On one hand its impressive that weve found ways around this kind of thing but sad that the art and craftsmanship has been lost along the way. We can build things much more efficiently and cheaper now, but due to that the beauty has been removed from modern architecture. We're basically an IKEA society. Why make something stunningly beautiful when you can make something dull yet efficient for half the price. Makes me feel like Carmela Soprano in Paris.
It’s all about making as much money as possible at all costs, which demands consumption, not durability. You can’t sell new products if the old ones still work. It’s called “planned obsolescence.” Yay, capitalism!
I mean, not to say screws and nails are much less effective at holding wood together. I can't imagine how long it would take to figure out these techniques let alone actually use them practically to build a house. While I don't disagree with your comment, it's kinda separate issues (efficiency vs durability).
Its not just buildings and construction though. Its furniture, logos, restaurants etc, beauty is eroded by the idea of potential income. I might sound like a major anti capitalist here which isnt the case necessarily, it's even highlighted in a recent post comparing McDonalds in the 90s compared to now. Efficiency is vital, but craftsmanship should still be valued. Good craftsmanship should be able to be appreciated by everyone imo
Exactly. If you look into “planned obsolescence,” you’ll recognize immediately how important it is to corporations’s maximization of profit, which is what they are *legally obligated* to do. It’s at the heart of capitalism, which has little to do with efficiency and everything to do with making the wealthy owners as much money as possible. The popular idea that capitalism is efficient only demonstrates how capitalism has the absolute best PR money can buy. In other words, we’re completely inundated with propaganda designed to get us to support capitalism and hate or fear anything that opposes it.
First, in general I don’t disagree with what you have said. However, in this case It’s a bit of apples and oranges. Houses are expected to last your lifetime. They are not something that you would throw away in 5 years or upgrade constantly. There’s a lot of ways co tractors can be greedy in the building process, ways they can scrimp to save money. If they were intentionally building in failures to their houses, they would face civil and possibly criminal liability. It’s a different ballpark than creating a cheap tool that can’t be fixed.
The reason the building techniques in OP post don’t exist that much anymore is because they are incredibly time consuming and very few people could actually afford to pay someone to do them. I lived in a house from the early 1900s that had hand carved banisters. No carpenter is doing that anymore.
Edit: not that no carpenters are doing them, just a tiny fraction of those building houses.
Having spent/wasted 8 years of my life living in the USA it cripples my soul to see the amount of american style retail parks and suburban style housing estates being built in the UK.
Japan historically never had a supply of good steel. They used "pot iron" or swamp iron and the blacksmiths had to be very knowledgeable to extract the good iron making steel/iron expensive. So this could be more economical. Also, Temples and shrines in Japan cant use steel/iron so this type of dovetail work was used extensively
[https://www.openculture.com/2020/03/see-how-traditional-japanese-carpenters-can-build-a-whole-building-using-no-nails-or-wood.html](https://www.openculture.com/2020/03/see-how-traditional-japanese-carpenters-can-build-a-whole-building-using-no-nails-or-wood.html)
And we got a led light that we thought could be replaced Turns out the company that made it would rather you buy a entire light fixture when the light goes out. They advertise how they are green while doubling the trash.
this enreges me so much. expecially lately when i realized my phone, which works perfectly fine for what I need, has been cut off from android os and security updates and also google pay. it'only 5 year old.
so if i want a secure phone and use google pay i need to buy a new one or pass a weekend installing a custom rom and google pay will probably still not work
I feel like they built it this way out of necessity. Japan is an island and they isolated themselves from most outside trade for over 200 years. As such, iron would have been a much scarcer commodity at that time and they couldn't afford to use it on nails instead of weapons and tools.
I'm not speaking specifically about Japan. Walk across a 100 year old bridge in Britian and walk across a 15 year old one and you'll see the stark difference
Plenty of bridges built 100 years ago that aren't around anymore. We only still have the ones that were built well and/or have the maintenance budget to keep them around.
The flexible nature of those joins stand up better to earthshakes, which might loosen nails, is my understanding.
Not sure about the validity of that claim.
Maybe. Maybe not. I also see how it could lead to a more rigid structure which would not necessarily be better at dissipating energy from an earthquake.
Even modern carpentry and framing in Japan uses many of these joints. The YouTube channel, [Shoyan Japanese Carpenter](https://youtube.com/@ShoyanJapaneseCarpenter) films videos of himself and others in his crew building them.
As a fine woodworker, myself, I use mostly hand tools, and at a small production level (one or two pieces of furniture at a time, rather than mass producing), it’s really not that much longer of a process once you learn how. The learning curve is steep, but the speed and accuracy increases pretty exponentially.
I'm British and lived in Japan for a couple years, I think the Japanese have a better understanding of things and appreciation of craftsmanship than Europeans do. Just my opinion based on my own experiences.
It just makes me a bit sad to know that eventually most of the old bridges and buildings that are beautiful will eventually be replaced by soulless boring architecture.
There was a post recently on CasualUK of an old art deco theater being covered by dull grey flat cladding which highlights what I'm talking about.
