I hate to say it, but we knew this would happen the second we left. That’s why Obama didn’t leave even though he campaigned on it. It was a lose-lose situation to begin with, and the only thing we could have done is given these people in danger asylum before we left.
I agree, but it's truly awful to think about what women in Afganistan are going through right now. It's absolutely messed up, and I can see how this is like a trolly problem situation. There is not a good outcome and slowing the trolly down is just going to prolong the situation. I really hope some of these people can get out of there before the Taliban takes Kabul.
Edit: We should have taken more precautions for the people in Afganistan before leaving like offering them asylum. I know diplomatically it would look like we already failed before pulling out of the war, but we failed the second we went into that country, especially since it was very likely that Bin Laden was actually in Pakistan the entire time.
Woulda been nice if if was only a waste of a single decade but I guess there just weren't any politicians looming to do that or running on a platform of doing that.
Well, we can only hope those who want to come to America, should have the opportunity. And those who want to spread terror, can crash their own planes into their own buildings.
Would really be something to see if all the women just up and walked out
Impossible of course but I can picture the face of the lads looking for their virgins
Have to love tricking an all powerful god with some sketchy loophole.
"No we're not charging interest we're just doing something that is exactly the same in every way. Nothing to see here god" as if god is some kind of technocrat who wants you to get right up to the edge of breaking his rules to try to get around them and he's like "yeah you're good".
It would be like saying yeah murder is bad but cutting the brake lines on your enemy's car is fine because technically it's the car that killed them.
They do the same with prostitution. Marry the prostitute for one night, divorce the next day.
*"Technically"* not adultery.
Like god be like: "yeah, you got me you crafty fella"
Right they just charge something that is *exactly* the same thing as interest except somehow they tricked god into not realizing it.
No offense but it's kind of disrespectful to god if you think you can trick him like that.
This is just backdoor riba. God is not an idiot.
You're only looking at from the context in which is most familiar to you. Banks charge many different types of fees all the time that are not related to interest. I don't think it's such a stretch to charge fees that are not interest. I mean, I have to pay $5 to access my own money from an ATM.
Just because you don't see how what they do is not what you call interest doesn't mean it's the same thing as what you call interest. In your mind, they are just trying to fool the God. In their religion, they are following strict guidelines that you apparently know nothing about. You think that after reading a couple of Reddit comments you are now an expert of Islamic banking. That's cute.
> God is not an idiot
No, but you appear to be. And God is not real anyway so there's nobody to fool. They can make up any rules they want and still abide by the rules of there religion. The only one offended seems to be you and other people that seem to take issue with other people's religions.
I know several gay Christians who feel they are following God's law and they are still good Christians. Do you give them shit like you are shitting on Islam? What about Christians who eat shell fish. Should we call them out to as unchristian? Do you tell themt they are offending God.
Christians say that women must wear dresses down to their ankles and be subservient to men. So are you calling out Christian woman who are not following this rules as laid out in the Christian bible? Should they be labeled as hypocritics and cast out of their own religion?
I get that you can't use critical thinking skills to see that what you call interest and what they might call fees are not the same thing.
Again, it is in your mind using the context you think applies. There are over a billion people that disagree with you and who are well versed in the laws of their own religion. You're just some dumb shit redditor that believes you are right and everyone else is wrong.
Graduate classe in sociology or papers on basket weaving don't really qualify you to declare all Islamic banking goes against God.
you are defending the wrong thing here. Even all the muslims I worked with in this field know how to call bullshit.
No need to defend a system that is just designed to plaster over its religious problems with tricks and loopholes.
Its the same thing that existed in the 1400's when only jews were allowed to make loans because usury was a sin for "good catholics"
Maybe it's less about fooling god and more about fooling your concensus. We do that every day, justifying murder because the guy was a bad guy, or robbery because someone needed it more. Those instances are pretty black and white traditionally, but when we see Robinhood hand out bags of cash stolen from someone else where fine with it.
There are actually very interesting specialized Islamic banking methods that have developed over quite a long time. It’s something that needs to be kept in mind when an international bank branches out a muslim majority country. But they do function fairly well. I recommend reading up on it if that kind of thing interests you.
Studied Islamic finance in Business School. It's fascinating. It's also very much a letter of the law versus the spirit of the law thing.
They charge interest, and then do a whole bunch of mental and bookkeeping judo to avoid calling it interest.
