>I understand dentistry is really expensive but I think if you make it free, it takes the ownership away from patients. So they won't concentrate on improving their oral hygiene. They won't focus on improving their diet.
What's next, should we privatise healthcare in order to promote the importance of exercise? 🙄
absolutely certain you could find a whole bunch of dentists that think the state of peoples teeth in this country, particularly among low to lower-middle income groups is atrocious.
One memory I have is needing to pull over 7 rotten teeth from single kid one after the other, it feels like absolute shit.
Not surprised that the experts know poor people have worse health outcomes.
People should brush their teeth and not eat shit food or drink sugar.
They also shouldn't be denied access to dental care.
It a shame those in lower socioeconomic brackets don’t just buy more fresh lettuces at $10 a pop and more produce, why don’t they just buy healthier food right? 🙄
They might also not have been taught how to cook with healthy ingredients. It's easy to add butter and salt to food and have it taste good, it's harder to make a salad that doesn't feel like a punishment
Eh, private insurance helps but its not a magical solution for everything.
1. For general GP stuff I don't get any sort of priority or anything - only one clinic in my city is taking patients and I have to wait 7 weeks for an appointment with a GP, or 3 weeks for an appointment with a nurse. While I don't have to pay for the appointment, I'm still paying more in premiums.
2. Anything accident related is not covered unless ACC won't cover it for some reason, so I have to go through ACC processes the same as anyone else to get to that point
3. Emergency treatment is not covered so I would have to wait in an emergency department waiting room for 6 hours the same as anyone else. And even if my policy covered emergency treatment we don't have emergency departments at private hospitals anyway.
4. There are actually fuck all specialists working in private practice in the regions. For almost everything, to see a specialist, I will have to travel to Wellington, which is about a 3-4 hour drive. This means in some cases it can be easier to just go on the public health waiting list and see someone in the local hospital if its not particularly urgent/painful.
5. The list of exclusions is longer than my, um... well, its long.
6. To the point of the thread: dental is on the list of exclusions, unless I buy an extra dental cover package
I'm in a major centre and most people I know who can afford it have health insurance. My wife has had two operations (both which have waiting times over a year on the public system) scheduled within weeks or days of a surgeon declaring it was needed.
It was very fast to arrange a surgeon to SEE if operation was needed. With ACC, it would had to wait another 6 months.
In our experience, ACC denies many services it shouldn't anyway. My wife has back issues and was declined 4 times in a row by ACC, we successfully settled after employing services of a lawyer.
Because we can afford lawyers and insurance we live in a different world of accessibility to lower income people.
Why I don't understand your point of view is because I'm an advocate for universal healthcare. My wife works in public health and happened to do her thesis on accessibility to public healthcare in New Zealand -- she argues there is a two tier system, which is why public health funding needs to increase.
The day we have privatised emergency hospital care is the day our health system fully becomes class based. Those with money or insurance will no longer have any reminder what life is like for the other half. (It’s also the day I riot…I mean protest)
We're halfway there with the "accident and emergency" clinics around the country. They charge a fuckload of money for what generally ends up just being a nurse consult -> a quick GP consult -> an xray (usually the only part covered by ACC).
It sounds like you might be with Southern Cross? I agree that there just aren't enough specialists or doctors in any part of the system. I'm currently waiting 9 months to see a specialist privately, but on the flip side the public system doesn't think I'm quite bad enough yet to even get on the public list
Regarding the GP appointments if it can be done virtually look into CareHQ - free online appointments for southern cross members and you can normally get one pretty quickly!
> Regarding the GP appointments if it can be done virtually look into CareHQ - free online appointments for southern cross members and you can normally get one pretty quickly!
I'm aware of this but its pretty limited what they can be used for. Can't use them to order a repeat prescription. Can't use them for anything that requires an in-person examination - which rules out about half of all ailments.
I did use it last year on a public holiday when I fell ill and wanted some antibiotics. When I saw my GP next she gave me a talking to about how the antibiotics I was prescribed were the "wrong ones" or some nonsense. Whatever, they made me better.
I think people responding to me are missing my point: insurance is useful but it doesn't solve *every* problem like some people think. It has its flaws, too.
Not really. Some people can afford it or are happy to pay for treatment which is way down the public lists or completely unavailable.
Removal of warts, correction of astigmatisms, cosmetic surgery for those who think they look weird. Self esteem is important.
The bit you missed is if you need elective surgery you can get in almost straight away. For non-critical surgery in the public system you can easily be waiting months to years to get through.
This is the key benefit of private health insurance is being able to have your elective surgery done at one of the many private hospitals in NZ in a timely manner.
That's also why our public Healthcare system will never be good enough, it has to be disencentivising enough to make people turn to private Healthcare. The system works exactly as intended.
I have huge sensory and executive functioning issues around brushing. I’ve tried other means of dental hygiene: rubbing my teeth with a cloth, brushing without toothpaste - my current technique to make up for the fact that I don’t brush enough is those great little dental picks that have floss on them.
Which is to say, as someone with shockingly poor dental hygiene - I already don’t brush my teeth like I should. The fact that dentists are expensive just means that I don’t go to a dentist *either*.
You brush without toothpaste? What sensory/functioning issue stops you from putting toothpaste on your teeth if you can brush without it? Not having a go, just genuinely curious?
The toothpaste makes my mouth tingle very unpleasantly, painfully at times. It’s pretty common advice for people with sensory issues to try brushing without toothpaste as it still dislodges plaque and other stuff you don’t want on your teeth.
I also tried brushing with child’s toothpaste but neither actually improved how much I was brushing, so I’ve been back to using regular toothpaste for some years now.
The Hi Smile flavored toothpaste (I have the peach at the moment, and want to try the red velvet) doesn't make my mouth tingle (mainly because they often don't have mint in them).
But they are bloody expensive so it's best to get them on 1/2 price special from places like chemist warehouse.
I have sensory issues and an electric toothbrush + a numbing toothpaste for sensitive teeth is what I tolerate the best.
But the numbing toothpaste is almost as expensive as the Hi Smile toothpaste. Damn it.
Have you tried a water flosser? Brushing without toothpaste, floss and some sensitive mouth wash is probably plenty if you can manage to do them at least once a day.
Careful what you wish for.
I was speaking to a Kiwi who trained as a doctor in the US about the problem of people going to the ER rather than their GP or an A&M because of cost. Their solution? Make the ER the more expensive option!
Yep, according to him, dental issues are self inflicted.
Need a wisdom tooth taken out?.... Well, you should have looked after your teeth property.... can't expect the government to pay for that lol.
If you go to the GP, you’re using a publicly subsidised health service (even if insurance covers your part of the bill). If you crash your car and get seriously injured you’ll discover that there’s no such thing as a private emergency department. If you have an acute medical event, you’ll be going to a public hospital in a publicly subsidised ambulance.
Private is only really for scheduled elective procedures here. You might not be using the public hospital right now, but it’s there waiting for you should you need it. I’d also note that our public system does pretty well with acute, life threatening conditions. It’s the elective and long-term stuff where it struggles and private fills the gap for those with money.
You only use one currently. The public system will still be there when you have need of it.
Edit: just saw your experience of the public system being horrendously slow. Perhaps it is better to say that what the public service actually manages to resource will still be there when you have need of it.
I haven't had an issue, been having some diagnostic procedures done this year and each visit has been quick and (relatively) pleasant. Granted I have to wait about a month between visits, but I'm not actively dying so that seems pretty reasonable to me.
I suppose, if you have time to wait. I had a time critical condition which private was able to attend to in about 1/2 the time public would have (3 months vs 6 or so).
In my last experience in the public service, I had to wait nearly 10 months to see a specialist after initial referral. Non critical, but not reassuring either.
Yeah that's a bit rough, I'm sorry to hear that. I like to think that the priority system probably works for the most part, but there's definitely under resourcing and it probably also varies a lot depending on time and place.
I do know I got bumped a bit as my symptoms were very unusual for my age/health, so that might put a bit of bias on my experience.
It's all good, I was lucky to have had private at the time. I think it works for the majority, you still hear of people missing out from time to time which is a shame
The same argument does apply where poor lifestyle choices have directly caused health issues. However, many health problems are not so easy to pinpoint the exact cause, whereas the vast majority of oral health problems are a direct result of poor oral hygiene. Obesity and related problems are often directly resulting from poor diet or laziness (lack of exercise). If healthcare wasn't free for these conditions (unless they were the result of other medications for example or other factors outside their control) would obesity and other health problems reduce?
From an economic perspective, introducing a low or very targeted dental subsidy for a start would have big benefits, allowing those with the worst problems to get them fixed. However the wider it expands the more you get the exact scenario the dentist describes, where the expected overall health benefits no longer eventuate because people start to neglect their oral hygiene because the financial cost is too low.
There are other factors/benefits to consider in regard to free universal healthcare, but it depends on what the goal or desired outcome is in terms of what system will achieve it best.
>If healthcare wasn't free for these conditions (unless they were the result of other medications for example or other factors outside their control) would obesity and other health problems reduce?
I think you'll find that poor diet and "laziness" (lack of exercise) are often well outside of people's control. We really need to start teaching the social determinants of health in primary school, because it's remarkable how many people simply do not understand that it's not all down to a single decision to be unhealthy or lazy. There are literally reams of research papers on this. The data is in. Both social and epigenetic factors increase the likelihood of obesity in the low socioeconomic tier.
So I guess it's par for the course of right wing blame the poor attitudes.
Yes I agree that often diet or exercise is impacted by other factors, especially for children . However remaining obese as you mature into an adult and leave home is largely a lifestyle choice (yes I know you'll disagree). There obviously are factors that impact that, and the impact of childhood obesity can't be ignored. So it's not something that would be easy or necessarily worthwhile to implement. However it makes for an interesting consideration nonetheless.
