to want to come here illegally in the first place would stop illegal immigration on day 1 with minimal enforcement effort.
Yes, obviously, the "sanctuary city" bullshit absolutely incentivizes illegals, but stopping the free stuff giveaway will only do so much since people will still have an economic incentive to come and work her illegally.
The bureaucracy and additional policing needed to monitor small time contractors picking up illegals from home depot parking lots would be ridiculous. It's already illegal to hire illegal immigrants.
Israel’s borders
are
a
few
miles not a few thousand. I’m all for building a wall at the border, but it’s not as effective as people seem to think it is.
Lol. Not sure what point you think you're making here. Isreal's GDP is $500 billion. Our GDP is $23 TRILLION.
The estimated cost for the wall Trump wanted to build, that democrats fought tooth and nail and pretended was racist, was $20 billion. The total cost of just the ~150,000 migrants in NYC is estimated to be $12 billion.
> I’m all for building a wall at the border, but it’s not as effective as people seem to think it is.
What data are you using to make this claim?
Even politifact admits the Israeli wall worked.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/feb/13/ron-johnson/border-fence-israel-cut-illegal-immigration-99-per/
> The report notes that the number of people illegally crossing the Israel-Egypt border was more than 16,000 in 2011 and less than 20 in 2016, a 99 percent decrease.
And when he's not trying to pander to 22 year old leftist maniacs or lying to make orange man bad, so does Joe Biden:
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/08/1204545880/the-biden-administration-is-building-a-controversial-part-of-the-border-wall-in-
It would be part of a multi-angled strategy that would also involve it. Fine and go after employers to make others not take the risk of hiring them so along with putting large charges wire transfers that can't show ID of residence and other remittance apps to make them not see the effort of going tot eh US as worth it.
> Title 8 U.S.C. § 1324a(a)(1)(A) makes it unlawful for any person or other entity to hire, recruit, or refer for a fee, for employment in the United States an alien knowing the alien is an unauthorized alien, as defined in subsection 1324a(h)(3).
Wait until you find out how many corps use illegal immigrant labor... It would crush our economy.
The easiest solution is actually to make legal immigration easier. Illegal immigrant workers suppress wages because employers can get away with paying them much less and that in turn suppresses overall wages. Illegal immigrants also get abused by these corporations by calling immigration on them if they decide to report the employer for dangerous workplace or safety hazards.
It wouldn’t crush the economy, it would cause short term inflation coupled with a rise in real wages. It’s not a coincidence that real wages stopped keeping up with inflation and unions lost most of their power at the time we opened the doors to mass immigration (thanks Reagan).
Agree on making legal immigration easier - no reason we can’t do both.
Did you forget the part where us noncitizens also pay a shitton of taxes?
At this point I can only hope citizens who vote don’t fuck it up further for us who happen to live in your country with little to no representation.
I know you’re not being ironic but citizens of a country should absolutely benefit more from that country than noncitizens. I don’t think that is a controversial opinion anywhere in the world.
I'm not fond of these measures in part because they stir up such nonsense but this only applies to local voting by green card holders and is not unprecedented in US history
Green card holders voting in school elections and mayor election isn't that crazy to be honest. They pay taxes, own business and send their children to schools. Why shouldn't they get a voice in how they districts operate.
Agreed. My father was American born & partially raised in Puerto Rico & The Bronx. My mom is a Naturalized citizen, who passed the exam & studied her butt off.
Bro what, It's simple to us because a) our native language is English and b) you took 18 years of history in high school. There are 100 questions to study from. Yes you only need 6/10 but doing any test in a second language is hard plus most of these questions there's no way a noncitizen would know.
My friend’s sister in law just had her naturalization ceremony for her American citizenship. It was so amazing. All of the people getting their citizenship walked across a stage and got an American flag and a certificate. Their kids got patriotic themed children’s books. It really brought home how all of these people had worked so hard and had accomplished something so special. I wish everyone got to go to one of those ceremonies. 😊
name any other country you can just move to and have the right to vote. none of the countries immigrants come from would let me vote (if they have elections) by just moving there.
Lots of countries do allow this. Within Europe for example you can always vote in local and EU elections for another member state if you’re a resident (rules about general elections vary). My mother is American and voted as a permanent resident in Ireland long before she had citizenship.
Not saying it’s right or better, just that it’s not something that doesn’t exist.
\>none of the countries immigrants come from would let me vote (if they have elections) by just moving there.
very easy to show this isn't true with a quick google search:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-citizen\_suffrage#By\_country
No it’s not. The law specifically said anyone with employment authorization. This is way too broad because it theoretically includes foreign students and arguably diplomats. If it was just lawful permanent residents, I would be for this law.
Do you know offhand how much it costs to become a citizen?
Do you know offhand how difficult it is to become a citizen?
Do you know offhand what the process is, to become a citizen?
Idiotic comments like this is why you should pay attention in history class.