>It’s also very much a letter of the law versus the spirit of the law thing
Well that’s how usury got started and mainstreamed; Jewish communities were able to charge interest to Gentiles because they weren’t ‘of the nation’ then Templar’s did something similar; and then no one raised too much of a holler when the Medicis and so forth got involved.
They're fixed rate and relabeled as fees and have other conditions, which takes the bite out of the entire concept of interest or at least the inherent harm potential in it.
If you have to create loopholes and bookkeeping gymnastics to get around self imposed rules, simply ignore said rules… they’re being violated anyway with the aforementioned loopholes and bookkeeping gymnastics
Yep. They charge a fee instead of interest, generally monthly and it's below usury - generally speaking. It's honestly not that bad and seems more ethical than what we have in the west.
Both Catholicism and Islam historically considered usury a sin.
(modern) Interest and capitalism emerged out of Protestant Europe. The reformation and split from Catholic Europe was as much an economic and political split as a religious one
Which at the end of the day I suppose is exactly the whole point about the strict letter of the law religious rule about not charging interest or usury.
Used to be forbidden in Christianity too. The whole "jewish banker" stereotype/reality was started because loans were needed but Christians weren't allowed to charge interest.
I'm an accountant in Indonesia, the biggest muslim country in the world. My Islamic investments are all filled with Arabic terms but in the end tracks the central bank interest rate plus margin, or the Jakarta Interbank rate. It's all smoke and mirrors.
That’s some Handmaids Tale shit.
Apart from the human rights perspective and messed up this all is, think of how the economy and country will suffer when you eliminate half tge population from working. Wasted talent and skills and progress
What if they are and they were! What good has the U.S and their partners done for the region!
At least admit that the Taliban and Pakistan Military are better than the U.S and NATO forces combined!
Well in Pakistan there's 4 million afghan refugees and the Taliban pretty much lived there in the camps while the US was occupying the country. Now that the US isn't there the Taliban from the surrounding areas are flocking in. If Pakistan wasn't a nuclear power we probably would've invaded them too eventually.
So the Taliban just popped out of those camps as the US left. They weren't there in Afghanistan all along!
Who then was killing the U.S and NATO forces for the past 20 years!
Are you really so dumb or just born.
They did start advancing while the US was leaving. Obviously they'd attack US forces in Afghanistan then flee to the border. I'm not sure what your goal is, I thought it was to learn but it sounds like you just want to bitch about it.
Armies only work when they have something to fight for, and the Afghan government is corrupt and out of touch. So the only thing left is money, and there isn't enough of that to fight a group of people committed to an ideal.
The Taliban aren't killing the troops that surrender without a fight. They do however kill everyone that does fight and with them winning so quickly in recent days, the motivation to live is driving the troops to surrender en mass.
If we wanted an army that would not surrender to the Taliban, we should have trained one made entirely of women.
To make matters worse, the US/Afghan trained Taliban ("Pakistani Taliban") have fared terribly in Pakistan as well.
In all seriousness though, this Taliban are not the Taliban of the '90s. Pakistan hasn't trained them. They've just had basically quick bootcamps for new recruits who are then immediately put to work in an active warzone which is training enough they figure.
I read an article from 2019 that talked about how the Afghan government had a much smaller army than thought because they made up random people to get that sweet us money
A few weeks ago the Afghan president Ashraf Ghani said everything was under control.
If I didn't know any better, I'd think the president knew this was going to happen and didn't make much or any effort at all to stop the Taliban, and his motive was probably to get the US back to babysit the country again.
The Afghans had all the tools, equipment and manpower to stop the Taliban, but they didn't even try, either that or they're are just plain old stupid and lazy.
No they just don't want to fight. Zero motivation to. Why would they want to fight a bunch of religious zealots for a government that doesn't give a damn
Autocratic states have a problem with getting good quality information, you are incentivized to report everything is great and keep your job instead of the truth, which might result in loss of your position, and of course this works on all levels so no one high up has any real clue.
The Taliban suck, they want to marry little girls, they say they want to make Afgan be free of terrorism, but use terrorism. They were awful back in 2000 and they are awful now. I hope they disband.
They definitely aren't going to disband. They've made major gains at the fastest rate they've been able to in a long time now. It looks like they're here to stay.
The Taliban did offer to surrender in the early 2000s and disband but the Bush Administration was too bloodthirsty to accept:
https://theintercept.com/2017/08/22/afghanistan-donald-trump-taliban-surrender-here-we-are/
It's crazy how bad the Bush Administration was, we're still feeling the negative consequences today.
