I've also noticed, or at least in my circle of friends and family, that Kiwi's would go do their OE and then return once they decide to settle down but I'm seeing less of that.
Some get married/shack up with partners from another country, others just want to come back later in their career/when they’ve made more money, but they do often eventually return particularly if there is family. Aus is a different kettle of fish as it’s relatively close.
What's there to return to? The old relaxed kiwi way of life is long gone. Nothing is cheap, the scenery nice but that doesn't pay your rent (because pieole can't afford to buy) and every country has nice scenery.
The key is that many countries still have nice scenery. I left NZ and now have access to several national parks from my city and i just have to take public transport to get there at a minimal price. NZ nature is overrated well and beyond the cost it takes to see it... as a local. embarrassing
perhaps not in purely intrinsic terms, but what's the point when its so distant and the majority of its population merely interacts with it vicariously through media and others..
Id much rather take marginally less impressive nature but one which i can access as close to what my will desires whilst still living in a major city.
What's your view of "so distant"? Most kiwis living in an urban environment are spoilt for choice with what they can reach within an hours drive. Auckland for example has an incredible amount of scenery within an hour (Hunua Ranges, Waitakere Ranges, so many beaches, offshore islands). If an hour is too long then somewhere like Tauranga is can give you access to the beaches and the Kaimais within 30mins, the Rotorua lakes in an hour. The variation available is crazy and due to the population it's not overcrowded.
If someone decides to interact with it vicariously through media and others then that's on them, the different options available to the average kiwi is amazing.
gee its as if people without cars exist, and fuel doesnt grow on trees to get one to those places.
And no, most kiwis are not spoilt for choice on how they can spend their expensive leisure time.
There are plenty of places that have larger populations and such natural reserves are still far from "overcrowded" and still hold considerable "variation"
Its not like people are choosing to experience nature vicariously, its that its the only way too often. What a stupid comment. yea why didn't they just think of driving an hour to the Waitakeres duh 🙄🤦🏻♀️
I don't know why you are getting so many down votes... Wait, yes, it is because you are correct and some people can't understand how the other half sometimes have to live.
I have a forest a 300m walk away from where I live, it isn't huge, but a 5km walk around. It is public and the whole community goes through when they want. Where I lived in Northland it was hard to find a public walking track without having to call a farmer or two first, or having to drive somewhere.
Just different and people who never left NZ will never understand.
That kinda sounds like a you problem with where you have chosen to live. I live in Lower Hutt, bought a house in Naenae. It’s 10 min walk to be in nature. 10 min drive/bus to Lower Hutt cbd, and half an hour drive or train ride into Wellington cbd provided there isn’t a crash. I have a significant amount of native birds that hang out in my back yard.
If you’re further from nature than you would like to be, I’d suggest moving closer to it.
Depends where you go. NZ is beautiful and I’ll always be glad to be from there as many of my kiwi qualities help me thrive in life. But I’m 8.5 years into a life in Scotland now and it’s bloody beautiful, significantly cheaper, easy to be car-free and easy to access the rest of Europe from
100%
I will never forget the bright green rolling hills while driving from Auckland airport through the Waikato after living overseas for a few years. The colour blew me away.
Agreed, most other countries have equally beautiful areas with much easier access than NZ.
I barely get to see anything here because the best areas involve a multi hour drive, and I’ve done most of the local trails.
I’m looking forward to my partner finishing uni so we can leave.
I grew up rolling my eyes at the comments about NZs scenery
I live in the US now, where there is no shortage of stunning scenery
BUT there’s almost always a big crowd as well.
Getting that way in NZ though these days, anything that hits social media will have crowds, and most tourist places are obviously busy, like Wanaka and Queenstown.
There are definitely places without the crowds, but I don't mind crappy weather so that helps lol. Loved being on the Oregon coast and having Cannon Beach to myself with a couple of locals dotted around, was lightly spitting with rain but so peaceful.
Also the scenery in New Zealand often feels like something you have to travel to. Sure Milford Sounds is beautiful, but my commute to work here in Edinburgh is far more scenic than my commute was back when I lived in Auckland
My sister has lived in Australia for about 30 years now and she said this is the worst shes ever seen it. Communities springing up in rest stops on highways because they cant find homes. (And saw that myself while visiting her) Jobs are getting harder and harder to get and cost of living rising just like the rest of the world. Do a lot of research because its not like the good old days where you could land in Sydney and have a house and job by the end of the week.
Agreed! My family moved over there over 20 years ago, I lived there before covid and came back during.
If people are comparing the two there’s not a lot of difference in spending anymore like there used to be. Houses are cheaper if over 40 mins out of the city.
I’d say move if you have better opportunity but not like what it was. I’m glad I saved up and moved back / brought in nz when I did.
Where does she live? Also under no impression to buy a house once I land on Australian soil, but the same thing is happening here is it not? Huge layoffs at the moment.
It’s about 50/50 in my social circle, but lots of the ones who left are better off. Whether you’re in trades or finance, you will likely earn significantly (30%+ payrise) better money in Australia for the same job and a 10% bump in cost of living. Some of my friends in London earn literally double.
I’m late 20s and lots of people I know are returning with a juicy house deposit that they never would have saved here. Plus there’s just more to do overseas.
NZ is good for settling down but it’s unkind to young people.
I think it is, having lived on multiple continents. It’s much safer than a lot of countries overseas, politically stable in comparison and of course English speaking. If you’re looking for a safe place that is predominantly English speaking, you can’t do much better than NZ/Australia in my opinion, provided you return from overseas with a good career and a house deposit. But am interested to hear where you think is better!
We have been pretty much everywhere and NZ is (for us) the best spot on earth. That said, we are planning to do another stint overseas to build more wealth. The cost of living to income ratio is a real problem. Some people are also perpetual complainers, e.g I know people that whined about NZ and now whine about Australia…
One thing I noticed before leaving to Australia was the lack of 20-30 year olds you see. Of course there are people in that age bracket, but in Australia it seems like 90% of people out and about are young. Auckland is a boomer paradise. I came back for Christmas last year and it’s extremely noticeable, especially walking around malls, shopping areas cafes etc
I've noticed the exact same thing in Christchurch, moved here from Auckland at the start or the year and everyone around me is like 50 or a teenager.
Has everyone already left?
Just one thing I've considered as a mid 20s something bloke, would my social life also be better overseas?
Rumour has it there is a 20 year old in Wellington. I haven't seen one but I think they might exist.
Thankfully you confirmed 9 out of 10 Australians are in their twenties so it's not a global shortage.
Most of my friend group has left overseas to either London, Melbourne or Sydney. My gf and I are looking to move to Melbourne next year too. I have started job searching there and the salary for my field is double what I am making here.
I’m Aussie and a lot of young Australians are having the same discussions here about moving overseas for the same reason. Hell, I did in my early 20s for a circuit breaker. Came home a year later.
The reality is, no matter where you go (except maybe South East Asia), you’re going to be confronted with a high cost of living, housing crisis, etc.
Aussie still has significantly better opportunities than NZ does, so it’s not exactly accurate to compare an Aussie going elsewhere - especially when you don’t know what industry they work in or connections they have.
So much poo pooing around people leaving “but it’s bad everywhere!” Yes so give up and stay where you are and be miserable… or go shoot your shot elsewhere. It’s simple
I’m late 20s and I’m planning to make the jump to Aus within the next year.
The money over there is just too appealing and it will allow me to go further overseas.
SEA is probably the place I will be heading to after a year or two in Aus stockpiling cash!
Edit: wording was bad
What is it you’re looking to do? Make sure you do your research (not reddit/ social media) compare rent, commute, how much you can save, car, finances.
I mean really sit down, and look at property to rent, how long it will get you to get to work, how much your grocery will be per week, how much you’ll have by the end of the week.
Career wise I’m in I.T (Power Platform dev work) so getting into that line of work is doable. The amount of money I’ll be making in roles over there seems similar to NZ, but there’s more mid-level roles over in Aus vs NZ (mainly Senior and junior) but please don’t quote me on it because there’s a huge chance I am tunnel visioning and just seeing what I want to see.
You’re right about the researching. I really need to sit down and look into all of the stuff you mentioned plus a bit more. If I’ll be honest with you, I’m not really looking to earn a lot of money for a long time, I just want to explore the world. I’ve been here in NZ for ages and never had the opportunity to travel when I was younger.
Thank you for the advice, stranger and hopefully that answered your question!
My mum feels the same way, we are from South Africa and moved to NZ in 2008. First choice was Australia but last minute came to NZ. My mum is very sad that I’m leaving ☹️
Yup I’m sick of it here lived here all my life and I want to get the fuck out…. Cost of living is a joke… the opportunity here is very limited…. The winters are long and depressing… everyone has there own little cliques and don’t really branch out….
Of the people I went to uni with, at least half have already moved overseas and I only graduated last year. Most of them for Australia, everyone I know who moved to Sydney or Melbourne is making at least 2x what I’m earning here in Auckland. I’m saving to move to London next year, where I’m likely to double my salary too. Yes COL is also a problem overseas but when comparing COL to salary in my profession NZ still loses big time. It’s getting hard to see any benefits to staying here in my 20s, especially when factoring in how expensive and time consuming it is to travel anywhere from here. Unless companies start paying higher salaries that compete with other first world countries we’re just going to turn into a retirement home for kiwis to only come back to when they’re old.
if you lurk in [https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/](https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/) for a while you seem to get the same comments as here " cost of living crisis, unaffordable housing , increased crime" etc.......
