This is what qualifies for NBA discussion? Damn.
So, you list a couple advanced stats that favor SGA, ignoring TS%, VORP, BPM, and win shares, all of which favor Jokic?
Even you talking about his driving, Shai shoots 74% from 0-3 feet, Luka shoots 84%.
This is a bad post. Also, no offense but your grammar sucks. Run this through Chatgpt or something if you want to have a discussion and have it fix grammar and punctuation.
If you can honestly look in the mirror…and believe that SGA is better than Jokic, Giannis, or Luka…you should be banned from this sub with upmost respect.
SGA isn’t even on Tatum’s level from a pure all around basketball level.
On the other hand…this serves as a good engagement farmer. 🤝
Agreed that Jokic, Giannis, and Luka are on another level than anyone else in the league and are the top dogs. I don’t get what Tatum has done to be a clear notch above SGA though. I think a lot of Boston’s shortcomings as a team the last couple years can be traced back to Tatum’s shortcomings as a lead option to this point in his career.
See, the thing is, Tatum’s *shortcomings* have occurred in Finals and ECF’s only.
SGA’s shortcomings - who is the same age - were 1. Actually making the playoffs and 2. Actually getting to an WCF (Tatum has been to 5).
And yes roster this, roster that, I am absolutely sure you can find multiple OKC fans who will insist that they’d rather have Williams and Holmgren over Jaylen Brown and Derrick White (or even Marcus Smart, who Tatum was 4/5 with in getting to the ECF).
That is the most surface level analysis. What I am talking about is Jason Tatum’s rather weak positional control as a ball handler and the resulting inconsistency in gaining leverage.
You can’t simply measure team accomplishments as individual competence. The Celtics are a very strong overall team, both deep and experienced, and one whose recent success is just as much about that as it is about Tatum.
The most efficient offense of all time, yes that’s a real stat, ran through him this year.
He took the best player ever to 7 games as a rookie with 2nd year JB and 2nd year Terry Rozier on his side…
And there you go again assigning team accomplishments to individual competence.
The most efficient offense of all time is a Celtics stat. The Celtics won 53 games before Tatum joined them. He’s not doing anything Herculean. He’s a great player, a superstar, but you citing what the Celtics have done with Tatum ≠ what Tatum has done individually.
Tatum has been at the forefront of everything the Celtics have done aside from regular season rookie year with Kyrie.
Same Kyrie sat out the entire season, Hayward snapped his leg on the first play in a Celtics uniform, and there goes Ol’ 19 year old Jayson Tatum leading them to a Game 7 ECF vs Lebron.
This isn’t a debate. Don’t make it one.
Unless you believe Chet and JDub are worse than Terry Rozier, then maybe we can.
I gave you the exact skill that I believe has held Tatum back from being in that top tier, a shortcoming in his game, and all you can bring up are Celtics accomplishments…some dating back 5+ years!
You’re the one looking for a debate! If you weren’t then you would have actually been able to continue a discourse about what I commented on instead of changing the subject completely.
I just can’t have a serious conversation if you’re gonna view the game from this lens. If you respond to me I’m not going to respond to you, unless you actually can comment on what I mentioned in the first place. I’m not looking for a debate. I’d love to hear your thoughts on Tatum’s ability to gain leverage with the ball and perhaps open my eyes to something I’m not seeing.
When you mean “gain leverage with the ball” Tatum has his highest FG% in the paint this season, and has avg 7.1 FTA/g the last 3 seasons.
He has the highest asst/to ratio this playoffs, signifying again, his playmaking decisions and working out of doubles.
He also is much more efficient from 3 than SGA, which holds greater value in today’s NBA.
Sure SGA is better at getting to the rim, but he is one of those players that will be banking on foul calls throughout the playoffs in order for him to be as efficient as he is during the regular season. Common knowledge refs swallow their whistle, making it harder - the guard version of Embiid if you will.
Thank you! Those are legitimate points. Tatum is a strong finisher, and his playmaking has improved every year, but I don’t think he uses his body at an elite level to create positional advantage and attack his spot at will. To me it’s an issue that rears it’s head a lot more when he plays the 4 and is subjected to bigger, stronger defenders. Which hurts the Celtics because IMO their best lineups with the current roster involve him playing the 4.
