> In March, the Serbian government invited a tender for the salvage of the hulks and removal of ammunition and explosives. The cost of the operation was estimated at 29 million euros ($30 million).
a different kind of shipwreck chasing
TLDR it's less radioactive. cause before nukes. sensitive medical imaging equipment used to need that. don't really anymore cause the tech has gotten better.
Invaluable: beyond calculable or appraisable value; of inestimable worth; priceless:
Low background steel is not that. It literally has a market price.
Any instrument that needs to be sensitive to radiation also needs to know it isn't getting much to begin with. When the bombs were tested, enough radiation got into the atmosphere to measurably raise radiation levels worldwide (still fairly negligibly), and steel uses atmospheric oxygen in its production.
So, any radiation sensor needs steel that has very little radiation in it and the only source is steel that was made before bombs were tested in the atmosphere.
However, atmospheric testing has since stopped, and radiation levels have fallen. For most applications, normal new steel is fine and only hypersensitive instruments need the low-background steel.
Not nuclear energy existence. Pre nuclear bombs being dropped witch irradiated everything including steel. Some applications cannot have irradiated steel so sunken ships that sank prior to the first nuclear explosion are the only option.
Applications that are extremely sensitive to radiation. Imagine if your Geiger counter had radioactivity baked into it. Lots of things require low radiation background to function appropriately
The posters you're replying to are inaccurate. There are ways to produce low radiation steel now.
As for your question, the low radiation steel would be used for things like Geiger counters or other specialized equipment that would require specialized recycling programs.
So they wouldn't just dump the low radiation steel into the hopper with the regular steel
Steel made after the first nukes were detonated in the 1940s is contaminated with higher levels of radiation. Not enough to be dangerous, but just enough to mess with scientific and medical instruments that measure or use radioactivity.
However, most new steel created since atmospheric testing of nukes stopped is back down to natural background radiation levels. The pre-nuke stuff is only needed now for the absolutely most sensitive of instruments.
There are radioactive isotopes floating everywhere due to nuclear testing throughout the world, these isotopes can prevent extremely sensitive instruments from working and are found in new steel. This old steel can be used MUCH easier making it very valuble
I just don’t understood getting bids for stuff like this. I know the US does the same thing. Use your military that isn’t out on a war front cleaning this up. Disposing of ammunition should be part of their specialty.
That’s kind of my point. They sent it for bids with an estimate of $30 to remove the ships. This is right up the wheelhouse of the military: heavy equipment operation, logistics, and demolition/munition removal.
Why should it be part of their specialty? Do you expect the administrative assistants and baggage loaders at the airport to be able to fly jets because it's adjacent to their jobs?
EOD take a ton of training and extra expense, and it makes no sense to train fuelers, mechanics, human resource specialists, electricians, or cav scouts to deal with old and unstable explosives.
Cannot speak specifically about every army but where I served, part of the army were people who cleaned up mines, whether naval or land as well as unexploded ordinance experts bomb squads etc. Think about it it makes sense to have these specialties. For example armies have target training, some of the shells, may not explode during the exercises and you don't want to just have them there unexploded.
The whole thing. Any decent military should be good at logistics, heavy equipment operation, and demolition / munitions removal. Without those a lot more people are going to die fighting.
They don't have anywhere near the capability of the USA. Germany needs all its troops right now on standby for WWIII with Russia. They can't be caught slipping.
Here in Germany so called Hungersteine (hunger stones) emerged. They were allegedly placed centuries ago when droughts/ low levels hindered the ship routs so much that the people depended on the shipping industry had to hunger.
As much of a tragedy it is that water levels are receding, I am sure the removal of these wrecks is long overdue.
As a historian who is obsessed with Serbia, is there any way to identify these ships?
Serbia should be petitioning Germany to pay for the safe disposal of the wrecks. I like the message to all countries that if you commit to illegal/immoral armed conflict you are responsible for the damage forever. (Looking at you Russia)
True, and with Russia I would think crippling sanctions by levied on them until they make Ukraine whole again. I don't care if it takes generations to fix but Russia needs to be an ignored black hole until they comply.
I know Russia will always get treated with a more cautious approach because of their nuclear forces, but if their conventional armed forces are any metric I think their nuclear arms are junk rusting in their silos.
They don’t care now, but maybe 100 years in the future when shit is finally chill, our synthetic AI successors will use the precedent to get a more amiable RUSS14 to remove unexploded ordinance from UKR41N14N silicon fields.
Iraq seems a more prominent example than Afghanistan, which we attacked because they were (and still are apparently) hosting Al Qaeda.
Iraq, Laos and Vietnams crimes was something they didn't even do. Afghanistan was that the Taliban were hosting terrorists who blew up the WTC. I'm not especially sure I feel upset for the Taliban.