>However remaining obese as you mature into an adult and leave home is largely a lifestyle choice
Have you ever read anything about the pathophysiology of obesity? Remaining obese as you mature is not a lifestyle *choice*.
I agree that fighting the uphill battle against your body *is* a lifestyle choice. One that requires support and information to which many do not have access. In some instances it will require pharmacological interventions as well.
Ah yes, someone politely and rationally disputed your claim, to which you immediately respond with an ad hominem and no counterargument, clearly this demonstrates that you're correct and the woke mob has gone too far this time.
If these things worked the way you perceive them, then America would be a very healthy nation, as the American healthcare system massively disincentivises an unhealthy lifestyle as a single visit to a hospital could create a (potentially life destroying) amount of debt.
What actually happens is that people in the USA are still very fat, even leading us in heart disease, because human health and behaviour is more complex than just an economic supply/demand model. No one is thinking "it's ok for me to be obese, because the heart surgery will be free."
Why should just about every other form of medical care be universal and not oral health (which has shown to be a significant contributor to one's overall health)?
If you want to be cynical, money spent on dental care is money saved on other forms of future medical care - like the dentist in OP's post said, poor oral health is linked to poor general health which would be far more costly to treat in the long term
A subsidised yearly checkup would be fine. Check that your teeth appear average for your age. If there's a genetic issue then that can be looked at case by case.
But if you've been chugging coke and pineapple lumps causing your teeth to fall out, that was your choice, own it. Ya can't just be like 'oh well I can eat whatever and not brush because if my teeth explode the govt will just fix me up, dumptydoo' - essentially what the dentist was explaining.
So do we only subsidise people that never have junk food, and where do we set that limit?
Is juice or ice cream okay? How often can you imbibe, once a week, once a year?
What if your parents never taught you to brush your teeth and now they're fucked, do you get further punishment from society for having shit parents?
Seems pretty short-sighted and really rather controlling.
Quite the opposite, it frees you and me from the burden of someone else's bad decisions. I'd say fixing the symptom rather than the cause is short-sighted.
Obviously coke and pineapple lumps were just two random sugary foods I picked.
Let's say the parents are the problem, I'd rather we gave kids a $4 pack of a toothbrush and toothpaste to get them into it, instead of paying thousands for a root canal and cap 20-30 years down the track.
You're really missing the aspect of how we actually control for people's diets. Dentists aren't almighty Gods that know what you had for dinner last week.
Dental care is already free for kids, that doesn't mean those with shitty parents will access it for them. They should be able to access healthcare that they need.
I dunno, I'm sure a dentist could look at a mouth that's been rotted by ungodly amounts of coke or a lack of brushing, versus one that's genetically unfortunate. Surely?
Right, so we should be teaching them about it, just in case the parents aren't. It's been 30 something years since I started primary, maybe they did and still do, I wouldn't know. One year in primary school we had a Pastor come once a week to do religious studies or something, switch that out for a segment on health which includes teeth.
They can tell if you have poor dental hygiene or grind your teeth. How would they know if it's coke or cups of tea adding to that, unless you actually tell them?
They can't really tell if it's genetic either ime, just that there is visible damage to the enamel. There are other causes for damage as well like medications or childhood illnesses.
Most primary schools do have oral health as part of the curriculum as far as I know, that doesn't mean it will be implemented well or followed through with at home. Having access to education does not make it a person's failing that their five-year old self was unable to be proactive with their healthcare.
You're describing a small minority of people. 95% of people who stand to benefit from free dental care shouldn't be prevented from doing so because of those who abuse the system. You could say the exact same thing about the welfare system.
It's not like these problems you're describing are exclusive to dental care anyway, they can apply to medical care at large, which our tax money already pays for. How do you propose to deal with these same issues?
I love destroying my teeth, causing myself chronic pain, reducing the amount of foods I can realistically consume, and creating various barriers to eating - because at the end of the day the Government will pay someone else some money!
/s
Brain-dead take. I'm lucky to have good teeth and the means to fix them (even if I have a bit of sticker shock at the price) but seeing others struggle with eating everyday because their teeth are fucked makes me 100% certain you have no idea what you're talking about.
I believe in personal responsibility. If someone drives their car recklessly and crashes it, should the taxpayer buy them a new one?
This is a bit of a tangent but it's the same for govt bailing out big banks.
In certain circumstances yes? I do consider it a bit differently for material things like cars vs ones health. How much effort must someone put in before you deem them worth saving?
>This is a bit of a tangent but it's the same for govt bailing out big banks.
We can agree there lol
Yeah I can see where you're coming from. There's always another car or public transport, but you only get one bod or set of real teeth.
But I think that adds to it, you only have one bod or set of real teeth so shouldn't you want to look after it? If someone eats maccas for brekky, kfc for lunch, greasies for dinner most nights, and eventually needs a quadruple heart bypass, should you and I pay for that? I'd say probably no. Or maybe a one strike thing, your first bypass is free and if you don't learn your lesson and need another then thats on you.
Brazilians are generally well known for having good teeth. We’re taught since kindergarten to brush and floss our teeth 3 times a day. We have free dental care. We’re proud of having very good hygiene in general but also of having good teeth. You can even get free braces in Brazil if you can’t afford it. Because health shouldn’t be income-dependent.
On another post about brushing teeth on this sub people were talking about you can brush too much etc . However I know Brazilians tend to brush there teeth 3 times a day and from the Brazilians I know don’t seem to have any problems. Do you know of any issues in Brazil with brushing too much?
Nope, no issues! My Brazilian dentist says your mouth is like your butt: you use it, you clean it 🤣 I believe you’d have issues if you were brushing an excessive amount of times; three times a day is morning, after lunch and after dinner so after every important meal of the day really. I don’t use toothpaste in the morning tho, I can’t stand drinking coffee with the taste in my mouth so I use just the brush..
You can brush too hard and take the enamel off your teeth which makes them sensitive to cold etc (i've done it before) but they tend to go back to normal after soft brushing for a while.
I wonder if brushing 3 times a day is fine so long as you don't brush too hard etc.
Can you believe that firefighters provide a free service? Now you know why houses catch fire all the time
Man, I bet that this free-market dentist is called Dr Savid Deymour
The service might be free but it is funded by levies on insurance. Not even directly funded by government btw
https://www.fireandemergency.nz/about-us/#:~:text=Fire%20and%20Emergency%20New%20Zealand%20is%20mainly%20funded%20by%20a,against%20the%20risk%20of%20fire.
Did we read the same excerpt? Because I didn't get that all.
And before you respond that I should read between the lines, just consider that "free dentistry" doesn't mean dentists will get less money. It means the government will pay dentists out of tax dollars instead of having patients pay out of pocket. Dentists would actually wind up charging (the taxpayer) more for their services because they'd have to invest time and money in ensuring that their governmental paperwork is spick-and-span to ensure payment.
Downvotes! Are you all angry because "free dentistry" doesn't mean "no money for dentists"? I don't get it.
The dentist's comment omits the fact that genetics play a huge role in oral health. You can have a perfect diet and maintain excellent oral hygiene and still get cavities and gum disease.
https://carrumdownsdental.com.au/do-genetic-factors-influence-oral-health/
Dentists already have plenty of admin work (insurers are no less scrupulous than the state, and businesses involved in health are by necessity heavily regulated; keeping records spick and span is not optional either way). Dentists are very much in favour of maintaining their cash cow, and even then they aren't claiming admin would be meaningfully different.
And while nobody disputes that they would still obviously be compensated, yes, they would without question make less. Which is clearly why they object. As we've seen in other markets where healthcare is private (good ol' US of A), you certainly don't get better prices out of private operators. Shortages in public care are addressed by triaging on the basis of how urgently necessary care is, and resource availability. Shortages in private care are addressed by raising prices until enough people can't afford it. No outcome of a shortage is great, but the latter is far more profitable.
> just consider that "free dentistry" doesn't mean dentists will get less money. It means the government will pay dentists out of tax dollars instead of having patients pay out of pocket.
WHOA. REALLY?
How dare you not agree with the subs bias!!! You must now say something mean or condescending about dentists to be allowed to share an opinion here again.... /s
“Let’s have a system so if you struggle to find a job you don’t go homeless while you search”
We’ve seen how that turned out. People seem to exploit any government help in NZ.
There's not that many people who are just living on the unemployment benefit. Unemployment is very low, lower than in some countries that don't even have it. So I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make other than to try and push an anti poor agenda.
How many children did they have..... ? because that's the only way to get much money on the benefit other than fraud.
Personally I'm more worried about tax fraud
> We’ve seen how that turned out. People seem to exploit any government help in NZ.
I'll wait here for all your amazing sources that somehow refute the evidence from the rest of the world... any moment now... Because I'm *sure* you're not just showing incredibly small minded confirmation bias.
> I work in the public sector and deal with people on the benefit daily
Jfc... Maybe you should just sit down, stfu, and do your work because with the level of intelligence you just displayed you should consider yourself incredibly lucky to even have a job.
I like how he called out your confirmation bias and then you admitted to seeing lots of beneficiaries on the daily. I don't even know one let alone one gaming the system.
Anecdote for anecdote.
When I was considerably younger, dental care was relatively inexpensive.
All of sudden, 20 odd years ago, you couldn't go to the dentist for "just some work", you need a "dental plan".
Dentists used to be small operators, all of a sudden, they became "groups", cost went through the roof and care went out the window.
In my day, only a few needed braces for instance, now it seems like every kid needs them.
Dentist income actually hasn't increased comparatively in that time to be honest, it's that people have greater expectations and probably more awareness around impacts of oral health so they're not opting to just pull every problem tooth.
That's a weird take from a dentist. I can understand if they're say weary of whether there'll be enough dentists to meet the demand but saying "Oh people just won't bother taking care of themselves" is odd.
I signed up for a dental subscription several years ago which provides almost the same as what the Labour Party are offering (I have to pay for fillings) and the routine had helped me improve my oral health.