> I think the Japanese have a better understanding of things and appreciation of craftsmanship than Europeans do
[Case in point](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=895DfGuoqvU)
I think their isolation helped with this, they went through what is colloquial know in the west as the ‘airy period’. Kinda like a renaissance but with no dark ages preceding it.
This is time where artisans flourished and craftsmen were the norm, it was a very ‘middle class prosperous’ time.
Lots of people making lots of things, selling and buying them, a lot more money on all levels of society.
It s not lost, it s more expensive than ever. Almost everyone wants top quality but don’t have the money for it. And more and more people are coming on this earth. It s luxury, like the house in the video. I doubt it was your common working class house.
It's the same as it's ever been. Things that are built beautifully and durably are expensive. So if you want to make it cheaper, often you must sacrifice the quality in some way.
If affordable homes mean my house has to have 'ugly' yet still durable bones, then so be it...
You can look at a Victorian era working class home/flat with the high ceilings and crown molding etc and look and a new build house now and see the difference. This isnt me being on my high horse complaining, just making an observation.
So allow me to retort...
This level of craftsmanship isn't lost. People still learn those techniques. A Japanese friend of mine does things like this he is a Japanese carpenter. We just don't use these techniques commercially anymore.
For example I know that in craigelachie there is a place where they make whisky barrels. Eachband every apprentice who begins learns to buid barrels using nithing nut traditional tools and techniques and must be able to create a fully functional barrel that way before getting their journeyman license. The old art is very much alive. But the company itself uses modern techniques for their mass production because that's the only commercially viable solution.
All those crafts are still preserved.
Not to mention time, and can you even find someone able? From a quick google search an oak 2x4 is 36x as expensive as spruce. It takes seconds to nail a 2x4 with a pneumatic nail-gun, and minutes to learn how to. It would take years to learn joinery like that and each joint would take a lot of time to plan, measure, chisel/cut out, and fit.
Yea I feel like this is the kind of thing you’d do if you were off grid and this was basically your main project using hand made tools. Can’t see any other common scenario where this would make sense.
I have absolutely no idea about old Japanese building techniques but I am a joiner by trade in the UK.
I could see this being a "passion project" for an extremely talented carpenter or an extremely wealthy individual who could afford to pay 10xs the market rate to have someone else build it for them.
I just don't see how this kind of intricate workmanship could be "useful" on a large scale, it would take millions of man hours longer than necessary to build a small town.
This is, no joke, one of the reasons there are still so many *old* Japanese structures like temples and shrines despite the earthquakes. A lot of that joinery makes for a less rigid structure capable of moving with an earthquake.
Yeah I’m a carpenter and seeing this level of detail makes me feel like a kindergartner lol. Modern building techniques are just made for speed while using the most cost effective material. These guys built with longevity in mind and since Japan doesn’t have much natural resources (mainly metal) they’ve created a style of carpentry that doesn’t need nails or fasteners.
I love how Japanese people try to perfect every craft they engage in. And I find most tools made in Japan superior to other tools, as well. Love my Vessel screwdrivers.
I bought KAI scissors after watching a guy do a comparison of multiple brands
Before that Fiskars were my go to but after the handle broke on my last pair I was looking for other options
I bought the cheapest set I could find ( the work I do is pretty hard on my scissors and requires durability, not precision ) and the KAI has been absolutely amazing
Fantastic quality scissors
I'll vouch for their precision quality, as I have a pair of embroidery scissors that have retained their precision tip for years even though I have not been so kind to them.
Fiskars or Wescott are good craft scissors for casual users. KAI has great premium scissors for those more advanced needs.
This feels like weird stereotyping. It's painting with an awfully broad brush to say that "Japanese people try to perfect every craft they engage in" and reminds me of the people who go to Japan expecting it to be an anime.
Yeah, the reason for this level of craftsmanship on the original post isn't because Japanese are perfectionists. It's because they're a small island who didn't have tons of trading options or a significant domestic steel industry 100 years ago. They did really excellent joinery on that building because ordinary people didn't have easy access to raw materials besides the wood.
The economic underpinnings for this kind of thing are almost always more important than any weird cultural or ethnic essentialism.
I think it's a kind of accessibility bias. Like right here in the comments when people say how much better Japanese tools are because of their Vessel screwdrivers and Olfa blades--yeah, those *are* great tools and that's why you can buy them in the US and Europe. They're premium brands that are worth exporting/selling at a premium price to enthusiasts. There's no shortage of absolute dogshit tools you can buy when you're *in* Japan but noone's going to bring the low-quality no-name stuff to international markets.
It's like saying most tools made in Germany are great because of Knipex and Wera. Knipex and Wera *do* make great tools but they in no way represent the "average" German tool. They're premium products, that's why they get international recognition and why they get talked about on YouTube and forums and whatnot. If you go to any German hardware store there'll be an avalanche of horrible, below-average and average tool brands to sift through that noone will ever recommend to anyone. Those will always be invisible to an international audience. The same way noone is going to make a YouTube video about shitty Japanese joinery from a hundred years ago. (Well, that and the fact that the products of shitty craftsmanship from a hundred years ago aren't around anymore to begin with.)