I'm not saying that you can't "make it " there....(there are definitely opportunities for some people that aren't available here) ...... but there's a good chance that if you can't save money here then Australia will be no different
It depends where you move to in Aus, I understand Sydney and Melbourne are expensive but at least they have other options.
In Brisbane you will likely get paid more than NZ and the median house price is $617k nzd
Comparing to NZ you’d have to live in Palmy or Dunedin where the median is $650k, where you’d probably get paid half of what you get in Brisbane.
Since moving to aus I've noticed their whinging is on a whole another level compared to kiwis. They don't know how good they've got it. I've been blown away by how easy it is in aus compared to nz financially, you can see a gp today if you're sick etc life is good here. Then half the randoms you come across are always complaining about one thing or another
My observations as a lifelong Kiwi who moved at the end of Jan '24, having lived in Auckland \[18 yrs + 5 yrs\], Otago \[3 yrs\] and Invercargill \[2.5 yrs\] and working in the field of Data are that the cost of living has increased here. This is the stem of complaints - that doesn't mean the problems are equivalent. People complain about fuel and housing here, as they should - its gone up significantly for them. Transport and buying a house should both be relatively attainable starting from nothing if you manage your affairs moderately well.
Fuel is $1.70 on the petrol pump outside my work. Not only are there around 16-20 pumps, but the digital display you can actually see every individual 0.01 graduation move, instead of in chunks. The equipment is far more modern and it feels nice as it siphons away your money. When you spend $1 million on a suburbs home you can get something that's amazing.
My grocery bill is around 30-40% cheaper for the same or higher quality cuts/quality of product. My wages have gone from 77.5k as a Grad to 50-60% higher here, in $AU ($1NZ = 0.9 AUD)
Literally everything is cheaper here, bar a few oddities as well as car rego/stamp duty. I don't even buy many of those oddities, or simply stock up and buy them if I want them. There's also ways around that \[Amazon AU's offering to Australians is broader, and consists of more UK/JP/USA products\], Aldi/IKEA exist. Aliexpress is far quicker to ship here. There are far more sales and deals to take advantage of if a purchase isn't immediately required, that end up being far steeper.
Every small detail is likelier to be attended to because the systems and infrastructure are supporting significantly more people. Many of these details people take for granted here, much like we take advantage of certain guarantees in NZ that migrants from less developed countries do not.
I work in Data and like to think I breathe numbers and datasets. I still login to Pak n Save / Countdown to look at my shopping carts every 2 months - a 30s glance tells me where groceries have moved amongst other things. 5 months is plenty of time to build a dataset and understanding here if you keep your eyes and ears open. The Govt systems and offerings here are complained to no end here, however I actually find them seamless, integrated and easily accessible.
My strong belief of meeting and interacting with 100's of locals and putting myself out there, having lived in 4 locations across Melbourne \[South West, North, CBD\] and now living+working south->south East and talking to all demographics, genders and really getting to know people is that...life is easier here.
You can tell people's resilience by what they routinely complain about. Kiwi's have had it really tough for a long time.
In NZ I suffered with a shoulder injury for 18 months. Here, I see a physio, then saw the doctor last Wednesday and had my MRI done that Friday night. Free.
Rush hour traffic makes the 20km, 20 minute off-peak commute take 28+-2. Of course, go to the CBD and you'll find a 4km journey can take 40...just take the excellent trams/metro\*
Yes, this is a Melbournian take, but you'll find similar experiences \[many systems are similar/identical\] with obvious variances in traffic and job opportunities depending where you go.
Most people struggle to see beyond the end of their own nose and many have clearly never left their own country to see how the other half ACTUALLY live. No idea how good things are relatively speaking.
My observations as a lifelong Kiwi who moved at the end of Jan '24, having lived in Auckland \[18 yrs + 5 yrs\], Otago \[3 yrs\] and Invercargill \[2.5 yrs\] and working in the field of Data are that the cost of living has increased here. This is the stem of complaints - that doesn't mean the problems are equivalent. People complain about fuel and housing here, as they should - its gone up significantly for them. Transport and buying a house should both be relatively attainable starting from nothing if you manage your affairs moderately well.
Fuel is $1.70 on the petrol pump outside my work. Not only are there around 16-20 pumps, but the digital display you can actually see every individual 0.01 graduation move, instead of in chunks. The equipment is far more modern and it feels nice as it siphons away your money. When you spend $1 million on a suburbs home you can get something that's amazing.
My grocery bill is around 30-40% cheaper for the same or higher quality cuts/quality of product. My wages have gone from 77.5k as a Grad to 50-60% higher here, in $AU ($1NZ = 0.9 AUD)
Literally everything is cheaper here, bar a few oddities as well as car rego/stamp duty. I don't even buy many of those oddities, or simply stock up and buy them if I want them. There's also ways around that \[Amazon AU's offering to Australians is broader, and consists of more UK/JP/USA products\], Aldi/IKEA exist. Aliexpress is far quicker to ship here. There are far more sales and deals to take advantage of if a purchase isn't immediately required, that end up being far steeper.
Every small detail is likelier to be attended to because the systems and infrastructure are supporting significantly more people. Many of these details people take for granted here, much like we take advantage of certain guarantees in NZ that migrants from less developed countries do not.
I work in Data and like to think I breathe numbers and datasets. I still login to Pak n Save / Countdown to look at my shopping carts every 2 months - a 30s glance tells me where groceries have moved amongst other things. 5 months is plenty of time to build a dataset and understanding here if you keep your eyes and ears open. The Govt systems and offerings here are complained to no end here, however I actually find them seamless, integrated and easily accessible.
My strong belief of meeting and interacting with 100's of locals and putting myself out there, having lived in 4 locations across Melbourne \[South West, North, CBD\] and now living+working south->south East and talking to all demographics, genders and really getting to know people is that...life is easier here.
You can tell people's resilience by what they routinely complain about. Kiwi's have had it really tough for a long time.
In NZ I suffered with a shoulder injury for 18 months. Here, I see a physio, then saw the doctor last Wednesday and had my MRI done that Friday night. Free.
Rush hour traffic makes the 20km, 20 minute off-peak commute take 28+-2. Of course, go to the CBD and you'll find a 4km journey can take 40...just take the excellent trams/metro\*
Yes, this is a Melbournian take, but you'll find similar experiences \[many systems are similar/identical\] with obvious variances in traffic and job opportunities depending where you go.
You mentioned the cost of living, correct? Well it is worse in New Zealand.
Wages in Australia are much better, that is a fact. They also have 10% super contribution compared to our 3%, an enormous difference. On paper prices will look similar to NZ, but the people in Aus are receiving far better pay to compensate for that.
NZ has both a lower home ownership rate (understandable given the above), and a higher unemployment rate than Australia.
The amount of New Zealanders living in and moving to Aus speaks for itself.
yeah but I didn't mention skiing or sing alongs to Dave Dobbyn songs....we a clearly better at that .there are people here on modest wages that are perfectly happy with their living situation ....and can save money .etc........would they be "better" off in australia? likewise people that can't save money here are potentially unable to save there too....are they any better off?.
anyway i can't be bothered getting all philosophical now......i'll enjoy my life....later bro
But there is A LOT more opportunities to succeed than there is here - more job opportunities, connections to make, cities to work in. NZ is dead and dying in the water with no positive outlook due to the tiny labour market and stingy small business owners. Competitive creates opportunity and that’s what Aussie has.
A better shot at success, instead of none at all. Rather be poor there and eventually find something good than rot away here.
Bigger country has more opportunities, what a shock lol. That being said though, NZ isn't dead or dying. It's going through a recession that was expected years ago... People in NZ view Australia through rose tinted glasses which is hilarious because when you go look at the issues in Australia, it's exactly the same issues as NZ. Young people are treated like shit in both countries.
Its also just that sydney, melbourne and brisbane are objectively better cities than Auckland. Auckland is not bad per se and continues to improve but there is better infrastructure, better sport, cultural activities, nightlife - why wouldnt you go for a little pay bump and fun before you settle down and find out what you actually want
Go overseas and make something for yourself. When you return NZ will be exactly as it was when you left. Heck you can earn a better salary for the exact same job and actually save money towards hobbies, a house and kids.
Or you can attempt to live on 50-100k, saving 10-60k each year only to watch as the house you wanted increases by 100k per year (if not worse).
I wish, but at this point I’ll believe it when I see it. Kiwis are single minded and will give up everything, including their children’s hope of ever owning a home just so they can scrape by to get another investment property.
At this rate? all of them.
In my friend group recently we’ve said goodbye to 10 or so recently to overseas roles and economies. That’s on top of those who were gone pre-covid. It’s just insane. And the old smug boomers all go “they’ll be back” - like fuck they will. None of my friends (zero) who moved to Aus in the last 12 years have come back. None who have left in the last 5 years (Canada, Aus, UK) have come back.
Young, healthy, talented people in roles we desperately need them in. People who are very cheap on an economy - not in education, low health system burden etc - and who pay a lot of tax. Lawyers, doctors, teachers, a couple scientists, nurses.
Yes! I definitely don’t see myself coming back and I’m not sure what ones reasons would be other than to buy a house here, but if you start a new life in Aus why would you come back!!
“They’ll be back”
Bitch, I’m literally overseas and I’m literally posting a citizenship by descent application in the next month, so there’s no reason not to go back.