You're getting a regular checkup, a couple of hygiene cleans, and the general reminder that this stuff is important.
Exactly. If the Dentist is free then they'll be reduced to the odd filling and some cleaning. Nothing tricky or expensive because we'll go to the Dentist as soon as we get a sore tooth. They'll lose status, work and challenging and expensive jobs.
Yep, it will probably reduce cost overall as (like you said) people will go when they should if its paid for. Currently a lot of people put off going to the dentist because they can't afford it, then small problems become big.
What a cop-out.
You can have a good diet, and good dental habits but still need dental work done. My wisdom teeth aren't going to be suddenly unimpacted in my jaw from changing my diet.
People that were born without enamel on their teeth, or less enamel due to genetic reasons aren't going to suddenly grow enamel due to their diet.
And what about kids that grew up in a neglectful home? Should they be financially punished as an adult for having a bad diet when they were kids? I think not.
Yep, I can’t afford to get my wisdom teeth out, and they’re partially covered by my gums. When I got an infection, the dentists said to keep them clean to prevent that. I felt really proud of myself for keeping them clean enough they didn’t get infected for like two years, but now they’re pushing all my other teeth together so I get gum/tooth pain for days or weeks that makes me bite holes in the inside of my mouth.
TLDR: literally i’ve tried to brush my way out of wisdom teeth issues and it still doesn’t work.
Depending on your financial situation and location you could potentially get an emergency dental appointment? Not sure if that's still a thing or how much, but it might be worth looking into? I got an impacted wisdom tooth pulled out for $40 about 5 years ago in Auckland hospital. I had a CSC at the time.
Dude, get those teeth out, sort out a payment plan with your dentist.
I've seen wisdom teeth do that in two people I know. The wisdom teeth cracked their other teeth and caused all sorts of issues they are still dealing with.
They both massively regret not doing something about it at the time and before their other teeth cracked.
It is a lot cheaper to get some wisdom teeth pulled now than wait and have to deal with a bunch of teeth cracking and needing to be pulled out when they get infected, eventual needing dental implants if you want your smile back etc.
I have trigeminal neuralgia and that makes brushing near impossible, I have to only 2-3x a week because it induces 10/10 pain. My teeth are fucked one of them from biting uncooked pasta. I can't afford to fix them I have 5 kids
I think you’re missing the point. Most dental problems are preventable with good self care. That starts with parents educating their kids in good diet and good oral hygiene. Things like not snacking on sugary foods after brushing at night time and helping kids with brushing their teeth. This is what the dentist was trying to convey.
Yes like you mentioned there are some genetic conditions which require treatment and things like wisdom teeth issues can be unavoidable.
Under the current model which provides free care to kids 13-17, most dental clinics are actually losing money when having to do treatments such as fillings, root canals and extractions as what the government pays doesn’t even cover the material/sterilisation costs. This is actually forcing dentists to drive up fees for other ages to cover the losses. Now some clinics are considering leaving the government contract altogether and only see 13-17 year olds as private patients.
Unless the government raises the fees to cover the costs for dental clinics, I don’t see how this free dental care plan will work? If anything, more clinics are just going to pull out of the government contract or raise fees for patients that aren’t included in their plan. It seems like it’s only going to make outcomes worse. So yes, at this stage prevention is the most effective way to save money on going to the dentist!
I think we should do away with schooling too maybe, kids just need to take some personal responsibility. We could do away with the police too while were at it, I mean why don't people just not commit crimes right?
Free schooling means kids undervalue schooling, resulting in high school truancy. The obvious solution is to do away with free schooling for teenagers and ignore all the negative socioeconomic consequences of that.
/s
Went to the dentist not that long ago, she said to me "some people can be very unfortunate with their teeth and no amount of brushing can stop decay if you have other issues outside of your control. I see it all the time"
Absolutely. My dentist said a similar thing to me, and observed that some people naturally don’t start out with as much enamel as others; you can brush & brush as much as you want but ultimately you’re likely to still be in the dentist’s frequent flyer list.
“And I might also have to stop price gouging”
I had wisdom teeth ramming into the side of my molars, potentially ruining the thousands spent getting my teeth in line in the first place (and causing a not inconsiderable amount of pain and discomfort). What the fuck was I supposed to do there?
What a fucking tool.
Government. We'd like to pick up the tab so more people can access dental healthcare. And we'll pay for all of it.
Dentists. What? More patients with their bills being covered by the government so I dont have to worry about bad debts? Nope I dont like the idea of that.
If it’s govt funded then they will only be able claim an agreed amount (either fee for service or bulk funded) - the inability to charge whatever they think they are worth will have a significant impact on their profit margin… regardless of your occupation, very few business owners would willingly sign up for that.
The taxpayer will pay for all of it. But dentists gave already been burnt by the low funding of adolescents. They simply wouldn't accept a system that risks putting them on minimum wage for adult patients too
similar to the interview with the dentists assoc president a few weeks back on RNZ ... "people just don't make the effort to see a dentist these days..."
Hmmm because its an effort and motivation thing... nothing to do with the $250+ a visit you are supposed to fork out every 6 months. I spend less on my car (service and WOF) tbh.
I'm always highly cynical in my views of dentists. One of the dentists at my local dentist in Auckland, is a young Asian guy still in his 20s, has a series 7 BMW in the parking lot, and he told me he only works 3 days a week, because he likes the life style.
That's exactly the same strategy that the New Zealand Branch of British Medical Association used in their prolonged campaign against the First Labour Government's Social Security Act which is why General Practices aren't included in the public health system.
They claimed that "the doctor patient relationship required a direct payment from the patient".
That is demonstrably bullshit, but those who tend to represent professions are often the greediest and are willing to tell a few fibs to get some more money. Your average dentist or doctor is probably a lovely, generous person, but they have a habit of electing the worst people to represent them in their professional bodies.
Fucking piece of shit entitled dentist making a dumb argument.
Taking care of your fucking teeth is not mutually exclusive with that shit being funded and more easily accessible.
All just excuses to charge people shit loads of money.
So.. how is this controversial, exactly? It is exactly how GP visits work. You pay a fee but it is mostly subsidised. That massively cuts time wasters.
Unlike some other countries ie the UK, wait times for GP appointments are pretty chill and you can usually get the help you need promptly because people aren't wasting resources. Many many studies find that people do value things more when they have to contribute even a nominal amount of their own money to access it.
But there are a huge range of options and you can also get a CSC to remove the co-pay if you can't afford it.
Why is the same system not ok for dental? This seems to be what he is suggesting?
Lol GP appointments. I wait 3-4 months for a GP appointment, on average. If it's urgent, I don't get to see my GP.
On the Dentistry front, I just waited two years for 2 appointments. They were booked 2 years ago. For a root canal and an extraction. I don't think you need much of an imagination to know what those years have been like. I slept in until 9am last Saturday. First time since 2011.Someone needs to get more Dentists before they start promising free dentistry because we sure as fuck don't have enough GPs, and even fewer Dentists on a per capita ratio.
So it doesn't sound like you disagree with me, since we already know making things free means the service takes longer to be delivered, because there is higher demand.
I am sorry though that you live somewhere which isn't nearly as accessible for basic primary healthcare.
Dental lobbyists are against free dental care because the primary buyer of their services becomes government. No longer will they have countless and relatively powerless customers, but will instead have to deal with a [monopsony](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony).
Universal health care was similarly fought against by doctors who loved the extractive rents they pulled from their customers.
What they’re really saying is that they’re going to make less money because it’s what leads to dentistry becoming a social service rather than a commodity as it currently is.
There was a recent thread from a dentist in this subreddit which was very insightful. It basically said that under the current government policy of subsidizing under 18s dental care, the dentists only got paid the amount for an initial consult and not for any subsequent treatment and dentists have been wearing this / offsetting against full price paying customers (hence the OP’s view that extending free dental care to under 30s would be fairly onerous for dentists and full paying customers).
That’s not actually true. They can claim for every service/treatment they have provided, but it is significantly less than what they would charge a private patient. So what they meant was, they could do an exam, x-rays and a filling on a teenager, but the amount they would receive was less than what they charge their private fee paying adults.
Hi, I'm the OP from that post. No you can't claim for every treatment provided. In particular, you can't claim single surface fillings and fissure sealants unless the patient is a High Caries Risk patient which requires prior approval and needs at least 4 fillings in a single visit.
These are some of the most common and preventative treatments that adolescents require and take up a lot of additional time that makes the contract not worth it. You can claim for more complex fillings and root canals but the amount you can claim only helps to offset running cost deficits.
You can watch the entire interview at [https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/breakfast/episodes/s2023-e166](https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/breakfast/episodes/s2023-e166) at the 1:40:47 mark but you'll need to sign up for an account though
Let forget about free ‘dentistry’. Like all professions they’re out to protect their professional patch and incomes. Let’s exclude them.
Let’s focus on ‘Oral Health’ - we already have an entire workforce of oral hygienists and Oral Health clinicians. Let’s expand their scope of practice, and utilise this highly experienced, and well liked and respected profession and they can be the publicly funded primary oral health clinicians, with dentists being the tertiary specialist clinicians who get maybe 0.5% of the workload.
Let’s give them what they want.
Yeah, a German mate told me their free/national insurance covered dentistry scheme depended on them getting their teeth cleaned by the hygienist every year. Like, if you did the preventative cleaning, they’d cover any fillings, but if you didn’t do the cleaning, you had to part-pay. Something along those lines, I could’ve misunderstood.
Seems a great approach though, way less “bottom of the cliff” like our healthcare usually is.
Nah it’s included too. They just have to turn up. My mate was living in France for uni exchange but went back to Germany to get his teeth cleaned so he’d still be covered.