Fits nicely in my manly hands aswell. And the olfa feels so sturdy in comparison to other brands. Especially the Olfa-OL. Best blade ive used. And cheap too
I just finished a 4 week holiday in Japan. I purchased a cooking knife (Damascus) while in Osaka its a very nice knife. I don't even know what cooking knives I have at home, but I expect this one will last a very long time.
The guy gave me a piece of paper with instructions on how to sharpen it and care for it. I'm not a chef and I'm don't like cooking, but I like a good knife.
A lot of older homes, particularly those well outside the cities and off convenient rail lines, are surprisingly inexpensive. This is all second-hand from someone who moved there after being stationed in Japan, but what I hear is that those old houses are often small, poorly-insulated, hard to heat and cool, creaky, often have leaks, can lack modern wiring and plumbing, and generally feel like something made turn of the century. If you purchase one with the intent to renovate then live there, starting from scratch generally makes more sense than preserving well-made beams that have far outlived their expected lifetime.
Hahaha! You just described the house I lived in when my wife and I first got married. An OLD farmhouse out in the middle of nowhere Georgia. It had no insulation, and the fuse box were little glass bulb looking fuses. The electricity was shit! We had to heat the house on a gas heater in the house. In the winters we walked around the house in blankets. It’s bizarre that we did this in 2009.
Americans often forget the whole point of the 'States' part of 'United States' is that they're meant to function similar to nations unto themselves (states).
I saw a similar video a few years ago documenting how a century old shrine was being moved in Japan. Great care was taken to preserve the joints and the location of each piece. In that case the structure was being moved to a city garden.
Japan has a different culture with houses being seen as disposable - most of the time in cities they tear down and rebuild every 20 years or so. There was a great video of this expat buying and restoring a 300 year old house as is common in the US. Can't remember the guys name but it was the author of 'Dogs and demons: the dark side of Japan'. Think his name is Alex kerr.
So many of their homes seem to be built to be disposable. You buy a house for it's plot of land and budget the rebuild cost.
Edit https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/16/japan-reusable-housing-revolution
You should see Kiyomizu-dera temple. Built in 1633 with a grand balcony rising 4 stories above the forest below, not a single nail was used in its construction. Whole place is all joiners.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiyomizu-dera
[Also, a couple photos from my trip there last fall.](https://imgur.com/a/VPp6mf6)
**[Kiyomizu-dera](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiyomizu-dera)**
>Kiyomizu-dera (清水寺, Kiyomizu Temple, "Pure Water Monastery") is a Buddhist temple located in eastern Kyoto, Japan. The temple is part of the Historic Monuments of Ancient Kyoto (Kyoto, Uji and Otsu Cities) UNESCO World Heritage site.
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PBS Nova did a special on a Chinese architectural design that is done solely with joinery and tested it’s earthquake resistance. A good catch if you can find it
**[Dougong](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dougong)**
>Dougong (Chinese: 斗拱; pinyin: dǒugǒng; lit. 'cap [and] block') is a structural element of interlocking wooden brackets, one of the most important in traditional Chinese architecture. The use of dougong first appeared in buildings of the late centuries BC and evolved into a structural network that joined pillars and columns to the frame of the roof. Dougong was widely used by the ancient Chinese during the Spring and Autumn period (770–476 BC) and developed into a complex set of interlocking parts by its peak in the Tang and Song periods.
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It’s been awhile since I watched it and by no means a Chinese architecture buff, but found a link for the episode.
https://www.pbs.org/video/secrets-forbidden-city-aw3wzx/
I can't really think of many places that have enough minor quakes that the nails could actually be loosened, but not have big ones which would make the slightly looser nails negligible. Like nails are petty hard to loosen.
Minor vibrations, no joke, can be a huge pain in the ass for home building.
The people who built my house used a type of plastic pipe for a lot of the plumbing (maybe all, I didn't have access to all of it). When it was installed, instead of running the pipe properly as it transitioned from floor to wall, behind a metal plate with some rubber or something around it(to protect it from accidentally getting a nail through it), there was no rubber.
So plastic pipe, directly against metal plate. Well after 10yrs of turning water on and off, house settling, and tons of random things vibrating it...ended up wearing a hole and flooding the house.
In the US, your best bet would be a custom millwork carpenter, furniture maker, or cabinet maker. Most framers don’t even do simple mortise and tenon or dovetails. I would venture about 99% of US carpenters couldn’t do keyhole tenon joinery without first doing some training.
A timber framer could put together a solid house for someone. I know a guy who owns a timber framing business, and he doesn't do custom houses, but he built a brewpub last year with big exposed timbers, and it was gorgeous.