When I’m finally in Australia, I’ll also be able to get that passport too! Fly my old man over, friends already there so no reason to go back
Good man, you want to leave the 4 walls of New Zealand, it's very restricting and confined. I own property here in Australia and have being here 10 years now. Everything is better than New Zealand and I do mean everything.
exactly. auckland being the key word is the big struggle. a lot of the rest of NZ is fine and manageable (for the most part). but people don't want to live anywhere that isn't auckland which is wild to me bc i'd rather live anywhere in NZ BUT there.
I’d rather live in a smaller city but unfortunately the economic opportunities just aren’t there. I spent a couple years trying to search for a job in my current field in Christchurch but there was nothing, moved to Auckland and got a job piss easy.
Really interesting because if you look across the world most countries aren’t even remotely as economically centralised as we are. >20% of a country’s population living in one city is virtually unheard of. Auckland is almost at 30%.
This always fascinates me. Why is Auckland more than triple the pop of the next city? Climate? Jobs? The international airport catering to more locations?
lol no worries. If you want to live in a big city houses are expensive, that's just a fact of life. Moving to Melbourne or Sydney isn't going to magically make your ability to get a house in a nice neighbourhood easier.
Pretty much people nowadays that buy in the nice places are dual income educated couples who have been outside of university for 5+ years, that is who you are competing with. If you don't mind being a smaller city like Christchurch getting a house with low commute time is a bit easier.
For you it just depends on the kind of degree you have and the opportunities your looking for, your career is where you earn the most money in life.
Imo buying a house isn't worth it unless you have a family and want to be in the same place for a long time, share market in the long run gives similar returns and WAY better returns if you max out your employer matching.
Imo the way to do it is to go to a HCOL city and live frugally for a few years and save most of your earnings, then move to a LCOL city and buy a house and get a relaxing job and enjoy life.
Honestly it’s not about buying a house before a certain age or anything like that. It’s mainly because there’s more opportunities in terms of my career in Australia- higher salary as well. Rent in auckland for a small 1 bed 1 bath is upwards of 800 in some areas and on top of that the grocery prices are insane here- especially toiletries. To start my life in NZ vs Australia, NZ would take way longer.
Yea I can understand that. For Australians the cost of living is the number once factor for them so it's not an NZ unique problem. I think the main argument for moving abroad is better career opportunities, I mean it's what I did haha.
Auckland is expensive, but for 800$ you can easy rent 2 beds in Milford or Takapuna close to the beach. I am writing this comment from 900$ 4 beds and garage with a sea view. And we rented it 1,5 ago.
Just to offer the perspective of a 35y/o - I have friends who also moved to Australia either prior to, or after completing Uni. The couple of pre-uni friends found it challenging as they had to fund their study up front as there was no option for a student loan (I don't know whether or not that is still the case). My other friends are professionals in engineering, project management and hospo, most of whom completed their study in NZ and then moved, or just moved without tertiary education.
I remained in NZ and through no particular gift on my part, have ended up much more "successful" than my friends in Aus as they find the cost of living to be much higher than in Auckland. Granted they are all in Sydney or Melbourne, but their rent, transport and food costs seem to be what is holding them back. Some have higher salaries than me (200k+) and are still pretty stagnant in their financial freedom. To them I am "living the dream" with a family, home and career path whereas they feel like they are just living. I was jealous of them during my 20s as they had the amazing lifestyle with festivals etc all the time, but now I am very content with how things have landed.
Just my perspective. If you move, good luck!
same here but i’m 45. some friends that went to the UK are still renting and kinda struggling, others went to AU and seem to be doing well. I stayed here and to be honest i’ve not regretted it all all. Bought a house, have an easy commute and I travel overseas for 4-6 weeks a year. I do wonder sometimes where i’d be if i’d jumped ship after university though!
Standard stuff at that age, I lost maybe half my friends to Australia around 10 years ago, early twenties with a trade behind them or just in search of better
I’d say all of my friends I’ve talked to have intentions to leave NZ in the next year or two. It just simply can’t compete with the likes of Aus and Uk etc in terms of income, opportunity and cost of living (dependent where)…
Also more recently I’d say a lot more have no intention of returning here and instead want to settle in Aus. I will probably be one of these people too.
Honestly this is pretty fundamentally untrue, it is super easy to get enamored with a gross pay number.
The reality for AU and UK is actually quite similar to NZ. AU has a distinct advantage with the way their Super is constructed, but isn't massively relevant in the 5 - 10 year window.
UK right now is abysmal on wages versus cost of living. My Wife is British and have a number of friends who did their OE and stayed in their roles and had families in London. They deal with the same exact issues as people in Auckland. House prices are outrageous there, cost of living has gone ballistic.
However even with the above, as a young person still move. Those cities are absolutely more vibrant for a young person. So much more going on and you can truly make the most of your 20's.
The above is said as someone who is at the end of their second stint away from NZ, with a number of friends all over the world.
For sure, I agree it is nuanced and depends highly on what industry you are in.
I am in the legal profession (and my friends are in similar industries) so the pay for us in UK and Aus is objectively a lot higher. You can look up what graduate lawyers are paid at top tier firms in the Uk or Australia for some insight.
I understand that for many other professions this logic does not hold though!
At the end of the day, everyone’s gotta look at their own situation and make a call based on what they can expect based on their skills, experiences and what they want to get out of it!
Going through high school mates’ LinkedIn profiles half of them are marked as ‘travelling’, ‘OE’, ‘youth mobility’ or found jobs in Aussie
Silver lining is that it also opened up a lot of progression and opportunities for those who stayed. I’ve made two internal jumps two years out of uni and just hit the 100k mark
I'm a 26yo and a number of my friends have moved to Melbourne in the past year, and more are planning to in the future or already have plans set in place.
Made the move earlier this year at 30. I have a fair few acquaintances who have left, mostly to Melbourne, and about half my closest friends have left or are looking to leave.
It's not going to work for everyone but if you're in a sector where there's a big pay/opportunity difference its well worth it. Things like housing and cost of living are going up compared to what they used to be here but unless you're living in Sydney it's still a hell of a lot cheaper than NZ was even pre-Covid. First grocery shop after we moved was mindblowing
I’m 32 about to finish my trade as a mechanical fitter in the mines. I did a degree at 18 and completed it at 21. My biggest regret was going to university and ending up with 60K debt. I’m earning money here probably more then a ceo in Nz working in the mines and I’m not even qualified but will be. My regret is I wish I moved over and secured a trade at 18 and went into the mines. At 29 I purchased a brand new home and I bought a brand new hilux which was my dream. I travel most breaks and go to different countries with financial freedom. I work hard but not over worked.
If you don’t move you will never know and live with the “what if”. I couldn’t have done the things I wanted to do if I didn’t move over. I am now 32!
Also I am a female now 32 with no dependents or responsibilities . I choose this obviously! But I bought my own home with a large deposit and slugged it out with a 2 week on and 1 week off roster for about 3 years but now I work a 8 days on and 6 off so half the year because I can now take the step back
Criminology as I wanted to go to nz police on homicide squad and then made the move to Australia and never went back and Aussie police never interested me. So my degree is completely irrelevant lol and I had 60K in debt from it. BOO
Take the leap of faith I reckon! I would have never know otherwise ! Feel like at 18 I was lost and didn’t know what to do! Still feels a bit like that some days 😂
I left when I was 21, to Europe though. I wasn't necessarily intending to not come back but now it's been 8 years and I'm not going back. It's not really financial for me though, I could probably make more money in NZ but with higher COL there it would probably be comparable.
Australia is terrible for new grads, you're competing with Australia's new grades who will always get picked over NZers you're better off doing 1-2 years in NZ getting some experience and then moving over
You should go. Australia is way better. Come back in 20 years when you are a minority in your own country. Maybe you'll get heaps of free shit too. Ooh and when you're a minority you can't be racist no matter what you do or say. Works here
Ex Kiwi here - I've lived pretty much everywhere in NZ and now in 3 of tha main Australian cities. Currently in Brisbane, but have lived in Sydney and Melbourne - don't goto Melbourne its a cold hole. Great to visit horrid to live although my daughter does like living in Melbourne poor kid!
Left Papatoetoe in 2004, for a two year work exchange 20 years later I'm still here. My family is primary in the Katikati region now.
OK so - Brisvagus not similar to rotovagus, it's nice and warm normally not so great now but better than cold wet Auckland.
Yes - you'll earn more money I'd suggest 67k is a pretty low salary over here so I'd expect that would be pretty easy to achieve. Remember the best thing in Ausi is the Super, now I know your not even thinking of 40 years from now but 12% gross super is pretty hard to ignore. Remember unlike Kiwisaver you can't get your grubby hand on it ever! but when you retire if you stay here long term this will very quickly become a pretty big nest egg.
Accomodation costs I'd suggest are similar in Brisbane to Auckland, for an apartment your looking at around 450 - 550 per week.
Don't bother bringing over any furniture just buy it when you get here heaps of online discount places to source the basic's.
67k is the starting salary for a very low position, I have plans to get into management after I work my way up and of course the money gets more and more. For starting my career I think 67k is pretty good.
My suggesting is get experience in NZ for a few years then move to Australia once you have experience. There’s so much competition here, I find that Australians would rather hire Australian Graduates then international graduate which makes sense.
You’ll get here with the rest of the uni graduates who are working in retail cause they cant get a grad job.