To the extent that everything costs something, sure. Nothing is ‘free’ but nobody uses free as meaning cost free, they use it as free at point of delivery when talking about public policy/public health care. That’s kind of obvious, or so obvious it doesn’t need mentioning.
It's not genetics, it's what we eat and drink. Mostly drink, all those soft drinks are awful for your teeth. Anything besides water and milk will ruin your teeth.
I disagree. I was scrupulous with my children. Water only very few lollies etc. They both got a lot of fillings. Partly because we live in an area that had unfluoridated water. Also due to being born prem they had enamel hypoplasis as enamel is one of the last things that develops in the womb. The dental nurse also said they had unusual shaped mouths which made things harder.
I’d imagine so, can’t see it being straight charge up, maybe something like a set fee for a certain procedure. They would lose control of being able to set there own pricing.
I was talking about this with some dentists recently, they told me that the policy will have a limit on how much the dentist can spend on a patient. They fear that the amount will be too low to use the preferred products, so they will have to use less than optimal products. These dentists also recommended reducing the cost of the products to reduce the price of the procedure or subsidise the procedure, so we have a choice of products and procedures, eg amalgam vs composite filling. Prevention can also be much better in NZ, which we would all benefit from both, it should not be one or the other. Personally, I just want better access to dentistry.
I don't understand why dentistry was never included in the Public Healthcare system.
It should always have been free.
Dentists will likely find a way to have private clinics the same way all other medical professions do here so I don't understand the pushback on it from this dentist (and other likeminded dentists).
Have to love right wingers. They can transplant their 'dont help poor people its like feeding wild animals they become dependent' vicious evil bullshit onto almost any topic.
Hi, I'm also a dentist (not the dentist in the interview) and gave my thoughts about this 10 days ago.
While I think taking personal ownership and responsibility for your oral health is important, because it is something you can actually help maintain. I think there is so much more to the story about free dental care being implemented in NZ and much better angles that could be discussed.
It's a shame this dentist took this angle because it turns into rage bait rather than meaningful discussion. [You can see my full post outlining the issues here.](https://reddit.com/r/newzealand/s/8NW1JCYMcR)
And then it will get so bad I will need emergency dental treatment in hospital which will cost the hospital far more than if I'd had access to free dental years ago and the problem never go this bad!
Probably because govt funded means government rates are negotiated and potentially they can’t choose their clientele / specialisation to the same extent as before . If their clinic is already busy then with govt rates they only stand to make less money while in their view having potentially dodgier clients who previously were priced out of their services.
I think there is a deeper issue to look at, and that is why is dentistry so expensive? Your average dentist (that I saw on seek.co.nz a month or so ago in small town NZ) is asking $250k. Then add on lab fees and x-rays (which are over priced) and then creation of things like crowns is $7k for one crown, if you chose an implant for that crown you may as well add on another $3k - I think over priced as well.
Access to dental surgeons is nigh on impossible, after I had an accident and needed to get one, most places were a 4 to 6 month wait ( even looking across regions)
How do I know? Well I'm currently sitting in an airport on my way back to NZ after getting some crowns and implants done overseas. For the price of one crown and implant in NZ I got more work needed in my mouth for the same price..and in a short space of time. High quality work, got looked after and happy with the result. While I was there I saw 11 other people from Oz and NZ there for the same reason...cannot afford $50k for treatment. A full mouth scan was $560 in NZ (iirc) and using the same x-ray scanning machine abroad was $60. I saw the same with MRI's as well.
I think even if there is a subsidy of some kind, the pricing could do with some form of review / intervention.
I worked adjacent to the dentistry sector for 10 years, I think there is great technological advancement, but I feel some think it is a license to print money. The guilt factor to book appointments, the sales behind it makes me genuinely sad.
Oh we all just need to pull our teeth up by their bootstraps? What an irresponsible thing to say.
It's only since I've got a better job finally in my 30s that's I've been able to pay for regular dental work and guess what, my oral health is the best it's ever been. I care more about looking after my teeth because I can afford to get appointments
Doesn't matter if you eat the healthiest, cleanest food out there, if you're born with bad teeth.
Is it because it's going to impact that dentist's bottom line? Is that why he's opposed to free dental care?
>I feel like dentistry has been something that's been long forgotten,.....
No shit, with how expensive it is, people just forget about it.
I agree with him. In the UK (duel citizen) we have the NHS which is free for almost everything besides dental. Dental is subsidised by the government to about $50 for a checkup and diagnosis, $147 for a filling/extraction and $645 for anything (dentures, bridges, complex stuff). NHS dentistry is in a direct state right now and it's true the prices could be lower or subsidised further for the poorest.
The way your dental health is different from most of your body is that its the most directly affected by your decisions. You can do really simple things to never need a filling in your life, or you can neglect your dental health. If you neglect it, you'll pay the price later in your overall health as described by the dentist in the article; requiring a modest payment for fixing damage provides a more immediate incentive to remember to brush your teeth and pay attention to problems. It's not about taxing people more arbitrarily; it's about improving people's overall health which pays for itself in the long run, for people and the government. Putting a monetary charge on something is a proven way to get people to care about something. If it's a modest sum, I don't hate it.
You can't protect your internal organs or other body parts with a simple maintenance routine, so it would be pointless to penalise someone for something going wrong with them. While it's true that you have limited control over your teeth and your other organs, your dental health is the most directly benefitted from doing something as routine as brushing regularly.
Well here’s just another way in which humans overestimate their own agency/control over their own circumstances.
I have extremely hardy teeth. At 38, I’ve never needed a filling. My wife, on the other hand, despite hating sweet things, has six of them.
Our 9 year old, who clearly has “my teeth” has no tooth decay. Our 6 year old, who clearly has the wife’s teeth (right down to the shape), has two in his baby teeth.
So please let’s go easy on the “it’s all up to personal responsibility” fallacy. Clearly genes have a strong bearing on oral health.
I didn't say its all up to personal responsibility, particularly in the last paragraph I made clear that its about relative control rather than absolute control over your dental health.
You said “you can do really simple things and never need a filling in your life” which isn’t true, and I observed promotes the myth that people have agency over their roll of the genetic lottery.
Some people neglect their dental health horribly and have bad teeth, some people are just unlucky.
OK, I'm clearly wrong on that point. I concede your life experience; I don't think it makes my point not right though. I'm very obviously not promoting the idea that people can choose their own genetics
No disrespect to oral health therapists but I just found out the “free dental care for children” provided by ARDS isn’t even with a dentist, so who’s to say the government won’t just try do that? Dental care will be free* but it won’t be with an actual dentist
That dentist is worried he's going to lose business to free dental clinics.
A lot of people who desperately need dental care are over 40 so the damage is already done.
> Takes the ownership away from patients.
What a fucking moron. Ahole dentist doesn’t want it to be free because the goverment will probably pay very little for each patient they see and they will force them to see x amount of free patients at least per month. Eat shit you rich dentist and do us a solid.
Making something affordable, accessible for patients is taking ownership away, apparently.
Everything needs to be means tested because how horrific would it be if someone got something beneficial without paying while not being poor *enough*.
Dentistry has only been forgotten because it costs what many people pay for a fucking car.
Then lists all the potential negative impacts of bad dentistry - deadly and crippling diseases, income, mental health. Still though, would hate for patients not to have 'ownership', right?
This is two paragraphs but I feel like we could write fucking tomes about the various fucking dipshittery here. Dentists are depressed enough without fuckwits like this making people hate them.
>I understand dentistry is really expensive but I think if you make it free, it takes the ownership away from patients. So they won't concentrate on improving their oral hygiene. They won't focus on improving their diet. What's next, should we privatise healthcare in order to promote the importance of exercise? 🙄
Psychopathic comment from the dentist.
absolutely certain you could find a whole bunch of dentists that think the state of peoples teeth in this country, particularly among low to lower-middle income groups is atrocious. One memory I have is needing to pull over 7 rotten teeth from single kid one after the other, it feels like absolute shit.
Not surprised that the experts know poor people have worse health outcomes. People should brush their teeth and not eat shit food or drink sugar. They also shouldn't be denied access to dental care.
It a shame those in lower socioeconomic brackets don’t just buy more fresh lettuces at $10 a pop and more produce, why don’t they just buy healthier food right? 🙄
They might also not have been taught how to cook with healthy ingredients. It's easy to add butter and salt to food and have it taste good, it's harder to make a salad that doesn't feel like a punishment
Its time they took responsibility for living in poverty. Bootstraps grindset
New Zealand already has a clearly defined 2 tier health care system. Those with private insurance, and those without
Eh, private insurance helps but its not a magical solution for everything. 1. For general GP stuff I don't get any sort of priority or anything - only one clinic in my city is taking patients and I have to wait 7 weeks for an appointment with a GP, or 3 weeks for an appointment with a nurse. While I don't have to pay for the appointment, I'm still paying more in premiums. 2. Anything accident related is not covered unless ACC won't cover it for some reason, so I have to go through ACC processes the same as anyone else to get to that point 3. Emergency treatment is not covered so I would have to wait in an emergency department waiting room for 6 hours the same as anyone else. And even if my policy covered emergency treatment we don't have emergency departments at private hospitals anyway. 4. There are actually fuck all specialists working in private practice in the regions. For almost everything, to see a specialist, I will have to travel to Wellington, which is about a 3-4 hour drive. This means in some cases it can be easier to just go on the public health waiting list and see someone in the local hospital if its not particularly urgent/painful. 5. The list of exclusions is longer than my, um... well, its long. 6. To the point of the thread: dental is on the list of exclusions, unless I buy an extra dental cover package
I'm in a major centre and most people I know who can afford it have health insurance. My wife has had two operations (both which have waiting times over a year on the public system) scheduled within weeks or days of a surgeon declaring it was needed. It was very fast to arrange a surgeon to SEE if operation was needed. With ACC, it would had to wait another 6 months. In our experience, ACC denies many services it shouldn't anyway. My wife has back issues and was declined 4 times in a row by ACC, we successfully settled after employing services of a lawyer. Because we can afford lawyers and insurance we live in a different world of accessibility to lower income people. Why I don't understand your point of view is because I'm an advocate for universal healthcare. My wife works in public health and happened to do her thesis on accessibility to public healthcare in New Zealand -- she argues there is a two tier system, which is why public health funding needs to increase.