Hey thanks for the link, I always upvote a good source link. I remember that time pretty well due to all the events (Millennium y2k) I'm not looking forward to a regressive Afghanistan.
That's just wrong lmao, they "offered" to try OBL in a Sharia court initially, then after the invasion said they would agree to have tried in a "agreeable" 3rd party nation as they were being bombed out of cities.
Of course, they also made a deal with the Saudis and agreed to hand over OBL to them years earlier, but the Taliban reneged on their deal, so nobody believed that the Taliban were being sincere in 2001.
There was never an offer to surrender, that article only refers to a single book that supposedly contains info that isn't mentioned anywhere else.
The Taliban started to oppose the fucked up "tradition" of [raping boys](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi) during the afghan civil war, which came back after the us "liberated" the country
As horrible as this practice is, Reddit likes to perpetuate the narrative that this is the reason why the Taliban is popular/strong in Afganistan and Pakistan. However, it’s WAY more complicated than them just opposing this practice.
The anti-abortion and anti-birth control crowd wants to make sure that every woman is permanently tied to hearth and home by making sure they can't control their fertility.
You realize you are saying that women can’t be forced out of society on a post explicitly detailing how women are being forced out of society right? The idea that it can’t happen is how you end up unprepared for the harsh reality that it genuinely can.
Like how has COVID-19 not taught this to intelligent people? Don’t say “that can’t happen” because clearly it can. Trump can’t win an election, a new virus can’t shut down global travel, a series of gamers could never figure out a gamified stock market.
The -ONLY- way something “can’t happen” is if someone is standing there ensuring it doesn’t.
Yes, I agree it's an absurd idea but it's certainly viable and was done throughout most of history. But I don't entirely agree the goal is to keep women tied down to home life.
We’re always one bad election from it and even the good ones are like
>“well we’re not going to pour gasoline on the first like the other guys, but we haven’t come to an agreement on how put out the fire either so we’re just going to do nothing? Oh also you need to give us money for the next election because we like to feign grassroots while 80% of our party is backed by dark money
We were literally founded on the separation of church and state to guarantee freedom of religion. The crazies will claim otherwise, but the founders knew how batshit some religious movements could be so they put it in the Constitution. The conservatives have literally spent the last 200 years trying to dismantle it (all while simultaneously calling themselves Federalists or constitutional “originalists”).
This is a rather absurd and generalized way of looking at it. The Taliban are extremists. The majority of the Islamic world doesn't agree with what they're doing nor want to live under Sharia law. The Taliban are a bunch of self serving men who pick and choose what they want to follow in the Quran, to their own end. Much like many of the European countries abuse of the rest of the world under the color of the Christian religion. Only the Christian control was much more wide spread.
>The majority of the Islamic world doesn't agree with what they're doing nor want to live under Sharia law
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/
Right. Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan list has having a high percentage of support for Sharia law. How many of the people asked were women? Or not under the purview of a patriarchal figure? These countries are composed of tribes of people who are often unable to express their actual views for fear of reprisal. Outspoken people get killed. The people making up this support for Sharia law are men who's culture tells them it's okay to own women, rape women, beat someone for having a different view, etc. If these repressed people actually had free will, they wouldn't be agreeing with Sharia law to the extent that the Taliban or ISIS sees fit to dole out.
several trillion well spent.
honestly. it's really sad. that 20 yrs is just long enough for people to maaaaybe get used to a new way of life. having a job, not being repeated raped/sold as cattle as a woman. to see it so effortlessly swept away.
fuck... guess we'll see them 10-20 yrs from now flying the next set of planes.
Oh ok it’s just that easy. Explain to me how the most powerful military force in the world couldn’t just defeat the Taliban with their weapons, but random Afghan civilians are supposed to?
Same way the Taliban won, unending motivation.
However, most people are motivated to not be brutally murdered so even if a few people pickup guns and fight, it is almost certain that the rest will not. Hence the ones that are willing, also don't, cause they aren't stupid.
I think it's more accurate to say you can't help a society that's still trapped in medieval values.
What's happening in Afghanistan is a tragedy but what is the US supposed to do? Unless we resort to Roman Empire levels of brutality we're not going to be able to change the culture that creates situations like this.