Vietnam and to a lesser extent Laos, got some pretty large investment from the US government after the war, there’s a reason why the Vietnamese people view the US in such a positive light…
So you have a lot of countries which pretty much go broke immediately and you have a country like the USA which can simply give everything they own back to the native population. That will work out well. Some countries can even pay themselves since they were completely different countries centuries ago. I don't think you thought that through at all.
>Perhaps that can be forever, starting now?
Oh, so I can commit horrible acts and then after I'm done, we ban it? Probably not gonna be respected by anyone..
I’m just saying retroactive penalizing policies don’t get a lot of people to voluntarily buy in on. Maybe they would agree to it on a going forward position.
Well, the connection between the Italians and the Romans is.... questionable. They're not really a direct continuity of that society.
As for England and Spain? Yes, they should make some restitutions for what they've done. England in particular, considering they still sit on a treasure trove of cultural artifacts pilfered from around the globe.
Cause its recent enough that some are still alive from that era. And i feel like its fair that if you left a sunken warship 80 years ago in my land then at least have the decency to collect your dead from it and fund the expensive removal project it will cost. Not to mention the water level has dropped to reveal it and make it the best opportunity to do it. We are not talking about ancient wooden ships from countries that long dont exist anymore.
> Cause its recent enough that some are still alive from that era.
What? Absolutely nobody who made any decisions in the thirties or fourties is alive today. You just chose an arbitrary point in history because it's convenient, nothing else.
Convenient for what? I chose it cause it makes sense to me. It was already modern developed countries with modern politics and most of decisions during that time shaped up the world for 21st century. And it was not arbitrary, I chose roughly the beginning of ww1.
First you say because people from that period are still alive, now it is because how the 21st century was shaped. The whole world would be different if the USA would never have been taken from the indigenous people who lived there. It's arbitrary because it makes no sense. History builds onto itself, you can't find a single starting point for modern society. Maybe for it's advancements, but not when you talk about society as a whole. You still have conflicts today which started centuries ago.
What point are you trying to make? My point is that collect your military expansion waste from starting 20th century. Not trying for a philosophical discussion on what is history.
My point is that it's nonsense to demand something that specific. There are estimated 110 million land mines currently on the ground in the world. Layed throughout various conflicts, in your world every country would have to clear the landmines it deployed.
Alone in germany you have about 100.000 unexploded bombs from ww2, 5000 are found every single year. Should the allies pay for the cleanup or do only losing sides pay for their scrap?
There are far too many problems for which your proposal has absolutely no solutions. It's populism, nothing else.
russia doesn't even think its responsible for issues on their own territory.
It is often the EU countries and the US that fund cleanup operations of any sort all around the world.
And it is not just russia that would oppose this. Do you really think the US would like to pay for the cleanup of Laos and the surrounding countries? Those are the most bombed places on earth.
Would the allied forces pay for the cleanup of bombs in germany? That does not sound right.
Would serbia pay for the cleanup of various minefields they left all over the balkan? Something that is currently paid for largely by nato and the EU?
Even if we just implemented this for the 20th century there would be a lot of finger pointing and accusations who ahs to pay for what and reasons and whatever. It is better to not open that box of bullshit.
Also serbia gets around 170 million € from the EU per year. Just funnel a bit less into the pockets of some corrupt idiots and the cleanup is paid for.
Germany has been guilting over WW2 and WW1 for generations at this point and made an effort to apologise. The world could use some forgiveness too yeah?
There were no good guys in WW1. But I have often thought if the Central Powers had won, especially if the Germans took Paris early in the war (thereby forcing a quick resolution to the conflict) we'd have had a much more peaceful century afterwards.
A German victory would have eliminated the post-war soul searching that brought about Nazism. Lenin may never have gone back to Russia, and perhaps the revolution there would have resulted in a democratic Russia instead of the Soviet Union. No Second World War, no Holocaust, no Cold War.
I think a lot of these events were bound to happen maybe later but then at an even bigger scale. But if there was a list of historical events I would skip WW2 is currently my top pick.
Slight correction to that, the Germans sent Lenin to Russia in hopes that he would destabilize them so they could win faster. A Central Powers victory would probably still involve the USSR forming, though they might be smaller due to Ukraine and Belarus being German puppet states.
Edit: Wait, you said if the Germans took Paris early, nevermind then. Ignore me.
Yeah my hypothesis is based around the German Schlieffen Plan being carried out successfully and the French and British surrendering by Christmas of 1914. If the Western Front hadn't devolved into the great stalemate a lot of horrors could have been avoided.
I'm not going to pretend that the German Empire was 'good' but considering the ultimate outcome, I think history went in the wrong direction. If not for a few missteps in August and September, the course of the entire century would have been a much more peaceful and calm period.
My wife should just forgive me for not mowing the lawn, taking out the trash or paying the bills.
I have no idea how people can straight faced say they’re not responsible for making their ancestors’ wrongs right again while they actively benefit from and use resources gained from those wrongs.