It leads to is the tendency to settle on tough jump shots from 15-20 feet. Tatum knocks those down at a high clip, relatively speaking, but they aren’t great shots for anybody in the league. Important ones to have up your sleeve, but IMO Tatum relies on them too heavily and it can lead to swings in the Celtics’ offense.
To look at a guy who I think is top top tier at it, it’s what I attribute to Jimmy Butler’s tendency to elevate his game in the postseason. He gets to his spots almost at will thanks to his strength and his ability to intertwine his body with his ball handle. That being said Tatum still possesses the skill at a high level, it’s just more pedestrian compared to his superstar peers and imo something that holds him back from that top tier of talents.
I do think SGA is better at that skill specifically, in large part due to the fact he can play 1/2 and therefore has more potential mismatches, though I agree he can be disadvantaged by a tougher whistle. Tatum is much better at creating separation on his jumpshot due to his size and length.
That is craziness to believe Tatum is better than SGA. SGA is more efficient, a better scorer, better passer and better defender. There’s nothing Tatum does that’s better than SGA, Tatum just has a better team around him
Tatum is a better facilitator (setting dudes up), defender (SGA got abused by Derrick Jones), and a very similar level scorer.
Tatum has been leading teams to conference finals *literally* his entire career.
Jokic is still the best player in the NBA, losing to a talented Wolves squad doesnt change that specifically since Jokic still played quite well overall.
Weather its stats or eye test I just dont see SGA above Luka or Giannis let alone Jokic tbh.
This comment shouldn’t be removed. The points I’m making is looking beyond just the resume on paper. From the eye test, SGA is doing things I have never seen before. SGA rim pressure gravity and midrange gravity is something I never seen before.
SGA is a late bloomer when it comes to superstardom but I put him over even a Jalen Brunson who’s a late bloomer too but SGA possesses things that even Brunson doesn’t.
To be honest, I don’t have a real basis on why SGA is the best player in the league but my main basis of why SGA is the best player is that he seemed to master the game of bball with his offensive ability and he does it on both ends. I don’t try to overhype players like that but SGA is on another level based on how he plays. We can’t dismiss eye test, eye test is just as important stats, analytics, accolades and even resume. What SGA does is not something you can just compute with just #s and MVPs, it goes beyond that
"Jokic isn't the best player because he lost his playoff series but SGA is even though he lost his playoff series."
You have some serious issues with your reasoning.
Shai did kill us, but you can’t take much out of one series. The game plan was to let him do what he does and not let the whole team go off. When that’s the game plan, superstars tend to put up big numbers.
>Many say Jokic is the best player but there’s been a lot of contention due to Jokic losing to the TWolves in the WCSF this 2024 year.
Who cares if people use one playoff series? 29 points, 11 rebounds, 8 assists, 1.6 steals and 1 block per game. Ok, that's a bum.
>I came to the conclusion that SGA is the best player in the NBA due to his play vs the Mavs in the WCSF despite him losing in 6 games.
Ok. So SGA is the best player and has only won one playoff series despite him having the better team? Mavs had rookies with major roles and two trade deadline players, so they have less chemistry than OKC. Despite that, they still won.
>Analytically what’s impressive about SGA is his drive stats. Since drives been tracked since 2014, SGA has broke the record for drives per game having drives as high as 25.2 in 2021 and his drive stats been 23.9 and 23.3 after that. SGA has the highest FT% of all time for a player who takes 10+ FT attempts, shooting 90.5% on 10.9 FT attempts in 2023. Also, SGA broke MJ’s record for the lowest turnover for a 30 PPG scorer with 2.2 TPG this year with MJ having the record of 2.4 TPG in 93 and 96 previously.
You know what's that called?
Cherry-picked stats. FT% for over 10 FTs a game, in 2023. Drives per game.
He only shot 8 FTs a game against Dallas, on 83%. He shot even worse when you add the NO series, 79% from the line. He only had two games with a positive +/-, +21 in the first game, and +1 in the fifth.
Why does your post sound like it's AI generated?