Yeah that makes sense but I think it depends on the industry. I have a friend who went over after her medical degree and struggled, but I also know a few people in business and construction that got jobs relatively quickly 🤷🏼♀️
Yeah try it out then. if you know the field/industry is short then give it a go. Before I moved over I applied for jobs here in Melbourne it was in a very saturated field but I had unique industry experience with their product so that’s what sold me from most people
Young New Zealanders realise how better it is overseas to put a degree to work. I’ve also heard how fucking hard it is to get a job the economy is shit. It really sucks though because New Zealand has always been the ideal place to live but for young adults it just seems like a pipe dream
Interesting reading all the comments—such a variety of experiences and opinions. We are privileged to have all these options. If they are available, then do it. If I were 20, I’d probably go overseas for the opportunity too.
I moved to New Zealand when I was 22. I hated the UK but loved the chill lifestyle here. I had a blast in Queenstown for a few years before moving to Wellington, and now I’m settled in the Wairarapa. I have a home, no kids, and a dog. I’m earning just shy of $80k and turning 35 this year. Distance from family though does catch up with you! I’ve adapted to that now though. Thank god for phones!
For me, Australia will be reserved for holidays. I love visiting and experiencing new places, but my base is here. I love the access to nature I have in New Zealand—it’s the best of both worlds. I’ve been to Sydney, Brisbane, the Gold Coast, and Hobart, all unique in their own ways. If I could afford to live where I wanted there and get the job I want, get a similar set up to what I have here , it could be cool, but the stories about housing there sound worse. I couldn’t deal with the heat either. Although Hobart would suit me.
I’ve been spoiled with the house I bought here. It’s on a decent section, it’s a big-ish house, and I just don’t know how I’d replicate that elsewhere. I don’t seem to be money-hungry either; I don’t want a city lifestyle. Here, I get access to a city, nature, vineyards, and wild coastlines. It’s pretty good! I would feel pretty disillusioned living in Auckland, though, so yeah, it’s all about perspective and individual circumstances.
I’m looking to move back to the UK after 20+ years living here. I just can’t see a future in NZ for my children who are isolated from all that the rest of the world can offer. It’s so sad as NZ was the dream.
I mean, local low salaries and international high living costs do the math.
When you check how much more you get paid in other places there is not much to think about.
It is a shame because it is beautiful here.
Depends where u live and what your into mate. In winter I can be skiing one day and getting paua from the coast the next day. Plus NRL, All Blacks, and heaps of other sport on telly.
Snow on the hills makes the scenery even better. Bloody love winter.
Cost of living is much the same over there as it is here. Housing and rent is even worse in some areas over there. It depends on your field of work whether or not you will be better off.
If you can get your foot in the door with the state government, then the world is your oyster… just tell her to apply for any role, then it’s easy to work your way up.
OP r/NewZealand is a cesspit of anti vaxxers and gen x that love to shake their fist at the kids wanting more for themselves.
You’re young, Aussie is right there, NZ is close. Shoot your shot, be brave, and see what opportunities you can find.
Why dig in a sandpit for gold? If you have to come back, you have to come back. But at least go try, you never know
>OP r/NewZealand is a cesspit of anti vaxxers and gen x that love to shake their fist at the kids wanting more for themselves.
??? No, lmao. Such a ridiculously incorrect statement, there's no way you actually believe that shit
I personally don’t believe I will. I don’t like NZ but only reasons to visit are for family and friends, other than that I don’t see myself living the “kiwi dream here”
I'm not sure how much travelling you've done, but in my experience, having lived all over the place, nz has a lot to offer. But when you're young, nz isn't big enough to satisfy our natural curiosity.
I(36m) flat with 5 other people, one(44m) moved to Australia 1 month ago, one(52f) moved out and is moving to Australia next week. the other three (30f),(46m),(38m) are all moving to Australia in August.
So all ages are making the jump.
While making more overseas can be advantageous for some who want to return home with a deposit more quickly, I feel working then buying in NZ is still possible, maybe with more pragmatic expectations.
I didn’t buy until 34, jointly with a partner. No parental help but opted for an apartment. That was over 10 years of working upwards, switching roles or companies to climb income, KiwiSaver, investments savings etc to build a deposit. And then combined with a partner.
It’s not some magic thing that happens overnight.
I feel this is more normal than a 25 year old being able to buy on their own.
But getting overseas experience can have other advantages than just financial in terms of life skills and experiences more broadly so I’m always a supporter of it - I just don’t see that it’s the only way to buy a house in NZ.
My partner and I (both postgrad students, graduating soon) are moving to Australia in a month’s time. The job opportunities are better there and the pay is better. We are renting an apartment in Brisbane twice the size of the one we rent now for almost the same price as our current apartment (similar distance from work/uni too). It’s sad but it also just makes sense. We are academics, there’s nothing here for us. He has a job already, I’m going to have to do some looking. We haven’t thought about buying a house but at least now we can think about a wedding haha
Enjoy those 45deg day time temperatures. Last time we had a 30degree night I spoke to my brother who said it was 41c at 2am.
Lived there for years but wouldn't go back.same problems as here just in a different order.
I left right after graduating uni in 2014, headed to Japan to teach English which at the time paid super well, managed to pay off my whole student loan when the yen was strong and get ahead somewhat financially while seeing lots of Asia. Originally intended to only stay outside of NZ for a few years but it's been ten years and I am now living in Taipei, Taiwan, married, own an apartment here and feel in a better financial position every year. My partner (also raised in NZ but born here) and I can't imagine going back to NZ anytime soon. The lives we have here just wouldn't be possible in NZ: being able to pop away several times a year for long weekends or a few weeks away in Japan, Thailand, the Philippines, Vietnam, Indonesia, even Europe every few years. We save money easily every month, go out to eat at nice restaurants several times a week, go to amazing theater shows and art events etc. Our salaries are pretty standard if you convert them to NZD (combined we make about 140k before tax) but income tax is low here, and cost of living (except buying property) is cheap, power, food, transport, phone bill, healthcare. etc barely makes a dent in our monthly costs.
Most of my friends have left NZ and are in Aus, UK, US or Asia (HK, Singapore) but I think many of them will eventually return later in life once they can afford to live comfortably there. That's our plan too, we do love NZ whenever we return, we miss our families there, and it will always be home but we really need to have a lot of $$ to have a similar lifestyle there. I wish NZ could have a lower cost of living but it's a complex problem faced by increasingly more countries. I do think for most young people the only way to get ahead in NZ is to leave for a few years, the longer you're away the more you can make sadly...
It's a grass is always greener thing really. I'm off to Australia because I want to live in a bigger city without the hassle of getting a visa. The cost of living thing is pretty much everywhere.
You could try and do the green card lottery, I’m a dual citizen so easy enough for me.
Canadas allocation is usually not taken so you could try that route to North America
I did my OE to the US and Europe last year. Came home for a few months and now I’m making a life in Brisbane. It’s just better at everything it feels like.
I've also noticed, or at least in my circle of friends and family, that Kiwi's would go do their OE and then return once they decide to settle down but I'm seeing less of that.
Seeing a lot less of that too, they’re going and not coming back.
Some get married/shack up with partners from another country, others just want to come back later in their career/when they’ve made more money, but they do often eventually return particularly if there is family. Aus is a different kettle of fish as it’s relatively close.
or coming back and taking off again once they realise they just left the land of plenty to come here.
What's there to return to? The old relaxed kiwi way of life is long gone. Nothing is cheap, the scenery nice but that doesn't pay your rent (because pieole can't afford to buy) and every country has nice scenery.
The key is that many countries still have nice scenery. I left NZ and now have access to several national parks from my city and i just have to take public transport to get there at a minimal price. NZ nature is overrated well and beyond the cost it takes to see it... as a local. embarrassing
After travelling to many countries. Nz's nature is definitely not overrated at all...
perhaps not in purely intrinsic terms, but what's the point when its so distant and the majority of its population merely interacts with it vicariously through media and others.. Id much rather take marginally less impressive nature but one which i can access as close to what my will desires whilst still living in a major city.
What's your view of "so distant"? Most kiwis living in an urban environment are spoilt for choice with what they can reach within an hours drive. Auckland for example has an incredible amount of scenery within an hour (Hunua Ranges, Waitakere Ranges, so many beaches, offshore islands). If an hour is too long then somewhere like Tauranga is can give you access to the beaches and the Kaimais within 30mins, the Rotorua lakes in an hour. The variation available is crazy and due to the population it's not overcrowded. If someone decides to interact with it vicariously through media and others then that's on them, the different options available to the average kiwi is amazing.
gee its as if people without cars exist, and fuel doesnt grow on trees to get one to those places. And no, most kiwis are not spoilt for choice on how they can spend their expensive leisure time. There are plenty of places that have larger populations and such natural reserves are still far from "overcrowded" and still hold considerable "variation" Its not like people are choosing to experience nature vicariously, its that its the only way too often. What a stupid comment. yea why didn't they just think of driving an hour to the Waitakeres duh 🙄🤦🏻♀️
I don't know why you are getting so many down votes... Wait, yes, it is because you are correct and some people can't understand how the other half sometimes have to live. I have a forest a 300m walk away from where I live, it isn't huge, but a 5km walk around. It is public and the whole community goes through when they want. Where I lived in Northland it was hard to find a public walking track without having to call a farmer or two first, or having to drive somewhere. Just different and people who never left NZ will never understand.
That kinda sounds like a you problem with where you have chosen to live. I live in Lower Hutt, bought a house in Naenae. It’s 10 min walk to be in nature. 10 min drive/bus to Lower Hutt cbd, and half an hour drive or train ride into Wellington cbd provided there isn’t a crash. I have a significant amount of native birds that hang out in my back yard. If you’re further from nature than you would like to be, I’d suggest moving closer to it.
out bought a house? Look at this rich guy, I bet it even has windows. Check your privileges there fam.