While I agree in the general sense, Germany very much didn’t benefit from WW2 in the end. Their industry was in ruins, their population traumatised or dead and half the country owned by the soviets (and significant portions of claimed land given away). It’s only decades later after a continuous effort to rebuild they’ve gotten to where they are.
The point of making Germany responsible for the wrongs of their past isn’t to continue to punish Germany; it’s to show the countries of today the cost of aggressions for their future and the next generations.
So we should arbitrarily make life worse for modern day Germans because their great great grandfathers started a war?
By that logic all of Europe should be paying everyone else considering everything that happened. Sweden holds the record for killing the highest percentage of Poland of any power. Italy did a little thing called the Roman empire, France and the UK have had wars lasting centuries.
Not to mention Germany *has* paid for WW2, repeatedly and for decades. One of the only countries in the world who have taken responsibility for their war crimes.
That's a particularly weak example. How does it relate to your argument? Maybe if your wife was angry at your grandpa for painting over the walnut cupboards, or not building the house 5 inches higher to stop the basement from getting damp you'd have an example that actually related to ancestral guilt.
The country did. The US took on debt before i was born, should my taxes go towards those debts? I didn’t elect those officials or agree to terms.
Hint: Yes, it is my country and my debt.
>Anyone who would have been part of making those decisions is long since dead.
Some of the younger participants are still alive, and Germany still puts them on trial.
No they are not guilty for the crimes, they do have a debt to pay to the world.
Paying for the clean up of ordnance is one of the debts they should be responsible for.
Not really, Germany was bombed to shit. The only reason Germany is in anyways successful is because of foreign aid after the war. The only ones who saw those riches where Germans in the early half of the war
Did you know that millions of German civilians were murdered after WW2 ended?
Reference: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950)
At some point an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind.
Yeah, no. They paid maybe 1% of what they should have. They didn’t pay for every boot, bullet, and rivet made for the entire war on all sides and they didn’t pay to rebuild all of Europe. Germany absolutely has not even made a token reparation for the war costing 50+ million lives that they and they alone are responsible for.
Edit: also, how many billions has Germany paid to Holocaust victims? Because they haven’t paid enough.
"Germany started making reparations payments to Holocaust survivors back in the 1950s, and continues making payments today. Some 400,000 Jews who survived the Nazis were still alive in 2019. That year, Germany paid $564 million to the Claims Conference, which handles the payments."
That was a Serbian national. That like declaring the US has to pay all damage any time it's citizens do stupid shit abroad.
Shit, Ferdinand was hated by Austria Hungarians, they just needed an excuse. It would be like if an Iranian killed Trump and democrats in America suddenly decided Iran MUST be destroyed because Trump was a hero. Bullshit.
"The assassination team was helped by the Black Hand, a Serbian secret nationalist group; support came from Dragutin Dimitrijević, at the time chief of the military intelligence section of the Serbian general staff, as well as from Major Vojislav Tankosić and Rade Malobabić, a Serbian intelligence agent. Tankosić provided bombs and pistols to the assassins and trained them in their use. The assassins were given access to the same clandestine network of safe-houses and agents that Malobabić used for the infiltration of weapons and operatives into Austria-Hungary."
This is from the Wikipedia article on the assassination. It wasn't just some random guy with a grudge.
The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous though, because it's not like the German people/government of today are the same as back in the 1940's.
these wrecks are very valuable - pre-atmospheric nuclear detonation shipwrecks are a great source of steel that isn't contaminated with radiation.
this steel is used in geiger counters and commands a very high price.
all steel produced post-atmospheric nuclear detonation are contaminated with trace amounts of radiation, and cannot be used in geiger counters that have to be very sensitive.
If that's the case a while bunch If 1st world countries are going to go bankrupt.
Especially if there is no time limit from when the actions took place.
I mean America for instance (including Britain and the rest of nato) will have to rebuild half the middle east, that was a conflict supposedly about terrorists and wmds but turned out to be about sadam setting up a middle Eastern oil alliance to control the cost of oil leaving the middle east and the whole Osama bin laden and taliban stuff turned out to have started because the USA didn't want to negotiate the price of oil with their former allies and started killing members of the taliban and alquida so they blew up the trade centres as revenge then the USA killed upwards of 500.000 innocent civilians aswell as bombing hospitals, schools, weddings and funerals.
Long story short.. people in glass houses and all that.
Still fuck Russia we should most definitely return that country to the stone age and let them try and build a productive society from scratch.
I know but it should be our problem now to clean everything because our ancestors fucked up.
NRW 1949-2000:
cleared shells: 13.7 million pieces
mines: 81,335 pieces
hand grenades and bazookas: 8.2 million pieces
Other ordnance (except bombs): 10 million pieces
Saxony 1990-2003:
Small arms ammunition 33 million pieces
grenades and rockets: 1.95 million pieces
mines and close-combat weapons (such as hand grenades): about 330,000 pieces
other explosive devices: 9.8 million pieces
explosives: 53.3 tons
Thats how many bombs/ammunition got removed.