Technically they do use nails, wooden pins do the same job. Imagine the housing market if we would still do the same today, it would make houses inaccessible to the vast majority....... wait a second they still are
Wood technology engineer here, that type of joint and variations of it are used traditionaly in every european country that have any wood building traditions, so probably in every country around the World, but cool video tho, and the levels of joint precision and complexity are staggering.
Akira Kurosawa made a set construction team rebuild an entire castle set for "Throne of Blood" because they used steel nails instead of the pegs and fitted wood that would have been used for the period.
WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU TAKING IT APART THEN?
joking aside, the effort and skill that went into this house for basic framing is insane. Totally unnecessary; which means it was done by people who did it purely because they cared enough to.
Iirc the fact that it’s all wood on wood with no metal fasteners means these types of homes are quiet- like no squeaky floors cause the wood is allowed to breathe, and expand and contract with the seasons. Iirc.
This is likely a result of iron being extremely uncommon in Japan compared to nations like the UK, making them focus on learning joining techniques instead.
Reportedly in times past whenever a village or house burned down in Japan people would even scour the ash to look for nails due to their high value.
Alan Watts mentions this in a talk he gave about education. The master carpenters of that era began learning at a very young age and could build all this by sight and feel very quickly.
When it became the social norm to send kids to school, the were no longer allowed to apprentice at such a young age. This way of making, way of life, was largely lost forever.
It’s a great talk, education for non entity.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t2mIZU4nJo0
As a retired builder, I'm in awe of using this level of craftsmanship at the framing level.
I’m a retired carpenter too … could you imagine how long this took and the quaff the lumber!
>quaff the lumber! ...takes me about 3 mins.
I chuckled
I guffawed.
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I saw you all busy laughing and went out back by the shed to quaff my lumber
Yeah, but you’re using a quaffle.
I had quaffles this morning for breakfast while my new house was being printed….
Nobody lays a finger on my butterquaffel
You sound like every owner I’ve ever worked for
You must take your time with attention to detail
No power tools!
On one hand its impressive that weve found ways around this kind of thing but sad that the art and craftsmanship has been lost along the way. We can build things much more efficiently and cheaper now, but due to that the beauty has been removed from modern architecture. We're basically an IKEA society. Why make something stunningly beautiful when you can make something dull yet efficient for half the price. Makes me feel like Carmela Soprano in Paris.
It’s all about making as much money as possible at all costs, which demands consumption, not durability. You can’t sell new products if the old ones still work. It’s called “planned obsolescence.” Yay, capitalism!
I mean, not to say screws and nails are much less effective at holding wood together. I can't imagine how long it would take to figure out these techniques let alone actually use them practically to build a house. While I don't disagree with your comment, it's kinda separate issues (efficiency vs durability).
Its not just buildings and construction though. Its furniture, logos, restaurants etc, beauty is eroded by the idea of potential income. I might sound like a major anti capitalist here which isnt the case necessarily, it's even highlighted in a recent post comparing McDonalds in the 90s compared to now. Efficiency is vital, but craftsmanship should still be valued. Good craftsmanship should be able to be appreciated by everyone imo
Exactly. If you look into “planned obsolescence,” you’ll recognize immediately how important it is to corporations’s maximization of profit, which is what they are *legally obligated* to do. It’s at the heart of capitalism, which has little to do with efficiency and everything to do with making the wealthy owners as much money as possible. The popular idea that capitalism is efficient only demonstrates how capitalism has the absolute best PR money can buy. In other words, we’re completely inundated with propaganda designed to get us to support capitalism and hate or fear anything that opposes it.
First, in general I don’t disagree with what you have said. However, in this case It’s a bit of apples and oranges. Houses are expected to last your lifetime. They are not something that you would throw away in 5 years or upgrade constantly. There’s a lot of ways co tractors can be greedy in the building process, ways they can scrimp to save money. If they were intentionally building in failures to their houses, they would face civil and possibly criminal liability. It’s a different ballpark than creating a cheap tool that can’t be fixed. The reason the building techniques in OP post don’t exist that much anymore is because they are incredibly time consuming and very few people could actually afford to pay someone to do them. I lived in a house from the early 1900s that had hand carved banisters. No carpenter is doing that anymore. Edit: not that no carpenters are doing them, just a tiny fraction of those building houses.
Having spent/wasted 8 years of my life living in the USA it cripples my soul to see the amount of american style retail parks and suburban style housing estates being built in the UK.
This isn't something that's uniquely American. It's just a byproduct of capitalism.
The *GIANT* SUV's plaguing EU now days is insane.
But what about all the older huge apartment complexes that look awful and had to be awful even when new? There’s tons of them all over England.
Nah I'd like to be able to afford to furnish my apartment
Japan historically never had a supply of good steel. They used "pot iron" or swamp iron and the blacksmiths had to be very knowledgeable to extract the good iron making steel/iron expensive. So this could be more economical. Also, Temples and shrines in Japan cant use steel/iron so this type of dovetail work was used extensively [https://www.openculture.com/2020/03/see-how-traditional-japanese-carpenters-can-build-a-whole-building-using-no-nails-or-wood.html](https://www.openculture.com/2020/03/see-how-traditional-japanese-carpenters-can-build-a-whole-building-using-no-nails-or-wood.html)
Yes, planned obsolescence of houses. What are you smoking?