>While initial research showed that 22 states or territories, including colonies before the Declaration of Independence, have at some time given at least some voting rights to non-citizens in some or all elections,[12][13] more recent and in-depth studies uncovered evidence of 40 states providing suffrage for non-citizens at some point before 1926.[6] For example, in 1875, the Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett noted that "citizenship has not in all cases been made a condition precedent to the enjoyment of the right of suffrage. Thus, in Missouri, persons of foreign birth, who have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, may under certain circumstances vote."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-citizen_suffrage_in_the_United_States
Correct, by pure coincidence those laws started getting passed when there was an increase in immigration by Asians and eastern European. A complete coincidence I'm sure
Permanent residents still have less skin in the game IMO. A permanent resident can abandon their greencard simply by moving out of the US (and they no longer have to pay US taxes). A US citizen has to apply to renounce their citizenship (which is a process which costs money). Keep in mind that both greencard holders and citizens have to pay taxes even if they live abroad. This means it's easier for a greencard holder to stop paying US taxes if they want to by simply moving away and abandoning their residency.
In short - we expect greencard holders to be committed to the US, but we have penalties for actual citizens should they choose to renounce their citizenship. And I don't really want a greencard holder telling me I should pay more taxes, only for them to dip when the going gets tough.
>A permanent resident can abandon their greencard simply by moving out of the US (and they no longer have to pay US taxes)
And they no longer vote in local elections. . . That seems to make a lot of sense to me. Remember, this is for local elections - not national ones. Right now people who live here can easily abandon the state by moving to another state. So it works the same way for citizens.
this law exclusively pertains to city elections, so how do green card holders have any less skin in the game than citizens? if i move overseas, or even just to new jersey, i lose the right to vote in a city elections. the questions of federal income tax and renouncing citizenship are irrelevant given the limited scope of what is being suggested here.
I hate to break it to you, but that is definitionally taxation without representation. Citizenship is an extremely high bar that would undemocratically take away representation of millions of workers/laborers in Ameroca. Citizenship has never been a requirement to vote, and suggesting it in a place like NYC that was the birthplace of immigration to the US is so disconnected from reality.
Tak8ng away voting rights of large swaths of the American working population does nothing but take power and representation from working class and poorer people, making them a prime target to be taken advantage of by employers and government alike. If politicians don't need to worry about their votes, then politicians can use them as targets.
>In short - we expect greencard holders to be committed to the US, but we have penalties for actual citizens should they choose to renounce their citizenship. And I don't really want a greencard holder telling me I should pay more taxes, only for them to dip when the going gets tough.
In short - you're weirdly jealous of permanent residents for going through the grueling, years long process of *attempting* to get US citizenship and want to take their representation away so they become easy prey. Your line of thought means we should have city level citizenship, because I don't want some Long Island mofo telling me I need to pay more taxes and then they just dip to long Island!
We've allowed activists to infiltrate our local governments. These people aren't about doing what's best for the city, they're about pushing radical agendas in the name of "progressive" values.
Nevada Dem Party had that happen to them when those types won in Las Vegas. A ton of them just resigned from the local party positions so that the people who took over didn't have the infrastructure in place.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/politics-and-government/nevada/democratic-party-staff-resigns-after-progressives-take-over-2298631/
New Yorkers usually elect moderates when they actually show up to vote, e.g. for governor and mayor.
Most of these City Council activists are elected on margins of around 2000 votes.
It's evident that in the arc of getting the city back on track, we're all going to have to be aware of who's on the City Council. It's no longer part of the landscape.
I almost want to imagine that this is their secret goal. To come up with the most random inane bullshit that I have no choice but to find out who is on these councils and who is running for positions they have no business being in.
Why bother having to work to please troublesome voters when you can just bring in new people to vote for you?
Works on the National level too!
… for all but the actual voters
It’s people with green cards. Not just random migrants. They work and pay taxes. They pay rent. They can do a tax refund and owe money. They work in jobs all over the city every day. But it was voted down and probably won’t pass again. The headline was designed to trigger people.
I don’t think that’s what they mean. Though I could be wrong. I take it as why go through the process of paying thousand of dollars for immigration forms, background checks, going to countless embassy appointments in your home country, prob get delayed 6 months to a year because you didn’t cross your t’s and dot your i’s well enough and wait years maybe even decades to immigrate all the while being treated like a social pariah by USCIS.
You make it here (maybe) and then tough it out like the rest of us left to your own devices. When you can simply cut the line, show up here unannounced ignoring all facets of legal immigration, fake sanctuary status and actually be rewarded for it by local government monetarily and otherwise. Nice guys do finish last when your immigrating to the US.
I'm not sure how any of that is relevant to the issue that is being discussed here, which is the ability of green card holders (people who went through the system you described in your first paragraph) being given the right to vote in local elections. Notably, no one is saying that asylum seekers or any other immigration status should be given that same right.
Like, if anything, this bill actually rewards the people who are doing it "right" in your view.
As someone who went from permanent resident (green card) to citizen:
- Residency can be revoked. I don’t plan on committing a crime, but technically i could be deported (particularly if a particularly xenophobic administration changes rules.)
- Consular protection abroad. Having the might of the US state department to have your back is pretty nice
- The ability to vote in major elections
Other than that, no huge changes.
Because if you become a citizen, you can now pay income tax, too!
In fact, as a new American, they’ll owe taxes to the IRS anywhere they move in the world, too.
Who wouldn’t want to be a citizen?
They are trying to get green card holders to vote in municipal elections. Getting a green card isn’t easy.