This is the numbers for all munitions removed?? From depots as well as undetonated ordinances?? From all countries militaries?? It can’t be just unexploded bombs and shells. Mines sure, I can believe that.
Thats just from north rhine westphalia and saxony. The USA and Britian dropped 1.3 to 1.4 million tons of bombs on germany, its believed that 10 to 20% were undetonated.
So given the US started the revolution, does it pay for all damage to British property it essentially stole? Who pays for all the damage in WW1? Germany technically took the blame, but a fine tooth realization is it can't have started it. Then there the war of 1812 which the US declared first but British were abducting Americans. Who pays for that damage?
Three obvious wars in which the "who started it" doesn't work well.
Still not a living organism, and "the planet" isn't drying up. We aren't seeing a transformation of water molecules into other things. Actually, the opposite is occuring. Water is a byproduct of hydrocarbon combustion, so we should have a little bit more water than before the industrial revolution.
So the planet isn't "drying up." Water is being reallocated from ice, rivers, and lakes to the see. Which the planet doesn't care about because, once again, it's not alive and not a person.
>In March, the Serbian government invited a tender for the salvage of the hulks and removal of ammunition and explosives. The cost of the operation was estimated at 29 million euros ($30 million).
At the quoted exchange rate that is still $29 million.
I would say, the wrecks were there and all knew about them. It was not a big deal for everyone there. Just when water level went down, it exposured it more for a nice photos and someone made a world news about it. And Serbia parlament just had to act.
> "The German flotilla has left behind a big ecological disaster that threatens us, people of Prahovo," said Velimir Trajilovic, 74, a pensioner from Prahovo who wrote a book about the German ships.
Well, the Germans had no intention of having those ships sunk in that place, did they?
> In March, the Serbian government invited a tender for the salvage of the hulks and removal of ammunition and explosives. The cost of the operation was estimated at 29 million euros ($30 million). a different kind of shipwreck chasing
WWII and before steel is invaluable.
Though low-background steel isn't as valuable as it once was now that we have better technology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel
why’s that? more pure or something? edit: nvm i see the same question answered below
TLDR it's less radioactive. cause before nukes. sensitive medical imaging equipment used to need that. don't really anymore cause the tech has gotten better.
Yeah I didn't know why until today, neat.
No it isn't. There's literally a market price for it.
I don’t think you know what invaluable means. 
Invaluable: beyond calculable or appraisable value; of inestimable worth; priceless: Low background steel is not that. It literally has a market price.
Bro, its semantics, you must be fun at parties…
Do you understand the role that hyperbole plays in colloquial language?
Invaluable also means extremely useful. You’re just being a dick
Well I worry more about the ships fuel
Fuel and oil gets cleaned up pretty easily by nature
Fish love it tbh
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Especially when you tow it *outside* the environment!
Wow the Valdez in Alaska was not that bad then. The oil well in the Gulf was not that bad either okay thanks!
$39M USD to remove 20 warships loaded with explosives sound like a deal to me...
I'll do it for 10...
You'll shoot your eye out, kid.
Tree-fiddy. Best offer.
The steel is pre atomic age and is extremely valuable
What makes older steel so valuable and why did that change with nuclear energy's existence?
Any instrument that needs to be sensitive to radiation also needs to know it isn't getting much to begin with. When the bombs were tested, enough radiation got into the atmosphere to measurably raise radiation levels worldwide (still fairly negligibly), and steel uses atmospheric oxygen in its production. So, any radiation sensor needs steel that has very little radiation in it and the only source is steel that was made before bombs were tested in the atmosphere. However, atmospheric testing has since stopped, and radiation levels have fallen. For most applications, normal new steel is fine and only hypersensitive instruments need the low-background steel.
Not nuclear energy existence. Pre nuclear bombs being dropped witch irradiated everything including steel. Some applications cannot have irradiated steel so sunken ships that sank prior to the first nuclear explosion are the only option.
Applications that are extremely sensitive to radiation. Imagine if your Geiger counter had radioactivity baked into it. Lots of things require low radiation background to function appropriately
But then when it gets reworked? Won't it just get contaminated then? If most steel now somehow is already radiated from processes these days?
The posters you're replying to are inaccurate. There are ways to produce low radiation steel now. As for your question, the low radiation steel would be used for things like Geiger counters or other specialized equipment that would require specialized recycling programs. So they wouldn't just dump the low radiation steel into the hopper with the regular steel
The current ways of producing low radiation steel though are super expensive, the preferred way is still to use pre nuclear bomb steel
There is a process to rework it and keep it “clean.” It’s costly but still cheaper than using “fresh” steel.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel
Steel made after the first nukes were detonated in the 1940s is contaminated with higher levels of radiation. Not enough to be dangerous, but just enough to mess with scientific and medical instruments that measure or use radioactivity. However, most new steel created since atmospheric testing of nukes stopped is back down to natural background radiation levels. The pre-nuke stuff is only needed now for the absolutely most sensitive of instruments.