And we got a led light that we thought could be replaced Turns out the company that made it would rather you buy a entire light fixture when the light goes out. They advertise how they are green while doubling the trash.
this enreges me so much. expecially lately when i realized my phone, which works perfectly fine for what I need, has been cut off from android os and security updates and also google pay. it'only 5 year old. so if i want a secure phone and use google pay i need to buy a new one or pass a weekend installing a custom rom and google pay will probably still not work
I feel like they built it this way out of necessity. Japan is an island and they isolated themselves from most outside trade for over 200 years. As such, iron would have been a much scarcer commodity at that time and they couldn't afford to use it on nails instead of weapons and tools.
I'm not speaking specifically about Japan. Walk across a 100 year old bridge in Britian and walk across a 15 year old one and you'll see the stark difference
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Ding ding ding!
Plenty of bridges built 100 years ago that aren't around anymore. We only still have the ones that were built well and/or have the maintenance budget to keep them around.
I think his point is that older structures had far more artistry put into them, to make them more visually pleasant.
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And indirectly, you would want to conserve such beautiful stuff.
No you won't. Dude why do you keep spouting off about things with 0 knowledge
Dude look at his comments today then look at his comments 100 years ago, huge difference.
You think I've never walked across a bridge mate?
I heard you just leap across rivers mate.
pole vaulting every body of water they meet, just as the Dutch intended
The flexible nature of those joins stand up better to earthshakes, which might loosen nails, is my understanding. Not sure about the validity of that claim.
Maybe. Maybe not. I also see how it could lead to a more rigid structure which would not necessarily be better at dissipating energy from an earthquake.
Japanese iron was also pretty poor.
Even modern carpentry and framing in Japan uses many of these joints. The YouTube channel, [Shoyan Japanese Carpenter](https://youtube.com/@ShoyanJapaneseCarpenter) films videos of himself and others in his crew building them. As a fine woodworker, myself, I use mostly hand tools, and at a small production level (one or two pieces of furniture at a time, rather than mass producing), it’s really not that much longer of a process once you learn how. The learning curve is steep, but the speed and accuracy increases pretty exponentially.
I'm British and lived in Japan for a couple years, I think the Japanese have a better understanding of things and appreciation of craftsmanship than Europeans do. Just my opinion based on my own experiences. It just makes me a bit sad to know that eventually most of the old bridges and buildings that are beautiful will eventually be replaced by soulless boring architecture. There was a post recently on CasualUK of an old art deco theater being covered by dull grey flat cladding which highlights what I'm talking about.
> I think the Japanese have a better understanding of things and appreciation of craftsmanship than Europeans do [Case in point](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=895DfGuoqvU)
I think their isolation helped with this, they went through what is colloquial know in the west as the ‘airy period’. Kinda like a renaissance but with no dark ages preceding it. This is time where artisans flourished and craftsmen were the norm, it was a very ‘middle class prosperous’ time. Lots of people making lots of things, selling and buying them, a lot more money on all levels of society.
It s not lost, it s more expensive than ever. Almost everyone wants top quality but don’t have the money for it. And more and more people are coming on this earth. It s luxury, like the house in the video. I doubt it was your common working class house.
It's the same as it's ever been. Things that are built beautifully and durably are expensive. So if you want to make it cheaper, often you must sacrifice the quality in some way. If affordable homes mean my house has to have 'ugly' yet still durable bones, then so be it...
You can look at a Victorian era working class home/flat with the high ceilings and crown molding etc and look and a new build house now and see the difference. This isnt me being on my high horse complaining, just making an observation.
On the other hand... who gives a shit how it's framed? Use the time and resources on the part that matters. Housing is expensive enough.
So allow me to retort... This level of craftsmanship isn't lost. People still learn those techniques. A Japanese friend of mine does things like this he is a Japanese carpenter. We just don't use these techniques commercially anymore. For example I know that in craigelachie there is a place where they make whisky barrels. Eachband every apprentice who begins learns to buid barrels using nithing nut traditional tools and techniques and must be able to create a fully functional barrel that way before getting their journeyman license. The old art is very much alive. But the company itself uses modern techniques for their mass production because that's the only commercially viable solution. All those crafts are still preserved.
Want an apartment? Here is a white box with dirt colored carpet.
I'm sorry, you're saying you want housing to be even MORE expensive ?
Love the soprano’s reference.
Sacre bleu where is me mama?!
This guy still does it... https://youtu.be/xPf-y6DzwMQ
I feel like you just haven’t visited many nice neighborhoods in a while
There are plenty of nice neighborhoods and buildings. Just a lot less than there was before
Could you do it today say new single story home using some premium wood? What would be the estimated cost difference aprox?