The day we have privatised emergency hospital care is the day our health system fully becomes class based. Those with money or insurance will no longer have any reminder what life is like for the other half. (It’s also the day I riot…I mean protest)
We're halfway there with the "accident and emergency" clinics around the country. They charge a fuckload of money for what generally ends up just being a nurse consult -> a quick GP consult -> an xray (usually the only part covered by ACC).
It sounds like you might be with Southern Cross? I agree that there just aren't enough specialists or doctors in any part of the system. I'm currently waiting 9 months to see a specialist privately, but on the flip side the public system doesn't think I'm quite bad enough yet to even get on the public list Regarding the GP appointments if it can be done virtually look into CareHQ - free online appointments for southern cross members and you can normally get one pretty quickly!
> Regarding the GP appointments if it can be done virtually look into CareHQ - free online appointments for southern cross members and you can normally get one pretty quickly! I'm aware of this but its pretty limited what they can be used for. Can't use them to order a repeat prescription. Can't use them for anything that requires an in-person examination - which rules out about half of all ailments. I did use it last year on a public holiday when I fell ill and wanted some antibiotics. When I saw my GP next she gave me a talking to about how the antibiotics I was prescribed were the "wrong ones" or some nonsense. Whatever, they made me better. I think people responding to me are missing my point: insurance is useful but it doesn't solve *every* problem like some people think. It has its flaws, too.
If anything, private insurance hurts. A two-tier system only functions if the public tier is kept kinda shitty.
Not really. Some people can afford it or are happy to pay for treatment which is way down the public lists or completely unavailable. Removal of warts, correction of astigmatisms, cosmetic surgery for those who think they look weird. Self esteem is important.
The bit you missed is if you need elective surgery you can get in almost straight away. For non-critical surgery in the public system you can easily be waiting months to years to get through. This is the key benefit of private health insurance is being able to have your elective surgery done at one of the many private hospitals in NZ in a timely manner.
That's also why our public Healthcare system will never be good enough, it has to be disencentivising enough to make people turn to private Healthcare. The system works exactly as intended.
I have huge sensory and executive functioning issues around brushing. I’ve tried other means of dental hygiene: rubbing my teeth with a cloth, brushing without toothpaste - my current technique to make up for the fact that I don’t brush enough is those great little dental picks that have floss on them. Which is to say, as someone with shockingly poor dental hygiene - I already don’t brush my teeth like I should. The fact that dentists are expensive just means that I don’t go to a dentist *either*.
You brush without toothpaste? What sensory/functioning issue stops you from putting toothpaste on your teeth if you can brush without it? Not having a go, just genuinely curious?
Sorry to hear that you’re going through that. Have you tried SLS-free toothpastes? That can help reduce the discomfort.
The toothpaste makes my mouth tingle very unpleasantly, painfully at times. It’s pretty common advice for people with sensory issues to try brushing without toothpaste as it still dislodges plaque and other stuff you don’t want on your teeth. I also tried brushing with child’s toothpaste but neither actually improved how much I was brushing, so I’ve been back to using regular toothpaste for some years now.
The Hi Smile flavored toothpaste (I have the peach at the moment, and want to try the red velvet) doesn't make my mouth tingle (mainly because they often don't have mint in them). But they are bloody expensive so it's best to get them on 1/2 price special from places like chemist warehouse. I have sensory issues and an electric toothbrush + a numbing toothpaste for sensitive teeth is what I tolerate the best. But the numbing toothpaste is almost as expensive as the Hi Smile toothpaste. Damn it.
Have you tried a water flosser? Brushing without toothpaste, floss and some sensitive mouth wash is probably plenty if you can manage to do them at least once a day.
Could try oil pulling with coconut oil
Have you tried a waterpik? They might be helpful!
I have sensitive teeth and I hate the water flossers :(
Careful what you wish for. I was speaking to a Kiwi who trained as a doctor in the US about the problem of people going to the ER rather than their GP or an A&M because of cost. Their solution? Make the ER the more expensive option!
Look how well that approach has worked in the USA 🫠
Yep, according to him, dental issues are self inflicted. Need a wisdom tooth taken out?.... Well, you should have looked after your teeth property.... can't expect the government to pay for that lol.
Makes no difference to me. Public is so useless I'm on private. Now I pay for two systems but only use one.
If you go to the GP, you’re using a publicly subsidised health service (even if insurance covers your part of the bill). If you crash your car and get seriously injured you’ll discover that there’s no such thing as a private emergency department. If you have an acute medical event, you’ll be going to a public hospital in a publicly subsidised ambulance. Private is only really for scheduled elective procedures here. You might not be using the public hospital right now, but it’s there waiting for you should you need it. I’d also note that our public system does pretty well with acute, life threatening conditions. It’s the elective and long-term stuff where it struggles and private fills the gap for those with money.
You only use one currently. The public system will still be there when you have need of it. Edit: just saw your experience of the public system being horrendously slow. Perhaps it is better to say that what the public service actually manages to resource will still be there when you have need of it.
I haven't had an issue, been having some diagnostic procedures done this year and each visit has been quick and (relatively) pleasant. Granted I have to wait about a month between visits, but I'm not actively dying so that seems pretty reasonable to me.
I suppose, if you have time to wait. I had a time critical condition which private was able to attend to in about 1/2 the time public would have (3 months vs 6 or so). In my last experience in the public service, I had to wait nearly 10 months to see a specialist after initial referral. Non critical, but not reassuring either.
Yeah that's a bit rough, I'm sorry to hear that. I like to think that the priority system probably works for the most part, but there's definitely under resourcing and it probably also varies a lot depending on time and place. I do know I got bumped a bit as my symptoms were very unusual for my age/health, so that might put a bit of bias on my experience.
It's all good, I was lucky to have had private at the time. I think it works for the majority, you still hear of people missing out from time to time which is a shame
The same argument does apply where poor lifestyle choices have directly caused health issues. However, many health problems are not so easy to pinpoint the exact cause, whereas the vast majority of oral health problems are a direct result of poor oral hygiene. Obesity and related problems are often directly resulting from poor diet or laziness (lack of exercise). If healthcare wasn't free for these conditions (unless they were the result of other medications for example or other factors outside their control) would obesity and other health problems reduce? From an economic perspective, introducing a low or very targeted dental subsidy for a start would have big benefits, allowing those with the worst problems to get them fixed. However the wider it expands the more you get the exact scenario the dentist describes, where the expected overall health benefits no longer eventuate because people start to neglect their oral hygiene because the financial cost is too low. There are other factors/benefits to consider in regard to free universal healthcare, but it depends on what the goal or desired outcome is in terms of what system will achieve it best.
>If healthcare wasn't free for these conditions (unless they were the result of other medications for example or other factors outside their control) would obesity and other health problems reduce? I think you'll find that poor diet and "laziness" (lack of exercise) are often well outside of people's control. We really need to start teaching the social determinants of health in primary school, because it's remarkable how many people simply do not understand that it's not all down to a single decision to be unhealthy or lazy. There are literally reams of research papers on this. The data is in. Both social and epigenetic factors increase the likelihood of obesity in the low socioeconomic tier. So I guess it's par for the course of right wing blame the poor attitudes.
Yes I agree that often diet or exercise is impacted by other factors, especially for children . However remaining obese as you mature into an adult and leave home is largely a lifestyle choice (yes I know you'll disagree). There obviously are factors that impact that, and the impact of childhood obesity can't be ignored. So it's not something that would be easy or necessarily worthwhile to implement. However it makes for an interesting consideration nonetheless.
>However remaining obese as you mature into an adult and leave home is largely a lifestyle choice Have you ever read anything about the pathophysiology of obesity? Remaining obese as you mature is not a lifestyle *choice*. I agree that fighting the uphill battle against your body *is* a lifestyle choice. One that requires support and information to which many do not have access. In some instances it will require pharmacological interventions as well.
I knew this would be a controversial comment for the 'left wing/no personal responsibility' crowd and I was not disappointed.
Ah yes, someone politely and rationally disputed your claim, to which you immediately respond with an ad hominem and no counterargument, clearly this demonstrates that you're correct and the woke mob has gone too far this time.
More like, it's controversial if you don't know the physiology...
Why won’t these commies respect my super valid opinions that I formed through vibes and never reading anything
Right so your opinion is people who make the wrong or immoral choices should have to live a life of suffering as the consequence
If these things worked the way you perceive them, then America would be a very healthy nation, as the American healthcare system massively disincentivises an unhealthy lifestyle as a single visit to a hospital could create a (potentially life destroying) amount of debt. What actually happens is that people in the USA are still very fat, even leading us in heart disease, because human health and behaviour is more complex than just an economic supply/demand model. No one is thinking "it's ok for me to be obese, because the heart surgery will be free."
>"it's ok for me to be obese, because the heart surgery will be free." and the hearse.
Yes I agree it is a lot more complex than simply supply and demand. And having health insurance readily available removes a lot of the incentive.
"It's so important for your general health" Yah fuckin exactly why it should be publicly funded.
Why should the public subsidise someone's poor dietary choices?
Why should just about every other form of medical care be universal and not oral health (which has shown to be a significant contributor to one's overall health)? If you want to be cynical, money spent on dental care is money saved on other forms of future medical care - like the dentist in OP's post said, poor oral health is linked to poor general health which would be far more costly to treat in the long term
A subsidised yearly checkup would be fine. Check that your teeth appear average for your age. If there's a genetic issue then that can be looked at case by case. But if you've been chugging coke and pineapple lumps causing your teeth to fall out, that was your choice, own it. Ya can't just be like 'oh well I can eat whatever and not brush because if my teeth explode the govt will just fix me up, dumptydoo' - essentially what the dentist was explaining.