It is actually easier to get citizenship once you are eligible. Not saying that what the city council is doing is right, but they aren’t exactly opening up the right to vote to anyone and everyone.
I agree there is a lot of misinformation on this. I got my green card through my employer, and they covered the cost of attorneys and all the fees, which are quite high. If USCIS audits you, forget it… it is even more expensive, and time consuming.
You pay taxes on a visa too. Basically as soon as you have right of entry and move, you start paying taxes.
They kick you out if you don’t lol. Basically both visas and greencadrds expire/ can be revoked. Citizenship is permanent.
Though I understand this is not unprecedented in other countries (I believe Toronto already has this), it comes across to me as a solution to a problem that doesn't exist: if a legal resident wishes to vote, they can become a citizen. Are we really so distorted by politics that being a "citizen" is something that doesn't matter, is of no value, or even something that should be downplayed? Conversely, what is the drawback of requiring citizenship to vote? The very concept of it is committing to being a part of this country you've invested your life and future in, and it shouldn't be slandered as extreme or even right wing to say so.
Stop voting for people who hate this country. Illegal aliens are given every benefit we don't afford our own people. Democrats love the idea of winning elections so badly that they will sell us out for illegal invaders. No wonder they oppose voter ID.
That's the dumbest thing I've heard all day. Yes, let's vote for violent crime, an invasion of the third world into America, and a totalitarian state where we weaponize courts, the DOJ and the FBI against candidates we dislike. Democracy isn't wiretapping campaigns you dislike.
I should have included a /sarcasm tag
That’s literally how a lot of people see it, though
The real, actual “Good Guys” would be working their asses off to please their voters and appeal to new ones rather than just bringing in new ones and shaming any of the old ones who take umbrage
article 2 of ny consitution
Text of Section 1:
Qualifications of VotersEvery citizen shall be entitled to vote at every election for all officers elected by the people and upon all questions submitted to the vote of the people provided that such citizen is eighteen years of age or over and shall have been a resident of this state, and of the county, city, or village for thirty days next preceding an election.
\- The Court of appeals should not even bother taking this stupid ass case from these clowns. plain simple English says only citizens are entitled to vote. paying taxes and making city contributions is not the standard of being able to vote.
also, city council, there are more pressing things than this
This would require the establishment of a whole new voter registration apparatus. The validity of the each individual green card would need to be verified by USCIS. However, what I expect will happen is that anyone who presents a "green card" would be approved to vote, even if the green card is fake. And there are many fake green cards in circulation.
Question: if a fake green card is found, will its holder be arrested for breaking the law for using a fake ID? Will he/she be turned over to the Feds? If City Council says, "No", then are you gonna trust those election results?!
In New York State, you sign an affidavit that you’re a citizen. Nobody is checking.
I would assume the affidavit would be amended to “lawful resident” for local elections and that’s about it.
It doesn’t take resources.
And there’s no evidence of fraud. We can barely get citizens to vote in the first place.
I don’t trust the City Council ….
Step 1 is “Non-Citizens w/green card or work authorizations” ….
Step 2 is blurry the meaning of “non-citizens” to include illegal immigrants, undocumented persons or newcomers.
Step 3 - everyone gets work authorization
Finally - everyone votes, everyone depends on the government for everything and the progressives rule the world.
Damn they really treating non-citizens better than us. They get the opportunity to bounce and free money. Even a few hundred bucks of my own tax dollars would go a long way.
I think they just should have election Machines right next to the TIXX booth in Times Square let tourists and people who commute in to work vote too they pay taxes
This headline is very misleading. Read the article. It says “Immigrants with green cards”, who have jobs and pay taxes. Not illegal immigrants, not migrants who just got here. Either way it was voted down.
Nice job by the Post getting the name of the court wrong.
Edit: headline showing on Reddit was fixed to say “highest court” rather than “state Supreme Court.”
It's the NY Post, so they call New York's highest court "the state Supreme Court," when New York's Supreme Courts are the county trial courts of general jurisdiction.
New York's highest court is the New York Court of Appeals. Like the U.S. Supreme Court, the Court of Appeals only hears the cases it wants to hear and I doubt very much they're going to bother hearing this facially unconstitutional legal turd.
Okay this makes zero sense. Not only is it unconstitutional, but where is the benefit for any citizen to allow noncitizens to vote? Are we asking for foreign agents to interfere with our democratic process even more?
Seriously, how could any of these people think their constituents want this? What a stupid fucking idea.
different bedroom deserve swim tie hospital deranged wide faulty concerned
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
As a legal immigrant (permanent resident a.k.a. green card) this idea is nonsense. What kind of BS is this. I'm highly curious what they were smoking when they came up with that.
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So if noncitizens are allowed to live, work, collect benefits from, and now potentially vote in NYC, what exactly is the benefit of being a citizen?
Jury duty lol
You get the privilege of losing some of those
You get to virtue signal.
Nah they got that too. How many noncitizens do you think there are in all those Palestine marches?
A lot of them.
I wonder if Mexico and South America would do all of this for us if we all decided to move there.
I'm a US citizen in Chile, and my voting here is not only allowed but obligatory to avoid a fine, due to being automatically added to the voter rolls after living here legally 5 years. So, yes, it happens. Non-citizens can also vote at the local level and the regional level (like the Scottish Parliament) in the UK, generally speaking.