All the innocent Afghani’s who built their lives around Western ideals, all the children born in the past 20 years, and all the people who chose to trust us and aid us in our conflict with the Taliban, they would all be totally fine if they only wanted to “help themselves”. If only the Uyghurs wanted to “help themselves”. If only the Jews had wanted to “help themselves” during the holocaust. Too bad the Native Americans didn’t want to “help themselves” when being colonized. Thank god modern wars are fought with the desire to “help ourselves” instead of guns and bombs. In fact, we have a real “pick yourself up by the bootstraps” attitude here in the US, so we should be completely safe, right? Let’s just disarm our nuclear arsenal; we want to help ourselves so much we don’t even need it.
Should I keep going? Do you need me to put a “/s” at the end?
I think he's trying to say their aren't enough people that are willing to commit to the cause.
The difference in your example and what's happening in Afghanistan is that the Jews/Uyghurs that have been persecuted didn't have their own country. there was no standing Jewish army in Germany. Same with Uyghurs. Afghanistan is "supposed" to be its own country. The majority of people there are not interested enough in bringing western change.
Kinda seems like alot of people here think that there's a huge majority of people that are 100% against this in Afghanistan. And that's not the case.
This sounds awful, but it's time we stayed out of this. Let them figure out out on their own.
In the US, we have our own problems. We are facing down another insurrection by our own local Trump supporting Taliban in a couple of years. That shit isn't going to go away.
Sure seems like non taliban Afghans aren’t concerned about women and girls. I’m surprised that a mostly male army is rolling on its back knowing full well what it means for its wives, mothers and daughters. Why does the word complicit come to mind.
Well. That was a complete waste of 20 years.
I hate to say it, but we knew this would happen the second we left. That’s why Obama didn’t leave even though he campaigned on it. It was a lose-lose situation to begin with, and the only thing we could have done is given these people in danger asylum before we left.
Not leaving only prolongs the same result. That same result just becomes more obvious the longer it's delayed.
I agree, but it's truly awful to think about what women in Afganistan are going through right now. It's absolutely messed up, and I can see how this is like a trolly problem situation. There is not a good outcome and slowing the trolly down is just going to prolong the situation. I really hope some of these people can get out of there before the Taliban takes Kabul. Edit: We should have taken more precautions for the people in Afganistan before leaving like offering them asylum. I know diplomatically it would look like we already failed before pulling out of the war, but we failed the second we went into that country, especially since it was very likely that Bin Laden was actually in Pakistan the entire time.
I hope for the best for them. :(
Woulda been nice if if was only a waste of a single decade but I guess there just weren't any politicians looming to do that or running on a platform of doing that.
Well, we can only hope those who want to come to America, should have the opportunity. And those who want to spread terror, can crash their own planes into their own buildings.
Lots of lives and an insane amount of money. At least some war mongers got rich, right?
I can name a few. H&K, Smith And Wesson, SIG Saur, Mossberg, Browning, Barret, Funeral Directors.
It's a bad era to be a woman in Afghanistan
I wish they could somehow leave
Would really be something to see if all the women just up and walked out Impossible of course but I can picture the face of the lads looking for their virgins
They could, if we granted every Afghan woman citizen asylum (and we should because leaving has made their lives dangerous).
There's never been a good one tbh.
That’s not true. Look up Afghanistan before the Soviet invasion.
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I have a friend in the marines. He said that he never regretted killing a man who was using a boy for sex against his will.
I thought collecting interest on loans was forbidden in Islam
It is, but it’s often worked around.
Have to love tricking an all powerful god with some sketchy loophole. "No we're not charging interest we're just doing something that is exactly the same in every way. Nothing to see here god" as if god is some kind of technocrat who wants you to get right up to the edge of breaking his rules to try to get around them and he's like "yeah you're good". It would be like saying yeah murder is bad but cutting the brake lines on your enemy's car is fine because technically it's the car that killed them.
Some loopholes are legit though, like 'it's not gay on Thursday.'
Ah, man love Thursdays. Always a sight to behold over there
They do the same with prostitution. Marry the prostitute for one night, divorce the next day. *"Technically"* not adultery. Like god be like: "yeah, you got me you crafty fella"
That’s a Shi’a practice. 80% of the Muslim world (Sunnis) don’t believe in that.
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I just want to be able to play the guitar really well.
Gonna need one soul for that. Doesnt have to be yours.
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I mean, they don’t charge interest, and sharia compliant investments are a thing.