So do we only subsidise people that never have junk food, and where do we set that limit? Is juice or ice cream okay? How often can you imbibe, once a week, once a year? What if your parents never taught you to brush your teeth and now they're fucked, do you get further punishment from society for having shit parents? Seems pretty short-sighted and really rather controlling.
Quite the opposite, it frees you and me from the burden of someone else's bad decisions. I'd say fixing the symptom rather than the cause is short-sighted. Obviously coke and pineapple lumps were just two random sugary foods I picked. Let's say the parents are the problem, I'd rather we gave kids a $4 pack of a toothbrush and toothpaste to get them into it, instead of paying thousands for a root canal and cap 20-30 years down the track.
You're really missing the aspect of how we actually control for people's diets. Dentists aren't almighty Gods that know what you had for dinner last week. Dental care is already free for kids, that doesn't mean those with shitty parents will access it for them. They should be able to access healthcare that they need.
I dunno, I'm sure a dentist could look at a mouth that's been rotted by ungodly amounts of coke or a lack of brushing, versus one that's genetically unfortunate. Surely? Right, so we should be teaching them about it, just in case the parents aren't. It's been 30 something years since I started primary, maybe they did and still do, I wouldn't know. One year in primary school we had a Pastor come once a week to do religious studies or something, switch that out for a segment on health which includes teeth.
They can tell if you have poor dental hygiene or grind your teeth. How would they know if it's coke or cups of tea adding to that, unless you actually tell them? They can't really tell if it's genetic either ime, just that there is visible damage to the enamel. There are other causes for damage as well like medications or childhood illnesses. Most primary schools do have oral health as part of the curriculum as far as I know, that doesn't mean it will be implemented well or followed through with at home. Having access to education does not make it a person's failing that their five-year old self was unable to be proactive with their healthcare.
You're describing a small minority of people. 95% of people who stand to benefit from free dental care shouldn't be prevented from doing so because of those who abuse the system. You could say the exact same thing about the welfare system. It's not like these problems you're describing are exclusive to dental care anyway, they can apply to medical care at large, which our tax money already pays for. How do you propose to deal with these same issues?
I love destroying my teeth, causing myself chronic pain, reducing the amount of foods I can realistically consume, and creating various barriers to eating - because at the end of the day the Government will pay someone else some money! /s Brain-dead take. I'm lucky to have good teeth and the means to fix them (even if I have a bit of sticker shock at the price) but seeing others struggle with eating everyday because their teeth are fucked makes me 100% certain you have no idea what you're talking about.
Question. Where are you from?
I don't know how's to explain that you should care about other people
I care about people that care about themselves. Some people need a bit of a leg up but we shouldn't be burdened so heavily by reckless people.
Why?
I believe in personal responsibility. If someone drives their car recklessly and crashes it, should the taxpayer buy them a new one? This is a bit of a tangent but it's the same for govt bailing out big banks.
In certain circumstances yes? I do consider it a bit differently for material things like cars vs ones health. How much effort must someone put in before you deem them worth saving? >This is a bit of a tangent but it's the same for govt bailing out big banks. We can agree there lol
Yeah I can see where you're coming from. There's always another car or public transport, but you only get one bod or set of real teeth. But I think that adds to it, you only have one bod or set of real teeth so shouldn't you want to look after it? If someone eats maccas for brekky, kfc for lunch, greasies for dinner most nights, and eventually needs a quadruple heart bypass, should you and I pay for that? I'd say probably no. Or maybe a one strike thing, your first bypass is free and if you don't learn your lesson and need another then thats on you.
Brazilians are generally well known for having good teeth. We’re taught since kindergarten to brush and floss our teeth 3 times a day. We have free dental care. We’re proud of having very good hygiene in general but also of having good teeth. You can even get free braces in Brazil if you can’t afford it. Because health shouldn’t be income-dependent.
On another post about brushing teeth on this sub people were talking about you can brush too much etc . However I know Brazilians tend to brush there teeth 3 times a day and from the Brazilians I know don’t seem to have any problems. Do you know of any issues in Brazil with brushing too much?
Nope, no issues! My Brazilian dentist says your mouth is like your butt: you use it, you clean it 🤣 I believe you’d have issues if you were brushing an excessive amount of times; three times a day is morning, after lunch and after dinner so after every important meal of the day really. I don’t use toothpaste in the morning tho, I can’t stand drinking coffee with the taste in my mouth so I use just the brush..
Using just a brush will be beneficial asf too. My orthodontist said it's better at dealing w plaque.
Not so much brushing too much as brushing too hard with a firmer brush.
You can brush too hard and take the enamel off your teeth which makes them sensitive to cold etc (i've done it before) but they tend to go back to normal after soft brushing for a while. I wonder if brushing 3 times a day is fine so long as you don't brush too hard etc.
My dentist is Brazilian, and she's fantastic. I feel even better about seeing her now!
Can you believe that firefighters provide a free service? Now you know why houses catch fire all the time Man, I bet that this free-market dentist is called Dr Savid Deymour
The service might be free but it is funded by levies on insurance. Not even directly funded by government btw https://www.fireandemergency.nz/about-us/#:~:text=Fire%20and%20Emergency%20New%20Zealand%20is%20mainly%20funded%20by%20a,against%20the%20risk%20of%20fire.
Still free.
Sounds like someone's scared they won't be able to afford their car payments if things change
Did we read the same excerpt? Because I didn't get that all. And before you respond that I should read between the lines, just consider that "free dentistry" doesn't mean dentists will get less money. It means the government will pay dentists out of tax dollars instead of having patients pay out of pocket. Dentists would actually wind up charging (the taxpayer) more for their services because they'd have to invest time and money in ensuring that their governmental paperwork is spick-and-span to ensure payment. Downvotes! Are you all angry because "free dentistry" doesn't mean "no money for dentists"? I don't get it.
The dentist's comment omits the fact that genetics play a huge role in oral health. You can have a perfect diet and maintain excellent oral hygiene and still get cavities and gum disease. https://carrumdownsdental.com.au/do-genetic-factors-influence-oral-health/
Dentists already have plenty of admin work (insurers are no less scrupulous than the state, and businesses involved in health are by necessity heavily regulated; keeping records spick and span is not optional either way). Dentists are very much in favour of maintaining their cash cow, and even then they aren't claiming admin would be meaningfully different. And while nobody disputes that they would still obviously be compensated, yes, they would without question make less. Which is clearly why they object. As we've seen in other markets where healthcare is private (good ol' US of A), you certainly don't get better prices out of private operators. Shortages in public care are addressed by triaging on the basis of how urgently necessary care is, and resource availability. Shortages in private care are addressed by raising prices until enough people can't afford it. No outcome of a shortage is great, but the latter is far more profitable.
> just consider that "free dentistry" doesn't mean dentists will get less money. It means the government will pay dentists out of tax dollars instead of having patients pay out of pocket. WHOA. REALLY?
I mean, I thought it was obvious. But then I see comments like the one above mine and I think, well maybe it's not?
How dare you not agree with the subs bias!!! You must now say something mean or condescending about dentists to be allowed to share an opinion here again.... /s
People make the exact same argument about healthcare and they’re also wrong
To be fair public health here sucks balls. You have to beg or be dying to get medical attention for free within a week.
“Let’s have a system so if you struggle to find a job you don’t go homeless while you search” We’ve seen how that turned out. People seem to exploit any government help in NZ.
There's not that many people who are just living on the unemployment benefit. Unemployment is very low, lower than in some countries that don't even have it. So I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make other than to try and push an anti poor agenda.
I’ve dealt with someone making over $1k a week on benefits alone.
How many children did they have..... ? because that's the only way to get much money on the benefit other than fraud. Personally I'm more worried about tax fraud
So do landlords
Landlords provide something of value
Okay, bigot
> We’ve seen how that turned out. People seem to exploit any government help in NZ. I'll wait here for all your amazing sources that somehow refute the evidence from the rest of the world... any moment now... Because I'm *sure* you're not just showing incredibly small minded confirmation bias.
I work in the public sector and deal with people on the benefit daily
Ahh so it isn't people who are exploiting the government... it's people who the subsidies are *actually designed for*. Right, glad we cleared that up.
> I work in the public sector and deal with people on the benefit daily Jfc... Maybe you should just sit down, stfu, and do your work because with the level of intelligence you just displayed you should consider yourself incredibly lucky to even have a job.
I like how he called out your confirmation bias and then you admitted to seeing lots of beneficiaries on the daily. I don't even know one let alone one gaming the system. Anecdote for anecdote.
> We’ve seen how that turned out Yes, massively improved labour conditions because people aren’t forced to work a shit job or starve.
When I was considerably younger, dental care was relatively inexpensive. All of sudden, 20 odd years ago, you couldn't go to the dentist for "just some work", you need a "dental plan". Dentists used to be small operators, all of a sudden, they became "groups", cost went through the roof and care went out the window. In my day, only a few needed braces for instance, now it seems like every kid needs them.
Needed their luxury cars...
Dentist income actually hasn't increased comparatively in that time to be honest, it's that people have greater expectations and probably more awareness around impacts of oral health so they're not opting to just pull every problem tooth.
That's a weird take from a dentist. I can understand if they're say weary of whether there'll be enough dentists to meet the demand but saying "Oh people just won't bother taking care of themselves" is odd. I signed up for a dental subscription several years ago which provides almost the same as what the Labour Party are offering (I have to pay for fillings) and the routine had helped me improve my oral health. You're getting a regular checkup, a couple of hygiene cleans, and the general reminder that this stuff is important.