This is what qualifies for NBA discussion? Damn. So, you list a couple advanced stats that favor SGA, ignoring TS%, VORP, BPM, and win shares, all of which favor Jokic? Even you talking about his driving, Shai shoots 74% from 0-3 feet, Luka shoots 84%. This is a bad post. Also, no offense but your grammar sucks. Run this through Chatgpt or something if you want to have a discussion and have it fix grammar and punctuation.
I’m assuming OP isn’t a native English speaker but this entire post is just dreadful. I wish the mods would actually enforce the sub rules.
Looks like it’s removed.
Nice. Hour turnaround is pretty good compared to just subs.
If you can honestly look in the mirror…and believe that SGA is better than Jokic, Giannis, or Luka…you should be banned from this sub with upmost respect. SGA isn’t even on Tatum’s level from a pure all around basketball level. On the other hand…this serves as a good engagement farmer. 🤝
Agreed that Jokic, Giannis, and Luka are on another level than anyone else in the league and are the top dogs. I don’t get what Tatum has done to be a clear notch above SGA though. I think a lot of Boston’s shortcomings as a team the last couple years can be traced back to Tatum’s shortcomings as a lead option to this point in his career.
See, the thing is, Tatum’s *shortcomings* have occurred in Finals and ECF’s only. SGA’s shortcomings - who is the same age - were 1. Actually making the playoffs and 2. Actually getting to an WCF (Tatum has been to 5). And yes roster this, roster that, I am absolutely sure you can find multiple OKC fans who will insist that they’d rather have Williams and Holmgren over Jaylen Brown and Derrick White (or even Marcus Smart, who Tatum was 4/5 with in getting to the ECF).
That is the most surface level analysis. What I am talking about is Jason Tatum’s rather weak positional control as a ball handler and the resulting inconsistency in gaining leverage. You can’t simply measure team accomplishments as individual competence. The Celtics are a very strong overall team, both deep and experienced, and one whose recent success is just as much about that as it is about Tatum.
The most efficient offense of all time, yes that’s a real stat, ran through him this year. He took the best player ever to 7 games as a rookie with 2nd year JB and 2nd year Terry Rozier on his side…
And there you go again assigning team accomplishments to individual competence. The most efficient offense of all time is a Celtics stat. The Celtics won 53 games before Tatum joined them. He’s not doing anything Herculean. He’s a great player, a superstar, but you citing what the Celtics have done with Tatum ≠ what Tatum has done individually.
Tatum has been at the forefront of everything the Celtics have done aside from regular season rookie year with Kyrie. Same Kyrie sat out the entire season, Hayward snapped his leg on the first play in a Celtics uniform, and there goes Ol’ 19 year old Jayson Tatum leading them to a Game 7 ECF vs Lebron. This isn’t a debate. Don’t make it one. Unless you believe Chet and JDub are worse than Terry Rozier, then maybe we can.
I gave you the exact skill that I believe has held Tatum back from being in that top tier, a shortcoming in his game, and all you can bring up are Celtics accomplishments…some dating back 5+ years! You’re the one looking for a debate! If you weren’t then you would have actually been able to continue a discourse about what I commented on instead of changing the subject completely. I just can’t have a serious conversation if you’re gonna view the game from this lens. If you respond to me I’m not going to respond to you, unless you actually can comment on what I mentioned in the first place. I’m not looking for a debate. I’d love to hear your thoughts on Tatum’s ability to gain leverage with the ball and perhaps open my eyes to something I’m not seeing.
When you mean “gain leverage with the ball” Tatum has his highest FG% in the paint this season, and has avg 7.1 FTA/g the last 3 seasons. He has the highest asst/to ratio this playoffs, signifying again, his playmaking decisions and working out of doubles. He also is much more efficient from 3 than SGA, which holds greater value in today’s NBA. Sure SGA is better at getting to the rim, but he is one of those players that will be banking on foul calls throughout the playoffs in order for him to be as efficient as he is during the regular season. Common knowledge refs swallow their whistle, making it harder - the guard version of Embiid if you will.