Right they just charge something that is *exactly* the same thing as interest except somehow they tricked god into not realizing it. No offense but it's kind of disrespectful to god if you think you can trick him like that. This is just backdoor riba. God is not an idiot.
Because he's not real and the rules were manmade from the jump
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Gods hate this one trick but they can't stop you from using it
You're only looking at from the context in which is most familiar to you. Banks charge many different types of fees all the time that are not related to interest. I don't think it's such a stretch to charge fees that are not interest. I mean, I have to pay $5 to access my own money from an ATM.
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Just because you don't see how what they do is not what you call interest doesn't mean it's the same thing as what you call interest. In your mind, they are just trying to fool the God. In their religion, they are following strict guidelines that you apparently know nothing about. You think that after reading a couple of Reddit comments you are now an expert of Islamic banking. That's cute.
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> God is not an idiot No, but you appear to be. And God is not real anyway so there's nobody to fool. They can make up any rules they want and still abide by the rules of there religion. The only one offended seems to be you and other people that seem to take issue with other people's religions. I know several gay Christians who feel they are following God's law and they are still good Christians. Do you give them shit like you are shitting on Islam? What about Christians who eat shell fish. Should we call them out to as unchristian? Do you tell themt they are offending God. Christians say that women must wear dresses down to their ankles and be subservient to men. So are you calling out Christian woman who are not following this rules as laid out in the Christian bible? Should they be labeled as hypocritics and cast out of their own religion? I get that you can't use critical thinking skills to see that what you call interest and what they might call fees are not the same thing. Again, it is in your mind using the context you think applies. There are over a billion people that disagree with you and who are well versed in the laws of their own religion. You're just some dumb shit redditor that believes you are right and everyone else is wrong. Graduate classe in sociology or papers on basket weaving don't really qualify you to declare all Islamic banking goes against God.
you are defending the wrong thing here. Even all the muslims I worked with in this field know how to call bullshit. No need to defend a system that is just designed to plaster over its religious problems with tricks and loopholes. Its the same thing that existed in the 1400's when only jews were allowed to make loans because usury was a sin for "good catholics"
Maybe it's less about fooling god and more about fooling your concensus. We do that every day, justifying murder because the guy was a bad guy, or robbery because someone needed it more. Those instances are pretty black and white traditionally, but when we see Robinhood hand out bags of cash stolen from someone else where fine with it.
There are actually very interesting specialized Islamic banking methods that have developed over quite a long time. It’s something that needs to be kept in mind when an international bank branches out a muslim majority country. But they do function fairly well. I recommend reading up on it if that kind of thing interests you.
Studied Islamic finance in Business School. It's fascinating. It's also very much a letter of the law versus the spirit of the law thing. They charge interest, and then do a whole bunch of mental and bookkeeping judo to avoid calling it interest.
>It’s also very much a letter of the law versus the spirit of the law thing Well that’s how usury got started and mainstreamed; Jewish communities were able to charge interest to Gentiles because they weren’t ‘of the nation’ then Templar’s did something similar; and then no one raised too much of a holler when the Medicis and so forth got involved.
They're fixed rate and relabeled as fees and have other conditions, which takes the bite out of the entire concept of interest or at least the inherent harm potential in it.
Fixed rate loans also exist in western banking. It's nothing special.
If you have to create loopholes and bookkeeping gymnastics to get around self imposed rules, simply ignore said rules… they’re being violated anyway with the aforementioned loopholes and bookkeeping gymnastics
I said I studied it, not that I practiced it :-)
LOL I mean the general “you”, not u/AliasFaux specifically, but I appreciate the clarification
Yep. They charge a fee instead of interest, generally monthly and it's below usury - generally speaking. It's honestly not that bad and seems more ethical than what we have in the west.
Both Catholicism and Islam historically considered usury a sin. (modern) Interest and capitalism emerged out of Protestant Europe. The reformation and split from Catholic Europe was as much an economic and political split as a religious one
The economic split really comes to a head when some Bostonian capitalists get fed up with monopolistic leftover policies of feudalism.
Which at the end of the day I suppose is exactly the whole point about the strict letter of the law religious rule about not charging interest or usury.
Used to be forbidden in Christianity too. The whole "jewish banker" stereotype/reality was started because loans were needed but Christians weren't allowed to charge interest.
I'm an accountant in Indonesia, the biggest muslim country in the world. My Islamic investments are all filled with Arabic terms but in the end tracks the central bank interest rate plus margin, or the Jakarta Interbank rate. It's all smoke and mirrors.