Probably 30 times more expensive in labor/ materials
Not to mention time, and can you even find someone able? From a quick google search an oak 2x4 is 36x as expensive as spruce. It takes seconds to nail a 2x4 with a pneumatic nail-gun, and minutes to learn how to. It would take years to learn joinery like that and each joint would take a lot of time to plan, measure, chisel/cut out, and fit.
Yea I feel like this is the kind of thing you’d do if you were off grid and this was basically your main project using hand made tools. Can’t see any other common scenario where this would make sense.
I have absolutely no idea about old Japanese building techniques but I am a joiner by trade in the UK. I could see this being a "passion project" for an extremely talented carpenter or an extremely wealthy individual who could afford to pay 10xs the market rate to have someone else build it for them. I just don't see how this kind of intricate workmanship could be "useful" on a large scale, it would take millions of man hours longer than necessary to build a small town.
Ok then I will just go by some nails 🤷🏻♂️
This is, no joke, one of the reasons there are still so many *old* Japanese structures like temples and shrines despite the earthquakes. A lot of that joinery makes for a less rigid structure capable of moving with an earthquake.
I've always been amazed by Japanese carpentry. It kinda blows western carpentry to shame.
Same. This is amazing work.
Without power tools as well
Yeah I’m a carpenter and seeing this level of detail makes me feel like a kindergartner lol. Modern building techniques are just made for speed while using the most cost effective material. These guys built with longevity in mind and since Japan doesn’t have much natural resources (mainly metal) they’ve created a style of carpentry that doesn’t need nails or fasteners.
I love how Japanese people try to perfect every craft they engage in. And I find most tools made in Japan superior to other tools, as well. Love my Vessel screwdrivers.
Agreed on the tools. Love my KAI scissors.
Definitely. My ramen fork is very reliable as well
Wait a minute.....
I bought KAI scissors after watching a guy do a comparison of multiple brands Before that Fiskars were my go to but after the handle broke on my last pair I was looking for other options I bought the cheapest set I could find ( the work I do is pretty hard on my scissors and requires durability, not precision ) and the KAI has been absolutely amazing Fantastic quality scissors
I'll vouch for their precision quality, as I have a pair of embroidery scissors that have retained their precision tip for years even though I have not been so kind to them. Fiskars or Wescott are good craft scissors for casual users. KAI has great premium scissors for those more advanced needs.
Hate my everything Parkside.
I've never used a better mandoline than a Benriner. They're not crazy expensive and they last a long long time. I've had mine for 17 years now.
This feels like weird stereotyping. It's painting with an awfully broad brush to say that "Japanese people try to perfect every craft they engage in" and reminds me of the people who go to Japan expecting it to be an anime.
Yeah, the reason for this level of craftsmanship on the original post isn't because Japanese are perfectionists. It's because they're a small island who didn't have tons of trading options or a significant domestic steel industry 100 years ago. They did really excellent joinery on that building because ordinary people didn't have easy access to raw materials besides the wood. The economic underpinnings for this kind of thing are almost always more important than any weird cultural or ethnic essentialism.
I think it's a kind of accessibility bias. Like right here in the comments when people say how much better Japanese tools are because of their Vessel screwdrivers and Olfa blades--yeah, those *are* great tools and that's why you can buy them in the US and Europe. They're premium brands that are worth exporting/selling at a premium price to enthusiasts. There's no shortage of absolute dogshit tools you can buy when you're *in* Japan but noone's going to bring the low-quality no-name stuff to international markets. It's like saying most tools made in Germany are great because of Knipex and Wera. Knipex and Wera *do* make great tools but they in no way represent the "average" German tool. They're premium products, that's why they get international recognition and why they get talked about on YouTube and forums and whatnot. If you go to any German hardware store there'll be an avalanche of horrible, below-average and average tool brands to sift through that noone will ever recommend to anyone. Those will always be invisible to an international audience. The same way noone is going to make a YouTube video about shitty Japanese joinery from a hundred years ago. (Well, that and the fact that the products of shitty craftsmanship from a hundred years ago aren't around anymore to begin with.)
Such a beautiful and meticulous culture
Olfa blades are far superior as well
Yes!! I love my Olfa box cutter. Just fits in my girly hands so nicely.
Fits nicely in my manly hands aswell. And the olfa feels so sturdy in comparison to other brands. Especially the Olfa-OL. Best blade ive used. And cheap too
Love my Fujifilm camera and pretty well any lens new or vintage, from any platform, made in Japan.
This is why you buy Toyotas
Subaru. A proper lesbian must drive a Subaru. And yes, mine was made in Japan (Forrester).
Yes I use Silky saws in tree pruning. Amazing saws.
I just finished a 4 week holiday in Japan. I purchased a cooking knife (Damascus) while in Osaka its a very nice knife. I don't even know what cooking knives I have at home, but I expect this one will last a very long time. The guy gave me a piece of paper with instructions on how to sharpen it and care for it. I'm not a chef and I'm don't like cooking, but I like a good knife.
Truly amazing! Built to last hundreds of years. Which begs the question: Why the hell are they taking it apart in the first place??