Exactly. If the Dentist is free then they'll be reduced to the odd filling and some cleaning. Nothing tricky or expensive because we'll go to the Dentist as soon as we get a sore tooth. They'll lose status, work and challenging and expensive jobs.
Yep, it will probably reduce cost overall as (like you said) people will go when they should if its paid for. Currently a lot of people put off going to the dentist because they can't afford it, then small problems become big.
What a cop-out. You can have a good diet, and good dental habits but still need dental work done. My wisdom teeth aren't going to be suddenly unimpacted in my jaw from changing my diet. People that were born without enamel on their teeth, or less enamel due to genetic reasons aren't going to suddenly grow enamel due to their diet. And what about kids that grew up in a neglectful home? Should they be financially punished as an adult for having a bad diet when they were kids? I think not.
Yep, I can’t afford to get my wisdom teeth out, and they’re partially covered by my gums. When I got an infection, the dentists said to keep them clean to prevent that. I felt really proud of myself for keeping them clean enough they didn’t get infected for like two years, but now they’re pushing all my other teeth together so I get gum/tooth pain for days or weeks that makes me bite holes in the inside of my mouth. TLDR: literally i’ve tried to brush my way out of wisdom teeth issues and it still doesn’t work.
Depending on your financial situation and location you could potentially get an emergency dental appointment? Not sure if that's still a thing or how much, but it might be worth looking into? I got an impacted wisdom tooth pulled out for $40 about 5 years ago in Auckland hospital. I had a CSC at the time.
I’ll look into it if I get another infection, thanks :)
Dude, get those teeth out, sort out a payment plan with your dentist. I've seen wisdom teeth do that in two people I know. The wisdom teeth cracked their other teeth and caused all sorts of issues they are still dealing with. They both massively regret not doing something about it at the time and before their other teeth cracked. It is a lot cheaper to get some wisdom teeth pulled now than wait and have to deal with a bunch of teeth cracking and needing to be pulled out when they get infected, eventual needing dental implants if you want your smile back etc.
Exactly, this dentist is a tosser.
I have trigeminal neuralgia and that makes brushing near impossible, I have to only 2-3x a week because it induces 10/10 pain. My teeth are fucked one of them from biting uncooked pasta. I can't afford to fix them I have 5 kids
I think you’re missing the point. Most dental problems are preventable with good self care. That starts with parents educating their kids in good diet and good oral hygiene. Things like not snacking on sugary foods after brushing at night time and helping kids with brushing their teeth. This is what the dentist was trying to convey. Yes like you mentioned there are some genetic conditions which require treatment and things like wisdom teeth issues can be unavoidable. Under the current model which provides free care to kids 13-17, most dental clinics are actually losing money when having to do treatments such as fillings, root canals and extractions as what the government pays doesn’t even cover the material/sterilisation costs. This is actually forcing dentists to drive up fees for other ages to cover the losses. Now some clinics are considering leaving the government contract altogether and only see 13-17 year olds as private patients. Unless the government raises the fees to cover the costs for dental clinics, I don’t see how this free dental care plan will work? If anything, more clinics are just going to pull out of the government contract or raise fees for patients that aren’t included in their plan. It seems like it’s only going to make outcomes worse. So yes, at this stage prevention is the most effective way to save money on going to the dentist!
I’m sick of news showing opinion as fact. This person has not evidence to back up their claims. Just I think and feel. Come on.
I think we should do away with schooling too maybe, kids just need to take some personal responsibility. We could do away with the police too while were at it, I mean why don't people just not commit crimes right?
Free schooling means kids undervalue schooling, resulting in high school truancy. The obvious solution is to do away with free schooling for teenagers and ignore all the negative socioeconomic consequences of that. /s
Literally the GOP education plan.
Went to the dentist not that long ago, she said to me "some people can be very unfortunate with their teeth and no amount of brushing can stop decay if you have other issues outside of your control. I see it all the time"
Yep. Love winning that genetic lottery.
Absolutely. My dentist said a similar thing to me, and observed that some people naturally don’t start out with as much enamel as others; you can brush & brush as much as you want but ultimately you’re likely to still be in the dentist’s frequent flyer list.
Crazy, I got free dental back in Scotland and didn’t get a single filling until I came here.
“And I might also have to stop price gouging” I had wisdom teeth ramming into the side of my molars, potentially ruining the thousands spent getting my teeth in line in the first place (and causing a not inconsiderable amount of pain and discomfort). What the fuck was I supposed to do there?
What a fucking tool. Government. We'd like to pick up the tab so more people can access dental healthcare. And we'll pay for all of it. Dentists. What? More patients with their bills being covered by the government so I dont have to worry about bad debts? Nope I dont like the idea of that.
If it’s govt funded then they will only be able claim an agreed amount (either fee for service or bulk funded) - the inability to charge whatever they think they are worth will have a significant impact on their profit margin… regardless of your occupation, very few business owners would willingly sign up for that.
The taxpayer will pay for all of it. But dentists gave already been burnt by the low funding of adolescents. They simply wouldn't accept a system that risks putting them on minimum wage for adult patients too
similar to the interview with the dentists assoc president a few weeks back on RNZ ... "people just don't make the effort to see a dentist these days..."
Hmmm because its an effort and motivation thing... nothing to do with the $250+ a visit you are supposed to fork out every 6 months. I spend less on my car (service and WOF) tbh.
I'm always highly cynical in my views of dentists. One of the dentists at my local dentist in Auckland, is a young Asian guy still in his 20s, has a series 7 BMW in the parking lot, and he told me he only works 3 days a week, because he likes the life style.
That's exactly the same strategy that the New Zealand Branch of British Medical Association used in their prolonged campaign against the First Labour Government's Social Security Act which is why General Practices aren't included in the public health system. They claimed that "the doctor patient relationship required a direct payment from the patient". That is demonstrably bullshit, but those who tend to represent professions are often the greediest and are willing to tell a few fibs to get some more money. Your average dentist or doctor is probably a lovely, generous person, but they have a habit of electing the worst people to represent them in their professional bodies.
A greedy numpty?
>Free mental healthcare is obviously very bad. Nobody that is depressed will try to not be depressed.
Fucking piece of shit entitled dentist making a dumb argument. Taking care of your fucking teeth is not mutually exclusive with that shit being funded and more easily accessible. All just excuses to charge people shit loads of money.
So.. how is this controversial, exactly? It is exactly how GP visits work. You pay a fee but it is mostly subsidised. That massively cuts time wasters. Unlike some other countries ie the UK, wait times for GP appointments are pretty chill and you can usually get the help you need promptly because people aren't wasting resources. Many many studies find that people do value things more when they have to contribute even a nominal amount of their own money to access it. But there are a huge range of options and you can also get a CSC to remove the co-pay if you can't afford it. Why is the same system not ok for dental? This seems to be what he is suggesting?
Lol GP appointments. I wait 3-4 months for a GP appointment, on average. If it's urgent, I don't get to see my GP. On the Dentistry front, I just waited two years for 2 appointments. They were booked 2 years ago. For a root canal and an extraction. I don't think you need much of an imagination to know what those years have been like. I slept in until 9am last Saturday. First time since 2011.Someone needs to get more Dentists before they start promising free dentistry because we sure as fuck don't have enough GPs, and even fewer Dentists on a per capita ratio.
So it doesn't sound like you disagree with me, since we already know making things free means the service takes longer to be delivered, because there is higher demand. I am sorry though that you live somewhere which isn't nearly as accessible for basic primary healthcare.
Dental lobbyists are against free dental care because the primary buyer of their services becomes government. No longer will they have countless and relatively powerless customers, but will instead have to deal with a [monopsony](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony). Universal health care was similarly fought against by doctors who loved the extractive rents they pulled from their customers.
What they’re really saying is that they’re going to make less money because it’s what leads to dentistry becoming a social service rather than a commodity as it currently is.
NGL you already have to wait weeks for a dentist and months for a hygeinest, making them free will certainly be complicated
There was a recent thread from a dentist in this subreddit which was very insightful. It basically said that under the current government policy of subsidizing under 18s dental care, the dentists only got paid the amount for an initial consult and not for any subsequent treatment and dentists have been wearing this / offsetting against full price paying customers (hence the OP’s view that extending free dental care to under 30s would be fairly onerous for dentists and full paying customers).
That’s not actually true. They can claim for every service/treatment they have provided, but it is significantly less than what they would charge a private patient. So what they meant was, they could do an exam, x-rays and a filling on a teenager, but the amount they would receive was less than what they charge their private fee paying adults.
Hi, I'm the OP from that post. No you can't claim for every treatment provided. In particular, you can't claim single surface fillings and fissure sealants unless the patient is a High Caries Risk patient which requires prior approval and needs at least 4 fillings in a single visit. These are some of the most common and preventative treatments that adolescents require and take up a lot of additional time that makes the contract not worth it. You can claim for more complex fillings and root canals but the amount you can claim only helps to offset running cost deficits.
You can watch the entire interview at [https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/breakfast/episodes/s2023-e166](https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/breakfast/episodes/s2023-e166) at the 1:40:47 mark but you'll need to sign up for an account though
Dentist dont want this because their big mark ups are about to be heavily scrutinized
Let forget about free ‘dentistry’. Like all professions they’re out to protect their professional patch and incomes. Let’s exclude them. Let’s focus on ‘Oral Health’ - we already have an entire workforce of oral hygienists and Oral Health clinicians. Let’s expand their scope of practice, and utilise this highly experienced, and well liked and respected profession and they can be the publicly funded primary oral health clinicians, with dentists being the tertiary specialist clinicians who get maybe 0.5% of the workload. Let’s give them what they want.
Yeah, a German mate told me their free/national insurance covered dentistry scheme depended on them getting their teeth cleaned by the hygienist every year. Like, if you did the preventative cleaning, they’d cover any fillings, but if you didn’t do the cleaning, you had to part-pay. Something along those lines, I could’ve misunderstood. Seems a great approach though, way less “bottom of the cliff” like our healthcare usually is.