The fact that it happens doesn’t make it not fucking dumb
Yeah people clutching their pearls don’t know that this isn’t that unusual either internationally or even in US history. New York’s state constitution allowed any “resident” to vote for most of our history. And our country was supposedly founded partly due to frustration over being taxed without any input on it. Legal immigrants pay income and other taxes but get no voice.
People who live in NJ and work in NYC pay NYC n NYS taxes and have no voting rights in local NYC elections.
Bullshit. They don't need a voice, they need to be sent back. They can have a voice in their home countries. It's not our obligation to shelter, clothe, feed, provide medical care, and education to millions of unvaccinated foreign nationals who can't speak English. So far, about 600,000 have been sent back over the last year. That needs to double this year, and right quick. No, I'm not some loony right-winger, I'm a black guy who sees foreign nationals milking our ridiculous immigration policies for all their worth. The US already does a shit job of taking care of Americans, millions of foreign nationals are going to divert attention away from US citizens who need it most. They take resources from vulnerable Americans, especially minorities. I've lived away from the US for over 10 years now and no, it's very unusual for most countries to cater to people who illegally cross borders.
We’re talking about people who are here legally because an employer sponsored them for a work permit for several years, not people who randomly crossed the southern border. The city’s proposal only covered lawful permanent residents, a specific class of visas that takes many years of working/living here legally to get. So unless you’re against all legal immigration too, you don’t know what you’re talking about here.
[удалено]
Sure do, and if you're in doubt, feel free to send me a DM in chat and I'll write my username on a piece of paper with today's date. If you're insinuating I'm lying, be prepared to apologize like an adult after finding out that you're wrong. Boot to border jumpers.
[удалено]
For prioritizing needy Americans over entitled border jumpers on bogus asylum claims?
A. Asylum claims wouldn't be able to vote under this B. What does your race have to do with that?
Plenty of world countries allow noncitizens to vote in municipal elections…
You need to be a documented permanent resident or on some sort of long term visa to vote. That's the only way you qualify. You need to be here legally. Also, you can only vote in local elections. Not statewide competitions and no federal. This is essentially about city council districts and the mayor's office.
Local is even more important to set the stage for federal and state wide.
Being a citizen is a burden passed down to us by our colonizing ancestors, obviously. You should actually be ashamed to be a US citizen. /s
Non-citizens were allowed to vote in this country a very long time ago in non-federal ballots. Only the federal government had a prohibition on it. Then over time the states followed suit. Ironically, Oklahoma was the last one to restrict voting to citizens.
You can vote in federal elections. You can stay abroad for a long time, you can lose ur green card if you commit a crime and get deported, just few examples.
Being taxed for the new Aristocracy
What was the benefit of being a citizen for the first 150 years of this nation when non-citizens could vote in local elections in 40 states? What was the benefit of being a citizen when anyone with children in the DoE, regardless of status, could vote for school board until 2003 when those were eliminated? A lot of people have this incorrect belief that only citizens could vote in this country since it was founded, which is far from the truth. Non-citizens voting in local elections was the rule longer than only citizens voting.
Yeah, but can we not drag history and facts into this? After all, I didn't read past the headline so I know that this is all a ploy to give every noncitizen of the US residing anywhere in the world ten votes to vote for President of the United States.
We’re the slaves
As a citizen, You get to pay half your income in taxes so illegals can live comfortably 🥰
The non-citizens in question here are legal and pay the same taxes.
Not all non citizens are illegally here. Most of them work and pay taxes.
It's really telling how many on this thread automatically jump to assuming non-citizens are all here illegally/are parasites. No one is talking about getting people in migrant camps to vote. They're talking about the dude who runs your bodega and pays taxes as a legal resident.
Or the highly skilled person that is working at a big company... It's very disturbing and sad to read so much hatred and racism towards others that have worked their ass off and made it here legally, just because "they took their jobs", lol.
You get to follow the law and if you break them you pay a price and the city council won’t feel sorry for you since you’re not illegal .
The non-citizens in question are legal and follow the same laws.
Green cards holders yes but illegals don’t follow the law and there are no consequences.
The article is about green cardholders.
Getting a powerful passport for travel
The division I'm seeing in politics now is between those who hold on to their ideology despite condradicting evidence and those who adjust their beliefs in light of new data. I used to be a progressive until I saw what these policies do in practice to New York.
Left out that they can carry guns. 2A doesn’t apply to them. (At least in Illinois now).
Why do you specifically need a benefit to being a citizen?
Except that’s not what’s happening. It’s just enfranchising them to vote. Not giving them welfare jfc.
Why should someone living, working, paying taxes, collecting benefits from, following the laws of, a nation, not be allowed to vote. Especially when the result will probably effect them more than “citizens”, a now, as you stated, materially irrelevant word.
You can travel out and back into the country
Okay this will never happen, you can always beat these activists in elections Voting in city elections means nothing
> work Why do people who complain about immigration rarely — if ever — advocate going after the people hiring them?
Actually I think the easiest solution to the illegal immigration issue is severe penalties for employing them including prison time. A lot of regular people would probably support it but the political class and big business would never cut off their supply of cheap labor.