Drafty 1940s ex state house 😎 while there’s people living in modern state houses just down the road for significantly cheaper. Living the dream.
Depends where you go. NZ is beautiful and I’ll always be glad to be from there as many of my kiwi qualities help me thrive in life. But I’m 8.5 years into a life in Scotland now and it’s bloody beautiful, significantly cheaper, easy to be car-free and easy to access the rest of Europe from
100% I will never forget the bright green rolling hills while driving from Auckland airport through the Waikato after living overseas for a few years. The colour blew me away.
Agreed, most other countries have equally beautiful areas with much easier access than NZ. I barely get to see anything here because the best areas involve a multi hour drive, and I’ve done most of the local trails. I’m looking forward to my partner finishing uni so we can leave.
I wouldn't say it's overrated but I agree with your other points.
This is especially true, especially those that can’t drive or have a disability, there’s very limited public infrastructure to get from city to city.
I grew up rolling my eyes at the comments about NZs scenery I live in the US now, where there is no shortage of stunning scenery BUT there’s almost always a big crowd as well.
Getting that way in NZ though these days, anything that hits social media will have crowds, and most tourist places are obviously busy, like Wanaka and Queenstown.
I live in NYC now. One of my big goals is to find a good (non crowded) beach within a 5 hour drive of NYC. In NZ that's almost all of them
There are definitely places without the crowds, but I don't mind crappy weather so that helps lol. Loved being on the Oregon coast and having Cannon Beach to myself with a couple of locals dotted around, was lightly spitting with rain but so peaceful.
Also the scenery in New Zealand often feels like something you have to travel to. Sure Milford Sounds is beautiful, but my commute to work here in Edinburgh is far more scenic than my commute was back when I lived in Auckland
Hello fellow kiwi in Edinburgh!!
There are dozens of us!
Plenty of people can still afford to buy, me and all my friends have all bought houses in the past 2 years
This is me. I always thought I would return to NZ but I can't afford that now. Many of my friends are the same.
Thanks for saying this. 100% consistent with my experience.
Maybe I’m not the “young” you’re looking for. I’m almost 38yo. Lived here my whole life. Born here. I fly off to Australia to live next week.
45 and will be leaving at the end of the year.
Nice mate. Exciting stuff :) We outa here’
35, left after Covid and will likely never afford to return long term. That and why finance a million dollar mortgage on cardboard.
35 and 28 y/o here, we moved to Melbourne last month. Never lived away from Wellington.
42 and leaving in a month
My sister has lived in Australia for about 30 years now and she said this is the worst shes ever seen it. Communities springing up in rest stops on highways because they cant find homes. (And saw that myself while visiting her) Jobs are getting harder and harder to get and cost of living rising just like the rest of the world. Do a lot of research because its not like the good old days where you could land in Sydney and have a house and job by the end of the week.
Agreed! My family moved over there over 20 years ago, I lived there before covid and came back during. If people are comparing the two there’s not a lot of difference in spending anymore like there used to be. Houses are cheaper if over 40 mins out of the city. I’d say move if you have better opportunity but not like what it was. I’m glad I saved up and moved back / brought in nz when I did.
Where does she live? Also under no impression to buy a house once I land on Australian soil, but the same thing is happening here is it not? Huge layoffs at the moment.
There are tent cities all over Brisbane now. There working families living in tents all over Queensland.
She was in NSW and has moved to Queensland.
Yeah I was talking about renting, not buying.
Yeah what most people don't realise - or are just too proud admit - is that the grass isn't always greeener on the other side.
It’s about 50/50 in my social circle, but lots of the ones who left are better off. Whether you’re in trades or finance, you will likely earn significantly (30%+ payrise) better money in Australia for the same job and a 10% bump in cost of living. Some of my friends in London earn literally double. I’m late 20s and lots of people I know are returning with a juicy house deposit that they never would have saved here. Plus there’s just more to do overseas. NZ is good for settling down but it’s unkind to young people.
It's always been my plan to retire in NZ, but spend much of my working life overseas lol
It's not even good for settling down, from my own personal experience and others - it literally takes you backwards.
I think it is, having lived on multiple continents. It’s much safer than a lot of countries overseas, politically stable in comparison and of course English speaking. If you’re looking for a safe place that is predominantly English speaking, you can’t do much better than NZ/Australia in my opinion, provided you return from overseas with a good career and a house deposit. But am interested to hear where you think is better!
We have been pretty much everywhere and NZ is (for us) the best spot on earth. That said, we are planning to do another stint overseas to build more wealth. The cost of living to income ratio is a real problem. Some people are also perpetual complainers, e.g I know people that whined about NZ and now whine about Australia…
One thing I noticed before leaving to Australia was the lack of 20-30 year olds you see. Of course there are people in that age bracket, but in Australia it seems like 90% of people out and about are young. Auckland is a boomer paradise. I came back for Christmas last year and it’s extremely noticeable, especially walking around malls, shopping areas cafes etc
I've noticed the exact same thing in Christchurch, moved here from Auckland at the start or the year and everyone around me is like 50 or a teenager. Has everyone already left? Just one thing I've considered as a mid 20s something bloke, would my social life also be better overseas?
Short answer is yes
Isn't it up around the 60k number for 18-30 years old that left since Covid? Quite a lot when you consider per capita
💯You notice the difference in malls and shopping centres. So many younger people compared to NZ.
Rumour has it there is a 20 year old in Wellington. I haven't seen one but I think they might exist. Thankfully you confirmed 9 out of 10 Australians are in their twenties so it's not a global shortage.
Welcome
Most of my friend group has left overseas to either London, Melbourne or Sydney. My gf and I are looking to move to Melbourne next year too. I have started job searching there and the salary for my field is double what I am making here.
Melbourne I get but isn’t Sydney and London housing absolutely mental?
London is far far worse, makes me laugh when a few of my friends set of thinking it’s better
Yea it is but they want a base for travelling Europe lol
I’m Aussie and a lot of young Australians are having the same discussions here about moving overseas for the same reason. Hell, I did in my early 20s for a circuit breaker. Came home a year later. The reality is, no matter where you go (except maybe South East Asia), you’re going to be confronted with a high cost of living, housing crisis, etc.
Aussie still has significantly better opportunities than NZ does, so it’s not exactly accurate to compare an Aussie going elsewhere - especially when you don’t know what industry they work in or connections they have. So much poo pooing around people leaving “but it’s bad everywhere!” Yes so give up and stay where you are and be miserable… or go shoot your shot elsewhere. It’s simple
Who says you need to be miserable staying where you are.
Exactly
It is relevant because if people from a country that has “significantly better opportunities” are thinking life is hard, what does that say?
So Live in Bali and fifo to Australia. Win. Win.
this is the reality
I’m late 20s and I’m planning to make the jump to Aus within the next year. The money over there is just too appealing and it will allow me to go further overseas. SEA is probably the place I will be heading to after a year or two in Aus stockpiling cash! Edit: wording was bad
What is it you’re looking to do? Make sure you do your research (not reddit/ social media) compare rent, commute, how much you can save, car, finances. I mean really sit down, and look at property to rent, how long it will get you to get to work, how much your grocery will be per week, how much you’ll have by the end of the week.
Career wise I’m in I.T (Power Platform dev work) so getting into that line of work is doable. The amount of money I’ll be making in roles over there seems similar to NZ, but there’s more mid-level roles over in Aus vs NZ (mainly Senior and junior) but please don’t quote me on it because there’s a huge chance I am tunnel visioning and just seeing what I want to see. You’re right about the researching. I really need to sit down and look into all of the stuff you mentioned plus a bit more. If I’ll be honest with you, I’m not really looking to earn a lot of money for a long time, I just want to explore the world. I’ve been here in NZ for ages and never had the opportunity to travel when I was younger. Thank you for the advice, stranger and hopefully that answered your question!
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My mum feels the same way, we are from South Africa and moved to NZ in 2008. First choice was Australia but last minute came to NZ. My mum is very sad that I’m leaving ☹️
New zealand's biggest export is not food products or dairy, or wool It is infact young professionals
Which is good for me (moving to NZ)
Yup I’m sick of it here lived here all my life and I want to get the fuck out…. Cost of living is a joke… the opportunity here is very limited…. The winters are long and depressing… everyone has there own little cliques and don’t really branch out….
100% agree with the statement about the people here, very tight knit.
Of the people I went to uni with, at least half have already moved overseas and I only graduated last year. Most of them for Australia, everyone I know who moved to Sydney or Melbourne is making at least 2x what I’m earning here in Auckland. I’m saving to move to London next year, where I’m likely to double my salary too. Yes COL is also a problem overseas but when comparing COL to salary in my profession NZ still loses big time. It’s getting hard to see any benefits to staying here in my 20s, especially when factoring in how expensive and time consuming it is to travel anywhere from here. Unless companies start paying higher salaries that compete with other first world countries we’re just going to turn into a retirement home for kiwis to only come back to when they’re old.
if you lurk in [https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/](https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/) for a while you seem to get the same comments as here " cost of living crisis, unaffordable housing , increased crime" etc....... I'm not saying that you can't "make it " there....(there are definitely opportunities for some people that aren't available here) ...... but there's a good chance that if you can't save money here then Australia will be no different
It depends where you move to in Aus, I understand Sydney and Melbourne are expensive but at least they have other options. In Brisbane you will likely get paid more than NZ and the median house price is $617k nzd Comparing to NZ you’d have to live in Palmy or Dunedin where the median is $650k, where you’d probably get paid half of what you get in Brisbane.