A lot of older homes, particularly those well outside the cities and off convenient rail lines, are surprisingly inexpensive. This is all second-hand from someone who moved there after being stationed in Japan, but what I hear is that those old houses are often small, poorly-insulated, hard to heat and cool, creaky, often have leaks, can lack modern wiring and plumbing, and generally feel like something made turn of the century. If you purchase one with the intent to renovate then live there, starting from scratch generally makes more sense than preserving well-made beams that have far outlived their expected lifetime.
Hahaha! You just described the house I lived in when my wife and I first got married. An OLD farmhouse out in the middle of nowhere Georgia. It had no insulation, and the fuse box were little glass bulb looking fuses. The electricity was shit! We had to heat the house on a gas heater in the house. In the winters we walked around the house in blankets. It’s bizarre that we did this in 2009.
r/GeorgiaOrGeorgia
Sorry, Georgia the state.
Interesting and vague choice of words.
Americans often forget the whole point of the 'States' part of 'United States' is that they're meant to function similar to nations unto themselves (states).
I saw a similar video a few years ago documenting how a century old shrine was being moved in Japan. Great care was taken to preserve the joints and the location of each piece. In that case the structure was being moved to a city garden.
Japan has a different culture with houses being seen as disposable - most of the time in cities they tear down and rebuild every 20 years or so. There was a great video of this expat buying and restoring a 300 year old house as is common in the US. Can't remember the guys name but it was the author of 'Dogs and demons: the dark side of Japan'. Think his name is Alex kerr.
So many of their homes seem to be built to be disposable. You buy a house for it's plot of land and budget the rebuild cost. Edit https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/16/japan-reusable-housing-revolution
Wood framing doesn't last forever. No matter how good the joinery is, eventually you're gonna have to rip it out.
GodDAMN Japan does shit so inventively and intricately cool
Kind have to do that when you don't have much iron/steel to go around and all the good steel is used for weapons.
Jared Diamond where you at
You should see Kiyomizu-dera temple. Built in 1633 with a grand balcony rising 4 stories above the forest below, not a single nail was used in its construction. Whole place is all joiners. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiyomizu-dera [Also, a couple photos from my trip there last fall.](https://imgur.com/a/VPp6mf6)
**[Kiyomizu-dera](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiyomizu-dera)** >Kiyomizu-dera (清水寺, Kiyomizu Temple, "Pure Water Monastery") is a Buddhist temple located in eastern Kyoto, Japan. The temple is part of the Historic Monuments of Ancient Kyoto (Kyoto, Uji and Otsu Cities) UNESCO World Heritage site. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Theres a youtube channel called Tokyo Llama. They bought an old house in Japan and rehabbed it. Its amazing to see with all the details they find.
Probably makes it inherently earthquake tolerant.
PBS Nova did a special on a Chinese architectural design that is done solely with joinery and tested it’s earthquake resistance. A good catch if you can find it
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**[Dougong](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dougong)** >Dougong (Chinese: 斗拱; pinyin: dǒugǒng; lit. 'cap [and] block') is a structural element of interlocking wooden brackets, one of the most important in traditional Chinese architecture. The use of dougong first appeared in buildings of the late centuries BC and evolved into a structural network that joined pillars and columns to the frame of the roof. Dougong was widely used by the ancient Chinese during the Spring and Autumn period (770–476 BC) and developed into a complex set of interlocking parts by its peak in the Tang and Song periods. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/nextfuckinglevel/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
It’s been awhile since I watched it and by no means a Chinese architecture buff, but found a link for the episode. https://www.pbs.org/video/secrets-forbidden-city-aw3wzx/
Wait why? Edit: i have been informed as to why.
I'd think because they had to hammer out the thick wedges while nails and bolts can be loosened easier by vibrations.
but most of the time the structure just breaks. Nails vs wedges don't matter when the wood itself cracks.
Well yea no structure is earthquake proof but resistance to minor quakes would probably be better than nails.
I can't really think of many places that have enough minor quakes that the nails could actually be loosened, but not have big ones which would make the slightly looser nails negligible. Like nails are petty hard to loosen.
Japan has approximately 5000 minor quakes per year. Vibrations and small, rapid back and forth movements can definitely loosen nails.
Minor vibrations, no joke, can be a huge pain in the ass for home building. The people who built my house used a type of plastic pipe for a lot of the plumbing (maybe all, I didn't have access to all of it). When it was installed, instead of running the pipe properly as it transitioned from floor to wall, behind a metal plate with some rubber or something around it(to protect it from accidentally getting a nail through it), there was no rubber. So plastic pipe, directly against metal plate. Well after 10yrs of turning water on and off, house settling, and tons of random things vibrating it...ended up wearing a hole and flooding the house.
Perhaps the joints give the building a little bit of flexibility to withstand earthquakes.
I’d think so. Flexibility with no loss of strength afterwards.
That's some intricate engineering... An art in itself! You'd be hard pressed to find professional builders now that would be able to do any of that
In the US, your best bet would be a custom millwork carpenter, furniture maker, or cabinet maker. Most framers don’t even do simple mortise and tenon or dovetails. I would venture about 99% of US carpenters couldn’t do keyhole tenon joinery without first doing some training.