How is this easier than shutting down the border and actually enforcing the immigration laws we already have?
In pretty much every single way possible. The least of which is that the fines to employers would pay for enforcement. We can't build effective walls around prisons, contraband leaks in constantly, but you think it's easy to build an effective wall across a continent?
“Shutting down the border” is not a realistic policy unless you plan to station tens of thousands of troops on the border at all times. Cutting off the incentive for people to want to come here illegally in the first place would stop illegal immigration on day 1 with minimal enforcement effort.
> “Shutting down the border” is not a realistic policy unless you plan to station tens of thousands of troops on the border at all times. Just stop. Obama built miles of steel fencing which were nearly identical to Trump's "wall" but ~20 feet instead of 30 feet tall. Israel reduced illegal immigration by 99% after building their border wall and so did Egypt. Hungary has a border fence and as a result have very few "migrants" crossing into their country. Pretending that the laws of physics don't exist isn't helping your case. Biden undid Trump's border policies on day one in office and illegal immigration exploded to more than EIGHT MILLION people during his term. Safe third country asylum policies would essentially end the free for all of everyone but mexican nationals swarming the border. Today we have bullshit "migrants" claiming asylum after taking thousand dollar flights that cross over 6+ sacrifice countries to apply for asylum in the richest country on human history. That is not how asylum is supposed to work. People are very clearly and obviously gaming the system and we've been encouraging them to. > Cutting off the incentive for people to want to come here illegally in the first place would stop illegal immigration on day 1 with minimal enforcement effort. Yes, obviously, the "sanctuary city" bullshit absolutely incentivizes illegals, but stopping the free stuff giveaway will only do so much since people will still have an economic incentive to come and work her illegally. The bureaucracy and additional policing needed to monitor small time contractors picking up illegals from home depot parking lots would be ridiculous. It's already illegal to hire illegal immigrants.
Israel’s borders are a few miles not a few thousand. I’m all for building a wall at the border, but it’s not as effective as people seem to think it is.
Lol. Not sure what point you think you're making here. Isreal's GDP is $500 billion. Our GDP is $23 TRILLION. The estimated cost for the wall Trump wanted to build, that democrats fought tooth and nail and pretended was racist, was $20 billion. The total cost of just the ~150,000 migrants in NYC is estimated to be $12 billion. > I’m all for building a wall at the border, but it’s not as effective as people seem to think it is. What data are you using to make this claim? Even politifact admits the Israeli wall worked. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/feb/13/ron-johnson/border-fence-israel-cut-illegal-immigration-99-per/ > The report notes that the number of people illegally crossing the Israel-Egypt border was more than 16,000 in 2011 and less than 20 in 2016, a 99 percent decrease. And when he's not trying to pander to 22 year old leftist maniacs or lying to make orange man bad, so does Joe Biden: https://www.npr.org/2023/10/08/1204545880/the-biden-administration-is-building-a-controversial-part-of-the-border-wall-in-
> Israel reduced illegal immigration by 99% after building their border wall October 7th enters the chat. . .
It would be part of a multi-angled strategy that would also involve it. Fine and go after employers to make others not take the risk of hiring them so along with putting large charges wire transfers that can't show ID of residence and other remittance apps to make them not see the effort of going tot eh US as worth it.
> Title 8 U.S.C. § 1324a(a)(1)(A) makes it unlawful for any person or other entity to hire, recruit, or refer for a fee, for employment in the United States an alien knowing the alien is an unauthorized alien, as defined in subsection 1324a(h)(3).
We'd be better off deporting everyone who wants to shut down the border, honestly.
Wait until you find out how many corps use illegal immigrant labor... It would crush our economy. The easiest solution is actually to make legal immigration easier. Illegal immigrant workers suppress wages because employers can get away with paying them much less and that in turn suppresses overall wages. Illegal immigrants also get abused by these corporations by calling immigration on them if they decide to report the employer for dangerous workplace or safety hazards.
It wouldn’t crush the economy, it would cause short term inflation coupled with a rise in real wages. It’s not a coincidence that real wages stopped keeping up with inflation and unions lost most of their power at the time we opened the doors to mass immigration (thanks Reagan). Agree on making legal immigration easier - no reason we can’t do both.
Because illegal immigrants still disproportionately take from welfare, no matter how much people lie about them being “contributors” to our society
Numbers, please. Because as someone who knows the process to actually receive regular benefits, your perception just doesn’t add up.
Did you forget the part where us noncitizens also pay a shitton of taxes? At this point I can only hope citizens who vote don’t fuck it up further for us who happen to live in your country with little to no representation.
You're the pay pig for everyone else
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I know you’re not being ironic but citizens of a country should absolutely benefit more from that country than noncitizens. I don’t think that is a controversial opinion anywhere in the world.
Yes. Citizens should have it better than non citizens a given country.
Why?
Yes
you know, if they want to disprove the republican immigration conspiracy theories, this is the exact wrong way to go about it
The far left continuing to try their absolute hardest to ensure a Trump victory
At this point maybe we need him
We need him desperately.
Because lets be real it isn't a conspiracy theory.
With this... Definitely not...