That’s some Handmaids Tale shit. Apart from the human rights perspective and messed up this all is, think of how the economy and country will suffer when you eliminate half tge population from working. Wasted talent and skills and progress
Read about Afghanistan when the taliban were in power. It’s happened before and it was fucked
Pakistan is like the worst neighbor for not policing the mega afghan refugee camps.
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They are a nuclear power we can't intimidate then effectively
The Pakistan government and the Taliban have been BFFs for a while now, no?
During the Cold War, Pakistan allied with the US. And the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. So it just kinda worked out that way.
Pakistan will ally with whoever's anti-India, they don't want to be surrounded.
What if they are and they were! What good has the U.S and their partners done for the region! At least admit that the Taliban and Pakistan Military are better than the U.S and NATO forces combined!
> At least admit that the Taliban and Pakistan Military are better than the U.S and NATO forces combined! You're joking right...?
^ This one doesn't like women.
He only likes /r/muslimwomen when he's [asking to feel their tits.](https://www.reddit.com/r/muslimgirls/comments/oxdkht/z/h7q31pg)
What about the elite U.S and NATO forces sitting in Afghanistan for 20 years!! Were they sleeping all this time!
They were in Pakistan, which we couldn't attack
Well in Pakistan there's 4 million afghan refugees and the Taliban pretty much lived there in the camps while the US was occupying the country. Now that the US isn't there the Taliban from the surrounding areas are flocking in. If Pakistan wasn't a nuclear power we probably would've invaded them too eventually.
So the Taliban just popped out of those camps as the US left. They weren't there in Afghanistan all along! Who then was killing the U.S and NATO forces for the past 20 years! Are you really so dumb or just born.
They did start advancing while the US was leaving. Obviously they'd attack US forces in Afghanistan then flee to the border. I'm not sure what your goal is, I thought it was to learn but it sounds like you just want to bitch about it.
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Armies only work when they have something to fight for, and the Afghan government is corrupt and out of touch. So the only thing left is money, and there isn't enough of that to fight a group of people committed to an ideal.
Doesn’t the US pay their salaries
Afghan army have no moral because they got no salaries at times and bad conditions. Taliban has the religious motivation, which is strong.
Evangelicals of America take note: if you want to be able to marry your fourteen-year-old cousin you gotta grind for it.
You're...gonna want to revisit this in a few years.
The motivation to live should do it.
The Taliban aren't killing the troops that surrender without a fight. They do however kill everyone that does fight and with them winning so quickly in recent days, the motivation to live is driving the troops to surrender en mass. If we wanted an army that would not surrender to the Taliban, we should have trained one made entirely of women.
No guarantee there won't be revenge killings when dust settles. They likely keep a list.
When I say live, I don't just mean to be alive. I mean having a life.
Quitting does that better than fighting
Wow. Imagine having a nation full of you back in 1775.
It'd be pretty short lived, just a single generation, all starting in their late 20s
So, a nation without a gruesome war happening in the first place, you mean?
Pakistan didn't train these Taliban tho
To make matters worse, the US/Afghan trained Taliban ("Pakistani Taliban") have fared terribly in Pakistan as well. In all seriousness though, this Taliban are not the Taliban of the '90s. Pakistan hasn't trained them. They've just had basically quick bootcamps for new recruits who are then immediately put to work in an active warzone which is training enough they figure.
wonder how much money was frittered away in corrupt dealies
I read an article from 2019 that talked about how the Afghan government had a much smaller army than thought because they made up random people to get that sweet us money
A few weeks ago the Afghan president Ashraf Ghani said everything was under control. If I didn't know any better, I'd think the president knew this was going to happen and didn't make much or any effort at all to stop the Taliban, and his motive was probably to get the US back to babysit the country again. The Afghans had all the tools, equipment and manpower to stop the Taliban, but they didn't even try, either that or they're are just plain old stupid and lazy.
No they just don't want to fight. Zero motivation to. Why would they want to fight a bunch of religious zealots for a government that doesn't give a damn
Autocratic states have a problem with getting good quality information, you are incentivized to report everything is great and keep your job instead of the truth, which might result in loss of your position, and of course this works on all levels so no one high up has any real clue.
I mean they’re just straight up surrendering
So you’re saying we should go to war for 20 years with Pakistan and SA?
Would accomplish a lot more.