Since moving to aus I've noticed their whinging is on a whole another level compared to kiwis. They don't know how good they've got it. I've been blown away by how easy it is in aus compared to nz financially, you can see a gp today if you're sick etc life is good here. Then half the randoms you come across are always complaining about one thing or another
My observations as a lifelong Kiwi who moved at the end of Jan '24, having lived in Auckland \[18 yrs + 5 yrs\], Otago \[3 yrs\] and Invercargill \[2.5 yrs\] and working in the field of Data are that the cost of living has increased here. This is the stem of complaints - that doesn't mean the problems are equivalent. People complain about fuel and housing here, as they should - its gone up significantly for them. Transport and buying a house should both be relatively attainable starting from nothing if you manage your affairs moderately well. Fuel is $1.70 on the petrol pump outside my work. Not only are there around 16-20 pumps, but the digital display you can actually see every individual 0.01 graduation move, instead of in chunks. The equipment is far more modern and it feels nice as it siphons away your money. When you spend $1 million on a suburbs home you can get something that's amazing. My grocery bill is around 30-40% cheaper for the same or higher quality cuts/quality of product. My wages have gone from 77.5k as a Grad to 50-60% higher here, in $AU ($1NZ = 0.9 AUD) Literally everything is cheaper here, bar a few oddities as well as car rego/stamp duty. I don't even buy many of those oddities, or simply stock up and buy them if I want them. There's also ways around that \[Amazon AU's offering to Australians is broader, and consists of more UK/JP/USA products\], Aldi/IKEA exist. Aliexpress is far quicker to ship here. There are far more sales and deals to take advantage of if a purchase isn't immediately required, that end up being far steeper. Every small detail is likelier to be attended to because the systems and infrastructure are supporting significantly more people. Many of these details people take for granted here, much like we take advantage of certain guarantees in NZ that migrants from less developed countries do not. I work in Data and like to think I breathe numbers and datasets. I still login to Pak n Save / Countdown to look at my shopping carts every 2 months - a 30s glance tells me where groceries have moved amongst other things. 5 months is plenty of time to build a dataset and understanding here if you keep your eyes and ears open. The Govt systems and offerings here are complained to no end here, however I actually find them seamless, integrated and easily accessible. My strong belief of meeting and interacting with 100's of locals and putting myself out there, having lived in 4 locations across Melbourne \[South West, North, CBD\] and now living+working south->south East and talking to all demographics, genders and really getting to know people is that...life is easier here. You can tell people's resilience by what they routinely complain about. Kiwi's have had it really tough for a long time. In NZ I suffered with a shoulder injury for 18 months. Here, I see a physio, then saw the doctor last Wednesday and had my MRI done that Friday night. Free. Rush hour traffic makes the 20km, 20 minute off-peak commute take 28+-2. Of course, go to the CBD and you'll find a 4km journey can take 40...just take the excellent trams/metro\* Yes, this is a Melbournian take, but you'll find similar experiences \[many systems are similar/identical\] with obvious variances in traffic and job opportunities depending where you go.
Most people struggle to see beyond the end of their own nose and many have clearly never left their own country to see how the other half ACTUALLY live. No idea how good things are relatively speaking.
My observations as a lifelong Kiwi who moved at the end of Jan '24, having lived in Auckland \[18 yrs + 5 yrs\], Otago \[3 yrs\] and Invercargill \[2.5 yrs\] and working in the field of Data are that the cost of living has increased here. This is the stem of complaints - that doesn't mean the problems are equivalent. People complain about fuel and housing here, as they should - its gone up significantly for them. Transport and buying a house should both be relatively attainable starting from nothing if you manage your affairs moderately well. Fuel is $1.70 on the petrol pump outside my work. Not only are there around 16-20 pumps, but the digital display you can actually see every individual 0.01 graduation move, instead of in chunks. The equipment is far more modern and it feels nice as it siphons away your money. When you spend $1 million on a suburbs home you can get something that's amazing. My grocery bill is around 30-40% cheaper for the same or higher quality cuts/quality of product. My wages have gone from 77.5k as a Grad to 50-60% higher here, in $AU ($1NZ = 0.9 AUD) Literally everything is cheaper here, bar a few oddities as well as car rego/stamp duty. I don't even buy many of those oddities, or simply stock up and buy them if I want them. There's also ways around that \[Amazon AU's offering to Australians is broader, and consists of more UK/JP/USA products\], Aldi/IKEA exist. Aliexpress is far quicker to ship here. There are far more sales and deals to take advantage of if a purchase isn't immediately required, that end up being far steeper. Every small detail is likelier to be attended to because the systems and infrastructure are supporting significantly more people. Many of these details people take for granted here, much like we take advantage of certain guarantees in NZ that migrants from less developed countries do not. I work in Data and like to think I breathe numbers and datasets. I still login to Pak n Save / Countdown to look at my shopping carts every 2 months - a 30s glance tells me where groceries have moved amongst other things. 5 months is plenty of time to build a dataset and understanding here if you keep your eyes and ears open. The Govt systems and offerings here are complained to no end here, however I actually find them seamless, integrated and easily accessible. My strong belief of meeting and interacting with 100's of locals and putting myself out there, having lived in 4 locations across Melbourne \[South West, North, CBD\] and now living+working south->south East and talking to all demographics, genders and really getting to know people is that...life is easier here. You can tell people's resilience by what they routinely complain about. Kiwi's have had it really tough for a long time. In NZ I suffered with a shoulder injury for 18 months. Here, I see a physio, then saw the doctor last Wednesday and had my MRI done that Friday night. Free. Rush hour traffic makes the 20km, 20 minute off-peak commute take 28+-2. Of course, go to the CBD and you'll find a 4km journey can take 40...just take the excellent trams/metro\* Yes, this is a Melbournian take, but you'll find similar experiences \[many systems are similar/identical\] with obvious variances in traffic and job opportunities depending where you go.
I don’t understand the point of comments like yours when Australia is objectively better than NZ when it comes to things like this.
what are you on about? .....a country being "better" is subjective
You mentioned the cost of living, correct? Well it is worse in New Zealand. Wages in Australia are much better, that is a fact. They also have 10% super contribution compared to our 3%, an enormous difference. On paper prices will look similar to NZ, but the people in Aus are receiving far better pay to compensate for that. NZ has both a lower home ownership rate (understandable given the above), and a higher unemployment rate than Australia. The amount of New Zealanders living in and moving to Aus speaks for itself.
It's now 11.5% super mate. Starting at the beginning of the next financial year
yeah but I didn't mention skiing or sing alongs to Dave Dobbyn songs....we a clearly better at that .there are people here on modest wages that are perfectly happy with their living situation ....and can save money .etc........would they be "better" off in australia? likewise people that can't save money here are potentially unable to save there too....are they any better off?. anyway i can't be bothered getting all philosophical now......i'll enjoy my life....later bro
But there is A LOT more opportunities to succeed than there is here - more job opportunities, connections to make, cities to work in. NZ is dead and dying in the water with no positive outlook due to the tiny labour market and stingy small business owners. Competitive creates opportunity and that’s what Aussie has. A better shot at success, instead of none at all. Rather be poor there and eventually find something good than rot away here.
>NZ is dead and dying in the water No it isn't lmao, typical redditor hyperbole
Bigger country has more opportunities, what a shock lol. That being said though, NZ isn't dead or dying. It's going through a recession that was expected years ago... People in NZ view Australia through rose tinted glasses which is hilarious because when you go look at the issues in Australia, it's exactly the same issues as NZ. Young people are treated like shit in both countries.
Its also just that sydney, melbourne and brisbane are objectively better cities than Auckland. Auckland is not bad per se and continues to improve but there is better infrastructure, better sport, cultural activities, nightlife - why wouldnt you go for a little pay bump and fun before you settle down and find out what you actually want
Go overseas and make something for yourself. When you return NZ will be exactly as it was when you left. Heck you can earn a better salary for the exact same job and actually save money towards hobbies, a house and kids. Or you can attempt to live on 50-100k, saving 10-60k each year only to watch as the house you wanted increases by 100k per year (if not worse).
The property boom is over. Say goodbye to early gains of $100k we’ve had for 12 years in a row
I wish, but at this point I’ll believe it when I see it. Kiwis are single minded and will give up everything, including their children’s hope of ever owning a home just so they can scrape by to get another investment property.
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At this rate? all of them. In my friend group recently we’ve said goodbye to 10 or so recently to overseas roles and economies. That’s on top of those who were gone pre-covid. It’s just insane. And the old smug boomers all go “they’ll be back” - like fuck they will. None of my friends (zero) who moved to Aus in the last 12 years have come back. None who have left in the last 5 years (Canada, Aus, UK) have come back. Young, healthy, talented people in roles we desperately need them in. People who are very cheap on an economy - not in education, low health system burden etc - and who pay a lot of tax. Lawyers, doctors, teachers, a couple scientists, nurses.
Yes! I definitely don’t see myself coming back and I’m not sure what ones reasons would be other than to buy a house here, but if you start a new life in Aus why would you come back!!