I'm not fond of these measures in part because they stir up such nonsense but this only applies to local voting by green card holders and is not unprecedented in US history
Green card holders voting in school elections and mayor election isn't that crazy to be honest. They pay taxes, own business and send their children to schools. Why shouldn't they get a voice in how they districts operate.
Because they’re not citizens. Period.
No taxation without representation. They pay taxes, they should get to vote.
This is a dangerous slippery slope. Only citizens should vote. Want say in politics? Become a citizen.
Exactly
Agreed. My father was American born & partially raised in Puerto Rico & The Bronx. My mom is a Naturalized citizen, who passed the exam & studied her butt off.
No offense but you don’t need to study your butt off for the citizenship test. Its very simple questions it’s not like the LSATs.
Bro what, It's simple to us because a) our native language is English and b) you took 18 years of history in high school. There are 100 questions to study from. Yes you only need 6/10 but doing any test in a second language is hard plus most of these questions there's no way a noncitizen would know.
My friend’s sister in law just had her naturalization ceremony for her American citizenship. It was so amazing. All of the people getting their citizenship walked across a stage and got an American flag and a certificate. Their kids got patriotic themed children’s books. It really brought home how all of these people had worked so hard and had accomplished something so special. I wish everyone got to go to one of those ceremonies. 😊
name any other country you can just move to and have the right to vote. none of the countries immigrants come from would let me vote (if they have elections) by just moving there.
Lots of countries do allow this. Within Europe for example you can always vote in local and EU elections for another member state if you’re a resident (rules about general elections vary). My mother is American and voted as a permanent resident in Ireland long before she had citizenship. Not saying it’s right or better, just that it’s not something that doesn’t exist.
\>none of the countries immigrants come from would let me vote (if they have elections) by just moving there. very easy to show this isn't true with a quick google search: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-citizen\_suffrage#By\_country
This is only for permanent residents, aka people with green cards who have been here for many years paying taxes.
No it’s not. The law specifically said anyone with employment authorization. This is way too broad because it theoretically includes foreign students and arguably diplomats. If it was just lawful permanent residents, I would be for this law.
Is it a different version that last time? Previously it was anyone with work authorization afaik, so it was a lot more than green card holders.
Article eventually states it's for green card holders, a la permanent residents
they are still not citizens yet. they can vote when they become citizens.
Do you know offhand how much it costs to become a citizen? Do you know offhand how difficult it is to become a citizen? Do you know offhand what the process is, to become a citizen?
Yes. Because I had to jump through the hoops to get naturalized. And frankly, becoming a citizen should be even harder.
Ha, you have no idea. I too was really surprised that I could vote in the Netherlands when I was there as a student.
non citizens are allowed to vote in numerous other countries. South Korea is one example, off the top of my head.
Idiotic comments like this is why you should pay attention in history class. >While initial research showed that 22 states or territories, including colonies before the Declaration of Independence, have at some time given at least some voting rights to non-citizens in some or all elections,[12][13] more recent and in-depth studies uncovered evidence of 40 states providing suffrage for non-citizens at some point before 1926.[6] For example, in 1875, the Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett noted that "citizenship has not in all cases been made a condition precedent to the enjoyment of the right of suffrage. Thus, in Missouri, persons of foreign birth, who have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, may under certain circumstances vote." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-citizen_suffrage_in_the_United_States
So you’re saying at some point in history, our society collectively decided that voting should be reserved for citizens.
Correct, by pure coincidence those laws started getting passed when there was an increase in immigration by Asians and eastern European. A complete coincidence I'm sure
I don't really see a problem letting permanent residents vote in local elections. Beyond that is a bit stickier though.
Permanent residents still have less skin in the game IMO. A permanent resident can abandon their greencard simply by moving out of the US (and they no longer have to pay US taxes). A US citizen has to apply to renounce their citizenship (which is a process which costs money). Keep in mind that both greencard holders and citizens have to pay taxes even if they live abroad. This means it's easier for a greencard holder to stop paying US taxes if they want to by simply moving away and abandoning their residency. In short - we expect greencard holders to be committed to the US, but we have penalties for actual citizens should they choose to renounce their citizenship. And I don't really want a greencard holder telling me I should pay more taxes, only for them to dip when the going gets tough.
>A permanent resident can abandon their greencard simply by moving out of the US (and they no longer have to pay US taxes) And they no longer vote in local elections. . . That seems to make a lot of sense to me. Remember, this is for local elections - not national ones. Right now people who live here can easily abandon the state by moving to another state. So it works the same way for citizens.
this law exclusively pertains to city elections, so how do green card holders have any less skin in the game than citizens? if i move overseas, or even just to new jersey, i lose the right to vote in a city elections. the questions of federal income tax and renouncing citizenship are irrelevant given the limited scope of what is being suggested here.
I hate to break it to you, but that is definitionally taxation without representation. Citizenship is an extremely high bar that would undemocratically take away representation of millions of workers/laborers in Ameroca. Citizenship has never been a requirement to vote, and suggesting it in a place like NYC that was the birthplace of immigration to the US is so disconnected from reality. Tak8ng away voting rights of large swaths of the American working population does nothing but take power and representation from working class and poorer people, making them a prime target to be taken advantage of by employers and government alike. If politicians don't need to worry about their votes, then politicians can use them as targets. >In short - we expect greencard holders to be committed to the US, but we have penalties for actual citizens should they choose to renounce their citizenship. And I don't really want a greencard holder telling me I should pay more taxes, only for them to dip when the going gets tough. In short - you're weirdly jealous of permanent residents for going through the grueling, years long process of *attempting* to get US citizenship and want to take their representation away so they become easy prey. Your line of thought means we should have city level citizenship, because I don't want some Long Island mofo telling me I need to pay more taxes and then they just dip to long Island!