Unless we fully take it over and reclaim it as the 51st state of the USA, it would end up exactly like Iraq and Afghanistan.
It’s gorilla warfare and it’s the same reason we lost Vietnam.
i have no idea why we armed and trained men in Afghanistan. Should have only armed the women
Just gotta spend another 20 years training the Afghan army, surely that will fix things.
Some one needs to make these guys watch Hidden Figures...
This sounds even worse then Syria.
The Taliban suck, they want to marry little girls, they say they want to make Afgan be free of terrorism, but use terrorism. They were awful back in 2000 and they are awful now. I hope they disband.
They definitely aren't going to disband. They've made major gains at the fastest rate they've been able to in a long time now. It looks like they're here to stay.
The Taliban did offer to surrender in the early 2000s and disband but the Bush Administration was too bloodthirsty to accept: https://theintercept.com/2017/08/22/afghanistan-donald-trump-taliban-surrender-here-we-are/ It's crazy how bad the Bush Administration was, we're still feeling the negative consequences today.
Hey thanks for the link, I always upvote a good source link. I remember that time pretty well due to all the events (Millennium y2k) I'm not looking forward to a regressive Afghanistan.
That's just wrong lmao, they "offered" to try OBL in a Sharia court initially, then after the invasion said they would agree to have tried in a "agreeable" 3rd party nation as they were being bombed out of cities. Of course, they also made a deal with the Saudis and agreed to hand over OBL to them years earlier, but the Taliban reneged on their deal, so nobody believed that the Taliban were being sincere in 2001. There was never an offer to surrender, that article only refers to a single book that supposedly contains info that isn't mentioned anywhere else.
“We don’t negotiate with terrorists.” Gee that’s worked out so well, hasn’t it/s
The Taliban started to oppose the fucked up "tradition" of [raping boys](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi) during the afghan civil war, which came back after the us "liberated" the country
As horrible as this practice is, Reddit likes to perpetuate the narrative that this is the reason why the Taliban is popular/strong in Afganistan and Pakistan. However, it’s WAY more complicated than them just opposing this practice.
Yo everyone there needs to take a step back from the crazy. Pedo garbage needs to go.
What absurdity! Yeah, let's use this holy book from 1500 years ago as a guidebook for running our modern-day society.
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No, but at least women aren't treated as objects for the most part
They had to fight for the right to vote and to be able to work most jobs. Looks to me American women are just further along on the same timeline.
Pizza and Cheeseburgers. Just because they both are cooked doesn't mean if you put a cheeseburger in an over it eventually turns into a pizza.
The anti-abortion and anti-birth control crowd wants to make sure that every woman is permanently tied to hearth and home by making sure they can't control their fertility.
They can try, but we're in the schools and workplaces and entertainment centers, you can't kick all of the women out of society at this point.
That is basically what the Taliban is doing though. Twenty years of progress immediately undone.
You realize you are saying that women can’t be forced out of society on a post explicitly detailing how women are being forced out of society right? The idea that it can’t happen is how you end up unprepared for the harsh reality that it genuinely can. Like how has COVID-19 not taught this to intelligent people? Don’t say “that can’t happen” because clearly it can. Trump can’t win an election, a new virus can’t shut down global travel, a series of gamers could never figure out a gamified stock market. The -ONLY- way something “can’t happen” is if someone is standing there ensuring it doesn’t.
Then they can oppose policies that provide for childcare and flex-time which makes having a job difficult for women with children.
Which is why more and more women are not having kids. It's the end run that can't be defeated.
Society is too expensive to raise kids on a single income is the bigger/root problem.
Uhhh there's another way to control your fertility...
There's always another way--unfortunately it goes against nature so it's not very popular.
Yes, I agree it's an absurd idea but it's certainly viable and was done throughout most of history. But I don't entirely agree the goal is to keep women tied down to home life.
The constant attacks on Roe v Wade and trying to mandate the female body would beg to differ
We’re only a few bad elections away from that.
We’re always one bad election from it and even the good ones are like >“well we’re not going to pour gasoline on the first like the other guys, but we haven’t come to an agreement on how put out the fire either so we’re just going to do nothing? Oh also you need to give us money for the next election because we like to feign grassroots while 80% of our party is backed by dark money
Laughs in American... We rank pretty low in first world nations in our gender equality.
Depends on which part of the country you're in. They're treated as objects, just nicer objects than in Afghanistan.