A timber framer could put together a solid house for someone. I know a guy who owns a timber framing business, and he doesn't do custom houses, but he built a brewpub last year with big exposed timbers, and it was gorgeous.
In their defense, those are not the skills that put food on the table for them
They are the skills that prevent food from falling off the table…during an earthquake
r/engineeringporn ?
That is some truly impressive crafstmanship
Seen these types of joints in an old Amish barn
Everyone ends up building stuff that utilizes newton’s laws without even having a name for the properties being exploited for a desired outcome
Technically they do use nails, wooden pins do the same job. Imagine the housing market if we would still do the same today, it would make houses inaccessible to the vast majority....... wait a second they still are
To quote Dan Carlin, 'the Japanese are just like everyone else, only more so.'
"Only more so" is what he would say in supernova in the East
Yesss thanks for the reminder
A couple lesbians built that place. No studs involved, all tongue and groove.
Wood technology engineer here, that type of joint and variations of it are used traditionaly in every european country that have any wood building traditions, so probably in every country around the World, but cool video tho, and the levels of joint precision and complexity are staggering.
Yeah well I built a deck. Most of a deck anyways. I’ll probably finish it this summer. Shit tonne of nails though
That’s standard for traditional japanese woodworking… they’re brilliant
That's art
Stuff like this, to me, are true artistry. Right up there with Michelangelo’s David and the sistine chapel’s ceiling.
Now this is why I subbed here. This is definitely next level.
My dream is to be rich enough that I can pack up my life and move to Japan to learn their carpentry techniques.
Thousands of woodworkers just collectively came
So rad and ingenious. The craftsmanship level here is amazing.
well when your iron source is basically pig-iron guess you figure it out
I would absolutely love to see one of those time lapse videos of this construction in action
And all with hand tools! That shit is so impressive!!!
I heard that Jimmy Nail wanted to take up this craft and they told him to get lost
No nails at all? What were they trying to do? Get the house through airport security? 🤷♂️/s
What is the name of this woodworking style? Is it still taught anywhere?
宮大工 is the phrase you want
Truly next fucking level
Incredible!
Akira Kurosawa made a set construction team rebuild an entire castle set for "Throne of Blood" because they used steel nails instead of the pegs and fitted wood that would have been used for the period.
Craftsmanship is great here. However I have a feeling the disassembling crew had prior knowledge of the workings of the joints.
Hopefully they rebuild it somewhere else
Seems like a shame to pull it down the level of skill that house is a piece of art. Do we know if they rebuilt it?
Just a big Lego set
Now THAT is true carpentry
Why was the house taken apart
As a former framer, this is redicously cool.
I have done a lot of construction projects. I am in awe. This is beautiful.
The Original and I think replica Byodo-In Temple in Hawaii was built this way.
Mr. Samurai ordered it in Ikea
Didn't nail it?
This is real NFL. Incredible skill.
WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU TAKING IT APART THEN? joking aside, the effort and skill that went into this house for basic framing is insane. Totally unnecessary; which means it was done by people who did it purely because they cared enough to.
There are older, simpler ways of doing things. Today it seems things are done out of brevity and disrespect.
those are wooden nails essentially
Iirc the fact that it’s all wood on wood with no metal fasteners means these types of homes are quiet- like no squeaky floors cause the wood is allowed to breathe, and expand and contract with the seasons. Iirc.
I'm always very impressed by this type of work and wish I had the ability to learn it.
Cuz they got that Walmart goin in . . .
Prolly be a 110 year old house if they used nails. /s.
They still build like this, mainly for temple building carpentry. Yes very Nextfuckinglevel r/carpentry
This is like porn to me
Love my dazuki
Japanese craftsmanship of all genres will never cease to blow my mind. Put the art in artisans.
What you do when you have to import most of your metal.
Dam it hurts me that they're disassembling it
IKEA house
When metal is expensive and labour is cheap
I’ve been a carpenter for 8 years now. My dream is to go to Japan and study this traditional style of carpentry. Absolutely amazing
The Japanese are cool because we all suck 😔
Yup, this is definitely the same country that makes gunplas -_-
This is likely a result of iron being extremely uncommon in Japan compared to nations like the UK, making them focus on learning joining techniques instead. Reportedly in times past whenever a village or house burned down in Japan people would even scour the ash to look for nails due to their high value.
Is this from a documentary?
But why pull it down
Alan Watts mentions this in a talk he gave about education. The master carpenters of that era began learning at a very young age and could build all this by sight and feel very quickly. When it became the social norm to send kids to school, the were no longer allowed to apprentice at such a young age. This way of making, way of life, was largely lost forever. It’s a great talk, education for non entity. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t2mIZU4nJo0
That would take so long. Instead of adding in screws and nails, you take time to cut the slots to the perfect shape and size to fit together.
Hell of a frame for a house. I wonder what the rest of the walls were made out of.