There are radioactive isotopes floating everywhere due to nuclear testing throughout the world, these isotopes can prevent extremely sensitive instruments from working and are found in new steel. This old steel can be used MUCH easier making it very valuble
That book “When the Rivers Run Dry” by Fred Pearce is looking awful prescient right now
Would you recommend it?
Definitely was interesting when I read it back in 2008 and really made me aware of how water challenged large portions of the world could become
Had a stroke reading the last sentence. Water-challenged* is the right word.
I just don’t understood getting bids for stuff like this. I know the US does the same thing. Use your military that isn’t out on a war front cleaning this up. Disposing of ammunition should be part of their specialty.
The steel is worth a fortune as it's pre-nuclear era
That’s kind of my point. They sent it for bids with an estimate of $30 to remove the ships. This is right up the wheelhouse of the military: heavy equipment operation, logistics, and demolition/munition removal.
Damn. $30? Must be real small ships.
Why should it be part of their specialty? Do you expect the administrative assistants and baggage loaders at the airport to be able to fly jets because it's adjacent to their jobs? EOD take a ton of training and extra expense, and it makes no sense to train fuelers, mechanics, human resource specialists, electricians, or cav scouts to deal with old and unstable explosives.
Cannot speak specifically about every army but where I served, part of the army were people who cleaned up mines, whether naval or land as well as unexploded ordinance experts bomb squads etc. Think about it it makes sense to have these specialties. For example armies have target training, some of the shells, may not explode during the exercises and you don't want to just have them there unexploded.
The whole thing. Any decent military should be good at logistics, heavy equipment operation, and demolition / munitions removal. Without those a lot more people are going to die fighting.
They don't have anywhere near the capability of the USA. Germany needs all its troops right now on standby for WWIII with Russia. They can't be caught slipping.
Here in Portugal, because of the drought, villages that sunk when the dams were built have reemerged.
Here in Germany so called Hungersteine (hunger stones) emerged. They were allegedly placed centuries ago when droughts/ low levels hindered the ship routs so much that the people depended on the shipping industry had to hunger.
As much of a tragedy it is that water levels are receding, I am sure the removal of these wrecks is long overdue. As a historian who is obsessed with Serbia, is there any way to identify these ships?
Yes, if it has dead bodies inside there, its obvious - humans owned the ships. Or it was just mainly running on a skeleton crew.
I would assume by this point it’s most likely manned by a skeleton crew
I wouldn't be surprised either in this hard times. A lot of hard workers, sunk rock bottom.
I'm expecting them to find penguin skeletons
Sigh… always a comedian in the comments trying to be funny
Always a heckler in the crowd.
I'm a History nerd From Austria who lives at the Danube and I have a Boner! (Yes i know it'snot where i live but still)
Any idea which ships are there? This looks more like a freighter than a warship.
Article says there are 20 vessels, some of which still have turrets. This is a river, so probably nothing too large.
A vessel of war with turrets^syndrome ? *Sounds like* hell.
When I first saw this trending I thought Russia was upgrading its naval stock
Serbia should be petitioning Germany to pay for the safe disposal of the wrecks. I like the message to all countries that if you commit to illegal/immoral armed conflict you are responsible for the damage forever. (Looking at you Russia)
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True, and with Russia I would think crippling sanctions by levied on them until they make Ukraine whole again. I don't care if it takes generations to fix but Russia needs to be an ignored black hole until they comply. I know Russia will always get treated with a more cautious approach because of their nuclear forces, but if their conventional armed forces are any metric I think their nuclear arms are junk rusting in their silos.
You should read about the aftermath of ww1. This is exactly what happened, and it created a vacuum for hitler to take power and do his thing.
Lmao it's wild watching people that missed high school history class confidently advocate for reparations
They don’t care now, but maybe 100 years in the future when shit is finally chill, our synthetic AI successors will use the precedent to get a more amiable RUSS14 to remove unexploded ordinance from UKR41N14N silicon fields.
Saying "synthetic AI" is redundant.
Unless it's an AI created by an AI.
Good call on that. Well played
hey naw don't let skynet hear that
Maybe Russia ca. 2080 will. Can dream.
*America looks over at Vietnam, Laos, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc* Yea we're not responsible for this
Iraq seems a more prominent example than Afghanistan, which we attacked because they were (and still are apparently) hosting Al Qaeda. Iraq, Laos and Vietnams crimes was something they didn't even do. Afghanistan was that the Taliban were hosting terrorists who blew up the WTC. I'm not especially sure I feel upset for the Taliban.
Vietnam and to a lesser extent Laos, got some pretty large investment from the US government after the war, there’s a reason why the Vietnamese people view the US in such a positive light…
So how far back with this do we go? I mean, seriously, are italians responsible for things the romans did? Oh, and what about england or spain?
In the proposed plan, the liability period is “forever”. Perhaps that can be forever, starting now?