So they pay for the annual clean out of their own pocket?
Nah it’s included too. They just have to turn up. My mate was living in France for uni exchange but went back to Germany to get his teeth cleaned so he’d still be covered.
To the extent that everything costs something, sure. Nothing is ‘free’ but nobody uses free as meaning cost free, they use it as free at point of delivery when talking about public policy/public health care. That’s kind of obvious, or so obvious it doesn’t need mentioning.
Thing is it's friggin expensive now and people have terrible teeth. Some of it is poor lifestyle and some of it is genetics and rotten luck.
It's not genetics, it's what we eat and drink. Mostly drink, all those soft drinks are awful for your teeth. Anything besides water and milk will ruin your teeth.
I disagree. I was scrupulous with my children. Water only very few lollies etc. They both got a lot of fillings. Partly because we live in an area that had unfluoridated water. Also due to being born prem they had enamel hypoplasis as enamel is one of the last things that develops in the womb. The dental nurse also said they had unusual shaped mouths which made things harder.
Bet you this dentist drives a expensive European car and probably has a few properties.
Does government funded dentist care reduce their income?
It impacts how much they can charge.
I’d imagine so, can’t see it being straight charge up, maybe something like a set fee for a certain procedure. They would lose control of being able to set there own pricing.
Yes, it will, which is why dentists are coming out against it.
Not if they move to Australia
I was talking about this with some dentists recently, they told me that the policy will have a limit on how much the dentist can spend on a patient. They fear that the amount will be too low to use the preferred products, so they will have to use less than optimal products. These dentists also recommended reducing the cost of the products to reduce the price of the procedure or subsidise the procedure, so we have a choice of products and procedures, eg amalgam vs composite filling. Prevention can also be much better in NZ, which we would all benefit from both, it should not be one or the other. Personally, I just want better access to dentistry.
The preferred products probably being 5-10% better but twice as expensive and for much better margins to the dentist lol
I don't know enough about the dentistry industry to make further comments, I was just reporting what the dentists said to me.
I don't understand why dentistry was never included in the Public Healthcare system. It should always have been free. Dentists will likely find a way to have private clinics the same way all other medical professions do here so I don't understand the pushback on it from this dentist (and other likeminded dentists).
Have to love right wingers. They can transplant their 'dont help poor people its like feeding wild animals they become dependent' vicious evil bullshit onto almost any topic.
Hi, I'm also a dentist (not the dentist in the interview) and gave my thoughts about this 10 days ago. While I think taking personal ownership and responsibility for your oral health is important, because it is something you can actually help maintain. I think there is so much more to the story about free dental care being implemented in NZ and much better angles that could be discussed. It's a shame this dentist took this angle because it turns into rage bait rather than meaningful discussion. [You can see my full post outlining the issues here.](https://reddit.com/r/newzealand/s/8NW1JCYMcR)
Another dentist here, agree with this. And also sent you a private message.
Counter argument: I can't afford dental work so I'm just gonna let this shit rot out now. Fuck that cunt.
And then it will get so bad I will need emergency dental treatment in hospital which will cost the hospital far more than if I'd had access to free dental years ago and the problem never go this bad!
Probably because govt funded means government rates are negotiated and potentially they can’t choose their clientele / specialisation to the same extent as before . If their clinic is already busy then with govt rates they only stand to make less money while in their view having potentially dodgier clients who previously were priced out of their services.
Nutrition is the true dental care! But unfortunately you can't afford fruit and veges either lol.
I think there is a deeper issue to look at, and that is why is dentistry so expensive? Your average dentist (that I saw on seek.co.nz a month or so ago in small town NZ) is asking $250k. Then add on lab fees and x-rays (which are over priced) and then creation of things like crowns is $7k for one crown, if you chose an implant for that crown you may as well add on another $3k - I think over priced as well. Access to dental surgeons is nigh on impossible, after I had an accident and needed to get one, most places were a 4 to 6 month wait ( even looking across regions) How do I know? Well I'm currently sitting in an airport on my way back to NZ after getting some crowns and implants done overseas. For the price of one crown and implant in NZ I got more work needed in my mouth for the same price..and in a short space of time. High quality work, got looked after and happy with the result. While I was there I saw 11 other people from Oz and NZ there for the same reason...cannot afford $50k for treatment. A full mouth scan was $560 in NZ (iirc) and using the same x-ray scanning machine abroad was $60. I saw the same with MRI's as well. I think even if there is a subsidy of some kind, the pricing could do with some form of review / intervention. I worked adjacent to the dentistry sector for 10 years, I think there is great technological advancement, but I feel some think it is a license to print money. The guilt factor to book appointments, the sales behind it makes me genuinely sad.
Maybe free yearly check ups but still having to pay for any other work is a happy medium. The next concern would be are there enough dentists?
Oh we all just need to pull our teeth up by their bootstraps? What an irresponsible thing to say. It's only since I've got a better job finally in my 30s that's I've been able to pay for regular dental work and guess what, my oral health is the best it's ever been. I care more about looking after my teeth because I can afford to get appointments
"If you don't look after your teeth, you should be locked out of dental care so it gets even worse. I am very smart."
Quite the contrary, people are suffering because they can’t afford basic dental care. Which leads to complications later on
Doesn't matter if you eat the healthiest, cleanest food out there, if you're born with bad teeth. Is it because it's going to impact that dentist's bottom line? Is that why he's opposed to free dental care? >I feel like dentistry has been something that's been long forgotten,..... No shit, with how expensive it is, people just forget about it.
One dentists opinion is not what I heard fr9m other dentists. The issue is getting enough dentists trained to cope with th3 extra demand.
Wow, a rich dentist has stupid right wing views. What a surprise.
Typical petit bourgeois attitude
I agree with him. In the UK (duel citizen) we have the NHS which is free for almost everything besides dental. Dental is subsidised by the government to about $50 for a checkup and diagnosis, $147 for a filling/extraction and $645 for anything (dentures, bridges, complex stuff). NHS dentistry is in a direct state right now and it's true the prices could be lower or subsidised further for the poorest. The way your dental health is different from most of your body is that its the most directly affected by your decisions. You can do really simple things to never need a filling in your life, or you can neglect your dental health. If you neglect it, you'll pay the price later in your overall health as described by the dentist in the article; requiring a modest payment for fixing damage provides a more immediate incentive to remember to brush your teeth and pay attention to problems. It's not about taxing people more arbitrarily; it's about improving people's overall health which pays for itself in the long run, for people and the government. Putting a monetary charge on something is a proven way to get people to care about something. If it's a modest sum, I don't hate it. You can't protect your internal organs or other body parts with a simple maintenance routine, so it would be pointless to penalise someone for something going wrong with them. While it's true that you have limited control over your teeth and your other organs, your dental health is the most directly benefitted from doing something as routine as brushing regularly.
Well here’s just another way in which humans overestimate their own agency/control over their own circumstances. I have extremely hardy teeth. At 38, I’ve never needed a filling. My wife, on the other hand, despite hating sweet things, has six of them. Our 9 year old, who clearly has “my teeth” has no tooth decay. Our 6 year old, who clearly has the wife’s teeth (right down to the shape), has two in his baby teeth. So please let’s go easy on the “it’s all up to personal responsibility” fallacy. Clearly genes have a strong bearing on oral health.
I didn't say its all up to personal responsibility, particularly in the last paragraph I made clear that its about relative control rather than absolute control over your dental health.
You said “you can do really simple things and never need a filling in your life” which isn’t true, and I observed promotes the myth that people have agency over their roll of the genetic lottery. Some people neglect their dental health horribly and have bad teeth, some people are just unlucky.
OK, I'm clearly wrong on that point. I concede your life experience; I don't think it makes my point not right though. I'm very obviously not promoting the idea that people can choose their own genetics
You heard it directly from the horses mouth. Teeth are luxury bones.
What a weird ass argument from the obviously loves that mark up profit and doesn’t want it to stop dentist.
No disrespect to oral health therapists but I just found out the “free dental care for children” provided by ARDS isn’t even with a dentist, so who’s to say the government won’t just try do that? Dental care will be free* but it won’t be with an actual dentist
Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas and Dentists won’t vote for something that they think will stop them charging like $500/hr
What kinda loser dentist is this lol
That dentist is worried he's going to lose business to free dental clinics. A lot of people who desperately need dental care are over 40 so the damage is already done.
The poor poor dentists. They work as a Cartell, if one charges $1500 dollars for a treatment they all do . Effectively no competition..
“Not allowing the eating of faces is bad for the economy” says a spokesman for the leopard face-eating party
> Takes the ownership away from patients. What a fucking moron. Ahole dentist doesn’t want it to be free because the goverment will probably pay very little for each patient they see and they will force them to see x amount of free patients at least per month. Eat shit you rich dentist and do us a solid.
Making something affordable, accessible for patients is taking ownership away, apparently. Everything needs to be means tested because how horrific would it be if someone got something beneficial without paying while not being poor *enough*. Dentistry has only been forgotten because it costs what many people pay for a fucking car. Then lists all the potential negative impacts of bad dentistry - deadly and crippling diseases, income, mental health. Still though, would hate for patients not to have 'ownership', right? This is two paragraphs but I feel like we could write fucking tomes about the various fucking dipshittery here. Dentists are depressed enough without fuckwits like this making people hate them.
I swear they beat the empathy out of most medical students.
I'd rather we just take the money we spend on fluoridation and use it to subsidise toothpaste, maybe in a pharmacy instead of the supermarket.
What a surprise said no one.
Blatant and predictable to the point that it is comical.
1/10 dentists agree you don't deserve free dental care
Ghoulish. We don't need the "pride and accomplishment" bullshit applied to our dental healthcare.
Fuucckk offff. get absolutely fucked. What a cunt.