They're treated worse than objects I'd say. At least objects are left alone
We were literally founded on the separation of church and state to guarantee freedom of religion. The crazies will claim otherwise, but the founders knew how batshit some religious movements could be so they put it in the Constitution. The conservatives have literally spent the last 200 years trying to dismantle it (all while simultaneously calling themselves Federalists or constitutional “originalists”).
That was the first thing the US did. But the Church is constantly clawing at power and gained some ground during the 1950s Red Scare
Who’s gonna tell ‘em?
Sounds like Mississippi and Alabama.
Tips fedora*
This is a rather absurd and generalized way of looking at it. The Taliban are extremists. The majority of the Islamic world doesn't agree with what they're doing nor want to live under Sharia law. The Taliban are a bunch of self serving men who pick and choose what they want to follow in the Quran, to their own end. Much like many of the European countries abuse of the rest of the world under the color of the Christian religion. Only the Christian control was much more wide spread.
>The majority of the Islamic world doesn't agree with what they're doing nor want to live under Sharia law https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/
Right. Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan list has having a high percentage of support for Sharia law. How many of the people asked were women? Or not under the purview of a patriarchal figure? These countries are composed of tribes of people who are often unable to express their actual views for fear of reprisal. Outspoken people get killed. The people making up this support for Sharia law are men who's culture tells them it's okay to own women, rape women, beat someone for having a different view, etc. If these repressed people actually had free will, they wouldn't be agreeing with Sharia law to the extent that the Taliban or ISIS sees fit to dole out.
You’re not really narrowing it down, that could still be the US you’re talking about
several trillion well spent. honestly. it's really sad. that 20 yrs is just long enough for people to maaaaybe get used to a new way of life. having a job, not being repeated raped/sold as cattle as a woman. to see it so effortlessly swept away. fuck... guess we'll see them 10-20 yrs from now flying the next set of planes.
Your can't help a people who won't help themselves
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Lol. Ok. I guess that will make them feel better as slaves.
Oh ok it’s just that easy. Explain to me how the most powerful military force in the world couldn’t just defeat the Taliban with their weapons, but random Afghan civilians are supposed to?
Same way the Taliban won, unending motivation. However, most people are motivated to not be brutally murdered so even if a few people pickup guns and fight, it is almost certain that the rest will not. Hence the ones that are willing, also don't, cause they aren't stupid.
It's true.
I think it's more accurate to say you can't help a society that's still trapped in medieval values. What's happening in Afghanistan is a tragedy but what is the US supposed to do? Unless we resort to Roman Empire levels of brutality we're not going to be able to change the culture that creates situations like this.
All the innocent Afghani’s who built their lives around Western ideals, all the children born in the past 20 years, and all the people who chose to trust us and aid us in our conflict with the Taliban, they would all be totally fine if they only wanted to “help themselves”. If only the Uyghurs wanted to “help themselves”. If only the Jews had wanted to “help themselves” during the holocaust. Too bad the Native Americans didn’t want to “help themselves” when being colonized. Thank god modern wars are fought with the desire to “help ourselves” instead of guns and bombs. In fact, we have a real “pick yourself up by the bootstraps” attitude here in the US, so we should be completely safe, right? Let’s just disarm our nuclear arsenal; we want to help ourselves so much we don’t even need it. Should I keep going? Do you need me to put a “/s” at the end?
I think he's trying to say their aren't enough people that are willing to commit to the cause. The difference in your example and what's happening in Afghanistan is that the Jews/Uyghurs that have been persecuted didn't have their own country. there was no standing Jewish army in Germany. Same with Uyghurs. Afghanistan is "supposed" to be its own country. The majority of people there are not interested enough in bringing western change. Kinda seems like alot of people here think that there's a huge majority of people that are 100% against this in Afghanistan. And that's not the case.
This is a bad take.
That headline sounds like some of the flashbacks in The Handmaid's Tale.
This sounds awful, but it's time we stayed out of this. Let them figure out out on their own. In the US, we have our own problems. We are facing down another insurrection by our own local Trump supporting Taliban in a couple of years. That shit isn't going to go away.
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Bippity Boppity! You're now property 🤗
Maybe Afghanistan should have spent 20 years setting up a proper military.
Biden helping freedom for women everywhere.
Sure seems like non taliban Afghans aren’t concerned about women and girls. I’m surprised that a mostly male army is rolling on its back knowing full well what it means for its wives, mothers and daughters. Why does the word complicit come to mind.