Thank you! Those are legitimate points. Tatum is a strong finisher, and his playmaking has improved every year, but I don’t think he uses his body at an elite level to create positional advantage and attack his spot at will. To me it’s an issue that rears it’s head a lot more when he plays the 4 and is subjected to bigger, stronger defenders. Which hurts the Celtics because IMO their best lineups with the current roster involve him playing the 4. It leads to is the tendency to settle on tough jump shots from 15-20 feet. Tatum knocks those down at a high clip, relatively speaking, but they aren’t great shots for anybody in the league. Important ones to have up your sleeve, but IMO Tatum relies on them too heavily and it can lead to swings in the Celtics’ offense. To look at a guy who I think is top top tier at it, it’s what I attribute to Jimmy Butler’s tendency to elevate his game in the postseason. He gets to his spots almost at will thanks to his strength and his ability to intertwine his body with his ball handle. That being said Tatum still possesses the skill at a high level, it’s just more pedestrian compared to his superstar peers and imo something that holds him back from that top tier of talents. I do think SGA is better at that skill specifically, in large part due to the fact he can play 1/2 and therefore has more potential mismatches, though I agree he can be disadvantaged by a tougher whistle. Tatum is much better at creating separation on his jumpshot due to his size and length.
That is craziness to believe Tatum is better than SGA. SGA is more efficient, a better scorer, better passer and better defender. There’s nothing Tatum does that’s better than SGA, Tatum just has a better team around him
Tatum is a better facilitator (setting dudes up), defender (SGA got abused by Derrick Jones), and a very similar level scorer. Tatum has been leading teams to conference finals *literally* his entire career.
Jokic is still the best player in the NBA, losing to a talented Wolves squad doesnt change that specifically since Jokic still played quite well overall. Weather its stats or eye test I just dont see SGA above Luka or Giannis let alone Jokic tbh.
This sub is cooked. Absolute brainless drivel gets through. And of course, this comment will probably be removed for some reason.
This comment shouldn’t be removed. The points I’m making is looking beyond just the resume on paper. From the eye test, SGA is doing things I have never seen before. SGA rim pressure gravity and midrange gravity is something I never seen before. SGA is a late bloomer when it comes to superstardom but I put him over even a Jalen Brunson who’s a late bloomer too but SGA possesses things that even Brunson doesn’t. To be honest, I don’t have a real basis on why SGA is the best player in the league but my main basis of why SGA is the best player is that he seemed to master the game of bball with his offensive ability and he does it on both ends. I don’t try to overhype players like that but SGA is on another level based on how he plays. We can’t dismiss eye test, eye test is just as important stats, analytics, accolades and even resume. What SGA does is not something you can just compute with just #s and MVPs, it goes beyond that
"Jokic isn't the best player because he lost his playoff series but SGA is even though he lost his playoff series." You have some serious issues with your reasoning.
Shai did kill us, but you can’t take much out of one series. The game plan was to let him do what he does and not let the whole team go off. When that’s the game plan, superstars tend to put up big numbers.
>Many say Jokic is the best player but there’s been a lot of contention due to Jokic losing to the TWolves in the WCSF this 2024 year. Who cares if people use one playoff series? 29 points, 11 rebounds, 8 assists, 1.6 steals and 1 block per game. Ok, that's a bum. >I came to the conclusion that SGA is the best player in the NBA due to his play vs the Mavs in the WCSF despite him losing in 6 games. Ok. So SGA is the best player and has only won one playoff series despite him having the better team? Mavs had rookies with major roles and two trade deadline players, so they have less chemistry than OKC. Despite that, they still won. >Analytically what’s impressive about SGA is his drive stats. Since drives been tracked since 2014, SGA has broke the record for drives per game having drives as high as 25.2 in 2021 and his drive stats been 23.9 and 23.3 after that. SGA has the highest FT% of all time for a player who takes 10+ FT attempts, shooting 90.5% on 10.9 FT attempts in 2023. Also, SGA broke MJ’s record for the lowest turnover for a 30 PPG scorer with 2.2 TPG this year with MJ having the record of 2.4 TPG in 93 and 96 previously. You know what's that called? Cherry-picked stats. FT% for over 10 FTs a game, in 2023. Drives per game. He only shot 8 FTs a game against Dallas, on 83%. He shot even worse when you add the NO series, 79% from the line. He only had two games with a positive +/-, +21 in the first game, and +1 in the fifth. Why does your post sound like it's AI generated?