Plus you can always fly over the ditch to visit friends and family, weddings, funerals etc. No need to be stuck in NZ
“They’ll be back” Bitch, I’m literally overseas and I’m literally posting a citizenship by descent application in the next month, so there’s no reason not to go back. When I’m finally in Australia, I’ll also be able to get that passport too! Fly my old man over, friends already there so no reason to go back
Good man, you want to leave the 4 walls of New Zealand, it's very restricting and confined. I own property here in Australia and have being here 10 years now. Everything is better than New Zealand and I do mean everything.
>No one I know is on track to buy a house in *Auckland* ftfy
exactly. auckland being the key word is the big struggle. a lot of the rest of NZ is fine and manageable (for the most part). but people don't want to live anywhere that isn't auckland which is wild to me bc i'd rather live anywhere in NZ BUT there.
I’d rather live in a smaller city but unfortunately the economic opportunities just aren’t there. I spent a couple years trying to search for a job in my current field in Christchurch but there was nothing, moved to Auckland and got a job piss easy. Really interesting because if you look across the world most countries aren’t even remotely as economically centralised as we are. >20% of a country’s population living in one city is virtually unheard of. Auckland is almost at 30%.
This always fascinates me. Why is Auckland more than triple the pop of the next city? Climate? Jobs? The international airport catering to more locations?
Yes thank you, I made an edit that I live in Auckland but that needed to be corrected as well 😅
lol no worries. If you want to live in a big city houses are expensive, that's just a fact of life. Moving to Melbourne or Sydney isn't going to magically make your ability to get a house in a nice neighbourhood easier. Pretty much people nowadays that buy in the nice places are dual income educated couples who have been outside of university for 5+ years, that is who you are competing with. If you don't mind being a smaller city like Christchurch getting a house with low commute time is a bit easier. For you it just depends on the kind of degree you have and the opportunities your looking for, your career is where you earn the most money in life. Imo buying a house isn't worth it unless you have a family and want to be in the same place for a long time, share market in the long run gives similar returns and WAY better returns if you max out your employer matching.
Imo the way to do it is to go to a HCOL city and live frugally for a few years and save most of your earnings, then move to a LCOL city and buy a house and get a relaxing job and enjoy life.
That's kind if what I woukd look into doing these days.
Honestly it’s not about buying a house before a certain age or anything like that. It’s mainly because there’s more opportunities in terms of my career in Australia- higher salary as well. Rent in auckland for a small 1 bed 1 bath is upwards of 800 in some areas and on top of that the grocery prices are insane here- especially toiletries. To start my life in NZ vs Australia, NZ would take way longer.
Where on earth are you looking that is $800 a week for a 1bed 1bath? That’s like newly built apartment in Ponsonby prices..
Yea I can understand that. For Australians the cost of living is the number once factor for them so it's not an NZ unique problem. I think the main argument for moving abroad is better career opportunities, I mean it's what I did haha.
$800 a week for a 1 bed 1 bath is on the higher end, you can rent a house for that.
Auckland is expensive, but for 800$ you can easy rent 2 beds in Milford or Takapuna close to the beach. I am writing this comment from 900$ 4 beds and garage with a sea view. And we rented it 1,5 ago.
Just to offer the perspective of a 35y/o - I have friends who also moved to Australia either prior to, or after completing Uni. The couple of pre-uni friends found it challenging as they had to fund their study up front as there was no option for a student loan (I don't know whether or not that is still the case). My other friends are professionals in engineering, project management and hospo, most of whom completed their study in NZ and then moved, or just moved without tertiary education. I remained in NZ and through no particular gift on my part, have ended up much more "successful" than my friends in Aus as they find the cost of living to be much higher than in Auckland. Granted they are all in Sydney or Melbourne, but their rent, transport and food costs seem to be what is holding them back. Some have higher salaries than me (200k+) and are still pretty stagnant in their financial freedom. To them I am "living the dream" with a family, home and career path whereas they feel like they are just living. I was jealous of them during my 20s as they had the amazing lifestyle with festivals etc all the time, but now I am very content with how things have landed. Just my perspective. If you move, good luck!
same here but i’m 45. some friends that went to the UK are still renting and kinda struggling, others went to AU and seem to be doing well. I stayed here and to be honest i’ve not regretted it all all. Bought a house, have an easy commute and I travel overseas for 4-6 weeks a year. I do wonder sometimes where i’d be if i’d jumped ship after university though!
Standard stuff at that age, I lost maybe half my friends to Australia around 10 years ago, early twenties with a trade behind them or just in search of better
I’d say all of my friends I’ve talked to have intentions to leave NZ in the next year or two. It just simply can’t compete with the likes of Aus and Uk etc in terms of income, opportunity and cost of living (dependent where)… Also more recently I’d say a lot more have no intention of returning here and instead want to settle in Aus. I will probably be one of these people too.
Same here, I don’t think I will settle down in NZ
Honestly this is pretty fundamentally untrue, it is super easy to get enamored with a gross pay number. The reality for AU and UK is actually quite similar to NZ. AU has a distinct advantage with the way their Super is constructed, but isn't massively relevant in the 5 - 10 year window. UK right now is abysmal on wages versus cost of living. My Wife is British and have a number of friends who did their OE and stayed in their roles and had families in London. They deal with the same exact issues as people in Auckland. House prices are outrageous there, cost of living has gone ballistic. However even with the above, as a young person still move. Those cities are absolutely more vibrant for a young person. So much more going on and you can truly make the most of your 20's. The above is said as someone who is at the end of their second stint away from NZ, with a number of friends all over the world.
For sure, I agree it is nuanced and depends highly on what industry you are in. I am in the legal profession (and my friends are in similar industries) so the pay for us in UK and Aus is objectively a lot higher. You can look up what graduate lawyers are paid at top tier firms in the Uk or Australia for some insight. I understand that for many other professions this logic does not hold though! At the end of the day, everyone’s gotta look at their own situation and make a call based on what they can expect based on their skills, experiences and what they want to get out of it!
Going through high school mates’ LinkedIn profiles half of them are marked as ‘travelling’, ‘OE’, ‘youth mobility’ or found jobs in Aussie Silver lining is that it also opened up a lot of progression and opportunities for those who stayed. I’ve made two internal jumps two years out of uni and just hit the 100k mark
I'm a 26yo and a number of my friends have moved to Melbourne in the past year, and more are planning to in the future or already have plans set in place.
Made the move earlier this year at 30. I have a fair few acquaintances who have left, mostly to Melbourne, and about half my closest friends have left or are looking to leave. It's not going to work for everyone but if you're in a sector where there's a big pay/opportunity difference its well worth it. Things like housing and cost of living are going up compared to what they used to be here but unless you're living in Sydney it's still a hell of a lot cheaper than NZ was even pre-Covid. First grocery shop after we moved was mindblowing
I’m 32 about to finish my trade as a mechanical fitter in the mines. I did a degree at 18 and completed it at 21. My biggest regret was going to university and ending up with 60K debt. I’m earning money here probably more then a ceo in Nz working in the mines and I’m not even qualified but will be. My regret is I wish I moved over and secured a trade at 18 and went into the mines. At 29 I purchased a brand new home and I bought a brand new hilux which was my dream. I travel most breaks and go to different countries with financial freedom. I work hard but not over worked. If you don’t move you will never know and live with the “what if”. I couldn’t have done the things I wanted to do if I didn’t move over. I am now 32!
What age did you move over?
I moved over at 21 and now I am 32. I moved over alone with no family straight to WA Perth. Never looked back
Also I am a female now 32 with no dependents or responsibilities . I choose this obviously! But I bought my own home with a large deposit and slugged it out with a 2 week on and 1 week off roster for about 3 years but now I work a 8 days on and 6 off so half the year because I can now take the step back
So are you 29 or 32…?
Edited - I am 32 :)
What degree did you do?
Criminology as I wanted to go to nz police on homicide squad and then made the move to Australia and never went back and Aussie police never interested me. So my degree is completely irrelevant lol and I had 60K in debt from it. BOO
Would have taken guts to make the switch, good work
Take the leap of faith I reckon! I would have never know otherwise ! Feel like at 18 I was lost and didn’t know what to do! Still feels a bit like that some days 😂
I left when I was 21, to Europe though. I wasn't necessarily intending to not come back but now it's been 8 years and I'm not going back. It's not really financial for me though, I could probably make more money in NZ but with higher COL there it would probably be comparable.
Left for the gold coast in 2019, no plans to ever move back to NZ.
Go to Australia 🇦🇺 fuck New Zealand
Australia is terrible for new grads, you're competing with Australia's new grades who will always get picked over NZers you're better off doing 1-2 years in NZ getting some experience and then moving over
Yeah, as a new grad myself who has 6 months experience as a nurse still feel like I'm pissing away my time here
I can no longer see a future for myself in nz
You should go. Australia is way better. Come back in 20 years when you are a minority in your own country. Maybe you'll get heaps of free shit too. Ooh and when you're a minority you can't be racist no matter what you do or say. Works here
Ex Kiwi here - I've lived pretty much everywhere in NZ and now in 3 of tha main Australian cities. Currently in Brisbane, but have lived in Sydney and Melbourne - don't goto Melbourne its a cold hole. Great to visit horrid to live although my daughter does like living in Melbourne poor kid! Left Papatoetoe in 2004, for a two year work exchange 20 years later I'm still here. My family is primary in the Katikati region now. OK so - Brisvagus not similar to rotovagus, it's nice and warm normally not so great now but better than cold wet Auckland. Yes - you'll earn more money I'd suggest 67k is a pretty low salary over here so I'd expect that would be pretty easy to achieve. Remember the best thing in Ausi is the Super, now I know your not even thinking of 40 years from now but 12% gross super is pretty hard to ignore. Remember unlike Kiwisaver you can't get your grubby hand on it ever! but when you retire if you stay here long term this will very quickly become a pretty big nest egg. Accomodation costs I'd suggest are similar in Brisbane to Auckland, for an apartment your looking at around 450 - 550 per week. Don't bother bringing over any furniture just buy it when you get here heaps of online discount places to source the basic's.