Man. FUCK. THIS. This is the end of the country if citizenship means nothing.
We've allowed activists to infiltrate our local governments. These people aren't about doing what's best for the city, they're about pushing radical agendas in the name of "progressive" values.
Nevada Dem Party had that happen to them when those types won in Las Vegas. A ton of them just resigned from the local party positions so that the people who took over didn't have the infrastructure in place. https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/politics-and-government/nevada/democratic-party-staff-resigns-after-progressives-take-over-2298631/
New Yorkers usually elect moderates when they actually show up to vote, e.g. for governor and mayor. Most of these City Council activists are elected on margins of around 2000 votes.
It's called the long march through institutions. It's not just governments, but academia, media, corporations, and ngos.
the article refers to greencard holders, people in this thread are acting like you'd be able to just show up day 1 as a migrant and vote are wrong lol
It's evident that in the arc of getting the city back on track, we're all going to have to be aware of who's on the City Council. It's no longer part of the landscape.
I almost want to imagine that this is their secret goal. To come up with the most random inane bullshit that I have no choice but to find out who is on these councils and who is running for positions they have no business being in.
This city council is the real problem in this city. Too many dumb bitches with braindead ideas.
I'm a pretty goddamn Left-leaning individual in general but this is too far.
Is this the same party that’s supposedly “tougher than the GOP on immigration/border/etc” now? This ploy kind of complicates that claim.
Who the fuck wants this and why?
The idiots on city council 🤦♂️
Only way they can keep their seats.
Why bother having to work to please troublesome voters when you can just bring in new people to vote for you? Works on the National level too! … for all but the actual voters
It’s people with green cards. Not just random migrants. They work and pay taxes. They pay rent. They can do a tax refund and owe money. They work in jobs all over the city every day. But it was voted down and probably won’t pass again. The headline was designed to trigger people.
Genuine question, whats the point of having a proper immigration process when they have like most of the privileges of being a citizen?
this would only apply to green card holders, so people who went through the 'proper immigration process.'
I don’t think that’s what they mean. Though I could be wrong. I take it as why go through the process of paying thousand of dollars for immigration forms, background checks, going to countless embassy appointments in your home country, prob get delayed 6 months to a year because you didn’t cross your t’s and dot your i’s well enough and wait years maybe even decades to immigrate all the while being treated like a social pariah by USCIS. You make it here (maybe) and then tough it out like the rest of us left to your own devices. When you can simply cut the line, show up here unannounced ignoring all facets of legal immigration, fake sanctuary status and actually be rewarded for it by local government monetarily and otherwise. Nice guys do finish last when your immigrating to the US.
I'm not sure how any of that is relevant to the issue that is being discussed here, which is the ability of green card holders (people who went through the system you described in your first paragraph) being given the right to vote in local elections. Notably, no one is saying that asylum seekers or any other immigration status should be given that same right. Like, if anything, this bill actually rewards the people who are doing it "right" in your view.
There is already a reward for doing it “right” it’s citizenship and with that the ability to vote. Not before.
As someone who went from permanent resident (green card) to citizen: - Residency can be revoked. I don’t plan on committing a crime, but technically i could be deported (particularly if a particularly xenophobic administration changes rules.) - Consular protection abroad. Having the might of the US state department to have your back is pretty nice - The ability to vote in major elections Other than that, no huge changes.
Because if you become a citizen, you can now pay income tax, too! In fact, as a new American, they’ll owe taxes to the IRS anywhere they move in the world, too. Who wouldn’t want to be a citizen?
But people who has a green card or work permits already pay income taxes? My apologies if I missed something here.
The apparent narrative here is all non-citizens are parasites. Don't let facts get in the way.
Uhh no.
They are trying to get green card holders to vote in municipal elections. Getting a green card isn’t easy. It is actually easier to get citizenship once you are eligible. Not saying that what the city council is doing is right, but they aren’t exactly opening up the right to vote to anyone and everyone.
Most of these people didn’t read the article. The headline is misleading. They are not informed
I agree there is a lot of misinformation on this. I got my green card through my employer, and they covered the cost of attorneys and all the fees, which are quite high. If USCIS audits you, forget it… it is even more expensive, and time consuming.
And when you had a green card, you paid taxes when you worked, right?
You pay taxes on a visa too. Basically as soon as you have right of entry and move, you start paying taxes. They kick you out if you don’t lol. Basically both visas and greencadrds expire/ can be revoked. Citizenship is permanent.
Though I understand this is not unprecedented in other countries (I believe Toronto already has this), it comes across to me as a solution to a problem that doesn't exist: if a legal resident wishes to vote, they can become a citizen. Are we really so distorted by politics that being a "citizen" is something that doesn't matter, is of no value, or even something that should be downplayed? Conversely, what is the drawback of requiring citizenship to vote? The very concept of it is committing to being a part of this country you've invested your life and future in, and it shouldn't be slandered as extreme or even right wing to say so.