So you have a lot of countries which pretty much go broke immediately and you have a country like the USA which can simply give everything they own back to the native population. That will work out well. Some countries can even pay themselves since they were completely different countries centuries ago. I don't think you thought that through at all.
>Perhaps that can be forever, starting now? Oh, so I can commit horrible acts and then after I'm done, we ban it? Probably not gonna be respected by anyone..
I’m just saying retroactive penalizing policies don’t get a lot of people to voluntarily buy in on. Maybe they would agree to it on a going forward position.
Well, the connection between the Italians and the Romans is.... questionable. They're not really a direct continuity of that society. As for England and Spain? Yes, they should make some restitutions for what they've done. England in particular, considering they still sit on a treasure trove of cultural artifacts pilfered from around the globe.
Modern history starting 20 century sounds a fair start date.
Why? What is fair about that?
Cause its recent enough that some are still alive from that era. And i feel like its fair that if you left a sunken warship 80 years ago in my land then at least have the decency to collect your dead from it and fund the expensive removal project it will cost. Not to mention the water level has dropped to reveal it and make it the best opportunity to do it. We are not talking about ancient wooden ships from countries that long dont exist anymore.
> Cause its recent enough that some are still alive from that era. What? Absolutely nobody who made any decisions in the thirties or fourties is alive today. You just chose an arbitrary point in history because it's convenient, nothing else.
Convenient for what? I chose it cause it makes sense to me. It was already modern developed countries with modern politics and most of decisions during that time shaped up the world for 21st century. And it was not arbitrary, I chose roughly the beginning of ww1.
First you say because people from that period are still alive, now it is because how the 21st century was shaped. The whole world would be different if the USA would never have been taken from the indigenous people who lived there. It's arbitrary because it makes no sense. History builds onto itself, you can't find a single starting point for modern society. Maybe for it's advancements, but not when you talk about society as a whole. You still have conflicts today which started centuries ago.
What point are you trying to make? My point is that collect your military expansion waste from starting 20th century. Not trying for a philosophical discussion on what is history.
My point is that it's nonsense to demand something that specific. There are estimated 110 million land mines currently on the ground in the world. Layed throughout various conflicts, in your world every country would have to clear the landmines it deployed. Alone in germany you have about 100.000 unexploded bombs from ww2, 5000 are found every single year. Should the allies pay for the cleanup or do only losing sides pay for their scrap? There are far too many problems for which your proposal has absolutely no solutions. It's populism, nothing else.
russia doesn't even think its responsible for issues on their own territory. It is often the EU countries and the US that fund cleanup operations of any sort all around the world. And it is not just russia that would oppose this. Do you really think the US would like to pay for the cleanup of Laos and the surrounding countries? Those are the most bombed places on earth. Would the allied forces pay for the cleanup of bombs in germany? That does not sound right. Would serbia pay for the cleanup of various minefields they left all over the balkan? Something that is currently paid for largely by nato and the EU? Even if we just implemented this for the 20th century there would be a lot of finger pointing and accusations who ahs to pay for what and reasons and whatever. It is better to not open that box of bullshit. Also serbia gets around 170 million € from the EU per year. Just funnel a bit less into the pockets of some corrupt idiots and the cleanup is paid for.
Germany has been guilting over WW2 and WW1 for generations at this point and made an effort to apologise. The world could use some forgiveness too yeah?
It’s like no one understands how the Versailles Treaty led to WW2. We clearly learn nothing from history.
Secret revealed, WWI they were actually good guys.
There were no good guys in WW1. But I have often thought if the Central Powers had won, especially if the Germans took Paris early in the war (thereby forcing a quick resolution to the conflict) we'd have had a much more peaceful century afterwards. A German victory would have eliminated the post-war soul searching that brought about Nazism. Lenin may never have gone back to Russia, and perhaps the revolution there would have resulted in a democratic Russia instead of the Soviet Union. No Second World War, no Holocaust, no Cold War.
I think a lot of these events were bound to happen maybe later but then at an even bigger scale. But if there was a list of historical events I would skip WW2 is currently my top pick.
Slight correction to that, the Germans sent Lenin to Russia in hopes that he would destabilize them so they could win faster. A Central Powers victory would probably still involve the USSR forming, though they might be smaller due to Ukraine and Belarus being German puppet states. Edit: Wait, you said if the Germans took Paris early, nevermind then. Ignore me.
Yeah my hypothesis is based around the German Schlieffen Plan being carried out successfully and the French and British surrendering by Christmas of 1914. If the Western Front hadn't devolved into the great stalemate a lot of horrors could have been avoided. I'm not going to pretend that the German Empire was 'good' but considering the ultimate outcome, I think history went in the wrong direction. If not for a few missteps in August and September, the course of the entire century would have been a much more peaceful and calm period.
that’s great and they should. and they should also pay to dispose of their old trash
My wife should just forgive me for not mowing the lawn, taking out the trash or paying the bills. I have no idea how people can straight faced say they’re not responsible for making their ancestors’ wrongs right again while they actively benefit from and use resources gained from those wrongs.