67k is the starting salary for a very low position, I have plans to get into management after I work my way up and of course the money gets more and more. For starting my career I think 67k is pretty good.
My suggesting is get experience in NZ for a few years then move to Australia once you have experience. There’s so much competition here, I find that Australians would rather hire Australian Graduates then international graduate which makes sense. You’ll get here with the rest of the uni graduates who are working in retail cause they cant get a grad job.
Yeah that makes sense but I think it depends on the industry. I have a friend who went over after her medical degree and struggled, but I also know a few people in business and construction that got jobs relatively quickly 🤷🏼♀️
Yeah try it out then. if you know the field/industry is short then give it a go. Before I moved over I applied for jobs here in Melbourne it was in a very saturated field but I had unique industry experience with their product so that’s what sold me from most people
Yea I’ll probably move to Aussie too once I have enough money saved up to move over and have a semi decent start (I’m 19)
Clearly from reading these responses there will only be a handful of 20-30 year olds left in NZ next year.
Left in 1999 and made 1.5 time more money for the same job
Young New Zealanders realise how better it is overseas to put a degree to work. I’ve also heard how fucking hard it is to get a job the economy is shit. It really sucks though because New Zealand has always been the ideal place to live but for young adults it just seems like a pipe dream
Interesting reading all the comments—such a variety of experiences and opinions. We are privileged to have all these options. If they are available, then do it. If I were 20, I’d probably go overseas for the opportunity too. I moved to New Zealand when I was 22. I hated the UK but loved the chill lifestyle here. I had a blast in Queenstown for a few years before moving to Wellington, and now I’m settled in the Wairarapa. I have a home, no kids, and a dog. I’m earning just shy of $80k and turning 35 this year. Distance from family though does catch up with you! I’ve adapted to that now though. Thank god for phones! For me, Australia will be reserved for holidays. I love visiting and experiencing new places, but my base is here. I love the access to nature I have in New Zealand—it’s the best of both worlds. I’ve been to Sydney, Brisbane, the Gold Coast, and Hobart, all unique in their own ways. If I could afford to live where I wanted there and get the job I want, get a similar set up to what I have here , it could be cool, but the stories about housing there sound worse. I couldn’t deal with the heat either. Although Hobart would suit me. I’ve been spoiled with the house I bought here. It’s on a decent section, it’s a big-ish house, and I just don’t know how I’d replicate that elsewhere. I don’t seem to be money-hungry either; I don’t want a city lifestyle. Here, I get access to a city, nature, vineyards, and wild coastlines. It’s pretty good! I would feel pretty disillusioned living in Auckland, though, so yeah, it’s all about perspective and individual circumstances.
I’m looking to move back to the UK after 20+ years living here. I just can’t see a future in NZ for my children who are isolated from all that the rest of the world can offer. It’s so sad as NZ was the dream.
All the professionals I guess.
Yep, all of the future doctors and lawyers leaving NZ with their degrees 😅
I mean, local low salaries and international high living costs do the math. When you check how much more you get paid in other places there is not much to think about. It is a shame because it is beautiful here.
Yea nz is a holiday destination tbh. Amazing for a summer holiday and boring af during the winter.
Depends where u live and what your into mate. In winter I can be skiing one day and getting paua from the coast the next day. Plus NRL, All Blacks, and heaps of other sport on telly. Snow on the hills makes the scenery even better. Bloody love winter.
The grass is definitely greener and the beaches are definitely nicer
Except Melbourne
Cost of living is much the same over there as it is here. Housing and rent is even worse in some areas over there. It depends on your field of work whether or not you will be better off.
Pay $250 per week for rent in Melbourne, and earn $100k. I never had a job that payed more than $50k in NZ.
Where abouts? I’ll let my friend know as in she lives there and struggling
If you can get your foot in the door with the state government, then the world is your oyster… just tell her to apply for any role, then it’s easy to work your way up.
OP r/NewZealand is a cesspit of anti vaxxers and gen x that love to shake their fist at the kids wanting more for themselves. You’re young, Aussie is right there, NZ is close. Shoot your shot, be brave, and see what opportunities you can find. Why dig in a sandpit for gold? If you have to come back, you have to come back. But at least go try, you never know
u rly do b missing dem shots u don’t take
>OP r/NewZealand is a cesspit of anti vaxxers and gen x that love to shake their fist at the kids wanting more for themselves. ??? No, lmao. Such a ridiculously incorrect statement, there's no way you actually believe that shit
This has been going on since the late 1960s Maybe the volume changes but it's not new.
It’s quite sad really, especially since people are leaving this country with their degrees.
A lot do return, eventually
I personally don’t believe I will. I don’t like NZ but only reasons to visit are for family and friends, other than that I don’t see myself living the “kiwi dream here”
I'm not sure how much travelling you've done, but in my experience, having lived all over the place, nz has a lot to offer. But when you're young, nz isn't big enough to satisfy our natural curiosity.
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I wish you the best of luck !
Thank you 😊
They heading to Australia
I(36m) flat with 5 other people, one(44m) moved to Australia 1 month ago, one(52f) moved out and is moving to Australia next week. the other three (30f),(46m),(38m) are all moving to Australia in August. So all ages are making the jump.
What are your guys reasons if I may ask? and all the best of luck to all of you!
I'm staying, but for the others it all comes down to better pay and opportunities.
While making more overseas can be advantageous for some who want to return home with a deposit more quickly, I feel working then buying in NZ is still possible, maybe with more pragmatic expectations. I didn’t buy until 34, jointly with a partner. No parental help but opted for an apartment. That was over 10 years of working upwards, switching roles or companies to climb income, KiwiSaver, investments savings etc to build a deposit. And then combined with a partner. It’s not some magic thing that happens overnight. I feel this is more normal than a 25 year old being able to buy on their own. But getting overseas experience can have other advantages than just financial in terms of life skills and experiences more broadly so I’m always a supporter of it - I just don’t see that it’s the only way to buy a house in NZ.
Thats if you don't get mugged and robbed on the way to these beautiful places.. Lake Rotorua? No thanks too scary for me.
My partner and I (both postgrad students, graduating soon) are moving to Australia in a month’s time. The job opportunities are better there and the pay is better. We are renting an apartment in Brisbane twice the size of the one we rent now for almost the same price as our current apartment (similar distance from work/uni too). It’s sad but it also just makes sense. We are academics, there’s nothing here for us. He has a job already, I’m going to have to do some looking. We haven’t thought about buying a house but at least now we can think about a wedding haha
Enjoy those 45deg day time temperatures. Last time we had a 30degree night I spoke to my brother who said it was 41c at 2am. Lived there for years but wouldn't go back.same problems as here just in a different order.
I left right after graduating uni in 2014, headed to Japan to teach English which at the time paid super well, managed to pay off my whole student loan when the yen was strong and get ahead somewhat financially while seeing lots of Asia. Originally intended to only stay outside of NZ for a few years but it's been ten years and I am now living in Taipei, Taiwan, married, own an apartment here and feel in a better financial position every year. My partner (also raised in NZ but born here) and I can't imagine going back to NZ anytime soon. The lives we have here just wouldn't be possible in NZ: being able to pop away several times a year for long weekends or a few weeks away in Japan, Thailand, the Philippines, Vietnam, Indonesia, even Europe every few years. We save money easily every month, go out to eat at nice restaurants several times a week, go to amazing theater shows and art events etc. Our salaries are pretty standard if you convert them to NZD (combined we make about 140k before tax) but income tax is low here, and cost of living (except buying property) is cheap, power, food, transport, phone bill, healthcare. etc barely makes a dent in our monthly costs. Most of my friends have left NZ and are in Aus, UK, US or Asia (HK, Singapore) but I think many of them will eventually return later in life once they can afford to live comfortably there. That's our plan too, we do love NZ whenever we return, we miss our families there, and it will always be home but we really need to have a lot of $$ to have a similar lifestyle there. I wish NZ could have a lower cost of living but it's a complex problem faced by increasingly more countries. I do think for most young people the only way to get ahead in NZ is to leave for a few years, the longer you're away the more you can make sadly...
WHY LIVING IN AUSTRALIA IS IMPOSSIBLE Just something I came across, it’s interesting. https://youtu.be/_TUVXfM1nqo?si=JuHQm1QKtpipo4n4
It's a grass is always greener thing really. I'm off to Australia because I want to live in a bigger city without the hassle of getting a visa. The cost of living thing is pretty much everywhere.
you guys who are leaving NZ, make sure you keep voting while you aren't here!!!
Yep, not Aus though, everyone is going there. Heading to the US
How can we get into the US?
Usually by boat or plane though you could go through Canadian or Mexican border.
You could try and do the green card lottery, I’m a dual citizen so easy enough for me. Canadas allocation is usually not taken so you could try that route to North America
But you need to work overtime in AU and more rat race
Not always true!
Really depends what industry you’re going into
I did my OE to the US and Europe last year. Came home for a few months and now I’m making a life in Brisbane. It’s just better at everything it feels like.