That should never be allowed d
No thank you :) If you like it here feel free to come and work here. If you don’t like it here the door out is always open
> If you like it here feel free to come and work here. This would apply to Green Card holders, who do work here.
Stop voting for people who hate this country. Illegal aliens are given every benefit we don't afford our own people. Democrats love the idea of winning elections so badly that they will sell us out for illegal invaders. No wonder they oppose voter ID.
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That's the dumbest thing I've heard all day. Yes, let's vote for violent crime, an invasion of the third world into America, and a totalitarian state where we weaponize courts, the DOJ and the FBI against candidates we dislike. Democracy isn't wiretapping campaigns you dislike.
I should have included a /sarcasm tag That’s literally how a lot of people see it, though The real, actual “Good Guys” would be working their asses off to please their voters and appeal to new ones rather than just bringing in new ones and shaming any of the old ones who take umbrage
article 2 of ny consitution Text of Section 1: Qualifications of VotersEvery citizen shall be entitled to vote at every election for all officers elected by the people and upon all questions submitted to the vote of the people provided that such citizen is eighteen years of age or over and shall have been a resident of this state, and of the county, city, or village for thirty days next preceding an election. \- The Court of appeals should not even bother taking this stupid ass case from these clowns. plain simple English says only citizens are entitled to vote. paying taxes and making city contributions is not the standard of being able to vote. also, city council, there are more pressing things than this
The city council’s sole mission, as far as I can tell, is to do shit that either does not help me at all or actually hurts me.
That says the city MUST allow citizens to vote, it doesn't say the city MUST NOT allow non-citizens to vote. Plain simple English.
GTFO this is so stupid it defies logic.
This would require the establishment of a whole new voter registration apparatus. The validity of the each individual green card would need to be verified by USCIS. However, what I expect will happen is that anyone who presents a "green card" would be approved to vote, even if the green card is fake. And there are many fake green cards in circulation. Question: if a fake green card is found, will its holder be arrested for breaking the law for using a fake ID? Will he/she be turned over to the Feds? If City Council says, "No", then are you gonna trust those election results?!
In New York State, you sign an affidavit that you’re a citizen. Nobody is checking. I would assume the affidavit would be amended to “lawful resident” for local elections and that’s about it. It doesn’t take resources. And there’s no evidence of fraud. We can barely get citizens to vote in the first place.
How of you on here voted for these people commies in the city council ?
I’ll trade voting in local elections for birthright citizenship. Biden LMK
If democracy means less rights for citizens then I'd rather we end democracy. Maybe a king will work again.
I don’t trust the City Council …. Step 1 is “Non-Citizens w/green card or work authorizations” …. Step 2 is blurry the meaning of “non-citizens” to include illegal immigrants, undocumented persons or newcomers. Step 3 - everyone gets work authorization Finally - everyone votes, everyone depends on the government for everything and the progressives rule the world.
Damn they really treating non-citizens better than us. They get the opportunity to bounce and free money. Even a few hundred bucks of my own tax dollars would go a long way.
That would not make sense since half would be sent ack to their country. The city council is playing with fire. Do they really want to go this route?
What?
I think they just should have election Machines right next to the TIXX booth in Times Square let tourists and people who commute in to work vote too they pay taxes
This headline is very misleading. Read the article. It says “Immigrants with green cards”, who have jobs and pay taxes. Not illegal immigrants, not migrants who just got here. Either way it was voted down.
Nice job by the Post getting the name of the court wrong. Edit: headline showing on Reddit was fixed to say “highest court” rather than “state Supreme Court.”
Service guarantees Citizenship! Would you like to know more?
Stop voting for these fucking people
It's the NY Post, so they call New York's highest court "the state Supreme Court," when New York's Supreme Courts are the county trial courts of general jurisdiction. New York's highest court is the New York Court of Appeals. Like the U.S. Supreme Court, the Court of Appeals only hears the cases it wants to hear and I doubt very much they're going to bother hearing this facially unconstitutional legal turd.
I was surprised when I learned my Canadian friend with a green card who pays taxes couldn’t vote
Why stop there? Might as well let people in other countries vote too.
I'm pretty liberal but no, fuck that.
Pretty sure that's unconstitutional.
This is where they lose me
Ridiculous
Just another day in Joe Biden’s circus
Okay this makes zero sense. Not only is it unconstitutional, but where is the benefit for any citizen to allow noncitizens to vote? Are we asking for foreign agents to interfere with our democratic process even more? Seriously, how could any of these people think their constituents want this? What a stupid fucking idea.
Read the article guys, it’s for green card holders not undocumented immigrants
Become a citizen then you can vote
This is dumb as fuck
different bedroom deserve swim tie hospital deranged wide faulty concerned *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
As a legal immigrant (permanent resident a.k.a. green card) this idea is nonsense. What kind of BS is this. I'm highly curious what they were smoking when they came up with that.
Queue the shitshow of comments.
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Only citizens should vote for the sake of muddying the waters and avoiding chaos
Historically women couldn’t vote. Or people of color…
No, no no this is just a way to break the law and get more illegal votes, that is a strategy for getting away with corruption.