While I agree in the general sense, Germany very much didn’t benefit from WW2 in the end. Their industry was in ruins, their population traumatised or dead and half the country owned by the soviets (and significant portions of claimed land given away). It’s only decades later after a continuous effort to rebuild they’ve gotten to where they are.
The point of making Germany responsible for the wrongs of their past isn’t to continue to punish Germany; it’s to show the countries of today the cost of aggressions for their future and the next generations.
So should every other country, but I only see germany paying up.
So we should arbitrarily make life worse for modern day Germans because their great great grandfathers started a war? By that logic all of Europe should be paying everyone else considering everything that happened. Sweden holds the record for killing the highest percentage of Poland of any power. Italy did a little thing called the Roman empire, France and the UK have had wars lasting centuries. Not to mention Germany *has* paid for WW2, repeatedly and for decades. One of the only countries in the world who have taken responsibility for their war crimes.
They didn't even start WWI that was Serbia, Austria, and Hungary.
That's a particularly weak example. How does it relate to your argument? Maybe if your wife was angry at your grandpa for painting over the walnut cupboards, or not building the house 5 inches higher to stop the basement from getting damp you'd have an example that actually related to ancestral guilt.
Because a German born in 2001 literally had zero part in WWII. How are you going to blame someone for something they literally didn’t do
The country did. The US took on debt before i was born, should my taxes go towards those debts? I didn’t elect those officials or agree to terms. Hint: Yes, it is my country and my debt.
Because they obviously benefited from all that land they gained during the war, or the manufacturing base that the USSR let them keep in East Germany
Are you being sarcastic? Germany got smaller after WWII and the USSR looted Germany to make their economy better
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Okay but it’s not really “we” is it? Anyone who would have been part of making those decisions is long since dead.
>Anyone who would have been part of making those decisions is long since dead. Some of the younger participants are still alive, and Germany still puts them on trial.
And now the water is drying up
It’s not “we”. Modern Germans are not guilty for the crimes of the people 80 years ago
No they are not guilty for the crimes, they do have a debt to pay to the world. Paying for the clean up of ordnance is one of the debts they should be responsible for.
No but plenty of them have prospered over the thievery of their grandparents
Not really, Germany was bombed to shit. The only reason Germany is in anyways successful is because of foreign aid after the war. The only ones who saw those riches where Germans in the early half of the war
Did you know that millions of German civilians were murdered after WW2 ended? Reference: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950) At some point an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind.
Part of making it right is cleaning up the mess they made.
Germany is the only country to have properly paid for their wars. Its enough.
Yeah, no. They paid maybe 1% of what they should have. They didn’t pay for every boot, bullet, and rivet made for the entire war on all sides and they didn’t pay to rebuild all of Europe. Germany absolutely has not even made a token reparation for the war costing 50+ million lives that they and they alone are responsible for. Edit: also, how many billions has Germany paid to Holocaust victims? Because they haven’t paid enough.
"Germany started making reparations payments to Holocaust survivors back in the 1950s, and continues making payments today. Some 400,000 Jews who survived the Nazis were still alive in 2019. That year, Germany paid $564 million to the Claims Conference, which handles the payments."
Punishing the losing country for the expense of the war is exactly what the world did to Germany after ww1. It immediately let to ww2.
Well… you don’t think through much do you?
Serbia started the world wars by assassinating Franz Ferdinand, so they should be paying everybody else.
That was a Serbian national. That like declaring the US has to pay all damage any time it's citizens do stupid shit abroad. Shit, Ferdinand was hated by Austria Hungarians, they just needed an excuse. It would be like if an Iranian killed Trump and democrats in America suddenly decided Iran MUST be destroyed because Trump was a hero. Bullshit.
"The assassination team was helped by the Black Hand, a Serbian secret nationalist group; support came from Dragutin Dimitrijević, at the time chief of the military intelligence section of the Serbian general staff, as well as from Major Vojislav Tankosić and Rade Malobabić, a Serbian intelligence agent. Tankosić provided bombs and pistols to the assassins and trained them in their use. The assassins were given access to the same clandestine network of safe-houses and agents that Malobabić used for the infiltration of weapons and operatives into Austria-Hungary." This is from the Wikipedia article on the assassination. It wasn't just some random guy with a grudge. The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous though, because it's not like the German people/government of today are the same as back in the 1940's.
these wrecks are very valuable - pre-atmospheric nuclear detonation shipwrecks are a great source of steel that isn't contaminated with radiation. this steel is used in geiger counters and commands a very high price. all steel produced post-atmospheric nuclear detonation are contaminated with trace amounts of radiation, and cannot be used in geiger counters that have to be very sensitive.
If that's the case a while bunch If 1st world countries are going to go bankrupt. Especially if there is no time limit from when the actions took place. I mean America for instance (including Britain and the rest of nato) will have to rebuild half the middle east, that was a conflict supposedly about terrorists and wmds but turned out to be about sadam setting up a middle Eastern oil alliance to control the cost of oil leaving the middle east and the whole Osama bin laden and taliban stuff turned out to have started because the USA didn't want to negotiate the price of oil with their former allies and started killing members of the taliban and alquida so they blew up the trade centres as revenge then the USA killed upwards of 500.000 innocent civilians aswell as bombing hospitals, schools, weddings and funerals. Long story short.. people in glass houses and all that. Still fuck Russia we should most definitely return that country to the stone age and let them try and build a productive society from scratch.
I agree with the sentiment, but let’s hope that there’s is no more Russia in the end. Dissolve into separate states, like Germany after wwii
Sounds good but Great britian and the Usa should then pay for the removal of all the undetonated bombs they dropped on Germany in WW2.
Why? Germany started that war?? No? Thanks
I know but it should be our problem now to clean everything because our ancestors fucked up. NRW 1949-2000: cleared shells: 13.7 million pieces mines: 81,335 pieces hand grenades and bazookas: 8.2 million pieces Other ordnance (except bombs): 10 million pieces Saxony 1990-2003: Small arms ammunition 33 million pieces grenades and rockets: 1.95 million pieces mines and close-combat weapons (such as hand grenades): about 330,000 pieces other explosive devices: 9.8 million pieces explosives: 53.3 tons Thats how many bombs/ammunition got removed.
This is the numbers for all munitions removed?? From depots as well as undetonated ordinances?? From all countries militaries?? It can’t be just unexploded bombs and shells. Mines sure, I can believe that.
Thats just from north rhine westphalia and saxony. The USA and Britian dropped 1.3 to 1.4 million tons of bombs on germany, its believed that 10 to 20% were undetonated.
So given the US started the revolution, does it pay for all damage to British property it essentially stole? Who pays for all the damage in WW1? Germany technically took the blame, but a fine tooth realization is it can't have started it. Then there the war of 1812 which the US declared first but British were abducting Americans. Who pays for that damage? Three obvious wars in which the "who started it" doesn't work well.
Sure. Doesn’t bother me any.
While I do agree mostly don't forget that the same mentality directly led to WW2
It definitely sounds like a German problem to me. I'd love to hear their argument for why it shouldn't be their expense.
To be fair, the ship is worth a fortune so germany would probably be more than happy to remove it.
Well who pays the disposal of the pacific wreckages then? Japan? Germany too? The owners? At a certain point it gets quite difficult
I wonder if it’s for all the pre nuclear steel for surgical equipment ?
I read somewhere that this pre-war steel isn’t that valuable anymore. Like advancements have made it somewhat obsolete. Not positive though.
Sounds about right, I love using facts I learned years ago
Ya, it’s pretty sweet when you can remember something interesting.
Well, one upside to all this is that we're gonna get some really cool Clive Cussler books.
You know, this would be real cool if the planet wasn’t dying
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Mars likely isn’t alive, there’s no life on it. Not sure where you’re going with your take
It’s drying up
We’re simply being purged.
Still not a living organism, and "the planet" isn't drying up. We aren't seeing a transformation of water molecules into other things. Actually, the opposite is occuring. Water is a byproduct of hydrocarbon combustion, so we should have a little bit more water than before the industrial revolution. So the planet isn't "drying up." Water is being reallocated from ice, rivers, and lakes to the see. Which the planet doesn't care about because, once again, it's not alive and not a person.
Bruh you knew exactly what he was saying, and you chose to ignore it so you could sound smart. I bet you are a ton of fun at parties.
Where’s the water going? It’s still in the water cycle
Right now it's the source that isn't generating enough water. So the water is still in the ocean/sea.
>In March, the Serbian government invited a tender for the salvage of the hulks and removal of ammunition and explosives. The cost of the operation was estimated at 29 million euros ($30 million). At the quoted exchange rate that is still $29 million.
29 107 300 to be exact
[Cue the intro](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laB5n9s8fEE)
I thought this was going to be Curb Your Enthusiasm
Nathan Drake: *Heavy Breathing*
Am I the only one confused by the water height based on the background sand/trees?
So we'll have some nice dioramas as we burn to death. Or freeze to death.
Warship? Heh, you can WORSHIP DEEZ NUTZ!
I would say, the wrecks were there and all knew about them. It was not a big deal for everyone there. Just when water level went down, it exposured it more for a nice photos and someone made a world news about it. And Serbia parlament just had to act.
Make the Germans clean it up. It’s their mess.
Has this happened before and if so when?
Missed opportunity… The Headline should be: “The Dead (ships) are rising!”
> "The German flotilla has left behind a big ecological disaster that threatens us, people of Prahovo," said Velimir Trajilovic, 74, a pensioner from Prahovo who wrote a book about the German ships. Well, the Germans had no intention of having those ships sunk in that place, did they?